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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT
New Cain Accusation; Interview with Condoleezza Rice; One-on- One with Kris Jenner
Aired November 2, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, raising Cain.
HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Don't even bother asking me all of these other questions that you all are curious about, OK? Don't even bother.
MORGAN: Herman Cain facing a third accusation of sexual harassment, but more popular than ever. What really happened? Will we ever find out?
And one of the most powerful women in America, Condoleezza Rice. The ultimate Bush White House insider. Why does she say Dick Cheney attacked her integrity? Why did she threatened to resign after 9/11? And what did she really think about Moammar Gadhafi's crush on her?
Condoleezza Rice, live, and no holds barred.
This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.
Good evening. Herman Cain's campaign calls a report of a third accusation of sexual harassment an example of, quote, "baseless allegations." Meanwhile, a Republican political consultant in Oklahoma says he witnessed inappropriate behavior by Cain at the National Restaurant Association back in the '90s.
Before all this, the pressure seemed to be getting to candidate Cain to this extraordinary encounter with reporters earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me say one thing. I'm here with these doctors and that's what I'm going to talk about so don't even bother asking me all of these other questions that you all are curious about. OK? Don't even bother.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Good question, though.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you concerned about the fact that these women do want to --
CAIN: What did I say?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: -- who wants to come forward. Are you concerned about --
CAIN: Excuse me. Excuse me.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Rick Ross who was --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step aside, please.
CAIN: What part of no don't -- these people understand?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: All getting rather heated. Joining me now to try and make sense of all this is John King, anchor of "JOHN KING, USA."
John, pretty fiery stuff there with Herman Cain. And what's extraordinary is the more revelations that spill out, the better his polling seems to be.
JOHN KING, HOST, "JOHN KING, USA": Well, the most recent polling, Anderson, most of it -- Piers, excuse me, captures only the first day --
MORGAN: Did you call me Anderson, John?
KING: I did, and I'm very sorry about that. I was just watching the previous program. I'm a fan there. But --
MORGAN: That is bordering on harassment, I might add.
KING: It is. It is. It is and now you have me now. I'll have to sign an agreement and leave.
KING: The most recent polling -- we need to be careful. Captures maybe a day or two of these headlines. The new Quinnipiac Poll out tonight shows Herman Cain is still leading nationally, now -- but, again, the last day or two maybe.
We need to look at the polls in a week to 10 days because this is still coming out. You have what you mentioned the Associated Press quoting a third woman is saying when she worked at the Restaurant Association Mr. Cain did something that made her uncomfortable, made her feel that he was infringing on her rights. That's number one. Another allegation. An anonymous allegation, but still an allegation.
Tonight Gloria Borger reporting that one of the women is meeting with her attorney trying to get permission from the Restaurant Association, with whom she signed a confidentiality agreement to issue some kind of a statement, so he says the attorney she does not want to be, quote, "the next Anita Hill." I presume by that, meaning she doesn't want to do a television appearance or talk about this very much. But she does want to issue some kind of statement.
So we don't know where this is going, but we do know this. It's not over. MORGAN: Yes, let's listen to this guy, Chris Wilson. He's an Oklahoma pollster who worked with Herman Cain. He claims he saw Herman Cain harassing women. Let's just hear what he had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WILSON, FORMER POLLSTER, NATIONAL RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION: I was the pollster for the National Restaurant Association when Herman Cain was the head of it, and I'll tell you, I was actually around a couple of times when this happened, and I just -- anyone who was involved with Restaurant Association at the time knew that this was going to come up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I mean, John, is Herman Cain handling this very badly, or is it all kind of playing to his folksy, "I'm not a politician" reputation? You know, that behavior with the reporters earlier, you'd never see a conventional politician talking to them like that, and yet that is part of Herman Cain's charm, isn't it?
KING: It is. He is not a politician, and he sticks it to the establishment, and he's not afraid to stick it to the news media, although he has been very media-friendly, as you well know. You had a conversation with him that he is still trying to recover from with the abortion questions you asked him about.
But on the one hand being the anti-politician helps him. At some point, the question is, is there a cumulative effect of having things -- having crises and having conflicting accounts here. Maybe the issues aren't true. Maybe the -- the allegations were a misunderstanding. He didn't think he did anything wrong. The women thought he did. That happens sometimes in life.
But how he has handled this raises a lot of questions. That clip you just played, that would be, if credible, the first eyewitness, the first person to go on the record saying, I saw him doing things that were offensive, I saw him doing things that at least the woman could fairly assume was some sort of sexual harassment.
Again, though, this story is so complicated because you get something like that, and you say there's a witness, then we find out this witness who says he saw it at the time has a tangential political connection to Texas Governor Rick Perry.
He's working for a political action committee that is not run by Mr. Perry, but that is run by one of his former top aides and that is supporting the Perry campaign.
MORGAN: Wolf Blitzer, thank you very much. I'm only kidding.
John, thank you.
KING: Thank you, Piers.
MORGAN: Will these allegations be fatal to Herman Cain's campaign? Joining me now to debate that is Harvard Law professor and author of "America on Trial," Alan Dershowitz. And Amy Holmes, anchor of Glenn Beck's "The Blaze."
Alan Dershowitz, from a legal point of view, I guess the trigger moment for Herman Cain will be if any of the women behind these so- called harassment charges is able to come forward, identify herself, and talk publicly. How likely from a legal point of view is that, do you think?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Well, I think it's quite likely. Herman Cain is in a situation not completely of his own making, at least recently, he didn't voluntarily disclose anything or breach the agreement. Somebody else did. He obviously as a presidential candidate had to issue some kind of a statement, and the question is, does that waive the confidentiality agreement in relation to the other women?
Do they now have an opportunity to come forward and present their argument? The courts are not particularly accepting of confidentiality agreements, particularly when they involve public figures.
So if he were asking me my advice as a lawyer, just to predict what will happen, I think that these confidentiality agreements will be broken and each of the three people will have an opportunity to present their case, and then it depends on what kind of harassment it is. Was it quid pro quo, which is the worst kind, sleep with me or I'll fire you? Was it harassment of a particular individual, kind of aggressive behavior, but not physical touching?
Or was it just creating a hostile environment which could be bad jokes, dirty jokes, that kind of thing? So a lot will depend on what she they say when they come forward, but they will come forward.
MORGAN: Amy Holmes, I mean, it is bizarre that even though the scandal had started and it had been running for a couple of days, the latest polls suggests that the public certainly at the moment are not put off by Herman Cain. What do you make of that?
AMY HOLMES, GLENN BECK'S "THE BLAZE": Well, I would say more specifically that the GOP voters are not put off by these allegations because they went through the sexual harassment whiplash of the '90s, of the Anita Hill accusations against Clarence Thomas, then the Paula Jones accusations against President Clinton, where we saw a lot of feminists, you know, frankly, changing their tune when it came with sexual harassment. Susan Estrich, she even said in the Paula Jones case that not every woman tells the truth and not every accusation should be used to destroy a man.
So I think for those GOP voters, they're rallying around Herman Cain really in part because of a common enemy, and that's what they see as hypocrisy in the political class and in the media. But in terms of this scandal, how far does this go? Only Herman Cain really knows, and up to this point we've gotten a lot of conflicting stories from Herman Cain, which I think could eventually hurt him.
MORGAN: Alan Dershowitz, the level of money that these women have been paid doesn't seem to be very high. What does that tell you about the nature of these allegations?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, it tells me two things. First, they're too high for simply a severance package for people earning relatively small amounts of money. They generally don't get a year severance package. They're just dismissed or they want to leave, so something was going on, but it also suggests that it wasn't the worst kind of sexual harassment. That it was probably some intermediate level, which, by the way, back in the early '90s might not have been taken as seriously as it would be taken today.
So he may be caught in a kind of time bind whereas what was if not acceptable in the workplace certainly tolerable or not as condemnable back in the '90s as it would be looked at today. So we just don't know enough to make a final assessment, but the amounts involved suggest that it's at a middle level of seriousness. Not at the lowest level and not at the highest level.
MORGAN: And Amy Holmes, we've had charges of racism here both from Herman Cain and others. Ann Coulter called it a high-tech lynching and came out with this extraordinary comment that, you know, black conservatives are better than the Democrat blacks at the moment, which I thought was offensive on almost every level.
What do you think of the central charge that there is a racist undertone to the way that people are now going after Herman Cain?
HOLMES: Well, I haven't seen a racist undertone to this. Herman Cain, he is the -- one of the front contenders for the GOP nomination at the moment, and he's coming under the kind of scrutiny that any candidate should.
However, I would point out that the media did not put the same scrutiny on John Edwards when he was running for president, and it was revealed by the "National Enquirer" in the midst of his campaign that he was carrying on an affair with a campaign staffer, who we all know now as Rielle Hunter, and that he had even impregnated this woman.
And Bob Schieffer of CBS, he was on Don Imus, and he said, well, we're going to ignore this story, the Washington Press Corps. This is the kind of thing that we should really give a miss because this doesn't look like there's anything to it to me, and, in fact, we saw that the Washington press corps did not dig further. And this was an affair that was ongoing during the campaign, so I think that with Herman Cain and with his political future, again, it really depends on what other allegations come forward and how he handles it.
DERSHOWITZ: But I think there's an enormous difference --
MORGAN: Alan, you want to jump in there? DERSHOWITZ: Yes, I think there's an enormous difference, no matter how despicable you might think that Edwards was, it was entirely voluntary. There were no unwelcomed advances. Here you have three alleged victims, and I think it's impossible to ignore allegations of real victims.
We have to find out what the allegations are, how serious they are. For example, what the race of the alleged victims are. Obviously, in the --
HOLMES: Why would that make any difference in terms of the veracity of the allegations?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, in the case involving Thomas -- not in terms of veracity, but in terms of whether there's any racism involved. In the Thomas case, he called it a high-tech lynching and yet his accuser was of the same race he was. That really discredits his allegations.
And so it would in some way either lend or discredit claims of racism. Now you can have racism no matter what the race of the victims are if the motivation behind the accusation by those who are making them outside of the victims was racist. This does not sound like race. This sounds like politics.
It sounds like it might be a little bit of dirty politics from some of his Republican opponents. He first alleged that the Perry campaign may have been involved, and then the Perry campaign issued denials, and sort of apologies.
We have a lot more to go before we get to the bottom of this, but I predict we will get to the bottom of this, and Herman Cain would be well advised to try to get out in front of the story and not let it constantly creep up on him from behind.
HOLMES: And Piers, if I could add --
MORGAN: OK, Alan -- Alan and Amy, let me -- let me bring it to a halt. But let me ask you both for a prediction. As things stand, does Herman Cain survive this scandal, do you think? Alan?
DERSHOWITZ: I think he does if it's not quid pro quo sexual harassment. I think he does not survive a quid pro quo sexual harassment if it's credible.
HOLMES: I think it's far --
MORGAN: OK, Amy?
HOLMES: I think it's far too early to tell, but I would say that Herman Cain should have given Mike Murphy a call, and he was the GOP strategist who had Arnold Schwarzenegger say, where there's smoke, there's fire.
MORGAN: Amy Holmes, Alan Dershowitz, thank you both very much.
DERSHOWITZ: Thank you. MORGAN: Coming up, a woman who knows more than most about crisis in the White House. Condoleezza Rice live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I, Condoleezza Rice, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend.
CONDOLEEZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER TO GEORGE W. BUSH: That I will support and defend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Constitution of the United States.
RICE: The Constitution of the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Against all enemies --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That was Condoleezza Rice being sworn in as President Bush's secretary of state in 2005, and she's here tonight to talk about life inside the Bush White House. Her new book, "No Higher Honor: A Memoir of my Years in Washington," and Condoleezza Rice joins me now.
And welcome back, Dr. Rice. We last spoke in January when I first launched this show. And it's been pretty quiet since then. I mean, what's really happened? We've had the Arab Spring uprisings, bin Laden has been killed. Gadhafi has been killed. Mubarak overthrown.
MORGAN: We've had the biggest financial crisis again we've ever seen. And we've got a guy who used to sell pizzas running your party's chance to take on the president.
RICE: It's been --
MORGAN: So pretty quiet.
RICE: It's been a busy several months. That's absolutely right.
MORGAN: What do you make of the whole Herman Cain phenomenon? Because it is a phenomenon. He's come pretty much from nowhere to storm the GOP ratings. He is engulfed in maybe a scandal. We don't know the full -- the full extent of it yet. But what do you think of him personally?
RICE: Well, I don't -- I don't actually know him, but this is what our primary season is all about. And he's an interesting person. He has an interesting background. Obviously, a lot of business experience. And he's sort of shaking up the race. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but this will all settle out over the next several months, and the Republican Party will choose a nominee, but our primaries tend to be a little bit like this.
MORGAN: Reading your book, I mean, obviously you make a big play of saying no one needs to tell you how to feel as a black American, as a black woman. When you see the charge of potential racism in the Herman Cain case, people saying that people are only going after him because he's a black conservative, do you think that holds any merit?
RICE: Well, I actually don't like playing the race card on either side. I don't like it when people say that the criticism of President Obama is because he is black. The criticism is because he's the president, and we tend to criticize our presidents. And so I really don't like playing the race card on either side.
Obviously, I view myself as a -- as a black Republican, as someone who can stand up for myself, and as I have often said, I don't need anyone to tell me how to be black. I've been black all my life, and if you don't like my political views, then that's really too bad.
MORGAN: What do you think of the GOP race generally? It's been fluctuating wildly over the last couple of months. And I guess it may still fluctuate. Mitt Romney has been the steady Eddie, if you like. Consistently polling around the 25 percent mark. Others have leapt above him and then crashed below again.
What can you read into this from your experience?
RICE: Well, I don't think you can read anything in at this point. We really will get a much better view, a much better barometer of how to think about this race after the first of the year, after the first primary, so you know I was associated with the campaign very closely in 2000 -- the George W. Bush campaign, going all the way back really to the beginning of '99, and there was a lot of turbulence in that campaign, too.
People forget, for instance, that George W. Bush lost the New Hampshire primary by I think 17 or 18 points. And so there's a lot of settling out to do here, but I'm one who actually thinks that our political system is not too rough. You want to see people under pressure. You want to see them when things get a little difficult because when they get in the oval office, things are going to get rough and they're going to get a little difficult.
MORGAN: Without actually giving me names, I know you probably won't of who your favorite is.
MORGAN: Which of the candidates do you find yourself agreeing with most on their policy statements?
RICE: Well --
MORGAN: And it may not necessarily be the one that you would vote for.
RICE: Well, there's no single candidate right now about whom I can say that. I think we have some very good candidates in the race. I myself am enjoying for the first time in quite a long time just sort of watching the campaign as a voter, as obviously a committed Republican, and I think they're debating the issues. That's important.
I probably like to see a little bit more attention to foreign policy, but I understand that given the issues of domestic internal repair that the United States has to do that a lot of people are not focusing on foreign policy, but I'll just watch the debates and, you know, I'll make my choices later on.
MORGAN: I mean, when the frontrunner, Herman Cain, doesn't appear to know anything about China's nuclear policy, do you get itchy fingers? Do you think maybe you should throw your hat in the ring, albeit, belatedly?
RICE: No, I certainly don't get itchy fingers about throwing my own hat in the ring. No. Absolutely not. Isn't that kind of a mixed metaphor? But anyway, I don't -- I don't myself.
RICE: What I -- what I see is someone who may have misspoken. I really don't know. I know that there were many times during the 2000 campaign when issues of -- the governor know this, the governor that, the president of the United States -- the people who come to the presidency of the United States very often don't come with foreign policy experience, but they get it rather quickly.
And so the important thing to look for in candidates is what do they stand for, what are their principles, do they understand the unique character of the United States, and its unique role in the world.
MORGAN: Let's turn to your book. A fascinating read. A complex read. Covers eight extraordinary years really of the start of the millennium. When you finished the book, what was your emotion when you finally signed off on it? What did you conclude about that period in your life?
RICE: Well, first of all, there was the relief that I finally finished the writing, which, as you know, can be quite trying. But essentially --
MORGAN: It's a big book, too.
RICE: It is. But -- well, Piers, it's only 740 odd pages, and that's less than 100 pages a year, because we were in office for eight years, so I think it's actually not that -- not that big a tomb (ph), but it is for me an opportunity to talk to people about what it's like to be in the White House, to be in the State Department, to try to give people a glimpse of not just what the decisions were, but how they were made and the distinctly human character of the people and being in those circumstances.
We're all human beings. There are personalities. There are disagreements, but most importantly, people are working hard on behalf of the country and I called it "No Higher Honor" because that's really the way that I feel about those years that I served.
MORGAN: I mean I've read all the books now by the chief protagonists of that period in the administration, and my conclusion of your thoughts on them, if I was boiling it down, would be you admire the president, President Bush, you hated Dick Cheney, you tolerated Donald Rumsfeld, and you felt a bit sorry for Colin Powell.
How have I done there?
RICE: Let's start over. I did indeed admire the president. There's no doubt about it, and I really do believe that he did an exceptional job under extraordinarily difficult circumstances. The vice president I have a high regard for. We simply didn't agree a lot of the time, and particularly in the second term.
I think the vice president exhibited some disappointment in the turn that the foreign policy took in that second term, and associates it with me and the State Department, and that's fine. People can disagree, but I don't have any less regard for the vice president.
As to Don, Don and I have been friends for a long time, and I know that Don is a kind of irascible character. I think he did a fine job on many things as secretary of defense. We didn't agree ultimately about the course of the war in Iraq, and that was ultimately settled, and Colin Powell is my friend, and he is a great patriot.
He served as secretary of state at a time when we were at war, and the hard thing about being secretary of state when we are at war is that especially in the early phases the Pentagon is first on, and so, yes, sometimes it was very hard being America's diplomat between 2001 and 2004, and I respect him for the job he did.
MORGAN: I mean, you describe once -- you say every public appearance with Donald Rumsfeld was a disaster.
RICE: Well, because -- well, the one in Baghdad was a bit of a problem because I describe in Baghdad that president -- in the book that President Bush had sent Don and me to Baghdad to sort of show unity between the Defense Department and the State Department, and Don was impatient with the whole thing, and unfortunately sort of came through in the press availability.
And I'm afraid we wrote stories that we really didn't intend to write about how well we were getting along, and so yes, that one was a bit of a disaster, but you know those things happen, and as I said, Don and I remain friends, and it's awfully important for people to realize that you can have substantive differences. You can have intense debates. You can even have intense arguments, and you can still do it in a civil way where you may have personalities involved, but it doesn't have to become personal.
MORGAN: And before we go to a break, very quickly, Dick Cheney said that he saw you crying in a professional situation. I found that very hard to believe, Dr. Rice.
RICE: Yes, I find that -- I find that kind of hard to believe, too. No. I don't think I went to the vice president crying about something in the press. It doesn't sound like me, and I'm pretty sure it didn't happen.
MORGAN: No. I didn't -- it didn't sound like you at all to me.
Coming up after the break, I want to talk about the revolution in the Middle East, the death of bin Laden and Gadhafi, and whether you feel that the way you went about war in Iraq triggered all this or actually was the way that it shouldn't have been done.
MORGAN: That was reaction in Libya to the demise of Moammar Gadhafi. And back with me now is the former secretary of state Condoleezza Rice who famously found herself the object of Gadhafi's weird affections.
MORGAN: Dr. Rice, I mean, it was a very bizarre setup where even when he left his palace, they found this glorious scrapbook in your honor. And when you went to see him, you actually write in the book, and I'm going to read this back to you.
"At the end of the dinner Gadhafi told me he made a videotape of me. Uh-oh, I thought. What's this going to be? It was quite an innocent collection of photos of me with world leaders, set to the music of a song called 'Black Flower in the White House,' written for me by a Libyan composure. It was weird, but at least it wasn't raunchy."
MORGAN: Quite extraordinary.
RICE: Yes. Quite extraordinary. And weird and a bit creepy. I had actually known that he had this fixation on me. A couple of foreign minister friends had told me and also a couple of my staff. And so I was going to Libya. My job was to go there. He had given us his weapons of mass destruction. He had paid reparations to the families of the victims of his terrorist acts. It was my job to go there and do a little bit of diplomatic business and get out.
And so that's what I did, but I have to say I did have that terrible moment when he said that he had the video tape. I am just glad that it all came out all right.
MORGAN: And he never made any kind of move on you then? Object of affection?
RICE: No, no. Absolutely not.
MORGAN: Being more serious about this, I mean, the end of Gadhafi was a suitably gruesome end to a gruesome tyrant in many ways. When you saw the way that he was killed, you know, dragged out by the rebels and basically executed, what did you feel about that? Was there a debate about whether it was the right thing -- it shouldn't have been allowed to happen? What did you think?
RICE: Well, revolutions are not pretty, and there are any number of circumstances in which the tyrant who stays too long and refuses to leave and when fear breaks down, and on behalf of his people, and the tables are turned, those ends are often very violent. And so it might not be the way that we sitting here in a stable democracy that's more than 200 years old, almost 300 years old might want things to happen, but revolutions aren't pretty.
MORGAN: When you watch the extraordinary events of this year throughout the Middle East, clearly there's a pattern of revolution driven from the ground up through mainly young people disaffected with their lot under these tyrants seizing control of their own destiny. And in Libya, in particular, you saw the end of Gadhafi driven by these pretty heroic rebels who decided to take him on and see him off.
And the American military and the American administration very much hands off. And the difference, of course, in cost was huge. The Libya campaign cost $1.5 billion. Iraq at its worst was costing almost that a week. Very, very different way of going about the same objective of getting rid of a bad guy.
Do you look at what's happened to Barack and Gadhafi, and slightly regret the way you helped the administration go about Iraq?
RICE: Well, the circumstances were fundamentally different, and the times were fundamentally different. And we went after Saddam Hussein because he was a security threat. He caused wars in the region. He had used weapons of mass destruction. He was going after our aircraft.
We didn't actually go after him to bring democracy to Iraq. We brought -- we were going after him because he was a security threat. Once we had depost him, it was important to give the Iraqi people a chance for a democratic future. But I think it would be a mistake to think that Saddam Hussein would have permitted an Arab spring in Iraq for even a moment. It would have been over in hours.
We have seen how he deals with uprisings. The way that he dealt with the uprising in the south when he gassed the Shia or the Kurds immediately after the Gulf War in 1991, where he slaughtered hundreds and thousands of people. This Moammar Gadhafi was a monstrous leader. He was not Saddam Hussein either in terms of his reach, his capability, or his capacity for systematic brutality.
And so Saddam Hussein was not going to fall by these means, and I am very glad that he is gone. And, in fact, it probably helped to stimulate Gadhafi's decision that he would give up his weapons of mass destruction, coming as it did right on the heels of the deposing Saddam.
And I'm awfully glad that we were able to disarm him of his most dangerous weapons before this revolution because Gadhafi sitting in his bunker with dangerous weapons might have been -- there might have been a very different outcome. MORGAN: What was the biggest mistake of the whole Iraq campaign? The reliance publicly on establishing that he had weapons of mass destruction or the kind of drip, drip, drip, you call it. The embarrassment, really, of the president becoming almost a WMD fact checker --
MORGAN: -- which was clearly a pretty degrading experience and deeply flawed. And in the end, it turned out that the public reasons for going to war with Saddam were totally incorrect, whereas had you done what the administration did here with Gadhafi and say we're going after Saddam because he is a bad man and it will be good for the region, at least you could sit back now and say, well, we got rid of him for the reasons we said we were going to get rid of him.
RICE: I think we did make those reasons, but frankly, we didn't emphasize them. And I talk about this in the book.
First of all, we belief he had weapons of mass destruction. And that was the immediate threat particularly in the aftermath of 9/11 when you are worried about some nexus between terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.
Weapons of mass destruction were not a theoretical probability with Saddam Hussein. After all, he had used them before. He had been seen in 1991 after the Gulf War I to have a crude nuclear device in perhaps a year, and so we believed that the weapons of mass destruction case were solid. But as I said, I don't think it was wise to have any of us, but particularly the president, debating or defending an intelligence nugget.
Did he buy Uranium ore in Niger? What were aluminium tubes for? Why was he buying so much chlorine? Because the strategic argument was, that this was a cancer in the region, Saddam Hussein, who had caused two massive wars in the region, who had tried to assassinate a president of the United States, who had put 400,000 of his people in mass graves, was breaking out of the constraints under which he had been put in 1991 and was reconstituting, according to our intelligence agencies, his weapons of mass destruction. That broader strategic case, I think, got lost in, as you call the drip, drip, drip of intelligence nuggets.
MORGAN: Welcome back my special guest Dr. Condoleezza Rice.
Dr. Rice, I'm getting lots of tweets while we had the break there saying, I wish that she would run for president.
RICE: Well, that is very nice, but thanks, I'll pass on that honor.
MORGAN: Is that a total lifetime pass, or could you see yourself tempted back? RICE: I'm really a policy person. I'm not a politician. And I've been through a campaign. I know what that takes, and I'll leave it to others.
MORGAN: You're not entirely ruling it out?
RICE: Piers, that's a no.
MORGAN: Let me ask you, where were you when you heard that Osama bin Laden had been killed, because for you personally, never mind professionally, it must have been an extraordinary moment in your life having spent so long trying to catch him after 9/11.
RICE: It was, indeed. I had just come in actually to Washington D.C. I had landed that evening from California, and I flipped on the television, and they were getting ready to have the news conference. And I thought the president of the United States doesn't go into the east room this time of night. I think they got Bin Laden. And I was so gratified.
I was grateful to President Obama for taking a difficult decision because by all reports, it wasn't a certainty that Osama bin Laden was there. And I was very glad that I think we had left the infrastructure in place to make that moment possible.
The courier, for instance, who in 2007, we learned of this courier who eventually gave up bin Laden, and so -- or led us to Bin Laden, and so this was a great story of American perseverance over ten years said to foes in particular we don't give up until the job is done.
MORGAN: Who was the first person you told when you heard the news?
RICE: Well, I actually had a couple of people with me traveling with me. One of them that worked with me at the State Department. We immediately talked about it, and it was a really very -- very gratifying moment because even though I don't believe that al Qaeda is done as an organization, in many ways the organization that did 9/11 is a very different organization now. It's been cut down to size. Not just through the kill of bin Laden, but also the many fields and roles like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah who were taken off the battlefield. So this is a good story for American perseverance.
MORGAN: Did you miss high office, or are you just relieved to be out of it all, because the book details again and again the sacrifice that you have to make, like so many people at a high level of White House administration. You talk about envying your driver because every weekend he would be off doing stuff with his family or having fun, and you were off around the world on another trip. So I guess mixed feelings?
RICE: Well, of course, it was a wonderful experience, and it was a very high honor, as I said. But I was glad to be done. Eight years is plenty. Especially eight years under the circumstances under which we served, but I am so happy to be back at Stanford, and I'm a university professor again, which is really my vocation and my calling in life. And I don't -- I don't miss it. I like reading the newspaper and saying, oh, isn't that interesting and moving on to the next thing. So it's really quite nice.
MORGAN: And very quickly, if I was to pin you down and say your biggest triumph in the eight years and your biggest regret, what would you say?
RICE: Well, clearly, associating the United States of America firmly with the freedom agenda in the Middle East after 60 years of trying to trade democracy for stability and getting neither, I'm very proud of that speech in Cairo in June of 2005 that set a different tone based on President Bush's second inaugural.
In terms of regrets, of course, there will be many over the years, and we'll see how this all plays out. It may surprise you that in many ways the thing I most wish we had started earlier was the work on immigration reform. We were going to work with Mexico to really take that issue on.
I think 9/11 for very good reasons didn't allow us the time and energy and focus to do it. And when the comprehensive immigration bill finally came up in 2007, it failed even though John Kyle and John McCain and George W. Bush and Ted Kennedy all wanted it. And we're still fighting the immigration issue in ways that I think are getting increasingly more difficult and really threatening what is one of America's really great strengths, which is drawing people here from all over the world who just want a better chance in life.
MORGAN: Well, Dr. Rice, it's been a pleasure, as always, talking to you. It's a terrific book, fascinating read. It's called "A Memoir of my Years in Washington: No Higher Honor." And it's certainly that the aspect of honor comes through on every page. And I thank you for your service and for coming on the show again.
RICE: Thank you.
MORGAN: I really appreciate it.
RICE: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.
MORGAN: We'll be right back.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're keeping them honest ahead on 10:00 p.m. on "360." A third woman now speaking out alleging sexual harassment by Herman Cain.
Meanwhile, the Perry and Romney campaign are waging war of words on who is responsible for the leaked the scandal.
And the Cain campaign gets testy when reporters try to get answers. We'll sort it out with our political team including James Carville. We're keeping them honest.
Also tonight in "Crime and Punishment." A bizarre story from an Amish community in Ohio. These five Amish men involved and arrested on kidnapping and burglary charges. Authorities say they attacked other Amish men, attacked them by cutting of their beards to intimidate and humiliate them. We'll tell you why, ahead.
Also, a story so shocking we can't even show you the video right now. A Texas man, a family judge, violently whipping his teenage daughter as punishment. He said she was disobedient.
We'll show a small portion of the video ahead. And how that judge may now be brought to justice. Those stories and tonight's "Ridiculist" at top of the hour. More PIERS MORGAN in a moment.
MORGAN: Even if you live under a rock, you have undoubtedly heard about the breakup of Kim Kardashian's all too tragically brief marriage. Well, I recently sat down with Kim's mother, Kris Jenner, for the book "Kris Jenner and All Things Kardashian."
You're the boss, aren't you? You're the god mother?
KRIS JENNER, AUTHOR: I -- somebody has to be in charge. So might as well be me. Yes. It's a great job. Yes, I wear a lot of different hats, for sure, because I'm their mom, and I'm their manager, and I'm Bruce's wife, and, you know, kind of in control of what happens.
MORGAN: What are you first? What's the most important role you have?
JENNER: Mom. I'm definitely mom first. I think that's my instinct. That's my nature. That's what I wanted to have six kids since I was, you know, 14 years old. So that's my most delicious role, and meatiest role, it's my hardest role for sure, but it's what I enjoy. It's what I'm kind of made of.
MORGAN: And you're genius, it seems to me. This is like a family, because I met two of your daughters earlier this year.
MORGAN: Is this thing about branding, I mean, you have taken a concept of a brand to virtually unparallel lengths. I mean, recently a survey came out that said you made $65 million last year. Which has not been denied, I've noted.
JENNER: Well, you know, I think it's probably a combination of all of the neighbor's money and the people in calibasis. You know, I don't --
MORGAN: But this is staggering sum of money to make from I would say unconventional talent. That is not a normal talent there in the whole group. There's no natural singers.
JENNER: That's right. Very true. They can't dance or sing or act or --
MORGAN: All of the unconventional sources of talent are not there, but there's a clear talent for marketing, for branding and for business.
MORGAN: Tell me about how the Kardashian began, because you created this.
JENNER: Well, we created the show, the show idea, the concept of doing a reality show with a family. And we had pre-existing stores at the time.
So we had clothing stores and a children store, and that's been in my blood since I was a child because my mom has had stores. And so many people that always said to us, you know, the Osbourne were born, and everybody said, oh, you guys are so crazy, you guys should have your own show. And that sort of resonated with me for a couple of years. And then finally, you know, one thing led to another and a friend approached me and said, you should go and meet with Ryan Seacrest and I did, and he pitched it with me to E! And 30 days later, we were filming a show.
MORGAN: Have you had any moments of, should I be doing this.
JENNER: You know, no. I think every single thing that we put out there is just who we are. We don't have a lot of things that you don't see on the show. But I think part of it is it's an agreement that we all made with each other when we first started filming. We said, if we're going to do this, let's let it all hang out. Let's be real and let's do it.
MORGAN: It's all happening in Vegas, right?
JENNER: Kardashian chaos, so it's going to be everything, anything Kardashian.
MORGAN: Is it always sells this Kardashian stuff?
MORGAN: What's the weirdest stuff that you got in there?
JENNER: OK. So I decided that since the store was next to pool, that we should design beach towels with the girl's pictures on them wearing bikinis so every girl has their own towel and you can buy the beach towel and then take it to the pool --
MORGAN: So you can literally lie on Kim Kardashian by the pool.
MORGAN: Because it's a bizarre part of your life, involving the O.J. Simpson trial.
MORGAN: Which many of people may not realize, but you were best friends with Nicole and your ex-husband was part of the defense team for O.J. Simpson.
JENNER: He was.
MORGAN: It sort of hinted that he wasn't completely convinced with O.J.'s innocence, although he defended him as a friend. He felt out of loyalty, he should be there for him.
JENNER: He felt it was the right thing to do at the time. And I think that he certainly changed his stance, you know, before he passed away. I will always feel like the day that we lost Nicole as a friend, you know as a dear friend, we lost O.J. the same day.
MORGAN: Let's take another break. And I will come back and talk about Kim because apparently the marriage is all over.
JENNER: Oh, no.
MORGAN: There's no denial. We'll have to wait until the break to finish.
MORGAN. Apparently it's all over already. The marriage is over. It's on the rocks?
JENNER: Yes, don't tell me that. No.
MORGAN: They've been unpacking suitcases left, right, center. It's all over.
JENNER: Well, they've been in New York for the last couple months shooting "Kourtney and Kim Take New York." So they're coming home tomorrow.
MORGAN: Still happily married?
KARDASHIAN: Yes, as far as I know. I mean, somebody better give me a call, because I have work to do. Yes, yes. I mean, they haven't enjoyed their company in -- for a long time. Kim and I went to Dubai last week. So I was with her alone, but she seemed really happy.
MORGAN: How much of your brand -- and I'm playing slightly devil's advocate here, but how much of it could have been possibly without the explosion of attention that came with the sex tape involving Kim?
JENNER: Honestly, we had a show kind of in the works and had a tape done before that happened. So it was quite the opposite. When that happened, it was a horrible time for sure. But all I thought about was, well, there goes the show, you know, and it was actually quite the opposite. So I was -- it was shocking to me.
MORGAN: Did you think, there goes the show, well, there goes my daughter?
JENNER: Well, that came first.
MORGAN: How did you hear about this tape?
JENNER: Um, Kim told me.
MORGAN: Hard conversation.
JENNER: Yes, it was a very difficult conversation. But at the time, you know, it was quite a few years ago, and at the time you just -- you know, you have to pick yourself up and you have to -- I went into my room and I had a good cry and I had a good cry with my daughter, and then you have to, you know, make some lemonade out of some crazy sour lemons.
MORGAN: What are you proudest of with your family, would you say?
JENNER: My girls and my son, their hearts, they are good people. They work hard. They have the best work ethic in the world. I'm proudest of my grandson, who I adore. And the way that my kids handle themselves, they are so professional. They are so into this for the long run. They are -- they go to work every day, you know, at the crack down and they work until they fall down, and then they get up the next day and do it all over again. And they never complain. And they are having the best time. And I think I'm proud because they feel blessed. We feel very lucky.
MORGAN: Well, I feel lucky could have the Kardashian's in my life.
JENNER: Thank you.
MORGAN: I still get vicarious pleasure out of watching you do your crazy stuff with each other. Yes.
JENNER: That makes me happy.
MORGAN: It's not escapism.
JENNER: Yes, you kind of go off some place --
MORGAN: There the crazy Kardashians. It makes me feel like my life isn't so mad after all.
JENNER: That's right. I think we all have something.
I think everybody finds one person they can relate to and they enjoy that.
MORGAN: I've got a favorite.
MORGAN: I have a life-size cardboard Kardashian gave me in my New York office.
JENNER: I heard that. Will you tweet it to me?
MORGAN: Yes, it's lovely. It sits behind me all day long.
JENNER: Is it taller than she is.
MORGAN: It's sort of slightly risque so it does raise a few eyebrows, but I feel empowered by it. There's a bit of Kardashian girl power bursting through behind me.
JENNER: Oh my God, that's good to hear. You've got company in your office all day long and it's my daughter.
MORGAN: Kim is there all day long.
JENNER: I'm going to get you a beach towel.
MORGAN: Thank you.
JENNER: You're welcome.
MORGAN: Kris, it's been a pleasure.
JENNER: Thank you.
MORGAN: It's a lot of drum, please.
JENNER: OK, got it.
MORGAN: That's all for us tonight. "AC360" starts right now without a Kim Kardashian beach towel.