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No Verdict Tonight on MJ Death Trial

Aired November 4, 2011 - 21:00:00   ET


DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Here we go now.

Breaking news. No verdict tonight in the Conrad Murray trial. Going to be a long weekend for him, no doubt.

Then much worse. A teen throws a party after allegedly killing his parents and showing guests the bodies. What kind of child or children does this? I will look into that.

And Justin Bieber, he responds to paternity allegations and a 17-year- old, who`s a famous guy, any 17-year-old handle this kind of stress? Let`s get started.

(on camera): Good evening. Here we are again from downtown Los Angeles. That is our lovely City Hall there. And of course, it`s a rainy day in Los Angeles.

You might think that would tamper some of the Michael Jackson fans, but they are out there in force. They run away when the rain comes, but they are still back out there. We talked to some of them tonight.

The verdict watch in the Michael Jackson death trial is over for now. A Los Angeles County jury deliberated for seven hours and 40 minutes before calling it quits for the weekend. Now, is Conrad Murray guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of the King of Pop? Watch this and we will talk.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now deciding the fate of Dr. Conrad Murray, a verdict could be reached at any moment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Verdict watch, this is it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they`re very serious in what they`re doing. They must be unanimous. All 12 people must agree on this verdict.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They really need to understand causation. Criminal negligence is basically conceded by the defense. The defense has its causation, so they`re going to focus on that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think this was a jury that took a lot of notes, paid a lot of attention.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it is too close to call.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is sort of a ticking tock that makes everybody nervous. And the longer it goes on, the more nervous you get.


PINSKY: Well, as jurors deliberated inside the courthouse, the tempers flared outside. Look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t know (INAUDIBLE). Just like Dr. Murray, because it ain`t in you. I`m there for justice, not only for Michael Jackson, for the next person that comes along that has to go through the same thing and their families have to suffer. What the hell do you serve for, a murderer?


PINSKY: Well, that young lady wasn`t the only one who seemed to be on edge. Michael Jackson`s sister La Toya earlier today tweeted, quote, "I`m so shaky right now waiting for a verdict. Every little noise has me jumping out of my skin."

Joining me tonight, Garo Ghazarian. He`s the attorney for Michael Jackson`s former dermatologist, Arnold Klein. Sandeep Kapoor, he was Anna Nicole Smith`s doctor before she died. And Jane Velez-Mitchell is here with me in the studio. She`s the host of "ISSUES" with Jane Velez-Mitchell on HLN.

Jane, I`m going to go to you first to describe the atmosphere in the courthouse today.


You`ve got the Conrad Murray supporters here. You`ve got the Michael Jackson supporters here. They`re all armed with their signs and they literally deal with their signs.

PINSKY: I expect to see some them to be like bombing each other.


PINSKY: It`s wild. But it kind of surprising - I went down there, too, and I was surprised that - there they are.


PINSKY: They`re squared off like that.


PINSKY: I was surprised at two things. First of all, that the police seem to have as good of control over this as they did. There wasn`t any breakdown, wasn`t any actual violence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. It`s more like, hey, you touched me, I`m going to call the cops. You see that? Everybody saw that. You touched me.

So there`s a lot of acting out. There`s a lot of the theater of the absurd. A lot of drama. Everybody is aware that there are cameras from all over the world.

PINSKY: That was the other thing. We`re seeing one side of the street here. I don`t know if people can appreciate it. I don`t think they can see it in the monitor.

Across the street from where these people are lined up, there are tents. It`s like Tent City, but not this Tent City that (INAUDIBLE).


PINSKY: It`s the tents with cameras -


PINSKY: -- from a hundred different networks it seems like.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. People are performing a little bit for the camera, but there`s a lot of genuine emotion. People love Michael Jackson. They feel that he was murdered.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: They feel it should be a stronger charge, and they`re there to vent and they are venting like crazy, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: That is true.

Now, the closing arguments ended just 24 hours ago, and they were explosive. Watch as the defense attacks the medical experts who testified on behalf of the prosecution.


ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is easy in hindsight to sit up and point the finger at your colleague and say whatever the prosecution wants you to say. It`s easy to do that, especially when you are - you`re Dr. Murray, who has to walk through this world painted as a villain for everything that he does.

But these doctors, Dr. Kamangar, Dr. Steinberg, and Dr. Shafer have never been in the shoes of Conrad Murray, ever. It`s easy to make those statements when you`ve never walked in that man`s shoes. It`s easy to make those statements when you`ve never had a patient and a friend like Michael Jackson. And it`s easy to make those statements when you have a minuscule amount of compassion compared to Dr. Murray.


PINSKY: I`ve got to tell you, I - before I go to Dr. Kapoor, I`ve got - I have to respond to that - those defense allegations or defense reasoning, which is no one should have been in his shoes! That`s the point here! The shoes - the situation he put himself in with his "patient" and friend that he loved, so inappropriate that no doctor should go there. That was an adulterated situation. He never should have gotten himself in that position in the first place.

So for the defense to say, oh, unless you have been in that situation, you can`t possibly understand what it`s like to make those decisions, nonsense.

Now, Dr. Kapoor, you were found not guilty in Anna Nicole Smith wrongful death suit, I imagine, though, you can still - whether you feel the way I do or not, you can sympathize with Dr. Murray, it`s got to be awful for him, just sitting there waiting for the - waiting for the jury to come up with their decision.

DR. SANDEEP KAPOOR, ANNA NICOLE SMITH`S FORMER PHYSICIAN: Yes. I think that, you know, if you - if you look at what, you know, as the evidence goes, I mean, again, putting yourself in someone`s shoes. I mean, I was technically in those shoes also waiting for a verdict and hearing all these things, and I had experts up there also putting me down and telling me what kind of physician I was.

But the point is, is that, you know, those are experts. No one was there in the room. And so, again, he - but, again, the evidence played out to be that there was several instances and steps that were taken that were wrong. And, you know, definitely I feel the same way. I feel that after the evidence has played out that basically there is a negligence factor here that cannot be denied, whether you have an expert saying this - this way or not.

PINSKY: Now, during the state`s rebuttal close - the rebuttal to the closing, Prosecutor David Walgren mockingly referred to Dr. Murray as poor Dr. Murray. And then he lists all the people the defense is then blaming for Michael Jackson`s death. Watch this.


DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: Poor Conrad Murray. Everyone is just working against him. They blame Alyssa Fleak. They blame Alberto Alvarez. They blame Dr. Shafer. They blame Kai Chase. They blame AEG. They blame Randy Phillips, Michael Amir Williams, Faheem Mohammed, Arnold Klein. Everybody but Conrad Murray. Poor Conrad Murray.


PINSKY: Garo, he mentions your client, Dr. Arnold Klein. Were you surprised? Did it bother you? Did it bother Dr. Klein?

GARO GHAZARIAN, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S DERMATOLOGIST: No, it didn`t bother me. I will see Dr. Klein after your show. I`ll be going over to his house and I`ll find out his sentiments. I know he`s anxious as everybody else as much as I am for this verdict. Although, we don`t know what the jury is really going to do.

PINSKY: You and I have gone back and forth about this a couple of times.


PINSKY: Do me a favor, when you`re there tonight -


PINSKY: -- ask him if he`s upset that Dr. Conrad Murray did not pick up the phone and call him.

GHAZARIAN: I already have done that and he is upset. And at the opportune time, he will come and talk to you folks about in a greater detail things that obviously did not come out during the trial that he feels very compelled to share with the world.

PINSKY: Can I ask you some of this, is it about the complexity of Michael Jackson as a patient? Is that the kind of stuff you`re talking about?

GHAZARIAN: I think it`s about the outrageousness of some of the things that were going on, and apparently he was trying to find out what was going on at the home and people were keeping him away from it. And now he finds out what was going on, and he`s really - he`s really outraged about that.

PINSKY: Very interesting. All right. Very good.

Now, next, we will talk with Dr. Conrad Murray`s pastor. He apparently spoke to Dr. Murray today. And we`re going to find out if he can tell us how Dr. Murray is holding up.

And later, Justin Bieber, he responds for the first time to allegations that he fathered a baby. You`re going to hear what he said just coming up.



JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: The legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25, 2009 at 2:26 P.M. His personal physician, who was with him at the time attempted to resuscitate my brother.


PINSKY: The Jackson Family will have to wait over the weekend for the jury to decide whether or not Conrad Murray is guilty of involuntary manslaughter in Michael`s death.

Murray has maintained his innocence. I would say not only he`s maintained his innocence, he has convinced himself, I`m sure of this, and convinced his legal team he is beyond reproach. He did everything just right. He posted this video in August, 2009.


DR. CONRAD MURRAY, DEFENDANT: Please, don`t worry. As long as I keep God in my heart and you in my life, I will be fine. I have done all I could do. I told the truth and I have faith the truth will prevail. God bless you and thank you.


PINSKY: Now, before I introduce Pastor Lewis, I want to talk to Garo here at the table with me. You mentioned something while we`re watching Conrad Murray that I said he`s convinced himself of having done everything just right and I said I think the defense team and his attorneys have been deluded into believing the same. And you said something very interesting.

GHAZARIAN: Well, it`s not delusion, you know? The defense attorneys as a matter of - as a matter of practice have to find elements in the - in the client`s story and theory and recollection that they can believe in.

PINSKY: They have to believe it, too.

GHAZARIAN: Because by believing in him, they can then articulate it.

PINSKY: So it`s not drinking the Kool-Aid so much as doing their job.

GHAZARIAN: It is - it is first and foremost doing the job.

PINSKY: Jane, do you agree? Are they`re trying the Kool-Aid (ph)?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree that he has self rationalized and self justified everything he did to the point where he convinced himself and he could go talk to cops and talk himself out of it.

PINSKY: That is exactly the piece of information that I look at to think that, yes, he really believed.

Look, they`ll be fine with me when I tell them exactly how wonderful a job I did. And he didn`t understand - and he didn`t understand how to deal with an addict, let`s be fair. Don`t you think that`s really the bottom line here? He didn`t understand that an addict would take that friendship and manipulate it and wrap it around his finger.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But we`ve seen charismatic stars often manipulate doctors.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re human beings and they get seduced just like everybody else.

PINSKY: Well, I - they should not. That they are - if they do, they really severely violated -


PINSKY: -- their privilege as a physician. At that point it`s not special that they care. That`s the point. Taking care of a celebrity is not special. It`s the same as anybody else.

Jane, if you go and need your appendix out, do you want your doctor going, I have Jane Velez-Mitchell, it makes me nervous. My hand might shake.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I absolutely wouldn`t put myself on a status of -


PINSKY: But I`m saying you could be in the same situation. It could happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. I actually agree with you. I think this case shines a spotlight on doctors and shows America don`t blindly trust them. They`re human beings with all the same character defects and character defaults as anybody else. And often they - because, you know, they say absolute trust corrupts absolutely.

PINSKY: There you go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And so we`re over trusting our doctors and it`s biting us.

PINSKY: Interesting.

GHAZARIAN: And if I may say something -

PINSKY: Real quick, then I go to the pastor.

GHAZARIAN: Real quick. You know, the person that closed his eyes between Michael Jackson and Conrad Murray wasn`t Conrad Murray closing his eyes to Michael Jackson`s addiction. It was Michael Jackson closing his eyes to Conrad Murray, the yes man, the yes doctor who just allowed him to have everything around him.

PINSKY: But Jane, when you were drinking -


PINSKY: -- did you ever have someone like a drinking buddy?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. It`s called lesser companions.

PINSKY: I think this was his lesser companion.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: You want - when you`re in your disease, you want somebody to co-sign your bad behavior.

PINSKY: That`s right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And say, hey, you`re great. I`m going to help you do this because you`ve done nothing wrong.

PINSKY: You just - you just have - you just drink a little more, because you or whatever, your husband is a bad guy, you can`t sleep or you`re nervous. The kids are driving you crazy. That`s all why you need to drink.


PINSKY: Crazy.

All right. We`re joined by Pastor Lewis Logan, Dr. Murray`s religious counselor. Pastor, again, you know, although we - we get up - we come up here rather critical of, of course, Dr. Murray. You know, it`s easy for us to quarterback from - from our armchairs, but he`s got to be in a lot of stress. How`s he doing?

LEWIS LOGAN, CONRAD MURRAY`S PASTOR: Well, he seems to be in even tempered, definitely pensive. I just can`t imagine the weight of - of pressure. But I think, you know, given the conversation and the tone of his voice, he seems to be pretty much resolved to the fact that this is coming to a conclusion at some point. It`s much closer to an end than weeks ago.

PINSKY: Pastor, you - I talked to you probably a month ago and you had dealt with him then. Has there been any change in him across that time?

LOGAN: Not that I really can detect. I think he`s, you know, he`s kind of prepared prior to it in terms of his mindset knowing that this was going to be a long and arduous, difficult season for him. And I think he prepared for whatever was going to come out.

His claims in times of our conversations and times of prayer has just been to let the facts speak for themselves, and, you know, early on the concern was about the jury and sequestration and other factors. But with respect to the media hype and so forth, because it is a highly visible trial, but internally, I think he`s definitely under a great deal of pressure.

But I think he`s trying to handle it in such a way that it is prayerful, that he`s listening to the word as we talk about scripture and talk about, you know, who he really needs to keep his eye on. He appears to be receiving that well and willing to, you know, be in prayer about it.

PINSKY: You know, emotionally - oh, you`re scoffing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I just want to say Radar Online is reporting that he is shooting a documentary. He`s participating in a documentary that they hope to sell and it`s being marketed around town, so that he can possibly generate some income. And he`s been seen out at Gladstones, which a hot spot, a night spot here in Los Angeles. So there`s definitely two sides to Dr. Conrad Murray.

PINSKY: Which is the spiritual side that`s trying to survive a very arduous trial and another who`s out socializing a little bit. I don`t know.

You know, this is a - I certainly wouldn`t want to be in his position, would you?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, absolutely not.


PINSKY: And it`s - I believe - are we going to be doing the "On Call" segment next or can I carry this over with my panel?

And, yes, I`m going to carry this conversation over. Because I - I actually went outside here this afternoon and had my own little interaction with the Michael Jackson team that`s outside the courtroom, and it`s quite the - I love them, by the way, they were fantastic. Some of them are very interesting and very thoughtful, and certainly nothing if not very, very colorful. They`re very, very interesting crowd.

The Murray Crowd, interestingly, went home. His sort of defenders were out there. They were not out there fighting the Michael crowd, they were just - they just went home. And the Michael crowd accused them of being purchased to be there. You`ve heard that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. In fact, I confronted Beatrice (ph), who is the most - well -

PINSKY: Vociferous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- she`s been there every single day. And I said, "Are you being paid?" She said, "No, we`re not being paid." But they accuse them of being paid.

PINSKY: All right. So you two are going to stay with me across the break. And we are going to continue this conversation about what`s going on behind us there in the courthouse and we will have more on the Conrad Murray trial and what may be a long weekend for him. Will there be a verdict on Monday?

And later, Bieber speaks about the paternity suit he`s facing. Did the teen father a child as young - as a young mother claims? I will give you my take on that scandal.


ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is not a reality show. It`s reality. And the decision you make isn`t making good TV, it`s how it affects real human beings, and people that love them.



PINSKY: Welcome back. We are in Los Angeles, downtown, right across from city hall there, and also the courtroom where the jury for the Michael Jackson death trial has left for the day, but the buzz swirling around the verdict continues all around us.

Now, it`s nightfall here, but I went out there a couple of hours ago where emotions are flying high all around the courtroom, as we`ve been discussing here in the room. I experienced them firsthand, and I want to share this with you. Take a look.


PINSKY: Does what happened to him, what eventually happened, surprise you, and do you hold Dr. Murray accountable for that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course I hold Dr. Murray accountable, because it - regardless whether Michael wanted the propofol or not, he had an obligation and a duty to say no.

PINSKY: What do you think is going to happen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That Dr. Murray is guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right. That`s right.

PINSKY: Out of the mouths of babes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re wasting our money and our time. They are both guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One thing I did not like about you is you said he`s (INAUDIBLE), so therefore he`s psychotic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ladies, very aggressive.

PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE) psychotic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re just waiting on the verdict. We - we - you know, we`re tired of waiting.

PINSKY: This is, for Michael fans, having to go through this is kind of retraumatizing, isn`t it? I mean, for every day you have to think about this again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was just like you had just heard the word that Michael had died, and it was just devastating. It was almost like Michael had just died all over again.

After all these weeks, everybody is all tensed up. It`s very volatile out here. Today, they was doing some kicking and stomping and stepping, and - and calling out names today.


PINSKY: Jane, very volatile out there, she says. And you`ve - you`ve interacted with this young lady as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. Those are my buddies now.

PINSKY: Those are your peeps out there. And when do you think a verdict will be announced?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t know. I think that it would either be very short or it could go on very long, because if they step in the quicksand of the medical testimony -


VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- I could see them going way down.

I`m not a lawyer myself, and I was trying to analyze the jury instructions. I don`t know if you can see this, but this is what I was doing with them.

PINSKY: Just trying to sort out the jury instructions?


PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s really complicated.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very complicated.

PINSKY: OK, this is typically our "On Call" segment, so I do want to take a couple of Facebook questions before I let go of my panel here.

Ed on Facebook, he writes, "I found it idiotic for the defense to say to the jury what they`re really asking you to do is convict Dr. Murray for the actions of Michael Jackson." Now, you guys, Garo, you shared with me also that you had your run with addiction. Is it any way fair to hold the addict responsible for the behavior of his or her physician?

GHAZARIAN: No. One of my favorite sayings about addiction is half times half equals a quarter. So if you`re in your addiction, you`re really functioning at a half a speed, and as you grow in your addiction, you become less and less effective. It`s the same as somebody closing their eyes and crossing the street.

PINSKY: Right. I - Jane, I always say it`s like these addictions are like the plant in "Little Shop of Horrors." It sucks everybody in to it. You know, Audrey, too. You go in that room without like a - like somebody with you, you`re going in the plant. You`re part of the disease.

I have less than 15 seconds.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Part of the problem is doctors don`t know enough about addiction.

PINSKY: I absolutely agree with that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are the exception, Dr. Drew, but so many don`t.

PINSKY: And - but I do lecture in medical schools and we`re bringing it up. It`s getting better. It was awful when I was a student, I got to tell you. We`re getting better. We got a long way to go.

Go to for all the latest trial news and much more.

Next, a teenager is accused of killing his parents in their own home and then having a party right there. Tonight, we have truly shocking police videotape from partygoers. I will explain this behavior and what the heck went on here after the break.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said that I know Tyler`s been saying for a couple of weeks he was going to kill his parents, and he`s like - and he said to me, you know, "Wouldn`t it be cool if I killed my parents and had a party?" And everybody thought, you know - everybody thought the kid was just playing.




PINSKY (on-camera): A chilling update on a shocking story. A teen allegedly bludgeons his parents to death with a claw hammer, then throws a house party. Police interview video shows horrifying reaction from the suspect`s friends. I`m going to look at what motivates all of this.

And of course, later, don`t forget, we have the Bieber story. The teen sensation says he never met the woman who claims he got her pregnant. So, why we`re hearing reports his girlfriend, Selena Gomez, just dumped him. Is it all celebrity obsession or maybe the split? I`m not sure what this may all end up being, but, it sounds what we`re talking about first here, a horror movie, but sadly it is not.

Last July, 17-year-old Tyler Hadley sent out a Facebook message to his friends inviting them to a house party at his home. As his guests arrived, Tyler was allegedly cleaning up a crime scene. According to police, he had bludgeoned his parents to death with a claw hammer just hours earlier. In this just released police videos, Tyler Hadley had the friends, gave a chilling account of that evening. Have a look.


PINSKY (voice-over): It was a brutal, merciless killing. That`s what police told reporters after learning that 17-year-old Tyler Hadley had allegedly killed his parents with a claw hammer, hid their bodies in a bedroom, and then had friends over for a party. During the party, police say Hadley couldn`t keep the horrendous secret to himself and told a few friends what he had done.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude, I might go to prison. I might go away for life. I don`t know, dude. I`m freaking out right now. I`m like, dude, what are you talking about? He said dude, I know you`re not going to believe me. No one will believe me. I freaking killed somebody.

PINSKY: Tyler`s best friend was also at the party. He didn`t believe his friend had murdered his parents. He claims Tyler told him to search for himself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After he told me, I didn`t believe him, because he`s been my best friend forever, I would never suspect anything like this. I opened the door, I saw bloody sheets piled everywhere. I saw broken pictures with blood on them. When I looked down, I saw his dad`s leg.

PINSKY: Word quickly spread throughout the party as Tyler`s friends stumbled upon the apparent crime scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve seen blood. And I took step back. He was like do you see that? I said, what? He said, do you see that leg? I`m like what? I stepped back, I`m looking like this. Pretty sure I`ve seen it. Now, I`m freaking out.

PINSKY: Responding to an anonymous tip, the next day, police found the bodies of 54-year-old Blake Hadley and 47-year-old Mary Joe Hadley dead on the floor of their bedroom with a hammer between their bodies.


PINSKY (on-camera): Tyler is currently in a Florida jail awaiting trial on two counts of first-degree murder. With me to talk about this case is criminal defense attorney, Michelle Suskauer and clinical psychologist, Michelle Golland.

Now, ladies, you`re both Michelle, so, I`m going to have to say Michelle G and Michelle S or just look alive (ph).


PINSKY: Now, Michelle G, Tyler`s friends say they`ve never seen him be violent, and yet. this is profound violence. What do you think it is?

MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, clearly, it sounds or allegedly, he had been talking about having this house party.

PINSKY: A week before.

GOLLAND: A week before and harming his parents.

PINSKY: Right.

GOLLAND: But the other issue is is that it seems that he was also on ecstasy.

PINSKY: There was some allegation of him having taken two hits prior to the party. But, you know, this is not a part time thing, ecstasy. People do a lot of it.

GOLLAND: Yes. Yes.

PINSKY: And to me, too, you`re bringing up drugs where you`re going, and that`s absolutely where I would go with this. And in fact, in my world, when somebody does bizarre violent behavior now, well, if they`ve been using speed all along, then it makes sense.


PINSKY: But bath salts, there`s this thing called bath salts now you all should be aware of. They`re not actually bath salts, we just call that. You can buy them in head shops. I believe, in some states, they`re still legal.


PINSKY: There`s also an artificial cannabis, an artificial pot out there. Certainly, the bath salt is way worse. I`ve seen horrible violent behavior, bizarre violent behavior.


PINSKY: But I`ve seen weird stuff, too, from the cannabis.


PINSKY: So, you`re going the same --

GOLLAND: Well, yes. The same direction and ecstasy usually has this reputation that it`s sort of heightened contentment, and you know, it`s often used for sexual enhancement and stuff like that.


GOLLAND: But the other thing that it can do if there`s an over dose experience is it can cause depersonalization and derealization.


GOLLAND: So, that`s that sense that like what is happening is not real.

PINSKY: It`s a dream.


PINSKY: Like it`s a dream.

GOLLAND: It`s a dream.

PINSKY: But they also, again, (INAUDIBLE) it`s a relative of methamphetamine. methamphetamine is the drug of violence.


PINSKY: So, you could potentially see that. Now, had Tyler been planning this horrific act is really kind of the question here. So, listen as one of Tyler`s friends tells police he was thinking of murdering his parents and then throwing a party. This is what we`re referring to. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had been saying for a couple of weeks he was going to kill his parents. And he said to me wouldn`t it be cool if I killed my parents and had a party. And, everybody thought the kid was just playing.


PINSKY: Now, Michelle Suskauer, you know that kind of allegation sounds like premeditation. Is that how the legal system would look at it?

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And certainly, that`s how the state attorney is looking at it. Originally, they charged him with second-degree murder, and then, they brought this before a grand jury who returned an indictment of first-degree murder.

And certainly, you know, statements that he may made to other people, the way that the bodies were found, the crime scene itself, certainly, lends itself to the fact that this looked pretty planned in advance. Premeditated as opposed to secondary murder, which is more of a depraved mind.

PINSKY: Now, Michelle -- Michelle S. I`m sorry. Michelle S, people can plan murders in an altered state. You know, in a drug-induced state, they can still plan a murder. My question is two fold, A, does that make any difference to the law? And B, have you ever seen anything like this?

SUSKAUER: Well, I -- I -- certainly, every murder is horrific. And certainly, we see murders down here in Florida and across the country where people are under the influence, and you know this. People are under the influence of these horrific drugs, and they commit these crimes that are completely outside of themselves.

And that`s something that a defense attorney like myself or the defense attorney, the public defender who`s defending him, is going to be able to argue here in order to try to get a jury to find him guilty of a lesser offense in terms of him being under the influence of whatever it is he was under the influence that evening, because he was acting completely out of character.

So -- and that makes a very big difference because if he was found guilty of first-degree murder, he`s facing mandatory life in prison.

PINSKY: Well, slow down, Michelle Suskauer. You mean people do drugs in Florida? I`m stunned.

SUSKAUER: Not a lot. Not a lot. Just a few.

PINSKY: Oh, really, not a lot? I get -- listen --

SUSKAUER: I`m kidding.

PINSKY: I have to see first hand what goes on here, but it`s a close second to Florida, trust me. I hope you guys are doing better with the pain bills down there.


SUSKAUER: With the pills and the meth problems that we certainly have a significant, significant problem in Florida.

PINSKY: And so, Michelle, you know, Michelle G., Michelle Golland, people -- and young people particularly, they don`t perceive the potential risk of these subtances.


PINSKY: And you and I see where it goes. They see, you know, they see it in a short-term horizon where their young friends don`t necessarily have consequences.

GOLLAND: Right. Absolutely.

PINSKY: We see this all the time.

GOLLAND: And the other thing, Dr. Drew, that I think so important about this story is that, people need to mettle (ph) more. The kid who --

PINSKY: You mean the parents they do.

GOLLAND: And the kids.

PINSKY: The other kids.

GOLLAND: If you have friends that are talking about killing their parents and you`ve maybe seen a change in mood in your friend or there`s really something like real anger at their parents.


GOLLAND: Then, you know what, tell your parents. Be concerned. I think we sit here often, Dr. Drew, and we`re like why didn`t anybody say anything. And I think we need to be take care of our neighbors more. Take care of our friends more.

PINSKY: But the young people are afraid of being labeled a nark or selling somebody out.


PINSKY: There`s a giant distance between helping somebody in their disease state where they`re going to end up in a horrible place and being a confidant. Those are two different things. If you hear somebody hurt, doing things illegal, hurt (ph) somebody else or hurt themselves, you take aggressive action.

I don`t care if they say that. Seven out of 10 days, every time you hear it, you take it very seriously. You agree with me?

GOLLAND: Absolutely. And I think what I found so frightening, anyway, about the situation is that it wasn`t reported until the next morning. And so -- and it was done anonymously. So, even those kids who all knew, nobody went home.

PINSKY: That`s scary.

GOLLAND: And said to their mom or dad --


GOLLAND: I saw this, or this is what they were saying, and I want to help us as parents to talk to our teenagers about like the ramifications --


GOLLAND: -- of this. It`s very important.

PINSKY: Yes. Thank you very much. Both Michelles, I thank you for being here.

And next, we have breaking news in the Justin Bieber controversy. I will tell you if a 17-year-old will be able to handle what is undoubtedly going to be some difficult times ahead.



MATT LAUER, NBC ANCHOR: There`s a lot of good that comes with celebrity, you know that. There`s also a pretty white hot spotlight.


LAUER: And you found yourself under it recently with headlines. There`s someone filing a paternity suit.

BIEBER: Exactly.

LAUER: Saying you`re the father of her three-month-old son. What would you like to say about that?


PINSKY: Well, you`re going to have to wait to hear what he has to say about that. That was Justin Bieber on the "Today" show this morning. He found himself in a he said/she said battle. Mariah Yeater says she had sex with Justin Bieber in a Staple Center backstage bathroom last year.

She was 19, he was 16. This was -- now, in July, she gave birth to a baby boy that she insists is his. Here is the pop star this morning on the "Today" show reacts to that allegation that he is the father. Watch.


LAUER: Pretty white hot spotlight.

BIEBER: Of course.

LAUER: And you found yourself under it recently with headlines. There`s someone filing a paternity suit.

BIEBER: Exactly.

LAUER: Saying you`re the father of her three-month-old son. What would you like to say about that?

BIEBER: I`d just like to say basically that none of those allegations are true, and I know that I`m going to be a target, but I`m never going to be a victim. You know, I think it`s crazy because every night after the show, I`ve gone right from the stage right to my car. So, it`s crazy that some people want to makeup such false allegations. But, to set the record straight, none of it is true.


PINSKY: All right. So, he is setting the record straight. I think there is a way to actually set the record straight. So, who is telling the truth here? There could be serious consequences for one or both of them.

Joining me to discuss this, Michelle Suskauer stays with me. She`s a criminal defense attorney. Mark Edgar Stephens, a body language specialist. He`s going to analyze what we just saw Justin do there, and Dylan Howard, senior executive editor of "Star" magazine and senior editor of

Dylan, the first sign of those consequences were reported exclusively by you just a few hours ago. What is the breaking news?

DYLAN HOWARD, SR. EXECUTIVE EDITOR, STAR: Well, there are conflicting reports coming out of the Justin Bieber camp. While he is denying it, other people close to the teen pop star are saying that he has split from his girlfriend, his girlfriend of eight months, Selena Gomez. The Disney star is currently (ph) in Europe at the moment. She`s hosting the MTV Video Music Awards in Europe at the weekend.

There`s been no word from her camp at this point. But as I say, very conflicting stories. Bieber`s camp denying the allegations that she dumped him, but at the same time, well and truly, the eye of the storm has centered around Justin Bieber as he continues a publicity tour for his forthcoming album.

PINSKY: Now, Dylan, I know you swim in some deep waters out there, so I`m going to ask you to spill. Tell us what you know. I mean, for instance, why is Bieber avoiding the paternity test if this is all nonsense? It`d be very simple to set the record straight, right?

HOWARD: Indeed. And I can tell you tonight, Dr. Drew, that Justin Bieber has engaged a top Hollywood attorney who is acting on his behalf in this matter. Whether or not, though, he does do the DNA test remains to be seen. That is the one piece of evidence that could categorically reject Mariah Yeater`s claims.

If he submits to that DNA test, it will scientifically confirm once and for all whether he is the father of Baby Tristan. Whether or not he does that, though, remains to be seen. What we do know is that the court has set down a date for December 15th at which time Bieber must attend court.

and I get the feeling, though, and I have no real confirmation on this, but I get the feeling that what will be taking place right now is that this top Hollywood attorney would be maneuvering with Bieber`s camp to try and sort this matter out perhaps before that court date to avoid a potentially embarrassing scenario dragging on.

PINSKY: By maneuver, you mean, a purchase?

HOWARD: No, I mean, if it is indeed (INAUDIBLE) settle the case. What we don`t know, though, is whether or not she is telling the truth, Mariah Yeater. The court hasn`t tested those claims. But what I say as maneuvering, he may submit to a paternity test behind the scenes to sort this out once and for all.

PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. Now, Michelle Suskauer, you`re a criminal defense attorney. Help me figure out the legal ramifications for both parties, because he was underage at the time she`s alleging they had sex, right?

SUSKAUER: That`s right. Be careful what you ask for.

PINSKY: Right. If she proves paternity --

SUSKAUER: Right. That`s right. That`s right. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. So, it`s a double edged sword literally because she is, you know, wanting to file this claim or is filing this claim against him, and yet, she was 19, and he was allegedly 16 at the time. So, she could possibly be prosecuted or definitely investigated for some sort of statutory rape situation, because again, she was the age of majority, and (INAUDIBLE) minor.

So, very, very interesting situation. But certainly, what Justin Bieber`s lawyers are doing right now is evaluating this, trying to make this go away, either by a settlement or by a dismissal, or if this obviously did not happen, by taking a paternity test and making this go away as quickly as possible.

PINSKY: You know, Michelle, one of the things an attorney out here in California told me is that in order to bring this kind of issues to court with, you know, sex with an underage individual, the underage individual has to be willing to testify, and that could be sort of something that he uses to negotiate. He`ll say I won`t testify against you if we put this thing behind us.

But Mark, I want to go to you right. You looked at the footage. You looked at all the footage of him.


PINSKY: You looked at what he said on "Today" show this morning. You told me you also studied other footage of him.


PINSKY: What do you think is going on? Is he lying is really the question?

STEPHENS: OK. In watching the entire clip on the "Today" show, there are certain things that Justin Bieber does that we call body language leakage. Leakage just means when you`re showing signs that could be called deceptive. You know, shuffling your hands, stammering with your voice, sometimes.

PINSKY: He`s just uncomfortable --

STEPHENS: Exactly. Exactly. So, I have to establish a baseline. So, I went back and I looked at five or six different interviews. He`s a 16-year-old kid. This is what he does all the time. He constantly shrugs his shoulders. He stumbles over his words. He`s always fumbling.

He`s a 16-year-old kid. So, we look for the default, and the default is if he`s showing signs of guilt, shame, or embarrassment. While he`s there with Matt Lauer and Matt Lauer, by the way, did a very great job, because he asked him very pointedly and he asked him in a way that an authority figure would if he was guilty, and he shows no --

PINSKY: Let`s show that footage up again.


PINSKY: Just put it alongside Mark here. Come on now. Let`s get that footage --


PINSKY: We`ll see Justin reacting. There he is. So, we`re going to -- do you see him kind of shuffling. Hold on a second. Mark, here is what I`m going to do.


PINSKY: We`re going to look at this right now together and look at him kind of shuffling. He`s looking Matt in the eye. He`s looking away when he answers the question. He`s shifting back and forth on his feet. He shrugs the shoulders. These are all the things you`re looking at, right?


PINSKY: OK. I`m going to have you -- we`re going to go across the break.


PINSKY: I`m going to make my audience wait until we get through this break, and you can tell us, is that all signs of him lying or not.


PINSKY: All right. Now, next, a closer look at this interview as we said with Mark. He`s going to tell us whether or not Justin Bieber is lying in that video.


PINSKY: Mariah Yeater gave birth to a boy in July. She claims Justin Bieber is the father. Bieber representatives are calling the claims malicious and false, and he, himself, called the whole thing, quote, "crazy," on the "Today" show. So, let`s take a look again at Bieber on the "Today" show this morning, and then, Mark is going to analyze this for me.


LAUER: Pretty white hot spotlight.

BIEBER: Of course.

LAUER: And you found yourself under it recently with headlines. There`s someone filing a paternity suit.

BIEBER: Exactly.

LAUER: Saying you`re the father of her three-month-old son. What would you like to say about that?

BIEBER: I`d just like to say basically that none of those allegations are true, and I know that I`m going to be a target, but I`m never going to be a victim. You know, I think it`s crazy because every night after the show, I`ve gone right from the stage right to my car. So, it`s crazy that some people want to makeup such false allegations. But, to set the record straight, none of it is true.


PINSKY: Now, Mark Edgar Stephens who is body language expert. Clearly, that was a rehearsed statement.


PINSKY: But you can`t rehearse the body language.

STEPHENS: That`s right.

PINSKY: We looked at it together before the break. What do you see?

STEPHENS: OK. So, he did stumble on that word, but obviously, he wanted to get in there, look, I`m not going to be a victim. There`s one thing in his micro expression which shows up -- the micro expression is what shows up on the face without any conscious choice. He keeps raising the eyebrows, which is a show of surprise.

So, when he`s talking about all of this, there is still a little bit of surprise that this is happening for him.


STEPHENS: So, again, what I`m looking for in the body language leakage, because he is showing signs of nervousness. He`s a 16-year-old kid on national television with all this screaming people around him.

PINSKY: And a horrible allegation.

STEPHENS: In a horrible allegation. So, I`m looking for, is there any shame, guilt, or embarrassment, especially when someone as strong as Matt Lauer comes at him and there are no signs of that. So, if I had to put my, you know, my reputation on watching what`s happening there, either the kid is a sociopath and we don`t know it, which I don`t think is true.

PINSKY: I don`t think so. Yes.

STEPHENS: Because we`ve seen plenty of those on the show as well.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

STEPHENS: Or he`s telling the truth and he`s really as confused about it as a lot of the rest of us.

PINSKY: So, Dylan Howard, there you go. You can put that on this evening. Can you do that for us?

HOWARD: We will, Dr. Drew.


PINSKY: Imagine, it`s already out, I guess.

HOWARD: I disagree with the element of surprise. I disagree with the element of surprise.

PINSKY: Because?

HOWARD: Because I can tell you tonight that Justin Bieber`s camp has been aware of these allegations dating back as long as six months. So, this isn`t come as any surprise to him. And it strikes me as surprising that Bieber`s camp wasn`t more prepared for this.

PINSKY: Maybe that`s what he`s surprised about, that he`s actually having to address it on TV -- Mark.

STEPHENS: Let me just give you a point of clarification.

PINSKY: Twenty seconds.

STEPHENS: When I`m saying surprised is not surprised likes he`s hearing it for the first time. It`s -- what he`s showing is, wow, this is what`s going on. Wow, this is a big deal. Wow, this is something unexpected. So, it`s not surprise to the allegations. It`s surprise that he`s having to deal with all of this. We make sure I`m clear about that.

PINSKY: Thank you guys. Thank you, Dylan. Thank you, Mark. And again, Michelle Suskauer, thank you for joining us this half hour. I appreciate it. And thank you.

A few words before we go about the Conrad Murray trial, and something in common with the Casey Anthony trial, as a matter of fact. And that is that both the defendant and the victim in this case are becoming sort of cartoon characters, and I think we need to remember, Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson, human beings.

This is something I heard out here on the street if they want us to remember, not cartoon characters. There are children involved here, Michael Jackson`s children. They`re going to be traumatized the rest of their life. This creates a lot of emotion, a lot of drama. There`s a lot at stake.

Let`s all take a deep breath and let the process play out. The jurors have heard every word and every witness. They seem to take this very seriously. We`ll see what they decide next week. In the meantime, thank you for watching, and I will see you next time.