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Conrad Murray Found Guilty for Involuntary Manslaughter
Aired November 7, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled action find Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter, in violation of Penal Code Section 192 Subsection B, alleged victim, Michael Joseph Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People would ask that the defendant be remanded into custody. He is - as the court is well aware, he`s had over approximately two-and-a-half years to prepare for today`s date. He`s now a convicted felon and has been deemed the causative factor in Michael Jackson`s death.
At this time, we would ask that he be remanded with no bail pending sentencing.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Harsh.
And tonight, a jury reaches a guilty verdict in the Michael Jackson death trial. Reaction was swift and highly emotional outside of the L.A. County Courtroom where the trial unfolded. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, yes, yes. They`re handcuffing him. He`s going to jail. Justice has been done finally! Woo!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All eyes remain on the Jackson Family whose presence in the courtroom over the past six weeks did not go unnoticed. Take a look.
JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: Justice was served, yes. There wasn`t enough time though.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What would you say for Michael?
J. JACKSON: Michael`s - Michael`s with us. Michael`s with us.
JANET JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: Thank you so much. I`m just happy it`s over with. Nothing will bring him back, but I`m happy he was found guilty.
PINSKY: We have an excellent panel of insiders with us tonight.
HLN`s Jane Velez-Mitchell is joining us shortly from the courthouse. She spoke to the Jackson Family right after the verdict. I`ve also got the host of "IN SESSION" on TruTV, Ryan Smith, sitting right beside me. Star prosecution witness Dr. Alon Steinberg, he`s joining me at the table as well, and I`ve got Conrad Murray`s attorney, Charles Peckham. He is here.
We`re going to talk to everyone over the next half hour.
But first, I`m going to start with Ryan to give us the latest. What`s the latest?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Oh, my goodness, what a day it was.
PINSKY: Yes. What a day.
SMITH: And, you know --
PINSKY: Quite a couple - a couple of weeks. This is a culmination of a whole thing.
SMITH: Exactly. And everybody has been waiting for this moment. I`ve got to tell you, we were all on pins and needles right here in the studio waiting for the verdict to be announced. Everybody gathered at the courthouse.
But I`ve got to tell you, the big impact of all of this, this guilty verdict, yes, Dr. Murray goes to jail, and you see the family, there -
PINSKY: Not to jail, he is swept off to jail immediately.
SMITH: And that was a shock. The fact that he was cuffed right in court and brought to jail, not remanded instead of let go was a shock.
PINSKY: And you said to me that when he was being remanded, they cuffed him. Didn`t even wait until the end of the statement.
SMITH: The judge said you are remanded, continued talking. He was cuffed right there as he was still talking. That was part of the surprise.
And so he was led out of the courtroom. He is now going to stay in jail. This is not a Lindsay Lohan situation or a Paris Hilton situation. He stays -
PINSKY: So this - he is more dangerous than Lindsay?
PINSKY: He`s dangerous to the public.
SMITH: And that`s part of the thing about remand. You`re either a flight risk, you`re a danger to the public. And I was a little surprised by that. It is the judge`s call, though.
But at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, is there a winner in all this? I don`t really think so. I think it becomes a tough situation.
The Jackson Family, yes, there`s some vindication, but they still have lost Michael Jackson. Those children still lost their father.
PINSKY: Ryan, that is exactly the point. This is a very sad situation. There`s sort of no winners, nothing good about any of this.
I know Michael Jackson`s fans get upset with me when I say I feel sorry for Dr. Murray. I feel sorry for his family. Well, I keep saying is these are two lives that collided, one man in jail, one man dead, this is an awful situation.
We can all feel at least justice was served. That`s a good thing. Hopefully these orphans who no longer have a father, I mean, great kids, by the way. I think we all agree on that. We`re all worried about them when they were growing up when they`re being carted around with masks and blankets over their heads or whatnot, but turns great kids. Hopefully they can get on with their lives, but they get on without their father.
I want you all to watch again. And this time, I want you to pay attention to the look on Conrad Murray`s face as the verdict was read. This is really kind of sad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant, Conrad Robert Murray, guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter in violation of Penal Code Section 192 Subsection B, alleged victim, Michael Joseph Jackson, alleged date of June 25th, 2009.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s like he`s out of body when the -
PINSKY: -- when the verdict is being read. Is it true the defense attorney Ed Chernoff became emotional?
SMITH: Yes. He became more emotional than Dr. Murray did. You know, I spoke to Dr. Murray`s pastor earlier today, said he had been speaking to him all along. And he indicated that Dr. Murray, not that he expected something like this, but at least that he didn`t have a lot of outward showing of emotion. And maybe he had prepared himself for it to go either way. And you`ve got to do that as a defendant in a way, because you never know what`s going to happen.
PINSKY: I want to bring in Alon Steinberg, again, who`s sitting at the table here with us. You`re a cardiologist. You were a critical witness in this - in the prosecution. You were the one that pointed out that in his interrogation, which is I held up that document every day here, he condemned himself.
DR. ALON STEINBERG, CARDIOLOGIST, TESTIFIED FOR PROSECUTION: Absolutely.
PINSKY: The things he said he did. What I was telling you off the air was the things he did before the resuscitation I thought were outlandish, and you felt even the things he did after the resuscitation.
STEINBERG: Absolutely. I outlined a lot of that stuff. I mean, first of all, providing propofol at all was egregious.
PINSKY: Let`s start with that. And this is the thing we - I`ll go back to, the propofol. But, again, I guess Michael had been receiving this for a long, long time. I`ve been hearing - I`m hearing rumors of years of use.
STEINBERG: Just because he has been receiving it all this time, it`s just not OK for Conrad Murray to give it to him just because everyone else is giving it to him, that`s just egregious.
STEINBERG: And then, you know, as I said, you know, when he was giving it in a home and no monitoring, not the right equipment, no medications, not even an assistant, no way to call for help, and then as you said, you know, how he responded to the code, you know, you can get into it so much, but the way that we respond to a code is completely different from what he did. You know, he had an Ambu bag. We try and resuscitate with Ambu bag to give oxygen.
PINSKY: You can start with that. I mean, it`s like - it`s one thing he said he could - he`d never done mouth to mouth before, which I thought was bizarre. I`ve done it many times. But in a hospital they have these bags called an Ambu bag.
STEINBERG: No one has ever given mouth to mouth in a hospital. I`ve never seen that.
PINSKY: I have. But before the HIV days - I`m old enough to have done that. Before the HIV days, we used to do that. Thank you all, by the way. It`s a long, long time ago!
But, yes, but now we have Ambu bags. We have respiratory therapy system.
STEINBERG: Everyone there I had never seen someone give mouth to mouth. We just use these Ambu bags and what they are it`s this little sealed bag with a big air chamber.
PINSKY: And he had an Ambu bag sitting at the bedside.
STEINBERG: He had one, but he didn`t - he didn`t look like he knew how to use it.
STEINBERG: And he didn`t explain in his own investigation, he didn`t explain the proper way, you know, to run a code, you know?
And we - we give sedation all the time as cardiologists, not propofol, but we give sedation and we know how to act when someone stops breathing. You know, we tilt the airway. We have the Ambu bag. We`re ready to use it.
PINSKY: You`re ready to use it (ph). Yes.
STEINBERG: We give reversal agents if we have to.
STEINBERG: And if someone is in trouble, we either call for help or we intubate the patient and he wasn`t prepared for that at all, and he was given a dangerous drug, a very strong anesthetic and he should have been absolutely prepared for that.
And then the other thing I want to say, he was giving - when someone has a respiratory arrest and stopped breathing, we don`t give just compressions.
STEINBERG: The heart is working. The heart is circulating.
STEINBERG: So he wasted his time. Instead of not calling 911, he just started giving chest compressions.
PINSKY: Which does nothing. And I would say also to point out to people, the combination of the benzodiazepines, the Ativan, (INAUDIBLE) plus the propofol, extremely dangerous combination.
Jane, did you want to ring in here on this conversation?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Well, yes, absolutely. I think this is a wakeup call for all the doctor feel goods out there. And as a recovering alcoholic with 16 years of sobriety, I have a lot of sober friends who have talked about their past as doctor shoppers and how they work the system, and they go from one doctor to another, and they pick them in different parts of whatever city or county, they`re living in and they know to get - you get it insured. They know to change the doses.
And they`re working the system. I knew this is a big problem. And I hope this is a wakeup call for the country that we`ve got to look at this issue.
PINSKY: And, Jane, I wanted to hit something headlong that you and I addressed kind of gently on Nancy Grace`s show a few minutes ago, was that people immediately get angry or defensive that, oh, my goodness, if I have legitimate pain needs, I`m not going to get my pain medication. Of course we`re not saying that. Of course we aren`t.
But even those people that seem to have legitimate pain need, if there`s any question of addiction, that needs to be addressed aggressively with a team. And, Jane, you as well, as I know, that that happens all the time as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this is (INAUDIBLE) the doctors -
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and also people go in.
PINSKY: Go ahead, finish, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: People go in often for legitimate reasons and then they develop an addiction and go back for illegitimate reasons. So it`s not like they always start out illegitimately.
PINSKY: Well, and not even knowing. And, Jane, not even - you`re right, and not even knowing that`s what they`re doing.
I`ve got to go out at 15 seconds.
STEINBERG: That`s exactly right. And I think this is a great education for doctors that we need to practice within our boundaries, and now we`re not - you know, when someone comes to me with an obvious addiction problem, I`m more educated now just from this trial that I have - I can tell the patients, listen, this is outside my - my expertise. I need to send you to a specialist.
STEINBERG: Because people ask me all the time as a cardiologist, oh, can you just fill up my Percocet? Can you fill up my Ativan? Now I have the ammunition -
PINSKY: And now you have the ammunition, which you feel from treating is righteous indignation from the patient, which is nonsense. You should - right. How dare you say that? Nonsense.
You saw what happened to Michael. That`s your ammunition now.
Next, he was the star witness for the prosecution. He is sitting right here with me as a cardiologist and a peer. And he slammed every move Conrad Murray made the day Michael Jackson died. There he is on the stands speaking directly to the jury and he`s going to stay with us and continue this conversation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant, Conrad Robert Murray, guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter.
J. JACKSON: Justice was served.
LA TOYA JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: Thank you, America. Thank all the fans. Thank you, prosecuting team. Walgren, you were great. Michael loves everybody out here. I love him. We all love him. And guess what? He was in that courtroom and that`s why victory was served.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This strong, powerful message that this sort of conduct does rise to the level of criminal negligence and to the extent someone dies as a result of them playing the role of Dr. Feelgood, they will be held accountable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our sympathies go out to the Jackson Family at this time for the loss that they have suffered, not a pop icon, but a son and a brother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Very sad. Twenty-two days of testimony, 49 witnesses and one final verdict. Guilty tonight.
During week three of the trial, Dr. Alon Steinberg, cardiologist testified for the prosecution. Dissected Murray`s actions the day Michael died, including Murray`s decision to leave Jackson`s side. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEINBERG: When you monitor a patient, you never leave their side, especially after giving propofol. It`s - it`s like leaving a baby that`s sleeping on your kitchen countertop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Is it just, Dr. Steinberg, that, as a cardiologist, he became too cavalier with the use of propofol for minor procedures or somebody else indoctrinated him into this (INAUDIBLE)?
STEINBERG: No, someone did indoctrinate him.
STEINBERG: He - he learned - what happened was, the first time he did it, another physician used his office, and he saw how, you know, simple it was, and apparently -
PINSKY: It was a plastic surgeon, as I remember.
STEINBERG: It was a plastic surgeon, and that he`s -
PINSKY: Yes. And he`d been receiving this from multiple physicians.
STEINBERG: And - and that`s what happens. You know, here - here you got a big star coming up to you, and see - he shows you how easy it is to do, just in someone`s office, and he says, you know what? I`m a cardiologist. And all doctors, especially cardiologists, we think we could do anything sometimes, beyond our boundaries, and -
PINSKY: But isn`t that really where he went off the rails, right exactly there? Thinking - it`s a - it`s an arrogance. It`s an arrogance of being a super specialist.
STEINBERG: Absolutely. We - it - that was a big problem. We always have - you know, we always want to help and, you know, do other things, but he should have just practiced within his - his standard, with his specialty.
And I say that - I`ve heard - I`ve heard people say this, and I`ve said this, too. It`s like me going into your house and taking out your gallbladder and do an operation. You know, I can probably do it. I did some in med school, et cetera, but do you really want a cardiologist operating on you -
PINSKY: Well -
STEINBERG: You - so you - you want an anesthesiologist giving you propofol overnight.
PINSKY: Of course, and - and within and anesthesia cart, in a hospital setting, with this whole institutional sort of stuff (ph).
STEINBERG: (INAUDIBLE), but we - we get so - you know, we look at it, we see the anesthesiologist giving it, so that`s simple. I could do it, and - and he - guess what? He got away with it for 50 days without a problem. And then -
PINSKY: Well, not without a problem. You notice on his autopsy, on his lungs, on autopsy, he had so much what`s called lung collapse, atelectasis it`s called. He was - actually had chronic bronchiectasis and fibrosis from hypoventilation, from not ventilating adequately for years. I mean, that`s how many years he have been getting inadequate ventilation from propofol.
Ryan, you`re looking in disbelief.
SMITH: My goodness.
PINSKY: You didn`t know that? Yes.
SMITH: Yes. Well, it was part of - you know, just thinking about it, us not being doctors, as lawyers, we look at it - we look for the primary cause of death and the manner of death, but there are so many other things that didn`t come out.
Another thing that didn`t come out is this environment wasn`t sterile. There wasn`t a lot of talk about that. But I`ve got to think, somebody getting this kind of drug at a home setting -
PINSKY: Not just sterile, but if - but if somebody who is a self - who has been treated for addiction - again, once you`re treated for addiction, meet criteria for addiction, you`re in a hospital for addiction, you have a lifelong condition, like asthma. And he is - he came forward, Michael himself came forward and talked about it in the early `90s.
Leaving drugs around that person - that part - I mean, he had all these drugs. And then, not making phone calls to the other doctors to see what they were doing.
And, by the way, Ryan, I don`t know how you feel about this, but Dr. Klein talking about giving him Demerol and treating his addiction, and - and, to your point, Dr. Steinberg, it`s the same thing. It`d be like me treating bullous pemphigoid or something. As a - as an internist, I wouldn`t - a dermatologist should do. A dermatologist should not be treating addiction, right?
I mean, his claims, that he helped out with addiction. That`s - that`s again, another moon - a moon rock dropping to earth.
STEINBERG: This is a great lesson for doctors is that we need to practice within our boundaries.
PINSKY: And appropriately, in a hospital setting. We actually assess for appropriate consulting, believe it or not.
SMITH: You know, that`s interesting.
PINSKY: Dermatologists don`t get assessed (INAUDIBLE) work in hospitals.
STEINBERG: We do a lot of peer review, and I think in our hospital, when we do peer review, a lot of the mistakes that doctors make is really taking too long to ask for help, especially the hospitalists. You know, why didn`t you call cardiology? Why didn`t you call nephrology?
PINSKY: When you`re - when you`re already a cardiologist and looking for something down, either you`ve taken on all the responsibility, you`re sort of the top of the food chain. You`re supposed to consult down. Maybe you don`t think about that as a -
Jane, you wanted to say something?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I was going to say that also, Dr. Conrad Murray pretending he was an addictionologist, and that he was going to be able to wean Michael Jackson off of propofol. And if he really wanted to help Michael Jackson, he would have brought in some real addiction specialists, such as yourself, and gotten him help.
And there`s also this confusion about the insomnia versus the addiction. Every time, out there on the street today, when we started talking about the addiction issue, people would turn around and scream, no, he had insomnia. He wasn`t an addict.
But what created the insomnia? Insomnia is not a normal human condition, and I think it is a good question to ask, did the demerol withdrawal create the - the insomnia? So is it addiction related?
PINSKY: Jane, I could not agree with you more. In my opinion, again, at a distance, I don`t know these people, but it seems pretty clear to me, insomnia is a symptom like fever. It`s not a diagnosis. But if somebody`s receiving opiates on a regular basis and receiving benzodiazepines, can`t sleep at night when they`re not taking the medicine, they`re in drug withdrawal.
A great way to treat drug withdrawal? Propofol. It stops it in its tracks and lets people sleep comfortably. When you come off the propofol, though, you`re back on the withdrawal, you`re back on the meds you`re withdrawing from, and it is a horrible cycle where people feel miserable and hot and cold and panicky. Remember all the things he was complaining about? Perfect withdrawal symptoms.
Everything about the Conrad Murray trial, guys, and all the post- verdict interviews are right at your fingertips. Go to HLNtv.com, check it out. It`s your most thorough source for the whys and hows of the trial.
Gentlemen, thank you. Ryan, thank you. Dr. Steinberg, and thank you, Jane, for joining me this evening.
Attorney for Conrad Murray`s civil case is here. We`re going to get his reaction to the verdict.
And later, I will give you my final word on this trial and what we should really be talking about. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just justice, and we`re thrilled. But, still, Mr. and Mrs. Jackson and their family are leaving today without their son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give her some air. Give her some air.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Conrad Robert Murray, guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, there you go, Dr. Conrad Murray, specialized in cardiology, but tonight a convicted felon. A Los Angeles county jury of seven men and five women found Michael Jackson`s former doctor guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of the pop icon.
Charles Peckham is currently representing Conrad Murray in several upcoming suits, including Michael Jackson`s wrongful death suit filed by Michael Jackson`s father, Joe Jackson.
So, Charles, I - I got a bunch of questions for you. First of all, were you surprised by the harshness of the drug today - of the judge, rather - rather, today? He seemed really sort of especially harsh by calling Conrad Murray a danger to the public.
CHARLES PECKHAM, MURRAY`S CIVIL ATTORNEY: Well, yes. We - we were actually surprised by that.
Look, Dr. Murray is not a harm to the public. He`s a great doctor. You know, the only part of the tragedy of this is that his patients are not going to have - have him here in Houston, in Acres Homes, treating them. Frankly, Dr. - excuse me, David Walgren needs to think about the blood that is on his hands for those patients that are going to be dying in low income neighborhoods, such as Acres Homes, because of the prosecution that he led.
PINSKY: Well, you wonder if it`s going to have a chilling effect.
PINSKY: It`s something we were - we were talking about before the break, the - I was - had a cardiologist in here, and Ryan Smith was in here. We were talking about - we couldn`t stop talking about, even during the break, the fact that we worry that physicians are going to think twice before they do pro bono work and to think twice even before they go into various fields because there`s this tremendous liability now. So, I - I wonder about that, too.
But my other question is these other suits that are coming up, I mean, I think people are all shaking their head, going huh? There are more lawsuits? What are they, and will any of them go away because of this guilty verdict?
PECKHAM: Well, at this point, we know that Joe Jackson has sued for wrongful death. He`s sued Dr. - Dr. Murray, obviously, and the two practices that he - that he was running. Katherine Jackson has sued AEG.
I suspect that that`s probably the - the limit of those suits, but I think that what you`re going to see in the - in both of those cases is a broadening, because when we`re talking about civil causation, this jury in a civil case, unlike the criminal jury, is going to see a whole picture. They`re going to get to see the other doctors that were giving Michael Jackson medication.
You know, one of the things that - that kind of surprises me, Dr. Drew, is, you know, we`ve got all these medical records from Arnold Klein, and the records got to come in. We see Arnold Klein on television all weekend long, talking about what a great doctor he is and - and how he was trying to help Michael Jackson, and - and how Dr. Murray was terrible. But Arnold Klein avoided by filing motions to quash, trying to get out of testimony in the criminal case.
PINSKY: Well, and that, I think, is going to come out -
PECKHAM: (INAUDIBLE) -
PINSKY: -- in the civil cases, and we`ll be watch - just really quickly, I have 10 seconds, when are these likely to go to trial? When are we going to hear more about this? Ten seconds.
PECKHAM: It`s going to be a long time. You`re probably looking at - at late next year at the earliest.
PINSKY: OK. OK, and I agree with you, Dr. - Dr. - a dermatologist should not be treating a complex patient with substance issues any more than I should be treating a very severe dermatological problem.
Thank you, Mr. Peckham. I appreciate it.
And next, we will talk with some of Michael`s closest friends about the verdict and what it means for the family. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s going to jail. Justice has been served!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Murray finally got handcuffs on him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man needed to go to jail and he`s on his way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m happy that justice is finally served.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We gave this man a chance. He`s not even a doctor no more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, America.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice was served.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what Michael wants
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four years is not enough.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got that murder in there, give him the ride of his life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell us what you would say to America right now.
REBBIE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: Just thank you so much. I`m just happy it`s over with. Nothing will bring him back, but I`m happy he was found guilty.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: That is Rebbie Jackson, the eldest of the Jackson children outside the courtroom. An emotional day inside and outside the courtroom. Emotional when the Jackson family anxiously waited to hear Dr. Murray`s fate, and as far as the family is concerned, the jury got it right.
Here with me to talk about the case are few of Michael`s close friends, Raymone Bain, who is Michael`s former spokesman, criminal defense attorney, Brian Oxman, who once represented Michael and is currently Joe Jackson`s attorney, and Grammy-winning singer, songwriter, producer, Kenneth "Baby Face" Edmonds who collaborated with Michael on several songs. Kenny, what did you make of the verdict today?
KENNETH "BABY FACE" EDMONDS, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FRIEND AND COLLABORATOR: I thought it was just. Justice was served. But at the same time, it was a sad day, I think, as well for everyone.
PINSKY: Well, it`s funny of that you would say that. I was going to ask the same question. Do you see it the way I do that this is a giant tragedy, and there`s sort of no winners, although justice is served, two lives destroyed by what happened that one day.
EDMONDS: Yes. Two lives were destroyed, but I also believe that I don`t think it was all just on Conrad. I think that it had to be somewhat of a bigger picture because he couldn`t have done everything just himself. In terms of when you speak of the propofol and the fact that, you know, he was bringing it in, the people that were supposed to be Michael`s protectors, managers, agents, whoever was involved, they should have been aware of that as well.
And whether they were aware of it or not aware of it, it should have been their responsibility, and the fact that everything could happen --
PINSKY: Yes. It`s interesting you would say that. That`s another interesting point you`re making. La Toya had mentioned that to me several times. Brian Oxman, do you agree with what Kenny to say in here that there are many other guilty parties with blood left on their hands?
BRIAN OXMAN, JOE JACKSON`S ATTORNEY: Oh, he is absolutely right, Dr. Drew. There is no question about it. I`ve talked about this with Ramone. I`ve talked about this with the whole family. There are so many people who are involved. Today, we got a little semblance of justice.
Today, part of the puzzle was solved, but there`s a much bigger problem, and the addiction which has been the issue that everyone is talking about. Michael`s life is going to be dissected over and over again all throughout the years, and we`re going to point the fingers as to who was involved, who was pulling the strings, and most important, who was paying the money, and I think that Kenny is absolutely right.
PINSKY: Now, there was -- I think you well know a frenzy in front of the courthouse today as the crowds reacted to the verdict. We have got some footage of that crowd. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To hear guilty being said from the courtroom and seeing Conrad Murray led away was the start of justice for Michael.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The death penalty should be on the table. We don`t experiment with each other. We`re human people with decency. Dr. Murray still would always have to be known as the person who killed Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SINGING) As I turn up my collar, my feet, the wind too cold, this wind is blowing my mind. I see the kids in the street, without enough to eat. Who am I?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Raymone, does it surprise you that fans came from literally all over the world for this trial to support Michael?
RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FORMER PUBLICIST: No, it doesn`t. And you know, as I sat and watched today and over the last several weeks, I saw so many fans who Michael loved a lot, who traveled all over the world with us, who traveled to Japan, to Ireland, to London, and I saw them there as they were showing support for the late Mr. Jackson and his family.
And it was heartwarming, but I agree with Kenny and Brian Oxman. I thought about it today, and this is the day that we`ve all been waiting for, but I`m not happy. I`m really sad because, you know, as we have gotten justice thus far, you know, and I agree that maybe there`s still a lot more to be revealed and a lot of questions that are still unanswered that hopefully in the next weeks and months ahead will be.
PINSKY: Now, listen here. Listen guys, listen. I`m going to interrupt you here. I wanted to give you the windows like Nancy Grace. I keep that right there for a second, because I have questions for the three of you. You`ve thrown out some rather tantalizing suggestions here that there`s a lot more to be revealed. I want one of you to come forward and tell me what you`re talking about.
BAIN: Well, if you recall last time I was on your show, I said the same as Kenny and Brian. You know, who gave the doctor the access? Why was Michael Jackson allowed to deteriorate? Why were his family members and others who were close to him blocked with regards to access? So,
PINSKY: Right. Why was he allowed to be -- yes.
BAIN: There was justice today, but there are a lot of questions. And I think, you know, we`re happy because we`re being -- we`re happy about the hand we were dealt. We were dealt with a hand of involuntary manslaughter, not second-degree murder. We thank the judge for his harshness this afternoon by locking Conrad Murray up who was frolicking on the beaches of Malibu just a couple of days ago.
We thank the D.A., Mr. Walgren, and his staff, but I agree with Brian and Kenny. There are a lot of questions to be answered. And as I said, I mentioned these same ones, you know, months ago.
PINSKY: I hear you. Yes, you did. And I`ve got two other gentlemen there that are agreeing with you. Throw those windows up again and which of you two guys are going to give me some more information.
OXMAN: Well, you bet, Dr. Drew. The situation with Joseph Jackson I think was the most interesting. He was blocked from seeing his son by the concert promoters. You can rest assured that if Michael`s father had witnessed this drugging over night after night after night, Joe Jackson would have stopped it.
Michael Jackson would have been alive. Who paid the money? And the money was coming from the concert promoters in this case, and Michael Jackson`s always said, follow the money. If you follow the money, you`ll find out who is responsible, and I think that`s this case.
PINSKY: Brian, are there going to be some actions taken? Are we just going to be pointing fingers?
OXMAN: There are civil suits which have been filed which involve Dr. Murray as a defendant, the concert promoters as a defendant, and the people who surrounded Michael Jackson. And they bear responsibility for his death.
PINSKY: All right. Kenneth "Baby Face," last words to you. I got less than a minute. What do we need to take away from this evening?
EDMONDS: I think more than anything, the one thing about Michael, Michael was magical, and whenever he would be around anyone, people wanted to do things for him. So, I happen to think that Conrad surely could have been pulled into death, but the problem is that no matter how magical he was, he needed to be protected. His health needed to be protected, and it wasn`t.
EDMONDS: Michael always demanded the best. He always demanded the best, and in this case, he didn`t get the best. And so, that`s the saddest thing about it. It didn`t work out for him in that way.
PINSKY: You guys --
EDMONDS: People around him weren`t giving him the best treatment.
PINSKY: Kenneth, thank you. Raymone, thank you. Brian, of course, as always, thank you. And I think that last point you were making is that he was a human being and deserved good medical care. He always wanted the best, and he got very substandard, but every human deserves good care.
For goodness sakes, his kids don`t have a father because of this. Now, Dr. Murray was Michael`s doctor for three months, but Michael, apparently, had problems for three decades. Someone gave him that propofol for a long period of time. So, the question we keep asking is why is Murray the only one being held accountable. You`re hearing some of the reasons so far. We`re going to keep that conversation going and more after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man needed to go to jail, and he`s on his way. Yes! Yes! Yes! Justice for MJ!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You told Michael Jackson in response to his request for propofol, quote, "no one who cared or had your best interest at heart is going to give you this."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I did tell him that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anybody reasonable would agree with Cheryl Lynn Lee, the nurse refused to give Michael Jackson propofol. Now, when I heard Michael Jackson was given propofol the first time, we`re getting kind of used to talking about this drug, but when I first heard about it, it literally would be the same as if you said a meteorite landed outside here at city hall.
I`ll be showing you pictures of city hall again later in the show. But Jackson, apparently, used a number of (INAUDIBLE) or somebody on his behalf used them to secure prescription drugs. So, Dr. Murray was evidently one of the last doctors standing. He was the doctor for three months, but by all accounts, Jackson had trouble for quite some time.
Our guest, Dr. John Dombrowski, an anesthesiologist. He`s also a medical director of the Washington Pain Center, and in the studio with me is Dr. Robert Waldman. This is the first time he is speaking. He was a defense witness for Dr. Murray. He is an addiction specialist from Cliffside in Malibu. Listen to Michael`s good friend and dermatologist Dr. Arnold Klein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ARNOLD KLEIN, DERMATOLOGIST OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Though he had problems with the propofol many times that I intervened and I told him it was terribly dangerous and he just had to stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Dr. Waldman, I`m going to ask a couple of questions about Dr. Klein. Should a dermatologist be treating addiction without consulting with a psychiatrist or dermatologist, A, and B, if he is addicted to propofol, is Demoerol the appropriate treatment or should an addict be exposed to Demerol under any circumstances without a lot of team approach to dealing with those consequences?
Dr. ROBERT WALDMAN, ADDICTION EXPERT, TESTIFIED FOR DEFENSE: Well, I think Drew, we both know the answer to that. Number one, don`t treat addiction with more addictive medications.
PINSKY: I mean, think about how crazy that is.
WALDMAN: And for a dermatologist to be giving those doses, I mean, on one day, 375 milligrams of Demerol. And if you look again at the record as I read it into testimony, you see just progressive use, larger doses, more frequent dosing.
PINSKY: Do you agree with me that the primary cause of his insomnia, again, the symptom of insomnia was drug withdrawal?
WALDMAN: Most likely.
PINSKY: Yes, because he was getting benzodiazepine. He said he`s getting midazolam, a drug used -- another drug used for conscious sedation, intravenous drug on a daily basis?
WALDMAN: Daily Demerol and daily midazolam with escalating dozes of midazolam as well. I think most people who got two or three mg midazolam would not walk out of a doctor`s office.
PINSKY: I had it for colonoscopy about three weeks ago. I had trouble for 36 hours afterwards, and he got 8 mg the night he died in addition to all the other medicines we know about. Dr. Dombrowski, I want to go out to you for a question. 375 mg of Demerol, Dr. Klein is claiming that`s what he needed for a painful face procedure. Are you going to get significant pain control above 100 milligrams of Demerol?
DR. JOHN DOMBROWSKI, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: Well, actually, we don`t even use Demerol any more in medical practice. It`s pretty much been taken out of the hospitals because of the toxic side effects of that medication. So, we normally would use like morphine or fentanyl. I really never heard of it being used anymore.
It`s really hard to get, but you`re exactly right. You would never use that for a painful face lift. If you need to do a face lift, you get an anesthesia provider to give you that level of anesthetic or sedation that they need while the plastic surgeon or dermatologist does whatever they need to do for the patient`s care.
PINSKY: Now, Dr. Waldman and I do see people getting Demerol, because Demerol addicts love Demerol. It`s a common drug of addiction out there. But my question, though, is that Dr. Klein is claiming, oh, I had -- his pain threshold was so incredible, I had to give 375 mg. My point is, once he`s got over 100 mg, it`s no longer about the pain.
DOMBROWSKI: Well, that`s exactly right. You`re not treating pain per se. You`re treating some other issue. That`s the reason we should not use that type of medication. Also, when you do use that types of medication like narcotics, you need to look at coanalgesic therapies, maybe (INAUDIBLE), diazepine, perhaps, propofol in a surgical setting which a face lift or some sort of cosmetic procedure is, that`s normal. You just don`t keep giving opiate-based medication.
PINSKY: Dr. Waldman, do you want to comment to Dr. Dombrowski?
WALDMAN: Dr. Dombrowski --
WALDMAN: For a Botox injection, for other procedures using small needles, how about pre-medicine (ph) with EMLA cream, a topical anesthetic that if you take an hour or before the procedure will last for quite some time.
PINSKY: And do you agree with me -- do you agree with me that, I said this and people take an issue with this, they don`t quite understand what I mean. When you have somebody with a history of addiction, let`s say they`re not even active in their disease, but you expose them to an opiate, you`re putting them in harm`s way and you have to prepare for that one time. Would you agree with me?
WALDMAN: For many patients that I`m sure you`ve treated and I treat every day who are sober and have an injury and are re-exposed.
PINSKY: But appropriately give it the medicine, appropriately give them -- we`re not into people suffering. They`re appropriately getting it, but when they`re exposed, the whole thing recurs. Triggers everything. You know, are you like me that this, I can`t believe that a dermatologist and cardiologist, first of all, couldn`t identify how complex this situation was they were in, and secondly, didn`t pick up the phone and call for a consult?
WALDMAN: It`s really sad. It`s really sad. It`s a tragedy. And, again, I think we could all accept someone with a low pain threshold getting a dose of opiate analgesia for any form of procedure, even a 100 mg, but when you see it on a repeated almost daily basis, and then 200 mg, and then, 300 milligrams, and then in conjunction with midazolam or more commonly as its known Versed as sedation, just an unbelievable combination, and to think that he could actually walk out of the office after that.
PINSKY: That`s tolerance. That is tolerance. Dr. Dombrowski, you agree with what we say here and let me throw a little more fuel on the fire. He had no veins left anywhere except behind his knees and all those veins were sclerosed (ph) by doctors. Do you feel as outraged as the two of us do?
DOMBROWSKI: Well, of course. I mean, when someone you can no longer find a vein, this is what we in the hospital setting we`d seen like for patients with IV drug abuse. They`re very difficult to find a vein on. Why? Because they`ve shot up heroin or God knows what else. So, when they come to the operating room, I have nothing to work with.
And you`re exactly right. This is just continuing tolerance. More and more medication to get more and more high or make me feel just normal, and they`re going to need more and more of that. He needed to unplug, get himself into rehab, and someone need to be the physician and say no. This, we`re going in the wrong direction for your care.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right. Thank you, Dr. Dombrowski, and also, thank you, Bob for coming in here. I know it`s the first time you`ve been on television, and thank you for choosing this program --
WALDMAN: My pleasure.
PINSKY: -- and sharing ideas. But, yes, somebody needed to say no, and we`re not blaming the patient. It`s not the patient`s fault. He thought he was getting good care. He was just going by what the doctors told him to do. Come back, we`ll do some more tomorrow.
Please check out the HLN 10 on our new website, hlntv.com. You will find all the trial essentials there, and of course, more. As you can imagine, I have some words I might want to say about this whole thing, and I`ve got some wrap up thoughts as well. That`s all up next.
PINSKY: Just a minute, I`ll be giving you my wrap-up thoughts about this trial, but first, HLN`s Vinnie Politan is here. Vinnie, you covered a lot of trials. What has stuck out for you about this one?
VINNIE POLITAN, HOST, HLN`S "SPECIAL REPORT": Well, the one thing about this one is the outpouring and is the outpouring that we saw on the streets of Los Angeles but also on the social media. My goodness, I knew Michael Jackson was the most famous man in the world, but absolutely amazing tonight as hours after this verdict, still the social media burning up.
We`re going to talk about that on "Special Report" coming up, drew. Also, we`re also going to take a whole ton of phone calls tonight finding out what the folks at home are thinking, and I know everyone is fired up about this one, Drew.
PINSKY: Thanks, Vinnie. And I will join you for a few minutes on that show as well after we wrap up here.
I want to show you something, though, before I go. Here`s our favorite late night shot that picturesque city hall in downtown Los Angeles. There it is. And again, I want to thank everyone down here at "L.A. Times" where we are -- from which we are broadcasting, the people that help put this together and made this all possible.
That is that muscular construction, architecture was something characteristic of the 1930s. And here is a picture from 1928 of the city hall. Can they get more of it? The city hall under construction. There it is. Almost looks like it`s being taken from the very spot we are looking from this evening. Amazing.
And that was first building, first skyscraper in Los Angeles, and it was designed to be able to withstand, as I understand, an 8.2 earthquake, and it`s been iconic. Again, those of you that remember dragnet or Bert Dubrower (ph) executive producer, likes to point out Superman, the Daily Planet remember that iconic image.
Those of us in Los Angeles, it`s sort of symbolic of L.A., and we`ve been privileged to be in its shadow as we broadcast. OK. Now, listen, I want to give -- I want to stay tuned for the "Special Report" hosted by Vinnie in just a few minutes right after our show. And I`ve got a couple of words here before we go.
How much time do I have? Somebody tell me. Because this is hard to wrap-up in at this very short period of time. Anybody tell me how much time I have. No one is going to tell me. That`s awesome. Well, OK, excellent. Now, first of all, I think it`s appropriate -- I have a minute and a half to tell you guys to wrap up what`s been months of, please hold it right there, months of work here.
There`s a sense of relief out there, and I understand that. Let`s put some closure to this. Now that we know that Conrad Murray is guilty, has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson, but I keep reminding people yes, there are some orphans out there, and we all lost a great performer, but this is a sad situation for two men.
Two lives have collided. One is dead, the other, a convicted felon. Let`s all take a breath and not really approach this with the glee. It`s OK to have relief, but there was glee today as though we needed some sort of sacrificial catharsis for this loss we`ve all experienced here. That`s not the case.
Also remember that the fact that a physician now is potentially guilty of homicide, implication for young people are thinking about being physicians, they may think twice about that. Physicians doing pro bono work may think about it. When someone dies, they could be exceedingly vulnerable not just for malpractice, but now, for something far worse. Let`s allow Michael`s family to get on with their lives, and most of all, let`s keep his children in our prayers.
They seem like great kids. Let`s let them get on with their young lives and support them as they do so. So, again, thank you all for supporting us down here at L.A. Times and making this possible. We will be back in our studio tomorrow night. I want to thank you for watching, and I`ll see you next time.