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Sex Abuse Scandal at Penn State
Aired November 8, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
VINNIE POLITAN, HOST, HLN "SPECIAL REPORT" (voice-over): Here we go.
A child sex abuse scandal rocks one of college football`s most storied institutions. A former Penn State assistant coach accused of molesting numerous young boys. And the elder states man of the college gridiron, Joe Paterno, now ensnared in what some call a cover-up.
Plus, Conrad Murray just convicted of killing Michael Jackson, today reports he`s releasing a documentary. Could he actually profit from all of this? Should he?
And later, Justin Bieber`s lawyers say he`ll take a paternity test to prove he`s not a dad, then sue his accuser. Maria Yeater`s attorneys say bring it on.
Let`s get started.
(on camera): Good evening. I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight.
It`s a sex abuse scandal that might bring down one of the biggest names in sports - a former assistant football coach at Penn State. Jerry Sandusky is charged with sexually assaulting at least eight boys over the course of more than a decade. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a sex abuse scandal that is rocking Penn State University. At its center, Jerry Sandusky, accused of preying upon and sexually assaulting eight boys over a 15-year period.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a case about children who`ve had their innocence stolen from them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The aftershock of this is already moving far beyond Sandusky, who was a trusted pillar at Penn State and threatens to taint the golden legacy of famed head football coach Joe Paterno.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joe Paterno`s story through all of this has been that he knew was that something happened in 2002 that it was inappropriate, but he didn`t know the extent of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Penn State Athletic Director Tim Curley and Gary Shultz, the Senior Vice President of Finance and Business -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- failed to report one of the incidents of sexual abuse to police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And their inaction likely allowed a child predator to continue to victimize children for many, many years.
POLITAN: We have reports Penn State is right now engineering the departure of 84-year-old coaching legend Joe Paterno. He is not a target on the on-going investigation.
Here is Pennsylvania`s Attorney General on what was allegedly witnessed but not reported. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA KELLY, PENNSYLVANIA STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sandusky was seen committing a sexual assault on a young boy of about 10 years of age, was reported to university officials by a graduate assistant who happened to be in the building late one Friday evening. Those officials and administrators to whom it was reported did not report that incident to law enforcement or to any child protective agency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: According to the Grand Jury report, Sandusky used the charity he founded, the Second Mile, to gain access to these vulnerable boys. And according to Grand Jury testimony he engaged in fondling, oral and anal sex. At least one alleged incident took place on Penn State`s main campus.
Joining me tonight, former NFL player and advocate for victims of childhood abuse - sexual abuse, Heath Evans; author of the "Greatest Moment In Sports" and sports commentator Len Berman; and CNN Correspondent Jason Carroll, who is in state college Pennsylvania.
Jason, what`s happening there tonight?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I know you`ve been hearing, Vinnie, about a lot of calls for Paterno`s resignation. But tonight what we`ve been hearing are calls from his supporters saying that he should stay. There was a rally out at his house tonight. Another rally taking place on the campus tonight.
Also, during that rally in front of Paterno`s home, his sons spoke on his behalf and basically said when asked, hey, is there any chance that your father is going to resign, he said no. He said there have been no discussions about resignations. He said his father would be there this weekend to coach this weekend`s game and future games as well - Vinnie.
POLITAN: So, Jason, what you`re saying is that there`s an outpouring of support for the head coach tonight at Penn State?
CARROLL: Absolutely. And you have to remember, Vinnie, you know this. I mean, this man is a legend in this community, a legend at Penn State. So it`s no surprise in that you would see some - some outpouring of support for this man.
Now, look, having said that, there are definitely critics out there who say it is time for him to resign and step down. Legally he didn`t do anything wrong, but morally they said he should have done much more and he should have followed his conscience.
POLITAN: Len Berman, is it possible, is it fathomable that the Penn State Football Program is so important, so powerful that they would sweep this stuff under the rug somehow, the sexual abuse, alleged sexual abuse of 10-year-old boys? Len, is this possible?
LEN BERMAN, SPORTS COMMENTATOR: I can`t see that happening, Vinnie. I know he is a beloved coach.
But, listen, the three men who were indicted, there have to be others who knew about this. The number of years we`re talking about, there must have been many more incidents. This is a massive situation.
Now, in all fairness, we have to hear Joe Paterno`s side of the story, but the way things are going, it doesn`t look good for the 84-year-old coach.
POLITAN: And you look at what he did, yes, when he got word of this, he reported it to his superiors. But the thing that people are talking about tonight is that he`s the leader. I understand there`s a university president. There`s an athletic director, but we know who`s running Penn State, it`s JoePa. He`s the man in charge. He could make a difference. He could have been a leader.
Heath Evans, that`s what has me a little upset tonight, a lot upset really, is the way the entire university acted and it seemed that Joe Paterno in the middle of all this, did the legal minimum to do what he was supposed to do legally, but I believe as the leader of that university, he has a much bigger responsibility.
HEATH EVANS, FORMER NFL PLAYER, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS: A much bigger, a grand responsibility as leaders, much is expected, much is required. In battling childhood sexual abuse, there is no neutral ground. In trying to be neutral, Penn State University from the president to the head football coach, willing participants, no. But they aided in the sexual abuse of young men.
And for people to be out there standing in praise of JoePa and praising him and asking him to stay is absolutely ridiculous to me. It only fuels and fires me up even more so to battle the statistics. One out of four young girls before the age of 18, one out of six young boys before the age of 18 in the great US of A will be sexually abused because of people like this that refuse to stand up and do the right thigh.
POLITAN: Let`s look at the time line of the abuse here, because this is significant to get a fuller picture of how long this was allegedly was going on and who knew what when.
We begin 1994 to 1996, four boys allegedly sexually abused. 1998, check this out. the mother of a victim reports this abuse to police. No charges are filed. There`s an investigation. There is - there`s an admission at some point.
1999, right after this investigation, Sandusky retires from Penn State at age 55, right? Prime to take over this - this program if and when JoePa would ever step down, right?
2000 to 2002, Sandusky still got the keys to the showers and locker and everything else. Four more boys allegedly sexually abused.
2002, a grad assistant sees Sandusky having sex with a boy on campus, notifies the Athletic Director Curley and one of the university officials, Schultz.
2005, one boy allegedly sexually abused.
And then finally, 2009, the attorney general begins an investigation and now here in 2011, Sandusky, Curley and Schultz are charged here.
Len Berman, this is what surprises me. I understand the power and how important Penn State football is to the university, to the State of Pennsylvania. But for anyone to think that you can have evidence of this type of sex abuse going on and to allow it to continue, to not stand on top of the soap box and scream at the top of your lungs, hey, somebody better take a real close look at this, because this is really bad. This is really - and this is now going to bring down this university.
BERMAN: Well, what goes on in major college sports programs are they become little thiefdoms (ph), and the college coach becomes all powerful. And Joe Paterno is like a god on that campus.
Now, again, assuming these allegations are all true and that Paterno was involved, it`s sad that a man of a leadership position did not take a stronger stance. I mean, think about this for a second. What if it was one of his sons or one of his grandchildren who were being sexually abused? Would he have taken a stronger stance in that situation?
POLITAN: Absolutely. That`s a great point, Len.
Jason Carroll, what`s the latest on - on the newest victim who has come forward here?
CARROLL: Very good point, Vinnie. As you know, the attorney general made it very clear yesterday, she said there is a likelihood that there are other victims out there. And I spoke to a source close to the investigation who told me today that a man went to a police station just about an hour from here, spoke to a lieutenant there, and said that he, too, had been victimized by Sandusky.
Now, if that proves to be true, that would then make nine victims. That man`s allegations still have to be investigated before there`s an official`s sort of word that comes out that there are, in fact, nine victims.
But, you know, it falls in synch with what the attorney general said yesterday during her press conference, which was this is a man who for many, many years had access to young men and young boys. And so she said it stands to reason that there might be other victims out there as well.
POLITAN: And obviously Sandusky is denying the charges at this point, says he`s innocent, that this is all false allegations.
Now, up next, more on the charges filed against former Penn State Defensive Coordinator. There he is, Jerry Sandusky, and whether this is a career ender for head coach, Joe Paterno.
As we reported, the students don`t think so as they rallied around JoePa tonight. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY, FMR. PENN STATE DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR: We thought that if we could help a handful of kids we would do that. And then the staff and people have looked at the resources we had and the needs that existed and - and grown and reached out and touched so many kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Jerry Sandusky is embroiled in a child sex scandal charged with 40 counts of sexually abusing children over a 15-year period.
In that clip he was talking about the charity he founded way back in the `70s called the Second Mile. This organization became aware of allegations made against Sandusky by an adolescent male in 2008 and then banned him from any program, any activities involving children.
Listen now as the Pennsylvania Police Commissioner recounts two other incidents which apparently went nowhere.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK NOONAN, PENNSYLVANIA STATE POLICE COMMISSIONER: 1998, there was a police investigation in which he made admissions about inappropriate contact in a shower room, Jerry Sandusky did, and nothing happened, and nothing stopped.
In 2000 - the year 2000, janitors at the University of - of Penn State University observed a sex act in the shower room, and because they were afraid of their jobs, didn`t report it, so nothing changed and nothing stopped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: The university has got to do better here.
Former NFL player Heath Evans is with us. He`s an advocate for children who`ve been sexually abused. Sports commentator Len Berman with us. Attorney Lauren Lake joining us. And, on the phone, we have Mark Lawrence, who`s the program director at Penn State Radio Station WKOK.
Mark, we hear that Sandusky`s preliminary hearing scheduled for tomorrow has been postponed?
MARK LAWRENCE, PROGRAM DIRECTOR, WKOK (via telephone): We haven`t heard that specifically. We`ve heard that the defense attorneys have been asking for a postponement. I haven`t heard that that have been - had been granted.
It may have been a late filing, but it certainly is common that a preliminary hearing of this nature, really no one on either side would be ready. Only a scant number of witnesses are ready to testify, so both sides may want more time.
And it`s likely that this hearing may never take place. It would be such a media zoo, very likely no one`s going to be interested in the hearing, and so they would send the case directly to court.
POLITAN: Very possible.
I want you to take a look at a statement issued by Joe Paterno. And, obviously, he did the legal minimum here, folks. He - he did the reporting that he was supposed to do to his superiors. The question tonight is, should he have done more?
Here`s what his statement says, "It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators."
Heath, how about it? Again, it - it comes - for me, it comes to - to leadership. Who`s in a position to do something? And - and I spoke with one of his former players earlier today, and he said this is what coach JoePa would tell the team and these young men that he helped through the years, "Do the right thing because it`s the right thing to do," and I don`t know if the right thing was done here. I know the right thing wasn`t done.
EVANS: You`re dead on. You hit the nail on the head. It definitely wasn`t done. JoePa was hiding behind the letter of the law instead of the intent of the law. The intent of the law is to protect these children.
He did the bare minimum. The question has already been raised on this show, what if it was his grandson? What if it was his son? I`m scared to ask. Would he have done anything different? The man that we thought we knew would have stepped up and done the right thing, like he challenged players to do for four decades.
Listen, if you survive four decades in NCAA at the standard of which he has, he knows everything that goes on inside of that program, so I don`t want to hear any more of this I didn`t know, I wasn`t told this. If he saw Coach Sandusky rubbing a man`s back, a young boy`s back, that`s inappropriate touch. That`s enough to take it to law enforcement or whoever else you need to to get it handled properly.
POLITAN: Lauren Lake, what should JoePa be saying tonight?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know what, I think, unfortunately, he can`t say much. This case, as it seemed (ph) -
POLITAN: Why not? Why not?
LAKE: Because - I`ll tell you why, Vinnie, and - and we know, it`s - it doesn`t sound right, it doesn`t feel right, but it is what it is. At this point, this university is in so much deep water, everyone has been told to be quiet. They`re probably all lawyering up, figuring out what is the depth of this situation.
JoePa probably maybe even wanted to speak, but, let`s be honest. He`s an older man. He probably is not going to be able to handle the media scrutiny and what`s going to be coming at him. He is in a very difficult situation, because even though he did what he was supposed to do in terms of his position, it`s not feeling right because he is the king of that program.
So, people have got to take some time. There are going to be charges filed, and there are charges being filed against other employees as we speak. So this is the time now for people to listen to their attorneys, and you know and I know, that attorneys usually say be quiet.
POLITAN: Just don`t say anything.
Len Berman, should - should he be speaking tonight? I mean, I - I think this requires some leadership, some truthfulness, and a - and a time to - to do the right thing.
BERMAN: He did say a few words outside of his home tonight.
The question should be, should he be coaching on the sidelines this Saturday when Penn State plays Nebraska on Senior Day? I mean, can you imagine the scene? Is he going to get a standing ovation in Happy Valley? I mean, how sick would that be?
So I`m not sure he even makes it to Saturday.
POLITAN: Yes. I`ll tell you what, if he`s there, he`s going to get that standing ovation. You already saw what Jason Carroll saw tonight, which was this pep rally out in front of his house tonight. Unbelievable.
Now, what if you witnessed child abuse or knew that it was occurring? Dr. Drew has some thoughts about what you should do. Read about it on HLNtv.com.
Dr. Drew will be back tomorrow as we continue our Penn State coverage.
Next, former Penn State assistant coach Jerry Sandusky was recently confronted about the allegations against him. His reaction, straight ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get in the house (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys! Guys, guys, guys! Please (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give him some space.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love you, Coach.
CROWD: We love you, Coach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Welcome back. I`m Vinnie Politan, sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight.
Are legendary Penn State Coach Joe Paterno`s days numbered? A recent Grand Jury report states that Coach Paterno knew about Jerry Sandusky`s alleged sexual abuse of a minor in 2002, and did notify the school`s athletic director, but did nothing more. Was that enough?
Sandusky was recently confronted by a "Good Morning America" reporter about the charges leveled against him. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDUSKY: I`m sorry, but my attorney has advised me that this situation is in the courts and I`m not to make any comments.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us if you had any inappropriate relations with young boys, sir?
SANDUSKY: You didn`t hear what I said? I said I am - I`ve been advised by my attorney, I am following orders, and I am not privy to making any statements.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Back with me, attorney Lauren Lake, sports commentator Len Berman, former NFL player Heath Evans, also with me. And, on the phone, we have WKOK program director Mark Lawrence.
Mark, what`s going on in Penn State? People are now questioning why does this guy who retires as a coach then have full access to the campus and has the keys to the locker rooms, keys to the showers so he can allegedly take these boys in there?
LAWRENCE: Well, that`s a major story that`s come out of this this week, that even after initially - first, kids are banned from the campus. Jerry Sandusky is not allowed to bring kids on campus. That`s been going on for about 10 years. And then Sandusky himself banned just over the weekend, but he`s still given access to the university. Different officials say that`s unenforceable, that there`s really no way to keep Jerry Sandusky and kids off the campus at the same time.
And, all the while this is happening, Jerry is still running camps elsewhere. He ran one at the Behrend Campus, which is near Erie, PA, near Middletown, which is near Harrisburg; and another one near Muhlenberg. So even though he`s no longer specifically tied to - to Penn State and the camps aren`t there, he`s able to go to other camps, still meeting with kids, still helping these camps out, and still profiting from them, too, and still having contact.
POLITAN: Lauren Lake, how much trouble could there be for Penn State here? And - and what I`m - what I`ve seen is that when they found out something was going wrong here with him allegedly in the shower with little boys, they took away keys to the shower, right? They took his keys away, but he was - you know, they didn`t tell police.
LAKE: Well, you know, Vinnie, there could be a lot of trouble here, because there could potentially be so many people involved.
You know, people don`t know it, my husband was a graduate assistant at Penn State in 2000 - 2005, 2006, and he knows Coach Sandusky. He`s incomplete shock. He had no clue. He said Coach Sandusky would come in every morning at - at 6:00 A.M. and work out in the locker room, and he was regarded as any other coach, a past coach on the team, and was well respected, very pleasant.
So this has touched so many people, and it`s - it`s going to be very interesting to see how many people have seen something and swept it under the rug, or whether or not this has been just a complete culture of secrecy contained with a few major people that - that tried to cover it up. But a lot of people could go down for - for this. Let`s be honest.
POLITAN: All right, great job by everyone. Thank you all so much.
Now, we`ve all seen the one face of Dr. Conrad Murray, but next, we see the other face. An animated, angry doctor who reveals the shocking details of who he blames the day Michael Jackson died.
And later, the lady and the Bieber. The latest on the leave it to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN (voice-over): Conrad Murray just convicted of killing Michael Jackson. Tonight, fresh reports of a documentary, parts of it airing this week. Recriminations, finger pointing, and Murray in his own words. Is Murray trying to profit from this whole situation? Can he even do that legally?
And later, MJ penned the lyrics the kid is not my son. But tonight, another pop star is borrowing that phrase. Justin Bieber`s legal team is talking tough, batting the way accusations he fathered a three-month-old baby. We`re bringing in a body language expert to analyze the alleged mother`s on-camera allegations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN (on-camera): I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight. Dr. Conrad Murray is in a new MSNBC documentary, and it is as riveting as its revealing. Dr. Murray now a convicted killer. Never took the stand in his own defense.
In the documentary, we hear for the first time with passion, and even some anger what Murray thinks happened the day Michael Jackson died. Watch this clip that was played on NBC`s "Today" show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONRAD MURRAY, CONVICTED FELON: I need help. I am doing CPR. Mr. Jackson is not breathing. Come in here. Get me help. Call 911. I need you to call 911. In addition to me doing CPR, chest compressions, I`m trying to resuscitate this patient, I`m controlling him on the 911 call. How old is this patient? Fifty. Get (EXPLETIVE DELETED) over here. Get here! I need you to come. Come on!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Joining me to discuss these tapes are criminal defense attorney, Lisa Bloom. She`s also the author of "Think," and criminal defense attorney, Lauren Lake back with us. Lisa Bloom, Conrad Murray is famous for one thing and one thing only, killing Michael Jackson.
That`s what he did, that`s why we know him, that`s why we`re talking about him, and that`s why someone is following him around with a camera for two years, putting together a documentary that I think, really, is more of a reality show. I mean, this is in such bad taste, but apparently, not legal in your home state of California, Lisa.
LISA BLOOM, AUTHOR, "THINK": I believe that it is legal, Vinnie.
POLITAN: That`s what I mean. It`s not illegal.
BLOOM: I thought you said not legal.
BLOOM: Sorry. I`m far from you. I`m out here in the Midwest in St. Louis. So, forgive me. So listen, Vinnie, he has a first amendment right to speak, and he has a right to answer questions and even has the right to take money as part of that documentary. If he did, I don`t know if he did, but you`re absolutely right, it`s in terrible taste.
It`s in very poor taste, and now, it`s airing the week after he became a convicted felon. I mean, I think it`s just in poor taste all around, but there is one ray of hope, Vinnie, and that is if he takes this case up on appeal, and it`s reversed, then he has a new trial, well, the prosecution now has a mountain of new evidence they can use against them.
POLITAN: Absolutely. I don`t think they`re going to necessarily need that appeal, but you never know, Lisa Bloom. Lauren Lake, I think this is so wrong on so many different levels. The first being this guy is famous for one thing and one thing only, Lauren Lake, it`s because he killed Michael Jackson. So, you kill Michael Jackson, then you strike a deal to do a documentary? Come on!
LAUREN LAKE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he was not adjudicated the killer of Michael Jackson at the time he started his documentary series.
POLITAN: Yes, but he had killed him. He had killed him already.
LAKE: Well, the --
POLITAN: Wait, wait, wait.
LAKE: The negligence had occurred and Michael Jackson had passed away, but let me just say this. Let me just say this.
POLITAN: One quick timeout. One quick timeout.
LAKE: Yes, we`re on timeout.
POLITAN: Can we agree that Conrad Murray killed Michael Jackson?
LAKE: I will say that his negligence most certainly contributed to the death of Michael Jackson, and he has been found guilty.
POLITAN: Are you watching HLN yesterday?
LAKE: And I respect the jury`s decision. I`m just not at the point where I`m going to villainize this man to the point where if he has a story that he wants to tell, let him tell it. And if we`re going to point the finger at him for telling it, let`s point the finger at each and every American TV producer and cable network that`s going to watch it, produce it, and air it.
We have become a country of voyeurism. We want to see it. We want to hear it. Now, he didn`t speak up in a court of law because he had the right to remain silent. And he did just that and did not testify against, you know, himself in the court of law. He had that right, and he did not get on the stand, but people still want to know maybe what he`s thinking.
Whether it`s lies or the truth, let America decide. And at the end of the day, he has children, and they are innocent. They didn`t kill anybody, and they weren`t negligent. They`re human beings.
If he does make a dime that doesn`t go to his lawyers or back to the Jackson Family, and it can provide for those innocent children, well, good for them, because their father was probably their livelihood, and their provider, and he will no longer have a medical license.
POLITAN: Yes. I have no problem with him speaking. It`s getting paid. And someone paying this man who`s famous for killing someone else, and the only reason he`s famous. Let`s do this. Let`s take another look at a clip from the show. Again, this is from the "Today" show. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: He really could not sleep. Have you ever seen the Thriller image when he was made up? He looked that hysterical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Lisa bloom, I`m all for people talking, but this is -- to me, this is the production of a reality show, a reality show based on one man`s fame for killing the world`s most famous man.
BLOOM: Well, first of all, you know, I love you Vinnie, but I`m going to take Lauren Lake`s side against you. I mean, that`s just how it is because Lauren`s my girl. And I don`t know if I would necessarily call him -- POLITAN: And I read your book, too.
BLOOM: -- a killer either. I don`t necessarily call him a killer either. What he was convicted of was involuntary manslaughter.
BLOOM: Gross negligence. And his actions led to the death of Michael Jackson. It may seem like a fine line, but he`s not convicted of murder.
POLITAN: I didn`t say murder. I said kill.
BLOOM: I know. I know. You can say that he`s a killer.
POLITAN: He killed him.
BLOOM: It`s the propofol that killed Jackson. Jackson wanted the propofol. He begged a lot of people for it. Now, Murray shouldn`t have given it to him, absolutely. And I think he was rightly convicted, but, look, Lauren makes a very good point. How are you going to argue with her about supporting his family and supporting his children?
He did something that was legal. And what about everybody else that`s profiting off of this, right? What about them? They`re profiting off it as well. We don`t even know he was paid for it. There`s a lot of facts we don`t know about here.
POLITAN: Right. Maybe he didn`t get paid for it. Maybe he just said OK, follow me around for two years behind the scenes with my defense team, and I`ll tell you my whole story for nothing.
BLOOM: Well, he may have wanted to speak, because he couldn`t speak in the courtroom. He may have wanted to speak. I mean, we just don`t know. I don`t think we should pile on the man until we have the facts.
POLITAN: Wait, wait. He could come on here for free. He can speak to me, Dr. Drew, for free. I`ll give him two hours with me for free.
BLOOM: Yes. And you know what, and the ratings would shoot up, and the advertisers would pay more, and the network would make money. I mean, that`s just the way these things work.
POLITAN: You know what, he`d have to answer some questions, because he`d be cross-examined by a former prosecutor which is what he`s scared of.
BLOOM: Yes. Well, you know what, that`s probably right. That`s why he wouldn`t do it. I mean, people want these cushy forums but only going to get easy questions.
POLITAN: All right. Let me see if I can get this out of you, Lisa Bloom and Laura Lake. Was this or was this not a homicide?
POLITAN: Lisa Bloom.
BLOOM: I say yes.
POLITAN: Oh, Lauren Lake won`t say yes. It was just a homicide.
LAKE: Vinnie --
BLOOM: Come on, Lauren!
LAKE: Vinnie, you`re just trying to get me on the ropes. The man has been convicted. He has been carried off in handcuffs. What do you want from him? The one charge he was charged with, he`s been found guilty, and he`s in jail. I just don`t understand.
BLOOM: And he was denied bail.
POLITAN: This is what I don`t want.
POLITAN: I don`t want people killing other people and then pitching it, and say hey, you want to do a documentary on me? Hey, you want to strike a deal? Follow me around.
BLOOM: Vinnie, the problem with what you`re saying is the show was made before he was convicted.
BLOOM: So, there`s a little gap in your timeline.
POLITAN: Doesn`t matter. He knew what he did which is kill Michael Jackson. We heard his interview with police, right? Did you hear it? You heard it, right? That was the foundation of the prosecution`s case was Dr. Conrad Murray`s own words.
BLOOM: I heard it. That`s right. And the jury has heard it.
LAKE: But Vinnie --
BLOOM: So, he has the right to speak. I mean, does the first amendment mean something, Vinnie?
POLITAN: The first amendment is the right to speak, not the right to make money off of someone else`s death that you caused. Homicide for profit?
BLOOM: That`s a fact not in evidence, Vinnie. We don`t know if he made money.
LAKE: Exactly. Yes.
POLITAN: Here we go.
POLITAN: if he did not make one dime from this --
BLOOM: Lauren, back me up.
LAKE: What about his children? Vinnie, what about his children? What about his children?
POLITAN: This is why he should be thinking about his children. When he`s on the phone while his patient is dying talking to the cocktail waitress while his girlfriend is at home with his baby. That`s --
LAKE: Vinnie, there are way too many adulterers out here that still take care of their kids. Now, we`re not going to get up on that soap box.
LAKE: Because there`s a whole bunch of men and women that cheat on their spouses and have girlfriends and boyfriends and take care of their kids.
POLITAN: He was cheating on his spouse. He was talking with his girlfriend when he was supposed to be at work making $150,000 a month to take care of the kids.
LAKE: And you`re going to say that the child should not have a pair of shoes or a book for school because that happened? You`re not saying that.
POLITAN: No. His child should have a responsible father.
LAKE: You`re not saying that.
POLITAN: He should have responsible father. He`s concerned more about doing his job than talking to the cocktail waitress.
LAKE: Those kids are innocent, and they rely on their father. Those kids are innocent, and --
BLOOM: Well, you know, the problem is a sense of proportionality here, right? He`s not a cold-blooded killer like Scott Peterson. I mean, this is a guy --
POLITAN: No. He`s a warm-blooded killer. We`re out of time, ladies.
BLOOM: He made horrible mistakes, looking at four years behind bars.
POLITAN: Lisa bloom, Lauren Lake, see you. Thanks so much.
BLOOM: Thanks, Vinnie. Thanks, Laure.
POLITAN: Do you believe that teen singing sensation, Justin Bieber, fathered a baby at the tender age of 16? We`ll tell you about what Justin plans to do about the 20-year-old woman claiming to be his baby mama. Stay with us.
POLITAN: Tonight, paging Maury Povich. I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in for Dr. Drew. One of Justin Bieber`s biggest hits was the song (SINGING) baby baby, oh! And now, a woman is claiming that Bieber has one. The teen pop sensation swears he`s going to hear the words, "you are not the father."
But this woman, Mariah Yeater says she had sex with Justin after one of his concerts, and now, she`s raising his son. She opened up to "The Insider." Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN FRAZIER, CO-ANCHOR, "THE INSIDER": There are people watching this that are not going to believe what you`re saying.
MARIAH YEATER, SAYS JUSTIN BIEBER FATHERED HER CHILD: I have provided evidence to my attorneys, and it will show in court. To prove that my allegations are true.
FRAZIER: Can I ask you what the proof might be or can we have any --
YEATER: I`m sorry, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Justin`s fans known as believers are threatening this woman`s life. Bieber says he`s not only going to take a test to prove he`s not the dad, he`s going to slap this woman with a fat (ph) lawsuit. Could the teen heartthrob really be a daddy?
Straight out to my guests, body language expert, Mark Edgar Stephens, is with us, famed father`s rights attorney, an attorney for Mariah Yeater, Jeffery Leving is here. He`s the author of fathers` rights, and also with us, the co-host of "The Insider," Kevin Frazier.
Kevin, let me start with you. You do the interview with her. You sit down, eye-to-eye, same room. You left that room. Did you believe her?
FRAZIER: Well, I felt like there were a lot inconsistencies in her story from what she told police to what she told us to the fact that a lot of our questions she didn`t answer because she was either crying or getting up and walking out of the room or had no comment. So, I thought that was very interesting.
And I thought the most telling question that I asked was, is there anybody backstage who can substantiate your story? And she couldn`t answer that question. She began to cry and eventually got up and walked out of the room when I asked that question. It was pretty simple. It was pretty straightforward.
And in her affidavit, she said that there were other girls backstage. There were other girls that saw her kissing Justin before they went to a private area. I also -- I had a source who was there that night with Justin, walked him from the stage to his dressing room, from the dressing room anywhere else he wanted to go, before he left for the car, and he really, really contradicts what Mariah Yeater is saying.
POLITAN: All right. Jeffery Leving, great to see you tonight. You know, I respect the work that you do. You don`t take just any case. Tell me what the evidence is that Mariah showed you that convinced you that, hey, I got to take this case. I need to fight for this woman`s rights.
JEFFERY LEVING, ATTORNEY FOR ACCUSER, MARIAH YEATER: Body language cannot determine paternity. It`s totally irrelevant. To determine paternity, you need a DNA test. A DNA test must --
POLITAN: I understand that, Jeffery. Is there evidence -- is there something that she said to you, something that she showed you, told you that convinced you that, hey, this is a credible story. This is someone I should be representing?
LEVING: I wouldn`t be here if I didn`t view her as a victim, and she has a right to make her case without bullying or intimidation or without threats of being sued or without threats of possibly being locked up as a young mother with a little baby and thrown in jail where she could lose her child forever.
Justice is not a luxury only the rich can afford. This is not a complicated case, and it`s turned into a circus. And what I`m hoping to do is by my recent involvement, because I was retained late Sunday night, I`m hoping by my recent involvement to help bring this case to a quick conclusion which necessitates a DNA test with a chain of custody that is carefully supervised to make sure the evidence is not corrupted.
An evidence, DNA evidence can get corrupted in any case if the chain of custody is not properly supervised. And that`s basically what I`m hoping will happen here. This is unfortunate. This is a 20-year-old single mom. She`s basically a child herself with a child. She`s unemployed.
She doesn`t have a college degree. She`s not a lawyer. She`s not a doctor. She`s not a famous media personality, and she probably doesn`t really know what to do right now other than just being a good mom and taking care of her child.
POLITAN: We know she`s in good hands if you`re representing her, Jeffery. Mark Edgar Stephens, I want to bring you in here, body language expert. I understand Jeffery doesn`t believe in this, but I want you to take a look at Mariah Yeater speaking here, describing her encounter, and I want to get your take on what you see and what you hear. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRAZIER: So, tell me about the night, the concert. What was it like that night at Staples?
YEATER: He immediately took a liking to me, and we just got to talking, you know, it was kind of me and him with other people also, and then, he eventually asked me, he said, would you mind if we can go somewhere and be alone, and then, when we got to turned out to be a bathroom, his whole demeanor changed. It went from cute and gushy, you know, to just more aggressive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Mark, anything in her body language that makes you believe or not believe her?
MARK EDGAR STEPHENS, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: There are several things that are going on here. First of all, she looks very worried while she`s telling all this, and I think she`s gotten herself into a situation that`s a little bit tough to get out of no matter what is revealed as the truth or what is false.
What we are seeing in those is a shortness of breath. We`re seeing a lot of swallowing. We`re seeing a lot of biting of the lips. There are even a few things in there that are called manipulators. Manipulators are the things that we do subconsciously when we want to throw people away from the words that we`re actually saying.
So, though, the body language cannot say exactly whether Justin Bieber is the father or not, what it can say is that she`s showing a great deal of anxiety that is very much in line with what we would call deceptive body language.
POLITAN: Now, obviously, we know that`s not necessarily proof of anything.
STEPHENS: That`s right.
POLITAN: You know, let`s do this. We`re going to talk more about this.
Coming up, we`re going to discuss, is it possible, is it even possible that Justin is the baby`s father? We`ll analyze some photos and find out what you think. That`s next.
POLITAN: Tonight, 20-year-old Mariah Yeater says Justin Bieber is the father of her four-month-old son, Trystan. I want to show my guests this photo. Take a look at it. Again, Justin is denying he ever met this woman. What do you guys think?
Is there any sort of resemblance between Bieber and the baby tonight? And everyone is going to have an opinion on that. We just know that they`re both cute. What?
POLITAN: I understand that. But a mother or father always sees a bit of themselves in their child. And we`ll let the people makeup their minds. Here`s my question, Jeffery. Is it possible, Jeffery, that your client, that there could be another potential father of this child?
LEVING: A DNA test will establish that conclusively. My opinion is from my review of the information I have, no, but if a DNA test proves me wrong, fine. The issue here really as I see it isn`t the outcome, even though the outcome is critical to the case.
The issue here is the outrageous way this woman is being treated and attacked and threatened. And this is fearful for a 20-year-old little young woman.
POLITAN: A young mother is in the middle of a big storm here.
FRAZIER: Vinnie, hold on.
POLITAN: Go ahead. Jump in, Kevin.
FRAZIER: Vinnie and Mr. Leving, let me just say this. Number one, you know, there`s a lot of evidence that contradicts what she is saying. You know, she says she cannot substantiate being backstage. She has accused another man of being the father of this baby, a young man named John Terranova in Las Vegas.
And also, there`s the fact that, you know, if Justin Bieber was the father of this baby, why did she wait almost a year to then talk to him? I understand the whole thing about the justice system. I`m married to a public defender, so I get that. But what I`m saying to you is that part of this is that her story has more holes in it than a piece of Swiss cheese.
And, also, she really asked for a lot of this in the way she carried herself and the way she allowed this story out. I gave her every opportunity to tell her story, and every time I asked her a pointed question, she either began to cry or she got up and walked out.
POLITAN: And Jeffery, where is the evidence --
LEVING: She`s a 20-year-old girl. Why don`t you get a 13-year-old high school student and see how hard you could push her, see how long it takes to crack and get her to cry? This is not a tough litigator. This is a fragile, single woman.
It doesn`t take much pushing when somebody`s whole life is hanging in the balance, and they don`t know what direction they`re going in, and they`re a single mom. This is a simple paternity case, and I handled many, many cases like this. they`re simple.
FRAZIER: But this isn`t about paternity only. This isn`t only about paternity, because if it was only about paternity, then she would have tried to settle it a long time ago. This is about Justin Bieber, his fame, and his potential fortune also.
LEVING: That`s not true. That is not true. Before this case was even filed, I attempted to contact who I believed to be Justin Bieber`s counsel, hoping to settle this outside of court and never received a response. So, come on. Let`s be serious.
But the real issue here is justice, and justice should not be a luxury. And even though I represent primarily fathers, because most fathers --
POLITAN: All right, guys. We`re unfortunately out of time tonight. Great job by everyone. Jeffery Leving, Kevin Frazier, thanks so much. Dr. Drew will be back tomorrow with his take on the Penn State scandal. I`m Vinnie Politan. We`ll see you.