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Penn State: Fallout from Sex Abuse Scandal

Aired November 10, 2011 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.

Is sexual abuse of children far more prevalent than we know? Why don`t more kids tell? A famous athlete who`s victimized as a child shares his story as the Penn State scandal continues to shock.

And Rabbi Shmuley is here with Michael Jackson tapes never heard publicly until now. What do these exclusive recordings reveal?

Plus the Duggars have 19 kids. Why are they having a 20th? Let`s get going.

Good evening.

We are leading with the Penn State scandal. The night after legendary coach Joe Paterno and the university`s president were in effect ousted in the middle of a child sex abuse scandal, which has rocked the school.

Let`s go to HLN`s Mike Galanos in State College for the latest. Mike, what do you got?

MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR: Well, Drew, it`s an emotional hangover here in State College Pennsylvania the day after the announcement. Joe Paterno out as head coach, being a (ph) new coach for the first time since 1966. He had talk about those emotions. I`ve never seen anything like it.

Announcement made. Students flooding into the Old Main building that is behind me, chanting - chanting "Joe Paterno." They want Joe back.

But then it really turned ugly. Spilled into the streets. There were a few injuries for both police and some of the civilians around. Strong police presence finally turned things around.

Well, now as a new day has dawned, there`s a new coach in Tom Bradley.

But let`s get back for a moment, Drew, to the victims in all of this. Eight alleged victims. And this Saturday, there`s a placard I want to show you. It says, "Wear Blue Saturday." And blue being the color to really signify and honor child abuse victims and help out with child abuse prevention. So they are urging Penn State fans to wear that blue ribbon as a show of support to these victims - to these victims. Because let`s face it - number one and our first priority should be those eight.

We`ll have much more from State College coming up. Back to you.

PINSKY: Thanks, Mike.

Now, we all know something went very wrong at Penn State. We`re going to talk about Paterno`s culpability and the failure of good men to do the right thing and stop a predator in their midst.

Here`s a scene of support outside the Paterno home.


JOE PATERNO, FORMER HEAD FOOTBALL COACH, PENN STATE: Get a good night`s sleep, right? Study. All right? We still have things to do. I`m out of it maybe now. A phone call put me out of it (ph). But we`ll go from here, OK? Good night, everybody. And thanks for coming. Thanks and pray a little bit for those victims.




PINSKY: Joining me tonight, a former NFL player and advocate for victims of childhood sexual abuse, Heath Evans, and someone who knows firsthand the effects of abuse, former NHL star and author of "Why I Didn`t Say Anything," Sheldon Kennedy. He was abused as a child by a person in power. And on Penn State campus, students Catherine Janisko and AJ Merlino.

Catherine, what is the reaction out there to the news that Joe Paterno has stepped down?

CATHERINE JANISKO, PENN STATE STUDENT: Dr. drew, the situation here is just - it`s incredible. I have no other words to explain it. It`s just an incredible situation. There were hundreds among hundreds of students right out here behind us at Old Main tonight and the situation, it`s a tragedy. It actually is devastating.

PINSKY: And A.J., do you think there was a rush to judgment here? Or do you think it`s an appropriate action, swift and sure before things got further out of hand?

AJ MERLINO, PENN STATE STUDENT: I think that he had to be fired and he had to be - he had to step down. But the way they handled it, it was just horrible, I think. And people just don`t realize how big Joe Paterno is here. And he is the school. He is Penn State. He`s bigger than Penn State. And the way they treated him, I felt, was unfair.

PINSKY: Catherine, do most of your friends feel the way you do?

JANISKO: Absolutely. Absolutely. People - I think people are devastated, as I said before. And this all comes back to Jerry Sandusky, really, and this is where the event started. And the events leading up to tonight has just been a stressful situation for everyone. And it`s such an emotional time for this university and the students especially. Because Joe Paterno has not only been a wonderful football coach and has done so many things for the university, but he`s also taken these kids under his wings as if they were his own children, really.

PINSKY: But let me ask you one last thing, just one quick question to both you guys. And that is that, you know, when you read the Grand Jury`s report, this thing went to the police and the social agencies a couple times and way up the administrative ladder, and yet it got shut down.

Is there a sort of a culture of secrecy there? And if so, do the students plan to do anything about this?

MERLINO: I mean, we were talking about that earlier today. It`s juts all really fishy and suspicious to us. I don`t know if the students are going to do anything about it, to be honest with you. I think that they are more concerned with Joe Paterno right now and Graham Spanier, but I mean I think it is really suspicious.

JANISKO: The students here - the students are focusing more on the high-end officials within this case, but we talked about this today earlier. And the real focus here is the children and the victims. It`s kind of hard when you have all of these officials. Especially Joe Paterno, who is bigger than life here at this university.

So when you have people like this in a situation, you know, the media does tend to focus on these things and the students are, too. This is - this is on top of these victims, this is a hard thing to take in for them.

PINSKY: Well, thank you, guys. It is a big deal. Gees, it`s like the Catholic Church covering up and it`s the cover-up that`s the issue, isn`t it?

HEATH EVANS, ADVOCATE FOR VICTIMS OF CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE: It is. I mean, awareness about this issue is the biggest battle. Yes, I mean, we can take predators, put them behind bars and let justice be served, but the awareness is really what gives children the hope and the strength and the courage to stand up and say, hey, this happened to me. I need help.

PINSKY: And I think one of our messages has to be today, too, is that if somebody has been the subject of this kind of abuse, there is help out there. You`ve seen it work firsthand.

EVANS: Yes. And my beautiful bride of over 10 years now. I got married and really had no clue really of what I was walking into. I knew that she had been abused sexually, but I didn`t know - I didn`t know what came with that. And then I entered into marriage, every marriage has its struggles, but, I mean, intimacy issues, communication issues, I mean, you name it. We had it.

PINSKY: Because if somebody has been sexually abused, they can`t get close because they can`t trust.

EVANS: As simple as touch. I mean, how do I know how to touch my wife. I mean, it`s a frustrating thing.

PINSKY: But thank God you`re hanging in there. There is treatment.

EVANS: Yes, definitely.

PINSKY: It does get a lot better with time.

Sheldon, I want to ask you the same thing. You have been the object of this kind of an experience. Can you help my viewers understand the impact this has on somebody?

SHELDON KENNEDY, FORMER NHL PLAYER, ABUSED BY A COACH: Well, I think that we see it all the time. You know, I`m up here in Canada and we had a Penn State situation 14 years ago. And from that, we`ve had a ton of disclosures and so forth. But what we see is we see ultimately kids killing themselves. We see the shame and the guilt and all in the roads that these individuals go down, the drugs, the alcohol, the risky behavior.

And it`s - we`re just starting to after 14 years of really pushing hard on the prevention side of these issues really looking at the damage it has on our society, our jail systems, et cetera, it`s huge and, you know, these issues affect big time.

PINSKY: Yes. Sheldon, you`re absolutely right. I always tell people if you have bad enough addiction that you need to see me, there`s a 100 percent probability that you have physical or sexual abuse. And, again, I tell people to understand, it shatters a young brain`s upper limits of - of what it can tolerate. And it creates these tremendous reactions where they can`t reenter the frame. As, Heath, you were saying, the frame of healing is closeness and trust. But they can`t get that close because that was too shattering an experience to risk again.

EVANS: Well, it`s all the lies going on in their heads. I mean, my wife and I has had this intimate conversation -

PINSKY: And you have, by the way, said your wife has threatened suicide even, as a result.

EVANS: Wanting to end it. Just wanting out.


EVANS: I mean, I`m telling her that she had a husband that loved her, two gorgeous girls, money in the bank, a beautiful home. Nice cars. Everything this world says that you need to be happy -

PINSKY: But inside ruptured (ph).

EVANS: -- but inside, she just wanted out. I mean, she didn`t want to hurt herself that way. She just couldn`t stand the pain emotionally inside. And that`s really what you deal with this, the mental aspect. The lies that the victim tells themselves. It was my fault. I asked for this. I played a part in this.

PINSKY: Yes. Right.

And then Sheldon, I think that`s what you`re referring to is the shame and the guilt and the fact that these kids feel so young - it`s normal for young mind to feel responsible with everything that happens to them. And it was something so confusing and shattering that`s happening to them, they take it all on.

KENNEDY: Well, absolutely. And I think, you know, it`s that - most of the time when we`re sexually abused as a young person, it`s by somebody in power or somebody in trust. So we just automatically, the mind just shuts down in letting us get close and let anybody inside us because of that fear of being hurt again.

So any relationship that we try to move forward on in life, whether it be, you know, work, friends, brothers, family, whatever it may be, that trust is not there because, you know, we don`t want to hurt again. So that becomes a very lonely life.


KENNEDY: And, you know, I do work in the addiction field as well. And I`ll tell you, that many of these stories, you know - our jails I know in Canada are filled with individuals that have had terrible childhoods.

PINSKY: Yes. And Sheldon, it`s the gift that keeps on giving. That is a great description of how it operates.

Here`s part of the statement from former Penn State President Graham Spanier - I think pronounces it. He issued this shortly after he was asked to step down. Quote, "I am brokenhearted to think that any child may have been hurt and have deep convictions about the need to protect children and youth. The acts of no one person should define this university. Penn State is defined by the traditions, loyalty and integrity of hundreds of thousands of students, alumni and employees."

Heath, did they do the right thing, making Joe Paterno step down? Making the president step down?

EVANS: Hands down this is an overwhelming yes.

PINSKY: And more on the Penn State scandal when we come back.

And later, Rabbi Shmuley releases exclusive audiotapes of Michael Jackson. We will hear them right here, so please stay with us.


PINSKY: Thank you for staying with us this evening.

I`m being told that Penn State students are going to wear all blue at this Saturday`s home football game in support of the alleged victims. Victims whose lives will forever be ruined because of this man, Jerry Sandusky, and what he is alleged to have done.

And what have you witnessed child abuse or knew that it was occurring, what should you do? We`re going to talk about that a little bit now.

Back with me, former NFL player and advocate for victims of childhood sexual abuse, Heath Evans, and former NHL star and author of "Why I Didn`t Say Anything", Sheldon Kennedy. He himself had been abused as a child by a person in power.

So, Sheldon, it begs the question. Why didn`t you say anything?

KENNEDY: I think it`s the fear. Well, I don`t think. I know it`s the fear. I think it`s that, you know, that power imbalance. And it`s the fear of nobody believing me. Yes, what is it, an adult or a child has to tell an adult seven times before any action is taken. And it`s the fear of nobody is going to believe me. And it must be my fault -


KENNEDY: -- and so forth. And I think that`s, you know, that`s devastating.

I mean, look at the seven leaders that were supposed to be the leaders in this Penn State University, running that whole show there that couldn`t say anything let alone a child.

PINSKY: Very, very interesting point.

Heath, you wanted to talk about something about awareness and why we`re taking aim at these leaders.

EVANS: Well, constantly on Twitter I`ve been bombarded with, you know, why are you attacking JoePa? And why aren`t you attacking, you know, Sandusky, the man behind all of this mess?

Well, ultimately, you know, the court, our justice system is going to have - have its way with Sandusky. But JoePa did just enough to legally excuse himself from any of this mess. But the awareness factor of - of this abuse is really the key.

We talked about, you know, one out of four young girls before the age of 18 will be sexually abused. One of six males -

PINSKY: Repeat that, because I`ve - I`ve heard that data before, and I`m not sure if it`s accurate. But if it`s anywhere close to accurate, you need to hear this.

EVANS: Here`s the data -


PINSKY: One out of four women, one out of six - yes.

EVANS: In the great US of A, one out of four before the age of 18. One out of six males, and that`s really - we live in this society that tells our men, we can`t show fear, you can`t show weakness, you can`t show insecurity, and we wonder why these boys hide and cower away when they are abused.

The awareness factor - I attack JoePa, I attack the president, the - the VP, all of these people, because they didn`t do the right thing. And hopefully, through this, we`ll realize that when you`re approached with this or you see this, you step up, even if it`s painful, even if you have to destroy the trust of a close friend, like I`m sure Sandusky and JoePa were. Do the right thing.

PINSKY: Yes. And I`m even going to go further and say, I agree with you, but I don`t even trust people to do the right thing.

EVANS: Right.

PINSKY: On page 12 of this Grand Jury investigation, they state specifically what the law is that institutions and educators must follow. They are obliged by law.

Joe Paterno was obliged by - he`s not actually specifically named here, I don`t think, but Curley and Schultz were the two that had the knowledge, had the information and should have reported to social agency and law enforcement and did not. Although there`s some weird things that happened in `98, in 2002, what (INAUDIBLE) did and nothing happened and -

EVANS: And that`s the sham behind it, because in `98, you cannot - no one will convince me that Joe Paterno did not know in `98 that there was suspicion of guilt for child sexual abuse with Sandusky. And then, again, in 2002, when this GA walks in his office and said, hey, I saw this in the shower. Even --

PINSKY: What did he think when the guy came to him and started talking about what he saw in the shower.


PINSKY: If you came to me and said you saw something in the bathroom, I`d be like, you -

EVANS: Exactly.

PINSKY: Let`s - I mean, (INAUDIBLE) and I`ll tell the police station down the street.

EVANS: Yes. Well, it`s been the argument about what JoePa was actually told. You know, we see - we see the state of PA, what they released, which is very graphic and vivid. And, you know, and JoePa said, well, no it wasn`t explained in that way.

Well, Doc, I ask you, you know, if someone comes and tells you, hey, I saw a grown man showering naked with a 10-year-old boy and he was washing his back with a bar of soap, that`s enough to say red flag. Something - there`s something wrong with -


PINSKY: More than a flag. And again, I`m air lifting over the police station. I`m running there, coming back with -

EVANS: This is how morally defunct as a society we are that people refuse -

PINSKY: Well, but I have a strange - but I think we have the - it`s a strange thing where we`re fearful of authority and fearful of state agencies, which are there to help.

You know, I`ll tell you something - let me tell you something. Give me that camera back. It`s - it`s anachronistic. It`s old fashioned to question and be fearful of authority.

My kids and kids younger than my kids, so teenagers, they look at adults and people in authority as assets. Things there to help them. That`s why we have this kind of stuff in our society.

EVANS: Right.

PINSKY: It`s some sort of weird anachronism of the `60s and `70s that we should fear that.

Sheldon, I`m going to ask you, what would you do if you saw a grown man in a shower with a 10-year-old?

KENNEDY: Well, I think I probably would report it or I`d probably have to go and ask that guy and follow it through. I mean, you know, I know in Canada, I mean, it`s mandatory training in education that every one of our youth leaders in this country, they want to work with our kids, they have to take abuse, bullying, and sexual harassment education training via online through Respect Group Inc., and that`s all it comes (ph).

I mean, Penn State has an opportunity here to, you know what? Face the facts, buck up, and make a difference in a pile of peoples` lives by - be - taking a leadership role, or they can stick their head in the sand and pretend nothing happened.

I mean, you know, we do a lot (INAUDIBLE) -

PINSKY: I think they are finally taking that - that leadership position, but it`s taken a catastrophe to get them there.

Listen to a former Penn State star linebacker LaVar Arrington, who was coached by Jerry Sandusky, who had this reaction when he heard the news.


LAVAR ARRINGTON, FORMER PENN STATE FOOTBAL PLAYER (voice-over): When all these things started being reported, it - it totally - and when I say totally, took me off guard. I mean, I - I was moved to tears.

I looked at my children because immediately I started - I started thinking back to all the moments that - that I had at Penn State and all the moments I had with him and - and just thinking to myself, how hard I worked to please him.


PINSKY: So Heath, what do you think when you hear that?

EVANS: You know what? It doesn`t really shock me, because the great sexual predators, you would never suspect them. They - they`ve kind of done their due diligence. They`ve done their homework. They know the right children to - to kind of prey on.

PINSKY: And - and describe to them how they test them. Because you and I both know there`s a testing process they go through.

EVANS: There really is, and I think it starts with just innocent touch, a touch that you and I wouldn`t even maybe even see as - as malicious or anything.

PINSKY: Well, I - I had a guy on last night who`d been in part of the Second Mile program. He said he would put his hand on his leg -

EVANS: Right.

PINSKY: -- every time he was driving in his car, and that`s that first test to see how he responds.


PINSKY: If he responds - and at-risk kids, they crave attention, they crave love. And the exam, they experience that as someone caring about them.

EVANS: Right. And that`s another part of the guilt because they look back in their mind and they say, well, the first time he touched me, I kind of encouraged it. And they just wanted to be loved. They wanted affection.

PINSKY: Yes. That`s right.

EVANS: They didn`t want to be violated. And that`s where we just find this line of good predators best (ph).

PINSKY: And - and then what happens, if they go too far, kids that have been traumatized before freeze.


PINSKY: And that freeze response is what those predators are looking for, because then, again -


PINSKY: They know it. They can smell it.

Thank you, Heath. Thank you, Sheldon. I appreciate you guys joining me.

I will answer your calls and questions about sexual abuse of children next. Don`t go away.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joe Paterno is no longer the head football coach effective immediately.


PINSKY: Well, the Penn State scandal continues to generate an incredible response. We have been flooded with your comments and questions, so let`s get right to the phones.

Justin in Nebraska, go ahead.

JUSTIN, PAPILLION, NE (via telephone): Hey, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Justin.

JUSTIN: I wonder if - if we`ve desensitized ourselves so far that pedophilia just doesn`t bother us anymore. I realize, you know, legally, there`s probably nothing we can do, but I think this really becomes a moral issue.

PINSKY: Well, Justin, I actually agree with you and - and I disagree with you in the strongest terms. A, we - we cannot - we cannot become inured to this. It is out there. We must fight it. It`s - it`s common and it`s destructive. There are legal remedies and there`s an army of mental health people willing to help.

No, no, no, no. This is something that we are not desensitized to. I disagree strongly.

Jerome writes, "One of the victim`s mother said she tried to make Sandusky promise to never shower with her child again, but he wouldn`t make that promise. What?!"

Yes, I know. That`s in fact what`s in the Grand Jury investigation. Apparently, the mom begged him to change his ways, and he just refused. "No. Why should I? What`s the big deal?" Just, you know, an old - some guy my age having a shower with a 10-year-old. Yes.

No. No. Stop it, guys. Boundaries have to be maintained. These things are damaging and destructive. It`s not just, hey, whatever you`re into.

Back to the phone. Ginger in Tennessee, go ahead.

GINGER, NASHVILLE, TN (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Ginger.

GINGER: I just want to say that I think a perpetrator uses his place of power and authority to take advantage of - of many who are not even as strong as him. And - and I wouldn`t have given it a second thought. I would lose my job, I would bring down an entire program in order to protect even just one 10-year-old boy from being molested and traumatized for life.

PINSKY: Ginger for president. No, I mean - I mean, I - I`m with you 100 percent, my dear, and, the fact is - the fact is, people, A, don`t realize just how profoundly shattering this is for kids. And, B, that they have an obligation to report it.

It`s a legal obligation. It is a moral obligation. It`s an ethical obligation, particularly for people with professional licenses, like myself, or caretakers, or educators.

Catherine writes, "I think Paterno should go to jail for being an accomplice after the fact. If it happened to his kid, I bet he would have handled it differently." And I think that is an interesting perspective that many people had raised, which was what if it was somebody`s child who was closer to the program? Might then they`ve gotten off their rear ends and done something more aggressive?

Finally, Facebook. Yolanda writes, "I don`t understand how a child who was the victim of abuse could possibly want to become an abuser in his adult life. Yet, we sometimes see this," and, in fact, we common - it`s not so much that it`s common that an abused kid becomes an abuser, it`s that the people who are abusers were often the kids who were dying for today. That`s the conundrum of this condition. And, the fact is, once somebody becomes a perpetrator, they don`t do it just once, they do it too many, and that`s how this thing becomes infectious.


PINSKY (voice-over): Now, you`ve heard of TLC`s "19 Kids and Counting." Well, that show may have to change its name, because 19 - well, guess what? They`ve been going on to 20.

We`re going to talk about the risks of that both on a medical standpoint, to the mom, to the child, and the developmental issues and psychological issues for everyone in that family. So, stay with us.


MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR: Well, the headline in "The Daily Collegian" says it all concerning Joe Paterno. There, you see the picture of the legendary coach and the words "the end." that`s the headline. That`s the thing that some people are really grappling with today as Joe Paterno is out.

The new coach, Tom Bradley, new coach for the first time since 1966. That really puts things in perspective. Tom Bradley took the podium as a new coach. He said with a heavy heart, likening Joe Paterno to his own father, saying his own dad and Joe Paterno, they both mean about as much to him. That`s where he is coming from. Let`s listen to what he had to say.


TOM BRADLEY, INTERN HEAD COACH, PENN STATE: The whole week has been something of a whirlwind case. It`s been an unprecedented week. Sure that the board of trustees made a decision with the facts they had. And they decided to do what they did. I often tell my players say that players play, coach coaches, administration administrate.


GALANOS: Tom Bradley got a couple messages. Number one, thoughts and prayers are with the victims. And number two, really urging Penn State students to show class and dignity moving forward. They don`t want to see a repeats of the may ended in sue in the streets here in State College. With that, back to you.

PINSKY: Michelle and Jim bob Duggar, you know them from TLC`s 19 kids and counting. That show may have to change its name because 19 is about to become 20.

That`s right. The couple`s baby boom isn`t over yet. They are expecting another child in April. Now, at first glance, this is just amazing as it strong enough for it. But we have to consider the implications of this. Is it safe? Does it endanger the physical safety of the mom or the new child or the previous children? Is it advisable? How about the impact of the development of the children that they already have responsibility for?

Now, I find it interesting that everyone really attacks the mom, that is (inaudible), I mean, she has 14 kids. It`s merely impossible. But what about this couple? They are sort of glamorizing it, horrified. Here to help me answer these questions are Obstetrician Gynecologist Doctor Jacobson and clinical psychologist Michelle Golland.

Michele, OK, the first question on hand is what`s going on with these two? Why? What? Is it --?

MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I have to say, I was really curious about why? Why is this happening? And I saw an interview. They had a miscarriage after their first child. They had been on birth control.

PINSKY: So, you`re going to say that pain was so intense that they covered for that.

GOLLAND: They actually say that.


GOLLAND: They actually say that. They then went back on birth control after the first was born. Got pregnant while on birth control. Miscarried.

PINSKY: Miscarried the second time.

GOLLAND: Miscarried on birth control with their second child. Like it was an accident.

PINSKY: Right.

GOLLAND: And that was so devastating to them, they turned to God.

PINSKY: That`s when that happened.

GOLLAND: And then they decided to never use birth control and to have as many of God`s blessings as they could.

PINSKY: Now, another concern is how such large families affect development. The father, Jim Bob Duggar, told People magazine "because I`m in real estate, I`m home and can be with the children a lot. When we go to the store or run errands, we take the kids one on one and we get to spend more time individually than a lot of parents do."

Michelle, I call it bogus.


PINSKY: First of all, there`s mom. And nobody can replace mom. And people don`t appreciate how the children really suck apart a mom`s soul out of that attack.

GOLLAND: Absolutely. And part of our brain.

PINSKY: You`ve been through that. I have seen it happen with my own wife. But to try to spread that across. It`s impossible. I mean - and by the way, for people that say people that you know people have always had lots of kids throughout human history. Then I`ll tell you what, yes.

People who had ten kids and six of them wouldn`t make it out of childhood. So they end up with four by the time they were thirteen. And then we need the four to run the farms with agricultural designs.

GOLLAND: And they died earlier. So, --

PINSKY: They died at 35. They couldn`t have the 60 kids. But other 45.


PINSKY: Now, part of the impact this has on the family, of course, the kids. The other question is safe. You know the last baby was premature and had serious health issues when she was born. Take a look at this.


JIM BOB DUGGAR, EXPECTING 20TH CHILD IN APRIL: They came in and said they wanted to air vascular Michelle to another hospital. Because they said they want to have her in a safe place where she could deliver the baby if the baby can be delivered early, premature.

MICHELLE DUGGAR, EXPECTING 20TH CHILD IN APRIL: We didn`t know if the baby could survive at 24 weeks.

I was scared because I thought this baby is too small. Definitely, I realized this was a very serious situation.


PINSKY: Doctor Jacobson, you heard the sound bite from the family about the mom`s brush with death due to this premature pregnancy and the child`s issues obviously. If you were taking care of this mom, how would you counsel her?

DOCTOR MARINA JACOBSON, OB-GYN: Well, first of all, Michelle faces numerous risks with this pregnancy. Number one, she`s 45 years old. In itself, that`s a risk factor of having presumably abnormal babies such as Down syndrome. Number two, Michelle delivered her last baby at 25 weeks due to severe pre-eclampsia. She had to be delivered this early and so --

PINSKY: So, let`s play -- I`m going to stop you Doctor. I have to tell my viewers to pre-eclampsia, is a complication of pregnancy. It`s potentially fatal high blood pressure, fluid retention, the likely abnormality. And once you, I think Doctor Jacobson where you`re going here, once they have it, they are likely to have it again.

JACOBSON: Absolutely right, Drew. So, her risk of having severe pre- eclampsia again at a very early gestational age such as 25 weeks or even earlier is much higher than anyone else that who has never had pre- eclampsia before.

PINSKY: Would you, if you were dealing with them, counsel them not to have more kids? Would you counsel? Listen, I got triplets. When we have triplets, they counseled us to reduce to twins. So, people do get explicit counseling. They don`t make the decision for you, but they go hey, the outcome of triplets are - here`s the data, it`s better for twins. Wouldn`t you counsel this family to really not do this?

JACOBSON: Exactly. As a physician, all we can do or all I can do is counsel my patient and explain the risks involved in each decision. And certainly, my personal recommendation would be not to have any more children, but the ultimate decision is always with the patient. So they are taking the risks knowingly.

PINSKY: So the risk to the mom, the risk to the child, and then the massive development issues in all the kids. The parenting issues and the fact that they are really just trying to manage trauma through having lots of kids. Would you counsel the same thing? Don`t do this?

GOLLAND: Absolutely. Absolutely. What if something does happen?

PINSKY: To the mom? What if some horrible happens to mom? We will have a single dad with 19 kids.

GOLLAND: Exactly. And that`s the trauma or if they lose the baby - let`s say God forbid that something happens, that`s a re-trauma. And they haven`t yet processed the last trauma.

PINSKY: Let`s be clear. What tends to happen to people to act out as real trauma, they end up having the trauma recur.

So, it looks like they have set it up. And then according to Doctor, with Doctor Jacobson is saying there`s a likelihood of real trouble in this pregnancy. As we`ll all have to stand by?

Thank you Doctor Golland, Michelle Golland. Thank you Doctor Jacobson, appreciate it.

Next, exclusive never before heard Michael Jackson tapes.

This was recordings actually of Michael Jackson in an interview when we come back.



RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, FRIEND, SPIRITUAL ADVISOR OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Michael was a troubled man. He needed serious help. He probably needed psychological help and other kind of assistance. And instead of a doctor assisting him, he just gave him more and more medication to dull these pains until it finally killed him.


That was the words of Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, a great and former friend and spiritual advisor as well to Michael Jackson. Tonight for the first time, we will air exclusive audio of Michael Jackson, never been heard before. Michael recorded 30 hours of a very revealing look into the mind into the late pop star.

With us, the author of "the Michael Jackson Tapes, "Rabbi Shmuley.

So, Rabbi, let`s get right down to it and then we can discuss the trial. Here`s Michael talking about the fears he had of his father, Joe.


MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: He was very physical. He`d throw you and hit you as hard as he can, very physical.

BOTEACH: Did you begin to feel like you were like a money-making machine for him?

JACKSON: Yes, absolutely.

BOTEACH: Like how Macaulay Culkin describes (inaudible).

JACKSON: Yes. I`ll never forget one day he said and I hate to repeat it, I`ll never forget it and God bless my father because he did some wonderful things and he was brilliant, he was a genius. But one day he said and I`ll never forget it, he said, if you guy ever stop singing I`ll drop you like a hot potato.


PINSKY: Wow. That was a horrible memory of threatened abandonment. Rabbi, do you think I mean it`s obvious these issues hit deep. In fact, in Jermaine`s book, he talks about how Michael would be struck with a belt. And not just with a belt. As we all know, we were watching footage of this judge down in Texas beating his daughter. Imagine that now with the buckle end striking the child. That`s what Michael was subjected to. How do you think all that affected him?

BOTEACH: One of the reasons I wanted people to hear Michael`s authentic voice and the reason that he recorded these conversations for publications so that he wanted people to know his emotional turmoil.

Before people judged Michael, especially after you hear the drug adult murmurings that were recorded by Doctor Conrad Murray and that were played at the trial. You need to understand, this is a person who suffered.

He had a very challenging childhood. I do not judge Joe Jackson. And I`m not here to in any way incriminate Joe Jackson. Joe believed the best thing he could do for his children was force them to perform so they could be salvaged from the life of penury that the family had in Gary, Indiana.

But Michael wanted love of all that wells. And it wasn`t fame and attention that was going to give him satisfaction. It was the unconditional acceptance of a parent. And one of the things that led to Michael`s demise s I believe is that this is -- the fact that he and his father never reconciled. He loved his father very deeply. He used to speak to me constantly about what a special man his father was.

But he didn`t understand why he was never afforded the opportunity to just be a kid and just frolic and play. And rather than dealing with this psychological and emotional turmoil, Drew, he decided to numb the pain through prescription drug medication. This is why I feel that doctors like Conrad Murray are culpable. They saw Michael`s pain. They saw he was in no position to do these concerts. And it`s not just Conrad Murray. I think he deserves to go to jail, but he`s also a scapegoat for all the others who are not facing their own justice.

Kenny Ortega, the director, read his e-mail at the trial where he wrote to Randy Phillips, the head of AEG, the concert promoter, that Michael was in no position to do these concerts. That Michael needs psychological counseling.

Then why didn`t Kennedy Ortega resign? Why did he continue with the concerts? Why did AEG continue these concerts? It wasn`t Michael serving as a golden-goose laying eggs only as a child performer. Clearly, that was continuing well into his 50th year.

PINSKY: Yes, that`s right. And I will tell you what? It`s not that he needed some simple psychological counseling. Both based on these tapes and based on the medications he was receiving from Doctor Murray and Doctor Klein and these other doctors, he needed comprehensive treatment of a team over a sustained period of time like six to 12 months just to begin to get him on track where he needed to be.

And I agree with you. The unconditional acceptance by the way, Rabbi Shmuley, but every child needs and wants. And just a loving parent being present while they are a child while they deal with negotiating through childhood. If you abort that and head off into a showbiz career, you were risking damaging that child.

But let`s go back to Michael`s father. His seems like he has touching overwhelming force and the influenced Michael all the way up until Michael`s death. Here`s more of the audio. Take a listen.


BOTEACH: Do you still judge your father?

JACKSON: I don`t judge him. I used to. I used to get so angry at him. I would just go in my room and just scream out of anger. Because I didn`t understand how could a person be so vicious and mean? Like just sometimes I`d be in bed at night sleeping, twelve at night, I recorded all day and been singing all day, no fun, no play. He comes home late. Knock knock. Open the door. The door is locked. I`m giving you five seconds if you don`t open it I`m going to kick it down. He started kicking it. Like breaking the door. I said what? "Why are you not signed that contract today? I said you sign it. If you don`t sign it, you`re in trouble."


PINSKY: It seems that Rabbi, when you hear - and that`s the first time I heard Michael express sort of anger. And I like it. I think some of that rage is what he`s disconnecting from and unwilling to own as well as he`s of course he`s disconnected from his childhood. And he tried to recreate that in Neverland. Are these observations you found as well?

BOTEACH: Well, yes and no. I tried to purge much of that raged from him. I remember when went to give the lecture together at Oxford University in 2001, we`re in a car driving from London to Oxford. And I said to Michael that your words tonight to the students at the University will ring hollow if you don`t reach out to your father and express to him affection and a desire to reconnect. And Michael picked up the phone, reached his father in Las Vegas, and said to him, I love you. And there were four of us in the van listening.

And there wasn`t a dry eye in that vehicle because this is what Michael wanted. He didn`t want to be angry at his father. He wanted to forgive his father. I also said to him, in many ways, you can`t judge your father.

Because you know, let`s recall, before we judge Joe Jackson, he was raising nine children African-American family in Gary, Indiana. His father was a steel worker. I`m sure he wanted to save his children from that fate. And he probably believed that by forcing them to be performers because they were talented, they would have a life of resources and means rather than a life of poverty.

So Michael really, I wanted him to stop judging his father. To be sure, the means that Joe Jackson employed rightly is condemned. But I think he loved his children. And continuous to love his children. But the unfortunately rather than healing himself of this pain of the rejection and abandonment that you reference, Drew, what Michael did is he substituted the unconditional acceptance for a parent for the very conditional acceptance of fans. Fans don`t love you for who you are. They don`t love you for your being. They love you for what you do. You excite them. You thrilled them. You dance for them.

And because of that, Michael became more and more dependent on his craft. He became obsessed about his craft. Why do you think he agreed to do 50 concerts at the age of 50 trying to break a world record when he was in no emotional state to do three or four concerts? That`s what else came out in the trial.

Kenny Ortega said he would sit there, rubbing Michael`s feet because Michael was freezing. He wasn`t eating. He was never turning up even for the rehearsals. You cannot use fame and celebrity to compensate for love and relationships.

I also wanted Michael to reconnect with his family. You know it`s a beautiful thing to see the Jackson family showing so support to Michael now in his death. They were there at the trial. You could see the emotional pain that they were experiencing through all the testimony.

But what was really required was for Michael to reconnect with them while he was alive. And all we can do now, now that Michael is lost to us, is try to redeem the death of this superstar who inspired so many tens of millions, hundreds of millions by learning from this tragic example. We need to be closer to our kids. We need to be closer to our families. And we cannot use fame as any substitute for love.

PINSKY: Here`s a Statement from Joe Jackson`s attorney, Brian Oxman. "These things are ancient history. The debate concerning Michael and Joe is ancient. Michael loved his father and provided for him. I was with them hundreds of times when they were together. And Michael and his dad were as kind and loving as could be to one another. Remember the picture of Michael coming to court in his pajamas? It was Joe who was there making sure his son got to court. A picture is worth a thousand words."

Now my understanding though, is your friendship with Michael really fell apart. And he had some sort of a list that people were sort of put on and dismissed from his inner circle. Are you aware of that list?

BOTEACH: Well, I`ve heard of the list. To whether or not it`s authentic, I don`t know. I certainly know that our friendship was severely challenged when I felt I could no longer be of assistance to him because he was dismissing my advice.

PINSKY: Michael Jackson is a prime example of what happens with trauma. So, we have to connect these dots for people. These things need to be avoided as they occur, heal.

We will get Rabbi Shmuley take on the Conrad Murray trial after this.


PINSKY: We are back with Rabbi Shmuley, whose 30 hours of conversation with Michael Jackson were published by the rabbi to honor Michael`s wish to bare his soul and unburden himself. Now, here`s one more of our exclusive never before heard Michael Jackson`s tapes. Take a listen.


JACKSON: I would like to, some kind of way, disappear where people don`t see me anymore, at some point. And just do my things for charity and not be visual. To disappear is very important. Why we do -- we are a people of change. We need change in our lives. That`s why we have winter, spring, summer fall.


PINSKY: Again, it`s really nice to hear him sober in these tapes. I imagine you were dealing with him before he started using substances. But what does he mean here by change and to disappear?

BOTEACH: In the same way, you need to know where to present yourself. You need to know where to make yourself very invisible. And I think he never wanted to be overexposed. He wanted his music and he wanted his dancing and his talent to be appreciated. But when he said that, I kind a panicked.

The conversation goes on with me saying wait a second Michael, you don`t mean disappear like God forbid, you want to leave this world. You want to see your children grow old? He said, yes I do. I do. But I don`t want to become so frail that I begin to forget.

He spoke to me about close friends and other stars who he watched over the years slowly being affected by Alzheimer`s. And he feared that. So Michael always was afraid of rejection on the part of the public. And he feared I think that once he was old enough that he could no longer perform, why would they want him?

You see, he never could accept the people loved him for who he was. And let me make one point clear on this subject Drew, I never saw Michael in concert. He sang for me maybe once or twice in his entire life. I didn`t love Michael Jackson as a performer. I loved Michael Jackson the man. He was a very special man. He had a warm heart. There was a nobility of spirit.

We once went out to dinner with all of my kids. And we`re all ordering and my 8-year-old son is trying to ordering but nobody hears him because he`s eight. Michael interrupts everyone and says to the waiter, there`s a little child trying to get your attention but you don`t hear him. Now, I was his father, and I didn`t hear him.

He was uniquely attuned to the voice of children. And he paid a price for his suspicion of him. But I think now that Michael has suffered so much on this trial, yet again was another just assault on his integrity and his dignity. And all of these doctors, including doctors who weren`t tried, who are now speaking about Michael didn`t have a nose and don`t have a chin. I mean it`s just so undignified.

He deserves to have his memory re-established from the public imagination in the correct and proper and dignified manner. He was a special man. He made his mistakes. He was imperfect. But he did reach for something higher. He wants his fame to be used to heal the world`s children. And that`s the valuable message that we oath never forget.

PINSKY: Thank you, Rabbi. The book is the Michael Jackson tapes. And a couple of words before we go here.

This Penn State thing. Listen. The allegations of sexual assault, rape of children, unspeakable crimes. It is the gift that keeps on giving for obvious reasons. But the thing I want people to understand is, physical abuse, sexual abuse, it changes how the brain functions. It changes the development of the young people and it`s the gift that keeps on giving.

The fact is those people that have been the victims sometimes become perpetrators. And they don`t perpetrate just once. It is exponential growth. And it`s a cancer growing in our society. We must stop it. We must be aware of it.

And please, if you have these sorts of impulses, there`s treatment. Get help before you hurt someone or change your life permanently. I mean this. It`s a very serious thing. We have all to be aware of it. It`s out in our society like never before. And we have to be aware of it.

I`ll see you next time.