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Sandusky`s Alleged Double Life

Aired November 11, 2011 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.

Penn State, a college in chaos, a country enraged, administrators fired, students in an uproar, and crowds rioting. How do we explain their behavior and the undying loyalty?

And how do we explain Jerry Sandusky? Who is he? Could he, would he have sexually violated children? I`m talking to his friends and co-workers and getting answers. We`ll figure this out.

Tonight, the Penn State child sex abuse scandal continues to heat up. We`re hearing more problematic details from the victims` families. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Number one, first and foremost always, the victims. And we now have a mom of one of the victims speaking out. Jerry Sandusky in the Second Mile Program, 2005-2006, 11 or 12 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And at some point he came to you and he said he wanted some information about how to look up sex weirdos?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said he wanted to see if Jerry was on there, and you just can`t tell Jerry, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened here was grooming. Give them gifts, establish a trust.


PINSKY: HLN`s Mike Galanos is at Penn State.

Mike, wide receivers Coach Mike McQueary has been put on administrative leave. Now, he`s the guy who at the age 28 years of age, as a graduate assistant coach, allegedly saw Sandusky molesting a 10-year-old in the showers, in the locker room. What`s the reaction there on the ground?

MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR: Well, he - you know, Drew, since this began, even supporters of Joe Paterno were saying Mike McQueary has to go and we were wondering why not now.

Because as the university has move forward, made their moves, obviously let Joe Paterno go and talking about distractions, how would McQueary not be a distraction? If he`s roaming the sidelines on game day - so it finally happened as this played out, so I think everybody`s agreeing that is the best thing.

And we knew that there`s also threats against Coach McQueary, so that factored into this I`m sure, as well.

PINSKY: Mike, I - he`s the guy in this whole saga that is sort of the most sympathetic and tragic character. He`s a 28-year-old kid. He runs into this. He actually when he saw it, he ran home to his father, then reported it to all the appropriate people.

The Grand Jury found him to be one of the most credible witnesses in the entire thing. Why does he have to bear the burden for all of this?

GALANOS: Well - and let me give you a little bit further, Drew, the back story of this. His father knows Coach Sandusky, the former Coach Sandusky. Mike McQueary grew up with Sandusky`s kids. So basically he walked in on his friend`s dad allegedly raping a 10-year-old. That`s the backdrop of this, and the back story.

This isn`t a guy he just coached with. He`s known him since he was a kid. So that`s another thing to all this. And as it`s described, he`s distraught, doesn`t know what to do. And then goes to his father. Father tells him to go tell Joe Paterno.

PINSKY: But I - but I`m a little outraged here. I got to say, Mike, that this guy has to take the fall and that people are pointing their fingers at this guy and there are threats on this guy, who has been himself in my opinion one of the victims in all this.

GALANOS: I think the sentiment from here - from many was if Joe Paterno`s going to take the heat, Mike McQueary needs to take the same heat because he witnessed it that he should have done something. There`s even - hey, why didn`t Mike McQueary stop Jerry Sandusky in the middle of the act, that`s what you`re hearing, Drew.

PINSKY: Wow. And finally, are things settling down on campus right now?

GALANOS: Yes. There`s been a change. I`ve talked to some students today, and there`s been a shift. And there`s going to be a very large candlelight vigil. They really want to make the victims the focus all over again. And I had some students, they were singing the Alma Mater and telling me - there`s this one line in that Alma Mater, "May we not do anything basically to shame the school." And he said, it`s a whole new meaning now to him, the responsibility that goes with being someone who goes to Penn State.

PINSKY: Thanks, Mike. We will talk more about what`s happening on campus later in the show.

But first, people who knew Jerry Sandusky are truly shocked tonight. The introduction to this guy`s book, which was, by the way, titled "Touch" - an irony which speaks volumes today. It reads like he`s the greatest man ever to have lived. His daughter raves about him. She calls him, quote, "the greatest man she`s ever known." His colleagues rave about him. Even President Bush raves about his charity work.

How is it that a person who is charged now with 40 criminal counts of serial sex abuse of minors, how is it that he could be perceived by others as such an angel? How did everyone who knew this guy see him as a hero?

I`m going to try to look into this tonight and pull that curtain back a bit. Tonight we`re going inside what appears to be a level - a double life. Who, after all, was the real Jerry Sandusky?

With me tonight are two of Jerry Sandusky`s closest friends, Jerry Fisher, is a former board member of Sandusky`s charity, The Second Mile. Kip Richael has said he`s proud to call Jerry Sandusky a friend. He`s also the co-author of Jerry`s book "Touched."

Now, Kip, you met Jerry when you were just 18. And in your book you say, quote, "There`s a Jerry version of the story and then there`s what really happened." Can you - does that statement have any more sinister meaning to it now than it did back then?

KIP RICHAEL, SANDUSKY`S CLOSE FRIEND: No. And it was never intended to be sinister. It was more - Jerry was always kind of a guy that could just - like a gag kind of person. He told stories that just - if it was a basic story, he could really turn it into - into an adventure. That`s what I was - my inference this was.

PINSKY: But let me ask you this. Is it the case - because, see, I deal with people like this when I - in my practice over the years. And I have to empathize with guys that do horrible thing. I just have to sit there and get in their heads a little bit. Is it possible he was a good guy and a child abuser? Is that the same guy? Could it be -

RICHAEL: It`s always possible.

PINSKY: Yes. And usually there`s -

RICHAEL: It`s always possible.

PINSKY: Yes. And usually there`s some evidence of that. I mean, he could be a great guy. I understand that. Like Conrad Murray could be a good cardiologist, just in certain circumstances things weren`t so great.

Did you have any hint, did you ever think, hmm, did anything ever make you pause?

RICHAEL: In my time with him, no, I really didn`t. I was a college student who worked with him through football during my day as a football manager. We did have a friendship where I could go over on occasion, not very often, but on occasion, have dinner with his family, which has always been, you know, was a very nice family, and things like that.

But I was never privy to anything that - that`s going on today that`s being discussed today. I never saw it, never - wasn`t familiar with it at all. And to me, this is exactly how I`ve been looking at this, that it has to be some kind of a - a dual personality or something because the Jerry I knew at that time I was very proud of. But obviously if he`s - found guilty, I wouldn`t be proud of him at all. I`d feel betrayed by -

PINSKY: Jerry Fisher -

RICHAEL: -- by my friend.

PINSKY: Jerry Fisher, you were a member of The Second Mile board. I guess you still are a board member there. I`m going ask you the same question. Because I understand that people can be both good and bad. And sometimes they don`t show you the bad. They - they are very deeply ashamed of it and disavow it and hide it carefully.

Did you ever have any instinctive sense of that I wish I would have listened to that instinct sometime in the past?

JERRY FISHER, SANDUSKY`S FRIEND, FMR. "SECOND MILE" MEMBER: I have to say no, absolutely not. Jerry Sandusky was one of the nicest guys I have ever met. I worked with him many times with many golf tournaments, fundraisers, charity events to raise money for the Second Mile. There was no indication whatsoever that he had any of this inside of him.

PINSKY: Coming up, more with Jerry Sandusky`s close friends. We`re going to ask about his home life.

This guy was known as a family man with a loving wife, adoring kids, adopted kids. Were there some dark secrets? Who was the man they knew? We`re going to have some evidence. Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mentioned his wife, Dottie, and what is she going through in all of this? And your interactions with her and did she take an interest in you? Was she involved or was it more you and Jerry Sandusky?

TROY CRAIG, SAYS SANDUSKY TOUCHED HIS THIGH: It was definitely, you know, more initiated by Jerry for certain. But I remember her being very, very kind, very soft spoken.


PINSKY: We`re back talking with two of Jerry Sandusky`s close friends.

Many are wondering what was his family life like. The "Patriot News" reports that the earliest sign of trouble was in 1995. Now, listen to this - Sandusky`s son Matt was a teenage foster child in his home. So he was a teenage foster kid that he took care of. He was placed there at Jerry Sandusky`s request. So he was brought into Jerry`s home. Jerry knew the boy through the Second Mile Organization.

About four months after he went to live with Jerry, Matt attempted suicide with a girl who was also staying at Sandusky`s house. Matt`s biological mother, Deborah, Deborah Long, wrote letters saying she was concerned about Matt`s safety and mental condition and asked that he be sent to a different foster family. It`s worth noting that Matt, who is now 33, is not one of the victims in the Grand Jury investigation.

The day Jerry Sandusky was arrested, his son Matt brought his kids over to his dad`s house. The mother - listen carefully to this - the mother of Matt`s children went to court to prevent future visits.

Now Kip, several passages in your book Jerry dedicated to his son Matt. That`s the same Matt. What do we know about their relationship?

RICHAEL: I really honestly don`t know a whole lot about his relationship with Matt. I did meet Matt. I think if the timing is right, I think around the time that I was writing the book. I think Matt was a student at Penn State, if I`m not mistaken, around there. And I think he - I`m not sure, but I think he was even working as a student manager at that time. But I`m not sure about that.

But I only met Matt a few times, and - and didn`t know him a whole lot. He was very quiet.

PINSKY: Jerry, were there ever any complaints that you were aware of from children or parents in the Second Mile Organization?

FISHER: None that I`ve ever heard of. None at all. This is all a total shock to many of us.

PINSKY: And again, you know, it`s -- we`re trying to make sense of all this, you know, how this was - how this possibly could have gone on for as long as it did, why it was sort of seemingly covered up the way it was. And then you think about some of these allegations where this abuse was going on, in the locker room, in the showers and the locker room. The sort of the magnitude of this becomes mind-boggling.

I imagine for those of you that have worked and known him and thought of him as a good guy, it must be even more mind-warping for you.

FISHER: Well, to be perfectly honest with you, we had heard for the past couple of years that something was in the works, of an investigative way. And then when the Grand Jury`s findings came out and were published and you read the 23-page document, it`s unbelievable. The magnitude of these charges, the magnitude of the alleged incidents never, ever would have expected anything like this.

And I can guarantee you anybody that knew Jerry Sandusky is absolutely reeling at this time because they had absolutely no idea anything like this could be possible from that man.

PINSKY: Did you know his wife?

FISHER: I know Dottie. My father was the play-by-play announcer for Penn State football for 30 years. And we - all the kids kind of hung out together as we were growing up, on bowl trips and things like that. And you never suspected anything.

Dottie was a wonderful woman, a great mother. The family was a great family from everything you saw. Again, just overwhelmingly surprised at what has all come out.

PINSKY: Is anyone talking to her, how is she doing? Is there any sense that she knew anything? And then as a follow on to that question, you said people knew there was something in the works for a couple of years. Were they circling the wagons? You know, I can`t imagine what was happening during that two-year period.

But first the wife, did she seem OK now?

FISHER: Well, no. I don`t think anybody`s talked to any of them. In the Second Mile Organization, with the family, everybody`s trying to talk to them. But I don`t think they want to talk to anybody right now. And I really can`t blame them.

Those that when I said the rumor was in the works for the past couple of years, members of the media, of which I am one of them, we talk. And you hear thing about this and you hear things about that. You don`t think much about it until the proof comes out or something - the story`s truly broken. But when it came out, the magnitude - I can`t emphasize the surprise or the magnitude of these allegations.

PINSKY: And now, Jerry, you`re standing there on the campus in Penn State, I assume that`s what we`re seeing behind you there. And let me ask you about the behavior of -

FISHER: The Administration Building behind us.

PINSKY: Well, let me ask about the behavior of the administration. I mean, again, when you read that Grand Jury investigation, you see Shultz and I think his name is Curley distorting the truth. You see this - what seems to be a graduate student, trainer observing these horrible things, going to the appropriate authorities, and it sort of dying. There being maybe two police investigations in `98 and 2002.

Is there something endemically pathological with the administration right now? Is something wrong?

FISHER: Well, I think that`s what the board of trustees feels, and that is why they decided to fire President Graham Spanier the other night. They also fired Joe Paterno. I think they are very concerned about a systemic problem within the university.

I do applaud the board of trustees for taking steps. I`m not sure I agree with all the steps, but that`s a whole other issue. But I --

PINSKY: Let me ask you this --

FISHER: I think they want - OK.

PINSKY: I`ll ask you this. Is there a bigger problem in Pennsylvania generally amongst educators? I mean, the Grand Jury is very clear that a law was violated. That there is a law in place requiring people dealing with young people to report these things to social services and law enforcement. Is there a lack of awareness about this? Is there some bigger problem in Pennsylvania?

FISHER: I don`t know if it`s a lack of awareness or if it was just not doing what you were supposed to do, in this case and other cases.

One of the things, Doctor, that I`ve been telling people is that I hope that this does one good thing - one good thing comes out of this. And that`s that there`s more awareness of this type of thing. That people when they do their due diligence, when they hire someone in their organization or something like that, that they`re very careful about who they hire.

I don`t want to see overreaction where if a gentleman pats a kid on the back and somebody goes, oh, what`s he doing - I hope that type of thing doesn`t happen. But if anything, maybe this will bring awareness to this problem and - and hopefully we don`t find any more of it out there.

PINSKY: Well, there`s a lot. There`s tons of it out there.

Kip, I`ll give you the last word. How do we - how do we go forward with all of this shattering information coming through?

RICHAEL: Well, I think one of the things - one of the things I`d really like to see is people were talking about canceling this game tomorrow and all that. That`s been the big talk, at least in Pittsburgh Radio. And I don`t agree with that at all.

I - everybody, players on up, coaches, they understand the severity of all this. But I think the kids need to play and let these players and - start a - start a healing process that the board of trustees has given them now to do, allowing them to start this. The board of trustees I thought did a lot of the proper things to get this righted, this ship righted. And I think the players can now go out and hopefully set a good example that, hey, we`re going to start making people proud of Penn State again.

It`s very unfortunate, that everything that has occurred. My heart goes out to these victims and families.

PINSKY: And, by the way - thank you. Thank you, Kip, and thank you, Jerry.

And by the way, maybe this will reorder priorities a little bit. Penn State is an excellent academic institution. Why don`t we start valuing that piece of what Penn State has to offer as opposed to just praying at the church of the football stadium, in the football organization?

I mean, I`m a football fan and I`m a college football fan, but I`m just saying - I sent my kids to school for education. That`s what counts to me is the academic part of this. The extracurriculars are just that. And here`s a case where it became much, much more and though of itself was much, much more, and I think that`s where the endemic issue got out of hand.

The case has prompted many of you to come out of the shadows and real - reveal that something terrible was done to you as well in your youth. I`ll be answering (ph) - the common problem of abuse, such a common problem. I will be answering questions from some of you who were sexually assaulted as a children in the "On Call" segment after the break.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I was really just disappointed in the way that things were dealt with last night. I - and, as I`ve said, we`ve lost focus and lost hindsight completely of the real issue at hand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now I think it`s time for us to refocus.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is about victims. This is about someone who has been, like, assaulted, and they should not be, like, overshadowed.




PINSKY: That was the Penn State concert choir, singing to honor the sex abuse victims, and there may be thousands and thousands of you who have remained silent, perhaps for a lifetime, about having been sexually abused as children. This is sickeningly common.

Now, some of you are beginning to speak up as a result of the Penn State scandal and calling me now with questions. I will try to help.

Let`s begin with Brenda in Michigan. Go ahead, Brenda.

BRENDA, CHEBOYGAN, MICHIGAN (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Brenda.

BRENDA: I just want to say that I agree with you, that the sexual abuse scandal at Penn State is not a sport story.

PINSKY: Right.

BRENDA: People need to think of the victims.

I am a sexual abuse survivor myself, and I wish somebody would have stepped in and stopped my abuse, but nobody ever knew about it. I was threatened so I wouldn`t tell anybody.

PINSKY: That is how the perpetrators keep their secrets. That is exactly what so many people, unfortunately, go through. And the people you trust - and I - I know a lot of your anger for people not having stepped in are directed towards the people closest to you, who maybe either didn`t know or didn`t want to know.

It`s a real common thing that people manifest with this problem. They don`t - they don`t want to know. They - it`s too much. It`s too painful, especially if something like this had happened to them, which is common for sexual abuse.

Some perpetrators like - particularly women that have been sexually abused, will sometimes bring perpetrators into their life without knowing it.

Let`s go to Kathleen in California, your thoughts?

KATHLEEN, LATHROP, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN: I just wanted to say that I think it`s our duty as humans to step in and stop a crime against a child.

PINSKY: Of course.

KATHLEEN: When did we start wondering how it would affect us before we acted? I`m just ashamed of society and ashamed of those who think of themselves first before the victim.

PINSKY: I`m going to hope that`s not what happened here. I`m going to hope it was ignorance that led to this kind of - what seems to be a cover-up.

But, everybody out there, I imagine every state in the union - I assume you know California has very rigorous standards for this. You got to report this if you even suspect it. There`s laws around this, and they`re there for a reason, to protect the victims.

Let`s go to Jaymie in New Jersey. Jaymie, what you got?

JAYMIE, HACKENSACK, NEW JERSEY (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Jaymie.

JAYMIE: I`m concerned that now, since I`m a senior here at Penn State, that instead of going for job interviews and having someone say, "Wow, a Penn State degree," they`ll look at the degree and associate it automatically with the scandal.

I`m devastated about these events, but I`m trying to keep my Penn State pride, staying away from like the riots because of all the - it`s about the victims, not the football.

PINSKY: I am hoping that people remember Penn State as a great academic institution and maybe not be so focused on the football. I`m hoping this works to your behalf.

Let me see that Facebook question up there, again, please. Put it up there.

Karen writes on Facebook, "I hope that someday mental health care will be as necessary as any other medical care. I`m determined to be a part of advocacy for the special needs of sexual abuse survivors."

That is what I hope comes out of this. Great, great point, Karen. Way to go. Let`s let that be all of our credos after coming out of this nonsense. We`ve got to do something about it.

Next, I want you to think about this. If one of the alleged victims in this case had not come forward, we may never have known about any of this. When we come back, a man who played for Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky.

And later - it`s an exclusive, by the way. And later, how are the students on campus dealing with this scandal? Stay with us.



PINSKY (voice-over): A dark cloud hangs over Penn State ahead of tomorrow`s home game. The college rocked by a child sexual abuse scandal. Some students rioting in support of the man they call Joe Pa. Do they just not understand how serious this is?

Others rallying in support of the victims. How do they move forward, the college, the community, and especially the victims. I`m answering that question with the help of two Penn State alumni, a child sex crime prosecutor and former NFL star, Brett Conway, who played under the Accused Jerry Sandusky.

All that, plus new reaction from the mother of one of the victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The allegations against Jerry Sandusky date back as far as 1994.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1998, there was a police investigation in which he made admissions about inappropriate contact in a shower room. The year 2000, janitors observed a sex act in the shower room, and because they were afraid for their jobs, didn`t report it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 2002, a grad student reported seeing Sandusky sexually assaulting a 10-year-old boy. That graduate assistant reported the incident to long-time head football coach, Joe Paterno. "I referred the matter to university administrators."


PINSKY (on-camera): The scandal at Penn State is ripping the university apart. Emotions are running high in Happy Valley and across the country. Legendary coach, Joe Paterno, gone. President Graham Spanier, gone. The assistant coach who says in the grand jury report -- and by the way, he was the one in the grand jury report that was most sort of felt credible by the grand jury -- he was the one that witness Jerry Sandusky sexually abusing a boy in the shower of the locker room.

He was just placed on administrative leave. Earlier today, the mother of one of Sandusky`s alleged victims spoke with ABC`s "Good Morning America."


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want justice. I want him -- I want him to be locked up. There`s no help for somebody that does this. There`s -- you know, not like this. There`s -- he needs to be put away. He needs to be put away for a long time.


PINSKY: This brave young man told his mother what happened, and that`s not easy to do because these victims are often terrorized, paralyzed with terror. When and how does the healing for these victims begin and for the school and the community?

Joining me tonight, former NFL player and advocate for victims of childhood sexual abuse, Heath Evans, former NFL player and Penn State player who played under both Paterno and Sandusky, Brett Conway, Prosecutor of child abuse and sex crimes and author of "My Body Belongs To Me" Jill Starshevsky -- Starishevsky, I beg your pardon, and a Penn State correspondent from "In Session" on truTV, Beth Karas.

Beth, with all the media attention on campus, big game tomorrow, what`s the mood like tonight?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Well, it`s actually pretty quiet where I`m standing right now, but this was the scene of the riots a couple of nights ago. Students are now going to be holding a candlelight vigil shortly behind me at the old main building.

They expect 8,500 to 10,000 students, and this is for the victims of these crimes that have been alleged against Jerry Sandusky. So, students are outraged at the firing of Joe Paterno, but they`re also feeling compassion for the victims.

PINSKY: Here is some Penn State students` reactions to the firing of Coach Paterno. Watch this.


(CHANTING) We want Joe! We want Joe! We want Joe!


(CHANTING) Penn State!


(CHANTING) You`re welcome!


PINSKY: Brett, do you have a take on how these students are reacting?

BRETT CONWAY, FORMER PENN STATE PLAYER: You know, I think -- it`s a tough time. I think any reaction right now by the students needs to be thought out and needs to be in a positive manner. And what happened the other night was (INAUDIBLE) and I think everybody was shocked and were saddened by the accusations that occurred.

PINSKY: My understanding is you`re gathering a group of former players together tomorrow to go to the game. What is your intention there?

CONWAY: You know, again, this is about Penn State football current, past, getting together and trying to do something positive out this terrible tragedy. I was reached to by a number of people, and we`re going to -- you know, again, we`re going to try to rally around the team tomorrow. I can`t imagine what they`re going through and move forward in a positive way.

PINSKY: And Brett, you played under Sandusky. Did you ever have -- this is a question I`m asking a lot of people tonight. Did you ever have any moment where you just kind of -- you paused for a second and thought that`s funny and then you sort of rationalized it away?

CONWAY: Never. Never. It`s a total shock to the whole community.

PINSKY: Jill, you`ve seen the damage and the aftermath of what predators do, but what about Jerry Sandusky`s wife? She must have been suspicious -- you know, as those of us that deal with trauma survivors know or perpetrators for that matter, is it very often women that have had victimization themselves will magically bring victimizers into their life. Do you think something like that is going on?

JILL STARISHEVSKY, PROSECUTOR: You know, it`s possible, but it`s also not uncommon for these men who are predators to be very effective and very slick at what they do. So much so that their own family and own wives couldn`t possibly imagine it. So, that may be what`s going on here.

He was very good at ingratiating himself with the people who he worked with, and I don`t think his wife suspected a thing.

PINSKY: Well, so much so there`s so slick. These are like disavowed parts of themselves that most of the day, they`re in denial about themselves. I think they walk around thinking I`m being a good guy, and maybe a compensation for the bad piece of self they`ve got stuck in their head, but they disavow it, so of course, no one else gets to see it.

HEATH EVANS, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Very true. And I always tell people that hurt people hurt people. It wouldn`t surprise me if Sandusky was a victim himself as a young boy.

PINSKY: Not only -- you and I talked about this during the commercial break, not only a victim. My instinct tells me that something happened with him in a shower, in a locker room shower, because that`s a bizarre impulse to -- to be needing to put himself at that kind of risk in that kind of an environment. That`s bizarre.

EVANS: You see 2000, the janitor`s eyewitness, 2002, Coach McQueary sees him this time. Again, this goes back to -- this is the frustrating aspect because I want to help these victims. I want to help these kids. So, these kids that were abused by Sandusky don`t end up being predators themselves or falling in the same traps that Sandusky was found in. Do we he was abused as a small child, no.

PINSKY: That`s why let goes (ph).

EVANS: But the signs are there.

PINSKY: Yes. That`s what happens. Brett, I want to go back out to you. What about the fact that this has been reported and reported and reported, and yet, seemingly there was either inadequate attention directed toward these allegations or even a full-scale cover-up. How do we understand that?

CONWAY: You know, it`s hard to say right now. I think everybody`s got a lot of reaction. It`s all negative. We never saw this coming. I don`t think we have all the information to really make a -- a full judgment yet. I really don`t. I think that there`s going to be more that comes out, and hopefully, it`s -- it`s not a cover-up.

I`ve known Joe Paterno and Mike McQueary and Tim Curley for a long time. And knowing these men`s deportment, I can`t imagine that this is a cover-up like everybody suggests.

EVANS: Hey, Brett, can I ask you one thing? I mean, obviously, you spent six years in an NFL locker room. Obviously, your time there at Penn State. For me, a decade in the NFL, all my years at Auburn.

The structure of what I saw happen inside professionally run locker rooms, even collegiately run locker rooms by strong-minded coaches like a Joe Paterno, if you survive four decades in college football, you know everything that goes on underneath your roof. I mean, what are your -- you`ve been in these locker rooms, you know the structure.

You know kind of the order, the pecking order that it goes. You also know that Joe Pa, he was the president. He was DAD (Ph). He was the man in charge in that university. So, give me some insight on how you think that they didn`t know.

CONWAY: That`s the question everybody wants to know. I don`t know how to answer this. You know, all I can speak to is what an impeccable reputation Joe Paterno has. And I can`t imagine a man like this knowing about this. At the same time, you know, it`s worrisome that he did know about this. And I don`t know, and I can only hope that, you know, we get to the bottom of it.

PINSKY: Thanks, Brett. Heath, you think it`s possible that he just was too old to be doing the job he was doing? Is that possible he didn`t have full control of the reins?

EVANS: Let me divide this --

PINSKY: And he was more of a mascot than actually a head coach?

EVANS: Well, I mean, Joe Pa can`t possibly be a mascot. I mean, he had power there. He had structure there. It was his way or the highway. That`s how you run an organization. But ultimately, when we try to say that he`s 84 years old and we back up ten years ago, was he, you know, in the mental well-being to make a judgment call? The answer is yes. Hands down, yes.

PINSKY: He was.

EVANS: If he`s in any power whatsoever there now, he had the ability to make the right judgment call a decade ago.

PINSKY: Jill, my last question is to you. What needs to happen next is really this means to work through the legal system. How long is this going to take? What -- what kinds of investigations are likely to happen? Heath and I were talking, we`re concerned that internal -- internal reviews, investigations are going on.

We`d like to see dispassionate, objective third parties go through this. Is that kind of thing likely to happen? How long is this all going to take, do you think?

STARISHEVSKY: Absolutely. You know, there is going to be this civil matter that`s going to take years, and it`s going to be a lot of depositions, and a lot`s going to have to take place to get to the bottom of this. But what I think we need to do is kind of step back for a moment and stop talking about Joe Paterno and whether he knew or didn`t know or should have acted and use it as a teachable moment.

While the whole country and the whole world is watching, we should use this opportunity to ask ourselves why wasn`t the child telling, why aren`t children telling, what can we do to get children telling when this happens to them and stop it from happening in the first place. So, unlike what we did with the Catholic Church and with boy scouts, we need to use this opportunity to start talking prevention.

PINSKY: Jill, I agree. Heath, I know you agree wholeheartedly. And next, through no fault of their own, Penn State students have been drawn into a web of scandal. Why did some react so violently while some are blaming the media? And how are they reacting to the events that are unfolding tonight on campus?


SAM MESSA, PENN STATE STUDENT: I know I wasn`t in his position, but I feel like any normal human being when they see something like that happening, they would react a lot more with better intent than he did.




VOICE OF JESS SEVER, CO-ORGANIZER, PENN STATE CHILD ABUSE VIGIL: This entire situation, the allegations of abuse are absolutely horrifying. And we really want to put a focus on the victims, the ones who need our support the most. Just as Penn State students, we`ve always been proud of our tradition of helping and caring for others. And we`re not about to let that end now.


PINSKY: Tonight, Penn State students are holding a candlelight vigil on campus for the apparent and alleged victims of the former coach criminally charged with having abused them. Wednesday night was a different story. Some students reacted rather, well, in fact, violently to the news that Joe Paterno had been fired.


(CROWD noise)

PINSKY: Where in this tape is the outrage over the young boys who were allegedly abused by Jerry Sandusky? With us, Penn State student, Davis Smith, Penn State student, Catherine Janisko, and Penn State student, Jeff Lowe, who is also the PR coordinator for Paterno-Ville. Jeff, what exactly is Paterno-Ville?

JEFF LOWE, PENN STATE STUDENT: Well, Paterno-Ville is a tent village that we set up outside the stadium. It`s been going on for quite some time. They got the name Paterno go back in 2005. You know, I say this all week, with no offense to Joe Paterno and he wouldn`t take offense to it, but we camp out for the players.

That remains the same throughout this week. We`re there to get front row seats at the game. First come, first serve. And we`re there to support the players and the team.

PINSKY: Davis, do you think Paterno should have been coaching the game tomorrow?

DAVIS SMITH, PENN STATE STUDENT: I think Joe Paterno for all that he`s done to the university and what he stands for and based on the evidence that`s out right now, I think he should be given a chance to coach the game tomorrow based on what he`s done and what he stands for.

PINSKY: And Catherine, can you tell me about the blue-out for tomorrow`s game, whatever that is?

CATHERINE JANISKO, PENN STATE STUDENT: Yes. Absolutely. The Penn State usually holds a whiteout which is a really, really big deal for the university, but tomorrow, we`re actually doing a blue-out at the game, which all students are going to dress in blue supporting against child abuse.

So, this is going to be a really important time for the university to reach out to the general public and show everyone that we really truly do care about these victims involved in this case, and we want to show the victims themselves and their parents, as well.

PINSKY: Well, Catherine, you do say -- you say that you care about the victims. I want to challenge all three of you. Have any of the three of you read the grand jury investigation? It`s about a 26-page document, and it is stunning. Are students reading that document?

LOWE: Yes.

PINSKY: And have you?

LOWE: I`ve read the document. And I think most of the students have either read it or understand that and even the students that were downtown rioting. And I think that`s the disappointing thing. People say students need to read it. I think student have read it. I just think the entire Joe Pa situation has overshadowed that.

And it`s unfortunate because the victims are the ones people should care about more than anything else, above Joe Pa, above the university. And when the dust (ph) kind of settles here, people will see that students do care, and they`re going to do a lot about, you know, raising child abuse awareness because of it.

PINSKY: Don`t you guys also hope -- go ahead. Davis?

SMITH: Just from -- for some perspective, I`m a local resident here, as well. My family lives and works in state college. I just want to say that this whole scandal and what the university means to Penn State is -- it`s done everything that I`m not trying to make light of any natural disasters or anything like that, but this scandal really has rocked the community as much as a natural disaster.

But instead of a physical toll, it`s been a spiritual and emotional toll on the community as a whole. And we do not take light anything that happened to these victims. And, we respect every decision that`s made by the administration so far.

JANISKO And Dr. Drew, just let me add to that real quick --

PINSKY: Go ahead, Catherine.

JANISKO: Is that OK? OK. Let me add to that really quick because I, myself, read the grand jury report, and it was 23 pages of just complete -- it was so hard to get through that report. I was in class, actually, when our professor mentioned it to us. And, that was something that was so hard for me to read. I could barely get through it.

PINSKY: Yes. You know what, I actually had the same experience, and I`m -- I`m not a resident. I`m not as rocked as you would be there at the institution. Wouldn`t it be nice, though, by the way, guys -- you know, Penn State is a great academic institution.

Wouldn`t it be nice if this shed a little light on the academic prowess of the school and let the football be something on the side and really talk about what great students and what great academic program they have there?

JANISKO: Absolutely. I think so. This university -- I just got here this semester, and I think it`s important for people to know that despite all of this turmoil that the students have been going through and these families and these victims have been going through, this university has one of the highest education rates in the country.

I have been so blessed to have an education that I have here. And what I`ve been learning has been so helpful for my future. The professors here are wonderful. And you have to meet these students. Some of these people are magnificent at this university. And we all need to focus on that.

PINSKY: And finally, Coach Sandusky -- go ahead, please. You guys go.

SMITH: Adding on to that, I think the students here really -- what was the question again? I`m sorry.

JANISKO: The academic --

SMITH: The academics. Go ahead. Sorry.

PINSKY: We were to say, Davis, that wouldn`t it be nice if the academic sort of -- how great an academic institution this place actually is began to be the focus of, perhaps, what rises out of this horrible tragedy for you guys. That people paid attention to that and, yes, great football institution, as well, but there`s a great academic institution here.

SMITH: Right. What I was going to add on is that I think a majority of the protests in the support of Joe Paterno is in response to the villainizing of Joe Paterno by the media. It`s not in response to the allegations against Sandusky, but it`s more in response to how the media has portrayed such a man like Joe Paterno and what he means to our community.

LOWE: But I mean, at the same time, too, I think --

PINSKY: Guys, I got to stop you. I`m out of time. I got to stop. I thank you guys for your comments. We will look forward to talking to you more in the future. We`ve got to go. I`ll be right back.




(CHANTING) You`re welcome!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here for Joe Pa, it`s that simple.


PINSKY: Welcome back. Our next guest is the author of many books, including something I love, "Friday Night Lights," which chronicled how football affects an entire community and how it can consume and even be the single unifying factor for an entire town or region for that matter.

Buzz Bissinger is at in-state college tonight. Buzz, what`s your take on the rally around Paterno at Penn State?

BUZZ BISSINGER, AUTHOR, "FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS": Well, actually, I`m not at state college, I`m in Philadelphia. I follow this whole thing closely. You know, the rally, it`s hard to say how representative that is. You know, Penn State is a school of 50,000 people. Obviously, there`s -- there are a lot of people in state college who are very devoted to Joe Pa.

I just wonder have they read the grand jury report. I think every student should. You know, I pay taxes in Pennsylvania. I`d be happy to pay more taxes to have them read it. But them read it, and then, let them decide if Joe Pa is the great father figure that they think he is, because I think that grand jury report clearly shows that he really failed as a man to do what he should have.

PINSKY: Let me ask you this, because I agree. When you read that report, there`s two things that jump out. Either educators in that community don`t understand what their reporting requirements are or they really covered this thing up. You`ve actually described this -- you said the mafia has higher standards than Penn State university officials. Is there a mafia-like structure there?

BISSINGER: I mean, I think there is, and I didn`t say it facetiously. In the mafia, one thing you don`t do is harm children. If a soldier harms a kid, he`s going to be killed. That`s the way it is in the mafia. At Penn State, it is clear -- we do know some things. This is not speculations. We know that a graduate assistant (ph) who is 28 years old, according to his own testimony, was an eyewitness to a hideous act of rape basically by Jerry Sandusky on a 10-year-old.

We do know that Joe Paterno was informed of something. And even if as he says, well, I heard it was fondling, or horseplay or some type of sexual activity, that in and of itself is serious enough. We do know that there was an investigation in 1998 that seems to have gone nowhere, although there was a lengthy police report filed by the state, Penn State Police.

Trust me, coaches know everything. There are no secrets. Barry Switzer at Oklahoma was quoted as that today, they know everything. If it was a secret, it was meant to be a secret. And I believe they knew in 1998. I also believe they felt Jerry Sandusky was a loyal Penn Stater at great defensive coach. And they decided to protect their own.

PINSKY: I`ve got about 30 seconds. Do you really believe that they thought this would never amount to anything? That they could continue to sort of ignore this or deny it and it would go away?

BISSINGER: Yes. I mean, I think they obviously did, because I mean, I think -- look what happened. They must -- they can`t be that stupid. These are smart men. They must have realized if this gets out, this is going to be a thunderstorm and tsunami. They must have figured we`ve got it under control, everything`s OK.

Years go by, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, but, they don`t realize That Jerry Sandusky allegedly is a serial sexual predator, and unfortunately, they aided and abetted in that, and some kids got terribly, terribly hurt.

PINSKY: Thank you, Buzz. I appreciate those comments. Thank you for all watching. I`ll see you next time.