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Sandusky: I`m Not a Pedophile; Penn State: How Could it Happen?
Aired November 15, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Jerry Sandusky tells his side of the story. He admits to horsing around and showering with kids! His words, not mine! Who and what are we to believe now? We`ll try to answer that question and others.
How do child molesters get away with these crimes? Why do victims and even trusted adults remain silent? If people could stop a pedophile, would they? Let`s get started.
Good evening, welcome to this special edition of our show.
Now, we are hearing from Jerry Sandusky for the very first time since he was arrested. He says he is not a pedophile. But what he admits to, well, I don`t know what you call it, but it`s pretty close to pedophilia. I don`t know what - listen to this.
BOB COSTAS, NBC SPORTSCASTER: Mr. Sandusky, there`s a 40 count indictment. A reasonable person says, where there`s this much smoke, there must be plenty of fire. What do you say?
JERRY SANDUSKY, FMR. ASSISTANT COACH, PENN STATE (via telephone): I say that I am innocent of those charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what former Penn State Assistant Coach Jerry Sandusky told Bob Costas last night in an interview for NBC`s "Rock Center" with Brian Williams.
SANDUSKY: I have horsed around with kids. I have showered after workouts. I have hugged them and I have touched their leg without intent of sexual contact.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then Costas asks Sandusky about his contact with children in previous allegations from an alleged victim`s mother.
COSTAS: During one of those conversations you said, "I understand I was wrong, I wish I could get forgiveness," speaking now with the mother. "I know I wouldn`t get it from you. I wish I were dead."
SANDUSKY: I didn`t say to my recollection that I wish I were dead. In retrospect, you know, I shouldn`t have showered with those kids.
COSTAS: Are you a pedophile?
SANDUSKY: No. Am I sexually attracted to underage boys?
SANDUSKY: Sexually attracted, you know, no. I enjoy young people. I love to be around them, but, no, I`m not sexually attracted to young boys.
PINSKY: Horsing around in the shower with children. And now he says maybe I shouldn`t have done that. Maybe not.
First of all, I don`t know why his attorney let him have that interview. We`re going to talk about that just in a second. But this is guilt on guilt. You know, the specifics, I don`t need to hear any more. I`m already completely disgusted.
All right. Joining me to talk about this, Heath Evans, he is a former NFL player and advocate for victims of childhood sexual abuse and an NFL network analyst; Michelle Gollen is a clinical psychologist; Trent Copeland is a criminal defense attorney, and on the phone Peter Pellulo, he himself was abused as a child, his organization, "Let Go, Let Peace Come In" is working with one or more of Jerry Sandusky`s alleged victims.
Trent, why did the attorney let him do this interview?
TRENT COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You and I had the same discussion several weeks ago when we talked about Conrad Murray -
PINSKY: Conrad Murray, same exact thing.
COPELAND: -- and we had the lawyer who allowed his client to give his two-hour plus interview. I don`t understand for the life of me why a lawyer would allow his client, who has so much exposure, who has so many things to answer for to start that answering process outside of court of law.
Because, look, remember, all of these statements that he`s giving now to Bob Costas, to these various television and radio networks, any of that stuff is all discoverable and he can be - it`s all incriminating. And all -
PINSKY: It sounds like some laws were broken there in my mind. All kinds of inappropriate conduct.
COPELAND: There has been inappropriate touching. That is a battery in and of itself. It`s a sexual battery.
PINSKY: It`s a sexual battery. (INAUDIBLE) naked in a shower with a 10-year-old.
COPELAND: I don`t understand it. I don`t understand it.
PINSKY: This is unbelievable. Peter - Peter, you yourself were a victim of this kind of behavior. What are your thoughts of hearing this Sandusky interview?
PETER PELLULO, WORKING WITH AT LEAST ONE OF SANDUSKY`S ALLEGED VICTIMS (via telephone): Well, what`s sad, Dr. Drew, is that an interview and statements like this just revictimize these young men once again. It was clear to me, obviously this man is in complete denial and displays the classic characteristics of being a significant narcissistic person. Making it about how everyone is misunderstanding him and his innocent actions of taking a shower with boys is ludicrous at best.
As a survivor and as I write in my own book, the young men from Penn State described in the Grand Jury report the type of sexual violations and acts are not from merely being in a shower with this man. So it`s just - it`s just beyond comprehension that he would get on and say that it was horsing around.
PINSKY: And, you know, just the fact that he could think that that`s an adequate defense.
Now, Heath, you work with an organization that works with abused kids. Your wife herself is a survivor. What do you make of the Sandusky interview?
HEATH EVANS, ADVOCATE FOR VICTIMS OF CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE: You know, I love the tough questions that Bob Costas asked.
PINSKY: He was brutal.
EVANS: It really kind of let us into the mind of Sandusky, the way he kind of shied around answers. But ultimately how delusional this man is, that he truly doesn`t see anything wrong with his actions.
PINSKY: Michelle, isn`t that the issue here?
MICHELLE GOLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.
PINSKY: He is doing these completely inappropriate things and going I guess maybe I shouldn`t have done that.
GOLLAND: Exactly. And he wants to make it about the victims` feelings and interpretations, right? He said at one point, well, I`m really sorry that if he felt that way about it, you know, it becomes this sort of like it`s just a simple touch or a simple thing. It`s so manipulative.
PINSKY: There`s also a peculiar quality of what the interview that Bob was asking very hard questions. I mean, I personally wouldn`t ask those questions. And I would be afraid the guy would kill himself if I exposed - I`m fearful for this guy`s well-being, Sandusky, right now, frankly.
COPELAND: So am I.
COPELAND: And, look, we have the issue of the bail and the fact that he really doesn`t have a bail, this unsecured bond. I`m concerned about this guy`s well-being.
COPELAND: Look, when I hear this guy, I`m not sure he`ll ever even really make it to stand judgment in trial because this is someone who clearly seems to be unstable, irrational, he`s trying to justify experiences.
PINSKY: Completely inappropriate things.
COPELAND: All kinds of inappropriate contact with children as being simply a misunderstanding.
GOLLAND: Well -
PINSKY: Michelle, hold on a second. There`s one other thing, though, he`s also - whenever Bob Costas asks him how he feels, his response is, "Well, how do you think I feel?" It`s not how he feels. You see he`s avoiding because he doesn`t feel anything maybe or he only feels the way people, you know, real sociopaths will only put out what they think other people want.
GOLLAND: Well, that`s what he is. And I have to say, I don`t know if he`s going to kill himself. Because there may be enough narcissism in him that, you know, narcissist don`t like to kill themselves, they just want to prove themselves right.
PINSKY: Except - except when their narcissistic shield is truly ruptured. Trent, you`re trying to comment?
COPELAND: Look, I think he`s entitled to presumption of innocence. Look, I believe in our constitution with the greatest country going. I believe in that and I think he`s entitled to that presumption, but this does not sound like a rational man. This does not sound like someone who really understands the - the fundamental problem with what he`s done with these children -
COPELAND: -- even as much as showering with them, touching them inappropriately, those are all from a legal standpoint, he`s already committed a crime and I am frankly outraged that he would come on national television.
EVANS: And as you, Dr. Drew, it is the gift that keeps on giving. And we`ve discussed, we think this guy was probably a victim himself. And so he can`t even truly wrap his mind around what he`s done to these victims because it was done to him. And he just stepped back, I`m not in this.
PINSKY: Guys, we got a lot more to talk about. You`re going to stay with me throughout the course of this show. Thank you so much for those comments. I personally am deeply, deeply unsettled by those comments. I don`t know where this is going to go with Sandusky, but it doesn`t seem like it`s going to go to a very good place.
Next, a grown man witnessed the rape of a 10-year-old boy but did not stop it. How did that happen? We`ll try to look at that.
Many more on this special - many more questions and tough questions hopefully. This is our special edition. Stay tuned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAVAR ARRINGTON, FORMER PENN STATE ALL-AMERICAN LINEBACKER: This is a call. This is - this is our time and it`s our duty. This serves as the ultimate wakeup call. If this isn`t enough to wake us up and get motivated and look at one another and be a protector of one another, if this isn`t a good enough wakeup call, then I don`t know what is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE AMENDOLA, SANDUSKY`S ATTORNEY: Jerry is very, very depressed. He`s very upset. He`s very distraught about the charges, the allegations, and the knowledge that regardless of whether he`s eventually proves his guilt or innocence, that people are going to think that he did this now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jerry Sandusky has been arrested and charged with 40 counts of sexual abuse of young boys. He is currently out on an unsecured bond.
Now, for the rest of the show tonight, we`re exploring the tough questions all of us have been asking since this abuse scandal broke out last week.
First, right now, I want you to listen to what eyewitness Mike McQueary told a Grand Jury about what he saw. Now, this is graphic. Please, I warn you, I didn`t even want to read it myself. I must tell you. Let`s deal with what`s in the record. Here it is.
"As the graduate assistant coach entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He saw a naked boy whose age he estimated to be 10 years of age being subjected to anal intercourse by naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed that both saw him. The assistant - the graduate assistant left immediately distraught."
Now, when many of us first heard what went down with victim number one, which is who`s referenced in that quote, first question. How could an eyewitness to a child sex abuse crime not intervene? And, I mean, it`s easy for us as armchair quarterbacks to sit back and go, run to the police. I think most of us would.
But this young man ran to his family, who then took him to the administration. He believed he was unloading it to everyone he needed to, who was in authority, the case in point for the rest of us. Go to the police. Go to the authorities.
Now, I want to turn to a special guest tonight. Ed Smart is the father of Elizabeth Smart. Elizabeth was abducted from their home in 2002 at age 14 and held captive by a known child sex offender and his wife.
Now, Ed, you have your daughter today because someone intervened. Thoughts on McQueary not doing something in that moment perhaps.
ED SMART, DAUGHTER, ELIZABETH, WAS ABDUCTED BY A SEX OFFENDER: You know, I think it is inexcusable. I think he should have stepped right up there and stopped and saved that boy. I mean, I don`t know how long we are going to keep listening to these types of stories.
What we really need to do is step up to the plate and empower these children to be able to say no to these people.
PINSKY: I`m afraid you`re right. I`m afraid you`re right, Ed.
Now, Heath, if you saw what`s going on there, I mean, you know a lot about this, you know to jump in, do whatever it takes. I mean, I - and even knowing what I know, I think I would have a hard time not like run in to a law enforcement. I`m not sure. I would have even wherewithal, you know, it would even shock you so much. You`ll just like walk out in a daze, I understand that.
EVANS: Well, as a small child, I mean, it`s engrained in our DNA, you go to the cops. You run to the police. And the thing is, too, yes, you go tell a head coach and you run to your dad, you do so-called the right thing. But, you know, months pass by, weeks pass by and nothing is being done about the situation. You still see this guy on campus, then do something.
PINSKY: And then he - then he worked for them for a long time.
PINSKY: You wonder how he was able to work in that organization. Michelle, you`re shaking your head.
GOLLAND: I have to say, the problem is this - this guy, the assistant coach, was 27. He also went to his father and his family and they didn`t take action.
It is this bystander effect that we don`t empower enough for other people to intervene in a dangerous or frightening situation, and we have to.
PINSKY: And Trent, now we have a situation where a judge is doing some things that look somewhat suspect. I mean, shouldn`t - shouldn`t everyone in and around that campus be behaving in a way that is, you know, sort of cannot be reproached in any way?
COPELAND: Yes. I don`t think there`s - there`s no question about it. And, look, for me, I - I look at this two - two different ways.
First of all, the judge has done something that I think is absolutely inexcusable. Look, the judicial system and our confidence in the judicial system can only work if we believed that there are no back room deals, people aren`t acting shady. We can`t have a judge who looks at this case, where there are multiple victims, multiple witnesses and have a judge say look, I`m going to send this guy out on unsecured bond.
And what that means is, look, he didn`t have to post any money. He didn`t have to post a bail. He was able to walk in that courtroom and then walk out without having to do anything.
Let me -
PINSKY: And with nothing - no monitor, and I think - don`t people don`t understand how - how bizarre that is as a standard.
COPELAND: It couldn`t be more bizarre.
COPELAND: Because, typically speaking, if you have a traffic ticket, in some instances, and you fail to appear, the judge will typically order you to post a bond of $2,500 on a traffic ticket, something - these are serious allegations. This is molestation of multiple children, and the fact that this judge let this guy walk out of the courtroom without posting anything, without taking his passport, without shackling his leg, without putting electronic monitor on that leg is outrageous.
But let me quickly respond to this. Look, we talked about going to the police, a 27-year-old graduate assistant - this is also a former football player.
COPELAND: This - not only should this guy have gone to the police, but before he went to the police, how he could not have walked into that shower and taken some (INAUDIBLE) action.
COPELAND: I can`t understand it.
PINSKY: We can`t understand. It`s easier for us to say that, but I can understand somebody being so like, "Did I see that?" like questioning themselves, walk out, talking to themselves, like, "What did I just see?" and then run to the cops. I don`t understand not doing something after you kind of -
GOLLAND: I think that this is where this whole conspiracy of greed, power, money and career, and that`s what he was concerned about. And, quite frankly -
PINSKY: Oh, you think his career?
PINSKY: His career? Oh, boy.
GOLLAND: And I think that`s what his father was concerned about it, and I think that`s what everyone`s been thinking about.
PINSKY: Ed, go ahead. Ed Smart, go ahead.
SMART: When are - when are we going to teach our kids, when somebody crosses this line, I don`t care what you do, you do something. You say no. And - and your - and our kids are empowered to do this because I`ve had several people in the past say you can`t put the responsibility on the child. Well, that just isn`t true.
It`s the child that`s being abused, and the child needs to know where those limitations are, when somebody makes them feel uncomfortable, say no and know what their options and choices are. We are just not providing the skills and the opportunities for our children to be able to say no.
GOLLAND: Well, the problem is, is that children have child brains and they don`t have the power to deal with the manipulation.
You know what? Sandusky is a sexual predator, OK? A predator is someone who knows exactly what they`re doing. They are manipulative. He is cunning. He probably started this organization. And that - we can`t expect -
PINSKY: And - and a good predator chooses their victim carefully.
GOLLAND: Of course. And we - we expect a child to be able to stand up when a 27-year-old man doesn`t go in there and -
PINSKY: But I do agree with Ed.
GOLLAND: -- physically take this child away?
PINSKY: I do with Ed. I believe we can educate kids.
COPELAND: We have to strengthen and -
PINSKY: Trent is trying to say something. Go ahead, Trent.
COPELAND: There`s no question -
SMART: What we do, though - what we do is we talk, we talk to children and we say don`t do this or don`t do that. But we don`t train them. We don`t give them the skills and they don`t know what their options or choices are.
And I understand children shouldn`t have to be responsible, but in this day and age we will hear case after case after case, which you will highlight, and until we really take on the responsibility of training and helping our children to understand, I believe that if we do help our children to understand and we empower them, that they can say no, and they can stop the abuse from happening.
I understand we need to do everything else we can do, but we can`t say that no, the - the children are too little. We can`t ask them to help themselves. I`m not placing any blame on the child.
PINSKY: Trent, go ahead.
COPELAND: Ed - Ed - but wouldn`t you agree, Ed, that in circumstances like this where we just don`t know what the relationship was between Sandusky and this child - we really don`t even know whether or not the child might have said no. This might have been a forcible rape.
This might have been the child`s saying something -
COPELAND: -- look, you know what? I don`t want to be a part of this. (INAUDIBLE).
PINSKY: Usually it don`t work like that, though. Usually they manipulate in the shower, give some (ph) and then do all that kind of good stuff. I mean, they`re much slicker than that. Much slicker.
COPELAND: Look, I`m sure there was some grooming involved.
COPELAND: I`m certain that some of the - the more traditional ways that a molester takes advantage of these children took place there.
But, in this scenario, we simply don`t know what happened because we saw a grown man, a 56-year-old man, all over - all over a child that was 10 years old.
PINSKY: But Trent, he was just horsing around. How dare you. Just horsing around in the shower, naked with the young boy.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. Panel, good job.
Coming up next, this is emotional time for the students in Happy Valley, and we have to remember that they, too, are just kids, but did the students initially care more about the football coach than the crimes against children perpetrated by one of their own?
We`re going to try to answer that question next, so don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA GOLD, PENN STATE STUDENT: It`s so important to put the victims first. I think they`ve gotten really lost in all of this. You know, all the media attention has been focused on Sandusky and the university and our reactions, and it should be focused on helping these victims and stopping it from happening again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We think it`s absolutely ridiculous that he got fired over this sort of situation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The second I heard it, tears were in my eyes. He`s done so much for our university, and it`s not even - it`s not even funny. He - in 10 minutes, he made - he got $10 million, something like that, for our - our library. What a guy.
CROWD: We want Joe. We want Joe. We want Joe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here to get JoePa for our last home game. He`s retiring this season. Let him play his last game. It`s that simple.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, those were the initial reactions of the students last week when Joe Paterno was fired. But when game day arrived on Saturday, there was a much more united front for the victims as the fans wore blue in support. Now, it seems like the students initially cared more about football and JoePa than the crimes against these children, perpetrated by one of their own.
Heath, football is a religion to some people. Still, wasn`t this reaction a little bit disturbing? At least they brought it all the way around.
EVANS: Very true. And it was loyalty that moved to insanity, and that`s really what it was.
And, listen, we`re all loyal. I mean, that`s what makes the game of football so great, inside the coaching, staff, inside the locker room, but they moved from the loyalty factor into insanity. They couldn`t even get past what JoePa has done for the school in the midst of what he had done to the victims or the lack of.
PINSKY: But I think the - I got to defend the students. I`ve been talking to students all week long and - and last week, and I do think they have come around, finally.
PINSKY: But, Michelle, you`re still outraged at this entire situation. We keep trying to process it -
GOLLAND: Yes. You know, I have to say, my feelings about Joe Paterno is that he has an opportunity to actually be the hero he was supposed to be. Everyone thinks that he`s the hero because of what he has done at Penn State. I hope, as a child rights advocate, that this is when our country has a paradigm shift around sexual predators, and Joe Paterno has the opportunity to make that impact.
PINSKY: And Trent, last - to you, a question. Do you think there`s something - I get this funny feeling that something`s going on on our college campuses where the administrations feel insulated from the law of the land and from the law enforcement organizations locally. That they - they handle it. We`ll handle everything. It`s our internal problem.
PINSKY: I`m hearing that`s a nationwide issue. Is - are we uncovering something bigger here about how college university administrations function?
COPELAND: I don`t think there`s - there`s any question about it. And look, we - we don`t have to look very far. We can look to the Catholic Diocese. We can look to that scandal.
It`s an institutional problem, and the problem is that they`ve become so insulated, so - so within their own world, their own realm of - of how they operate and function, they have their own governmental entities - remember, the Catholic Diocese has its own institutional issues of -
PINSKY: But - but at least you could - (INAUDIBLE) that`s church and state issue. I mean it`s kind of like you could almost get your head around it.
But listen, when - when the - when the administration goes, well, we`ll handle it, and they don`t airlift Child Support - Child Protective Services in or the local law enforcement, how is that possible? And what else is going on?
PINSKY: Listen, by the way, there`s drinking going on in college campuses, there`s drug use going on in college campuses. It gets (INAUDIBLE).
And - and college administrators say it should be legalized. I`d say there`s a problem there.
COPELAND: It`s always been that way, and - and they do it because it`s always been that way, and that`s not an excuse.
PINSKY: It`s got -
GOLLAND: It`s about money. It comes down to money and power and donors and college student applications. And, I don`t know about you, Dr. Drew, but where do you want to send your college student? You certainly aren`t going to send it - send your child to some place that they`re going to report the rapes that actually happen or the date rapes -
PINSKY: All right. I got it. OK -
GOLLAND: -- any of that.
PINSKY: OK, I - this - this is a panel I would like to invite back soon.
Boy, I got to break right now.
Now, next, do you know if your - now, listen to this - husband, boyfriend and close friend is a child molester? And how could you not know? Some answers, after the break.
PINSKY: Penn State child sex abuse scandal envelops the nation.
POLITAN: Penn State in the midst of the biggest sex scandal to rock college sports.
COOPER: What head coach, Joe Paterno, knew and when he knew it.
PINSKY: We discussed how a witnessed a child sexual assault could fail to intervene.
Next, I`m asking why did loved ones of the victims missed the signs and how do pedophiles insert themselves quietly into our trusted institutions. These are groups dedicated to improving the lives of children, but they are magnets for molesters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Welcome back. Tonight, we`re looking at the tough questions in the Penn State child sex abuse scandal and trying to come up with some answers. One question that has a lot of people talking is how could an alleged predator`s family not know about his, shall we call it, his other life.
Joining our discussion, Jerry Fisher, he`s former board member at Sandusky`s charity, the Second Mile. Jerry, you know, you knew Mr. Sandusky, and how do you figure people didn`t know what was going on or perhaps did they? I had somebody say that well, you know, he always had these young kids around him, but your brain fills in and goes well, he`s just trying to help them out.
You come up with your own explanation for why the kids are always around him. Looking back and kind of shake your head and go, hmm, I wonder if I should have thought more of those things.
JERRY FISHER, FORMER BOARD MEMBER, SECOND MILE: Well, when I think back of the times that I`ve seen Jerry Sandusky around young children, he is a very amiable guy. He`s a guy that had a lot of fun with the kids. He had a lot of fun with adults. There were many gatherings of Second Mile functions that everybody just had a really good time together, and it was a multitude of people, adults and children alike.
Your guests can probably tribute to this more than I can, but I`ve been told that child molesters are very, very manipulative. They know how to make things work to their advantage, et cetera, et cetera. And, he just was very good at what he did, if these allegations are all true. He had a lot of people very, very fooled throughout his career.
PINSKY: Michelle, you`re shaking your head yes.
MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I have to say, you know, I thought a lot about this and how it is in our society that we`re going to be able to actually change the tide of this, and what has to happen, Dr. Drew, is we have to see sexual predators, particularly, pedophile child rapists and sexual abusers just like we do serial killers.
This is no different. They are manipulative. They plan it. They do all of the things to set it up, except they don`t kill their victim. They anally rape their victim. That`s what they do.
PINSKY: People aren`t aware. I mean, we talk about the abuse of males here. I mean, Trent, you must see in the courts young girls being abused even more frequently than the males. I mean, I know I do in my clinical work.
TRENT COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Statistics bear that out. Statistics are that, you know, typically females are more widely abused.
PINSKY: And by people closer to them.
COPELAND: People closer to them, and typically, it`s family members.
HEATH EVANS, ADVOCATE FOR VICTIMS OF CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE: Females report it more, and the males are too rough and tough to actually come out and say this happened to me --
COPELAND: And you should also bear in mind that, look, the average molester molests to the degree of about 117 victims.
COPELAND: We`ve got eight or nine in this instance. So, I expect there`s probably going to be more. And the reason for that is because they`re so good at what they do. There`s this grooming period. There`s this process of manipulating the children. They give them gifts. They take them places. They make them feel good. And typically, those people begin to associate with them on a very positive level. For that reason, some people don`t always report it.
PINSKY: Well, not only that, we are hearing from kids that are in treatment now of Sandusky`s little population, they feel bad for Sandusky. They feel bad for the football program to identify with the abuser.
EVANS: That is the natural train of thought even with my poor wife for years, she felt so bad for people around her, and I`m pleading, Beth, please, listen to me. I`m worried about you and your emotional status, in your mind, in your heart beating, and your life. And these predators, they inflict mental wounds.
It`s like emotional cancer that just eats these victims alive. And now, you`re hearing these people say, I feel bad about the football program and I feel bad for Joe Pa. And really, the message is screw those people, they`re the ones that hurt you. They could have set you free.
GOLLAND: But I really, really believe, Dr. Drew, we have got to change the laws around sentencing. That is the key to stopping this.
PINSKY: Trent, attorney here, what do you think? Will she have any luck there?
COPELAND: Well, frankly, you know, changing the laws it will take a lot of time because it will have to go at the legislative level. We`ll have to start there, but the reality is the laws are stiff. I mean, they are -- child predator laws --
COPELAND: The problem is in the investigative role of the prosecuting agencies, I think people simply are not reporting these things, and I don`t think because most of these children are being molested by family members, I simply don`t think it is ever seeing the light of day.
EVANS: And here`s the thing, the thing got me involved with this after Beth Ann. In Montgomery, Alabama, a girl, three years, raped viciously for three years, and the judge convicted this predator of rape and first-degree assault. He got 60 days in the county jail because they said sexual abuse predators cannot be rehabilitated.
Are you kidding me? Sixty days in county jail. This young girl`s life was ravaged for three years, and his main excuse was 60 days, county jail, we can`t rehabilitate this guy, so why should he waste time in our jails.
GOLLAND: And that`s the thing.
PINSKY: Michelle -- how do you think the wife and people around these individuals cannot know that this guy is an abuser?
GOLLAND: I think they are highly manipulative.
PINSKY: By the way, the wives of abusers often were abused themselves.
GOLLAND: Right. And again --
PINSKY: So, they actually have to admit to themselves that they brought another perpetrator into their life. They are shattered by that.
PINSKY: I have a question for all this panel here. 117 victims for the average victimizer. Isn`t anybody here outraged that for years, probably 15 or 20 years, those of us that worked in and around this problem, we`re hearing constantly, oh, it`s just something we`re talking about more. It`s always been around, but we`re just discussing it more now. It is growing like a cancer in our society. All agree with that?
COPELAND: It is an insidious disease. It is eating at the very fabric of our families, the very fabric of the relationships that we have with people, and certainly, people are talking about it more because it`s part of the national dialogue. But the reality is, this is an insidious disease that is destroying the fabric of our society.
EVANS: Sex sells everything this day and age. We wonder why our young men grow up with this perverse mindset of women are property. We take them as we please, we abuse them. In the men stuff, I don`t even understand.
GOLLAND: But the issue around these pedophile sexual predators is that many of them were abused as children themselves.
PINSKY: OK. Stop there. I`m going to stop there. I`m going to go to Jerry Fisher, poor Jerry is standing in the rain. I want to get to you, Jerry, and I appreciate you coming out with us tonight. We`ve gone out into outer space with our little panel here, because we are people that work with the problem all the time and have for years, and it really gets us going.
I guess, the question that Michelle raised and I want to raise with you, has Jerry ever talked about himself surviving adversity in his childhood?
FISHER: No. I`ve never heard anything about that in my conversations with him, and as I said on the show with you last week, I introduced him hundreds of times at events and functions to benefit the Second Mile, and there really hasn`t been anything like that come up in any of our conversations, nor have I heard anybody talk about anything like that around Jerry Sandusky. That would be a big surprise to me.
PINSKY: Although, in my world, it would either, you know, work in the service of at risk youth, either themselves were hurt or they have worked with it so long they have come up to understand that it`s a big issue. My question Jerry going out to you in the last couple of minutes here is, Second Mile is an important mission. How is it going to carry on? What is it going to do to get on from here?
FISHER: Well, the executive director and president, Dr. Jack Raykovitz, resigned today. a lot of people are waiting to see if anyone else resigns. One of the big things I`m kind of pushing for is I would really like to see someone step up and pick up where the Second Mile might leave off if it does, indeed, go away.
There were 100,000 kids that benefited from the Second Mile organization. It would be a shame if every one of those poor kids doesn`t get the benefits that they have gotten before. I would hope that someone could help pick it up, whether it`d be 50 kids, 100 kids, 1,000 or 5,000 kids.
There are a lot of kids out there that were touched by the Second Mile in a very, very positive way. And if we can find someone to try to keep that role going, that would be tremendous for these kids who do need some help. There are kids that need help. And I`m sure your panel understands that.
PINSKY: Jerry, and I hope you will pick up the crucible (ph) and continue to work with at risk youth. Those of us listening to the program tonight, we cannot let this problem go away and somehow shy away from the service of those in need because we`re fearful of being accused of something. That`s not what we`re talking about here tonight.
We`re talking about getting at the people that are the perpetrators and continuing to serve those in need. Jerry Fisher, I hope that you`re able to pick up the good work and continue in the manner which it was intended. Thank you, Trent, Michelle.
FISHER: Well, I implore a lot of other people to try to do the same.
PINSKY: You betcha.
OK. Next, the Catholic Church, the boy scouts, and now, Penn State football, all embroiled in scandal. We`re going to talk about why pedophiles head towards these institutions. We`re going to try to answer that when we return.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR FOR PENN STATE: I enjoyed being around children and I enjoy their enthusiasm. I just have a good time with them. Kids are growing up awfully fast today. It isn`t what happens to you that`s important, it`s how you react to it. One of the biggest things would be the trust that would be developed. What we`re trying to be is what we think to be is a true friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was in 1987, NBC News interview with Jerry Sandusky, talking about his work with children. So, why do pedophiles seem to gravitate towards what we call respected institutions? The Catholic Church, for instance, hid and protected hundreds of pedophiles that threatened its very foundation. Boy scouts had its scandal.
Heath, is it fair to compare those institutions with Penn State?
EVANS: I think it is. And I think there`s really only one reason. I mean, there`s just more pickings. And I know that sounds very, very bad and insensitive.
PINSKY: Go where there are young boys.
EVANS: Yes. And then, the good pedophiles, like you said, they will find the weaker ones that they think they can manipulate, and then, that`s what ends up happen.
COPELAND: I think there`s also the other issue of there being those institutional safeguards and protections that are in place that are built in. Mechanisms that they can take advantage of. Look, you know, you go and there are protections and there are policies and procedures, and they embed themselves in those policies and procedures, and they get protections from them.
There`s a hierarchy that they find themselves at the very top of, and so, they really sort of get there and they`re able to nest. They get there, they`re able to groom these young kids. They get something --
GOLLAND: The children and the institution.
COPELAND: All stems from that, and I think there`s no coincidence that we find it with boy scouts, Catholic Church, and now, we find it with this college, a large few (ph) state institution.
PINSKY: Now, many people want to know what a pedophile looks like, so to speak. I mean, they look like anybody, but let me read this in characteristics of a pedophile and how they operate. Now, first of all, they can be anyone. That`s what you got to remember. It really doesn`t differentiate how people appear.
Often, however, it`s a male, often over 30. They often prefer children close to puberty. Pedophiles work, of course, around children as we`re saying. They target children that are shy, handicapped, withdrawn, of course, children at risk that to say who`ve been abandoned, neglected, or abused themselves.
Sometimes, they come from underprivileged homes. They shower kids with gifts and attention. And Michelle, it sounds exactly like the way Sandusky was operating.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. I mean, again, these individuals choose their victims very specifically. They may be the single mother, so that they don`t have -- the mother is single. They don`t have to deal with that --
PINSKY: But Michelle, I think, important thing for people to remember is for those people argue, for instance, that discipline kids is OK, hitting kids, that kind of thing, those are kids that become perfect victims for victimizes of all types. Anybody disagree with that statement?
PINSKY: You disagree?
EVANS: No, I don`t. I absolutely do not disagree with that statement.
PINSKY: OK. So, those of you that are not paying attention to your kids or are physically abusing your kids or having any kind of violence in the home or emotional abuse in the home, you are potentially putting your risk for victimization by guys like this.
GOLLAND: And we should be very interested, if there is someone who is taking a big interest in our child, all of a sudden, and it doesn`t really feel right or it doesn`t make sense, but this individual, he really specifically targeted these kids.
PINSKY: It`s perfect.
PINSKY: These are at risk youth.
EVANS: Well, these are the kids that don`t have a mom and dad at home teaching them appropriate touch. I mean, I`ve got a seven and four-year- old. They know --
PINSKY: Now, Heath, I`m going to ask you to stop, because your wife was a victim of sexual abuse.
PINSKY: Does she mind us talking about this?
EVANS: No. No.
PINSKY: And you work with these organizations that serve this community.
PINSKY: I want you to point out how a victimizer works with kids that are hungry for attention.
EVANS: Well, I mean, listen, we all love affection. I mean, I love it from my wife. I loved it from my parents. It is a natural, like God- given instinct, and so, these predators, they search out these kids that don`t get it at home, and then, ultimately, I think these predators, because they were abused themselves, most of the time, they feel like they`re doing something good for these kids.
You saw it in Sandusky`s verbiage. You build trust, and we teach them the good things in life. All this verbiage --
PINSKY: Things they need.
PINSKY: Good for them.
PINSKY: And we`re just horsing around in the shower, guys. What`s the big deal?
COPELAND: That`s right. And as a result of there being physical violence at home, and it doesn`t always happen that way, but in many instances --
COPELAND: They begin to devalue the physical touch. They being to devalue their bodies in that way, and as a result of being abused physically, spanked, hit, smacked around, suddenly, when someone touches them in inappropriate way, that`s OK because it`s consistent with the devaluing.
GOLLAND: And they start slowly. That is what grooming is.
PINSKY: Michelle, we`ve heard from stories from some of the young men that worked with him that when he would ride on long car trips with the boys, he would start at putting his hand on their knee. And the kids didn`t get a little bit weirded by that, he put the hand somewhere else, and then, end up in the shower and horsing around.
GOLLAND: Testing the limits. And the thing, you know, I work with sexual abuse survivors all the time --
PINSKY: We all do, right? One way or another.
GOLLAND: And one of the things that is also very confusing, even for some of these boys I`m sure is that when they`re being touched, there may be moments that it feels good. It`s our bodies, can`t help but react.
EVANS: We`re sexual beings.
GOLLAND: We are. You start touching --
PINSKY: Then they feel extra guilty and extra responsible and extra ashamed, and then, they really can`t speak out.
EVANS: And that`s the lie that sets in their minds. And then they said, well, I was an active part of this because it felt good. And he told me this so that is true. That is the biggest thing that we battle because the victim, they put themselves in that role of, I was responsible.
EVANS: But that`s where it goes back. We have to teach kids what is appropriate touch. I mean, my hands are constantly all over my girls, because I want them to know what proper love and affection is.
EVANS: And then, our kids don`t know because these are at risk kids that don`t have a mom and dad. They don`t have people instilling those things in them.
COPELAND: Isn`t it also fair to say that it`s that guilt that is the engine that allows us to continue to move forward because they`re afraid of going public. They`re afraid of someone that matter, because something they feel like I`m guilty. I`m going to get this person that, otherwise, cares for me --
PINSKY: Let`s talk about the solutions. Let`s talk about the solutions. First, Trent, what are the solution from the legal standpoint?
COPELAND: From a legal standpoint, I think we have to do a much better job of investigating stories, kids, even at a young age who come and they tell us that this guy touched me inappropriately. Sometimes, kids don`t use that word. They wouldn`t use inappropriate as a word. They might say he touched me kind of funny. He touched me in a way that didn`t make me happy.
GOLLAND: It is weird.
COPELAND: I think we need to pay attention to those signs, and I think at the moment that that happens, a mother, a father, a caregiver needs to go to the institution, and it needs to be taken seriously.
EVANS: Cops, police?
COPELAND: That`s right. Cops, police.
PINSKY: And most states have requirement for people that work with kids, children services, requirement.
COPELAND: There`s a mandatory reporters have to take it to law enforcement.
PINSKY: I don`t think the institution of Penn State really knew what the reporter requirements are.
PINSKY: But let me say, boy, I got a minute left either you guys. How do we deal with these kids once they`ve have been gotten at? It`s a long process to heal. Can you nutshell it for people to understand so it doesn`t become something transgenerational, which inevitably it, something that`s passed on to other kids, that other victims become part of the picture here. What do we do? How do we treat them?
GOLLAND: Again, obviously, you start with individual therapy.
PINSKY: There are resources for kids anymore --
EVANS: We`re providing it.
PINSKY: There you go.
EVANS: We are located in service states, but we`re here to fight that battle.
GOLLAND: And Dr. Drew, what we have to do is our culture has to change. This is a paradigm shift. I really believe that this is a monumental moment that if we use it, our media power and our society, we can actually make great change.
EVANS: Awareness can bring this to an end.
PINSKY: I hope so. That`s why we`re spending this time talking about it. I also hope the Penn State students help lead us out of this. They have an opportunity as well.
Next, what in the world did the parents miss? What are the warning signs? Can you see, should we call it, evil? It`s not really evil, because it could look like a good guy, after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point, he came to you and he said he wanted some information about how to look up sex weirdoes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you think of that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I asked him who he was looking up. And, he said he wanted to see if Jerry was on there, and I said, well, why would you look him up? And he said, I don`t know, he`s a weirdo.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was a mother whose son was allegedly raped by the accused pedophile, Jerry Sandusky. She spoke about it on ABC`s "Good Morning America," which brings us to a last question I want each of you to respond to is, we`ve sort of been talking around and around what a pedophile is, what they look like, who are they.
And my question is, and we talked about empowering young kids, we heard Ed smart talk about it earlier. And I really felt that he was talking about his own guilt about not really raising kids to understand this issue. Ultimately, aren`t we talking about teaching kids to trust their instincts? And how do we get them to do that? Heath, I`m going to start with you.
EVANS: Obviously, you speak freely at home. With our two daughters, I mean, people question how vocal we are with a seven and a four-year-old little girl, but ultimately, we feel like we instill those safety values in the home. Reinforce it.
PINSKY: Reinforce it. Show good boundaries. Reinforce speaking out. Michelle.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. Talk about what is really happening, what really could happen, and who can touch them, and who can`t.
PINSKY: What about people that say you`re going to freak your kids out.
EVANS: They`re wrong.
GOLLAND: They are absolutely wrong. They need to be empowered. And you know what, adults, we need to keep our voices loud.
PINSKY: Our instincts.
GOLLAND: Our instincts and we need to speak up as adults to protect children.
PINSKY: Agreed. Trent.
COPELAND: Give our kids voices. Allow them to have their authentic voice and allow them to feel like I can say whatever I want to say to mom and dad. Let them know that they`re empowered in a way that they can come to us, and they can be honest with us. Even if it sounds like it`s a little bit weird, they can tell us if that uncle touches them in an inappropriate way.
They can tell us if that teacher touches them, says something to them in an inappropriate way, offers something they`re not comfortable with. Empower the children. Let them know that it`s OK to come to us.
PINSKY: We are going to support them in all situations.
EVANS: Yes, and we`ll believe them.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys, for staying with me tonight. This is such an important issue. I know all of us feel very passionate about this. And I just got a couple words before we go out tonight. Now, let me say it again. People that are abused sometimes become the abusers. The chance that child victims become adult perpetrators, some people say as high as 50 percent.
So, there`s a real conundrum in all this. What are we doing right now to see that boys and girls who get abused or are violated in any way, whether it`s physical, sexual, emotional abuse, you need to must make sure they get help. First, we need to know that something has happened. So, kids, difficult as it is, you`ve heard this panel, we got to get them to speak up. We got to listen to children.
And by the way, if you, yourself, have been a victim of any kind of abuse, it`s going to be really hard for you to hear the kids, to think that something that was so painful for you is going on in your kids, it`s shattering. Hear it. OK? Kids, open up to an adult you trust. Whatever happened, not your fault.
And by the way, even as an adult, as you get older, you still feel like it`s something that you did, that something flawed in you that caused this thing. No. You can always get help. You can be helped no matter what age you are or when this happened. Please, we must stop the cycle. It becomes transgenerational.
It`s something that will affect your kids and their kids. Abuse of any kind, report it to authorities. This is true for all of us. If you learn nothing else tonight, airlift yourself to the authorities there. They`re to help you, not to punish.
Thank you all for listening and watching. I`ll see you next time.