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Interview With Mickey Rourke; Interview With Heidi Klum

Aired November 19, 2011 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Tonight, the most dangerous man in Hollywood, Mickey Rourke.


MICKEY ROURKE, ACTOR: The director was a turd, and the material was not good.

MORGAN: Say what you really think.

ROURKE: That was it. Yes.

MORGAN: Get off the fence.


MORGAN: His life on the edge.


ROURKE: I could blow it all in a heart beat.


MORGAN: And tonight, for the first time, he fires back at his ex-wife Carre Otis and the explosive charges in her new book.


ROURKE: It's probably like a little bit of sour grapes, you know, chasing the buck, and a delusional, kind of narcissistic, self- centered point of view.


MORGAN: Mickey Rourke, no holds barred.

And the original super model-turned-super mogul on her naughty past.


HEIDI KLUM, SUPER MODEL: What makes you think I was a nice little girl?

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Love at first sight with rock star husband Seal.


KLUM: Yes, we did find each other in a lobby in a hotel in New York City and it was kind of like two magnets like this.


MORGAN: And the surprising reason she became an American.


MORGAN: Specifically, apparently, so you can you vote for Barack Obama?

KLUM: I did.


MORGAN: What did you think about that now? My fascinating encounter with the beautiful and rather cheeky Heidi Klum.



MORGAN: Mickey Rourke has done more in his life than most men could ever dream of, in fact, even have nightmares about. He's a Hollywood leading man starred in, "Diner," "9 1/2 Weeks," "The Wrestler," and "Immortals." And he took a three-year break. In between those, he became a professional boxer.

Mickey Rourke, a man of many and varied unusual talents. He joins me now.

Mickey, how are you?

ROURKE: Five-year break.

MORGAN: A five-year break of boxing.

ROURKE: Yes. I'm really good.

MORGAN: I've always wondered, why would you -- in the middle of this dazzling film career -- want to go and get beaten around the head?

ROURKE: The acting wasn't something I was having fun doing anymore or liked doing. And, I just saw too much -- at that time, I saw too much gray and the politics and the mediocrity of it just wasn't something I respected at the time.

MORGAN: You've always loved boxing, haven't you?

ROURKE: Yes. I started out fighting before I was acting, actually, then got hurt and got into the acting. But I had just done a film -- I had just -- I think I had done "Angel Heart." It was a tough film, but it had integrity and a really great director and actors in it. And then, I waited I think about a year or two or something like that for something that I could respect to do again and nothing came around.

And I bought a big house, you know, that whole number. And I had a big car and all that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and a big entourage that was useless.


ROURKE: And the next thing I know is just the accountant's screaming at me, you have to go to work. So, I took this piece of crap that I hated, Harley-Davidson, the Marlboro Man. I mean, I hated every second of it.

I like Don Johnson was in it. I mean, he was fantastic, but you know, the director was a turd, and the material was not good.


ROURKE: Then I just hated it. I said, I can't do this any more, because I wasn't particularly behaving the right way and I wasn't being very professional, very responsible. I was unaccountable. I wasn't -- I wasn't doing -- there were no consequences, no rules. And I thought before I just -- I had completely burnt all the bridges, but I thought maybe I didn't.

So, I thought, maybe, I should take a little hiatus so I don't ruin it all. It was already ruined, but --

MORGAN: How did it go, the boxing?

ROURKE: It went good. We had a dozen fights over five years. We had like nine wins and two draws and six knockouts. And we did good. And I've had Freddy Roach who was --

MORGAN: Fantastic character. Did you ever think you could have been a proper contestant?

ROURKE: I never say could have, would have, should have. You know, I accomplished what I needed to accomplish going back at the age that I accomplish. That's about all I could accomplish if that makes sense to you.

MORGAN: But what does it give you, that feeling when you get into the ring?

ROURKE: You know what it was, I needed the discipline. I needed some sort of regimen in my life, and I didn't have any -- I didn't have that. I didn't know what to do with myself when I got up in the morning. I didn't know what to do in the afternoon. I was up all hours of the night. I needed -- I was burning the candle at both ends. I needed something to center me. The acting wasn't doing it. Staying on my motorcycle for years on end wasn't doing it. It was just time for me to park the bike and just -- I don't really like to use that word "reinvent" myself because I didn't look at it that way. I just needed to do something different.

MORGAN: The last time I interviewed you was actually for British television, and you just come to the end of "The Wrestler." And there's a little bit of buzz about it, but not much at the time, and you said to me, because I was asking what every interviewer asked you at the time, you know, whatever happened to Mickey Rourke. Why did they all go wrong?

And you looked at me and you said, I've just made the biggest movie of my career. This is going to be the one that brings me back.

And I wasn't sure to believe you. I didn't know. I hadn't seen it. But you had this absolute conviction that "The Wrestler" was going to be your comeback movie. And, boy, was it the comeback movie?

ROURKE: Well, you know, I did the movie at a time when I still wasn't very bankable. And I really couldn't -- I wasn't getting jobs that easily. I was starting to work again, but nobody was putting big dollars on my head, you know, to do something. And my agent called me and told me about this young filmmaker, this director who is -- I won't call you a son of a bitch.


ROURKE: He sent me a text today. I could see he's a real tough son of a bitch.


ROURKE: He wants me -- he wants everybody to think he's a walk in the park to work with, so he can attract the talent, but he's hard work. Very talented.

MORGAN: I imagine, you're quite hard work, too.


ROURKE: So, I don't piss him off. I mean, they come around like Darren every 30 years. I mean, he's the man. I mean, he's got a larger brain than most of us. He's very driven.

He's very -- he's like -- I told someone the other day, he's like a great football coach or trainer. He just keeps pulling more out of you. And --

MORGAN: Let's watch what he pulled out of you. Here's a clip from "the Wrestler".

ROURKE: You can watch it.


ROURKE: I'm the one who was supposed to take care of everything. I'm the one who was supposed to make everything OK for everybody. It just didn't work out like that. And I left.


MORGAN: You haven't watched a second of that, nor listened to it. Why?

ROURKE: No. Hear myself groveling like that. No, no.


ROURKE: I can look at myself when I shave every day. That's enough.

MORGAN: What do you look at yourself now? You had lots of surgical repairs after your boxing career. What do you see in your face now? What do you think?

ROURKE: Well, you know, the guy did a really great job with the nose. I mean, I can't breathe out of it still. He took the cartilage from back here, rebuilt everything. It's like I have days when I can smell, days that I can't smell.

I actually like the way the nose felt and looked before the six nose operations. So it's like -- you know, it's part of it all. It's -- you know, I can't feel it. It's numb.

But the hands bother me, because the hands shake a little. And they --

MORGAN: Is that from the fighting?

ROURKE: Well, you know, I always had trouble with wrapping my hands, because my hands would swell up. And they still swell all the time.

MORGAN: When your Hollywood career initially all went pear- shaped, because I think by your own admission, your behavior was pretty out of control --

ROURKE: Surely.

MORGAN: When you realized it had all gone --


MORGAN: -- what was being in Hollywood, living here like, in a place that was driven by the business?

ROURKE: Did you imagine?

MORGAN: I imagine it's hellish, isn't it? ROURKE: Can you imagine walking to work, not driving your -- whatever the hell it is out there, Aston Martin? It was like that. It's shameful. It's like -- it's OK if you never made it. I worked very hard to become --

MORGAN: -- one of the biggest movie stars in the world.

ROURKE: I worked very hard to become the best actor that I could be, and to honor that and to try to -- and to say every day, how can I be a better actor today than I was yesterday? And to take all of that over several years and throw it all away -- I know why I did it now. I mean, but I didn't know then.

MORGAN: Why do you think you did it?

ROURKE: Well, I did it because I had some issues when I was very young with authority and with physical --

MORGAN: You were abused by a family member that came into your family.

ROURKE: That kind of (EXPLETIVE DELETED), yes. And it was that kind of thing. And you don't -- instead of being all nervous and shaky and -- I got hard. And I made myself stronger. And I put on, as the doctor said, all this armor. And all of a sudden, years went by and this armor kept building on me.

And it became a weakness, because it was backfiring. I associated with the wrong people. And I was hanging out in the wrong places. And I was -- you know, I was out of control with any sort of responsibility for my actions or anything like that.

And so, all this -- everything that I cultivated, instead of feeling shame or insignificant, it just backfired. And all that armor became scary.

MORGAN: In the wilderness years, I mean, when you were walking, say, into a store in Hollywood, a grocery store or something, what was the reality of that?

ROURKE: It was terrible. You go in to the 7-Eleven to get a, you know, whatever you're going to buy in there, and, you know -- cigarettes, a condom, a candy bar, and you're in line with like eight people. There's always going to be some -- I was going to say (EXPLETIVE DELETED) -- who says, hey, aren't you so and so? Didn't you used to be? It was like --

MORGAN: You actually hear that line?

ROURKE: Oh, yes, didn't you used to be. And then they'll say, oh, I know who you are. You're -- and they say the wrong name and it's like (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

MORGAN: What was the worst name?

ROURKE: Huh? MORGAN: What was the worst name?

ROURKE: I'm not going to go there. In the old days, I would have said a few names.


ROURKE: But then you walk out of there and you walk down the street, and it's like you just -- it's that sinking feeling. I mean, it's like -- I've said it before, it's a town built on envy. And when you mess up, whether you're a producer, writer, comedian, whatever, they can't wait to go like this. That's just the nature of the beast. And --

MORGAN: Who were the guys, the other actors who really stuck by you?

ROURKE: Well, Stallone helped me out. Sean stuck by me.

MORGAN: Sean Penn.

ROURKE: Sean Penn. Even Sean and I had an altercation where we didn't talk for 10 years, you know? It was sad.

MORGAN: That I can imagine, because you're both fiery guys.

ROURKE: Right, right. So, finally one day, we just -- I remember I was out of work. And Sean gave me an afternoon's worth of work on a film he was doing with Jack Nicholson. I had some nice moments in the 12 seconds that I was on film. And just slowly over a 13-year period, they let me back in the door, pretty much.

MORGAN: I want to come back and just ask you, as delicately as I can, about comments from your ex-wife.

ROURKE: Sure. Whatever you want.




ROURKE: Further, further, further. I'll put it right on the spot. Right on the spot. There. Oh, that's nice.


MORGAN: Even now, you're loving every second of that, aren't you? Be honest.

ROURKE: Well --

MORGAN: -- going to work --

ROURKE: That was a while ago. But we worked together for the first time since then two days ago.

MORGAN: Did you really? Kim Basinger from "9 1/2 Weeks".


MORGAN: Tell me about that.

ROURKE: It was one of the producers, Mark Kenton, he called me and said, would you like to work a couple of days on something that Kim's going to be -- do a couple days and with a director from Nigeria, something called "Niger Delta." And I said -- he explained the character to me. I said, really, just two days. OK, I can handle that. I'm sure she can handle just two days, too.

So I think we did just --

MORGAN: Had you seen each other since?

ROURKE: Once. Once.

MORGAN: How extraordinary.


MORGAN: When you met up again this time, how did it go?

ROURKE: It's always nerve-racking. It's like I didn't -- I wasn't -- this was a long time ago and I wasn't -- I was a little wilder then, you know? And she -- I didn't understand her issues or where she was coming from, nor was I interested. It was just, you know --

MORGAN: So, when she first saw you again this time, was it affectionate? Or was it weary?

ROURKE: Well, the first time we saw each in over 20 years was last year or something. And it was -- yes, it was like -- yes, it was tearful.

MORGAN: I mean, you shared a lot, Mickey.


MORGAN: A lot of fruit went down.

ROURKE: Yes. They said that, yes. Yes. I can look at that now. And it's a very interesting sort of almost like another lifetime experience. You know, it happened so long ago, the -- that movie.

MORGAN: I mean, it was around that whole time --

ROURKE: Well, there's not a day -- there's not a day that I'm not out in a club or a bar walking down the street that some guy will come up to me, oh, man, I got laid because of you, or did you -- I said, no, I didn't, you know? So I hear about the movie all the -- I often wonder does she. MORGAN: Are you proud of it, from an acting point of view?

ROURKE: I have never been until in the last couple of years, kind of acknowledged it, you know? Because for some reason, it wasn't the kind of movie I thought I should actually do with my time.

MORGAN: A few years after that, you met up with Carrie Otis.


MORGAN: And she's written this memoir which is pretty explosive. Having said that, every time I've interviewed you in the past, you have openly said the relationship, the marriage was explosive.


MORGAN: What was your view of the book?

ROURKE: I don't have any desire to read it. To me, that's something that happened over 20 years ago. And you know, just from what I've heard about it and what have you, I think it's probably kind of like a little sour grapes, you know, chasing the buck and a delusional, kind of, narcissistic, self-centered point of view. OK?

Anyway, what's the next thing you want to talk about?

MORGAN: No, but I -- I mean, it's fascinating, because I have discussed this with you before.

ROURKE: Yes. Well, I'm just saying, if you're going to write a book, then, you know -- and you want to -- you want to influence or help people, you know, that are in a certain position -- a lot of people, there's things that -- you know what I'm talking about here -- that are taboo. And --

MORGAN: Despite everything --


MORGAN: -- would you still, if you're honest, say that she remains the great love of your life? Despite all the chaos --

ROURKE: Not -- I think it's -- as it was put to me, you are in love with the idea of who you wanted her to be, not who she really is. And I --

MORGAN: Do you think if you both hadn't been quite so messed up at the time --

ROURKE: Oh, of course. Oh, yes.

MORGAN: Do you ever wonder about that?

ROURKE: No, I don't have to wonder. That's a fact. If I didn't have the physical abuse and she didn't have the thing with her (EXPLETIVE DELETED) -- with her father, who the hell knows? You know what I'm saying?

But it's like I can't talk about what happened to me with my stepfather and happened to my brothers, because it's shameful and hurtful. And I just -- it's very -- I feel very small talking about it.

The way I've read about that kind of stuff is you pretend it never happens. So -- but if you want to write a God damn book and help people, talk about what the real problem is, not the bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED) that you want to be a spokesman for a disease you never had. You know?

You feel me?

MORGAN: I think I'm feeling you, Mickey.


MORGAN: Tell me about women now. Because you've become, since "The Wrestler" --

ROURKE: I know nothing about women. OK?

MORGAN: Have you learned anything about them? Are you attractive with women? Do you understand them better?

ROURKE: No, they're stronger than us. They -- when they close the door and it hits them in the ass, they're gone. You can get on your knees and your belly and grovel like a -- you know, like a little pig, they ain't coming back. But we couldn't live without them.

Hey, listen, it would be a really terrible place if it was just me, you and these camera guys, you know?

MORGAN: It would be a terrible place.

ROURKE: Well -- maybe not for him.

MORGAN: Are an easier guy to go out with, to date, to be with?

ROURKE: No, I'm -- to date, not necessarily, no. But the thing with me right now is, as time goes by, everything's not so sacred. It's not so important to get all upset about little things -- oh, I like that picture. My agent hated that outfit. And he said, you wonder why you lost the Academy Award.


MORGAN: Is it -- the Academy Award system, I would imagine that beneath all the sort of stuff that goes with Mickey Rourke and the stuff that sometimes you play up to -- that underneath it there's a very serious actor. Would you see affirmation from the Academy as an ongoing great thing for you? Is that the ultimate?

ROURKE: Listen, when I -- listen, just to get the second chance, they're letting me back in the door. I'm grateful to that. In any profession that you do, lots of professions, you don't even -- you know, you don't get a second chance again. Sports or what have you, it's over.

I'm in a profession where I get a second chance. I get to work hard, because change has been hard for me. And I am a certain kind of person. I've got to always watch myself.

I'm never going to be -- it's never going to be like everything's OK now. It's never going to be OK. So I can blow it all in five seconds.

MORGAN: Do you still feel that?

ROURKE: Oh, yes. I could blow it all in a heartbeat.

MORGAN: Do you still drink much?

ROURKE: It wasn't the drinking. Drinking was never my problem.

MORGAN: What was your problem?

ROURKE: My anger.

MORGAN: And does that still flare up?

ROURKE: Sure. Well, not -- I mean, I'm able to, because I work with someone to deal with repercussions and being a professional and taking responsibility and be -- being accountable if he said something to me now, right now, under his breath that was disrespectful, you know, I might think a few seconds before, or I might think --

MORGAN: You would still hit him.

ROURKE: I'll get him later, absolutely. But not right now -- I wouldn't charge under the table right now. You know?

MORGAN: Should I be feeling a little nervous here, Mickey?

ROURKE: I would do it in a diplomatic way, you know? No, I'm just saying that, you know, you have to plan things out. That didn't come out right, but you what I'm saying.

MORGAN: I need to take a break here just to calm things down here. I'm feeling a bit physically threatened.


MORGAN: When we come back -- now you're wound up. I want to talk about politics.

ROURKE: You better call Sean and Tim Robbins. They have something to say about that.



UNIDETIFIED MALE: Does he know of my rage? Does he know that I live only to see his blood at the end of my sword? Does he know he butchered my mother?

ROURKE: Now that he has seen your face, he knows.


MORGAN: From Mickey Rourke's new movie "Immortals," which is currently in theaters. Did you enjoy making "Immortals?"

ROURKE: I did. It was a short job for me. It was a -- the director -- I said, who is directing the movie. I thought it was -- you know, had a lot of integrity in it for the genre that it is.

And I looked at the director's reel. That's what blew me away, seeing the director. He had done these Nike commercials with all these masks with Derek Jeter and all these other athletes and football players, and used masks which he was using to experiment with this for this thing.

And I saw a lot of his other commercials. I thought this guy can really shoot. He knows all about the lighting and the technical stuff.

I said if I'm going to do this genre, then I would like do it with somebody that is going to keep the integrity to it and who is going to do something different.

MORGAN: We are talking of different and integrity. Your next movie project is fascinating.


MORGAN: "A Beautiful Game." You're going to be playing Gareth Thomas, who is a Welsh rugby player who came out as gay, and was, in fact, the first really famous player in any sport in the world who was still playing who came out. And for him to do what he did was an astonishing act of courage, because it could have gone any way.

As it turned out, he got enveloped in huge support. But it wasn't easy for him.

ROURKE: No. That's what attracted me to Gareth. I was in London and I was in a pub. And some how, I ended up arm wrestling with these rugby players. We became friends. They play for the Huntersfield Giants. And they gave me a magazine article about their football team.

And inside you was an article about Gareth Thomas, legendary Welsh captain player, who had come out -- who had come out, announced that he is gay in that particular sport, OK? I thought, I would love to do that movie. Look at what this guy's got on his plate, you know?

MORGAN: He came out to your premier last week? ROURKE: Yes, he did. We flew him out. Let me just say, he went full circle. From him coming out, he was married for six years.


ROURKE: He had to tell his wife. He had to tell his parents. He had to tell his coach. He had to tell his teammates. He had to tell his fans, hometown fans.

And then he had the whole thing of going to away games when Wales or who he was playing, who he was playing with, played -- you know, the opposing team, they were brutal with the -- you know, what they would say to him in the stands and have you.

And the fact that this guy played this particular hard sport, maybe the hardest sport, no pads, anything, at this level, at the level that he played it at, with all that was on his plate, and this secret that he had to keep from his wife --

MORGAN: It's an amazing story.

ROURKE: When I sat there I said, you know what, I thought I had a lot on my plate. This guy's plate was pretty full.

MORGAN: We're talking of plates that are full -- Barack Obama has a pretty full plate at the moment. You were a Bush fan last time I spoke to you.

ROURKE: Who told you?

MORGAN: You told me.

ROURKE: Oh. OK. Fair enough.

MORGAN: What do you make of President Obama? What do you make of what's happening with your country right now?

ROURKE: I have -- I like the way you say with your country.

MORGAN: It is your country. I wouldn't deign to claim it as mine.


MORGAN: It has been very good to me, but it's not my country.

ROURKE: Yes, nobody ever put it like that to me before. I'm just -- it just sounded -- I'm not involved at the moment with all that.

MORGAN: What is your overview? What is going wrong with America?

ROURKE: I don't really have one, to be honest with you. I don't have -- I was all caught up in the whole thing with the 9/11 and the stuff with -- following bin Laden and the other Hussein and this guy and another guy that went -- the guy in Iran. It's not -- I'm not -- to be honest, I'm not qualified to give you an opinion, because I don't -- I'm not that well-informed about what's going on. And every time I try to --

MORGAN: Are you learning a bit of diplomatic tact in your old age, Mickey?

ROURKE: Yes, I am.

Yes. No. I don't want the -- you know, guys who have the different view on politics or things that I have to challenge me on that stuff. I'm not that patient to listen to them.

MORGAN: Do you think actors should spout off about politics?

ROURKE: I'll let you read my mind.


MORGAN: What -- professionally, we know what you're doing. It couldn't be going better for you. Personally, what are the ambitions? There's a wild rumor you got engaged recently?

ROURKE: No, I didn't get engaged.

MORGAN: Are you with anyone in any sort of serious way?

ROURKE: None of your business, Piers.

MORGAN: I know, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

ROURKE: Mind your own business, man.

MORGA: I can ask. You can reserve the right to fill me in.

ROURKE: I will take the fifth.

MORGAN: Are you happy?

ROURKE: You know what it is? As time goes by and you're getting older and stuff like that -- getting older sucks. You know, I hear all this crap about, oh, you can age with dignity. Really? That means like you're aging gracefully or something?

No, you're dying, man. You look like you -- everything is dropping, falling. In the beginning, it's hard -- harder, faster, stronger. Then it's softer, slower, older. I never heard somebody say give it to me, baby, older, slower, softer. Give it to me harder, stronger, faster, right?

So it is like -- it's a process of I'm not -- I'm not accepting it, you know, laying down or standing up. It's like there's nothing I can do about it. And it's like -- I mean, you look in the mirror and it is like, hmm, it is all going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

MORGAN: Speak for yourself, Mickey.

ROURKE: I'm sure you look and say that too

MORGAN: I was thinking how incredibly smart you're looking tonight.

ROURKE: Yes, well.

MORGAN: Mickey, it's been a pleasure as always. Good luck with the movie. And I hope you come back and talk about the Welsh movie, because I've got a real interest in that.

ROURKE: Yes, it will be better than "The Wrestler."

MORGAN: I look forward to that. Thanks, Mickey Rourke.

ROURKE: Thank you.


MORGAN: She has one of the most recognizable faces in the world. It would be hard to find many people who haven't heard of or at least seen Heidi Klum. She's a model turned mogul, a TV superstar, a mother of four, and she's my guest, and she has made me de-robe for this interview.

KLUM: Yes. And you look good.

MORGAN: You're quite bossy, aren't you?

KLUM: I am.

MORGAN: Do you always get your own way?

KLUM: But you see, you did it.

MORGAN: I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. It might be career wrecking. I feel suddenly naked without the tie. I feel a bit like Simon Cowell sitting here.

KLUM: No, you look good.

MORGAN: Really?

KLUM: Yes.

MORGAN: That's good enough for me.

KLUM: But I like to be bossy. You're right. My husband says it all the time.

MORGAN: Seal's a big lad. I mean, you boss him around?

KLUM: He's big, but he's very gentle. And you need to have a bossy wife in the house to get things done.

MORGAN: Do you feel lucky to have met Seal?

KLUM: Of course. Very lucky.

MORGAN: Because it felt like the pair of you had been sort of searching for each other and then you collided, and you have this extraordinary life with hundreds of children and fabulously successful careers?

KLUM: Four. We have four.

MORGAN: Yes, you have four kids.

KLUM: It feels like 100 sometimes with the speed, the way they go. Yes, we did find each other, in a hotel lobby in New York City, and it was kind of like two magnets that went like this.

MORGAN: Was it really?

KLUM: Yes.

MORGAN: Talk me through -- I like this. Talk me through this moment. What were you both doing there?

KLUM: I was just visiting a friend. And we were sitting in the hotel lobby. And it was a mutual friend of ours. And my husband came into the hotel after he just went to the gym, and he was wearing hot little bicycle shorts. And he was very sweaty. And I was like, oh, hello.


MORGAN: You knew him, right?

KLUM: I hadn't met him before. But obviously I knew his music, yes.

MORGAN: So what happened then?

KLUM: Then we met each other again, but always with friends. We always saw each other again. We went to dinners. Or it was fashion week. We went to like a fashion event at night.

And then we went to another dinner. And then we were kind of sitting at this table with a lot of different people. And you know, our hands kind of met under the table by accident. And you know how normally when that would happen, you would just like do a jerk reaction and go the other way --

MORGAN: Well, it never happened to me. No, it doesn't happen --

KLUM: But then we didn't do that.

MORGAN: Do you want to go through it again (ph)?

KLUM: It went like this and normally we'd go and we just went like this. No one saw it. And we were just sitting there under the table holding hands.

MORGAN: And who gripped who?

KLUM: We both gripped each other.

MORGAN: And what were you thinking in that second?

KLUM: I got really hot.

MORGAN: Did you think this is the guy?

KLUM: I was like, oh, wow. Yes.

MORGAN: Had you kissed lots of frogs to get to this point?

KLUM: Yes.

MORGAN: And you were thinking I can't find the right guy? Like so many supermodels. There's no one out there who can deal with me, because supermodels are so scary.

KLUM: I'm not quite that difficult, even though maybe I'm a little bit bossy. But you know, in order to get things done, you do have to be a little bit bossy sometimes or tell people what you really want. Otherwise, things just don't get done, do they?

MORGAN: So you squeeze hands, and then you get married. How does he propose? I'd imagine it would be incredibly romantic with Seal.

KLUM: It was. I mean, it was probably one of the most amazing engagements. Like when I hear other people, how they got engaged. I mean, my husband, we were in a whistler, and he rented a helicopter. He had an igloo built on top of this mountain. And --

MORGAN: He had an igloo built on a mountain?

KLUM: Yes. He did, like a full on igloo with a bed inside, with pillows and blankets and candles and rose petals.

MORGNA: Oh, my God.

KLUM: It was full on.

MORGAN: And what were his exact words of proposal?

KLUM: "Do you want to marry me?"

MORGAN: What did you say?

KLUM: I said yes.

MORGAN: What an amazing story.

KLUM: Yes, it was beautiful. And then we went in the igloo. You know? MORGAN: And then what happened?

KLUM: And then nine months later Henry was born.


KLUM: Yes.


MORGAN: And how have you managed to sustain such a happy relationship? Because I've seen you together and you are incredibly happy together. In two businesses which are notorious for their lack of longevity in relationships.

KLUM: I just think because we love each other. We have fun with each other. We respect each other. I let him do his thing, even though that's hard for me sometimes, you know, because I'm like I'm not sure if I like that song. Are you sure? And then I'm like have to zip it up sometimes.

And you learn that -- the years that you are together, I learned how you have to like let him do his creative thing, because I am quite bossy in my industry, so sometimes I say too many things and I learned to kind of hold back.

So I let him do his thing. He lets me do my thing. And you know, we spend a lot of time together. And with four children, we're very family-oriented. We do a lot of things together.

MORGAN: How do you be a mother to four children with everything else you do?

KLUM: You know, I don't know how that happened. We always had one baby at a time. I know that sounds kind of weird. But we never thought, oh, we're going to have four children one day. You know, we had Leni and then we had Henry, and then we always looked around the table and we were like, we're still not complete. And then there came Johan. And then we thought, you know, we're still not complete. And it would be so nice to have one more girl. And we just -- then came Lou three years later.

MORGAN: Are there any more planned?

KLUM: No, that's it.

MORGAN: That's it.

KLUM: That's it. But it always kind of worked. I always juggled all the different things in my life. And I'm very creative. And I love doing more things than just modeling. That's how I kind of fell into all these different ventures because I love being creative. And it always worked with having children. And so I kind of juggled it all.

MORGAN: Let's take a look at the rather steamy video you made with your husband.

KLUM: Super steamy.


MORGAN: That was called "Secret." I mean--

KLUM: You should do that with your wife.

MORGAN: I wouldn't mind, actually. I wouldn't mind making a steamy video. I'm not sure there would be quite the same appeal to the wider public that there is with you and Seal taking your clothes off.

KLUM: Well, you can just do it for the two of you.


MORGAN: Do you like working with him?

KLUM: I do. I mean, he -- he was very shy. See, I'm used to rolling around with not much on, doing Victoria's Secret (INAUDIBLE)--

MORGAN: You don't seem very shy to me.

KLUM: I'm not, you know. And even today, if I go to a beach somewhere, I'm not all covered up. I'm -- I've always been very free. That's how I grew up with my parents.

And so for me, it was not hard being in a studio with cameramen and filming us. But my husband was quite shy. He kept -- he was like, OK, who really needs to be here? The cameraman? OK. Who really else needs to be here?


KLUM: Everyone else, out. Like he was -- he was quite shy about it.

MORGAN: I want to take a little break and come back and talk to you about how a nice little girl from a little place in Germany became this runway supermodel superstar.

How did this happen?

KLUM: What makes you think that I was a nice little girl?




KLUM: It is pathetic. It is kind of pathetic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. KLUM: How is this possible? How do you keep this skinny figure that you have?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't. I walk a lot. A lot. And I do a lot of stair climbing.



MORGAN: That's your hit show, "Project Runway."

Did you ever imagine when you started it there would be nine seasons?

KLUM: No way. No. You just don't when you get into something like that.

You know, when we first created "Project Runway," it was Harvey Weinstein, Desiree Gruber, my publicist for the last 15 years, and myself. And we just shopped it around. We went to all these different networks and tried to explain to them what we wanted to do was a show about fashion.

And everyone was like, well, why is that interesting?

Why would we want to watch how people make clothes?

But, you know, I love fashion and I'm in the industry for 18 years now, and I'm a -- because it's so cool how they come up with new things all the time.

And then -- and then finally, we did find a network and we were on the air. And then it was really a word of mouth, you know, because we weren't having a big budget, hair and makeup and stylists and this, that. They would do me in the morning and then they would leave me high and dry. I would be like shiny and messed up by the end of the day. No one cared.

And -- but then we -- it got bigger and bigger and bigger because people really --

MORGAN: Well, it's a hugely --

KLUM: -- really loved it.

MORGAN: -- successful show. I mean it -- people love it. It seems to me --

KLUM: Because it's really about talent. It's really about talent.


KLUM: And I think people admire those designers when they see what they can do. MORGAN: You're wearing, actually, a dress from this season --

KLUM: I am.

MORGAN: -- right?

KLUM: I am. This is a dress from Anya (ph).

MORGAN: Well, it's beautiful -- it's a beautiful dress.

KLUM: Yes. She's a great designer. And she just learned how to sew four months before she came on the show. And I really fought for her, because --

MORGAN: That is amazing, to design something that good with that little experience.

KLUM: Yes, no, because that just tells you -- you don't have to necessarily go to school and learn everything from, you know, from -- from scratch. If you are talented, you can really do anything. And if your heart is at the right place and you have the passion for it, you can go for it and do it.

MORGAN: Well, your heart began in the small town of Bergisch Gladbach in Germany.

KLUM: Um-hmm.

MORGAN: Did I pronounce that right?

KLUM: Yes. Bergisch Gladbach.

MORGAN: So, a young German girl and you -- were you dreaming of being a model?

Was that always the dream for you?

KLUM: No, not at all. I didn't even know that that was a job, to be honest. I wanted to be a fashion designer. I went to school and I went for 13 years, and after that, I would have given to Dusseldorf and I would have done the design school. And then I entered a competition. I literally, out of a fashion magazine, cut out a coupon with my girlfriend, sent some random photos in that she took of me, entered this competition. And it went on for six months. It was a model search, you know, Face 92, it was.

And then I won that by pure luck. It was like winning the lottery. And that's how I started.

MORGAN: And it was -- you went on to become this incredibly successful catwalk model, magazine cover star, everything, Victoria's Secret. I mean there was nothing you didn't do. You conquered the world of modeling, didn't you?

KLUM: A little bit.


MORGAN: Karl Lagerfeld said something supremely bitchy about your company years ago. He said: "Heidi is no runway model. She's simply too heavy and has too big a bust and she always -

KLUM: Well, that's probably true.

MORGAN: -- grins so stupidly."

KLUM: Which is probably true. I am --

MORGAN: That's one of the bitchiest things I've ever read and completely ridiculous.

KLUM: I am -- I mean, I am not a runway model. I never have been. And I never did all the big fashion shows.

I was always too heavy, too curvy. My boobs, at the time, before having four children, you know, it was -- I was too curvy. I wouldn't fit in the clothes. And I was too short and just not thin enough.

So that's true.

MORGAN: Not thin enough and too short?

KLUM: For this industry, yes, because the designers such as him, they require the girls to be a certain weight, height and size.

MORGAN: Yes, but I think he's talking absolute claptrap, old Karl. And, also, it's dangerous sort of nonsense that he's spouting, isn't it?

KLUM: I mean, I --

MORGAN: He's making young women think that they look at you and they should think that you're all these things. And it's ridiculous.

KLUM: I definitely agree with some of it. I did not want to starve myself and get ill and do all of these things that are expected, you know, for you to fit into that. And so, I just didn't. I thought I'm just going to find my own way, or I don't. If I don't, I go back to Germany and I do something else, you know?

MORGAN: I mean, there is a danger --

KLUM: I also like food too much.


KLUM: So that was a big problem. I was like --


MORGAN: I mean, I hate -- I hate the whole size zero thing. And most men I know hate it, too.

KLUM: But I don't --

MORGAN: They don't want a really skinny --

KLUM: -- even understand size zero. How is that possible? Zero to me, means nothing. So --


MORGAN: Well, it is --

KLUM: -- there.

MORGAN: But it's a kind of, you know, it's almost skeletal look that became so popular in the '90s.

KLUM: Right.

MORGAN: That the only way a woman should be portrayed in a magazine is to be ludicrously skinny.

KLUM: I think --

MORGAN: Which I just think is really dangerous.

KLUM: I think to be thin or too skinny, that's like two different things. I do like to be fit. You know, I feel better when I'm fit. Like I don't think I'm skinny, but I feel like I'm fit.

You know, I work out. I eat super healthy. Our children eat super healthy. And I just feel better that way than being, you know, a little bit overweight. But --

MORGAN: You also look relatively natural.

KLUM: Thanks.

MORGAN: Any -- any scalpel at any stage?


MORGAN: Would you ever?

KLUM: I mean, I don't want to say never. You know, I don't know. Who knows? Twenty years down the line. I don't think --

MORGAN: But you're even frowning.

KLUM: But right now -- I know. My mom says you can't do this because --

MORGAN: But that's -

KLUM: -- I do talk like that a lot. And what are you going to do?

(LAUGHTER) KLUM: I have that from my dad. He has a lot of those lines.

MORGAN: Yes, but I've had lots of models in here who can't frown. It's physically impossible.

KLUM: Yes, I just -- I can't face myself. I can't look in the mirror and look at fake things. I just can't. I'd rather age.

MORGAN: Let's have another little break and come back and talk to you about business.


MORGAN: Because you're not just a pretty face, are you?

You're quite a smart cookie.

KLUM: I like business. I like to create things and make things.

MORGAN: You like making money, don't you?

KLUM: That, too.


KLUM: Don't you?


MORGAN: Back with my guest, Heidi Klum.

Now, Heidi, you are a smart business lady, aren't you?

Where did you get that from?

KLUM: I don't know if I'm that smart at it. I try as good as I can, you know? And I have made some things happen.

MORGAN: What's been your most satisfying business success?

KLUM: Business success?

Putting "Project Runway" on the air is definitely one of them.

I host "Germany's Next Top Model" in Germany. And I help produce that show and I host that show and I love doing all of that.

I love all my different ventures in designing if it's for Amazon -- I have a line that I sell there. My QVC line for, you know, my jewelry that I -- that I just started bringing out there.

I design for Pea in the Pod and Motherhood for its maternity clothes, which I love. I do shoes with New Balance.

I do all the things that I love and I bring them out. And that is definitely something that I love. I love seeing people in my things and I love creating things and --

MORGAN: A few years ago, you became an American citizen.

KLUM: I have.

MORGAN: Specifically, apparently, so you could vote for Barack Obama.

KLUM: I did.

MORGAN: Is that true?

KLUM: That's true.

MORGAN: Why did you feel so --

KLUM: I --

MORGAN: -- keen to do that?

KLUM: I've been here since '94. I've been paying quite a few taxes in this city -- in this country. And I felt that it would be right for me to, you know, vote for the next president. And I really, I don't know, I liked him and I wanted him to win over the other person.

MORGAN: What do you think of America?

KLUM: I really like it. I think that people in America are very nice, when I think about people in Germany who can be quite harsh, you know, with everything. Just -- and in the beginning, it kind of bugged me, when I first got here, and people would always be like, how are you? And I'm like I'm good.

But they didn't really care, so why do you ask me that question?


KLUM: It's kind of this chitty chat and it's very -- they never really want to know really deep how you really feel or want to know too much about you. It's always very fluffy and stuff.

But that's not always bad, too, I found out afterwards.

MORGAN: Well, it's quite --

KLUM: If people --

MORGAN: -- it's quite polite, I think.

KLUM: It's polite, and I think, also, people are quite generous here. And they are happy for you when you're doing well. They say, good job. It's great what you're doing.

In Germany, I feel like sometimes it's the opposite. MORGAN: Well, Germany and Britain, I think, can be quite, both similar in this way, quite cynical places -- certainly if you are high profile and successful. A lot of people want to prick your balloons.

KLUM: Exactly. That's what I mean by that. You know, the Germans can be quite harsh and not be as happy for you than they are here in America.

MORGAN: But you're one of the most famous Germans ever, aren't you? You and Boris Becker. Well, there aren't many. There aren't many globally famous Germans.

KLUM: Maybe not.

MORGAN: Can you think of any? In the modern era, in the last sort of 30, 40 years?

KLUM: In Germany, definitely, yes. But not people that you would know here so much.


KLUM: Yes.

MORGAN: What's next for the Heidi Klum Incorporated machine?

KLUM: More designing. That's really my passion. I love to design. So I will be doing more of that. You will be hearing and seeing more things.

MORGAN: Really?

KLUM: From the things -- yes, that I cook up.

MORGAN: And no more children. You've done that.

KLUM: No, we have four children and we're complete now. Like I told you before, we always looked around the table, is there still someone missing? Yes, there's someone missing. Now there's no one missing anymore.


KLUM: It's mayhem 24-7. It really is, because they're all so young, you know, seven, five, four and two. It's -- there's a lot --

MORGAN: And if they wanted --

KLUM: -- that's happening.

MORGAN: -- to, any of them, to get into fashion, would you worry about it, given the experiences you've had?

KLUM: I would not push them. No. I wouldn't push my kids to do anything. I want them to be happy, healthy, and I want them to be who they want to be, you know? And I still have a few years to go on that. So, let's just see what they want to be.

MORGAN: What if they want to be --

KLUM: Now they should be kids.

MORGAN: -- a rock star like their dad?

KLUM: Yes. Henry could be. I mean, you definitely see the passion. You know, and Henry loves to dance and he loves to perform. They actually all love to perform. They give us tickets and then they put the chairs up, they put the music up and they start dancing and singing. And we all sit there and applaud and they -- they bow and they do all of that.


KLUM: They all have a little routine going on. Yes, we love it.

MORGAN: Well I -- I look forward to these kids growing up, actually, because they must -- they're going to look great and be very talented, aren't they?

KLUM: Oh, they're a lot of fun.

MORGAN: They have to.

KLUM: They're good kids.

MORGAN: Good genes.

KLUM: They drive me crazy sometimes, but they're good kids.

MORGAN: What's your proudest achievement, you personally?

KLUM: Oh, my family for sure. Yes. My husband, four children. That is, you know -- that is everything.

MORGAN: The most important thing.

KLUM: What are you going to do if you have all the money in the world and all the things that you wanted to achieve in your business and you have no one to share it with? You come home alone at the end of the day. And then what?

MORGAN: And you come home to a guy who just gets on bended knee in igloos and sings you crazy.

KLUM: Exactly.

MORGAN: What more could a woman want?

Heidi, it's been a pleasure. Or as I believe they say in Germany -- (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)


MORGAN: Wow. I couldn't-- wow, you love my eyes.

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.