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Penn State Child Sex Abuse Investigation; Pepper-Spraying: Right or Wrong
Aired November 21, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
The Penn State fallout persists. Now, the former head of the FBI is involved.
Then, nonviolent protesters are pepper sprayed at point blank range. Is that an outrage? We have to think about that.
And the Natalie Wood case is officially reopened. But why? I have a theory.
Plus, we`ve got a Baby Skye update.
Let`s get started.
More fallout tonight in the Penn State child sex abuse scandal. An alleged victim of former football coach Jerry Sandusky has reportedly left school due to relentless bullying by his peers. And a Penn State special committee has hired a former FBI director to lead an - so-called independent investigation into the child sex abuse charges against former coach Jerry Sandusky. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, head spinning new developments to the Penn State child rape scandal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the alleged victims, he said he had to drop out of school because he has been bullied and harassed.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He`s the boy known simply as victim one, the first to come forward this boy was three years ago. He started the landslide that brought down Sandusky, brought down Head Coach Joe Paterno, brought down Penn State president.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How was this victim outed?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just learned today that Penn State is bringing a former FBI top dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former FBI director Louis Freeh will conduct a thorough investigation.
LOUIS FREEH, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: We will conduct it fairly but also aggressively.
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No one will be above scrutiny in terms of where this investigation leads.
PINSKY: With me tonight, Peter Pellulo, whose organization, "Let Go, Let Peace Come In" helps survivors of child sex abuse. He is currently working with one or more of the alleged Sandusky victims. He`s author of the forthcoming book "Betrayal and the Beast." And HLN contributor Sara Ganim, the "Patriot News" journalist who broke the story of sex abuse allegations against Jerry Sandusky.
Sara, from a PR - Sara, from a PR standpoint, is an independent investigation in the school`s best interest in your opinion?
SARA GAMIN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, I think there`s so many investigations going on. We`ve - I counted five at this point. You`ve got an NCAA investigation. You`ve got an internal Penn State investigation. You`ve got the attorney general investigating and The Second Mile investigating. And, you know, I think that when all of these - they all have slightly different tracks. They all want to know slightly different things.
When they all come together, when the end of the investigation comes for all of them, I think the pieces that they each solve will fit together into a big picture for all of us. But until that happens, I mean, you know, these investigations and the tracks that they`re taking are just being laid out, like the former FBI director said, in the last 48 hours they just started talking about this.
So, you know, I think that we have to be patient about this. I think that there`s a difference between the Penn State internal investigation and the criminal investigation because the Penn State internal investigation can`t force people to talk, you know? So it is only people who are going to volunteer information, and that could be a stumbling block.
PINSKY: Now, the former FBI director Louis Freeh answered a few questions today about the independent investigation into the Sandusky allegations. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREEH: We will immediately report any evidence of criminality to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. If our investigation identifies any additional victims of sexual crimes against or exploitation of children, we will immediately report this to law enforcement authorities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sara, that is the first time I`ve heard somebody use language that I think is appropriate. The language of reporting to appropriate authorities, even when there`s a hint of impropriety. Why didn`t the administration take up that language from the beginning?
GAMIN: I don`t know, Dr. Drew. I can`t answer that question for you. But I - I was thinking the same thing when I was listening to that press conference, that when he said we are sorry, that was the first time we really heard those words come from anyone at Penn State. So that was - that was something that definitely caught my ear today.
PINSKY: The other thing is this is allegedly an independent investigation, but how is it independent if it has six Penn State trustees on it?
GANIM: Well, you know, that`s a question a lot of people have been asking and they`ve been getting a lot of scrutiny for that.
But like I say, there are so many different investigations happening, but I think that when - and they`re all going to take their own tracks, but I think that when they`re over we`re going to get a big picture by piecing all of those end results together. We`re going to get a big picture of what happened, and hopefully it will be the whole picture.
You know, I think the scope of this, I don`t even think we`ve begun to imagine that, because if you just take a look at the past two weeks and what every day, you know, we were learning something new, learning something that we couldn`t have imagined with more than the day before, so think what the next two weeks could be like.
Now, alleged victim number one has reportedly left high school due to harassment from classmates. Listen here as his mother tells CNN`s Anderson Cooper how upset Sandusky`s public denial had made him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was upset. He was very upset about this. He said - I didn`t watch it but I watched it when it was on and he watched it after that and he said - he cried. And I said, "Why are you crying?" And he said, "Because I`m afraid he might go free."
COOPER: He`s afraid that Sandusky might go free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Peter, I - that strikes my ear strangely. First of all, most of the victims at this stage often identify with the victimizer. Why do you think he got so upset about this?
PETER PELLULO, WORKING WITH ALLEGED SANDUSKY VICTIMS: Well, I think that`s true, Dr. Drew. What happens in the case of many of us that go through this - this life-altering event is that we take on, that we caused this problem. This young man is taking on that he thinks that he caused the downfall of Penn State football program, not only the downfall to the program, but probably he feels he cost Joe Paterno his job.
But at the end of the day, he is now getting re-assaulted by the bullying at school and being asked to leave the school - him leaving the school on his own, but this is a life-altering event. This young man has got to be one of the bravest young men I ever - I ever heard of or hope to meet very shortly because none of us ever tell.
I mean, for him to stand up and tell at the age of 15, he is a - he is a very courageous young man and he should be commended and could not be - could not be fooled -
PINSKY: I completely - Peter, I completely agree with you. But I have 10 seconds to ask you one last question. How did the other kids find out that he was victim number one? How is he getting bullied?
PELLULO: I have - I have no idea. And it`s - it`s just another shame that this young man has to go through this again. And as we help and we`re working with the others, with not only the young men in the Grand Jury, but also some of the other men that have come forward in their journey to recovery, I`m just - I`m just hoping that this young man will have that opportunity.
PINSKY: I completely agree with you. We have to take a break. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SOPHIA KAMRAN, ONE OF THE PROTESTERS SUBJECTED TO PEPPER SPRAYING (via telephone): After they sprayed us, we were being showered in the liquid, it got all over our bodies, our hands, all of our clothes are soaked and we were just burning. Even hours afterwards when we tried to remove our clothes and shower, it was like the first burn all over again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Pepper spray or not, that is the question of the night at U.C. Davis. Students supporting Occupy Wall Street movement were pepper sprayed by campus police on Friday after they had set up tents on school property. About 10 students locked arms on a sidewalk in a show of defiance as two officers then unleashed the pepper spray op the group.
The officers now have been put on administrative leave as well as the school`s police chief and that`s Spicuzza. Listen as she explains the officers` actions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF ANNETTE SPICUZZA, U.C. DAVID POLICE: I see pepper spray as a tool for - for officers to use, and like any other tool that we carry and we utilize, you hope and - and pray that it`s used correctly and within policy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: With me to talk about this, former police detective Steve Kardian, and on the phone, we have UC Davis student, David Buscho, who was in the crowd on Friday.
David, exactly what did you see what happens?
DAVID BUSCHO, UC DAVIS STUDENT (via telephone): Well, I was actually front and center among the students - both from the students that got pepper sprayed. So what I saw was very limited to before I got pepper sprayed.
We were sitting down on the sidewalk, peacefully locking arms. The police is moving around us. They were stepping over us and we didn`t interfere with the movement at all. And one of the policemen said if you don`t move, we`ll shoot you. So we put our heads down, there were two officers with paint ball guns they were pointing point blank range at our faces.
And the police officer that eventually sprayed us saw us put our head downs, so I`m sure that he said, "Don`t worry, I`ll just spray them." And then someone just started yelling pepper spray and I closed my eyes.
PINSKY: That`s you - we have a picture of you, I guess, right here just after the incident.
So I just want to make sure I understand what - what was all that went down here. You were illegally occupying school property, right? In the eyes of the school that you didn`t have the right to stay where you were, so the police felt they were going to move you no matter what, is that correct?
BUSCHO: In the eyes of the school, overnight camping is illegal.
PINSKY: OK. David, civil disobedience mean you had to be disobedient. So, OK, you were breaking a law and the police came in and they were going to move you no matter what. They threatened you and then they eventually as a kinder, gentler way put the pepper spray in? Is that correct?
BUSCHO: Well, let me be clear. They pepper sprayed us after they broke down the encampment, like more than a half hour after attempting (ph) encampment. We were - at that point, we were students that were sitting down in a circle chanting. So there was no encampment at that point. The police could have just left and their grievances with us would have been met.
PINSKY: Meaning what? I don`t know what that means. Meaning you would have disbanded?
BUSCHO: Yes. Meaning there were no longer any tents that we didn`t have any occupational facilities at that point.
PINSKY: Were you blocking traffic or anything that they had an issue with?
BUSCHO: We were sitting on a sidewalk and it was really a symbolic gesture, sitting in their way.
PINSKY: Got it.
BUSCHO: They were able to move through us and around us without issue.
PINSKY: OK. Got it. Got it.
Now, the U.C. Davis Chancellor said this, taking responsibility for the incident. Quote, " I spoke with students this weekend and I feel their outrage. I`m deeply saddened that this happened on our campus, and as chancellor, I take full responsibility for the incident. However, I pledge to take the actions needed to ensure that this does not happen again."
David, that sounds a little bit vague, like, she`s going to make sure you don`t occupy school property again could be one of those measures. Are students calling for the chancellor`s resignation?
BUSCHO: Yes, indeed, actually. In fact, I started a change.org petition - a petition on change.org calling for her immediate resignation. It was a very eloquent essay written by an English professor on this. And I urge anyone in the public who feel that she has failed to do her job to protect students to go online and just sign this petition.
In all honestly, I think that the necessary action to protect students in the future is for the chancellor that could be held accountable to the students and right now she cannot be. The vast majority of students are calling - students and faculty and staff are calling for her resignation and she`s still refusing.
Pinsky: Now, Steve, you were a former police detective. Let me go to you. Did these officers do the right thing in your opinion?
STEVE KARDIAN, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: Dr. Drew, we have an incident here where the police are outnumbered. We have an incident here where the students are being belligerent, they`re being challenging. And the lieutenant on the scene decided to employ the pepper spray and it was done for a reason, and that was actually to protect the students and the officers. If they had gone hands-on with those students at that time, they were going to be met with a much greater resistance.
While they appear to be passive, they were prepared to be aggressive when arrested. So by employing they pepper spray, they created a distraction which made them less violent. And if we look at the video again, we`ll see that the students even after they were pepper sprayed became resistant. It took two and sometimes three officers to take them into custody.
PINSKY: David, how do you respond to that?
BUSCHO: After we were pepper sprayed, me personally along with every single other person was paralyzed with fear. I was blinded. I could not breathe. I was suffocating. My face was covered in pepper spray. I had no idea who was grabbing me. I have no idea who was kicking me. There was a blanket thrown over my face. Every single student felt this way. You pepper sprayed us three times. After the first time, we were completely immobile.
KARDIAN: Steve, how do you respond - ?
BUSCHO: -- and all - every single students on Friday, on Saturday, today have been nonviolent. We reiterate our commitment to nonviolence every single day.
PINSKY: But Steve, let me go to Steve. Steve is sort of my legal expert here today. Nonviolence - people, this whole thing gets so muddled for me. Nonviolence doesn`t mean you`re not breaking the law. It means you`re breaking the law. You`re being civil disobedient which usually means breaking the law nonviolently. You`re obstructing something that the police have got to take action on. Is that basically what`s happening here?
KARDIAN: Law enforcement made a decision at some point to arrest those individuals after giving them numerous warnings. Now, they knew and they were warned they were going to be pepper sprayed and they actually hid - hid their heads down, which actually created a minimal - a minimal exposure likely to the spray.
Now, I`ve been pepper sprayed. I pepper sprayed every officer in my police department. It is inserted into the use of force continuum at a very low level, because once we establish that we`re going to go battle, that we`re going to have a resistive group or individual, it is then authorized to insert that into the use of force continuum and deploy the pepper spray, even before the actual violence occurs.
And we don`t know what intelligence the lieutenant had at that time. They were breaking the law, they were denying - or failing to yield to law enforcement`s directions, and they knew exactly what was going to occur.
Simple thing, common sense, get up off the sidewalk and go to a location that is acceptable to make your protest known.
PINSKY: David, you see why I`m confused. If you committing civil disobedience, you should expect that something`s going to happen. I`m a little confused that the students seem mystified that they got arrested or that the police took action. Isn`t that kind of what you expect in an action of civil disobedience albeit nonviolent?
BUSCHO: I think that there are numerous other ways that that police officer could have acted to get us to move. None of us expected them to act like that that quickly. None of us did. And he didn`t warn he was going to pepper spray us. He told us he was going to shoot us and then he appeared in front of us.
PINSKY: Were you arrested?
BUSCHO: No, I wasn`t arrested.
PINSKY: See - this whole thing - I`m confused. I`m confused what the justification is for civil disobedience. I`m a little confused about that, because - I guess you`re saying inadequate representation of electorate by the government, because you have to have civil disobedience, you have to have a government that`s unjust, and then when you commit an act of civil disobedience, you have to expect that something is going to happen, that`s what it is all about, right, David?
BUSCHO: Well, I don`t - does that justify their actions?
PINSKY: No. I`m not sure it does. But this whole thing seems very muddled to me on all fronts. And I - you know, I just - I wish there was greater clarity on both sides so I knew - I knew what - what position to take. It`s all very confusing and I - see, it`s hard for me to say a that a chancellor should be brought down because - because officers took, you know, I thought they would arrest you frankly. It`s all very confusing for me.
BUSCHO: Well, they arrested my friends next to me. They`ve arrested a number of them and they did not (INAUDIBLE) the pepper spray that was on our faces. Number one.
BUSCHO: Number two.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
BUSCHO: The chancellor - the reason why the chancellor needs to be brought down in my opinion is because she needs to be held accountable to the students and the faculty and the staff whose safety she had violated.
The chancellor (INAUDIBLE) elected by the regents (ph) of California, not by anyone else. She`s an unelected official who can order riot police on students, and we`re students that are not necessarily supporting the Occupy Wall Street movement. I, for one, I`m not necessarily in support of the Occupy Wall Street movement.
The reason why I occupied was in solidarity of my friends across these campuses who were victims of police brutality, and - and I also supported - I defended the public education.
BUSCHO: That`s why - that`s why I was there.
PINSKY: All right.
BUSCHO: To insure public education.
PINSKY: OK, I`m - I`m with you on insure public education, but it - it gets so confusing to understand what people are standing for, and I`m confused.
But "On Call" is next. Coming up, the Natalie Wood case, 30 years later. And Baby Sky, who`s disappearance is strangely similar to a "Law and Order" storyline. What`s up with that? Stick around, we`ll get into it.
PINSKY: We have covered all sorts of stories in the past weeks, and they prompted a series of different kinds of questions from you guys. Most of them revolve around the Penn State sex abuse scandal.
Tonight, I`m taking your comments and questions about whatever`s on your mind. So let`s begin with a Facebook post concerning, in fact, the recent sex abuse scandal.
Rick writes, "I think what Heath Evans said on your show the other night was so profound," he said, quote, "What is not resolved is reproduced," unquote. And, I must tell you guys, that is a - such a - a wise, wise statement that Heath made.
It`s something that a lot of people are not aware of, which is that experiences that we have in childhood that are terrorizing and unpleasant end up reproduced in our adult lives. So, that which is not resolved becomes reproduced, and that is absolutely the case.
Something to keep in mind when you have patterns in your life that don`t seem to be particularly productive, often it`s from unresolved trauma.
Let`s go to the phones. Aimee, South Carolina. Go ahead, Aimee.
AIMEE, MT. PLEASANT, NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Aimee.
AIMEE: I just want to know why it takes something like the Penn State scandal to bring light to an on-going epidemic of not believing in children.
I`m living through my own personal grief with the Florida courts. My eight-year-old daughter has been saying for two years that her biological father is touching her, but the judge that`s overseeing our case said publicly that he`d never known pedophilia to be life threatening, yet he still has a seat on the bench.
I think the pendulum needs to swing towards children and not freeing pedophiles.
PINSKY: I - I absolutely agree with you. I don`t understand how the judge could say something like that. I mean, these kinds of experiences are shattering and they effect - they leave scars, and they leave behind in its wake things that effect someone`s life, the entire - the entirety of their life, and actually gets transmitted to future generations.
So it`s almost worse than - than many other awful things that people do. So, I don`t - I`m sorry, I don`t understand how that judge could say something like that.
Tina writes, "You touched upon this before, but I`m wondering if it may be damaging to apply - imply that abuse victims may become offenders themselves?"
It`s not damaging. It`s something that we have to contend with, which is that if someone is an offender, there is an overwhelming probability that they were abused. In fact, I`ve never seen it where they weren`t abused themselves. And it`s just something to keep in mind, something we have to struggle with.
And I think the important thing is - the point I`m trying to make is if somebody has abused, get help early. That stuff, unresolved, can go to a bad place. It doesn`t have to. Get help, get this stuff worked through, and these things wouldn`t happen. That`s really the message here.
Jill writes, "I think you or one of your guests had mentioned that there`s a strong possibility that Jerry Sandusky is a sociopath. What defines this?" And I really can`t say that yet, but, fundamentally, a sociopath is someone that does not appreciate other people exist as an agent, that they have independent feelings of their own.
Janelle writes, "Is it possible that some victims in the Penn State scandal will never come forward because they have feelings of shame?" Absolutely. In fact, it is - takes tremendous courage for these people to come forward, and usually they suffer in silence. It`s a fact, it`s the rare kid that steps forward, and thank goodness we`ve had a few of those courageous kids in recent weeks step up.
Now, when we come back, the death of Natalie Wood, 30 years after the fact. Thirty years later. What does the cult of celebrity have to do with the renewed interest in the case, and, by the way, how the case was handled back then, 30 years ago?
We`re going to talk about that. We`re going to talk about new evidence after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Why are authorities looking into Natalie Wood`s death decades after the case was closed? No one seems to know, but some people close to the actress are pleased that questions they`ve had for over 30 years may finally be answered.
And later, Baby Sky is missing. His mom says she left him alone in the car and that he was gone when she came back. The case mirrors a story from "Law and Order Special Victims Unit" aired right before the child vanished. Two weeks into the search, police say they reached a dead end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Tonight, three decades ago, one of Hollywood`s biggest stars unexpectedly died. No one could believe the news Natalie Wood and the strange circumstances surrounding her death. It was sort of incomprehensible at the time. Now, there`s renewed speculation about the night in question. Watch this.
PINSKY (voice-over): Natalie Wood died 30 years ago, on November 29th, 1981. She was just 43 and a major movie star. "Miracle on 34th Street," "Rebel Without a Cost," "Splendor in the Grass," "Gypsy," and "West Side Story, were just a handful of her successes. Her death shocked the world.
She slipped and fell on the yacht owned by her husband, Robert Wagner, and accidentally drowned. That`s what we knew until now. The captain of the boat has come forward saying he lied to authorities about what happened that night. That Wagner and his guest, actor, Christopher Walken, had had a terrible fight over Natalie.
The Los Angeles sheriff`s department has reopened the case. They say Wagner is not a suspect.
PINSKY (on-camera): The implication that there, perhaps, was some kind of cover-up, and now, a new witness comes forward 30 years later. Joining me tonight, senior executive editor, radar online.com, Dylan Howard, correspondent "In Session" on truTV, Beth Karas, and the coast guard captain who actually found Natalie Wood`s body in the water, Roger Smith.
Roger, are you surprised that this is being revisited now 30 years later?
ROGER SMITH, COAST GUARD CAPTAIN WHO FOUND WOOD`S BODY: No, I was not surprised, because I was involved with the lady In New York that was writing a book, and she was always concerned about the Natalie Wood story, and she wanted to find out what really happened over at the island that night.
PINSKY: And you, I understand, you actually found her body. This is what I understand. You found her body and she was still -- I mean, she recently drowned as far as you were concerned. And is it right that you actually tried to put her in a hyperbaric chamber, and there were sort of barriers to trying to do things on her behalf? Is that what I`m hearing?
SMITH: No. After we recovered the body, after a search for her, we did -- I took her to what is called big fisherman`s cove, which is a marine science center for USC University, and that is where we took all our diving accident patients. You know, I took her there because I had her on board.
I didn`t want to run her back through the boating public and display her there because of the tragedy that just happened. So, I took her to the hyperbaric chamber and did my evaluation there with a deputy with me.
PINSKY: And what was your sense that night?
SMITH: My assessment was that night, I did not know how she got in the situation she got in. I just know that I felt that she must have fell in the water somehow, and I do not know how that was from a swim step of the Splendour, and being as she didn`t know how to swim, she must have put her hand on the side of the boat which has the safety lines on it, and the winds blows off the island at that time of evening, because it blows in a westerly direction.
So, it comes through what they call the isthmus and actually blows offshore. So, she apparently was holding on the rack (ph) as it was going out to sea.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting. Dylan, is this consistent with what you`re hearing?
DYLAN HOWARD, SR. EXEC. EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM: You know, it is, Dr. Drew. You read this page, this document here. This is a 17-page document that`s being tendered as part of a petition to the L.A. county sheriff`s department, and it includes Roger`s account of what took place that night.
Marilyn Wayne`s account who was 90 feet off and stay away from the Splendour and says that she heard screams. It really does poke holes in the investigation at the time.
PINSKY: What was it that the investigation reported that she went off the ship without anybody being aware? Nobody heard anything?
HOWARD: It said that there was a dinghy that was banging against the Splendour. She went out late at night and attempted to restrain the boat to stop it from making noises and fell overboard. That theory, though, that just seems really hard to believe when you read this 17-page document.
And Robert Wagner`s version of even seemingly has changed over time. He initially said that it was a splendid night on the Splendour, but indeed, it wasn`t. In fact, there were allegations that a wine bottle was smashed. There were allegations that Christopher Walken, the actor, was accused of wanting to sleep with Natalie Wood. He then retreated to his cabin, and then, the almighty of fights took place.
PINSKY: And that was -- now, let me -- I want to turn -- move me to the point where he talks about what Robert Wagner is saying now if you wouldn`t, because he has a statement out. I want to read it, because he appears to be cooperating.
Here it is. "The Wagner Family fully support the efforts of the L.A. county sheriff`s department and trust they will evaluate whether any new information relating to the death of Natalie Wood Wagner is valid, and that it comes from a credible source or source other than those simply trying to profit from the 30-year anniversary of her tragic death."
I want to go out to you, Beth Karas. Thirty years is a long time to be opening this stuff up. And Mr. Wagner seems to be cooperating fully. What do you think is going on here?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Well, this is a death investigation, and I don`t know if anything more will come of this, but there have been people over the years who have been suspicious over her death and feel it`s about time that the sheriff`s department took another look at it. So, it doesn`t come as a surprise to some people that they`re going to look again and maybe put it to rest once and for all.
But what if they do find that the boat captain lied then and is telling the truth now. What do you do with that? I don`t think they have a provable case, even if they felt they had at least criminally negligent homicide, something like that they could charge the people on the boat with or Robert Wagner.
It`s one thing to have probable cause to arrest someone. It`s quite another thing to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. And, the detectives will look to the ultimate end proof at trial. So, I mean, what can they do. Is there obstruction of justice charges? Maybe. But, I think that it will just satisfy people`s curiosity.
Maybe the coroner will change the manner of death from accident to undetermined, but I don`t know that much more will come out of this.
PINSKY: It`s sort of a morbid quality in all this. Now, you mention that ship`s captain, his name is Dennis Deverner or Davern. Here he is on NBC`s "Today" show talking about who he believes is responsible for Natalie Wood`s death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was he responsible for her death in some way?
DENNIS DAVERN, FORMER CAPTAIN OF THE SPLENDOUR: Well, like I said, I think we all made mistakes that night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Davern, that wasn`t my question. Was he responsible for her death? I`m not asking about your story.
DAVERN: Yes. I would say so, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dylan, that`s pretty intense, right?
HOWARD: It is.
PINSKY: That direct allegation.
HOWARD: But Beth raises some very valid points. On the night in question, Dennis Davern has admitted that he was drunk and that he was high, that had been using recreational drugs. So, his credibility, all of a sudden, in a criminal investigation is effectively zero. There is the allegation that he`s trying to profit from this book, but I don`t take too much credence in that given that this book was released two years ago.
There`s also the suggestion that, perhaps, the sheriff`s department is trying to deflect some negative publicity here in Los Angeles.
PINSKY: I heard that. There`s something about --
HOWARD: There`s an investigation under way at the moment into prison abuse, and they`re under enormous pressure. So, they`re suggesting that this is a convenient way to brush that issue under the carpet.
PINSKY: That`s the third time that`s been brought up. I wonder how valid that is.
HOWARD: But at the same time, when you do look at this and you read this document, Dr. Drew, I was gob smacked to read that all these issues were taking place. There were more holes in this investigation than a piece of Swiss cheese.
PINSKY: Do you think that back then celebrities were treated differently? I mean, now, there`s the O.J. effect. So, somebody is getting extra scrutiny.
HOWARD: In this particular instance, Robert Wagner and Christopher Walken were flown off Catalina Island, straight home. They weren`t asked questions, even though Natalie Wood`s body had more than two dozen bruises. They weren`t checked for that. There are serious questions here.
PINSKY: That was the pre O.J. world of celebrity.
PINSKY: Now, they get extra scrutiny. I am gob smacked and I`m very especially upset when Dylan is gob smacked.
PINSKY: Thank you to my panel. Thank you, Beth. Thank you, Roger. Of course, thank you, Dylan.
PINSKY: Tonight, inside the mysterious disappearance of two-year-old Sky Metawala. Let`s look at the strange behavior of the mother of the toddler, mind you, she is not a suspect. We might be able to learn, well, if we can figure out what`s going on in her head, perhaps, we can figure out what happened to Sky.
It`s been two weeks since the little boy vanished from his car seat. His mother, Julia, says she left her son sleeping alone in an unlocked car when she ran out of gas. Isn`t that against the law? Anybody want to check that for me? Why isn`t she a suspect? Why isn`t she arrested for that? She alleges when she came back, Sky was gone.
Police say the story doesn`t add up. They check, and her car did have gas. Her story, get this, is similar to an episode of "Law and Order SVU" which aired one day before Sky vanished. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You forgot your diapers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They stole my car. My son was in the backseat. Someone stole my baby. Someone stole my son!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This woman may have something to tell us, not the woman you just saw in that footage, but the woman you see in the picture here, but she refuses to take a polygraph test. Now, if we can figure out what`s going on with her, maybe there`s a chance of finding the boy.
Straight to my guests, Dr. John Sharp is a psychiatrist at __Harvard Medical School, and Pat Brown, a criminal profiler. Pat, do you have any sense of this case?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I think this woman is a lot more mentally disturbed than a lot of people think. She doesn`t only have this OCD, we`ve heard about, compulsive disorder, I think she`s got a pretty high level of narcissism going there as well. And here`s what really concerns me.
She recently has been on this website looking for a sugar daddy, which in another term would be called prostitution because she`s not trying to marry millionaire, she`s trying to get $5,000 a month to provide sexual services. And on that same site, she tells them that she has two children, something you should be not telling people about when you`re getting into prostitution.
And then, what`s really interesting is, you know, if you understand how some of these men work, they don`t really want a woman with two kids. I mean, that`s a lot of work. You know, she`s going to always have these two little children running around, and she may not have had the best response.
But let me tell you, if you just have one child, just a little girl, not that little boy, just the little girl, you got a better chance. And recently, she`s been posting a ton of pictures of this little girl all over the place, and that really concerns me that she might be selling a package deal, and that means to me --
PINSKY: Oh, my God. going to the math right away.
BROWN: Yes. Because, I mean, you don`t bring your little girl into this. You don`t put up hundreds and hundreds of pictures of just your little girl and not your little boy, unless, something really creepy is going on. And, I think those children, well, the one that`s left at the moment does not need to be in her custody.
PINSKY: So, this is another child sex abuse, maybe she herself had been sexually abused, and now, she` prostituting yourself. That`s your theory. Sky`s dad said that last spring, Julia would not leave the house and that she began, allegedly, having dreams about killing their children, telling him about a dream that she had where she had strangled Sky. Listen to this from Nancy Grace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SOLOMON METAWALA, MISSING BOY`S FATHER: She kept on saying that she wanted to kill herself. And she said it so much that Miley started to repeat, "I want to kill myself." And that`s when I go, you know what, whatever we`re doing right now is not enough, we have to go and do more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Dr. Sharp, here`s the deal. I`m hearing as we try to piece all of this together, a lot of her symptoms got worse after this child Sky was born over a year, I guess, two years ago, that there`s some of disturbed thinking, obsessive -- you know, compulsive -- obsessive compulsive behaviors and thinking, suicidal ideation, a lot of chaos in their life.
Is it possible that there`s a personality disorder and a postpartum either depression or psychosis going on here?
JOHN SHARP, PSYCHIATRIST: Oh, absolutely there is, Dr. Drew. You know, we like to go deep into human nature. And unfortunately, in this case, the only thing really consistent is the incoherence almost of the behaviors that we`re seeing. They`re kind of like smoke signals, though. We`re not getting a full picture, but we see fearfulness.
We see flirtation. We see maybe some kind of flaky behavior. We see a whole range and I worried that there could be something worse. You know, this could be external to her like PTSD. This could be internal. This could be consistent even with bipolar disorder. I think her judgment is off, and we don`t really know what is motivating that.
PINSKY: Yes. Dr. Sharp, the husband keeps calling her, saying bipolar and OCD. Those are the words that he keeps using in describing her. And again, the pregnancy may have -- apparently things got a lot worse after that pregnancy. So, this all kind of fits as that kind of a biological problem, doesn`t it?
SHARP: Absolutely. You know, very often, women after pregnancy are vulnerable to depression or exacerbations of their anxiety.
You know, we just don`t know, though, whether she`s kind of internally falling apart or whether this is all some kind of a determined ploy, kind of like Pat is suggesting, you know, or whether maybe she`s so afraid, maybe there is some threat upon her that`s driving her to be, you know, really this distracted and this kind of crazy appearing. We haven`t examined her. I can`t say for sure, but this is absolutely incoherent.
PINSKY: Right. Like you`re saying, it`s like a smoke screen. You can see sort of the femoral signs, but not the full evidence yet. Sky`s father and mother are in the midst of a bitter divorce. He claimed in court papers, as I mentioned, that she suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder, bipolar disorder, severe bouts of depression, suicidal ideation.
Now, he believes that Sky`s disappearance has something to do with the fact that he was granted more visitation rights. Dr. Sharp, I don`t see where child custody, even if she`s falling apart internally, I don`t see where a child custody battle pushes somebody towards murder, do you?
SHARP: No, absolutely not. You know, he is suggesting that there`s some kind of secondary gain, right? And we would suspect I would suggest that there`s some kind of primary problem, something that lies deeper than that underneath. I don`t think this is coherent. I don`t think this is rational and planned out.
SHARP: She`s not even speaking to the public, to the police or to the press. She`s giving these little smoke signals. It tells me something`s really wrong in her mind. I`m worried for her.
PINSKY: There you go. Sky`s father claimed his wife developed unusual bond with the daughter, as you heard him saying, that she was parading (ph) back, "I`m going to kill myself," because the mom had said it so many times. As Pat mentioned, Julia posted photos of her daughter all over the place, but none of Sky.
Pat, you know, do we have to develop a theory of sinister intent here or like Dr. Sharp and I are sort of agreeing that this just may just be a sick person?
BROWN: Well, it depends what we call sick. I tend to lean towards the fact that she`s got a very severe narcissistic personality disorder. And having that, she may also be Munchausen Syndrome or Munchausen Syndrome by proxy. In other words, she gets her thrills out of being a victim and victimizing her children so she gets that kind of attention.
And these kind of people, when they don`t get enough attention, they get very frustrated. It`s like, oh, wait a minute, I`m the victim here, I should get more attention. And then, they go ballistic. They will stalk. They will lie. They will do all kinds of what seems crazy, but they`re just seeking more and more and more attention.
And I think that`s why we see her now going on these websites, and while her child is missing, she is busy on the internet looking up, you know, her new sugar daddy, so she doesn`t have much empathy or connection with her children other than as tools and useful objects for her to get her thrills out of. And I don`t think she`s crazy. I think she`s got a severe personality disorder.
PINSKY: Yes. And in the days of Casey Anthony, we`ve kind of become accustomed to that sort of behavior. I understand it. We become to embrace it, not embrace it, understand it.
Coming up, is Sky`s mother unstable? Does she have mental illness or is she telling the truth? Or, has something like this happened before? We`re going to tell you about an incident that could shed light on this mystery up next.
PINSKY: Tonight, is a mother lying about her son`s disappearance or did he really vanish when she left him alone in a car seat? In December 2009, listen to this, both of missing two-year-old Sky Metawala, that`s about full parents, both of them, were charged with child endangerment when they left him in an SUV for 55 minutes while they shopped in target.
Police said the car was cold when they found him. He was only two months old at the time. Why isn`t she being put in jail this time for doing it a second time? This case was dismissed. Why isn`t she directly responsible for the kid`s disappearance, for that matter? That case was dismissed earlier this year after the parents completed a year of probation and 40 hours of community service and a ten-week parenting class.
Pat Brown, was 10-week parenting class has seemed to have done a ton, why isn`t she being held accountable for having left him as the proximate cause of his disappearance, number one. And number two, do you think she`s just lying?
BROWN: Oh, yes. I think she`s absolutely lying. One of the things she said which is kind of interesting I that, you know, people weren`t understanding her husband, that he was very devious, and you know, he could be stalking her and doing all kinds of things, maybe he took that kid.
And it`s kind of ridiculous because if she were that paranoid that he was doing such a thing, why would she leave her kid alone and to be gotten. So, that makes no sense. Here`s the reason I think, Dr. Drew, that they`re not arresting her at the moment, because she`s doing a lot of really interesting things while she`s not being arrested.
And they`re able to follow what her behaviors are to see, perhaps, where she`s been going, where she might have put Sky if she did something to him, and other behaviors like we`re seeing with the internet that led us into her character. And I think since they want to find that child, that is the most important thing right now.
PINSKY: That`s very interesting. Dr. Sharp, I`m going to go out to you and ask you to go to the map the way Pat did and speculate. I mean, she`s gone all the way, and you know, really painted a picture for us of somebody pretty nasty.
You know, we`ve been reporting all this week about the Penn State scandal and the consequences of sexual abuse, and certainly, throwing physical abuse and neglect into the same category. In less than a minute or in a minute, can you help the viewers understand how those kinds of experience can create this kind of person?
SHARP: I can. I can certainly try. One thing regarding what Pat is saying is that she may be right, and, I think we may be right that the mother here could have some kind about what we call axis 1 disorder, some kind of a major biological problem, because when you have a major biological problem, it makes your character problem worse.
So, we know this. So, maybe, she was a little bit narcissistic, a little bit vulnerable, a little sociopathic. I don`t know. Maybe some threshold, and maybe she`s way over the brink now because of some biological problem. So, that, really is my kind of armchair diagnosis from across the country. Regarding what you --
PINSKY: Go ahead. I agree, Dr. Sharp, but go ahead, finish up. We got about 40 seconds.
SHARP: Oh, well to answer your question, unfortunately, it`s part of human nature that if we`ve been mistreated sorely, if we`ve been abused, we try to make that passive victimization experience something that we have an active sense of. We try to get the upper hand.
This is a whole, long conversation, Dr. Drew, but a lot of times people who`ve been victimized become perpetrators of abuse, and better people are able to interfere with that. I`m not sure she was one of those better people.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Pat, Dr. Sharp, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you all for watching. I will see you next time.