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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
GOP Debate Fact Check; New Clashes in Egypt
Aired November 23, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: It's 10:00 p.m. here on the East Coast.
We begin with "Keeping Them Honest" with a fact check on some of the claims made during last night's GOP presidential debate right here on CNN. All eight Republican candidates took the stage last night in Washington just steps from the White House. Some of them strayed from the truth.
Let's start with Michele Bachmann's claim the CIA doesn't have the power to interrogate terrorists because she says of the ACLU's influence. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is one thing we know about Barack Obama. He has essentially handed over our interrogation of terrorists to the ACLU. He has outsourced it to them. Our CIA has no ability to have any form of interrogation for
(END VIDEO CLIP).
KING: The truth is, Congresswoman Bachmann, who is a member of the House Intelligence Committee, is wrong.
The CIA still interrogates terror suspects in the field. In fact, President Obama created the High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group, which includes the CIA and the FBI and the Defense Department. They deploy in teams to question terror suspects here in the United States and overseas.
Whether that policy is strong enough or not is a matter for debate. But what's clear is that Bachmann's comments are not accurate.
Let's turn now to Herman Cain and border insecurity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: An insecure border is a national security threat for the following reasons.
Number one, we know that terrorists have come into this country by way of Mexico.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: "Keeping Them Honest," The Houston Chronicle" reports there is no evidence, no evidence of terrorists entering the United States through Mexico. Back in March, the newspaper reported on an independent analysis at Vanderbilt University. It found a 67 percent increase in the number of arrests on the border from suspect nations. That was up from 2000 to 2009.
Yet a senior law enforcement official told "The Chronicle" none, not one of those suspects faced terror charges.
Sticking with border issues, a lot of people are talking about what former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said about illegal immigrants. He broke with his fellow candidates when he said he would support lighter restrictions for those who have lived in the United States for many years, saying he wouldn't deport them. Mitt Romney took issue with that. Yet, when pressed on how would he handle the estimated 11 million to 12 million illegal immigrants here in the United States, Romney really didn't have an answer. Watch this exchange he had with our own Wolf Blitzer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Certainly we have to secure the border. And we talk about people who have been here 25 years, that is the extreme exception...
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You would let them stay.
ROMNEY: ... not the rule.
BLITZER: You would let them stay?
ROMNEY: I'm not going to start drawing lines here about who gets to stay and who get to go. The principle is that we are not going to have an amnesty system that says that people who come here illegally get to stay for the rest of their life in this country legally.
The answer is we're going to have a system that gives people who come legally a card that identifies them as coming here legally. Employers are going to be expected to inspect that card, see if they're here legally. On that basis we're going to be able to bring you to this country.
The number of people that we need to power our industries, whether that's agriculture or high tech, we welcome people in here with visa programs. We have a whole series of legal programs. But the idea of focusing a Republican debate on amnesty and who we're going to give it to, is a huge mistake.
Secure our border, protect legal immigration, and return to a system that follows the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Governor Romney had a lot to say. But "Keeping Them Honest," you might notice he never answered if he would deport illegal immigrants.
And on a lighter note, there is also this snafu from Romney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: I'm Mitt Romney. And, yes, Wolf, that's also my first name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Actually, his first name is Willard. Mitt is his middle name. Slight snafu.
Let's get into the "Raw Politics" now, CNN senior political analyst David Gergen, CNN contributor Erick Erickson, who is editor in chief of the conservative RedState.com, and Cheri Jacobus, Republican strategist, columnist for "The Hill" and President of Capitol Strategies P.R.
David Gergen, on immigration, if you listen to Speaker Gingrich's answer there, he's taking a gamble. He's looking past the primaries and past Tea Party voters, and we expect Mitt Romney to focus on the general election and Barack Obama. A risk for Speaker Gingrich, no?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Certainly sounded like it.
And Erick will have a much better sense of just how much damage he may have done for himself by going soft, so to speak, on immigration, how much damage he may have done among conservatives, the conservative base, especially in places like Iowa.
But I think as a general proposition, John, that Newt Gingrich is trying to reintroduce himself to the American people. He's been out of the limelight for a long time. He was seen as a bomb thrower in his earlier days, effective, yes, but a bomb thrower. And I think he's trying to introduce himself as a person who has grown, become more mature, and perhaps more empathic with those who have had problems in the past.
After all, this is a man who is asking voters to forgive him for his own past failings. And, you know, it's not I think totally unnatural that he might be more forgiving of others who have had past failings of their own, such as people who are here illegally for 25 years.
KING: Erick, I will get your view in a second.
But, Cheri, we heard from the Iowa Congressman Steve King today, an important conservative, social conservative voice in his state. He said Gingrich's immigration comments last night at the debate raised concerns for him. He says if you listen to the speaker, in his view, what he describes is amnesty. Is that a problem in the state that votes first and votes in less than six weeks?
(CROSSTALK) CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think what Newt Gingrich was trying to do last night is eliminate that as somewhat of a problem.
And I think by him coming out and addressing it and being out front on it, not being on the defensive, being on the offensive, he was able to put it in his own words, rather than wait for those secret robo-calls that will come during the -- in Iowa that he can't defend himself against. I think that that was a strategy on his part that was smart, quite frankly. I don't think it was risky, and I don't think it was a mistake.
It's best it comes from him so he can have this debate, put it in his own words, rather than have one of the other candidates try and get in there and represent his -- or misrepresent his positions.
KING: Erick, you think smart?
ERICK ERICKSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I think it's a risk, particularly in a place like Iowa. But I think it's very smart.
Look, Newt's taking a gamble right now. There are only two people who can really take him on, on this issue are you right now in Iowa, Michele Bachmann and Mitt Romney. Michele Bachmann doesn't have the money and Mitt Romney's campaign says they're going to take him on, except Mitt Romney was saying virtually the same thing back in 2007.
And the Gingrich campaign immediately after the debate last night was already circulating the press clip from "Meet the Press" back in 2007.
KING: Back in 2007, Erick is referring to Governor Romney back then saying he would support a program that not only included legal status, but potentially he said he would support citizenship.
So there will be a question for Governor Romney on this one.
Let's stay on this point for a second, in the sense that, David Gergen, our viewers haven't seen Mitt Romney's new TV ad. He's the front-runner, he has been the front-runner all along. He's being challenged now by Speaker Gingrich. He launched his first TV ad this week and he has raised a lot of eyebrows. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am confident that we can steer ourselves out of this crisis.
Who has been in charge of the economy? We need a rescue plan for the middle class. We need to provide relief for homeowners. It's going to take a new direction. If we keep talking about the economy, we're going to lose, lose, lose.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: You hear that voice in the end. That's then Senator Obama, 2008. If we keep talking about the economy, we're going to lose. As we have reported, he's actually quoting a McCain aide. And there's part of the sentence they just lopped there. Here's how Governor Romney defended this ad today. It takes Senator Obama out of context.
Here's how Romney defends it in Iowa.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: The ad, before it went out, was sent out with press releases describing that what the president had said about John McCain was now going to be used to be said about him. So there was no hidden effort on the part of our campaign. It was instead to point out that what is sauce for the goose is now sauce for the gander.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Sauce for the gander.
David Gergen, they did in the press release say they were using that quote. But if you watch the ad, if you're just somebody watching home in your living room, you have no idea they are taking then Senator Obama, now President Obama out of context.
Risky for a guy who could find plenty of other Obama tape talking about the economy?
And the idea that people are going to read the press release is ridiculous. Look, Mitt Romney is clearly trying to prove, his campaign is trying to show he's going to take the fight to Obama, something Republicans have had -- a little worried about.
One of the reasons Newt Gingrich is doing well against Romney is he seems to be more of a brawler, someone who will take the fight. I think the Romney people are trying to disprove that, but having said that, as you point out, they have so much material to work with on the economy, why in the world would they want to resort to something that is at best misleading?
And for a man like Mitt Romney, who, yes, he has been back and forth on some issues, but he's generally seen as a man of integrity. Why would he allow his campaign, why would he himself come out and endorse it? I think he ought to just clear the air and restart and go after the material honestly. He's got a lot to work with.
KING: Erick, if you watched the debate last night and you watched this fascinating week, we have seen Newt Gingrich now catching up to Mitt Romney, even passing him in some national polls. He's ahead in a new Iowa poll out tonight.
If you're Mitt Romney, and you're looking around that stage last night, you have to be hoping, don't you, that you don't end up in a two-way or a three-way soon, that you want Perry, you want Bachmann, you want Herman Cain, you want Rick Santorum, you want them to survive Iowa and have a crowded field moving on, don't you?
ERICKSON: You do. In fact, Mitt Romney's campaign has thrown several lifelines to candidates. In one of the debates, the Bloomberg debate, where you can ask questions, he asked a softball to Michele Bachmann on what great things she would do for America.
He has said nice things about Herman Cain and defended Cain from attacks. He's trying to keep people in. There's a real problem, though, just from the CNN poll and other polls are starting to show this. As Newt Gingrich has now gone up beyond Mitt Romney, we're seeing something we haven't seen with other candidates. Mitt Romney is starting to go back down.
He has been very, very steady in the polling with other candidates bouncing around him. He's never gone down as someone else has risen. With Gingrich's rise, he is starting to go down in the polls. And that's got to worry the Romney campaign, that Gingrich is now ahead in Iowa and new polls have him out now vastly ahead in South Carolina and even places like Pennsylvania.
The race looks like it may be starting to find its non-Romney candidate. And if so, I don't think Mitt Romney is going to be the nominee.
KING: And if so, Cheri, can Gingrich take advantage of his surge, or has it come at a point where maybe he doesn't have the resources and infrastructure?
We do know, even as he went up in the polls this week, he won't be on the ballot for the Missouri primary, because his team missed a filing deadline. That's campaign 101. There are caucuses. The campaign says it will play in those. But have they missed some opportunities because of their -- the bad stretch, if you will?
JACOBUS: Well, the opportunities weren't there because he had the bad stretch and lost all that staff last summer, and people wrote him off for dead. We saw that with John McCain, by the way, in 2008.
But his strengths are the debates. That's why he is where he is. These debates matter. Last night's debate, I think, mattered more than the others. So I think that he's ahead now. I think Romney is probably going to recover his numbers, because he does have a better ground game. He does have the resources. He is organized.
So it's going to -- I think you're going to see these two as top tier for a while. But I don't think you're going to see Romney keep going down. I think he's got a chance to come back up, because as you said, he has the resources. He's got the organization, the ground game where Gingrich doesn't.
KING: If you look at the history books, David Gergen --
GERGEN: John -- KING: And you know the history, Newt Gingrich often, when he is at a peak, does something to hurt himself. Do you see a different Newt Gingrich this time around?
GERGEN: That to me is a fascinating question, John. I -- you know, we all knew him when he was in the limelight back in the '90s as speaker. And you know no one other than Newt Gingrich could have engineered that Republican takeover of the House. And much of what he achieved as speaker. But at the same time, as you recall, he made a lot of mistakes. And while he was strong, he also had a reputation for being a bomb- thrower, for being -- often erratic. And I think the big question now, is this the old Newt Gingrich we haven't quite seen come out yet or is there a new, more mature, Newt Gingrich.
Is there a new Newt in town? If there is a new Newt and people were convinced of that, I think Erick's right, he'll give Mitt Romney a run for his money. On the other hand, if people conclude he's a right-wing sort of erratic, bully kind of person, who is -- you know, who says really -- and can hurt himself, then I think his chances of getting there are quite slim.
KING: David Gergen, Erick Erickson, Cheri Jacobus, thanks so much for joining us.
And let us know what you think at home. We're on Facebook and Google+. Add us to your circles. Or you can follow me on Twitter, @JohnKingCNN.
Up next: new violent clashes in Egypt. Military police battling protests, tear gas and anger in the streets. A truce lasting just three hours today. The military says it wants peace. We're "Keeping Them Honest."
Also tonight, the latest on the Penn State sex abuse scandal. Jerry Sandusky's lawyer responds to new allegations reportedly coming from members of Sandusky's own family.
But, first, let's check in with Isha Sesay.
ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: John, amazing video from New Zealand where a helicopter crashed as a pilot was helping to set up a Christmas tree. Incredibly, the pilot survived this crash. That and much more when 360 continues.
KING: Another "Keeping Them Honest" report tonight. More violence in Egypt, rage spreading in the streets of Cairo and other cities despite claims by the ruling military to speed up the transfer of power to a new government.
The good news, there was a three-hour cease-fire today. The bad news, it didn't last.
Here's CNN's Ivan Watson in Egypt's capital.
IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is where the fighting has been raging now. Into the fifth day. This one road here with police not very far away, and these kids choking, puking. But refusing to go give their ground amid the constant tear gas that's coming over here. Eyewitnesses show that they're actually breaking the cease-fire sometimes that are arranged here, and just venting their fury. And there's another round of tear gas.
KING: Now Ivan talked with one of the protesters who says their anger all boils down to one thing. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: What do you want?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what we need is to be from the people. The freedom. We don't need any military control for these people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: "We don't need any military control," the gentleman said. But the military isn't giving up its grip just yet. And people are dying. The death toll from these latest clashes has risen to 35, according to state-run TV while a spokesman for Egypt's Health Ministry says more than 3,000 others have been injured.
No doubt, some of those injuries happened today. Look at what CNN's Ben Wedeman witnessed in Cairo earlier.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you can see, right in front of me, there's this one soldier who's put on his gas mask and it looks like an antiquated model there. they have all put on -- many of them have put on their gas masks, because of the gas that was fired by the Interior Ministry. This -- this really indicates to you that there is a stark division between the army, on the one hand, and the Interior Ministry on the other.
The army today put out a statement that they have not fired any tear gas at protesters which basically -- what they're saying is, we are not the Interior Ministry. So what you're saying now, these are army -- these are soldiers of the Egyptian army in front of me. And they have formed a line, yet another line -- now there are basically two lines separating them, separating them from the protesters on one side and the Interior Ministry force is on the other.
More rocks -- more rocks coming in. And you can see the soldiers themselves who don't have gas masks are starting to suffer from this gas, as I am, as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE) KING: Courageous reporting from Ben Wedeman in Cairo today. Ben will join us live in a just a moment. Here's another look, though, at that line Ben talked about, separating protesters and security forces.
On state-run TV, the government said religious clerics were going to form a human shield between the two sides. Well, CNN saw no sign of that. But the religious scholars were talking to protesters, trying to negotiate.
The violence started over the weekend and continues raising concerns and questions about Egypt's future, ahead of Monday's important parliamentary elections. Many people thought these days were over in Egypt, after the fall of Mubarak regime back in February. But here we are again.
Once again, protesters are being beaten. The man was hit with -- this man was hit with batons on Monday, not just one, but several batons. You can see it there in the hands of security forces. And then there's this.
Gunshots ringing out earlier this week as military and police forces go after protesters who are fighting back with rocks.
Joining us now live from Cairo, CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman, in Chicago, Anne-Marie Slaughter, the former director of Policy Planning for the U.S. State Department.
Ben, the collapse of the truth. What does it say about the uneasy relationship between the Egyptian army and the police?
WEDEMAN: The Egyptian army is really sort of trying to distance itself from the police. And this is because despite all of the unhappiness with the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces that runs Egypt, the soldiers, the ordinary soldiers in the street, still get respect. They're not attacked by the protesters, whereas the Ministry of the Interior and its forces are profoundly hated by Egyptians.
I have driven by the Interior Ministry, and the old days of Hosni Mubarak, and Egyptians would say, you go in that building, you may never come out again.
And what we're seeing is that a realization that this is a painted ministry. So, for instance, we heard from the grand mufti of the Republic of Egypt, Mohamed Ahmed el-Tayeb, saying -- actually calling on the Interior Ministry to stop shooting Egyptians. And that sort of statement from the most senior religious authority in the country at a -- what was a pillar of the Mubarak regime, represents -- just indicates how much has changed.
In the old days, he was considered a puppet of the regime. Now this -- the Grand Mufti is actually openly criticizing it -- John.
KING: And Ben, as evidence perhaps of the split, the army comes out with a statement today saying it fired no tear gas at the protesters. Is that true? WEDEMAN: Well, technically, it may be. We can't say with absolute certainty. But certainly most of the tear gas has been fired by the security forces, by the Interior Ministry forces. And not the military. The military, as we saw today, is trying to separate the two forces. It's almost as if the Interior Ministry is beyond the control of the military who have come in and pushed them apart. I mean, that's sort of odd, given that in theory the military and the police are working together for the security of the country. The military actually has to intercede between the people and the police. It's unheard of, in a sense.
KING: Anne-Marie, what, if anything, should the United States or the broader international community be doing right now?
ANNE-MARIE SLAUGHTER, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: The United States needs to be pushing for a national unity government, essentially for the military to cede power to a unity government that would bring lots of parties together and stop the violence.
Right now the principle sign of the United States that these protesters are seeing is that the tear gas canisters say, "made in the United States." That is not what we want in terms of our support for protesters who are demanding their rights and demanding what they fought for back in February, but haven't been given what they -- what they were promised.
KING: And as this plays out, we've learned the American students who've been detained in Egypt will be held for four more days. That's according to the Prosecutor's Office in Egypt.
I know you're out of government now, not briefed on the specifics. But in general on the situation, you have Americans detained which should be of concern anyway when it happens in the middle of such unrest. Does that make any more serious, more worrisome situation?
SLAUGHTER: Well, John, if I were the parents of these students, I obviously would be worried. But I think we have to recognize that our consulate has seen these students. We know who is holding them. They are being subject to legal process. So it is certainly worrisome, given the overall chaos. But the standard procedures are being followed. I think they'll be home pretty soon.
KING: Ben Wedeman, the parliamentary election scheduled on Monday. Explain to some in the United States who might not be following the ticktock of this every day how much is at stake.
WEDEMAN: Well, this is really going to determine the future course of Egypt. Apart from what we're seeing in Tahrir, it is an intensely watched campaign here in Egypt, because this may determine, for instance, if the Muslim Brotherhood will be able to gain a large share of the votes.
It was expected before these disturbances that the Brotherhood would get as much as 30 to 40 percent, which would really put them ahead of everybody else. Now, however, they have been roundly criticized for not actually supporting the demonstrators in Tahrir Square.
So many people believe they may take something of a beating if the elections take place on Monday, as was expected -- John. KING: And Anne-Marie, when you hear the Grand Mufti calling in saying stop the violence, reports of religious scholars trying to negotiate some kind of a truce or cease-fire, how important is the religious community in Egypt at this fragile moment?
SLAUGHTER: What's really striking is that the religious community is essentially siding with the protesters. They are saying, stop shooting Egyptians in the streets. So their role actually is legitimating the protesters and is, again, in some contrast to the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood is sitting out this protest, even though many younger members of the Muslim Brotherhood are in the streets.
So it's a very unusual role that, as -- that they were seen as the puppets of the regime. They're now effectively legitimating the protests and condemning the violence.
KING: Anne-Marie Slaughter, Ben Wedeman, thank you. Very important perspective tonight.
And still ahead here "Up close": a story we told you about several weeks ago, Amish men attacked, humiliated, their beards shaved -- tonight, seven men under arrest charged with hate crimes. We'll tell you why they allegedly did it.
And remember this horrific scene; the stage collapses before a Sugarland concert at the Indiana State Fair? Seven people were killed. We'll tell you who some of the survivors say should be held responsible -- when 360 returns.
KING: Ahead on 360, the Penn State child sex abuse scandal keeps growing. We'll have the very latest.
First, though, a look at some of the other stories making news tonight.
Isha Sesay has a "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.
SESAY: John, after 10 months of deadly uprising, Yemen's president has signed a deal to give up his power. Ali Abdullah Saleh will be allowed to keep the title of president for three months, but has to hand over executive powers to his vice president until elections are held. Saleh ruled Yemen for 33 years.
Moammar Gadhafi's son may be tried in Tripoli, rather than the International Criminal Court in The Hague. Saif al-Islam Gadhafi was captured last weekend. * SESAY: ... power to his vice president until elections are held. Saleh ruled Yemen for 33 years. Moammar Gadhafi's son may be tried in Tripoli, rather than the international criminal court in the Hague. Saif al-Islam Gadhafi was captured last weekend and indicted on charges of crimes against humanity. But international prosecutors say if the Libyans can prove they're able to try him there, they should have the right to do so.
Now, you remember we brought you these terrible pictures back in August. The stage collapsing at the Indiana State air before Sugarland was about to perform. Now, 44 survivors of that collapse and the families of four people who died are suing the band, concert producers and stage riggers. The suit says the band had the final say on whether or not to go on in the bad weather.
And take a look at this video from New Zealand. A helicopter being used to help set up a big Christmas tree. As you see there, it appears to clip a cable, and it plummets to the ground. The chopper was badly damaged but the pilot, Greg Gribble, was treated and released from hospital. The cause of the crash, well, that's under investigation.
And John, getting ready for the big day. This is a live look at a true New York City tradition. Crowds gather late into the night on the city's Upper West Side to watch the blowing up of big balloons for tomorrow's Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. Great scene there.
Are you ready for Thanksgiving, John?
KING: Looks like Spider-Man is taking a little nap there before the parade. I'm not quite sure how that works. I'll be ready. How about that? I'm not ready at the moment. But I'll be ready. How about you?
SESAY: I'm not cooking, so it's going to be a tremendous Thanksgiving. I'll be ready.
KING: Oh, cooking is the best part. Why don't these people want to cook?
SESAY: I'll be ready to eat!
KING: All right. That's a good thing to do. All right. Stand by, Isha. Let's go. Our "Beat 360" winners. It has a Thanksgiving connection. Our challenge to viewers, a chance to show up our staffers by coming up with a better caption for the photo we post on the blog every day.
Tonight's photo, here you go, a pre-Thanksgiving tradition at Casablanca, the White House. President Obama pardoning a turkey named Liberty today.
Our staff winner tonight is Sam. His caption? "Dad, can we over to Occupy later?"
(SOUND EFFECT: GROANING)
KING: Yes -- can we run that again? Our viewer winner. Our viewer winner is Bridget. Her caption? "Liberty may get the pardon, but those other turkeys on the super committee should get the axe."
(SOUND EFFECT: GROANING)
KING: Bridget, you get a drum roll. Your "Beat 360" T-shirt is on the way.
Still ahead here on "360," the new allegations in the child sex abuse scandal at Penn State. One of the most recent allegations comes from former coach Jerry Sandusky's own family. We'll have the latest.
And several men arrested on hate crime charges. We'll tell you who investigators say was behind humiliating alleged attacks on Amish men in Ohio.
KING: "Crime & Punishment" tonight, the child sex abuse scandal at Penn State University seems to get more shocking with every new report.
Today, word that one of the two latest alleged victims to come forward involves allegations from a member of Jerry Sandusky's own family. Sandusky's lawyer vehemently denies that his client had any inappropriate contact with any family members and that there's more to this story. National correspondent Jason Carroll joins me now with the latest.
Jason, you have -- you've been in contact with Jerry Sandusky's lawyer, Joe Amendola. What is he saying about these new -- the latest allegations?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, he says they're completely untrue. That's his point of view.
Again, let me just review here what we're talking about. These are two new alleged victims; both of them are minors. At least one of them is a member of Jerry Sandusky's own family. There are allegations of abuse reported to Children and Youth Services, reported after the attorney general released its 23-page grand jury report, which you know at this point has charged Jerry Sandusky with 40 counts of abuse.
His attorney, Joe Amendola, basically says that these are not victims. John, he says this is all about in-fighting going on inside Jerry Sandusky's own family.
He released a statement to me a little earlier this evening basically saying, quote, "The allegations are ridiculous and unfounded. Jerry has absolutely denied any inappropriate contact with his family members. It's important to keep in mind, these allegations were made after the attorney general filed charges against Jerry, even though the alleged incidents took place before the A.G.'s charges were, in fact, filed." His attorney also, John, telling me a little earlier that he had always feared that, because of all the publicity generated around this case, that all sorts of allegations would come forward, allegations like what we're seeing now -- John.
KING: And help with some important context, Jason. Are these new allegations different from the previous allegations?
CARROLL: Well, they are. They are different in that you're now seeing these allegations, very disturbing ones, coming from within Sandusky's own family.
What we've seen up until this point, all of the allegations that we've seen from alleged victims, have come from people who were not related to Jerry Sandusky. So that's first.
The other thing that we're seeing is these two new alleged victims, John, are much younger than the victims that we've seen so far, those outlined in the grand jury report.
Having said that, Jerry Sandusky's attorney responded to that, as well, saying, "Even if you buy into the attorney general's allegations against Jerry, which we vehemently dispute, and which we intend to vigorously defend against, these new allegations don't fit the profile presented by the A.Q. These new allegations appear to be the result of a very nasty divorce and custody battle."
Now, another thing we should point out, John, with all of these new allegations that we're seeing, we should note that they have to be validated by investigators before we can say that they are, in fact, victims. They are alleged victims until they are thoroughly investigated. And that investigation is complete -- John.
KING: Important reporting and important context. Jason Carroll, thanks.
"Digging Deeper" into this already complex case. With more allegations coming in, more alleged incidents being reported, this is shaping up to be a long and complicated prosecution.
Joining us live from San Francisco, long-time prosecutor, Paul Henderson.
Paul, two new allegations of child abuse raise the question of whether he should have been arrested sooner. There were people who came forward. There was the campus investigation that was botched. Why did it take police so long to arrest Jerry Sandusky?
PAUL HENDERSON, PROSECUTOR: Well, you know, it's an interesting legal issue in terms of what the criminal justice process is in Pennsylvania. It's very similar in most states. There's actually only two states that have this unusual permutation of their grand jury process.
So in Pennsylvania -- and the other state is Connecticut -- what a grand jury does is not an actual indictment. The grand jury does a full investigation, and then it makes a presentment when the prosecutors can then look at that information and then make a decision about how to move forward.
And that's the case that took place in this instance, as well. So it took a little bit of time. And now the defense attorney is actually saying that that's one of the factors that would indicate that his client is not guilty, because it took so much time in order for them to get an actual case being filed against him. I think right now we're looking at just a whole watershed. There are going to be more and more cases coming out of this incident. There are more alleged victims coming out, left and right, to testify and move forward that want to tell their part of the story.
I think it's not looking very good right now, and this is, I think, turning out to be one of the worst incidents in college football that is going to be a big stain for quite a long time.
KING: If that's the case, and it continues to grow, there are a lot of people a week ago who were saying how is this guy out on bail? Now you hear of victims who are young, not adult victims -- alleged victims, I should make clear -- who are younger. Could Jerry Sandusky -- should he not -- by prosecutors, should they not go to court and say this is a potential danger to the community?
HENDERSON: Well, he's already been released from a judge. And you know, one of the things that you have to keep in mind is, this is a community where this school and this organization has such a big imprint on the local prosecutors that are there, and the whole local society there. Everyone is not necessarily deferential to the school and the people associated with the school. But this is a well-known figure.
And so there are these issues and these questions that keep being raised by people, saying, is he getting preferential treatment? Is something different happening for him?
I think, though, if you break it down, there's going to be three different approaches in terms of what's going to happen. Because there's going to have a criminal liability. There's civil liability and then there's moral liability or implication. And at every level with this case so far, it just seems to keep on growing.
In terms of the criminal cases and the criminal charges, even though he has been released on bond, as new alleged victims come forward, you can bring and add that case back onto a calendar and bring it in front of a judge again, in order to put someone back into custody.
So the fact that he's out right now and there are new charges, potentially, and there are new victims potentially, does not mean that he will stay out of custody, or that he should stay out of custody, as more charges unfold and as we learn more and more information about what was happening in the past, and what the violations that are being alleged grow in that community.
KING: Paul Henderson, thanks. Appreciate your insight. HENDERSON: Sure.
KING: Still ahead, a Texas judge who was caught on videotape beating his daughter is suspended. The daughter described that beating to Anderson, you'll remember, just days after it went viral.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY ADAMS, VIDEOTAPED BEATING BY FATHER: The bruises were the worst I had ever had. I had had other lashings like that, but this one produced the most bruising. And the next day, it was all up and down my legs. And he'd also hit my arms when he couldn't get to my legs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Also ahead, a new development in another story we've been following. Police say they've caught the men behind a string of Amish beard cuttings. We'll have the very latest.
KING: Up close tonight, the feds close in on a case that has shaken an Amish community to its core. We first told you about this story earlier this month.
Several Amish men in Ohio have been the victims of an unusual form of violence. They've had their beards forcibly shaven and their hair cut off. In the Amish religion, men stop shaving once they marry, and their beards are considered sacred.
So when members of a breakaway Amish sect allegedly carried out a series of beard attacks, the victims and their families became afraid, as well as ashamed.
This morning, seven Amish men from an Ohio community were arrested on federal hate crime charges. Among them were the sect's leader, Samuel Mullet, along with three of his sons. Here's what the U.S. attorney said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are religiously motivated violent attacks. And we would implore people who are thinking about or considering doing anything like this to understand not only that it is wrong, not only that it is contrary to our most fundamental beliefs as Americans, but that the consequences for engaging in that kind of contact can be quite serious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Gary Tuchman has been reporting this story from the beginning and has more on just what led to today's arrests.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In rural eastern Ohio, the Amish have lived for generations in peace and solitude. But recently in the middle of the night, an Amish woman in this house, Arlene Miller, called 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Carroll County 911.
ARLENE MILLER, VICTIM: We have terrorists here. Somebody is terrorizing us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then her husband, Myron, took the phone.
MYRON MILLER, VICTIM: I opened my door and asked what they want. The one guy who reached in grabbed me by my beard and pulled me out.
TUCHMAN: Grabbed him by his beard and then cut it off. Myron Miller is one of at least five Amish men in Ohio who have been victims of bizarre beard-cutting attacks. That's right. Beard-cutting attacks.
Fred Abdalla is the sheriff in Jefferson County, Ohio.
FRED ABDALLA, SHERIFF, JEFFERSON COUNTY, OHIO: This is very degrading to an Amish man. One Amish man said he'd rather -- he'd rather die than have his beard cut off. That's how bad it is.
TUCHMAN: Myron Miller was attacked by five men. He escaped before his entire beard was cut. He talked, but like many Amish who don't like publicity, did not want to face the camera.
M. MILLER: It doesn't make sense to us, either. Why somebody would just want to start cutting beards, you know, terrorize people.
TUCHMAN: Myron Miller's wife did not want her face on camera at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There we go.
TUCHMAN (on camera): OK. That's my first time putting a horse on a buggy.
(voice-over) But she did offer to take me on a horse and buggy ride to talk about the fear in the community.
(on camera) Amish people aren't used to being scared. It's such a peaceful lifestyle, right?
A. MILLER: We never locked our doors before this happened. But now that this has happened, we have -- we are locking our doors.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): And this is who they say they're trying to keep out. These Amish men, who were arrested in connection with the beard-cutting case of Myron Miller. This was a court hearing for three of the five men arrested. But the sheriff says the men were ordered to do the beard cuttings by one particular man. ABDALLA: I have dealt with a lot of Amish. They're just beautiful people. But I can't compare Sam Mullet to the ones that I've met.
TUCHMAN: Sam Mullet is the bishop of a breakaway Amish sect that's in a deep rift with the mainstream Amish, who say he's dangerously manipulative over his flock.
But why the beard cutting? It's a profound insult to the Amish, and Mullet's followers have allegedly used it as a weapon to punish people who might have insulted them. Three of the men arrested are sons of Sam Mullet.
ABDALLA: He's a domineering individual. Nothing moves in that community without him saying it's OK. He calls all of the shots. They're literally scared to death of him.
And I've said that he is a cult leader over the years, because they will do anything he tells them to do. The one said they will die for their father. That's how severely he has them brainwashed.
TUCHMAN: So we went to the tiny down of Burkholt (ph), Ohio, in search of Sam Mullet, and we found him. He wasn't very pleased to see us.
(on camera) If the sheriff says you're a cult, what's your response to that?
SAM MULLET, IMPLICATED IN BEARD CUTTINGS: We're not a cult.
TUCHMAN: But did you -- have you ordered men to cut people's beards off?
MULLET: I did not order anything.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But Sam Mullet does not deny that his sons or the other men committed the beard attacks.
MULLET: They do what they think is right. Yes, I could have probably said, "You're not going to do this." And maybe they wouldn't have right then. But sooner or later, it would have happened anyway.
TUCHMAN (on camera): But why do you think these people had their beards cut off?
MULLET: We're getting in too deep. It's too long a story. It goes way back. I'm just not interested.
TUCHMAN: Do you think those people did something wrong?
MULLET: I'm telling you I'm not interested. Can you hear me?
TUCHMAN (voice-over): To Myron Miller's wife, Arlene, who later decided she would appear on camera, there's no doubt who's behind the attacks.
(on camera) Who do you believe is responsible for all this?
A. MILLER: Sam. Sam Mullet.
TUCHMAN: The Amish don't believe it's a commandment from God to drive in a horse and buggy and not drive a car. It's a way to keep themself separated from the outside world. For most mainstream Amish, when they need to go far away from where they live, they hire a non- Amish driver to take them, but most of the time, it's a horse and buggy.
(voice-over) In the beard-cutting attacks, authorities say the Amish perpetrators did indeed hire a man to drive a get-away car but say the man was not aware of the crimes.
(on camera) The FBI is now investigating the situation. What's your feeling about that?
MULLET: We're not guilty, so I have nothing to hide. If they want to come and check us out, we'd be glad to see them here.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): We're not sure how glad Mullet is now, though. It was the feds who placed him under arrest. Back then, he told us he was the righteous one.
MULLET: The people that are spreading lies around about us, and the way they're treating us by getting the sheriff, getting the law and everything, are asking for a big punishment from the man up above.
KING: Gary Tuchman joins me now from Atlanta. They allege, the authorities do, Gary, that Sam Mullet did some terrible things. What else do they say?
TUCHMAN: Yes. The FBI is saying it's not just the beard- cutting. What the FBI says is he was vicious and violent, that at times, when people crossed him, he would force them to stay in a chicken coop for days at a time.
And they also say in these legal papers that he had sexual relations with married women to, quote, "cleanse them of the devil." That sounds a lot like Warren Jeffs, the polygamous leader who's now in prison in Texas.
But either way, Mullet and six other people who were arrested, including three of his sons, are in jail right now without bond. They face the possibility of up to ten years in prison on these hate crime charges. But prosecutors say they reserve the right to increase the charges possibly increase them to federal kidnapping, which could mean the possibility of life in prison.
KING: Did you get the chance -- did you get the impression when you talked to him, even though he said he was innocent, that he was concerned about being arrested?
TUCHMAN: You know, he talked a tough game, but he was very concerned when I got there. I think he thought I was a cop. He backed away from me. He realized I wasn't a cop, he talked to me, but today the cops came. More than 40 came in the raid this morning.
KING: Gary Tuchman, fascinating reporting. Appreciate your being here tonight. Thank you.
Coming up, an update on the Texas judge who was seen on video brutally beating his daughter. The public outrage was enormous. Now that judge has been suspended. The very latest next.
Also ahead, a man convicted in the Connecticut home invasion that left a doctor injured and his wife and two daughters dead speaks for the first time at his sentencing. We'll tell you what he had to say.
SESAY: Hi, I'm Isha Sesay with a "360 News and Business Bulletin."
We have breaking news from Arizona, where a plane has crashed into the Superstition Mountains about 35 miles east of Phoenix and burst into flames. Government sources say it is not a commercial airplane. Search-and-rescue crews found a 24-inch tire on the mountain, which makes them think it's a twin-engine aircraft, but they can't get any closer due to the fire.
One of the two men convicted of murder in the Connecticut home invasion case spoke today for the first time in his trial. A jury is deciding whether Joshua Komisarjevsky should be executed for murder, rape, and arson in the deaths of Jennifer Hawke Petit and her two daughters. Dr. William Petit was the sole survivor of the 2007 attack.
Today Komisarjevsky objected to his lawyer's plan to try and spare his life by showing his 9-year-old daughter's videotaped testimony to the jury.
The Texas supreme court has suspended Judge William Adams, who made headlines after the recent release of a 2004 video of him beating his then-teenaged daughter. Now a warning: the video you're about to see is disturbing. Judge Adams is seen whipping his daughter with a belt. He agreed to the paid suspension but didn't admit any wrongdoing.
Two of the three major rating agencies will not cut the United States' credit rating, despite the congressional super committee's failure to agree on deficit cuts. S&P, which cut its rating on U.S. bonds to AA plus in August, says it will keep that rating in place. Moody's says it will keep its rating at a perfect AAA, while it's unclear how Fitch Ratings will react.
And some shoppers will go to extremes to get a bargain on Black Friday, the day after Thanksgiving. Joe Dallett of Wyoming is already first in line outside a Best Buy store, and to keep warm, well, he's wearing a Tigger costume.
That does it for this edition of 360. Thank you for watching. Have a happy Thanksgiving.