Return to Transcripts main page


Syracuse Basketball Coach Fired for Child Abuse

Aired November 28, 2011 - 19:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight public outrage in the shocking Syracuse child molestation case. Assistant basketball coach, accused pedophile Bernie Fine is canned as secretly-recorded audiotapes are released between his wife and one of his alleged victims, and the wife admits in graphic detail that she knew what was going on. Did she witness her husband sexually attacking a child and do nothing?

And there are even more lurid details of Laurie Fine`s alleged behavior. Did she have sex with one of her husband`s accusers?

And we`re going inside the world of pedophilia. I`ll talk to a convicted pedophile who did hard time. And to a woman who didn`t know her husband`s secret life, sexually abusing young boys.

And I`m talking your calls.

ISSUES starts now.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Syracuse University fired assistant men`s basketball coach Bernie Fine after new accusations that he sexually abused boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sex abuse allegations first lodged in 2005 have now led to the firing of an assistant men`s basketball coach at Syracuse University. Bern Bernie Fine is accused by two adult step-brothers of repeated molestation dating back to the 1980s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First, he`d start rubbing my leg and then he`d -- you know, he`d sit next to me and rub my leg and then just gradually put his hand down my pants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every single one we talked to would defend Coach Fine, and not a single one gave us even the slightest bit of an impression that these were true allegations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Fine, a revered and well-respected coach, who developed many talented basketball players here. He was terminated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got to the point of just get it over, get it done, you know, and over with.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, Syracuse University hit with another off- the-Richter-scale quake of allegations of child molestation by a coach. As another man comes forward to say he was sexually assaulted, the wife of the accused coach has come forward, and a secretly recorded telephone call has now surfaced, and it is a head-spinner.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live from New York City.

Syracuse University has now fired longtime assistant basketball coach Bernie Fine. Three men have now come forward, saying they were sexually abused by Coach Fine. And a stunning -- and I mean, stunning -- jaw- dropping phone call -- ESPN claims between it is between one of the alleged victims and Bernie Fine`s wife, Laurie -- seems to show that Laurie Fine knew about the molestation.

Alleged victim Bobby Davis made this tape and gave it to ESPN. In this clip, aired on ESPN, Bobby Davis, the accuser, describes in detail alleged abuse by Bernie Fine. Listen.


LAURIE FINE, WIFE OF BERNIE FINE: What did he want you to do? You can be honest with me.

BOBBY DAVIS, ALLEGED VICTIM: So, what do you think? What he always does.

FINE: What? He wants you to grab him? Or (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him?

DAVIS: No, he`s -- he`s trying to make me -- no, he`d try to make me grab him. I mean, he`s like -- but at first he would grab me and start, you know, touching me.

FINE: But you never had any oral sex with him?



DAVIS: He -- he -- I think he would want to, but...

FINE: Of course he would. Why wouldn`t he?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. We will play more from that phone conversation throughout this hour. It`s unbelievable.

Laurie`s nephew says that Fine admits it`s her voice on the tape, but she claims the tape was tampered with and edited together.

Bernie Fine maintains that "These allegations are patently false in every respect." Calls to Davis`s step-brother, Michael Lang and Laurie Fine are not returned. Bernie Fine`s lawyers are not commenting on these recordings.

I want to know what you think. Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877- 586-7297.

Straight out to Arnie Spanier, host of CBS Radio 105.3.

Arnie, last week you said something smelled rotten about these accusations. You doubted them. But now they that have the assistant coach`s wife on tape, seemingly admitting she knew about molestation, do you now believe accuser Bobby Davis?

ARNIE SPANIER, RADIO HOST: Yes, I do. I mean, now the facts come out. Now we get everything. I mean, shame on us that didn`t believe it.

First of all, shame on Jim Behar (ph) for putting the doubt in everybody`s mind that said, "I`ve known this guy for a long time, and that`s not going to happen." You know what? It did happen.

And look at that stinking wife of his, one of (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Makes me sick. She should be in the jail cell next to him. She knew exactly what was going on, Jane. That`s disgusting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve got more to play. And it -- it really is -- you know, it takes a lot to shock me. I`ve been in this business more years than I care to admit. Yet when this started playing last night, and I just flipped on the TV and caught it, and I went -- what? It was a head-turner. And I`m listening, and my jaw is literally dropping.

Here is, according to ESPN, Laurie Fine and Bobby Davis talking in graphic detail about what allegedly happened between Davis and Coach Fine. Listen.


FINE: He wants you to grab him? Or (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him?

DAVIS: No, he`s -- he`s trying to make me -- no, he`d try to make me grab him. I mean, he`s like -- but at first he would grab me and start, you know, touching me.

FINE: But you never had any oral sex with him?



DAVIS: He -- he -- I think he would want to, but...

FINE: Of course he would. Why wouldn`t he?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to Debbie Gaetano. This is a woman who is good friends with Bernie and Laurie Fine, known the couple for 40 years.

Debbie, first of all, I admire your courage in stepping forward to speak tonight with us. What is your reaction to your friend`s voice and what you obviously know she said on this phone call at this point? Debbie?




VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is your reaction to the audiotape of your friend Laurie Fine?

GAETANO: Yes. I can hear you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, listen. I`m going to ask one more time. Your reaction to the voice of your dear good friend -- and we`re going to ask you -- you know what? We`re going to ask you to turn your TV off and come back to us in a second, because your TV is making it impossible for you to hear.

I`m going to go out to another friend, a friend of Bernie Fine, Jason Belzer, and this is an exclusive interview.

Jason, what was your reaction to hearing Laurie, the wife of the coach who was accused of molestation, her voice on the tape? Seemingly knowing that something very wrong is going on?

JASON BELZER, FRIEND OF BERNIE FINE: You know, the first time I heard it, I can`t not say that I wasn`t shocked. When the news came out about a week ago that Bernie was being accused of sexual molestation, I couldn`t believe it. I`ve known Bernie for a long time. Bernie has a fantastic reputation around the coaching industry by his peers, by his players. He`s been in the business for four decades. And when you hear something like that and you hear a good friend of yours and someone that you admired and you looked up to, and you don`t believe it.

And when his wife came out and said those things, it`s shocking. I think that it adds a little bit more legitimacy to the claims. But again, you have to kind of sit back and you have to wait to see how things unfold. There`s obviously other things that are involved in this situation.

His wife seemed to have willingly told this to his accuser. So we don`t know what dynamics are in play. And I hope that none of this is true. And I hope that we will see how the process unfolds and let the legal system...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In this clip from ESPN, Bobby Davis, the accuser, talks about the coach, Bernie Fine, allegedly using money as collateral for sexual acts.


FINE: When he gave you the money, what does he want for that? He wants you to grab him or he wanted...

DAVIS: He wanted to do me. He wanted me to touch him, too. He tried to make me touch him a couple of times. He`d grab my hand, and then I`d pull away, and then he`d put me in your bed, and then, you know, put me down. And I`d try to go away, and he`d put his arm on top of my chest. He goes, "If you want this money, you`ll stay right here," you know.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go out to Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist. A lot of the people -- you heard Jason Belzer, a very upstanding man, lawyer, wants to do the right thing. He has no ulterior motive. They have a very hard time believing it.

There`s something called reaction formation. And you know about this as a psychiatrist, where somebody creates a smoke screen that is so 100 percent the opposite of what`s really happening, that it really is the perfect cover. So people who are too perfect, I`m always very scared of them, because when they`re too perfect, chances are in my book, they`re hiding a toxic secret. Your thoughts?

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I think there or two things. First of all, reaction formation is when you have a -- part of your nature that you don`t want to accept, you don`t want to believe, so you shove it down so far that in your mind it doesn`t really exist. And anyone who knows you well thinks that, oh, there`s no way this guy could be a pedophile because he`s such a fine, upstanding person. But as you said, that`s a front.

But I think that the other thing that`s very important here is that pedophiles don`t wave a flag to adults that says, "Hey, I`m abusing kids." Many, many times you can be very close to an individual and this is a secret you will never find out.

So I am not surprised that the people around him were saying, there`s no way. This is a fine, upstanding member of the community. Yet in reality, this was a secret that was there -- perhaps here, as per the allegations -- but in many, many pedophiles, this is common.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this next clip is so offensive to me. Here, according to ESPN, Laurie is telling Bobby, the accuser, that her husband, Bernie Fine, who Bobby has accused of molestation, needs male companionship.


FINE: You know what? Go to a place where there`s gay boys, find yourself a gay boy, you know, get your rocks off. Have it be over with.

DAVIS: Yes, but...

FINE: You know, he needs that male companionship that I can`t give him. Nor is he interested in me, and vice versa.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now to me, Mark Serrano, and you`re a survivors` advocate and a crisis expert, Laurie`s comments, that he should go out and find a gay boy reveal a huge ignorance. This is not about sexual orientation. This is about alleged pedophilia. And the vast majority of convicted pedophiles -- pedophiles live a heterosexual lifestyle.

Now, organizations like the Boy Scouts have fought for years to ban openly gay scoutmasters, but statistically, openly gay people are not the ones you need to worry about. Accused pedophiles Jerry Sandusky and now Bernie Fine have lived their entire lives as heterosexual married men to women. Fine, in fact, has three biological children. Your thoughts?

MARK SERRANO, SURVIVORS` ADVOCATE: Right, Jane. There`s nothing to do with sex here. The perpetrator is seeking control. This is not a sexual act. This is an act of aggression. It`s an act of control, a criminal act.

And I`ll tell you: you can really get a picture window into the trap that Bobby Davis was caught in, in the way in which Bernie Fine`s wife enabled his behavior. Look at the excuses she makes for this -- this serial sex offender.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Alleged. Alleged.

SERRANO: Thank goodness Bobby Davis kept the tape.

Alleged -- well, alleged abuser. Let me tell you something. I`ve never seen accusations of abuse where the FBI conducted a raid like they did at Bernie Fine`s house for nine hours on Friday where there wasn`t something substantive that the FBI was going after. And I think that`s active -- active claims of abuse where it crossed state lines with children.

And you know, it`s such a trap that Bernie Fine had his victims in, Bobby Davis, and thanks to Fine`s wife. And you`re right, it has nothing to do with sex.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, I disagree with you. I mean, it is a sexual act. These are sexual acts technically. I don`t think it has anything to do with sexual orientation. A pedophile is a pedophile.

SERRANO: It`s a crime against a child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You don`t tell a pedophile who goes after and sexually assaults a child, a female child, oh, he needs to just go out and find a nice girl. That`s not the answer to that problem.

SERRANO: It`s so offensive. Despicable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, I just want to say that this is alleged. And we are very happy to have Bernie Fine or his lawyers on at any time. We want to be fair. And that goes for Laurie Fine and her attorneys.

We`re taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. I want to know what you think about this. I really do. 1-877-586-7297.

Lies, alleged sexual molestation audiotapes. It would appear Syracuse University is just reeling over these unbelievable developments in the Bernie Fine investigation. We`re just getting started.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been friends for 50 years with Coach Fine. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE)




ZACH TOMASELLI, ACCUSES BERNIE FINE OF SEX ABUSE: I was in the hotel room, and he was -- he would put his hand down my shorts whenever I was sitting there watching TV.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that is accuser No. 3 in this child molestation sex scandal that is rocking Syracuse University.

I want to go to Debbie Gaetano, very good friends with Bernie and Laurie Fine.

Thank you for joining us, Debbie. Tell us about Laurie Fine. I mean, describe her as a person.

GAETANO: Laurie Fine, I`ve known, for -- oh, God, since she was 18 years old. She`s a good person. You know, all I know is Laurie and Bernie have -- you know, being with them for all these years, all their family affairs: their weddings, their bar mitzvahs, our kids` parties. I`ve never seen anything but good out of both of them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nothing. How about Bernie?

GAETANO: Bernie is a great guy. Bernie is a great guy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what do you mean by that?

GAETANO: He is just a real nice man that would give you the shirt off his back. He`s a great guy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, he`s a nice guy.



GAETANO: Well, I`ve known him for 40 years. I`ve never seen anything but good come out of him. I mean, our kids spent a lot of time there. There`s been nothing. Nothing different. Nothing fishy. Nothing. Nothing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Would you, Debbie, leave him alone with your kids?

GAETANO: I have. I have. Of course.


GAETANO: Of course.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, do you have any second thoughts about it in the wake of this?

GAETANO: No, I don`t. No, I don`t.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No second thoughts?

GAETANO: No second thoughts.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you don`t care what comes out? It doesn`t matter?

GAETANO: Well, I didn`t say that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. I don`t want to put words in your mouth. I`m just trying to get an idea of what -- how you feel.

GAETANO: No. This is what I`ve known for all these years, and I`ve never seen any other side of them but good.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Debbie, I want to thank you for coming on. And again, we want to be fair. That`s why we seek out people who have different perspectives. And we know that there`s various perspectives on the story, and every single one of them is equally passionate.

Want to go out to Mike Galanos. You are there in Syracuse right new. First of all, what is the mood in the wake of this head-spinning audiotape of Laurie Fine?

MIKE GALANOS, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Just shock. Disbelief, Jane. And you know, I had a chance to, you know, take in some -- what do people around Syracuse -- and they love their Syracuse basketball and all that. And there`s a father of a little boy who`s saying No. 1, we`ve got to find out what`s going on. This father was just shocked.

And in the wake of what`s going on at Penn State, you know, his question is, what is going on at these major institutions? These -- you know, we revered Penn State football. We revere Syracuse basketball. But what is going on? And that`s a question.

And you know, one other thing: to pick up on what the friend was just saying there about Bernie Fine -- and again these are just allegations. Nothing has been proven. But it`s just like Jerry Sandusky. I just left Penn State not long ago, and the same thing was being said about him. Never saw anything. Great guy, pillar of the community. And now we`re dealing with two scandals, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it`s unbelievable how their impression, for people who have known them for years, contrasts completely with what those who say that they have these experiences with them are describing. Almost like two different people. How does this something like happen?

OK, we`re going to hear it from an admitted pedophile next. A shocker you`ve got to hear to believe. Stay right there.



TOMASELLI: ... fondle me four to maybe even five times. And it would go in spurts between 10 and 15 minutes, and it would stop for a couple hours and then he would start all over again.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That is a accuser No. 3 who has just come forward. And here is another stunning part of the phone call between Laurie Fine, the wife of the assistant coach who is now accused of molestation, and Bobby Davis, the accuser, in which she reveals just how much she knew about her husband. Here it is from ESPN.


FINE: Right, right, he just has a nasty attitude because he didn`t get his money nor did he get what he wanted. He didn`t get...

DAVIS: It`s not about the money.

FINE: It`s about the (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I know that. So you`re -- I`m just telling you for your own good, you`re better off just staying away from him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now here`s a time line. This alleged molestation occurred in the `80s and the `90s. Bobby Davis says he was abused for 16 years.

In 2002 he goes to police. Also in 2002, he records this phone call to Laurie Fine. And this year, two more men come forward claiming they, too, were sexually abused by Bernie Fine.

You can read more about it,

Stacey Honowitz, police are investigating, but has the statute of limitations past?

STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Yes. They`re going to have a problem there with the statute of limitations because of the certain crimes that were committed.

But Jane, I just wanted to mention something you`ve been talking about earlier. You know, the fascinating thing that people need to realize is so many people say, "I`m shocked. I can`t believe it." Pedophiles are master manipulators. They`re manipulators towards children, and they`re manipulators towards adults. Because it`s always those people that appear to have a loving relationship that would never hurt a child, that gets involved with a child. That`s the person that you need look out for.

So it`s not surprising that anybody that`s friends with this individual, colleagues of this individual would come out and say, "I would have never guessed that he would do it."

You`re not going to have anal sex or oral sex or touching in front of a crowd of people. It`s the most secretive crime you could possibly be involved in. So everything that you`re talking about this individual, if in fact, it`s true, it`s classic pedophile symptoms. And that`s what you`re seeing now.

You`re going to see probably a lot more people come forward, because there is strength in numbers. When boys come out and talk about it, when girls come out and talk about it, other people feel comfortable and not ashamed to discuss what happened to them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and let`s go out to the phone lines. People want to talk about this. Martha, Texas, your question or thought, Martha?

CALLER: Hi. I had a whole lot to say. I was very, very angry. I was a sex abuse victim. This man, like she -- the lady is saying, they are excellent at hiding and manipulating. They look like the most beautiful people on the outside.

And this is a cancer that has spread, not in just North America. It is everywhere. All over the world. There`s child trafficking, God help us. You know, what are we supposed to do to stop this? These children are innocent. They`re...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s an excellent, excellent point, Martha. What do we do to stop it? And Mark Serrano, I want to ask you. You survived sexual abuse by a priest, you say. Is this going to be on par possibly with the priest sexual molestation scandal?

SERRANO: Well, I`m not sure if the scandal is on par with the Catholic Church, because the structure of the church and the way that bishops are not held accountable. But to your point, Jane, the key here is institutional responses to claims of abuse. Even from a crisis communications standpoint, if you take a look at the university and...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are the flood gates opening? Another coach accused of sexual abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Syracuse University fired assistant basketball coach Bernie Fine. Fine is accused of sexually abusing kids.

ZACH TOMASELLI, ALLEGED VICTIM OF BERNIE Fine: He would basically fondle me four to maybe even five times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Accusing Bernie Fine of molesting him hundreds of times over the course of some 16 years back in the 1980s and 1990s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just opened up Pandora`s Box here and we`re going to start to see more and more people come forward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole things smells rotten, it really does.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking new recordings of the wife of Syracuse assistant basketball coach, Bernie Fine.

Good evening. Jane Velez-Mitchell back with you live from New York City.

The absolutely head-spinning new audio tapes reveal that Laurie Fine, the wife of accused pedophile Bernie Fine, seemingly, seemingly might have known her husband was sexually molesting kids. And there are even claims that she may have witnessed an attack.

Listen to this from ESPN.


LAURIE FINE, WIFE OF BERNIE FINE: Right, right. He just has a nasty attitude because he didn`t get his money, nor did he get what he wanted to get. He didn`t get --

BOBBY DAVIS: It`s not about the money.

FINE: It`s about the (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I know that. I`m just telling for your own good.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Radio host, Arnie Spanier, you cover sports. Now we have another university enveloped by a very similar scandal. I asked one of the men, who is our guest, who says he was abused by a priest if this could mushroom into something that is parallel with the priest sex abuse scandal involving coaches all over the country. Your thoughts?

ARNIE SPANIER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I don`t know if it`s going to mushroom into something that big or if it`s going to find colleges all over the place. But Jane, you know what, enough is enough. We got to help ourselves. We got to stand up like that old movie and say, hey, we`re not going to take this S anymore.

Kids have to understand, you tell your parents, you tell other kids or you know what; you just bust that guy straight in the mouth when he lands his hands on you and you have our permission to go ahead and take out a pedophile like that. We have to stand up for ourselves and say, hey, we`re not going to take this anymore, Jane. We have to do it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I came up -- you know Bill Maher, I`m a big fan of his. He has this thing, "New Rules". I`m not going to steal that but I`ll say, ok, let`s come up with something similar to new rules. Let`s do it different. Ok? Different, from now on; no, period. No gifts. No gifts to little kids when you`re an adult male. No sleepovers with little kids when you`re an adult male. No pulling kids out of school, out of class. No showering with them. No one-on-one private time. Ok?

I mean, these are red flags. Arnie, people say there`s no red flags; these are red flags. Putting a bedroom in your basement is a red, big bleeping red flag.

SPANIER: And Jane, they turn their back to the red flag. You had that guest on a couple of segments ago, who are friends with the Fines, said, he is a great guy. He`s a great -- he is a great guy when he is not out raping little people allegedly. Are you serious?


SPANIER: That is somebody in denial, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Allegedly. Let`s be careful. Let`s be careful.

I think we have to be very careful here because we can get worked up but we have to remember that everybody in this country is given the presumption of innocence. As you heard, Stacey Honowitz, the prosecutor said this may never -- right Stacey -- this may actually never even go. Stacey told us, this may never even go to court. There is a statute of limitations problems here?

Syracuse University had a very strange response. The events of the past week have shaken us all but then they try to defend themselves saying, no other witnesses came forward during the university investigation" In the wake of the Penn State scandal, how much of this is just damage control, damage control -- Arnie.

I mean, he did go to the university at one point. Now why is it that ESPN does better investigations than either the cops or the university?

SPANIER: Oh, Jane, you have to wonder, what the heck is going on where the sports TV station can get the goods but the cops can`t get it? We`re going to have to investigate the police. We want to know what they knew. Was there a cover up?

I don`t even want to say it. It smells real bad like I told you last week, this whole thing stinks. The whole thing stinks with the police. Now we`re going to investigate and if we find out that there was a cover up, we`re coming after you big boys. We are coming after you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I said it. Some famous philosopher, I forget what his name is, said "Power corrupts. Absolutely power corrupts absolutely." And I think that`s part of the issue you here. People who are deified, who are put on a pedestal, who are idealized; we don`t treat them as human beings. Ok.

Anybody who is somebody`s role model, I always grab my purse and run in the other direction. Role models are flesh and blood people and they`re all going to have problems.

Now out to my exclusive guest, Jake Goldenflame. Jake did five years hard time behind bars for two counts of child molestation in the 1980s. Now Jake has turned his life around and is dedicating himself to exposing the toxic live of pedophiles. He has written a book called "Overcoming Sexual Terrorism".

We heard on the tapes that Bernie Fine thought he was above the law. Let`s listen to this from ESPN.


FINE: I said, to him, you know, Bobby and I talked and I know some things about you that if you keep pushing are going to be let out.


FINE: He didn`t even flinch. I.

DAVIS: I know. That`s what I`m saying.

FINE: He says, "Beautiful, let him go ahead. Sure let him go right ahead."

DAVIS: He doesn`t think he can be touched.

FINE: No. He thinks that -- I think he thinks he is above the law.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, first Jake, I`m very happy that you turned your life around. I think that you have done something awful and you have done everything in your power to make amends for that. I applaud that. I know it has to take courage to come forward and be honest about the fact that you were a child molester.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you make of this? Because so many people are saying, friends of theirs, and they are shocked. These are innocent people like, "I don`t believe it. These are great people. These are nice people. These are wonderful people." They give you the shirt -- Bernie Fine would give you the shirt off his back.

GOLDENFLAME: Well, you know, there`s no question but a pedophile is very good with kids. He will be a great person with kids. He`ll be friendly with them. You know what; all of the characteristics you`d like to have a person to have if they`re going to be around kids but for one minor detail -- and I say minor, of course, only cynically -- he is a pedophile.

It goes together. They`re very good with kids and that turns out to be their best weapon as it were. So they go hand in hand or they wouldn`t succeed. That`s what I`m trying to say. That doesn`t mean that everybody who`s good with kids is a pedophile either.

But classically what you`re going to find is, the skilled pedophile is going from kid to kid and is molesting a number of them other the years. In other ways he`s going to seem like a very sterling person because that`s his disguise.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, absolutely. The more toxic it gets behind the curtain, the more the image of perfection has to be maintained. Did you do that? Did you come off as very perfect on the outside?

GOLDENFLAME: I would say I came off as perfectly normal. One of the things that a pedophile goes through is a strange kind of thing. On the one hand he`s like an addict with regard to his drug of choice. His drug of choice is kids. He enjoys his addiction of course.

But on the other hand, after the high, like any other addiction, he goes through a lot of pain and suffering over it because in his un-high moments, he sees what he is. He knows it`s awful. He doesn`t want to be that way. He`d like to get rid of it and can`t. It keeps drawing him back and he enjoys it. He feels awful about then he is drawn back. It`s a repetitive cycle like that.

So what happens is in order to protect himself, he invents two lives for himself. There`s his life as the pedophile where he`s everything foul you can think of. And then to escape from having to face that he lives another life, which is his camouflage life which is seeming to be the nicest person, the most normal guy or real great with kids; whatever this guys would be.

And he doesn`t just do this --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Let me ask you this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to you listen to this clip that aired on ESPN.

GOLDEN: Sure. Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where the wife of the man who was -- the assistant coach who is being accused, he`s been fired but was the assistant coach who is being accused of sexual molestation.

She appears to say that she knew everything that went on, listen to this.


FINE: I know everything that went on, you know. I know everything that went on with him. Bernie has issues. Maybe that he`s not aware of. But he has issues. And you trusted somebody you shouldn`t have trusted.


FINE: Bernie is also in denial. I think that he did the things he did but somehow through his own mental telepathy has erased them out of his mind.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, well she says a couple of things. One, Jake, she says he has some kind of mental telepathy that erases this from his mind. Do you relate to that? Did have you that?

GOLDENFLAME: I didn`t hear that one word in there -- some kind of mental telepathy that erases it -- is that what she said?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, yes. In other words --

GOLDENFLAME: Well, yes, yes. Yes. You move into denial. In other words, after your high is over with, when you have to face what you are, the pain of doing so is so great you shut it off and go back to your camouflage life. That means you don`t even think about it. You don`t even think of yourself that way. You have a different identity as it were.

So what happens is you are doing this to protect yourself but of course, this also makes you more available and accessible to kids. Because that other life you live makes you look like a very normal guy that nobody would suspect. So it gives you the --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I know you want to protect some of your privacy but can you give us some of your grooming techniques? I mean was it gifts? Was it back rubs? Was it back-cracking?

GOLDENFLAME: It was gifts. The standard method I used 25 years ago when I was seeking kids for sex was to offer them money for sex. And it even then, shocked me, how willing so many kids were to get into what we called experimental sex for the price of no more than a Big Mac. It doesn`t sound like they were given any training in morals or a sense of self-respect or decency. You wouldn`t sell yourself for such a cheap price.

I was shocked by that at the time. But that was my MO and it is classically that I think for a lot of men.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, Jake, for being so honest. Parents, if some adult is giving your kids a lot of gifts. Watch out.

Up next a woman to who found out her husband was pedophile.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every single one we talked would defend Coach Fine and not a single one of them gave us even the slightest bit of an impression that these were true allegations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Fine is revered and well-respected who developed many talented basketball players here, he was terminated.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Syracuse assistant basketball coach, Bernie Fine, fired, canned, after a third man comes forward and accuses him of molestation. And it would appear from a recording that Fine`s wife knew about the alleged child sexual abuse.

But that`s not always the case. Now, we have a fascinating guest. Darlene Ellison knows just how secretive pedophiles can be. Her former husband, husband, a man she was married to for more than 10 years, was arrested in an FBI sting. Only then did she discover that he was a sexual predator of young boys.

Joining me now is that courageous woman Darlene Ellison, author of a fantastic book, "The Predator Next Door". Darlene thank you for having the courage to come forward to talk about this; I know it has to be a difficult subject for you but we need it talk about this. This is what our society needs to talk about.

Many people would, the first question they ask is, how is it possible that you were living with this man, married to a pedophile and had no idea what this man was really thinking, what he was really planning, what he was really doing?

DARLENE ELLISON, AUTHOR, "THE PREDATOR NEXT DOOR": You know, as you can imagine, I get asked that all the time and have for the last receive seven years. It is amazing. I had to really do a lot of, you know, gut- wrenching, going inside my own head, going, how did I miss this? How could this have happened? This is the man that I shared my life with, my bed with, we have two children. And in reality, they are the masters at the facade.

And I think that is more the norm that we were compartmentalized. We were the facade, that perfect little lie. So that -- and probably in his own mind, in his sick mind, that helped him find some normalcy, when in reality, we ended up just being the other life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So would you agree with my theory that when you`re too perfect on the outside, watch out there is something going on? I think people who don`t mind admitting foibles and character defects that don`t have to appear perfect are less likely to be up to something very nefarious than someone who has to appear absolutely perfect in a Stepford wife or Stepford husband kind of way.

ELLISON: I do agree with that. There was certainly a very, very high number of perfectionistic tendencies in my ex-husband. But at the same time, there was also a vulnerability. And I think that was almost part of the game, a charismatic game of I`m vulnerable, I need you -- that type of thing. So I definitely think.

And you know, you talked about red flags as well and are there red flags? Yes. But if you take any of those red flags and sit them by themselves. And somebody says, mom, I just met this great guy. He loves kids. He`s this and he`s that. And he loves doing this? Are you really going to say, get away, get away because he loves kids? Absolutely not.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It is easy to be a genius with 20/20 hindsight.

Now -- excuse me -- here is according to ESPN Laurie Fine and Bobby Davis talking in graphic details about what allegedly happened between Davis and Coach Fine.


FINE: He wanted you to grab him?

DAVIS: He tried to make me -- he tried to make me grab him --

I mean at first he would grab me in the, you know -- (INAUDIBLE).

FINE: But you never had any oral sex with him?

DAVIS: No. But I think he would have.

FINE: Of course he would. Why wouldn`t he?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, Laurie also goes on, Darlene, to say, "I thinks he needs that male companionship that I can`t give him, nor is he interested in me and vice versa." Did you have problems sexually in your marriage? I know it is a delicate question. But frankly, I would think that would be a red flag if he doesn`t want to have anything to do with you sexually.

ELLISON: I would agree up to a certain point. The issue is a lot of these marriages -- at some point in time, this heterosexual who was a pedophile is going to start struggling with his relationships. And so at that point in time, she doesn`t know what`s happening inside -- and I don`t mean she Laurie Fine, because I don`t agree with -- I don`t she represents well those -- and I think there are thousands of women out there who`ve been put in this situation. And I do not think that she represents.

And I think if she knew anything, which it sounds like she did, if she knew anything, she should be tried like the rest of them. So I need to clarify that and make sure that I`m not -- you know, or any other woman that is married to a pedophile is compared to that.

You know, I think there are some very, very difficult situations in terms of the sexual life. If you are having problems in your marriage --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side. If it is ok with you, we will take a couple calls.



TOMASELLLI: I was in the hotel room and he would put his hand down my shorts whenever I was sitting there watching TV, and he would basically fondle me four, maybe even five times.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is accuser number three who has just come forward against Bernie Fine who has just been fired as assistant coach at Syracuse University.

Here`s another stunning part of the phone call between his wife the accused wife Laurie Fine or the wife of the accused man and Bobby Davis the accuser in which she reveals just how much she knew about her husband -- from ESPN.


FINE: Right. Right. He just has a nasty attitude because he didn`t get his money, nor did he get what he wanted. He didn`t get --

DAVIS: It`s not about the money.

FINE: It`s about the (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I know that.

So you`re -- I`m just telling you for your own good, you`re better off just staying away from him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But to our knowledge she did not pick up the phone and call cops. We`re awaiting, we hope maybe for a statement from her. She or her attorneys are invited any time on our program. We want to be fair. Ditto for her husband and his attorneys.

We`re here with Darlene Ellison who is the author of this amazing book "The Predator Next Door". And she is courageously talking exclusively with us about her husband was a sexual predator of young boys.

Phone calls light up. Let`s go to Judy, Texas, your question or thought, Judy.

JUDY, TEXAS (via telephone): Hi Jane. First of all I want to say you are absolutely beautiful inside and out. Thank you for all you do.


JUDY: Jane, I got a question about the statute of limitations. It seems to me that these kids are so brave to come forward. And, obviously, firing this guy is the right thing to do. But what happens when there`s a statute of limitation, what does that say to the kids that they can`t go after this guy. Why is there a statute of limitations on something like this?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent question Judy. I want to go to Mark Serrano on this because he is a survivor in the priest sexual abuse scandal. And there was a big controversy about that in that scandal -- Mark.

MARK SERRANO, SEX ABUSE SURVIVOR: Statute of limitations prevents victims from being able to come forward and seek justice. A lot of states have changed that. But what`s needed here, Jane, is a price to be paid for institutions who cover up sex abuse. The institutional response is just as important as the tips and the tools that we give kids to protect themselves.

And that`s what we need to focus on and changing the law is a very important step but holding these institutions accountable, holding Syracuse accountable for not taking greater steps to protect kids from Bernie Fine and taking a look at the police and they did to cover this up is very, very important. And your caller`s got a great question for that.


Darlene Ellison, how did they finally catch your husband and what was your reaction when you found out your beloved husband of ten years was a sexual predator of young boys?

ELLISON: He was actually traveling -- he had gone to San Diego, unbeknownst to me. We had actually just gotten divorced. He had been asking for a divorce for quite a while. I had not agreed because I could not put a thumb on why he exactly wanted this divorce. He was traveling -- he had been in San Diego, was traveling to Mexico.

There was an 18-month undercover investigation. He was part of an organization called NAMBLA, North American Man-Boy Love Association, and had been for apparently many years, some believe before he and I even met. And yes that organization does exist.

I actually got a phone call from the security alarm system company for his home, notifying me that someone had set off the alarms and I walked in on the FBI search.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darlene, unbeknownst to you your husband was a pedophile. Looking back, anything stand out as a possible warning bell or red flag?

ELLISON: You know, I think the message that I would like to get across is that any given one red flag, when we heard earlier in the show about the red flags of pedophilia and any one red flag in and of itself does not necessarily mean someone is a pedophile. I think what we need and the message we need to get out there is for our children -- adults and that you have to add up the things that we`re calling red flags.

He enjoyed being around children. He was a perfectionist. He tended towards dating women, single women with, you know, with children or disadvantaged children, et cetera, et cetera. I think we have to add the red flags up and we`ve got to trust our gut. If we know anything we need to report it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If they make you feel crazy chances are you`re not.

ELLISON: That`s right.