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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
New Revelations About Abuse at Syracuse University; Iranian Students Storm British Embassy; New Violence in Tahrir Square; Biden Makes Surprise Visit to Iraq
Aired November 29, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Erin. Thanks. Good evening, everyone.
We begin with new word from Mike Lang, one of three accusers making sex abuse allegations against Bernie Fine, Syracuse University's fired associate men's basketball coach. He spoke to our Gary Tuchman who joins us shortly.
Also tonight, keeping them honest, new revelations about what might have been done when first accuser called police with his allegations but wasn't. It's a procedure followed in other big cities but not in Syracuse. The accuser's name is Bobby Davis, a former SU ball boy who is now 39 years old.
He told ESPN that the abuse started in 1984 when he was 12 and continued for more than a decade. He recalled he waited until 2002 to phone Syracuse city police who told him they couldn't pursue charges because the statute of limitations had expired. The city's police chief admits they could have done a better job. He said that in 2002 that the procedures which are in effect today were not in effect back then, the procedures that would mean an allegation would be logged into a computer database. Back then they did next to nothing. Not only did they not pursue charges. They never started an investigation or filed a report. No paperwork at all. The question -- is that unusual?
The NYPD tells CNN's Susan Candiotti that its own sex crime investigators are required to document any and all interview with alleged sex abuse victims even if the statute of limitation has expired. One reason sex abuser rarely stops at one victim. If the allegations against Bernie Fine are true -- and right now that is a very big if -- he hasn't been charged with anything yet. But if the accusations are true he was also abusing Zachary Tomaselli in 2002 allegedly in a Pittsburgh Hotel room in January of that year.
Again, that's only an allegation. We should point out that coach Fine denies all the allegations against him. So, the police say they could have done better. They admit that now. The University on the other hand is defending its role in the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY CANTOR, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY CHANCELLOR: Let me tell you that we've been very straightforward and candid about this whole process. We've gone through our due diligence. New things came up and we felt that it was important both for Bernie Fine and for the University to move forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's University Chancellor Nancy Cantor this afternoon.
Back in 2005, the school conducted an internal investigation and concluded there was no wrongdoing on the part of coach Fine. But keeping them honest, Syracuse University has neither released the report to the public nor discussed it in any detail beyond the one page statement of the 17th.
The bottom line, "if any evidence or corroboration of the allegations had surfaced, we would have terminated the associate coach and reported it to the police immediately."
Keeping them honest, those sex abuse allegations even highly credible ones rarely come with corroboration, though in this case, coach Fine's wife admitted on tape in a phone conversation with Bobby Davis in 2002 that her husband, quote, "had issues."
And according to a transcript of the recording the "Syracuse Post Standard" Davis asked her, "you think I'm the only one he's ever done that to?" And she replied "no." Now, this is Laurie Fine talking to Bobby Davis in 2002.
We should point now Syracuse University did not have access to the tape when they conducted their internal investigation. But we have yet to hear from the University whether they spoke to Misses Fine in the course that investigation. In fact, we have no official idea who they talked to at all.
The report remains off limits to the public. And according to Misses Fine in that same taped conversation, we hear her say that her husband thinks he's above the law, which remains to be seen. Federal authorities are looking into Zach Tomaselli's allegations which involve crossing state lines which could be a federal crime.
We have more on that angle shortly. But first Gary Tuchman, up in Syracuse tonight with more on the investigation and accuser number two. Gary?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, accuser number two is Bobby Davis' step-brother Mike Lang. Mike Lang is 45 years old. He is the older brother. He said he was a Syracuse University ball boy for 15 years, starting when he was in junior high school. He says he kept quiet about these allegations for many years because he felt helpless and was embarrassed. But now he's speaking out to authorities, and he talked to me today.
TUCHMAN: When you saw the Penn State story break, how did it make you feel? MIKE LANG, SECOND BERNIE FINE'S ACCUSER: Well, I was sitting here in my house all alone. And my stomach just turned. And all I can think of is what me, and my little brother went through, and it's happening all over again.
TUCHMAN: And initially what did you think of Bernie Fine?
LANG: I thought he was a great guy. And, you know, he would bring me to every practice. He'd bring me to all the games. He brought me to the big east tournament. I thought he was a great guy.
TUCHMAN: You would go to Bernie Fine's house.
LANG: Every day.
TUCHMAN: And why would you go there? Would he invite you, ask you to go there?
LANG: It was like my home. I can go there any time I wanted to.
TUCHMAN: So you'd be at his house. Would his wife be home?
LANG: Sometimes. She'd be doing whatever she did and he'd be in there watching the games, making phone calls to recruits or -- it was like a home to me. It was like my home.
TUCHMAN: He'd invite you to his house and you would hang out there.
LANG: Right. I'd go over there every day.
TUCHMAN: And most of the time, you would just watch TV or would you just study?
LANG: Watch TV, rake his lawn, do whatever I wanted to do. It was like my house, you know?
TUCHMAN: So you considered him like a fatherly figure?
LANG: Yes, absolutely.
TUCHMAN: But when did you realize that there was something wrong with what he was doing, what did he do to you?
LANG: He touched -- he kept touching me.
TUCHMAN: So where, though? Where were you touching?
LANG: In my leg and my penis.
TUCHMAN: And did you say something to him?
LANG: Yes. I said, Bernie, please stop this because I'm not that kind and I won't tolerate it. If you don't want me to come over here no more, I won't come over here. But if you keep doing it, I won't come over here. TUCHMAN: You were a kid and you knew this was wrong and here's this grown-up man doing this to you. When you said this to him, stop doing it, what did he say to you?
LANG: He did say nothing. He just moved his hand then wouldn't do it for that night.
TUCHMAN: Do you have any idea, Mike, how many times Bernie Fine touched you inappropriately?
LANG: At least 20, 30, 40. I mean, when do you stop counting?
TUCHMAN: Did you tell him to stop doing that on another occasion after he did it the first time?
LANG: Yes. It continued to happen. Then I told him, please don't do that no more, but you couldn't tell him no. It was hard to say anything because you think you're with a God, you know. Just hard to come out and say anything to anybody about it.
TUCHMAN: So you regarded Bernie Fine as this exalted figure.
LANG: Well, a father figure, you know? Yes, everybody did.
TUCHMAN: But later you introduced your brother to be a ball boy and your brother started making similar allegations, right?
LANG: When I got back from college, yes, that's what I heard.
TUCHMAN: And when your brother told you this, when your brother Bobby told you this, you must have thought to yourself -- do you tell him this had happen to you also?
LANG: Not really. Not at first I don't believe I did.
TUCHMAN: Were you embarrassed?
LANG: Yes, I was. I blamed it on myself because I'm the one that brought him along after me. And now I got all this guilt feeling to live with now, you know?
TUCHMAN: What do you hope happens?
LANG: I just hope that this -- no other kids get abused. And that's the main reason why I came out and said what I had to say and what happened to me is because I don't want this to happen to anybody else.
TUCHMAN: Mike Lang has two teenage sons. His younger son was the same age he was when he started as a ball boy. He tells us that he just told his son what he told us today just last week. The first time his son found out about this. Anderson.
COOPER: And Syracuse had a big game tonight. You were in the dome for the beginning of the game. What was the atmosphere like there like?
TUCHMAN: Yes, it was very interesting, Anderson. Because a few days ago Syracuse had a game before Bernie Fine was fired. And they actually left an honorary seat on the bench for him. Well today, there was no honorary seat left for him. Jim Boeheim, the head coach, got huge applause but there was absolutely no mention whatsoever of Bernie Fine.
COOPER: Alright, Gary. Appreciate your reporting. Thanks.
Let's bring in our legal panels, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Sunny Hostin out of "In Session" on our sister network TruTV, both were former federal prosecutors. Sunny specialized in prosecuting sex crimes.
Jeff, does this strike you at all that Syracuse police did not create any reports after they were first alerted these allegations back in 2002?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Somewhat, but I have to say I'm less outraged perhaps than I should be about the conduct of the Syracuse police. Based on their report, they did not have a victim report. They had a friend of a victim who said something -- that Fine did this. But the victim did not come forward.
So I mean, that's not an absent of corroboration. That's an absence of evidence. And so, yes, they should have kept a record. But should they have prosecuted? Should they have proceeded with that state of evidence? I don't think they did anything wrong.
SUNNY HOSTIN, LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR, IN SESSION, TRUTV: I'm going to disagree with Jeff. The way I read it the victim certainly came forward later and called the detective contact. That he was given once he told that story, that detective said, you know, the statute of limitations has run so, there's nothing we can do unless you come forward with other witnesses and other victims.
He did give them the names of other people. They felt that the accusations didn't warrant an investigation, didn't warrant documentation. And I think they had enough at that point to, at the very least, Anderson, document what they were told. At the very least perhaps to follow up at Syracuse. At the very least to do something more than what they did. And I think now the chief of the Syracuse polices has acknowledged that, right?
He said now that I'm the chief of police, I'm changing the procedures. The procedures that were followed in this case, in my view, having prosecuted these kinds of cases were inadequate, woefully inadequate and inappropriate.
COOPER: And Jeff, if it's true in fact that there was, you know, later contact, do you agree that they should have -- that it makes sense to have a record on file? TOOBIN: Yes, they should have. I mean, I wasn't clear. They had no witness where they could conceivably have prosecuted anything. I mean, there was nothing within the statute of limitations that Syracuse could have done. Certainly they could have done more to get the information to Syracuse. I mean, that's the thing that is so troubling is that even if you don't prosecute, you can do something to protect children. And that's what the real failure here was, not the failure to prosecute.
COOPER: The secret service is now the lead -- doing the lead investigation on this case.
HOSTIN: That's right.
COOPER: In the wake, I guess, of the third person who has come forward, Zach Tomaselli, because the possibility of crossing state lines.
HOSTIN: That's right. Apparently his abuse allegedly occurred in Pittsburgh. And so, the secret service taking the lead on the investigation tells me that the federal government is certainly looking at it. The U.S. attorney's office probably looking at it, as well. That tells me this has become a federal investigation, as it should be, if these allegations are true, if children were trafficked across state lines for sexual purposes, if abuse happens in more than one state.
HOSTIN: That's a federal area.
COOPER: So Jeff, how did it change if it becomes a federal case?
TOOBIN: Well, Syracuse police department is a -- you know, it's a city, but it's a small city. And you need really specialized expertise to take a computer and look at see if there's evidence of trafficking of Kiddies' porn of e-mails that might suggest that there was some sort of activity going on. That's the kind of thing that only a -- usually. I mean, not something like the New York City police department. But you really need the feds to have that kind of expertise. And I think it only makes sense for them to be involved at this stage.
HOSTIN: And I'd like to mention, under the federal statute, the statute of limitations would not have run. And that's really what's important. Because if you look at the federal guidelines, they have until the victim turns 25 or up to ten years after the alleged abuse, whichever one is longer. So, when you look at it like that, now the federal government has a second chance of going after Bernie Fine if this is in fact true.
COOPER: Is there a federal statute of limitation? I mean, does that affect the statute of limitations?
HOSTIN: There is a federal statute of limitations but it hasn't run yet if the allegations happened in 2002, 2003. TOOBIN: I think there's a chance they haven't run yet.
HOSTIN: That's right.
TOOBIN: That's the thing. We don't know exactly when these alleged actions took place. If they were in the '80s even the federal statute has run. But if they were 2002, 2003 there's a chance for federal prosecution.
HOSTIN: That's right, that's right.
COOPER: And it does seems, Jeff, I mean, one of the tragedies here is that a number of people seem to have known about these allegations for year, the University, the police, ESPN, the local newspaper, but no one could or did put it together because they seem to have different pieces of the puzzle?
TOOBIN: I mean that's what's so maddening about this story. Is that, you know, if the cops had the ESPN tape or if -- this were individual pieces of very apparently incriminating evidence, but no one entity had enough information.
COOPER: What I also don't understand why the first accuser, if he had this tape which he apparently made, why not hand that over to police?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, I have to say the behavior of the accusers here is somewhat peculiar. It's very important to point out that being a victim of sexual abuse, if that's what happened, is extremely traumatizing, extremely embarrassing, it is not like reporting your car was broken into. It's something very difficult to come forward --
COOPER: And I guess the argument that he might say that he had already been told that the statute of limitations had expired so therefore, he felt the police weren't interested. That would be one argument.
TOOBIN: That would be the argument, but you would also hope that they'd be concerned about the possibility of future abuse in other victims and that they should have come forward.
COOPER: We'll continue on. Sunny Hostin, Jeff Toobin. Thanks very much.
Let us know what you think, we are on facebook, on Google plus. Add us in your circle. Follow us on twitter @andersoncooper. I'll be tweeting tonight.
Up next, "raw politics" Herman Cain talking tonight, but is he saying anything about the affair allegations against him, allegations of a 13-year affair. We'll hear from the accuser's attorney tonight. I spoke to before we went to air.
Later for first time a view from inside Syria's most dangerous city, Homs. Through the eyes of the western reporter who was snacked, was smuggled in. And witness witnessing increasingly an arms resistance against the government taking shape.
Let's also check in right now with Isha and see what she's following. Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Gary Giordano, the American held in Aruba, is a free man tonight. Giordano was arrested in connection with the disappearance of Robyn Gardner but was never charged with a crime. Will police be able to solve the case, now that the prime suspect is headed back to the U.S.? That and more when 360 continue.
COOPER: "raw politics" tonight, Herman Cain denies he's had an affair with an Atlanta woman but admitted he's reassessing his campaign in light of the allegations. Speaking tonight in Michigan, he made no mention of the story which he says is taking a toll on his family and he admits, his fund-raising. Whether it is hurting his poll number is still unclear.
He has, however, dropped out of first place since allegations of sexual harassment involving four accusers have come to light. The latest CNN/orc poll taken before the affair allegations surfaced, has him at 17 percent behind Mitt Romney and front-runner Newt Gingrich.
In a moment we'll talk to Ed Buckley, the attorney for Ginger White who said she had the long-running affair with Cain. But first Tom Foreman at how he got to this point.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A tea party favorite, Herman Cain was a little known long shot for most voters when he entered the race. A former head of Godfather's Pizza, a radio host and previously unsuccessful candidate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Herman Cain.
FOREMAN: Then the debates began and suddenly his wit and simple approach to complex issues like reworking the tax code had everyone talking.
HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: 9-9-9.
FOREMAN: In October, Cain's poll numbers rocketed past Perry, Gingrich, Paul, Bachmann, nearly overtaking Romney, but then came the stumbles on the occupy wall street movement.
CAIN: I don't have facts to back this up but I happen to believe the policy of the Obama administration.
FOREMAN: On Planned Parenthood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE HOST: You said Planned Parenthood was trying to put all these centers into the black communities because they wanted to kill black babies before they were born.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE HOST: You still stand by that?
CAIN: I still stand by that.
FOREMAN: On illegal immigration.
CAIN: We'll have a fence, 20 feet high. We are going to have barbed wire on the top. It is going to be electrocuted, electrified. And there's going to be a sign on the other side that said it will kill you.
FOREMAN: Later he said he was joking, but the controversies added up.
Among them, he said as president he would negotiate with terrorists then he backtracked. He said China was trying to develop nuclear weapons even though the Chinese have had them for decades. His campaign manager appeared in an ad smoking infuriating health advocates.
(On-camera): Amid all that comes the accusations of sexual harassment, infidelities, cover-ups involving women Cain allegedly knew or worked with for a long time.
GINGER WHITE, CLAIMS AFFAIR WITH HERMAN CAIN: I was aware that he was married. And I was also aware that I was involved in a very inappropriate situation, relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE HOST: Did you know her for 13 years?
CAIN: Yes, but did not have an affair.
FOREMAN: So far he's repeatedly denied doing anything wrong.
CAIN: I have never acted inappropriately with anyone, period.
FOREMAN: But his numbers are plunging and with them perhaps his chances of ever taking the White House.
Tom foreman, CNN. Washington.
COOPER: Well again, Herman Cain denies the harassment allegations and the allegations he had a long-running affair with Ginger White. Shortly before air time in a "360" exclusive, I spoke with Miss White's attorney Edward Buckley.
COOPER: So, Mister Buckley, Herman Cain sent a message to his supporters today. Here's what he had to say about your client. He said and I quote, "as you probably heard yesterday a troubled Atlanta businesswoman used national media outlets to promulgate a fabricated, unsubstantiated story about a 13-year affair with me. I'm writing to you today to assure you that this woman's story is completely false."
He also said that she made it clear she was abusing their friendship. What's your reaction to that or your client's reaction?
EDWARD BUCKLEY, GINGER WHITE'S ATTORNEY: I think that's a mouthful, and I'm very surprised at how aggressive that is and very sorry that Mister Cain has chosen to take that approach.
COOPER: Your client stands by her story?
BUCKLEY: She has consistently.
COOPER: Herman Cain's lawyer confirmed for us tonight that they've not ruled out a defamation suit against your client. Is that something you had considered before, is that something you take seriously?
BUCKLEY: I think that would be a very bad idea for a variety of reasons, and I think that -- well, I just think that that would be a very bad idea.
COOPER: His lawyer also says that there's no documentation out there that could prove or disprove this story, that it was all going to come down to he said, she said. Your client has spoken about trips, about flights, about dinners, which is all, I guess, verifiable information. Do you or do your client plan to release any more documentation to back up her claim?
BUCKLEY: We have some additional phone records, which we'll release. As far as tickets and that sort of thing go, those are the sorts of records that, you know, airlines might have. She did not retain any of those. And so she doesn't have that, no.
COOPER: But is there anything to -- any evidence that she had of souvenirs she collected or anything, photos that were taken over the course of 13 years?
BUCKLEY: No, no photographs. And I think that that was, you know, a matter of choice that there weren't photographs. So no, she doesn't have anything like that.
COOPER: We saw the phone records of your client already released, allegedly showing text messaging between herself and Herman Cain which he hasn't denied. Does your client have any of those actual text messages?
BUCKLEY: She does have some of them.
COOPER: Would she consider releasing them? Would there be anything in those text messages that would be further documentation?
BUCKLEY: I think that's something that she's considered and neither ruled in nor ruled out at this point in time.
COOPER: How does she feel about how Herman Cain has responded to all this? And is there anything about his response that would lead her to want to now release whatever other information or messages she has?
BUCKLEY: I don't think that -- I think she's saddened by his response, but I don't think it was completely unexpected, and I think that she expected that she would be spoken of in a disparaging way, and she was disappointed in the way that he spoke about some of the other women who have -- who have made concerns known and so she expected the same. And I don't think that her point of view is that she should respond tit for tat. I don't think that's a kind of person she is.
COOPER: Ed Buckley. Appreciate your time tonight. Thank you, sir.
BUCKLEY: Thank you, sir.
COOPER: Still ahead, the Syrian government still, not letting journalists in to the country. But a few have managed to get inside, to sneaked inside including the BBC's Paul Wood who smuggled across the border from Lebanon with volunteers running guns to the opposition. We are going to talk to him about what he saw, next.
Also, in tonight "crime & punishment" an angry judge throws the book at Doctor Conrad Murray saying he's dangerous and has no sense of remorse. But the question is will he serve his full sentence? Our legal panel weighs in, coming up.
COOPER: Tonight, an extraordinary look inside Syria. Look, the regime there does not want you to see. A U.N. report released just yesterday said Syrian forces have committed gross violations of human rights since March when the protests against President Bashar al-Assad began and began being harsh with violence. The report is based on interviews with victims and witnesses, U.N. observers were not allowed into the country.
The Syrian government has also kept reporters out. But the BBC's Paul Wood just managed to get in. He was smuggled into Syria from Lebanon with volunteers running guns to the opposition. I'll speak to Paul in just a moment, but first a look at what he found.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL WOOD, BBC AFGHANISTAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Syria's border with Lebanon. We're traveling with men taking in guns to a growing insurgency. They enter Syria. The area's heavily mined and full of army patrols.
A man was captured here just hours earlier. Into Homs, the Syrian army is all around. They'll probably shoot if they spot us. The suburb, the people are hemmed in by the security forces. The fear is suffocating.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: A remarkable dangerous assignment. Paul Wood of the BBC joins me from London.
You were actually there when a small number, five or six, Syrian army soldier, low level army soldiers actually did defect. What did they say about why they defected?
WOOD: I mean, it was a story we heard all the time from whenever we met free army people, they would say we were told by our officers we would be fighting terrorist groups, then we came to Homs and found that we were firing on our own people.
More or less every single day we saw these defections. It is not an easy thing for them to do. Typically, you'd hear a lot of gunfire and that would be people literally having to fight their way out of their bases.
In Homs, one evening we saw a fire fight going on about an hour with tracer arcing backwards and forwards over the buildings. This was five men who had made it out. The sixth had not. He was shot trying to do that.
So it's a very difficult thing for them to achieve. And of course, once they do that, they're out with their weapons and they become part of the armed opposition.
COOPER: What is it like being in Homs? I mean, I've seen it through cell phone videos of people being killed by Syrian security forces. It's been under siege. What's it like actually being there?
WOOD: It was difficult to get in, first of all. The city is ringed by checkpoints. And they have built a large berm with a ditch, which is supposed to stop the motor bikes that the opposition and the free army, as it calls itself, is using to run guns and medicine into Homs.
First, you have to sneak in on foot. There's random and unexplained gunfire. We were taking a tour. And passed in front of a checkpoint and we heard automatic fire going over our heads. Did a quick u-turn, took shelter behind a building, then a few minutes later a teen aged boy was rushed past in a car with very ugly looking wounds to his knee.
There's a feeling of constant siege, constant pressure, constant tension, a feeling that the army will come in at any moment and kick down the door. And one of the very sad and upsetting things that happened while we were there was that a 6-year-old boy was shot dead by a sniper while he was playing on his doorstep.
Of course, that is a very narrow view of the Sunni protesters in one part of Homs. Homs is an ethnically divided city. I should say that while we were coming out, state television was showing a Christian mother who said that her 9-year-old had been shot dead in similar circumstances.
People who remember the Balkan wars, it just felt a lot like Sarajevo, atmospherically, the kind of images we were getting. That always in the background that sectarian question hanging there rather malignantly and pointing the way to what happened in the future in Syria.
COOPER: Yes, a very troubling comparison. Paul Wood, again, thanks for being on. Just extraordinary work. Thank you.
We're going to check in now with some other stories. Isha is back with the "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, Britain is serious consequences after Iranian students stormed it embassy in Tehran.
They caused extensive damage according to Britain's foreign secretary who blasted Iran for failing to protect the embassy as international law requires.
The students were part of a protest demanding British ambassador return home days after Iran's parliament voted to expel him.
In Egypt's Tahrir Square, several people were hurt in night time clashes between protesters and vendors. At least a dozen gunshots were reported. The violence came on day two of historic parliamentary elections that will continue over the next several months.
Vice President Joe Biden is in Iraq. His surprise visit coming as the last American troops get ready to depart by the end of the year.
Anderson, the Casey Anthony trial was the number one searched news story of 2011. That's according to Microsoft's search engine Bing. They released a top ten list.
Osama Bin Laden's death was number two followed by Hurricane Irene. Do you know the number one most searched celebrity?
COOPER: No, who?
SESAY: Pretend you care.
COOPER: Let me guess. Does the name begin with K?
COOPER: OK. Who?
SESAY: If I say the words baby, baby, baby, will that give you a clue?
COOPER: Justin Bieber?
SESAY: There you go.
COOPER: OK, all right, interesting.
SESAY: Cultural stuff -- no, not the Kardashians. COOPER: All right, time for the shot. You never know when fame will find you. For Nicole Harris of El Paso, Texas, who was at the gym on a treadmill.
This video is going viral on YouTube so we call her dancing queen. She started treadmill dancing after she hurt her knee and heard that sideways walking on the treadmill can help that.
SESAY: She's got moves.
COOPER: I would find that very distracting running on the treadmill if she was doing that next to me.
SESAY: I find running on the treadmill fairly distressing anyway. So maybe that would be --
COOPER: But yes, I would definitely be distracted. I would then be looking at her and I'd fall off the treadmill, which is always painful.
SESAY: Then you'd end up on "The Ridiculist".
COOPER: Yes, it wouldn't be the first time. All right, we'll check in with you a little later on.
Serious stuff ahead, Dr. Conrad Murray's sentence in the death of Michael Jackson. The judge threw the book at him, but it doesn't mean he'll be in jail for long. Our legal panel weighs in on that Mark Geragos and Marsha Clark as well.
Also coming up, a major development in the case of Robyn Gardner, the American woman missing in Aruba, presumed dead. The only suspect in the case no longer in custody. Tonight, we'll tell you he was let go ahead.
COOPER: "Crime & Punishment" tonight. A judge threw the book at Conrad Murray sentencing him to four years in jail for the death of Michael Jackson, the maximum punishment.
Jackson as we all know by now hired Murray to be his personal physician as he prepare for that comeback concert. He trusted Murray with his life.
Instead Murray violated the trust, became involved in a, quote, "cycle of horrible medicine," that's what Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor told the courtroom today.
He spent 30 minutes explaining why he was issuing the harshest sentence possible. Here's some of what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE MICHAEL PASTOR, LOS ANGELES COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: The court has determined that the appropriate term is the high term of four years imprisonment. I do so because, once again, I find that Dr. Murray abandoned his patient.
Dr. Murray repeatedly lied, engaged in deceitful misconduct. He has absolutely no sense of remorse, absolutely no sense of fault and is and remains dangerous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Here's the thing, though. Murray will likely serve less than half of his sentence. Let's talk about that with criminal defense attorney, Mark Geragos and former deputy district attorney, Marcia Clark, who is also the author of "Guilt by Association."
So Marcia, your reaction first of all to today's sentencing?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER LOS ANGELES DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, I have to say, Anderson, it's no surprise. We were all predicting that he would max out, Conrad Murray, at the top term of four years.
And also because of the realignment sentencing laws now, he's not going to go to state prison because he's not considered a violent felon under the laws that have now been enacted.
So he's remanded to the custody of the sheriff, which means L.A. County jail and perhaps house arrest.
COOPER: Is that just?
CLARK: That's it. That's all that we can really do. And of course, don't forget, involuntary manslaughter only carries four years. And it always has been allowed to be given what we call halftime, good time work time credit of 50 percent.
So in that sense the sentence is exactly what the charge is, you can't ask for more than that. But in terms of the actual place he does the time, that's the new thing with our realignment laws and that's because California's prisons are bursting at the seams.
COOPER: Mark, you can hear the frustration in the judge's voice. That he was particularly angry about the recording that Dr. Murray made of Michael Jackson when he was barely conscious. Do you think this was a fair ruling? Do you think he should have received the maximum sentence?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there's a bunch of questions in there. Number one, did I expect it to be four years? Absolutely. Did I think it was a fair ruling?
Given the fact - I mean, there is this backdrop that he could have been charged with what we've discussed before, Anderson, implied malice, second degree murder, where he would have faced a life sentence, so he got that break that way.
Would somebody else have received this sentence or been prosecuted to this extent? I don't think so. I think -- but for Michael Jackson, he wouldn't have had the resources that were expended. Was this judge frustrated? I think that he actually was and I think you can hear it. I think his voice betrayed the fact that he was disgusted by what happened here.
And so I'm with Marcia, I don't think that there was anybody who was around the court system who thought for a second that he was going to get a minute less than four years.
COOPER: Marcia, Conrad Murray's attorney said today that maybe his appearance on the "Today" show in a documentary were not a very good idea. Do you think that's an understatement? Do you think those appearances hurt him?
CLARK: Talk about an understatement, Anderson, really, you think? Yes, horrible idea. Why would you do something like this? It really just kind of underlines his self-centeredness, his remorselessness, his sense of entitlement, his sense that he did nothing wrong.
It underlines every bad thing that you can imagine of what a judge looks at in sentencing. And one of the primary factors that a judge does look at sentencing is an acceptance of liability and acceptance of responsibility and remorse.
And what he did in doing the documentary and making these appearances and these denials of culpability, he shows he has no remorse at all. Any judge is going to be upset by that.
COOPER: So that's really interesting, Mark, that showing remorse really does can have an impact on sentencing?
GERAGOS: Yes, absolutely. One of the things you always hear is there is no remorse or there is remorse. If somebody pleads early on, if somebody accepts responsibility early on, if somebody says yes, I did it what I call confess and avoid.
That's the whole nature of the term confess and avoid, basically you embrace it and you say I did it. That's something that's a huge factor under the rules of court and it goes a long way with judges.
And to some degree it mollifies people who have been wronged, gives them -- I know the favorite word now in the victim's right movement is closure. Nobody ever gets closure if there's no remorse.
COOPER: Mark Geragos, Marcia Clark, I appreciate your perspectives tonight. Thank you.
Up next tonight, another case we've been following closely, the man being held in connection with the disappearance of the American woman, Robyn Gardner in Aruba, he's a free man tonight. We'll tell you why.
And the winners are, we've got the latest on the lotto drama in Connecticut. Are these guys the true winners? That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Welcome back. We're following a number of other stories. Check in with Isha again in a "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Isha.
SESAY: Anderson, Gary Giordano, the U.S. citizen held in connection with the disappearance of a Maryland woman in Aruba is now a free man.
He's never been charged in the case, and the judge rule head can no longer be kept in custody. As for the missing woman, Robyn Gardner, she was last seen in August when she went snorkeling with Giordano.
According to reports Joran Van Der Sloot, the man long suspected of murdering American student, Natalee Holloway in Aruba has filed a lawsuit against authorities with the Chilean and Peruvian government and the father of the woman he is accused of killing in Lima.
He's reportedly seeking $10 million claiming his rights were violated when he was nabbed in Chile and also jailed in Peru.
American Airlines parent company has filed for bankruptcy reorganization. The airline posted a profit in only one quarter since 2007 and has lost nearly $5 billion over the same time period.
Anderson, there's lotto drama in Connecticut. The day after three asset managers claimed the largest Powerball jackpot in state's history.
An executive acting on their behalf is denying that there's a fourth winner who wanted to remain anonymous. The men netted a onetime payout of $1.35 million after taxes and have setup a $1 million trust fund to help veteran causes.
Now only one of the guy spoke at the press conference on Monday and all he had to say was, it feels good.
COOPER: I wonder do they have to do a press conference, I wonder, by the lotto rules.
SESAY: I don't know that they have to do one. I mean, surely there have been winners in the past that we've never seen on camera. I don't think they have to.
COOPER: It seems like all of the people could have theoretically won, asset managers, it's not like --
SESAY: I hear you. But you know, at least you're more interested in what I just said because when I clearly brought the last news, you weren't interested until we brought up the shot. What was that about?
COOPER: What do you mean?
SESAY: I'm just saying this relationship. You need to work a little bit. You need to give a little. COOPER: I was interested in that.
SESAY: All right. Well, be quiet and listen to the commentary on the short again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's breaking it down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's got style.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see her drop it? She has a little salsa move she does every once in a while.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's 360, there she is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I'm hearing a little 360 there. You know, it does annoy me at the gym when people like dance and stuff at the gym.
COOPER: I don't know. It's just annoying. Doesn't it annoy you at all? I don't know. It just bothers me.
SESAY: Don't be crotchety.
COOPER: I'm too crotchety. That's my problem. You're right. I should just open up my heart.
SESAY: Yes, feel the love.
COOPER: All right. Isha, thanks very much.
Let's check in with Piers Morgan for what's coming up on "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" -- Piers.
PIERS MORGAN, HOST, CNN'S "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT": Well, I can assure you no British people dance in gyms.
COOPER: British people don't go to gyms.
MORGAN: Not really, no. Anyway, tonight -- moving swiftly on -- I'll sit down with an insider from the Herman Cain campaign with all this talk of reassessing. One person claiming an affair, is the Cain train permanently off the rails? We'll look into that.
Also tonight, I'll talk to Conrad Murray's defense attorney. Will his client actually do the time? Plus from "America's Most Wanted" John Walsh, his take on scandals in college sports and the biggest crime headlines of the day. That and more at the top of the hour. Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Piers, look forward to it. Thanks very much.
Coming up a guy in Vermont makes t-shirts in his garage and he gets threatened by a major fast food corporation. "The Ridiculist" is next.
COOPER: Time now for "The Ridiculist" and tonight we're adding a David and Goliath story we like to call it Chick-Fillet versus the t- shirt guy.
In this corner, Chick-Fillet, a fastfood corporation with more than 1,500 locations and annual sales totaling more than $3.5 billion. In this corner, Bo Muller Moore, a guy in Vermont who makes t-shirts in his garage.
Some of his t-shirts read eat more kale. And Chick-Fillet does not like that, no, sir, not one bit. The company is threatening to shut the guy down because it says that eat more kale is too close to its eat more chicken slogan and will confuse customers and dilute its brand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Couldn't have said it better myself, t-shirt guy. Bo sells his handmade t-shirts on his web site. He also offers t-shirts emblazoned with words like cheese, compost and free range.
Bo says it is all about eating healthy and supporting local farmers. He tells New England cable news that Chick-Fillet's argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's t-shirts and it's chicken sandwiches. It's apples to zebras.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've never sold a chicken sandwich in your life?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have not sold a chicken sandwich, no, and will not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just for the record, this is a Chick-Fillet chicken sandwich and this is kale. Now, I don't know, you can make the call. I don't even know what kale, frankly.
On his web site, Bo says he's one man with one squeegee and that's how he likes it. Chick-Fillet's web site, the company states its corporate purpose is such, quote, "To glorify God by being a faithful steward of all that is entrusted to us."
And it's true, the company has been entrusted with the care of a whole herd of cows with dubious spelling skills. You notice at the end there Chick-Fillet's other slogan. We didn't invent chicken, just the chicken sandwich.
They invented the chicken sandwich? I think maybe the earl of sandwich might have had a little something to say about that. Unfortunately, he's been deceased since the late 1700s. Maybe Chick- Fillet can go after him as well and start using a new slogan, I sue dead people.
In any event, thanks to Al gore's invention, the internet, there's an online petition in support the t-shirt guy that currently has about 10,000 signatures. In the petition, t-shirt guy said this isn't the first time that Chick-Fillet has come after him.
In 2006, he got a cease and desist letter from the company demanding that he stop using the "eat more kale" logo and send the company all of his t-shirts. Back then he got his own lawyer and the company backed off and he said he's willing to do it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not going to be an easy fight and it will cost me a lot. Hopefully it won't cost me my business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Keep fighting the good fight, t-shirt guy, because when it comes to epic battles involving esoteric trademark law, we'll root for a man with just a squeegee and a dream.
That does it for us. We'll see you again at 10:00 tonight on "360." Thanks for watching. "PIERS MORGAN" starts now.