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Will Herman Cain Drop Out?; Lawsuit Filed Against Penn State; Interview With White House Press Secretary Jay Carney

Aired November 30, 2011 - 22:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. It's 10:00 p.m. here on the East Coast.

We begin tonight "Keeping Them Honest," Herman Cain and Ginger White, the woman who says she had a 13-year affair with him. Both are speaking out today. He is denying the affair. She is recalling details of it and saying he's not fit to be president. Someone is not telling the truth.

Wherever the truth may be, however, Herman Cain is in full damage control mode and could drop out of the race.

CNN's Jim Acosta caught up with the candidate in Dayton, Ohio.


JIM ACOSTA, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Cain? Mr. Cain, Jim Acosta with CNN. Are you vowing to stay in this race? Is that your message?

HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are reassessing, reevaluating.

ACOSTA: But are you staying in the race?

CAIN: We are reevaluating and reassessing.

How are you?

ACOSTA: How soon until we have a final answer on your future plans?

CAIN: We will be making a decision in the next several days.


COOPER: Well, late today, Cain appeared on FOX News. We should point out here that he routinely refuses to come on this program. We asked again today and his campaign said he was unavailable all week. Somehow, he did find time to sit down with FOX's Neil Cavuto.


NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS: So, I don't want to over-belabor this, Herman. You are answering these questions directly.

But, on Ginger White, why would she say -- she has known you 13 years, and you say a non-amorous relationship. Why would she say out of the blue, he is not fit to be president?

CAIN: Neil, I have no idea, unless the people who I believe are putting her up to this, maybe that was one of the lines that she was supposed to use. I -- Neil, I have no idea.


COOPER: Herman Cain saying he believes Ginger White was put up to it. But when he's asked who put her up to it, take a look.


CAIN: We have no idea who it is.

But I just happen to know that the reason that I was trying to help her as a friend financially, because she was in some deep financial problems, about to not even be able to pay her rent. So, I don't know who is behind it, but -- at this point, but we are going to try to figure out as much as we can, because this is a direct character assassination.


COOPER: So he can't say who's pressuring Ginger White to bad mouth him if in fact that's what she's doing. But he does have a theory that covers the whole string of recent allegations against him.


CAVUTO: You are the only one who seems to gather or collect -- again, accurate or no -- these type of charges, whether it is harassment, whether it is womanizing, whether it is inappropriate relationships. It all might not be anything, like you say, but they do tend to pile up around you.

Why is that?

CAIN: Well, Neil, here again, I don't have an answer as to why that is the case.

But I can only conjecture that maybe I am the Democrats' worst nightmare if I win the nomination. And as long as I was still low in the polls relative to the Republican nomination, this stuff didn't come out. It was only after I got in the top tier, and, lo and behold, there it came.


COOPER: Herman Cain tonight. Again, we invited him on this program. Invitation remains open. He's always welcome.

His accuser, meantime, also has yet to present evidence to back up her claims of a 13-year affair, and not just a long standing platonic friendship as Herman Cain is claiming. Today in "Good Morning America" she says she didn't save any notes or receipts during the alleged affair because she never planned to go public. White did however describe a trip she says they took together.


GINGER WHITE, ALLEGES 13-YEAR AFFAIR WITH HERMAN CAIN: It was a very casual affair that Herman flew me to -- on several trips. I went on several trips with Herman. We -- one particular trip was the Mike Tyson-Holyfield fight in Las Vegas. You know. I can't make this stuff up.


COOPER: Well, that remains to be seen. Because as we mentioned she's offered no hard evidence to support that or her other claims. The only verifiable fact tonight, fair or not, is just how deeply troubled the Cain campaign seems to be.

Joining us now is Ari Fleischer, White House spokesman during the George W. Bush administration. You can follow him on Twitter @AriFleischer. Also Democratic strategist and Obama 2012 pollster Cornell Belcher.

Ari, is the Cain campaign getting to the point where it could do some damage to your party?

ARI FLEISCHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, no. I mean, to the party? Did Bill Clinton's affairs do damage to the Democratic Party? Did what John Edwards do, do damage to the Democratic Party?

These things will come individual damage. But the broader point here, Anderson, is -- and I say this as somebody who has been a fan of Herman Cain and who liked him, but at the same time I have been saying for months, Herman Cain is not ready for the oval office. That's the more fundamental issues.

None of us know what the truth of this he says-she says that are piling up is, but what we do know is that Herman Cain on policy is not prepared to be president of the United States. I have been saying that for months. So in so many ways this is doesn't matter except for where will the Cain votes go if he does drop out. That matters a lot.

COOPER: Cornell, do you believe he's doing damage to the other Republicans in the race?

CORNELL BELCHER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I mean, I will say a couple of things. One is the whole idea that nothing was going on it seems to be -- is a stretch. I mean, every guy in America knows if you're texting and calling a woman at 4: 00 in the morning that's not about finances. That's a booty call. So he's not passing the credibility test there.

COOPER: Stop using the tough terms.


BELCHER: And -- well, the other thing is, you know, I will push back on my friend Ari a little bit here. I think what the Bill Clinton-Monica Lewinsky scandal actually did do a lot of damage to the Democratic brand. And look, and I don't give Michael Steele a lot of credit for anything, but I think Michael still is right on this one.

All this affects -- all this attention on Herman Cain is taking away from what the Republicans want to be talking about and talking away from who right now their two top -- two top candidates. Because right now on Anderson Cooper's show at the top of the hour we're talking about Herman Cain and that cannot help the Republican Party.

COOPER: Does it hurt one candidate more or does it help any of the Republican candidates, Cornell, do you think?

BELCHER: I do think it -- look, I think -- I think in an interesting way maybe irony is not the word for this but Newt Gingrich is benefiting from a man having an affair here. Absolutely. Because look, even at 17 or 16 percent support which Herman Cain has dropped down to, he's still got a base of those anti-Mitt Romney supporters.

And if -- and if Newt Gingrich can sort of begin to consolidate that anti-Mitt Romney base of voters out there, it becomes a real problem. I think that's why you see Mitt begin to sort of pivot and turn his attacks frontally on Newt Gingrich in the way that he didn't attack Perry or Bachmann or even Cain when -- early on when they rose in the polls.

COOPER: Ari, do you agree with that?


COOPER: I mean, you saw that CNN poll that did seem to indicate that Newt Gingrich benefits the most from Cain's supporters.

FLEISCHER: Well, that's right, Anderson. And that's frankly to me the only issue that really matters now. And if Herman Cain stays in the race, that's good news for Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney, if he's going to do well in Iowa, he needs a multiple field that divides so he can conquer it.

The fewer opponents Mitt Romney has in Iowa, the harder it will be for him to have any kind of plurality of a decent size showing that gives him a boost coming out of Iowa. So he needs Herman Cain to stay in this race. If Herman Cain were to drop out, the fewer opponents for Romney in Iowa, the harder it's going to be for Romney to come out of Iowa, the boost that he's looking for to take him through New Hampshire and carry him forward.

That's the real play here. That's what's at stake politically speaking.

COOPER: Cornell, how significant do you think it is that Romney is now coming out the past day or so slamming Gingrich? BELCHER: I think -- you know, as a pollster, I can smell another pollster's work. I mean, look, clearly they have done some research and says that Newt is a threat to them in a way that -- and that's going to be real to them in a way that Perry wasn't.

And now they're sort of beginning to set the contrast with him. And I think they start with the insider-outsider contrast. But I have got a feeling that they're not going to end with that. And the campaign, you start throwing out contrasts and start working with contrast if you think they're going to work until you get to one that works.

I got a feeling on the paid communication side they're going to start with this insider-outside contrast but in the end I would not be at all surprised that when it comes down to paid communication when the campaign really starts, when they're paying for communication, when they're paying for ads, and when they're paying for under-the- radar stuff like mail and robocalls, they're going to hit Newt Gingrich on character and draw a strong character contrast between Mitt Romney, with a picture of his family, faithful family man, vs. Newt Gingrich and what those conservative voters that Ari knows better than I do, that can be a very powerful contrast.

COOPER: Ari, I saw you shaking your head.

FLEISCHER: Yes. I think the stronger play for Mitt Romney is electability issue. What Republicans want more than anything else is to defeat Obama. And they're willing to accept flaws in candidates. In many ways Mitt Romney is everybody's plan B. Nobody really likes him, not enough people really like him to excite the Republican Party.

But what excites us is the prospect of defeating Barack Obama. And to the degree that Romney is stronger positioned to do that than Gingrich, that's going to play an awful big role in the minds of a lot of Republicans as they go to vote. That can make up --

COOPER: And Ari --

FLEISCHER: -- for a lot of Romney's weaknesses.

COOPER: Ari, do you think he's stronger positioned to beat -- to beat Obama?

FLEISCHER: Well, he is today. He is right now and he has been for months. Newt's task is to really pick up his numbers so people who say, you know what? I prefer Newt to Romney. But I don't think Newt can win. Newt's got to start demonstrating that he can beat Barack Obama in head-to-heads, especially in the battleground states.

Right now, Mitt Romney has about a five- to 10-point edge over Newt Gingrich in electability over Obama in many of those battleground states. Big task ahead for Newt to address that shortfall.

COOPER: It's getting interesting.

Cornell Belcher, Ari Fleischer, guys, thanks very much. Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. Follow us on Google. You can add us to your circles. Follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. I will be tweeting tonight.

Up next, President Obama accused of mixing the business of governing with the business of campaigning, and you may be paying for most of it. We're going to ask the president's spokesman how he accounts for all the travel, and also show you why it's been business for usual for years -- "Keeping Them Honest" tonight.

Later, major new developments to Penn State sex abuse scandal. The first lawsuit now has been filed against Jerry Sandusky and Penn State. The plaintiff is a new accuser not mentioned in the grand jury report. Details ahead.


COOPER: "Keeping Them Honest" now. President Obama's getting heat for racking up frequent flyer miles on Air Force One at your expense to boost his reelection chances. That's the accusation.

In a moment, you'll hear the rebuttal from White House spokesman Jay Carney.

President Obama is in New York tonight for a string of campaign fund-raisers off limits to the general public. But before Air Force One touched down tonight at Kennedy and took off from Wilkes- Barre/Scranton International Airport in eastern Pennsylvania where Mr. Obama spoke about the economy and his jobs plan at a local high school.

He talked about policy, about his jobs plan. But critics say that both legs of this trip, New York and Scranton are more about politics than policy. The president, they say, has checked out of the White House and stepped on the campaign trail.

Here's how Speaker Boehner who began leveling this kind of charges last month.


REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Nothing has disappointed me more than what's happened over the last five weeks. To watch the president of the United States give up on governing, give up on leading, and spend full time campaigning.


COOPER: It is debatable but it's whether a trip to push for a jobs plan adds up to a campaign stop, that's the question, if it takes place in a battleground state like Pennsylvania.

What's not debatable is this. President Obama has been spending an awful lot of time on the road in states that are crucial in his reelection.



Hello, Cincinnati.

It is good to be in Orlando.

It is great to be back in Pittsburgh.

It is great to be back in the Motor City.

It is good to be back in Asheville, North Carolina.

It is great to be here in North Carolina.

It is great to be in Virginia.

Great to be in the Philly area.

Hello, New Hampshire.

It is good to be back in Scranton.


COOPER: Well, that's just a sample. According to "The Wall Street Journal," Mr. Obama has made 56 visits to battleground states this year. That breaks George W. Bush's record of 49 events in 2003, and Bill Clinton's 40 in 1995. Both sides, of course, do it. And when they're traveling, you're paying.

It's traditionally up to the White House to decide which events or campaign stops and which aren't. But according to a 2006 report prepared for Democrats on the House Committee on Government Reform, taxpayers put most of the bill in either case. The report covered presidential and vice presidential travel leading up to the 2002 midterm elections.

The findings., $6.5 million in flight expenses in which political campaigns only reimburse $198,000. That is just 3 percent. The report went on to say that flight expenses are just a fraction of what it costs and what you pay to put the president on the road. The bottom line, quote, the president and vice president can legally participate in campaign and fund-raising events for candidates but when they do so, the taxpayer bears most of the cost.

Now that a democratic report complaining about then Republican trips. Today, well, the tables are turned. But in many cases you are still picking up the tab.

The White House, though, is pushing back hard on this one.


COOPER: And joining me now White House spokesman Jay Carney. Jay, no one is saying the president of the United States shouldn't go out and speak to the American people. Is it just coincidence, tough, that so many of his travels take him to states that are considered in play for the next election? I mean, it can't be a coincidence.

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, Anderson, I would simply point out that so many of the states that the president is -- the president travels to are considered in play next year because we live in a country that's closely divided politically and this president, when he ran for office the first time in 2008, put a lot of states that have previously not been considered to be in play like he is going to battleground states?

I will point out that so many of the states that president's traveled to are considered in play next year because we live in a country that's closely divided politically and this president, when he ran for office the first time in 2008, put a lot of states that had previously not been considered to be in play like Virginia and North Carolina, Indiana and others into play and won them. So what I have said from this podium in the past is that if this president were unable to travel to states considered in play politically as president of the United States on official business, he would have to rule out travel to a great portion of the country. And we're not going to do that.

Every president, Republican or Democrat, ought to be able to travel around the country to states that are considered blue, red and purple to talk about his agenda or her agenda. And that's what this president is doing.

COOPER: But you can't deny, though, that politics does play a role somewhere in the decision of where to go for the president. I mean, in terms of campaigning and --

CARNEY: Well, look, I think you have to define politics. It depends on what you mean by politics. The president made a speech today that's about politics in the sense that when he spoke at high school in Scranton, Pennsylvania, he called on Congress to do the right thing and pass a payroll tax cut -- extension and expansion for 160 million working Americans.

Now that's a political thing because this is a political process here. We have both parties in Congress. Republicans have a point of view about payroll tax cut. The president has a point of view and he's urging Congress to act. But this all stems from a "Wall Street Journal" article that falls -- that, you know, misleadingly asserted that President Obama has traveled more to so-called battleground states than his two predecessors.

But it included in that total travel to Virginia for President Obama. But not for President George W. Bush.


COOPER: You're saying because there's more battleground -- (CROSSTALK)

COOPER: More states are in play this time, you're saying.

CARNEY: More states in play, but also because every president travels to Virginia. It's 10 minutes from the oval office.

COOPER: There are a lot of Republicans --

CARNEY: What I'm saying is that President Obama could be ahead by 20 points in Virginia and he would still go to Virginia because it's nearby and the presidents want to get out of Washington. Virginia is the closest place they can go and Maryland, of course.

COOPER: You know the criticism especially being labeled -- being given Republicans right now is the president is spending too much time essentially on the road campaigning. Tonight he's at three top dollar fund-raisers here in New York after spending the day in Pennsylvania which, as you said, promoting an extension to the payroll tax cut. Is the trip to New York being paid for with public funds or is that --

CARNEY: Everything -- when we -- when this president travels for political events, like the campaign events he has in New York, those are paid for appropriately by out of DNC or campaign funds. I mean, I -- you know -- but the trip he made to Scranton, Pennsylvania prior to going to New York was an official event.

And this president has a responsibility to travel around the country to advance his agenda. And is he campaigning? Yes. He's campaigning for the American Jobs Act. To pass the tax cut that would benefit 160 million Americans.

COOPER: The Congressional Research Service says that when a trip is for campaign purposes, the federal government is only reimbursed for how much a typical commercial airline ticket would cost. It has made I think the cost for an hour of Air Force One is $58,000. So that the public really does end up paying, though, a lot of the bill of trips that are considered political.

CARNEY: Anderson, I'm not sure where you're going with this. I mean, by comparison to any other president, this president operates absolutely by the book and according to the rules.

He is president 24 hours a day, seven days a week. When he travels, he has to travel with the compliment of advisers including on national security matters and others that always have to be with him, whether it's political travel or official travel. And that is part of the reality of being president. But you can be sure that we do this absolutely by the book.

COOPER: So do those Republicans who were saying that the president is spending too much time in campaign mode you say --

CARNEY: Again, never -- if you take out Virginia which is across the river and every president travels to in abundance, his immediate predecessor actually traveled more frequently to so-called battleground states than President Obama and I don't remember Republicans complaining about that.

COOPER: Jay Carney.

Appreciate your time, Jay. Thank you.

CARNEY: Thank you.


COOPER: Well, still ahead, if you have money in the stock market, chances are you maybe made some money today. The Dow soared 500 points. But is this big gain actually bad news for global markets? We'll talk about that ahead.

Also in "Crime & Punishment" tonight, new developments in the Penn State sex child scandal. Today a new accuser filed a lawsuit against former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky and his child sexual abuse scandal. We have the details, plus a new interview with Sandusky's attorney, coming up.


COOPER: In tonight's "News and Business Bulletin," a surge on Wall Street.

The Dow ended the day up 490 points, the largest gain this year. The Dow, Nasdaq and S&P all were up more than 4 percent. The Wall Street rally happened after the Fed announced it's going to work with other central banks, including Europe and Canada, to try to help shore up the global economy by making it cheaper for banks around the world to borrow U.S. dollars.

Christine Romans joins us now trying to help us explain.

So why did the Fed do this?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Because we were seeing some dangerous signs in global markets that it was getting more difficult and more expensive for banks to borrow money from each other overnight, to borrow dollars. This is how the world does business, in dollars. And overnight lending is something that is basically the life blood of the financial system, Anderson.

And we were seeing, you know, the arteries getting clogged. And it was starting to look like it did back in late 2008. And that was really scary. So in the absence of any kind of political movement in Europe and the U.S., you had central banks coming in with the big guns and saying we're going to keep the money flowing.

COOPER: How much of this these days is about what's happening in Europe?

ROMANS: It's all about Europe right now.

COOPER: It is? ROMANS: Absolutely. And there were so many signs of concern among those European banks. I mean, this is such an important moment, a dramatic moment. I mean, people are saying that the Eurozone is unraveling right before our eyes.

COOPER: Right.

ROMANS: It's the biggest trading zone for the U.S. The United States cannot avoid another very dangerous recession if you see a very big pull back or -- you know an implosion of the Eurozone. I mean, we just -- we would not get by unscathed. So they want to keep this thing afloat.

COOPER: And I mean, the markets reacted well which obviously people are happy about, you know, in the short term. What about long- term investors?

ROMANS: That's a really good point. Because you saw people just going crazy today saying wow, this is so great. This is so great. And the big point here is that this is still a defensive move. This is still a central bank saying we're at the precipice here and we're going to make sure we don't go over the edge. We're still at the edge, though.

COOPER: Right.

ROMANS: In terms of Europe. So that's an important thing to keep in mind here. You've only have 10 days or so for the Eurozone and for leaders there to kind of figure out what they're going to do, how they're going to get these 17 -- basically 17 extended family members who are all sharing the same checking account, as one economist told me. I mean, think about that.

I mean, that's a little complicated.

COOPER: Right.

ROMANS: Especially when some people are putting more money into the bank account, others are taking out more. That's what --


COOPER: Also, the decision-making process for the Eurozone is very laborious. I mean, it's very difficult.

ROMANS: Yes. And to try to fix it, you have all these treaties between different countries.

COOPER: Right.

ROMANS: That you have to fix and not very much time to do it. they have been behind the curve for a very long time. And that's what the Fed, the central bank, even China actually loosening some of its lending restrictions at the very same time, kind of a whole world getting together, Anderson, to say we're going to keep the blood flowing so that there is more time to get this all sorted out. But no one wants to go back to the kind of credit conditions we had in 2008.

COOPER: Right.

ROMANS: And that's what the worry was.

COOPER: Wow. Before the Lehman collapse.



ROMANS: I mean, that was ugly. I mean, that meant millions of jobs lost.


ROMANS: You know, factories closed. It was just -- I mean, people right now are still suffering from what happened back then. So the central banks, Ben Bernanke, the ECB, even China, all of them stepping up and saying, we're going to keep the money flowing so that we don't face that right now.

COOPER: Right.

ROMANS: And that's why markets were so happy because they said, look, policy makers are going to make sure -- not politicians.

COOPER: Right.

ROMANS: But central bankers are going to make sure the worst doesn't happen right here.

COOPER: All right. Christine Romans, appreciate it. Thank you.


COOPER: A lot more we're following tonight.

Susan Hendricks has a "360 Bulletin" -- Susan.


Police now believe 10 sets of human remains found along a desolate stretch of a Long Island beach since last December are linked to one serial killer. We're following that.

Also, a 360 follow -- four members of a breakaway Amish group charged with hate crimes were arraigned in federal court today in Youngstown, Ohio. According to "The Tribune Chronicle," the judge ordered the men to remain in prison saying they're a danger to the Amish community. The men are accused of shaving the beards of people who refuse to follow their leader, Samuel Mullet Sr. Three other defendants will be in court on Friday.

Ninety-three-year-old evangelist Billy Graham is hospitalized tonight in Asheville, North Carolina, for what officials say is -- quote -- "evaluation and treatment of his lungs."

Also, you to see this -- a tough day for Santa at a Palm Beach Florida mall. This past weekend, he tried to make a grand entrance by rappelling into the crowd. It didn't work. His beard got stuck. The kids were down below. He couldn't move.

It's safe to say this is no jolly Saint Nick. He ended up tearing off his beard and hat, eventually made it to the ground.

By the way, as this was happening, the announcer was singing Christmas carols, doing all that she could.

That is the latest -- Anderson, back to you.

COOPER: "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" is ahead at 11:00. Let's check in with Erin.

What's up?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: All right, well, Anderson, it was a huge day in the markets today, 500 points. That is huge, the best in more than 2.5 years. Why and can it last? We could really be at a turning point for the U.S. economy. We're going to talk about that.

Plus, Jerry Sandusky -- the first civil against him. A man known as John Doe, we're going to talk to his lawyer and find out exactly what happened, what Jerry Sandusky allegedly did to him, as we talk about that case.

And then: What candidate rips the cheese off their pizza, Anderson? And what candidate made a choice between Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Aniston? Oh, yes, and what was that choice? We will -- we will get to the bottom of that

COOPER: I'm intrigued.


COOPER: All right. Erin, thanks.

BURNETT: All right.

COOPER: Look forward to it.

Coming up, the first lawsuit stemming from the Penn State child sex abuse scandal has been filed. It accuses former defensive football coach Jerry Sandusky of sexually abusing a boy more than 100 times and threatening to harm him and his family if he told. Sandusky's attorney speaking out again tonight.

Also, fast-moving developments in the sex abuse scandal at Syracuse University. New details tonight about that taped phone conversation between one of Bernie Fine's accusers and the former coach's wife. Details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Tonight the child sex abuse scandal that has shaken Penn State University brought former students and school teachers -- school leaders together at a town-hall forum held on campus, a chance to talk candidly and ask questions.

Hours earlier the first lawsuit was filed against former defensive football coach Jerry Sandusky, who is charged with sexually abusing eight boys, charges he denies. Penn State's also named in the lawsuit, along with the charity Sandusky founded for underprivileged kids.

Now, the suit was filed on behalf of someone listed as John Doe. The 29-year-old man, who says he was 10 years old when he first met Sandusky. And this man is a new accuser, not mentioned, actually, in that grand jury report. His attorneys claim Sandusky sexually abused their client more than 100 times and threatened to harm him and his family if he told anyone.

As for Sandusky, his attorney says he's working with a private investigator to prove his innocence. In an interview today with CNN contributor Sara Ganim, Amendola said he's talked to one of the alleged victims described in that extremely graphic grand jury report that led to Sandusky's arrest. Listen.


JOE AMENDOLA, ATTORNEY FOR SANDUSKY: What I'm saying is that the young man was in my office several weeks ago following the initiation of the charges against Jerry, and he sat here with his mother and his brother and said that he was not a victim, that he was the young man, he believed, in the shower the night that McQueary said that he went in and saw Jerry engaging in some sort of sexual act. The young man said that he was the boy in the shower, as far as he knew, but he was not involved in any sexual acts with Jerry.


COOPER: Sara Ganim, who is also a reporter at the "Patriot- News," joins me now.

Sara, there was a new lawsuit filed today from this victim, not part of the grand jury. What have you learned about -- about the victim, about the lawsuits?

SARA GANIM, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, what we know is he's about 29 years old. He -- he's coming forward alleging 100 -- that he was sexually abused by Jerry Sandusky more than 100 times, but he's not one of those eight victims outlined in that grand jury presentment.

So what we believe from the attorney general's office ongoing investigation is that he might be talking to police at this point. But so far, he is not -- he is not one of the eight victims with charges against Jerry Sandusky. Only -- only the civil suit is being brought forward.

COOPER: Has the Second Mile responded? Has the Second Mile group responded to the lawsuit?

GANIM: The Second Mile did respond, and they're saying only that they're going to respond appropriately to any lawsuit, any litigation that's brought against them and that they -- their thoughts remain with the victims and their families. But they're not specifically responding to the claims in that lawsuit, which are that they should have known that they should have done something.

And the same thing with Penn State, that Penn State, being Jerry Sandusky's employer, should have done something to -- to prevent him from having alone time with children.

COOPER: I want to play some more of your interview with Jerry Sandusky's attorney today. The attorney claims that the alleged victim told him nothing -- nothing sexual happened. Let's watch.


AMENDOLA: He said he had turned all the shower faucets on. As you know, they're big showers in Penn State -- Penn State football complex. He turned all the shower heads on, and water was running on the floor. He said he was surfing. He'd run from one end to the other and slide across the shower floor, and he said nothing sexual occurred.


COOPER: I mean, this is obviously in complete contradiction to what this Coach McQueary, who was then a graduate assistant, says he saw and has testified to seeing. What does -- what does the attorney say the victim told the attorney about what Coach McQueary testified he saw?

GANIM: Well, contrary to what the grant jury presentment said, which is that Coach McQueary was seen by Sandusky and by the boy, according to Joe Amendola, the boy who says he's victim -- now the man -- who says he's victim 2 says that he didn't know there was a witness to anything that was going on in that shower at the time.

But two days later, something happened that made that instance memorable, and that was that Jerry Sandusky called him up and said, "Hey, listen, Penn State officials say that somebody felt uncomfortable about what was going on in that shower, you know, two days ago, and I gave them your name. I gave them your number. And they might be calling to ask you if something happened. Just tell them what happened."

And you know from the grand jury presentment, we know that it's been alleged that no one from Penn State ever reached out to that child. So it's very interesting that Joe Amendola is saying that he -- that Penn State officials did know who that boy was, they knew his identity and didn't contact him.

COOPER: All right. Sara Ganim, appreciate it. Thanks very much.

I want to bring in our legal panel: criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos; senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Mark, I want to play another clip from the interview that reporter Sara Ganim did with Sandusky's attorney today. Take a look.


GANIM: What is the point where you say, "Maybe we should talk about a plea deal"? And are you already having those conversations with the A.G.'s office?

AMENDOLA: No, we haven't. And as a matter of fact, even from your experience, people who maintain their innocence sometimes plead guilty just because of the overwhelming evidence against them. And there have been many people who had gone to trial who were convicted of serious crimes, including homicides, and executed, and it later turned out that they were innocent. So there's a lot of reasons why people decide to do certain things. But at this point, Jerry has maintained his innocence in regard to the allegations he knows about.


COOPER: What do you make of that answer? I mean, does it sound like they're considering a plea deal, and he's sort of setting the table for that? Or was he just sort of hypothetically talking?

MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sounds like the door is open. I don't know how else to put it. I mean, it's a true statement. People all the time take plea deals because it's in their best interests. There's a U.S. Supreme Court case that's right on point, California case that's right on point, that you can take a plea deal.

And, yes, it's true, people go to trial, get convicted unjustly. There's discussion about whether or not people have been executed because of that. All of that is accurate. Why do you put that out there? It sounds to me like you're telegraphing the fact that the door's open, and there's some communication going on.

COOPER: Jeff, do you agree with that?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I agree, though it's important to remember, we're really early in this process.

COOPER: Right.

TOOBIN: I mean, there is an investigation that's very much ongoing. When you have a big case like this, the first indictment is almost always superceded by further indictments that are either broader, as is usually the case, or narrower. So I just think it's premature at this point.

COOPER: But if what this attorney, Amendola, is saying is true about what this alleged victim has told him or told Sandusky or is willing to say to authorities, it completely contradicts what is in a grand jury report, what McQueary has told the grand jury. TOOBIN: It does. And it's possible that there's simply contradictory evidence out in the world. It's possible that witnesses told two different stories. But this is what trial prep is all about, learning what the witnesses say and see how strong your case is. It's only at that point you decide whether a plea is really the right thing to do, after you've looked at the evidence.

COOPER: Mark, this lawsuit by this new victim, who has -- or alleged victim who's come forward names the university everybody also Sandusky, also the charity. How does that work? Would they all face trial together? I mean, how would -- would they merge some sort of their defense? In a civil suit?

GERAGOS: It's interesting. It's interesting how those are usually handled. If somebody is named as a defendant -- and here you've got three defendants -- and one of them is facing criminal prosecution or investigation, they can move to have the civil suit stayed, which means, "Hey, judge, we don't want to go forward with this right now. Put it aside until we finish with the criminal."

That -- whether the judge does that for one defendant, all defendants, or whether the judge says, "No, you can have what's called third party discovery," meaning that they can take the deposition of McQueary, that's really up in the air. Judges craft that all the time. And it's actually a very common issue, any time you have these kinds of investigations where you're got the civil lawsuits that are getting in the middle of there.

And remember, in this case, you've got so many agencies investigating or, at least kind of like moths to a flame here, to throw civil lawsuits into it, as well, really kind of mucks up the whole thing.

COOPER: Mark, is there -- is there a statute of limitations in a civil case like this?

GERAGOS: Sure. Yes, there absolutely is a statute of limitations, and I'll tell you. The criminal case, I think, is going to have to deal with some of these statute of limitations issues, although it's more expansive or it can be read more expansively, although the U.S. Supreme Court has weighed in, at least on the California statute that has applicability nationally that you can't revive a case after the fact, if it's already -- if the statute's already run and the crime can't be prosecuted.

TOOBIN: Pennsylvania just changed its law in 2002 to expand the statute of limitations for minors in sexual abuse cases until they are 30 years old. John Doe was 29. Did you notice that in that story? It's very significant that he's 29, because by filing it now, he gets in under the statute of limitations. If he'd waited a few months longer, he might not.

COOPER: The other thing, though, that's interesting, Jeff, that the attorney, Amendola, is saying is that four of these alleged victims outlined in the report have had in recent years congenial -- what he described as congenial relationships with Sandusky, even going to his home and visiting his wife.

TOOBIN: That may be significant. It may be evidence that no abuse took place. There is also a pattern in sexual abuse cases of people having continuing relationships. These are very weird and unfortunate and difficult relationships. But that alone doesn't prove that sexual abuse did not take place.

COOPER: Mark Geragos, Jeff Toobin, thanks very much. Interesting discussion.

Up next, new developments in the Syracuse sex abuse case. We're learning more about the recorded phone call between Bernie Fine's wife, one of his accusers, and the role a local newspaper played in setting that up. We'll be right back.


COOPER: "Crime & Punishment," like Penn State, Syracuse University is dealing with disturbing allegations of a sex abuse scandal, allegations against former associate men's basketball coach, Bernie Fine, who was fired on Sunday, after a third accuser came forward and ESPN and a local newspaper reported on a taped conversation between Fine's wife and his first accuser.

Fine has not been charged with any crimes, and he emphatically maintains he's innocent. In a "360" exclusive interview with Gary Tuchman, his second accuser, Mike Lang, described in detail last night on camera what he says Fine did to him when he was just a teenager.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When did you realize that there was something wrong with what he was doing? What did he do to you?

MIKE LANG, ACCUSER OF BERNIE FINE: He touched -- he kept touching me.

TUCHMAN: Where, though? Where did he touch you?

LANG: In my leg and my penis.

TUCHMAN: And did you say something to him?

LANG: Yes, I said, "Bernie, please stop this, because I'm not that kind. And I won't tolerate it. If you don't want me to come over here no more, I won't come over here. But if you keep doing it, I'm not going to come over here."


COOPER: Well, now Lang says he was sickened when he heard about the Penn State sex abuse charges, and that's why he came forward after all these years. But despite his accusations against Fine, Lang is a big Syracuse fan and thinks head basketball coach Jim Boeheim should keep his job.

Last night Boeheim defended standing up for his former assistant when the accusations first came out.


JIM BOEHEIM, MEN'S BASKETBALL COACH, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: I supported a friend. That's what I thought I did. I'm proud that I did.


COOPER: Well, Mike Lang's stepbrother, Bobby Davis, was the first accuser to come forward to police back in 2002. They refused to investigate because the statute of limitations expired. Davis is the one who taped that phone conversation that he had with Fine's wife, Laurie. As mentioned, ESPN released it this past weekend. Here's some of that.


LAURIE FINE, WIFE OF BERNIE FINE: Right, right, he just has a nasty attitude, because he didn't get his money, nor did he get what he wanted. He didn't get...

BOBBY DAVIS, ACCUSER OF BERNIE FINE: It's not about the money.

FINE: It's about the (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I know that. So you're -- I'm just telling you for your own good, you're better off just staying away from him.


COOPER: Well, tonight we're learning more about that taped phone call and how the local newspaper, the "Post-Standard," had a hand in getting it made. Gary Tuchman joins me now.

So Gary, what do we know?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we know a lot more tonight about the secret audiotape of Bernie Fine's wife, Laurie. What we know is this. The local newspaper here in Syracuse is telling us tonight that it knew in advance that accuser Bobby Davis was going to secretly record the conversation.

Does that mean it was the newspaper's idea? Well, we can't tell you that. The "Syracuse Post-Standard" is not commenting to us on the record.

What they are saying is a statement, a printed statement that has come out. And it says this. "After discussions with our reporter and with our knowledge, Bobby Davis secretly recorded a phone conversation with Laurie Fine on October 8, 2002. Our understanding is that it was legal under the laws of Utah and New York for someone in one of those states to record a phone conversation with someone in the other state without informing the second party."

Now, Davis was in Utah at the time. It sounds like the paper was giving a little legal advice about placing the call. At this point, the newspaper is telling us that it would have done the story if it could have supported Laurie Davis saying this incident happened, but they did not hear it directly from Laurie Davis. Therefore, they waited to see what was on the phone call, and they ended up not doing the story -- Anderson.

COOPER: So if the paper was seemingly involved in the recording the phone call, giving advice about it, did they say why they didn't publish the story after the tape clearly raised a lot of eyebrows or questions?

TUCHMAN: Yes, well after listening to the tape, the paper decided it was too vague and ambiguous, and it wasn't good enough to support a story, so the paper kept the tape quiet for over nine years, until now. And police and the district attorney said they knew nothing about the tape all of these years.

But when the tape was made public, there were several passages that did not seem ambiguous at all to many people who listened to it, including this passage.


FINE: He wants you to grab him? Or (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him?

DAVIS: No, he's -- he's trying to make me -- no, he'd try to make me grab him. I mean, he's like -- but at first he would grab me and start, you know, touching me.

FINE: But you never had any oral sex with him?



DAVIS: He -- I think he would want to but...

FINE: Of course he would. Why wouldn't he?


TUCHMAN: Now, the newspaper stresses that ESPN made the decision not to release the tape also, and that's true. But why didn't either organization at least talk to authorities about the tape?

The paper stresses police didn't take the investigation seriously in 2002 and that they did not feel comfortable handing over to police materials. That's what they said. There are a lot of questions we have for the newspaper, which got this tape before anybody else. But once again, they have made the decision not to talk to us about that -- Anderson.

COOPER: Gary, you know, I'm just wondering. Whatever happened to the statement that we were expecting from Laurie Fine about the audiotape? TUCHMAN: Well, that was very interesting. Two days ago we heard from the nephew of Laurie Fine that she was going to make a statement, a written statement saying that that audio statement was misinterpreted. We didn't get a statement Monday. We actually went to her door and tried to ask her personally if she had a statement to make. It was a very short conversation, only like 30 seconds. What was notable about the conversation is that she did not say anything about any statements that she wasn't going to make it.

Back to you.

COOPER: Something completely different coming up next. Last night we told you about the guy who makes the homemade "Eat More Kale" T-shirts. Chick -- Chik-Fil-A is trying to shut him down. Tonight's "RidicuList" is related to that but it's just a little bit closer to home. Let's just say it's not easy being leafy green. That's next.


COOPER: Time now for "The RidicuList." And I guess tonight I have to add myself because of something I said on last night's "RidicuList."

Last night we told you about how the multibillion-dollar fast food chain Chick-Fil-A is going after a guy in Vermont who sells hand- printed T-shirts he makes in his garage, some emblazoned with the slogan "Eat More Kale." Chick-Fil-A apparently thinks that's too similar to its "Eat Mor Chikin" slogan, and that it will confuse customers, which led to this from last night's "RidicuList."


COOPER: Just for the record, this is a Chick-Fil-A chicken sandwich, and this is kale. Now I don't know. You can make the call. I don't know what kale is, frankly.


COOPER: All right. So we got a ton of comments on Facebook, on Twitter about this. People can't seem to believe that I don't know what kale is. They're shocked. They're shocked, outraged, I tell you. They use a lot of question marks and exclamation points.

Well, the 360 staff went to great lengths today to help me out, and by that I mean one person ran down to a Whole Foods in the building, so now I know this is kale. It's green. It's leafy. Supposed to be really good for you. And that pretty much means I'm not going to like it, as I have a palate very similar to a 4-year-old child.

It's not that I'm opposed to eating healthy. It's just need I remind you of what happened when I tried spinach for the first time a couple weeks ago on my daytime talk show, "Anderson"? Take a look.


COOPER: I'll try -- well, spinach, all right. All right.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need a sip? A drink of water?

COOPER: OK. That's gross. It's all like slithery. What is on that?


COOPER: So in my defense, I'm not the only one who isn't very adventurous when it comes to eating leafy greens. Take for instance Selena Gomez, singer/actor, Justin Bieber's main squeeze. Do the kids still say "main squeeze"? Anyway -- no? No.

Well, look what happened when Ryan Seacrest got her to try some kale. It was in some kind of juice drink that he likes.


RYAN SEACREST, RADIO HOST: This is collard greens and kale, broccoli, coconut water, and green tea.


SEACREST: Want some?

GOMEZ: I'm scared. Oh, my gosh!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want some water?

SEACREST: Do you like it?


GOMEZ: Why do you do that to yourself?


COOPER: All right. So it's me, someone named Selena Gomez. And I'm told we have one more kale-centered clip to show. Let's roll that.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't treat me like a dog eating kale chips. I don't even know what that is.


COOPER: All right. So to me, Selena Gomez, Kim Kardashian, and the guy who's dating the other Kardashian whose name I keep forgetting. You would think the Kardashians would be all about the kale. It's one of the few foods that start with the letter "K," after all. And yes, they did have kale chips at the Whole Foods, as well.

This is a kale chip. I'm going to try a kale chip. So, they say it's good to try new things, and now I can say for sure, kale is definitely a thing. So now let us move on, on "The RidicuList."

OK. That's it for us. Thanks for watching.