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Jerry Sandusky Gives Another Interview; Attorneys and a Body Language Expert Evaluate Sandusky Interview; Scourge Of Bullying; Cain Train Derailed

Aired December 5, 2011 - 21:00:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Here we go. Jerry Sandusky speaks out again. What does the accused child molester`s most recent interview tell us?

And bullying drives a young man to the brink of suicide, but his poignant plea for helps brings him back. I`m exploring the root causes of teenage heartache.

Plus, the Cain train derailed, Bill Clinton accuser Gennifer Flowers is right here talking about lawmakers and lust. So let`s get started.

Tonight a shocking new tell-all interview. Ex-Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky in the news again. He admits, quote, "If I`m not attracted to boys, that`s not the truth." Watch this, then we`ll talk.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Former coach Jerry Sandusky accused of abusing several boys he mentored prompted new outrage by telling his story to "The New York Times."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was Sandusky`s first long interview and he appeared to be nervous as he tried to defend an earlier response to the question, are you attracted to young boys?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The lawyers for the alleged victims are reacting harshly. They say that Sandusky is trying to manipulate public opinion, and it is not working.

HOWARD JANET, ATTORNEY FOR ALLEGED VICTIM: His answer was really no different, frankly, than the answer he gave before.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did former football coach Jerry Sandusky hurt his case even more by speaking out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is he doing this? He needs to counter with Sandusky`s own version so any potential juror gets both sides.


PINSKY: Sandusky spoke to a "New York Times" reporter, insisting he never sexually abused young boys, yet his shifty, childlike, uncomfortable behavior -- the most surprising part of the bizarre interview is his refusal to deny that he`s attracted to kids! Listen to this from "The New York Times."


JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER PENN STATE ASSISTANT COACH: If I say no, I`m not attracted to boys, that`s not the truth because I`m attracted to young people, boys, girls --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But not sexually.

SANDUSKY: Right. That`s what I was trying to say. I enjoy spending time with young people. I enjoy spending time with people. I mean, my two favorite groups are the elderly and the young.


PINSKY: Yes, people shake their head when they see that interview. His attorney, who was present off camera for the interview, has to step in and correct him. No, no, Jerry, you aren`t attracted to kids. You just enjoy spending time with young people.

Why would the attorney let him do this? Why would he agree to the interview? Straight to my guest, body language expert Mark Edgar Stephens is here in the studio along with an attorney Meg Strickler -- she was herself was a victim of sexual abuse -- and attorney Ben Andreozzi who represents three of Sandusky`s alleged victims. Ben, do the victims or their families have reaction to this new interview?

BEN ANDREOZZI, ATTORNEY FOR THREE ALLEGE SANDUSY VICTIMS: One thing I encourage the victims to do is try not to worry about what`s going on with the media and what Mr. Sandusky is doing publicly. I have spoken with them, and I think they`re appalled. They`re appalled by the fact that he can`t answer a simple question.

PINSKY: So, let me play devil`s advocate for just a quick second. And by no means do I want to stop the blame to victims. I just want to address the range of what people are thinking out there. What did people say that he seems not credible, but there`s no proof. What do the victims have to tell us? I`m sure they`ll tell us one day that they`ll stop these stories to not listen to the denials anymore I guess is the question I have.

ANDREOZZI: I think if you look at the sheer volume, the number of people coming forward, the fact that you have got so many allegations and they`re similar, there`s a pattern. In representing sexual assault victims, multiple victims in one case, you often see a pattern of the perpetrator. And Mr. Sandusky is fitting that bill to the tee.

PINSKY: Meg, let me go out to you. You`re both an attorney and a survivor. How do you react to his denials? Do you have any reactions to it?

MEG STRICKLER, ATTORNEY, SEXUAL ABUSE SURVIVOR: Absolutely. First off, it`s sickening. But he`s being a very normal pedophile here. He`s living in a very different world here where he`s saying, I didn`t do anything wrong. It`s their fault. They reached out to me. I didn`t do anything wrong. Showering with these boys is no big deal. That`s how he rationalizes his behavior, his awful behavior, that has completely victimized these poor people.

And he has no idea, for real, I don`t think in his mind in any way, shape or form does he understand what he`s saying makes no sense to a normal person here. He thinks this is all normal. Everybody does this. It`s very childlike the way he speaks, the way he talks, the way he acts. He doesn`t do eye contact. He does everything, it`s textbook.

It`s a little sad that his lawyer, now his criminal defense lawyer talking here, I cannot believe he`s out there talking to the media about his case. Silence is golden here, guys, and he`s not doing it. It`s very, very strange.

PINSKY: And Meg, let`s say -- I`m trying to work on the angles, let`s say he didn`t sexually abuse somebody. He showered naked with young boys that are not his and hugged them to the point that they felt uncomfortable. What if your son or you yourself as a young had an adult male authority figure doing that kind of thing to you? Wouldn`t that be traumatic enough?

STRICKLER: Understand my background, so obviously that happened and then some. So I did not find it particularly -- it`s wrong across the board. It`s a slippery slope. If you`re allowing somebody, and everybody is letting this elephant live in the Penn State world. If they are benign, nothing happened, it`s still a little bizarre. Why did this behavior happen if that`s just it? It`s still abuse.

Again, in the state of New York, state of California, state of Georgia, all the states I practice in, if you expose yourself naked in the shower, that in of itself by definition is still a crime. It still is. And he admitted to that.

PINSKY: Meg, that`s my point. Mark, let me go to you. Let`s say he was a young college student and hugged a girl at a fraternity party who didn`t want to be hugged or had groomed her into believing he was safe but went too far with it and, I don`t know, not even in the shower, but just crossing boundaries. That`s not OK.

MARK EDGAR STEPHENS, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Physically he`s crossing all sorts of boundaries.

PINSKY: Emotionally, too. They`re not his family.

STEPHENS: They`re not his family. And the thing is we see in the interviews Sandusky is approaching this like the little boy who got his hand caught in the cookie jar and says I didn`t really do anything wrong. I really wasn`t going to do anything wrong. Everything he`s done physically that he admitted, that alone is enough for us to say, wait a minute, this is wrong. You`ve crossed too many physical boundaries.

PINSKY: There was a moment in the interview both you and I noticed when he was talking about having been talked to by the athletic director. He looks to the ground. He doesn`t speak for a while. What did you see there.

STEPHENS: Every time we avert the head, we look down, especially when we`re being asked something, a lot of shame, a lot of embarrassment, a lot of guilt. All of his body language is consistent with deceptive body language, which is, it`s hard for him no admit he`s done something wrong. But obviously he knows. Otherwise he wouldn`t be looking down with guilt and shame.

PINSKY: And is there a defiance there, too?

STEPHENS: I`m not seeing so much defiance. You see defiance when you say "I did not sleep with that woman." This is like the little kid that`s really trying to do everything all around you except go for the truth. He literally does all this manipulative body language so you can`t see what`s really going on with them so you never get to the truth of it. And in the way he`s answering, even. He`s not answering anything directly. It`s like the little kid that`s going to dance all the way around so you don`t go right for him, because if you do that you`re going to see a cornered animal.

PINSKY: Interesting. Let`s listen one more time. I want you to pay attention to the body language. This is from "The New York Times." Watch.


JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER PENN STATE COACH: If I say no, I`m not attracted to boys, that`s not the truth because I`m attracted to young people, boys, girls --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But not sexually.

SANDUSKY: Right. That`s what I was trying to say. I enjoy spending time with young people. I enjoy spending time with people. I mean, my two favorite groups are the elderly and the young.


PINSKY: Now, I saw something a little bit interesting this time that I didn`t see last time we watched it. When he said I`m not -- what do you mean I`m not attracted to boys? He actually expressed a little disgust, like how could I not be attracted to boys? It`s disgusting to not be attracted to boys.

STEPHENS: That`s right. The disgust shows up. You see that little bit of --

PINSKY: It wasn`t disgust that people were abusing me of sexual abuse. It was disgust they would suggest I`m not attracted to boys.

STEPHENS: To us it looks so wrong, and yet he still has not come to grips with the fact that he`s looking like this in front of everybody and going, wait a minute, what`s wrong with this? What`s wrong with the attractions?

PINSKY: What`s wrong with these attorneys, like Conrad Murray`s attorney and his attorney lets him do these interviews?

Next Sandusky acknowledges sleeping alone in hotel rooms with kids and blowing on their bellies. Nice. Cute. He also admits giving gifts and cash to the kids. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, folks.

And later, sex and politics inseparable once again. We`ll speak to an alleged mistress of one of our most famous politicians. What does she have to say about the Herman Cain situation? Stay tuned.


PINSKY: And tonight, Jerry Sandusky opens up about having been accused of sexually abusing young boys. Although he says he did not molest children, he openly admits he showered naked with them, touched them, was alone with them in hotel rooms, gave them cash. Attorney Meg Strickler is here. Is this just making it easier for the prosecutor?

STRICKLER: It does. Everything he is saying is making so much easier for the prosecutor. I would be cringing if I was representing him because it`s a done deal. The grand jury has already heard the case. He`s indicted. I`m surprised he`s out on bond. It already shows the Penn State aura here. This man is out on an unsecured bond of just a $100,000. Most people facing these kinds of charges don`t get out. It doesn`t matter.

PINSKY: Yes, and Conrad Murray is in prison. He`s a dangerous person. And Sandusky -- it`s very confusing.

Meg, I wonder if you have insight as to what`s going on with your attorney peers, because this is the second time the attorney allowed him to give this long interview where everyone, and other attorneys, too, shook their head like why did they let him do that? So why do you think Sandusky`s attorney allowed him to do this?

STRICKLER: You know, I can`t give you the answer. I have no idea. It`s law school 101. You keep your client quiet. You don`t use the media every unless there`s something you want to convey to the media. You can have a press conference. Those things are kind of normal.

This is bizarre. What`s so interesting is "The New York Times" and then Bob Costas, and both are lengthy interviews. There`s no limitations to the interview. He`s being audio, videoed, everything. That`s not normal. The best thing we need to do as defense attorneys is make the prosecution build their case. Don`t help them. Don`t help them. And that`s what`s happening here. I don`t have an answer. I don`t have any clue. Unless for some reason this Sandusky is such a manipulative person he`s got this lawyer -- I can`t tell you.

PINSKY: I think that`s some of what happens. The attorneys start to believe their client. But Ben Andreozzi, you are an attorney for three alleged victims. Do you have something to say on this?

ANDREOZZI: I have to be careful. I`m a civil attorney. I`m not a criminal defense attorney. But in my opinion I think Mr. Sandusky realizes this is our Hail Mary pass. We`ve got to score five touchdowns and it`s the end of the fourth quarter.

I think the evidence against Mr. Sandusky is so damning right now that they feel they have no other choice but to take a not a very well calculated risk. But I think it`s something they`ve got to do. They have no other option at this point. I think there`s so much more information, quite honestly. I don`t think the other seven people would have to testify, that`s how strong victim number four`s testimony is in this case.

PINSKY: That`s something I want to know. So there`s very specific evidence coming forward that is going to ice this thing, because you hear the guy in denial and you think maybe he`s just a guy with horrible boundaries and somebody misinterpreted something. But you`re saying no, there`s hard evidence. This guy is who we are afraid he is.

ANDREOZZI: There really is. And what`s been released publicly is the grand jury presentation. It`s a document. It summarizes hours and hours and hours worth of testimony that these folks gave to the grand jury. And the levels of specificity that at least my client gave to the grand jury, it`s remarkable. And I think, you know, it goes a long way for a sexual assault victim to be able to sit in front of a grand jury and testify to these specific horrible acts with such specificity. I`m very confident if this case does go to trial that simply based on victim number four`s testimony alone he would be convicted.

PINSKY: So I`m imagining what you`re talking about there`s some specific anatomical descriptions and things that cannot be denied otherwise. Is that what we`re talking about here?

ANDREOZZI: That`s correct.

PINSKY: OK. So we`ll -- Meg, you have reaction to that. I have disgust. Do you?

STRICKLER: Yes. And I did read the indictment. And my -- I can kind of tell this is a done deal. I did want to respond to Hail Mary pass. I like the football analogy there. But there`s so many other things the defense attorneys have in our little arsenal. Going on "The New York Times" is not a Hail Mary pass. There`s other things we could have done to mitigate the situation. He could have taken a polygraph or something like that or done an evaluation. There other things that we can do to help the situation. But going on the national media and talking about it instead of letting the media just talk and ask a million questions, especially with Bob Costas, that is zero help. And I don`t see how even a Hail Mary -- it doesn`t work for me.

PINSKY: Speaking of the Bob Costas interview, the "New York Times" asked Sandusky to air some of the troubling remarks he made in this interview NBC interview with Bob Costas. Watch.


BOB COSTAS, NBC ANCHOR: Are you sexually attracted to young boys, to underage boys?

SANDUSKY: Am I sexually attracted to underage boys? Sexually attracted? I enjoy young people. I love to be around them. I -- but no, I`m not sexually attracted to young boys.


PINSKY: Mark, it`s like he dug himself deeper with this response.

STEPHENS: He did. He did. You don`t need the body language expert. We all see it. When he says this didn`t happen and he looks away and he`s waving his hands from front of his face, this is everything we`re doing when we`re trying to deceive. He can`t deal straight eye-to-eye and tell you the truth of what`s going on. Everything has to be sending your attention somewhere else because the guy has done things that are wrong. He`s been protected for too long in this good old boys` club. And now he`s still thinking if I can appear sort of charming maybe they`ll believe everything is OK.

PINSKY: That`s what is bothering me. I dealt with a lot of victimizers in my practice over the years. This has to be among the best. And to do it in front of god and everybody on national television and to do it repeatedly and to think he`s going to get away with it when there`s hard evidence --

STEPHENS: I think what happened is he`s gotten away with it before within the institution. He thinks if I do the same thing that worked for me before --

PINSKY: Maybe his whole life.

STEPHENS: -- maybe his whole life, maybe it`s going to work again now. And I think that`s what he`s holding onto, the hope that he`s going to charm us all and say, wow, this is a great guy. There`s been a misunderstanding.

PINSKY: Is that part of what motivates? I understand these guys, they love children. They want to be around them. But also part of it to mitigate the guilt by giving of service to kids?

STEPHENS: I think there`s some part of him that is waiting to be caught. Like the kid with his hand in the candy jar. He`s got the crumbs on his face literally saying I know we can all see this. I know I did something wrong. But I almost need somebody to really point hard that I`ve really done something wrong because that`s how odd he`s being in his behavior.

PINSKY: Very unsettling, very disturbing. Meg, thank you for joining us. Ben, hopefully we`ll have you guys back to continue this conversation.

We are getting a lot of reaction to Jerry Sandusky`s latest interview. And what we`ve all been discussing tonight here. I am taking your calls and questions next. We`ll be back in just a moment.


PINSKY: Welcome back.

Now we`ve been talking about Jerry Sandusky`s bizarre interview with "The New York Times." In it he insists that he never sexually abused young boys. Many of you have reacted strongly to this and other stories of alleged abuse we`ve been covering lately. Let`s take your calls and questions. Here is Sherri in Canada. Go ahead.

SHERRI, CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thanks for taking my call. Do you think that Sandusky realizes showering with kids in itself is a form of abuse and intimidation?

PINSKY: I`m not sure it`s abuse, but it`s manipulation. It`s crossing boundaries. And as we discussed a few segments back as Meg was telling us is that any of these behaviors, the showering, the hugging all of these things are enough to convict someone on unwanted contact of many time types. I agree with you.

Lewis writes "These universities want to avoid statistics of campus rape, assaults, faculty sexual assault and abuse to keep a good image. Don`t you think these colleges should be majorly fined for not reporting crimes for investigation?"

Louis, to me one of the big concerns of this story is the fact that college campuses, universities seem to be little insulated shells that believe they`re above the law, they`re above the community standards. And that is unacceptable. That`s what is driving me out of my mind about this. The educators don`t understand their reporting requirements because they`re academics. They know better. They`re administrators. Nonsense. This thing needs to be cut down to size.

We`re paying fortunes to send our kids to these institutions where there`s tons of unwanted sexual contact, alcohol consumption. The administrators want to legalize the alcohol so the kids can just go wild with it, come on, now, the same guys who kept the Sandusky thing under wrap. There`s a problem on college campuses. This is a symptom of bigger things, I think.

Bernice in Kansas, go ahead.

BERNICE, CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just wanted to say I`ve suffered abuse of every kind. It has affected my life at the age of 60. I remain on a frightening amount of anti-depressants and I`m going for my fourth time to receive ECT treatment. So as far as Jerry Sandusky is concerned, I hope that predator is locked up and the key is thrown away.

PINSKY: I think that`s the point is that once someone has been a predator like that, if they do something to that individual`s life, and not just one person, they do it to multiple, it affects them their entire lives. And what you`re describing is not unusual. I`m so sorry.

But we`re going to investigate this on future shows. I`m going to bring in experts to show how this affects the brain permanently.

Gene on Facebook writes, "Dr. Drew, I hate the fact that people justify and make excuses that the reason they molest is because they were molested." Gene, I want to tell you, it is no excuse. It`s something we have to understand and come to terms with is that perpetrators themselves were abused. That`s the vast, vast majority of perpetrators.

Let`s be clear, in my mind when they cross a certain line, I`m not sure they deserve a second chance, some of them. And some of them are rehabilitate-able. It`s something for us all to struggle with.

We want to remind you to go to so see our must see, must share stores, and check out what made HLN`s top 10 tonight.

Next we`re going to talk about bullying and how it drives one young teen almost to another suicide. We`re going to talk about it. Something we`ve all experienced. Think about it, every one of us around 12 or 13 had some experience with this. We`re going to get into it with some experts after this.



PINSKY (voice-over): Phoebe Prince, Jamey Rodemeyer, Tyler Clementi, all tormented by peers, all driven to suicide. Teen bullying is widespread and heartbreaking. Now, one young man issues a poignant cry for help and gets a flood of celebrity support. Is bullying inevitable? Is social media to blame? Why does it always seem to happen in the same narrow age group?

Cain train derails after numerous sexual harassment accusations. Why is politics so ripe with narcissist, cheaters, and harassers? One woman may know the answer, Bill Clinton accuser, Gennifer Flowers. She`s here with her inside story.


PINSKY (on-camera): Well, welcome. Now, there`s a YouTube video that`s caught our attention. It is a sad and heartfelt cry for help posted by a 14-year-old boy named Jonah Mowry (ph). He said bullying led to despair, and then, finally self mutilation and thoughts of suicide. Take a look at this.



PINSKY: That four-month old video led to an outpouring of sympathy from friends and some celebrities including Lady Gaga and Ricky Martin who tweeted their support for the young man. I don`t know if you noticed it last weekend. It was really going across the Twitterdom.

Now, here with me to talk about this is clinical psychologist, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, pediatrician, Dr. Harvey Karp, and Tina Meier, she is a mother of a 13-year-old, Megan Meier, who sadly took her own life after having been bullied online.

Now, before we get to the panel, I want to show you one more clip recently posted by Jonah thanking his supporters. Watch this. This is subsequent to one we just saw.


JONAH MOWRY, TEEN SAYS BULLYING MADE HIM STRONGER: For the people who think that nobody likes me, almost my entire school loves me. I don`t want to sound like stupid or conceited or anything, but yes. P.S.S. thank you everyone who` being nice. I don`t know why I said P.S.S. -- just nevermind.


MOWRY: Thank you for everyone who`s being nice and to the people who are being mean and calling me gay, thank you for stating the obvious. You could really be the next Einstein.


PINSKY: So, there`s controversy surrounding the video and that Jonah doesn`t seem very sincere in this one we just saw and people are suggesting that the first one was a fraud to get attention. I personally don`t. I mean, I think, you know, this is typical adolescent behavior. Let`s face it.

A kid can be in despair one minute and seem bounce back and seem cavalier in the next. Are we seeing more bullying these days and is social media to be responsible for it?

DR. HARVEY KARP, PEDIATRICIAN: Well, we`re more connected. That`s a good thing, but sure, you`re going to be a target for more, you know, -- and of course, it`s so anonymous. It allows you to say things that you wouldn`t say face-to-face.

PINSKY: And are you seeing more of it in clinical practice? Are parents coming and complaining or kids coming and talking to pediatrician about this?

KARP: I think that this is on the upswing, yes, visit.

PINSKY: Dr. Durvasula, I want to go to you. Is this something that has always been around? I mean, when I think back to being 11 or 12 and I watch my -- I have triplets and they went through that. Something nasty happens to young adolescents run the age of 11 and 12. Where they lose, they become aggressive.

They don`t have yet the capacity for empathy, and there is a lot of things that look like bullying that may be kind of normative. Is that just a phase that we have to deal with better?

DR. RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think children at that age are sort of starting to grow into their personalities. Keep in mind, around the ages of 11 to 12, the focus shifts very much to peers, approval from peers, and peers really become sort of the barometer of approval much more so than parents. And kids are looking to get attention in that peer anyway they can, and particularly, approval in the peer.

So, I think that`s where bullying really becomes a higher risk behavior as they get a little bit older and sort of break away from the adults and focus on their own.

PINSKY: Let me ask Dr. Karp and Dr. Durvasula, do you remember being, maybe not overtly bullied, but feeling bad because some of the things your peers did to you in middle school?

KARP: Oh, yes. I mean, I got left out. I was skinny. I wore glasses.


PINSKY: But you were too smart. But it`s not just kids that are bullies, per se, that engage in that, is that right? Don`t we all -- every one of us thought of a story --

KARP: You have to. You have to when you`re a teenager. What you`re doing is you`re defining your group, and once you define your group, everybody else is the outside, parents and everybody.

PINSKY: Dr. Durvasula, you want to comment on that?

DURVASULA: Oh, yes. I mean, sometimes, I argue that I think I got my Ph.D. because I hid in the books to get away from the bullies. I think we all experience this in our different fashion and all for a variety of reasons, and it hurts, and it stays with us. And I think a lot of us continue to try to exert our revenge fantasies well into adulthood.


DURVASULA: But I do think this is something universal as Dr. Karp said, you know, about really, you know, trying to sort of find a space for ourselves and that process of individuation of becoming ourselves, it hurts a little bit. And I think that`s what`s so hard.

And that`s what`s so powerful about him, because what he was doing it`s almost like how kids who are bullied don`t feel heard. The fact that he was putting that message out on pieces of paper and not saying it was an interesting metaphor for what the bullied kid experiences.

PINSKY: And I want to talk -- I want to sort of transition for what maybe I don`t want to call it norm. It was something we all experience, surreal genuine bullying, which is the norm but something that we`re -- I think, we`re saying way too much of, and I personally believe it`s an expression of, if anything, the decay of our families and some of the parenting style. It starts very early, does it not?

KARP: Well, we learn very early how to deal with feelings of unhappiness to share those tense (ph). We naturally want to share the feelings. The trouble is so often, as parents, and it`s hard. I mean, parenting is tough, but so often, we`re so fast to try to solve the problem than rather listening, just being with our kids and encouraging them to speak about it rather than trying to take care of it among the other 50 things we`re doing.

PINSKY: Right. They don`t need rescuing so much as just a stable base, a secure base, to operate from. Now, Tina, I`m going to go to you now. Your daughter, Megan, was a victim of bullying, and it led to severe despair, and ultimately, it cost her her life. How do you think Megan would have responded to Jonah`s video had she seen it?

TINA MEIER, MOTHER OF BULLIED TEEN WHO KILLED HERSELF: Megan had huge compassion. So Megan would have been one of those that could understand. She could empathize with how he felt, and I think Megan certainly would have responded to him. And I think that is what, you know, -- technology is amazing in one way, and it`s really a determent in the other.

In one way, we`re hearing about the situations happening, but it`s allowing children to be able to reach out instead of that small group that maybe is bullying them. But now reach out to a larger crowd that maybe we`ll start understanding and empathizing with them. So, I think Megan certainly would have been one of those to empathize with him.

PINSKY: And for Tina, for Megan, was the bullying something that largely went on online or was it something in the flesh as well?

MEIER: Oh, Megan was both. Megan suffered bullying from third grade through seventh grade. Seventh grade was the roughest year for her. I mean, she had boys stopping behind her in the lunch line calling her a fat cow and an elephant to the point that Megan stopped eating lunch. But again, she didn`t come home and tell me about that stuff because it`s embarrassing to kids when these things are happening.

And they are afraid that parents are going to either run in and scream and yell at the school, or we`re going to try to take control over the situation and make it worse. And so, when I do talk to parents and children who are going through the situation, like Dr. Karp had said, it`s honestly listening to them, hearing it, not always fixing the situation but being that sounding board and hearing what they`re truly saying.

PINSKY: Dr. Durvasula, Tina gave us a very nice little takeaway for parents. I`m going to give you a chance to get some takeaways as well and then Dr. Karp. Dr. Durvasula, you first.

DURVASULA: Yes. One thing I want to do is I really want us to not minimize the impact of cyber bullying. Recent research has shown that the traumatic impact of cyber bullying actually surpasses that when kids are being sort of bullied person to person, which is really surprising, because we think cyber bullying is being done once removed, but it`s relentless.

So, it`s really important that parents monitor their children`s phones, Facebook, and social media. Just as important social space is going to school, and it can be just as treacherous.

PINSKY: Yes. I`ve always told parents the internet is not just an enemy, it`s a friend where you can gather information, but you have got to be diligent. You got to be honest. You got to know how to operate on it. Dr. Karp, as a physician, what do you want parents to do when they bring their kids to interact with the medical system. How can they best utilize the resource of the doctor?

KARP: Well, of course, bring it up to the doctor if you know about it, but one of the curious thing about bullying is that a lot of times parents don`t even know it`s going on. As Tina said --

PINSKY: I think that`s what we`re all saying. Yes.

KARP: Right. So, anticipate it. Don`t wait for your child to bring it up.

PINSKY: Can we, as a medical profession, anticipate it in some way?

KARP: Yes, of course. I mean, I started when kids are two and three and four years of age telling stories about, you know, the little bunny rabbit and everybody didn`t like him, but he found the one friend. Don`t try to do it directly and say when kids do this to you -- I mean, you can do that also.

When kids do this to you, this is what you can say, load them up with a dialogue, but do it through the side door, through little stories, and through doll play. A lot of times that allows a young child to absorb the information that they can --

PINSKY: Tina, last word to you before we go to break.

MEIER: Again, I do think it`s the parents getting involved. I think, in today`s world, we are so busy, and we`re trying to do many different things, but sometimes, taking that time to talk to your child, monitoring any electronic communications. We`re coming up on the holidays, and many children are going to be getting these cell phones and laptops and different things that they`re going to be getting.

Please make sure, parents, that you understand what that technology is, how it can be used so that you can best protect your children.

PINSKY: Thank you, Tina. Thank you Dr. Durvasula. Thank you, Dr. Karp.

Still to come, Herman Cain announces he`s out as Republican presidential candidate amidst rumors of sexual harassment and infidelity. When we come back, I`m going to talk to a woman who allegedly had an affair with former president, Bill Clinton. Is this just politics as usual? Are we become accustomed to this? Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you still deny the allegations that you had an affair with Ginger White?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s garbage. The truth is Ginger White and I are friends. And yes, I gave her money, because that`s what friends do. Seth, you and I are friends, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here, take some money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, well, thank you.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And now, you know that money ain`t free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what, I`ll just give it back.



PINSKY: That is actor, Kenan Thompson, from "Saturday Night Live" playing Herman Cain this past weekend. The Republican presidential candidate announced Saturday he is suspending his campaign effectively dropping out of the race. Watch this.


HERMAN CAIN, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I came here to declare my candidacy for the Republican nomination for president of the United States of America.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two women went public with allegations of sexual harassment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He put his hand on my leg, under my skirt, and reached for my genitals.

CAIN: I have never sexually harassed anyone.

This individual is going to accuse me of an affair for an extended period of time. I just want to give you a heads up and your audience a heads up. Here we go again.

GINGER WHITE, ALLEGED CAIN`S MISTRESS: I was aware that he was married, and I was also aware that I was involved in a very inappropriate situation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: White tells me she had an affair with the Georgia businessman that lasted more than a decade.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Did you have a 13-year affair with this woman?

CAIN: No, I did not.

WHITE: I can`t imagine him actually confirming.

CAIN: I`m not dropping out of this race.

So, as of today, I am suspending my presidential campaign.


PINSKY: Cain made that announcement after a string of sexual harassment allegations, all of which, he denied. Did Cain drop out of the race because he knows the accusations will continue to climb? And the other question is, how did he really expect to be president of the United States when him kind of must have known this stuff was out there.

Joining me tonight, a woman apparently had a 12-year affair with former President Bill Clinton, Gennifer Flowers. Gennifer, what was your reaction when you start to hear this woman come forward?

GENNIFER FLOWERS, ALLEGEDLY HAD 12-YEAR AFFAIR PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I was not surprised that, at some point in the campaign, that something like this was not going to come out on someone because it usually does. When I heard the 13 years, of course, it reminded me of my situation with Bill Clinton. And it was very interesting to see how it proceed.

PINSKY: And Gennifer, you know, it`s almost like Bill Clinton was at the leading edge of a group of politicians that just continued to engage in these sorts of behavior. Have we just come to accept that in politicians now or has this always been going on and we just sort of found out about it the way it`s being reported so readily?

FLOWERS: Well, I think, to some extent, it`s always gone on. I think that the media now doesn`t turn a blind eye to that sort of thing, obviously. I think Bill thought that as long as he was in his periphery of Arkansas, he had all the power and that he could do anything he wanted to, and he did.

When he became international news, that`s when all of these things started to come out, and I suspect it`s the same situation with Mr. Cain.

PINSKY: Gennifer, I want you to talk about how traumatic this is for the women that are involved in this. You -- I interviewed you on the radio once, and you told me a story, and I wish you would bring it back to life again for me about how Bill Clinton actually came to you once and even tried to make an amends, and even in making the amends, it was traumatizing. Can you tell me that story again and what it means to the women that are involved in these cases?

FLOWERS: Well, I can`t even begin to actually explain. It`s something that you would really have to be involved with yourself to get the true dynamics of what you feel in the variety of emotions that you go through, because you`re afraid. Your heart is broken. You`re betrayed and so on and so forth. So, there`s a plethora of things that you feel.

And then, when it comes to someone trying to make amends, you know, I forgave bill in my heart, because I felt that I needed to in order to go on and be productive and really be able to function as a normal human being out there, although, it`s been difficult anyway. But when Bill tried to make amends with me, I really didn`t want any part of it.

I felt like he was in -- he acted like he was in some 12-step program and just needed to apologize to me personally, and I didn`t want any part of it. I also didn`t trust that I wasn`t being set up in some way, because I have -- you know, I`m very distrustful of those folks as indeed I should be. I had, at times, feared for my life. So, I wasn`t interested in him doing that, at that point.

PINSKY: But tell that -- it was quite a story where you said he came to you like cloaked in the middle of the night and you had to board your door up. Can you tell us that story quickly, please?

FLOWERS: Well, he actually wanted to come over. He was coming to town. It was after Katrina. And he was coming to town, and he called and asked me if he could come over and visit with me. He said, I really need to talk with you. The only reason that I answered the phone was because I thought it was a friend whose number came in and said unavailable, because normally, I don`t answer those calls.

So, first of all, I was very surprised to hear him on the phone. I thought it was someone playing a joke on me at first. And then, when I realized it was him and he was wanting to come to my home -- he knew where I lived here in New Orleans, and he wanted to sit down and he wanted to talk to me.

And I said no. You can`t come here. And really, there`s nothing that you have to say that I want to hear at this point. He said I really need - - I said, why -- you know, say it on the phone now.

PINSKY: And as I recall -- I only have like ten seconds left, Gennifer, but as I recall, he actually showed up at your door and tried to force his way in, is that not right?

FLOWERS: Oh, no, no. He didn`t do that.

PINSKY: Didn`t show up?

FLOWERS: But he was very insistent -- no, he never showed up, but he was very insistent. He said I`ll -- you know, I`ll wear the (INAUDIBLE). I`ll wear something over my head. Nobody will know it`s me, and I said absolutely not.

PINSKY: I see. He offered to show up.

FLOWERS: Oh, yes.

PINSKY: I got to take a break. President Clinton, of course, is known as the come back kid, and he did get a second chance. Can Herman Cain make a come back or is this the end of the line for him? Stay with us.



BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.


PINSKY: That, of course, was former president, Bill Clinton, denying that he had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. Not so truthful, huh?

Welcome back. Tonight, we`re talking about Herman Cain who just leave out of the Republican race, but we`re talking about the women who love these powerful men. Some of them are not married to them.

Back to my special guest, Gennifer Flowers. Gennifer, any sense of what`s next for Herman Cain. Do you think he can make any sort of come back or is it just over for him?

FLOWERS: I think it`s over for him for now. And Dr. Drew, as I`ve observed, I think the difference in whether they can go on after something like this has happened to them is if their wife will standby them and allow themselves to be humiliated and standby their side in front of the median world.

And I don`t think his wife was going for that, and I think that`s what has made the difference. It made the difference with Gary Hart, for example, and a number of others. Obviously, Hillary Clinton stood by her man.

So, you know, he went onto become the president of the United States, because I made him a household name overnight when my story became public, not intentionally, but I think that really is what has made the difference in these guys.


PINSKY: Let`s remind ourselves of a short list of politicians and the women who got caught recently with their pants down. Of course, President Bill Clinton with Gennifer Flowers and Monica Lewinsky. Congressman Anthony Weiner with Traci Nobles, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger with Mildred Patricia Baena, Governor Mark Sanford with Maria Belen Chapur, Governor Eliot Spitzer with Ashley Dupre and Senator John Edwards with Rielle Hunter.

Gennifer, what does this list say about politicians in America? Is it that -- you know, I think that the field attracts a certain kind of person, and it`s the kind of person that maybe he should have been doing this kind of thing when they were in college or high school, and this is their chance to do it as an adult, perhaps.

FLOWERS: I`ll tell you something, the power is an aphrodisiac for these guys. I mean, Bill Clinton was -- he was in a band in high school. He was a little fat kid in the band. And when he became a politician for the first time and started getting the attention, you know, that`s when, I think, it went to his -- started going to his head anyway. And I think that that`s -- I think men have the propensity to do this anyway.

Obviously, he listed a few women in there, but, I think they`re like rock stars. I mean, when they start getting that kind of attention and it`s easy for them. If the wife at home is not going to do anything about it, you have a lot of willing participants, women out there and/or men, I think it becomes easy for them to do. I think they need it for their egos.

PINSKY: Well, I think, of course, and that`s what this is about, or sometimes, it`s sex addiction and other things. But the fact is it`s disgusting. Don`t get married if you`re going to do this stuff. Fine. Don`t get married. And if you are married, try to be a public figure, my kids are watching this stuff.

And by the way, along the way, not only you disparaging the institution of marriage, you`re harming people like Gennifer. It`s traumatic for the women that you`re acting out on, as well. There are victims across --

FLOWERS: They`re harming the world. They`re harming the world.

PINSKY: I agree with you. I agree with you.

FLOWERS: We have kids in school now that thinks it`s OK -- that oral sex is not really sex.

PINSKY: Listen, I was right there when that all went down, but Gennifer, I got to interrupt you. I`ve got to take a break. Thank you for joining us. I will -- that`s a conversation for a later date, an interesting one at that.

But thank you all for watching us tonight, and I will see you next time.