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DR. DREW

Jerry Sandusky Arrested; Panel Discusses Effects of Childhood Abuse

Aired December 7, 2011 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go, the plane truth about actor Alec Baldwin. He was thrown off a jet for defying orders. Was he being a jerk or just acting like the rest of us? I`m speaking to the star`s brother, Daniel Baldwin, about this.

And Jerry Sandusky has been arrested again. We`ll talk to sex abuse victims, experts, and advocates about the spate of sex abuse cases in America. Let`s end this cycle once and for all.

Tonight we have breaking news. Former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky arrested again as two more victims come forward. Both alleged victims say they met Sandusky through the charity he founded.

Now, since the Penn State story broke, we`ve seen an abundance of child sex abuse stories, so tonight I have set up a special panel, a survivor, a celebrity victim, a brain specialist, an advocate. We`re going to dig deep into these stories and try to figure out what this does to people and how we can stop this from happening.

Actor and comedian Tom Arnold is a survivor of sexual abuse. He very kindly came on this program a few days ago and told us his story, and you responded very rather strongly to that, so we invited him back. You can find him at @TomArnold on Twitter. And by the way, I keep promoting his comedy special, which is awesome. You can also catch him in Virginia at the Arlington Draft House this Friday and Saturday.

Joining me also in the studio is Dr. Allan Schore. He is professor of psychiatry at the UCLA Medical School. He is a neuroscientist. And you should be aware, folks at home, that this man informs my career immensely. He wrote a book called "Affect Regulation and the Origin of the Self" that I carry with me like scripture and study it like scripture throughout my career.

And Peter Pellulo heads the Let Go, Let Peace Come In Foundation. They are currently working with Jerry Sandusky`s alleged victims. Peter, how are the victims responding to the second arrest?

PETER PELLULO, WORKING WITH SANDUSKY`S ALLEGED VICTIMS: Well, it`s devastating once again, Dr. Drew. Right now as of an hour ago it doesn`t look like he has made bond of $250,000. They are actually processing him at the county correctional facility. So, you know, it`s just devastating. If he is able to stay in there, at least he won`t be able to do the interviews, so -- which is just re-victimizing them every time he does it.

PINSKY: OK. I want to make sure -- I want to sort of tie a rope around that, what you just said there a little bit, and explore it a little further, which is so you in an interaction with the kids you are dealing with, who you are trying to help. These interviews he keeps doing or he keeps sort of trying to normalize these behaviors, these boundary violations that he admits he is involved with is further traumatizing to these kids?

PELLULO: Without a doubt, without a doubt. We`re now working not only with the young men from the grand jury indictment, but some of the 11 young men that have come up since the grand jury indictment. Now, today there are two more than will be included, so the grand jury indictment just went from eight to 10. There`s many others.

PINSKY: OK. Thank you, Peter. Tom, you have been in the victim seat.

TOM ARNOLD, ACTOR, SEXUAL ABUSE SURVIVOR: I have. You know, what scares me and what always scared me growing up in Ottumwa, Iowa, was that I would go to the mall and see this guy, the guy that raped me, and I would see him, and he would have this power, and I --

PINSKY: So you were vigilant, hyper-vigilant even though the guy wasn`t in your circle or in your life, every day you would go out and say am I going to see him?

ARNOLD: Even as an adult I was scared of that, I was afraid, because I knew he was out and about, and I know that`s what these kids -- you know, they`re -- it`s a small town, sort of. And so this guy is out running in the mall literally, and you see him on TV, and it`s scary. It`s ridiculous.

PINSKY: So seeing him on TV is scary for the kids.

ARNOLD: Just horrible.

PINSKY: I`m surprised what Peter said about them being traumatized by him being arrested. I would think that would be a relief for them. Maybe he will make bail, but for now I know he is in jail.

ARNOLD: It`s a weird thing, too. Him being arrested means he is back on the news. There`s people, you know -- he is back, and he will have another chance to alter his story and do that, you know.

One thing I have to say is I was watching CNN, and people are so scared. They`re like, we`re not letting our children go out of the house, and it`s not like that, you know. What I always say to people is would you trust somebody to put all your jewelry, all your money, the deed to your house in their car and drive away with it? No. You would trust, like, two people. But would you trust them to put the thing that means the most to you, your child, into the car and go for a run or go down to the candy store? Probably.

PINSKY: Well, that`s one of the things about victimizers that they all -- that those that recover and have some, you know, ability to report back on their abhorrent behavior is they knew the children they victimized long before they actually did the victimization, even if it was just seeing them on the playground. So parents need to be hyper vigilant about who is around their kids, but they don`t have to stay at home.

ARNOLD: It`s ridiculous.

Also, I want to take one last thing. I think at some point this thing -- especially with Penn State, the RICO statute. I`m not a lawyer, but this is organized with the second chance or whatever that program is where they were grooming the -- he was grooming these kids. I mean, at some point the RICO statute, which is what we use for organized crime, should be involved, and I think that would make it more serious.

PINSKY: It`s interesting you bring it up.

ARNOLD: I don`t know anything.

PINSKY: I think we have a bigger problem about these institutions, these organizations that hide and hash or these folks, I mean, the Catholic Church being the one that comes to mind, but there are many other organizations out there turning up.

But I do want to change the topic a little bit and turn to Dr. Schore and talk about the biology of this. Now, in the next segment we`re going to get more explicit about the biology of trauma. My question to you now is we see Sandusky giving these interviews where he seems glib, convincing, unconcerned, almost in disbelief. Is there something we know about the biology of people who have survived trauma and become victimizers that allows them to compartmentalize so much that they may really not -- they may disavow completely those parts that were doing the victimization?

DR. ALLAN SCHORE, NEUROSCIENTIST: Some of the recent studies on brain development and how trauma impacts the brain are focusing not only on the effects of trauma like hyper vigilance and fear states.

PINSKY: Like Tom was describing.

SCHORE: But also in responsibilities to trauma the brain can literally shut itself off. People can disassociate. They can completely disconnect from it. For example, in the case of a four-year-old child who was being abused and there`s pain involved, in order for survival purposes the brain has to literally shut that off and disconnect from the emotions from the pain and that.

PINSKY: Does that going forward, though, create a disconnect permanently?

SCHORE: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Or is that part of the brain disconnected from the more conscious parts?

SCHORE: Yes, not only that, but it`s disconnected from the emotion parts of the brain and the ability to feel emotions, such as guilt, which in this case this man can`t feel, but also the ability to have normal relationships to trust in other people. All of that is negatively impacted by this matter of shutting emotions down, of turning them completely off, and just seeing people as objects, not subjects.

ARNOLD: Or is he just lying? Is he just lying to save his butt?

SCHORE: I would suggest this is more than a voluntary situation here. This is literally an unconscious act of purely disconnecting from his own self.

PINSKY: There can be lying too, but one thing Dr. Schore and I see in trauma survivors is they disavow that part so thoroughly. They`re disconnected from body mechanisms, disconnected from brain mechanisms.

One last follow on before I go to this piece of tape, which is it`s surprising that the last victim that came forward has said that he cried for help. Mostly they`re silent terror in these kinds of experiences. Do some kids cry out in the middle of repeated episodes of abuse?

SCHORE: Why not? I think that there is no receptivity on the other side. These people are not processing emotion so they do not feel the emotional pain of the other.

PINSKY: Got it. At all.

Now, Sandusky has done two interviews, and as we`re discussing here, his demeanor and his answers seem bizarre given what we are learning about him, so watch this from the "New York Times."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER PENN STATE ASSISTANT COACH: If I say no, I`m not attracted to boys, that`s not the truth because I am attracted to young people, boys, girls.

(INAUDIBLE)

SANDUSKY: Right. I enjoy -- that`s what I was trying to say. I enjoy spending time with young people. I enjoy spending time with people. I mean, my two favorite groups are the elderly and the young.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Dr. Schore, is this what you are talking about? He is trying to struggle with all this, trying to make sense of it, and, yet, has done these things but disavow them?

SCHORE: Let me say that I think he is trying to struggle intellectually with his left brain, but in terms of his right brain and emotionally, there`s no movement there at all. There`s no insight at all.

PINSKY: OK. This is a very powerful statement. Do you get what he is saying, Tom?

ARNOLD: I get what he is saying. It`s so suspect. I think the guy is trying to help his case. I think is he trying to put things out there, so it doesn`t seem so bad what I was doing.

PINSKY: But here`s the deal. You never became a victimizer, and victimizers may be so shut down in certain parts of their experience and their brain that they literally it doesn`t connect, literally. And as I understand, I don`t want to get too heady here, but the synapto-genesis is diminished. You can actually see the brain wiring is diminished quickly.

SCHORE: The parts of the brain that are looking at emotion, that are feeling emotion, and are processing the signal from another person are shut down in the midst of the act. They are just not on board.

PINSKY: They`re not on board. There`s also another sex abuse story, allegations made against Syracuse university assistant basketball coach Bernie Fine. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Syracuse University has now fired long-time assistant basketball coach Bernie fine.

PINSKY: After three men come forward saying he abused them as boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would put his hand down my shorts whenever I was sitting there watching TV.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He kept touchdown me. I said, Bernie, please stop this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And the D.A. announced today he cannot charge Fine as the statute of limitations has expired. Tom, that`s got to be just --

ARNOLD: That`s what happened to me.

PINSKY: Tell us.

ARNOLD: Well, as an adult I went back after I went through rehab, and I went back, and I found the guy. And I went to the Ottumwa police department, and they said there`s nothing we can do. It`s been over seven years. I went to the governor of Iowa. There`s nothing they could do, and so --

PINSKY: Were they sympathetic at least?

ARNOLD: Oh, very much. Very much.

PINSKY: They had no power to do anything?

ARNOLD: Yes, they couldn`t do it. Their hands were tied. That`s why we have to work on some of these laws. It was tough. It was tough. I took --

PINSKY: There`s a statute on murder, but -- no statute on murder, but a statute on sexual abuse, which is a certain kind of murder in a sense.

ARNOLD: It definitely is.

PINSKY: We`re going to keep this conversation going. Gentlemen, Peter, thank you for joining us.

Coming up, a former adult film star says sexual abuse, early sexual contact, trauma, took her down a path to pornography. Of course, it can lead to addiction as well. Tom, you can talk about that story. The question we`re going to ask, though, can it lead to more dark behaviors and violent behaviors such as murder and as some in the press and current stories are alleging. That`s next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child was not a happy childhood. They showed him as somebody who had mental problems because he was sexually abused as a child, something that went on for years. And so what they were trying to do is really sort of smooth the ground a little bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: As we`ve said, there is breaking news tonight. Ex-Penn State assistant football coach, Jerry Sandusky arrested again as two more victims come forward accusing him of sexual abuse. I`m back with my panel. As well, joining is Jenny Ketcham. She at one time was an adult film star. She herself was an abuse survivor.

I want to begin to examine how sexual abuse changes people and their behaviors, but the question is what kind of behavior can it lead to? Now, Tom, you had experience of abuse causing emotional disregulation, we call it, leading to addiction.

ARNOLD: Right.

PINSKY: Can you connect those dots for us?

ARNOLD: I can`t say that I`m an addict strictly because I was abused, but --

PINSKY: It is a fuel.

ARNOLD: Yes. And it`s a weird thing. And when I`m healthy and working a good program, the fact that I`m abused is not in the top 100 things that pop in my head in the morning, but when I`m not working good program, it`s in the top 10. And my thing is keeping it out of there. And people that have just suffered trauma or have never dealt with it, it`s number one. It`s when they wake up and it`s there, and the only way to get it out of there is to do something to yourself.

PINSKY: And Dr. Schore, we say trauma. I think we maybe should define the term. We`re talking about interpersonal trauma between two human beings, often where one person is in a position of power, person, neighbor, coach, and the other not. The primary experience for the victim is -- that all victims have is terror, wouldn`t you say?

SCHORE: Terror and betrayal. And this form of trauma, which is relational trauma is between people who know each other, et cetera. And I want to point out here that the general principle in this field in brain development is that the earlier that it occurs, the more negative it will be. So this kind of betrayal between an adult and a child is --

PINSKY: It includes physical abuse, abandonment, sexual abuse.

SCHORE: Sexual abuse, but also emotional abuse, neglect, early neglect, early abuse in infants. The reason why it has even a more negative affect on the younger is because it affects the brain and the brain is developing in the first two or three years, which is even before the fourth year. And so that abuse at that point in time will actually alter the trajectory of the brain, especially the right brain, which regulates emotion and also later leads it a predisposition to the use of drugs.

ARNOLD: You talked about the kid that was surprised that the kid yelled because a lot of these kids don`t, and I never yelled no matter how bad it hurt because the guy said you`ll wake up my mother in the next room. So my whole life when things happen, I wouldn`t -- I knew I was not supposed to yell or cry or whatever because whatever it was, so it set a tone.

PINSKY: Terror and trauma induces a freeze response, and so you become a great victim. Now, Jenny, you had a little neglect, a little violence in the home, a little sexual abuse, and you ended up using sex as the drug.

JENNY KETCHAM, FORMER PORN STAR: Yes. It was easier to interact with people on a sexual basis just because that was where I ended up finding my self-worth because that was introduced as the only thing worthy in me. And so I ended up going through a slew of men and women and making my life`s work about having sex, which ended me in the field of pornography, which is a good place if you want to make your life about sex.

PINSKY: And you have some feelings about child on child experiences too. Can you articulate that? This is something people forget, that when children are sexually abused on adults, they will act out on other children, which is traumatic to the other children.

KETCHAM: I wasn`t abused by an adult, but the interaction that took place between me and another young child was such that it shouldn`t have happened at the age that it happened. It`s just too young. And, you know, as a result, I went around and took advantage of other young children and, you know, ultimately inflicting the same kind of abuse on other people.

PINSKY: Now, one of the questions I threw -- brought up before the break we just had, was could being a sexual abuse victim turn a child into a killer? Now, another story has been in the headlines, a Connecticut home invasion case. Three people murdered, two young girls rape. Sexual abuse is coming into the news as a defense. It`s become a go-to defense. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reporter: A prominent Connecticut family held hostage and terrorized in their home by two career criminals paroled from prison just weeks before.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a nan right now who says that her husband and children are being held at their house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have never known evil like this before.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last December this man, Steven Hayes, was convicted on 16 of the 17 charges relating to the brutal killings. The lawyers for Joshua Komisarjevsky portrayed him as a victim of repeated child abuse. They said these are men that are no self-worth, that the adults in his life, through every stage of his life, never got him the mental help that he need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I would say it is horrific that that guy was a victim of abuse, horrific he never got the help he should have gotten, and inexcusable the behavior he engaged in and absolutely not a defense. Anyone disagree with me?

ARNOLD: I agree with you 100 percent.

KETCHAM: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Dr. Schore, even though we can explain it, it doesn`t make it a justification.

SCHORE: No.

PINSKY: OK, Jenny, back to you. Did anything we`ve been discussing here sort of ring true to you? Anything you would like to bring out to the people hearing all these stories about sexual abuse? Is there something more we need to tell about these stories from your perspective? I mean, women can have a special -- we`ve been talking about men almost exclusively in these stories. Women carry a special buffered, I think, and, unfortunately, it`s not coming to the fore in this conversation.

KETCHAM: Absolutely. I mean, being a victim of sexual abuse, you end up having more problems than just -- not that addiction isn`t a big problem, but you end up having self-worth issues that are going to follow you for the rest of your life and prohibit you from ultimately doing whatever it is that you`re potentially capable of doing.

ARNOLD: But there is hope.

KETCHAM: Yes, absolutely.

PINSKY: Let me just say that is exactly what I was thinking. What I want to get to after the break is how it heals, how we repair. Dr. Schore, you studied the repair. You guys are doing fantastic and have experienced the repair. Check out our website for more on this story and others. Go to HLNTV.com. It`s our new site. We`re very proud of it. Our panel is back to talk about healing after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Breaking news tonight, Jerry Sandusky arrested for the second time. Here is his new mug shot. We are back with the panel talking about the effects of sexual abuse, and we`ll going to go on to healing and recovery. We don`t want people to think this is shatter and there`s no hope. There is great hope and great recovery. Tom, what`s your experience been?

ARNOLD: Well, number one, we`ve been wounded, but we don`t have to be damaged people. There is help out there. Just get it out. Write it down. There`s a 12-step meeting. There are people out there like me that have similar stories. Share your story. You know, be honest about it. Then we can put it behind us a little bit. There is help.

PINSKY: By the way, when you say similar stories, similar people to you, somewhere between five percent and maybe 20 percent of the population out there has a similar story. It`s very, very common.

KETCHAM: Absolutely. Get into treatment, get into therapy. You know, find something inside of you that somebody else can help bring out and show you how valuable you actually are.

PINSKY: What can we say to people that have no resources? They don`t have access to therapy or they don`t trust mental health services? Are there people in the community that they can access?

KETCHAM: Absolutely. Like Tom was saying, there are tons of programs that they can go to, support groups that are totally free and all have you to do is show up, and it takes a lot of courage. As soon as you get there, and you realize you are not alone in this, the healing can start.

PINSKY: Dr. Schore?

SCHORE: Two quick points. First of all, I would like to talk about the broader aspect of this, because sexual abuse is one form of abuse, but then there is early abuse in terms of neglect and abuse, let`s say between mothers and infants. Each year according to the government there are 3.5 million cases of abuse are reported, and that`s probably an underestimate because most of these cases don`t become public. So it`s a much broader problem than we think.

Second of all, when it comes to what can be done, the brain research is now being be looked at in terms of how the more that we understand about the brain circuits involved in this, the more we can do about the treatment of it. And it`s now known that psychotherapy can alter brain function, number one.

Number two, the second direction that science has now taken is through early prevention, is to literally preventing these things from hang in the future. And that`s working very early in the first two or three years of life, et cetera. So it`s moving both into therapeutic models as well as early intervention.

PINSKY: I have an even broader way of understanding these topics, and I want people to understand -- hear me clearly. We affect each other. We affect one another. We affect one another throughout our life span, but never more so than early when our brain is forming. And think about that.

And should something go wrong and a kid be traumatized, they can continue to be affected by others, by other human beings who merely show an ability to care and hold a boundary and sustain a relationship with them. That ability, and I`m going to finish with you, Tom, that ability to enter a relationship is a challenging thing for someone that`s been traumatized. It`s hard to trust and feel intimate and hard to be close.

ARNOLD: I`ve been married four times, and maybe it took me that long to know how to do it right. You know, you think you know how to have a relationship, you think you know how to live, but you really don`t until you dig in and start figure it out.

PINSKY: Ultimately, the healing occurs in an interpersonal way. The trauma occurs in a relational context. The healing occurs in a relational context. We have got to remember that. Please, folks. You`re not alone, and we affect each other. If you think otherwise, please write in to take me on. We are going to have an on call segment tonight. It`s not on this topic. It will be later in the show.

And we`re going to talk about a frequent flyer who has been in the news, Alec Baldwin. And he is being sort of, I don`t know -- he has been kind of crushed.

ARNOLD: I love Alec.

PINSKY: I do too.

ARNOLD: I`m defending him.

PINSKY: I am too, Tom, and that`s what I`m going to come out in favor of him, even though people are taking shots at him.

Also another alleged sex abuse scandal is emerging. A Major League Baseball team is involved, a team that I also like, the Red Sox. I`m upset about this. Stay with us. We`re not going anywhere. You stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (voice-over): Alec Baldwin gets the boot. The actor kicked off a plane after an alleged tarmac tantrum. Baldwin`s blow out followed by a Twitter tirade. Insult, indignation, but it`s not his first time. Some are implying that this is some sort of narcissism out of control or is he just a smart Alec playing the media for publicity? I`m talking to the star`s own brother, Daniel Baldwin, for answers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY (on-camera): Now, as we told you earlier, there is breaking news. Former Penn State football coach, Jerry Sandusky, arrested again today. Two more men came forward claiming Sandusky sexually assaulted them when they were children. Now, throughout this hour, we`ve been talking about victimization, the consequences of victimization, how they cope.

We are continuing that conversation with yet another alleged child sex abuse scandal. This time, though, I`m going to look more at the organizations involved in these scandals. The particular organization involved here, Boston Red Sox. A Former Boston Red Sox clubhouse manager allegedly assaulted teens who worked for the Sox. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY (voice-over): He landed his dream job in 1991 when a Boston Red Sox batboy helped him get a job as a Fenway park clubhouse attendant. Crawford`s dream quickly turned into a nightmare when Red Sox clubhouse manager, Donald Fitzpatrick, allegedly sexually assaulted him twice, once in an equipment room and in a rest room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First time I came in contact with Mr. Fitzpatrick, I think, I asked for a ball. We then went to a private area where the abuse took place.

PINSKY: The batboy claims he was also sexually molested by Fitzpatrick. Both victims are now represented by Attorney Mitchell Garabedian, who is seeking $5 million in damages for each of his clients claiming the Red Sox organization was involved in a cover-up.

MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, ATTORNEY FOR ACCUSERS: Donald Fitzpatrick told one of my clients to keep the matter secret, and there`s been an ensuing cover-up. Where have the Red Sox been?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY (on-camera): Back with us Peter Pellulo, he heads the let Go, Let Peace Come In Foundation, and he is currently working with Jerry Sandusky`s alleged victims. Former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh, and the attorney representing the two alleged sexual assault victims, Mitchell.

Mitchell, what is it you hope to get -- I understand, you`re going to have a meeting with the Red Sox. What is it you hope to get from that meeting?

GARABEDIAN: Ultimately, we`re hoping to get validation. The clients want some sort of monetary settlement so that it emphasizes and validates the point that the sexual abuse was not the child`s fault. In these cases, in sexual abuse cases, money is a symbol. It`s a symbol that the entity, the corporate power, the pedophile, the supervisor of the pedophile did something wrong and not the child.

PINSKY: Now, the victimizer, in this case, is actually no longer alive, is that correct? He passed away?

GARABEDIAN: That`s correct. He`s passed away.

PINSKY: Right. And he, himself, had, I guess, copped to previous sexual abuse allegations. Is that true, too?

GARABEDIAN: Yes. In 2002, he pled guilty to attempt -- four counts of attempted sexual abuse, and he was given a 15-year probation with a ten- year suspended sentence. And in 1971, reportedly, a batboy who was sexually abused by him when he was working for the Red Sox reported the abuse to the equipment manager of the Red Sox, and they fired the batboy three days later. They did not punish Donald Fitzpatrick.

PINSKY: Well, you really start to put a little bit of a focus on something I want to talk about here. What is it about these organizations -- I`ll go to you first, Mr. Garabedian. What is it about these organizations that we`ve been hearing about repeatedly in the press often focused around males, whether it`s, you know -- I`m not saying the larger institution of a university is focused on males, but the part that is, the sports programs, the Catholic Church, this, the Red Sox.

What is it about these organizations that they, A, harbor these kinds of guys, and, B, don`t take action, aggressive action, when there`s any sign of improprieties?

GARABEDIAN: It`s all about money and power. The organizations are so self-absorbed with regard to money and power, whether you are talking about Penn State, the Catholic Church, the Boston Red Sox, that they feed the secrecy that the pedophile manifests in molesting the child then keeping the -- then telling the child to keep the matter a secret. Then, the supervisors keep it a secret, and the corporate entity practices cover-up.

And you have repeated sexual abuse for decades. Donald Fitzpatrick, for instance, worked for the Boston Red Sox for about 35 years. In my clergy abuse cases, I represented 152 victims against Father John Gagan who molested children for more than 38 years.

There`s just a corporate greed, a corporate power that has to be maintained according to corporate officials at any cost, at the cost of the human soul, at the cost of human life.

PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, you`ve been my educator, my teacher when it comes to legal system. You`ve taught me that in criminal cases, it`s not about the guilt or innocence. It`s about the proof, right? You`ve shattered my idealized notion about the legal system with that. Is there something going on -- OK, correct.

What I`m going to ask you, Mark is, is there something bigger going on here where we need more unified legislation or laws? What are we uncovering here that there`s all these rest of organizations that allow this kind of, let`s call it soul assassination, to go on without it being reported the way those of us that say are clinicians understand we`ve got to report instantly?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know what, the direct answer is, I don`t know, but if we`re talking about changing laws, let`s look at this case. I`m just throwing this out there, and I`m not saying this is what I`m advocating, but the attorney, I believe, morally makes a good point. These people should be paid for the harm that they went through, and I feel for these victims and all victims of sexual abuse.

But in this case, the statute of limitations has run. That`s number one. Number two, the current owners were not the owners back then. What I`m failing to see is any duty that these current owners owed to these victims and any duty that they breached to these particular victims. So, I don`t know how by sitting down with them, number one, they`re going to show that they had any obligation to pay any of this money.

And then, secondly, how money somehow serves the intended purpose, according to the attorney, to validate what these people went through. Money is not going to do that.

PINSKY: Well, I have Peter Pellulo who can -- Mr. Garabedian, I`m going to go to Peter, if you don`t mind, and, by the way, we did reach out -- HLN did reach out to the Red Sox organization for a response today, and they have released a statement.

Quote, "When the team, then under previous management, became aware of the allegations against Mr. Fitzpatrick in 1991, he was promptly relieved of his duties. The club is unaware of any specifics regarding the matters brought forward recently by two individuals, but given the sensitive nature of the matter, we`ll not have any further comment."

I think that goes at what Mark was just saying. But Peter Pellulo, you work with the victims. Mark raises an interesting question. I mean, no amount of money is going to heal what went on with these guys, is it?

PETER PELLULO, WORKING WITH SANDUSKY`S ALLEGED VICTIMS: Absolutely not. I mean, this, as we know, Dr. Drew, this is a life-altering event, and it alters our life until it shuts us down where we can`t accept any kind of real emotions that we could share with anyone. It`s much difficult to share an emotion with someone when you can`t really share it with yourself.

So, these young men at Penn State, you know, they have a long journey ahead of them to reconnect what was taken away from them, and it doesn`t surprise me that these two young men in Boston probably 36, 37 years old are just coming out now because like it`s a life-altering event that shuts us down.

Sometimes, unfortunately, for millions of us, it takes a life-altering event to take us out of it, and, you know, in my own case, I was 55 years old. Corporate executive, traveled around the world, always knew something was wrong with me, but I had to be forced to look at this.

PINSKY: My hope is, Peter, that the Sandusky case is causing more people who actually are genuine victims to come forward. Mr. Garabedian, I`m going give you the last word.

GARABEDIAN: If the laws are not changed, victims will continue to suffer. Their souls will be forever tarnished. Laws should be changed so that victims can fight back, can have speech, can be heard, and can try to heal. I agree. Victims cannot fully heal in most cases, but they can try to heal, and they have to use our laws to try to do so.

And, unfortunately, in the civil realm, all we can get them is money, but that money, once again, represents validation, validation that the victim did nothing wrong. The sexual abuse was not the victim`s fault, and the victim has a right to heal and should try to heal.

Now, if we don`t change the laws according to what council said earlier, then a corporation could sell to a new corporation every year and then get away with saying, well, that was a different corporation that was responsible there, and we`re not going to let it happen.

We need to change the laws so those games cannot be played. And by the way, when a corporation buys the assets of an earlier corporation, they also buy the liabilities, and that`s very clear on the law.

(CROSSTALK)

EIGLARSH: Not always. Not in this instance.

GARABEDIAN: Well, I disagree with you, respectfully. I disagree with you.

PINSKY: OK. I got to go. I got to go, gentlemen. Mitchell Garabedian, thank you very much for joining us. Mark Eiglarsh, as always, and Peter Pellulo, thank you as well.

Coming up, Alec`s attitude. Huh. The most famous Baldwin brother kicked off a plane after an alleged tantrum on the tarmac because of a cell phone and a game. I`m on Alec`s side, just so you know. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Alec Baldwin was booted from an American Airlines flight Tuesday. He allegedly refused to turn off his cell phone, was playing a videogame, "Words with Friends." I can understand that. According to witnesses, he threw a little bit of a tantrum. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alec Baldwin was kicked off of an American Airlines flight, and he`s mad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was sitting on the plane. They shut the door. Apparently, the flight attendant asked him to turn off his game on his iPad or iPhone, wherever he was playing it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn`t want to get off the phone, and he snuck into the bathroom and became a little bit irate, and they had to remove him from the flight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He tweeted "Flight attendant on American reamed me out for playing "Words with Friends" while we sat at the gate. Not moving. #no wonder American is bankrupt." Can you just imagine holding up an entire flight because you wanted to have a little fun with your "Words with Friends?"

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: American Airlines says Baldwin was extremely rude to the crew, calling them inappropriate names and using offensive language.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baldwin later tweeted "Now on the three o`clock American flight. The flight attendants already look smarter."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: An American Airlines released this statement, quote, "He slammed the lavatory door so hard the cockpit crew heard it and became alarmed." They don`t call even a cockpit at the flight deck, huh. Doesn`t sound like American Airlines. "The passenger was extremely rude to the crew calling them inappropriate names and using offensive language. The passenger was removed from the flight and denied boarding."

And now, I want you all to be aware that Alec Baldwin just wrote an opinion piece on "Huffington Post" with an apology to the passengers and harsh words for the airline saying, quote, "It`s no secret that the level of service on U.S. carriers has deteriorated to a point that would make Howard Hughes red faced. Filthy planes, barely edible meals, cuts in jet services to less traveled locations."

I`ve got a great panel here. Joining me to discuss whether or not this is just bullying or is this Alec being -- I suggest you read this little piece he wrote. It will get you kind of going. Celebrity publicist, Howard Bragman, vice chairman reputation.com, comedian Loni Love, my boo is here, and Alec`s own brother, Daniel Baldwin, joins us from Portland.

Now, Daniel, a lot of people remembered the highly publicized voicemail of Alec, you know, getting upset when his daughter -- at his daughter. Is he prone to this kind of stuff? Does his anger just kind of flare and scare people once in a while?

DANIEL BALDWIN, ALEC BALDWIN`S BROTHER: You know, I mean, at first I thought it was a joke. You know, if I know my brother, Alec, and he was -- and he was upset to the point where he went into the bathroom, he was probably losing the game is what it really boiled down to.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: He wasn`t playing "Words with Friends." I think --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: No, no. He and I have competed with each other. You know, I`ve seen many tennis rackets get broken, but he`s also a very caring, loving person, and so, I don`t know what was said. I wasn`t on the plane.

PINSKY: It`s funny you would say that, Dan. Let me tell you something, because I know all you guys. I think I`ve met every one of your brothers, and the Baldwins could not be -- Lottie back me up on this -- have you met the various Baldwins.

LONI LOVE, COMEDIAN: Yes, I know Daniel. I worked with him.

PINSKY: You know Daniel, and they could not be a more delightful, bright, charming group of guys. But you guys all have one thing in common, and I want to sort of challenge you with this, Dan, is you`re all sort of physically -- I don`t want to say intimidating -- but you`re big. You`re big guys, and you all have a little like an undercurrent of intensity about you that you think maybe they just read the wrong way or something?

BALDWIN: No. I think it`s probably a combination -- I think you`re on to something. I think it`s a combination. You know, my father instilled in us. You know, Billy Baldwin came home, and he was seven years old, and Michael McKean (ph) hand took his bicycle, and he came in crying in the door, and my father turned out went -- and grabbed him by the shirt and pulled him and he said then go back outside and get your bicycle back.

Billy went back outside and got his bicycle back. And that`s how my father was. My father was an in your face, get it done guy. You know, Irish catholic middle class, and there was a way -- it was get it done. I don`t care how you get it done. Get it done. And get it done by dinner.

PINSKY: And Howard --

BALDWIN: So, you know --

PINSKY: I`m sorry, Danny, but I got to go to Howard Bragman who is a PR specialist. Does he have a PR problem as a result of some of this behavior? I mean, it`s just him.

HOWARD BRAGMAN, CELEBRITY PUBLICIST: Well, a couple of things. Number one, it reinforces the worst of celebrity behavior, which is people think there`s a sense of entitlement, Drew, and the second thing it does, it reinforces his own anger issues, and I think the third thing it does, it really hurts him because, as you said, he`s a creative, talented, compassionate guy.

And I know he cares about people, and particularly working class people where the Baldwin family comes from, and this makes it look like he`s an arrogant butt head who doesn`t care about working people. And I can tell you, Drew, I have an aunt who`s been flying for a number of years as an American flight attendant. There`s a lot of indignities to passengers.

There`s an equal amount to the staff who had their salaries cut, who are working for a bankrupt company, who are worried about their pensions, and I don`t like the bullying of the little person, and he did it to a barista a couple of weeks ago by tweeting something about Starbucks. He`s bigger than that.

PINSKY: Loni, take us home with this. How do we make sense of all this. Come on now.

LOVE: OK. First of all, it`s American Airlines, not Alec Airlines. That`s the first thing.

PINSKY: First thing. We`ve been on it enough times kind of thinking it was his. Back when I`d run into him, it`s been on American Airlines.

LOVE: Right. But that means, maybe he needs to take a jet. And then secondly, he insinuated that the flight attendants were old. First of all, I like old flight attendants because they make good coffee. Nothing is wrong with that, and he`s not a spring chicken. Who is he to talk about somebody? He in his 50s like you, right?

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Damn, you`re funny.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: You fly a lot, you travel a lot?

LOVE: Yes.

PINSKY: In fact, you got a show coming up this weekend in San Francisco?

LOVE: Yes, I do.

PINSKY: At the --

LOVE: At the Raz Room (ph).

PINSKY: OK. It`s this weekend in San Francisco. And it`s -- you know, particularly on some of the airlines that fly the bigger planes, would you kind of feel like cattle, don`t you? I mean, I`ve noticed that. I fly a lot of United. I get treated pretty well. Flying on Americans with those big 767s and stuff, those flight attendants are all overwhelmed. It`s like nurses with too many patients.

LOVE: Well, yes, they are, but they`re doing the best they can, and the thing is that you have to think about the other passengers, which is the reason why I`m glad he wrote this apology.

PINSKY: Yes. I suggest people read the apology. It is to other passenger, and it does bring up some very important points about the environment of flying today and the post-9/11 world we live in.

LOVE: I mean, who knew that he would be the Rosa Parks of airplanes?

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: If you say so, Lonnie. That`s it. I got to go. Daniel, your new movie is out now on DVD and Blu-Ray. It`s called "Christmas with a Capital C," and Daniel is going to stay with me for the on-call segment, answering your questions about what really happened on that plane. Thank you, Loni. And thank you, Howard Bragman. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: We are back with actor, Daniel Baldwin. His brother, Alec Baldwin, was booted from a plane yesterday because he refused to turn off his cell phone. Daniel, I`m a big, obviously, advocate about health and fitness. I understand you got some stuff going on you want to share with us.

BALDWIN: I do, Drew. You know, if we were to see each other live -- I don`t know if you totally recognize me. I`ve lost over 50 pounds in less than five months on a remarkable home video system, DVD workout system called the "Skogg System." It`s a kettle bell-based workout created by a former navy seal, Michael Skogg, who is pretty much the kettle bell guru of the world, and I`ve been very successful on it and turning fat into lean muscle mass, and I`m doing quite well with it.

PINSKY: Well, I`m always open to more information and more ways that people can get healthy. We -- this is our on-call segment, though, and we`re going to go to the phones. We got Sheila in Florida. Go ahead, Sheila.

SHEILA, FLORIDA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I would just like to make a comment. I think once again, here we have a celebrity that thinks that he is above the rules and that he can do anything he wants to do, and I also think that it was very selfish and unfair to all the other passengers on board that due to his actions, the flight was delayed all because of his unwillingness to do what he was asked to do.

PINSKY: Yes. Daniel, that`s what scares me about this story is that Alec gets painted that way, and that`s not the guy I know. What do we do with the people that are thinking the way Sheila does?

BALDWIN: Well, I mean, I think that everyone, you know, from time to time does things that may not necessarily be who they are or what they are. So, certainly his actions delaying that plane was selfish. I mean, I think he`ll admit that to you. I think that he made a mistake.

Now, if this is going to be, you know, in the Charlie Sheen realm of repeating the same mistake month in and month out until he finally got it right or like myself and my sobriety, as you know very well, Drew, you know, so, yes, Alec, I think, probably made a bit of a mistake. I think he`s apologized for it. I don`t think he should be judged and labeled that this is who he is as a human being.

PINSKY: Well, as you said, you were raised by a dad that was very aggressive and very intense, and that intensity comes through, and you think it would be very naturally. Other people may be put off by it or don`t understand it.

BALDWIN: I remember the fist time you and I met when we were on another show together, and you said to me later on that day, you were a little frightened of me. You thought that I was a little intimidating, a little in your face, even though I don`t -- we didn`t have any words, bad words or whatever.

PINSKY: No. Daniel, I -- it`s funny. I remember that moment. You were surprised, and I`m glad I could share that with you, because I have affection for you, but I remember that kind of feeling of, could this guy be dangerous? Could he be tough? Let`s get one more question. This is a Facebook question.

"Daniel, I think your brother has forgotten that he isn`t in a capital one commercial. Seriously, I believe he has anger issues before. He`s had them before in the press regarding his ex-wife and child. Little humility will go a long way."

See, again, people don`t understand he is a humble guy. Help people understand that, Daniel. This is our last word here, and then, we got to go out.

BALDWIN: Well, he is. I mean, he`s a really good natured person. He`s a really good guy. You know, if you knew the type of intensity that comes from, particularly, Alec and I comparatively to Stephen and Billy who may be a little more passive than we are, but --

PINSKY: Daniel, thank you, and I got to take a break, and it is that intensity that we love watching as well. We`ll see you guys next time. Thanks.

END