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Sandusky Gets His Day on Court; The Man in my Life is a Pedophile: Alec Baldwin on SNL
Aired December 12, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Married to a pedophile. What if your husband was accused of child molestation like Jerry Sandusky? I`m asking women who left.
And extreme stalking, an obsessed lover chases his ex across the Atlantic. What drives stalkers to these extremes?
Plus, a grandmother shoots her son-in-law in a bitter custody battle. Why does divorce spawn such intense hatred?
Let`s get started.
Thanks for joining us tonight. And the Penn State child sex abuse scandal is about to move from the court of public opinion to a Pennsylvania courtroom as former assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky faces over 50 charges of child sex abuse involving eight alleged victims. Watch this, then we`ll talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tomorrow, Sandusky will have his first opportunity to face at least some of his accusers at his preliminary hearing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a very interesting fact that victim nine brings up. He cried out for help, knowing that Jerry Sandusky`s wife was just upstairs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His wife of 45 years is breaking her silence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sandusky`s wife says she believes her husband is innocent of all charges.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Critical witness in the Penn State child sex abuse case may run into credibility problems. The source says McQueary told a friend he never actually saw the assault. He just heard noises and saw a boy looking out from the shower stall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This latest twist in this case holds out hope for Sandusky.
PINSKY: The attorney for alleged victim number one says he expects the atmosphere in the courtroom to be electric and told CNN reporter Susan Candiotti that his teenage client is ready to testify. Watch.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): How is your client trying to prepare himself for this?
MICHAEL BONI, ALLEGED VICTIM`S LAWYER: He has been told to essentially tell the truth, and prepare by simply trying to relax as best as he can.
CANDIOTTI: What is it going to be like for him to face Coach Sandusky?
BONI: I believe it`s going to be a very difficult, difficult experience for him.
PINSKY: And as the clock ticks closer to tomorrow morning`s meeting, a judge has barred cameras from the courtroom and Sandusky`s attorney says there`s no plea talks under way. That attorney, Joe Amendola, did however talk to reporters about Dotty Sandusky`s unwavering support for her husband.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH AMENDOLA, JERRY SANDUSKY`S ATTORNEY: So Dottie said something the other day after the new set of charges were filed, and she was frustrated with Jerry. She said, "Jerry, you`re so naive. You`ve been naive all your life. I told you that. I told you have to be careful even interacting with kids because you don`t know what they may go home and say."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Although Dottie Sandusky is standing by her husband, I`m joined tonight by two women who refused to support their men in their lives after allegations and then convictions of child sex abuse.
Cherlyn Branch learned her husband was molesting her 6-year-old granddaughter. Today he is in prison for that crime. Darlene Ellison learned her ex-husband was a member of an international pedophilia organization while they were married.
Now, Darlene, your husband was a dentist and used his career as excuses for these supposed business trips. When did you find out that they weren`t that?
DARLENE ELLISON, EX-WIFE OF CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: Long after his arrest, and actually closer to the sentencing, the time of sentencing, when I had an opportunity to actually speak to the FBI agent who was - he`s retired now, but who had been the undercover agent with NAMBLA. And I asked him that question point blank, I mean, I wanted to know how long he`d been doing this. And it`s in hindsight it`s, you know, that must have been 18 months after the arrest.
In hindsight, you start thinking about, oh, that dental convention here or when he went to New York. And then it all made sense.
PINSKY: Now, Darlene, you know, NAMBLA is an acronym for National Association of - what - Man/Boy Love or something? And...
ELLISON: Yes. It`s North American Man/Boy Love.
PINSKY: OK. I heard about this like on South Park basically.
PINSKY: And people out there question the veracity of the organization. But you`re here to tell us that not only does it exist but your husband was a card-carrying member?
ELLISON: I`m here to tell you that not only did it exist, but there were hundreds and hundreds of members and I use the word "hundreds" because I don`t know anything factually beyond that. I do know that the FBI spent 18 months undercover in this organization, and there are transcripts from discussions with my ex-husband being one of those in the inner circle and discussing what they - what they enjoyed, which was -
PINSKY: I don`t want to hear anymore.
ELLISON: -- they were predators.
PINSKY: Charlene -
ELLISON: I know.
PINSKY: -- when you - yes. When you first heard about this, was your instinct to support your husband very much like Dottie Sandusky?
CHERLYN BRANCH, HUSBAND MOLESTED 6-YEAR-OLD GRANDDAUGHTER: No, to answer the question, no, it was not. But it did run across my mind what would happen because I had been with him for 16 years or better.
So when you`re with someone that long, you know, of course, it runs through your mind what will happen if I divorce him, what will happen if I leave him, but my first thought was towards my granddaughter. My first thought was towards her safety and keeping her safe, and if I did stay with him, would it happen again? If I did stay with him, would he continue molesting her? So, no, it was never something that I - I considered. It was just like you said, a thought.
PINSKY: And Cherlyn, it must have been stunning to you having been with a man for 16 years, this behavior coming to light. And my understanding is also that you discovered that there was a back story as well, but after 16 years, you didn`t have the slightest hint that there was something up with this guy?
BRANCH: Yes, I did. I think to be honest with you that there were things that I overlooked over the years. There were inappropriateness that I did not pay attention to. And when I say that, I mean, when I first met him, my husband, my ex-husband was a handsome man. He was a good-looking man. And so me as a young woman thinking that, oh, you know, I don`t want to say anything to run him off or anything like that, but there was just, you know, several things that were inappropriate that I had no idea years later.
PINSKY: Like what?
BRANCH: It would turn into him molesting my granddaughter.
PINSKY: Darlene, that must be very -
BRANCH: You say like what?
PINSKY: Yes, I did say like what. I would be happy to listen. Like what, Cherlyn?
BRANCH: I`ll give you an example. One time I can remember we were at home, and he was just lying on the couch, but he didn`t have much clothes on. My daughter and I, when I met him, my daughter was 11. We were on the floor, looking at television, he was behind us on the couch. And I had to say something to him to, you know, cover himself up, to put some clothes on.
You know, to me, it was kind of strange to have to say something to a grown man.
PINSKY: So a sign - a sign of some - right - inappropriate boundaries - right - inappropriate boundaries around a young kid, which is what -
BRANCH: Absolutely, absolutely.
PINSKY: Darlene, yes. Darlene, this is what we know for sure Mr. Sandusky was up to is inappropriate boundaries. I imagine stories like Cherlyn are very common from women that are involved with these men. Is that true?
ELLISON: Oh, you know, absolutely. I think that one thing we have to remember is that you can`t put all the - the pedophiles into a basket and say they all look the same, act the same, do the same. There`s such a large - a long continuum. But I - and some are better at building the boundaries, creating facades so that they are not caught. Some are perfectionist in terms of making sure that no one suspects anything.
And so like in my case, I go back in hindsight and see the over perfectionism in certain situations where, you know, maybe I should have said, wow, why is he being so super vigilant about that.
ELLISON: So I think we can`t put them all in one basket.
PINSKY: I get it.
Now, Dottie Sandusky did release a statement late last week supporting his husband`s claim of innocence. It reads in part, "We don`t know why these young men have made these false accusations, but we want everyone to know they are untrue. I continue to believe in Jerry`s innocence and all the good things he has done."
And we got to remember that we just heard a few minutes ago in the taped piece that rolled into this segment that also Dottie Sandsuky was worrying him that people would misinterpret the way he was behaving. Even she, again, was looking as cants (ph) at some of the things he was doing in terms of his closeness with these young men.
Darlene, you`re shaking your head. You agree?
ELLISON: I do agree. I think, you know, if you ask me to throw in my two cents, I`d say that Dottie Sandusky is in a lot of denial right now. She - this is - everything she`s ever known could be lost. Again, even with a statement, you know, I read this statement and even with that statement, my first thoughts were, well, of course, the defense attorney needs her sitting there in that courtroom supporting her husband. How would it look if she didn`t?
Now, if you - next, by the way, my guests stay with me. Next, if you were the mother of two pre-teen girls, could you marry a man who told you he was a sex offender? Meet a woman who did just that. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMENDOLA: We`re looking for people to tell us specifically what they`re saying happened, and then what we`re going to do is start trying to prove that that probably didn`t happen the way they said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was the attorney for former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky.
Tomorrow morning, Sandusky will meet his alleged victims in a Pennsylvania courtroom, and tonight I`m joined by women who came face to face with sex offenders, face to face with them because they were married to one.
Darlene Ellison learned her ex-husband a dentist was a member of a pedophilia organization. I shake my head as I say that.
Lynn Gilmore is currently married to a convicted sex offender. His victim was 15 years old. She is also author of "Consensual Consequences: A True Story of Life with a Registered Sex Offender."
Lynn, you have two young daughters. I guess you had two young daughters when you married your husband. Is that right? And my question would then be why did you feel comfortable doing so?
LYNN GILMORE, MARRIED TO A CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: Well, I had my own experience as a child to fall back on. As a child, I was molested by a family member, and when I got -
PINSKY: I`m going to interrupt you, Lynn. Lynn, let me just interrupt you right there.
GILMORE: OK. I`m sorry.
PINSKY: Yes. No apology. And I apologize for interrupting.
But, Darlene, let me bring you into the conversation with Lynn. She said something that I want to get into as we went along here, but it`s right here upfront in our face, which is that women that marry sex offenders have a very high probability of having been sexually abused themselves. They tend to bring pedophiles into the child`s life, and then when the pedophilia occurs, they`re so shattered by it because it something that happened to them, that they wouldn`t face it, they wouldn`t deal with it, and deny it.
Darlene, has that been your experience with the women you`re dealing with?
ELLISON: Not necessarily. As far as them actually being victimized by child abuse or child molestation, as children, not necessarily. Of course, you know, my pool of women are those that have contacted me, you know, since the book came out, but in some cases yes, in some cases no. In my particular case, absolutely not.
PINSKY: So let me go back to Lynn. Let`s hear your story. You had childhood sexual abuse, which made - and what it does, again, I want to reemphasize to my viewers, is when kids have experienced terror in childhood, whether it`s physical abuse, sexual abuse or abandonment, they magically are attracted. It forms an attraction to people and places that end up recreating the traumas of the past. It`s extraordinary, but humans do this.
So Lynn, your story is you were sexually abused. And please go on. I`m sorry to interrupt your story.
GILMORE: OK. Yes, I was. And as I, you know, so I had that to reflect back on because this was, like I said a family member, and as I was getting divorced, I was in the middle of a divorce, I had two young girls, they were 10 and 12 years old at the time and, you know, I became acutely aware of, well, gee, who can I possibly, you know, invite into my life that, you know, I thought anyone, anyone at all, any man might be a potential risk to my kids.
But no, I didn`t go looking on any kind of a list or anything like that. I just was very in tune with - with my feelings on that. When I met my husband -
PINSKY: Lynn - Lynn, I have to interrupt you. Everyone at home is shaking their heads, going wait, let me understand this. So your thinking was I have two young kids, I`ve got to make sure I don`t bring - because I tend to bring men around, the pedophile -
GILMORE: No, no.
PINSKY: -- that might be a pedophile.
GILMORE: I don`t. I don`t bring.
PINSKY: -- let me bring in a guy that is a pedophile?
GILMORE: I don`t. I had never in my life brought anyone into my life that was, you know, into that sort of thing, had been convicted of any crime at all.
PINSKY: Wait. Lynn, I`m confused. I`m sorry, Lynn. I`m sorry I keep interrupting you. I`m just so confused. I thought your husband had had sex with a 15-year-old or a 14-year-old.
GILMORE: OK. You`re not letting me say what I need to say.
PINSKY: Please. Please do. Please clarify.
GILMORE: OK, OK. Prior to meeting my husband, I had never in my life met anyone who had not only served any time in prison or been convicted of any crime. I was 38, 39 years old when I met my current husband. So this was all new to me.
And when he told me what happened, you know, we sat down and we talked about it, and I could see that he was truly remorseful, this was just a one time thing, it was just an accident that happened. The conditions were, you know, in such a way that if any one element of that, it would not have happened, and, you know, so I could see that he was remorseful, and I got a real sense from that remorsefulness that - that he had learned his lesson, he had paid his debt to society, and he would never again re-offend on anyone. And as I watched him interact with my children -
PINSKY: Let me - I have to interrupt. And I understand it was good.
So Darlene, are you shaking your head a little bit like I am? I didn`t hear anything. We don`t have somebody who has changed what he`s attracted to. We have someone who says he understands he`s going to go - he`ll be in big trouble if he does it again.
PINSKY: What do we tell someone like Lynn?
ELLISON: Well, I think, too, again I`m going to restate something I said earlier, we can`t take everyone along the continuum of pedophilia and put them all in one basket. I think you have different types of perpetrators, and I think that, you know, it`s my opinion, and you can also look at the research of rates of recidivism, which is the rate within which somebody might perpetrate again, and you have to look at time served and therapeutic process. And I think along that continuum you (INAUDIBLE) a pedophile
PINSKY: Now, Darlene, I`m going to interrupt you. That is very much the point, which is that if - if Lynn had said he was in treatment, that would make sense to me, because unfortunately having remorse doesn`t predict anything about recidivism. Really, it really doesn`t.
ELLISON: You`re absolutely right.
PINSKY: OK. So this is why, Lynn, we`re concerned, is that you`re saying because he was remorseful, I believed him. I do believe he`s remorseful, but that doesn`t change the behavior as much as treatment. So somebody who has not been treated, please if you`re out there and you have impulses or you know somebody who does, get treatment. That changes the outcomes.
PINSKY: Ladies - thank you, Darlene. Thank you, Lynn.
Alec Baldwin made fun of himself on "Saturday Night Live" for the airline dust-up he created last week. We`re going to hear what you have to say on the "On Call" segment.
And later, we will examine the case of an extreme stalker. This is really scary. We`ll talk about what causes such behavior.
Check out new website, HLNtv.com. You can read more about what you`re watching tonight and much more. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: And what harm would it do to let him keep playing his game? Not any game, mind you, but a word game for smart people.
SETH MEYERS, COMEDIAN: Captain Rogers, don`t phones interfere with the plane`s communication system?
BALDWIN: Oh, you don`t believe that, do you, Seth? Would you really get on an airplane that flew 30,000 feet in the air if you thought one Kindle switch could take it down? Come on!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Alec Baldwin on "Saturday Night Live," joking about getting the boot from an American Airlines flight last week. It was really funny, if you got a chance to see it.
And we received a lot of comments on our Facebook and Twitter pages about the skit. Now, how do you think he`s handling the situation? Let`s go to the phones.
Elizabeth, New York, go ahead.
ELIZABETH, BUFFALO, NEW YORK: Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Hey, Elizabeth.
ELIZABETH: Dr. Drew, a quick comment. I thought Alec Baldwin`s skit in SNL was hysterical. I love sarcastic humor, especially when it turns around situations that cover for the reality.
PINSKY: And - but you know what, though? People are arguing - by the way, the skit was brilliant, but people are arguing that perhaps, you know, maybe Alec has some aggression or some anger issues.
We talked to Daniel Baldwin last week and he told us about how their dad was very aggressive and sort of indoctrinated these - the guys to be kind of aggressive. And he`s so damned charming and so damned funny, maybe he wouldn`t learn any lesson from something like this.
That`s what the - I`m not saying that, but that`s what I`ve heard people say out there. I heard Howard Stern say that this morning, in fact.
Robin on Florida, go ahead.
ROBIN, DELAND FLORIDA: Dr. Drew -
ROBIN: I just wanted to say that I think Alec Baldwin feels that he is above reproach, and then -
PINSKY: This is that (ph).
ROBIN: -- he tries to back paddle to make himself look better.
ROBIN: He reminds me of so many of the athletes who think that the rules just don`t apply to them.
PINSKY: I ca n tell you, though, but knowing Alec as I do, he definitely does not feel that way. It`s more an issue of him having some anger and rage issues that get out of control and get the better of him, and then it`s again his charm that kind of glosses all over it.
Let`s go to Jim in Ohio. Go ahead.
JIM, MILFORD, OHIO: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Jim.
JIM: Just a quick comment. I think Alec Baldwin didn`t hurt himself at all. I think he was just trying to make light of it.
JIM: But he shouldn`t. (INAUDIBLE) is take a Greyhound Bus across country if he wants to stick it to American Airlines.
PINSKY: Well -
JIM: I think people would probably like him more if he did so.
PINSKY: You`re right. I - I know he`s not going to be flying American any time soon, but you`re right. It would be a - a sign of a - a populous move. It would be something that he - but I don`t know if he has the time to do that.
I mean, the fact is it would be a nice thing for him to do. I must agree with you.
Jennyfer on Facebook writes, "The skit was funny. I think if it was not a celeb, it wouldn`t have made the news. We are all human and all have our moments. He has apologized and I think everyone should move on."
I actually really agree with you, Jennyfer. It just was one of those things. I`m sure he feels remorseful.
But have - you know what? I - I fly a lot, and anybody that does, you agree with me, haven`t you felt these days like you`re really treated like not like a human being on those flights?
And I - I feel for the flight attendants. This is not in any - I`m not being critical of flight attendants at all. They`ve got an impossible job. More people, smaller space, in and out, no time on the ground. You know, so many issues going on with the airlines and - and their finances these days.
I feel for the flight attendants, but my goodness. And some of them are outstanding, but the ones that have been burned out by the public, we feel it.
Angela tweets, "Celebrities put their socks on one foot at a time just like everyone else and it is about time they were treated like it." Hear, hear. No - no quarrel with that.
And finally, Janet writes, "The skit is absolutely hilarious. Frankly, I don`t think it was an ego move. I think he was poking fun at himself -" and that`s what we love about Alec. He does not take himself too seriously, and that is something genuine about him.
As someone who has met him, I will tell you, that`s true.
Next, a stalker story you will not believe.
And later, a grandmother shoots her son-in-law at pointblank range. He have that all. It`s caught on tape. You will see it.
Oh, my goodness, there`s the perpetrator right there, and then the stalking stories. You`ll want to hear them, coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Stalks and stalkers. An investment banker crosses not only boundaries but borders an ocean, chasing his ex-lover in a transatlantic obsession. What drives stalkers to such extremes?
And later, if you thought your in-laws were trouble, listen to this. A Florida grandmother shoots her son-in-law twice at point blank range. At issue, a bitter divorce. Why do breakups and separations push people to such intense hatred?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Tonight, he was perfect on paper, but he turned into a nightmare ex. A young handsome, wealthy investment banker seemed like the perfect catch until he began stalking his ex-girlfriend, even after she moved halfway across the world to get away from him. Watch this tape.
PINSKY (voice-over): They worked together at JPMorgan in New York and quickly fell in love. Ivy League graduate, David Gray seemed perfect, and Daniella Rausnitz fell for him, even though he was married. But their love affair quickly turned into a nightmare as David began to stalk Daniella. He got so mad she moved to London just to put distance between them.
But David refused to give up. He flew back and forth across the Atlantic to follow her. He even allegedly tried to change his flights so they`d be on the same plane. She claims he broke into her apartment and planted a tracking device in her phone, hacked her e-mail, and even falsely claimed his sister had died in a desperate attempt to get her attention.
It finally ended when David allegedly showed up at the London hotel where his ex and her father were hiding from him. To get inside, he pretended to be an Israeli spy. He told police he had tape recorded with a bug hidden under their bed at home and urgently needed to speak with her. A British court convicted David Gray of harassment last week. He was discharged on the condition that he stay away from her.
PINSKY (on-camera): Daniella Rausnitz wept in court as she described how Gray`s actions left her scared, unable to sleep, and forced her to take a leave of absence from work. So, we`re going to discuss here with my panel what makes love turn into obsession.
Straight to my guest, Wendy Segall is Los Angeles County deputy district attorney. She`s worked on celebrity stalking cases here in Los Angele, clinical psychologist, Dr. Ramani Durvasula, is here, and model and reality TV personality, Claudia Jordan joins us. She`s actually been the victim of stalking. Claudia, does this sound familiar, this case we`re talking about tonight?
CLAUDIA JORDAN, MODEL, ACTRESS WAS A VICTIM OF STALKING: It does. And even -- I mean, mine wasn`t a relationship, but it`s like people take little signs and they think they`re so big. You know, they really mean something to them. So, this guy was relentless as well.
PINSKY: So, this is somebody that came up to you, got an autograph or something, and then twisted, you`re actually saying hello to him and to you`re in love with me.
JORDAN: He approached me. We had a mutual friend. He told me he had a project he wanted to discuss with me, and the friend that he said he knew was very credible. So, I gave him my information, and then, he just took that and ran with it and thought I was the one.
PINSKY: Wow! I want to remind people, that David and Daniella with the case were hooked in the story, met at work when David was already married. They allegedly started the affair, and at one point, David offered to leave his wife for his mistress. Take a look at this. Here is his wedding announcement from "The New York Times."
So, Ramani, I mean, just because the guy is married doesn`t mean he`s immune to love addiction which is really what I think started this, is it not? Something like that?
RAMANI DURVASULA, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. Mental illness doesn`t know that you`re married. I mean, the fact is is that, this kind of behavior has a lot to do with misreading social queues. It could have to do with frank psychosis.
It can also be associated with certain kinds of personality disorders where if a person feels abandoned, they simply can`t tolerate it and will do anything in their power to get that person back even if it means risking everything they`ve got, and they just don`t know how to work their way through it.
PINSKY: And Windy, this is an area of specialization for you. You`re dealing with people that engage in these behaviors all the time. Can you help us understand, you know, the spectrum of what this is and how serious it is?
WENDY SEGALL, L.A. COUNTY DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, it`s very serious. The suspect in the criminal aspect often misreads or misinterprets what the object of their desire.
PINSKY: Let`s called it a victim.
SEGALL: The victim is feeling for them. In my arena, there`s two types of cases, the jilted ex-lover --
PINSKY: Which is sort of this one we talked about tonight.
PINSKY: And then?
SEGALL: And then, I also have the cases where it`s complete strangers. A lot of the celebrity cases, the suspect misreads what they see in a movie, what they see in an autograph, a smile as you said, and takes that to another level where they believe that they`re destined to be with that person.
PINSKY: That latter case, isn`t that go into the zone what we call psychotic stalking, where they really are sort of not connected to reality? It can get really wild sometimes.
PINSKY: Ramani, you`re saying yes. Tell me about that.
DURVASULA: That form of delusional disorder is actually called Declarenbo (ph) disorder where a person actually believes they have a true relationship with the famous person engaging in a correspondence with them, even though there`s nothing back, and they really believe it. And sometimes, they`re able to function quite normally in their lives while keeping this very bizarre space around this one famous person.
PINSKY: That`s the part, I think, people have trouble hanging their hat on. It was like, this guy that was the investment banker, listen to some of the things this guy is accused of doing. His ex says he sent her - - this ex meaning the victim -- 176 text messages and 23 e-mails over the course of just in 16 hours. Sound a little manic (ph) too, Ramani.
PINSKY: She says he used an old key to enter her apartment. He collapsed in front of her at Heathrow Airport. He was faking that. I think he was claimed to have a heart attack. He flew to London to follow her four times and he`s accused of breaching his bail by following her to a restaurant the night before his court date.
United Kingdom court banned him from contacting the victim if he`s in the U.K. but has no part to stop to contacting him -- from contacting her in America. Wendy, is this also sort of common that even after the courts put down some structure, they still can`t contain it?
SEGALL: Oh, absolutely. We were talking earlier about the restraining orders. And in terms of a criminal case, a restraining order is the best thing for a criminal case in terms of the prosecution, to show that the victim does not want to have contact with that person. However, in reality, often times, restraining orders do not work.
PINSKY: They keep going.
PINSKY: But now, do most of these people once you say get a case and take it to court, do they go to prison or if they haven`t done anything horrible or do they go for treatment, and what is the sort of -- how does the court look at these things?
SEGALL: A lot of times, the person is usually eligible for probation. They don`t -- a lot of times, they don`t have criminal records, so the court gives them a --
PINSKY: A chance for treatment.
SEGALL: Exactly. And so --
PINSKY: Do people usually embrace that? They welcome the treatment?
PINSKY: They do.
SEGALL: A lot of the people have stopped taking medication, have never been on medication, and that`s probably the best thing we can do. In other cases, I have sentenced people to state prison.
PINSKY: That`s when they`re really getting threatening or dangerous.
SEGALL: Dangerous or they have done this before. They are convicted of stalking with a prior stalking, they go to prison.
PINSKY: Claudia, let`s pull the curtain back a little bit, you and I. We`ve both been helped by Wendy, right?
PINSKY: I was victim of a psychotic stalking and you had somebody who`s similar, kind of psychotic stalking, although, that kind of dangerous for you, didn`t it?
JORDAN: It did. One day, the screen was taken off my back window, and I got text message about things that were going on in my house. So, I knew he had come to my house, and he doesn`t have a car. So, to go that far, and I live up in the mountains.
PINSKY: I mean, that must have been very frightening for you. Did you move out?
JORDAN: I haven`t move out yet. I was planning on moving while he was in jail, prison, but I haven`t done it yet. But, I sleep with a knife under my bed, I do. And I had a lot of nightmares about it and a lot of anxiety and stress.
PINSKY: I`ll tell you my story. I don`t know if you know the story, Wendy, but the Pasadena police were got involved, because (INAUDIBLE) my problem, even though the guy was showing up in my place at work, and my wife got involved and told the Pasadena (ph), look away he`s writing here. He was talking about hurting my children.
And she goes, I am not afraid to die. I`m not afraid to die. I`m going to get this guy if you don`t get him -- it was like calm down. Calm down. We`ll take care of this. Wendy, we appreciate what you did. It was very quick and very -- it was very kind for the victimizer, the perpetrator, because they`re not well and they can get a lot better. Ramani, the outlook is actually OK for them if they follow treatment.
DURVASULA: If they follow treatment and if there is follow through. I think the difficulty is the lack of follow through. I think we might put them through one course of treatment, and then, that lack of follow --
PINSKY: I have 15 seconds. Is that true they don`t kind of follow through? For Claudia and I is whether we`re not going to sleep well tonight or not?
SEGALL: When I allow someone to have probation, they have to go to psychological counseling and testing --
PINSKY: For long periods of time.
SEGALL: -- for a long period of time.
PINSKY: Which improves the outcome.
Guys, this panel is going to stay with me, because we`ve got something interesting coming up. The line between a genuinely dangerous stalker and just somebody that`s been into really, really, really, bad blind date. You`re going to see a crazy e-mail from the date from hell that went viral. We`ll have the panel talk about it. We will tell you about that next.
PINSKY: Tonight, a perfect on paper investment banker relentlessly stalks his ex-girlfriend. He broke into her house, send her hundreds of messages, and refused to stop following her even after she moved across the Atlantic to escape him. His attorney says, he was just a harmless, lovelorn fool. Now, we`ve all seen the movie "Fatal Attraction" speaking of lovelorn fools.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve got to see you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has got to stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: no, it`s not going to stop. It`s going to go on and on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She keeps calling you a partner.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any time Beth answers the phone, she hangs up. I`m scared, Jimmy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, where is that line between a dangerous stalker and a persistent heartbroken ex? How can you tell the difference it`s been a really, really bad date and the potential stalker? Does love make us crazy or do crazy things or some people are crazy? They already have mental health issues. Ramani, where is that line?
DURVASULA: I mean, I think that line, you have to trust your gut. You have to know, does this make feel uncomfortable? Is the person becoming intimate too fast? You know, trying to encroach themselves my life too quickly. And if -- the problem is in this sort of romance culture we have, like, oh, it`s intense. Intense is not as kind of a scary word early in a relationship.
PINSKY: Right. Intensity, we always tell people that get into love addiction, which is one of the routes into this kind of stalking behaviors that think butterflies, not lightning bolts, because intensity -- speaking of intensity, and I want to show you guys something at home. We came across -- it`s funny, but it`s a real serious e-mail that has leaked online that sort of making the rounds.
This -- apparently, it was a first date with a woman who never returns multiple texts and phone calls from a guy named Mike. So, Mike Googles her e-mail address and writes her a pretty creepy e-mail. Check this out. Here`s a quote from it. Quote, "I suggest you make a sincere apology to me," this after one date mind you, "for giving me mixed signals. I feel led on by you."
Things that happened during our date include but are not limited to the following: You played with your hair a lot. A woman playing with her hair is a sign of flirtation. When woman plays with her hair, she is preening. Thank you for that. We have lots of eye contact during our date. On a permanent basis, I`ve never had as much eye contact during a date as I did with you." The e-mail goes on for two solid pages the flurry of words.
The thing is pasted on our Facebook page. Ramani, this is one date. Does she call it -- well, let me ask Wendy, does she call her attorney right now and get a restraining order?
SEGALL: I don`t think she would qualify for a restraining order, but I would change my e-mail address. I would change a lot of things.
PINSKY: This is where it starts, right?
SEGALL: And stalkers love to write. They love to write.
PINSKY: What do you mean, Ramani? You`re saying yes.
DURVASULA: This excessive verbal production, again, it`s misinterpretation of queues. He misinterpreted the hair, using too many words, too much communication. This doesn`t feel right. So, for her to cut communication and as Wendy said change the e-mail addresses and stop the route of entry.
PINSKY: And I think one of the instincts people have is to try to, maybe this case it`s obvious you need to cut, but one of the instinct people have is, like, we`ll all reach out to them and tell them this is not OK, please stop. That`s exactly the wrong move, isn`t it?
SEGALL: Well, I think it`s OK to say to stop. I think that is the right move.
SEGALL: And to document that.
PINSKY: Even in this case, say, please stop, no more e-mails.
PINSKY: But leave it -- they keep it simple and quick. Claudia, ever try anything that? You were tried to --
JORDAN: I tried. I tried to do that, and then, it became exciting and I think to him. He started to argue with me more. And then, he decided to insult me, and then, he tried to extort me money to leave me alone.
So, I`ve had other people in the audience of the show that wrote me on, you know, found me online or whatever, saying, like, you looked me in the eye and you don`t remember me. I met you like nine years ago. I was in the audience, amongst 400 people.
PINSKY: And although, you know, Claudia gets these romantic attractions that become stalking. It`s not limited to male-female relationship. There can be friendship, people stalk for years afterwards. You`re saying yes. Give me an example of that.
DURVASULA: Absolutely. It can be friendships. It can be work colleagues. It can be neighbors. I mean, again, we`re talking about a fixation, an unwillingness to let go so much so that it feels traumatic.
PINSKY: And people hang onto these things for years and years.
DURVASULA: Absolutely. Absolutely for years. And that`s where it becomes key to document, document, document. You are your best advocate, and that data may be all you`ve got in a court of law to really become protected.
PINSKY: What would the treatment be for something like that that`s in a friendship situation? So, there`s no longer the love addiction realm is that again psychotic stalking, personality disorders?
DURVASULA: Exactly. It`s all the things we talked about. It`s just maybe sort of a less romantic more of just fixation.
PINSKY: More straight mental health.
DURVASULA: Yes. More straight mental health. It could be medication, it could be psychotherapy. Very likely a combination of the two, and consistent follow-up.
PINSKY: And Wendy, just gave you a great compliment. Aside from Claudia, she said I`m the best victim she`s ever had. So, aside from Claudia, of course, but it was great point. Because I do have concern for the people. I mean, I`m sure, Ramani, if you were become a victim of stalking, you have concern for the person that is the stalker because you know it`s the deep mental health issue, profound.
JORDAN: And what do you do to protect yourself?
PINSKY: That`s why Wendy is in my life and yours too.
JORDAN: Do I cut myself off? Do I avoid eye contact with strangers? Do I have to like take myself off the map with social media?
PINSKY: Wendy, what is it? Well, she said stop the twittering, Claudia.
SEGALL: I know in Claudia`s case, she would often say where she was going, and you are a person that`s concerned with stalking, that is one of the things that you need to limit. In terms of the internet, it`s great in terms of prosecutorial --
PINSKY: Because you have a track record.
SEGALL: I have a track record. On the other hand, it makes stalkers -- it makes their job easier.
PINSKY: I bet it inflame stalkers, too. The internet seems to inflame all these mental health issues, doesn`t it? You know, whether it`s sex addiction or stalking or -- this is so much stuff, bullying. We keep talking about the internet. The internet is created a more efficient marketplace for mental health issues to flourish.
So, thank you Wendy, thank you, Claudia. Ramani stays with me for the next segment.
PINSKY: All this week, HLN is showcasing the return of the troops to American soil after nearly nine years of war. As of today, there are just 6,000 American troops left in Iraq. They should all be out by the end of the year. Some troops are home tonight celebrating the holidays with their families in Fort Hood, Texas. HLN captured the moment as a battalion reunited with their families. Watch this.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dismissed!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any way to describe what it feels like to have your dad back after so long?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one sense, I feel happy that it`s over with, and that we`re getting all the rest of them out. Then you kind of look back at the sacrifices that our soldiers have made and our family members have made.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m very, very excited. It`s been a long time coming, and we miss him very much. He`s my best friend. He is my husband. He is my rock.
PINSKY: It`s emotional to watch. And I know we all feel that it`s great these troops are enjoying time with their families, particularly now, we`re in the holidays. But they`ll now be contemplating a serious issue, which is life after the military, after living with sniper fire and roadside bombs.
They have to transition to a civilian life and find jobs in a difficult economy. It`s the end of one journey and the beginning of another. Please, let`s all support our troops. Let`s get them to work here stateside. We welcome them home as well, and thank you, thank you, for your service.
Next, a grandmother allegedly guns down her son-in-law in front of her house, and this is all caught on tape. It is a tape you are not going to want to miss. We`re going to watch it after the break. And Dr. Durvasula and I are going to try to break it down. And remember, you can go to HLNtv.com. Check out our must see, must share stories, and find out what made today`s HLN top ten. Stay with us. We`ll be back on the other side of the break.
PINSKY: Caught on tape. A Florida grandmother is accused of shooting her son-in-law in front of her home. Now, what you`re about to see is graphic. So, be careful here, but I want to stress that the man was not killed, but it`s tough to watch. It all happened when 39-year-old Salvatore Miglino went to pick up his son for a court ordered visitation. He was recording this on his iPhone because he expected a confrontation, but he did not anticipate this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, oh! I can`t believe you did that! I can`t believe you did that! What are you, crazy? (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Get of me. You shot me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get off me! (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Get off me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You shot me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Miglino fled, called police, and was treated for gunshot wounds. Miglino says his mother-in-law tried to lure him inside the house. He refused. She started shooting. There`s the scene there. Joining me, licensed clinical psychologist, Ramani Durvasula. Now, here we are again. So much of what we hear about in the headlines is about mental health.
DURVASULA: Yes, it is.
PINSKY: Is it not?
DURVASULA: This is about mental health, right here.
PINSKY: You know, and it goes into criminal behavior.
DURVASULA: Sure it does.
PINSKY: How can we help people understand? This, we were talking about stalking and all this stuff tonight. The distinction between mental health issue and criminal, and they obviously overlap a lot.
DURVASULA: Sure they do. I mean, again, criminal behavior is abnormal behavior. It goes against the norms of our society. Now, mental illness is something that makes somebody uncomfortable. For example, the person is depressed and can`t work. That`s mental illness. This stuff, this violence.
This extends to making a trial and says by having a gun with their grandmother. There are numerous things going on, but I mean, in this case, clearly, he thought something was going to go down, yet, his camera rolling when he went to go see his mother-in-law --
PINSKY: -- sort of violent altercation, not violent gunshots. And it`s like "Boardwalk Empire" kind of thing going on here.
PINSKY: But I think that this is probably somebody with probably characterological, probably extreme rage.
DURVASULA: Yes, yes.
PINSKY: Who now graduates into criminal behaviors.
PINSKY: At a certain point, this is what makes people angry, I think, angry with me and angry with those of us in mental health. They think we`re making excuses for these behaviors. So, how do you make people understand just because we come up with an explanation, we`re not making an excuse for it.
DURVASULA: We`re not making an excuse, but we may potentially have a solution. If we can frame it correctly and figure out what the cause of this is, then we may be able to treat it, whether through therapy, whether through medication, whether through support. And remember, stress can often inflame these symptoms.
Custody situations are very stressful situations. So, if you already have a baseline of mental illness, you add this stress of this, this is where these things explode. And that`s what they are, exploding.
PINSKY: And in my world, the substances are the thing that make the big issue.
DURVASULA: Yes. Yes. In the world of mental health, we want to be able to describe, explain predicting control behavior. That`s what we want to do. And when we know what`s going on with a person, we might be able to do that and stop this. This could have been really, really tragic.
PINSKY: That`s the point. The constant refrain here tonight which is, if you`re thinking about harming a little kid, if you`re thinking about stalking somebody, if you know somebody`s doing this, please get help, treatment works. Thank you, Dr. Durvasula.
A few words before we go. Two stories we covered tonight. As I said, the man stalking and the grandmother, even the pedophilia make me think of one thing, our country`s health crises as we`re talking about here, the mental health issues are bleeding into these criminal behaviors. We think of them as criminals, but as you`ve seen tonight, it`s mental health issues, lack of attention to mental health, and by the way, lack of access to mental health treatment.
All sorts of behaviors, stalking, shooting, results of mental -- severe mental health crises and our lack of resources and lack of sophistication about this. Thanks for watching.