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Real-Life "Fatal Attraction"
Aired December 19, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Is accused murderer Jodi Arias the next Casey Anthony? Why her trial may be the media event of 2012.
Plus, the incest prank, parents kissing their blindfolded teen children on the lips at a school event. Yuck!
And we will meet the "One Boy USO," Cody Jackson.
Let`s get started.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLENN CLOSE, ACTRESS: I got to see you.
MICHAEL DOUGLAS, ACTOR: This got to stop.
CLOSE: No, it`s not going to stop. It`s going to go on and on. And if you play fair with me, I`ll play fair with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That, of course, was Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction," the signature film about obsessive lovers and stalking.
Now, we talked last week about romantic fixation becoming dangerous. But tonight, we may have what perhaps is the worst case scenario. Take a look at this.
PINSKY (voice-over): Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander were young adults with bright futures. For a time, it looked like a storybook romance, though when Travis broke up with Jodi it became more of a suspense thriller. There were reports of obsessive texts, harassment, even slashed tires. Then, on June 9, 2088 friends discovered Travis` body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m standing (INAUDIBLE). I`m standing in his bedroom and there`s lots of blood.
PINSKY: He`s been shot in the face, stabbed 27 times, and his throat was slit from ear to ear. Friends told police about Jodi and a week later she was arrested. The evidence damning. Obsessive jealousy, DNA allegedly linking Arias to the crime, and a bloody hand print police say is hers.
Investigators say they even have pictures of the body taken by the killer. The case feels disturbingly like that of Casey Anthony - a shocking murder, a beautiful femme fatale and an elaborate improbable alibi. And there are similarities between their behaviors behind bars. Is Jodi Arias the next Casey Anthony?
PINSKY: Well, the case, of course, shocked a community, devastated Travis Alexander`s family and friends and created a media frenzy. So we`re going to discuss it with a panel.
Joining me is Criminal Defense Attorney Mark Eiglarsh; Criminal Profiler Pat Brown; and True Crime author Shanna Hogan.
Police say they recovered a camera at the scene with even sexually explicit images and a picture of Travis` dead body.
Pat, what the heck? Help us understand why a murderer would take a picture of the body?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, she was enjoying herself at that point, Dr. Drew.
I really want to bring something up. We tend to give women too much of a break. Let`s reverse the roles here. Let`s assume this was a guy who did this.
We have seen so many of these cases where the girl breaks up with the guy and he obsesses about her and he calls her and he says, "Let me see you one more time." Or, "Let`s get back together." She is nice. She goes to give him closure. They get - they have a talk. She says, "No, I don`t want to get back together." And all along his plan if she says no, I`m going to kill her. And he does.
And that is all I see happening with Jodi. Same type of thing, she gave him his chance. He turned it down at the end, she killed him. So if she were a guy, we wouldn`t even be talking about this. We just call him a psychopath and a creep and a domestic abuser. We put him away.
Because it`s a woman, we`re like, oh, what are her problems? I wonder why she thinks this way. I wonder what happened in her childhood. We give her too much of a break. She is what she is, a cold-blooded murderer.
PINSKY: Well, Pat - I like that profile, but you said she`s enjoying herself when she was killing him, that`s why she took the picture. There are really freakish cases where people sort of get off on the murders. Is that what you`re implying here with her?
BROWN: Absolutely. In all of these cases where you have a domestic abuser, in a sense (ph) that`s what she was, a stalker, someone obsessed with a guy, someone who can`t accept the fact that he would dump her and she would lose, she has to have that final moment of winning. That`s the big thrill.
It`s like, OK, you turn me down, you are not going to walk away from this, I am going to win. And so at that moment, she is thrilled because she had actually - she`s beaten him. And he`s never going to get to go after this other women any more.
PINSKY: OK. So it`s the power and the thrill. It`s not some weird sexual thing as it sometimes is?
BROWN: Definitely. I think she`s just thrilled that she - she got to say check mate.
PINSKY: All right. Mark, what do you think this all means for the case?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the good news is that prosecutors in this case and every murder case never has to prove motive. Pat`s theory is a good one, and she`s good at what she does, but there could be other reasons and other feelings that she had when she was killing him.
The good news is we don`t have to speculate. When her bloody hand print is on the wall and it`s mixed with the decedent`s blood and also you`ve got statements that are inconsistent. One minute there`s two people that burst into the house and killed him. Next minute, oh, yes, I did it in self defense. That coupled with all the physical evidence, this is similar to Casey Anthony in that apparently God gave her a pretty shell, but it`s very different because the evidence seems to be overwhelming linking her to the crime scene and the body itself.
PINSKY: Yes. Mark, I`m tempted to get out my cowboy hat. You and I have sat in these satellite windows before and discussed this exact same scenario it seems like. And as Pat is saying, it is not all that uncommon.
But I`ve done a lot of thinking about Casey Anthony since that case happened. And it`s increasingly clear to me in her case that there was something neurobiologically wrong, even though I talked to psychiatrist that didn`t detect it, they really didn`t do that kind of testing, I`m convinced to that.
Do you think that`s the kind of thing that`s going on here? This is - let`s call it a diseased brain if you want to call it anything else. And does that mean anything for this case? It just sort of proving it and that`s it, is that all that is required?
EIGLARSH: It depends which phase we`re talking about. They`re seeking the death penalty in this case. So if she`s found guilty, what you`re talking about will have a lot of relevance in the penalty phase. They`ll come up with reasons why she did it, why you should spare her life. But in the guilt phase, if I`m the prosecutor, I stay away from that, because you start to get into speculation. You don`t need to.
Did she do it? Yes. Was it first degree murder? Hell, yes. Bye- bye.
PINSKY: OK. Author Shanna Hogan - or Shanna, I think your name is pronounced. I`m sorry. You have covered this case extensively. And we`re drawing some, you know, we`re drawing some similarities here to old Casey Anthony, the changing alibis, the story changes, the lies, the distortion, the strangely sort of, you know, lackadaisical attitude in jail. Can you expound on this for us?
SHANNA HOGAN, TRUE CRIME AUTHOR: I definitely see similarities between Jodi Arias and Casey Anthony. These are both beautiful, young women in the prime of their lives. These are both women who committed the most unthinkable acts imaginable and they`re both well documented liars. Jodi Arias -
PINSKY: Shanna, I got to interrupt you. I have to interrupt you real quickly. There`s a video playing alongside of you. If the control room would reset that video again, I would appreciate it. It`s still rolling. But set it again with the two, Casey, there they are.
I want the viewers to just use your gut and look at those two women and trust what your gut tells you when - when you look at them and you think about the stories that are playing out in their life. Just think about that feeling you get. It is a very peculiar feeling that I personally am not accustomed to, if you really tune into what they evoke.
So I`m sorry, Jodi - Shanna, rather. Keep telling us about this, what she did behind bars because that`s kind of what we`re looking at right now.
HOGAN: Yes. And I think what Pat said earlier is right. Throughout history, women have been dismissed as being killers because they thought they were too demure or too innocent to commit such a horrible act. And what we`ve like learned in the last couple of decades is that they are every bit as capable of doing the most heinous acts just as men are.
PINSKY: And Pat, do you know what I`m talking about when I looked at that video? I don`t know if you`re able to see the video I`m watching at the same time, but these women evoke a strange, eerie emptiness when you look at them, at least in me, that`s what is evoked.
BROWN: That`s pretty typical of psychopathy. They almost have this deadness in their eyes. And if you have been in contact with them, you just want to go home and take a shower. It`s like you`ve been with a snake.
And what`s very interesting, what we`re going to probably see happen, I think she`ll get convicted because the evidence is overwhelming. But what happens after these women are in prison is that we see they immediately start getting fan clubs because they do have this outwardness that they can - this friendliness they can put out there, and they can start saying, oh, hey were either - they were either abused women, that`s why you should feel sorry for me, or I went crazy, I don`t remember any of it.
They will have some excuse and there will be this huge fan club and they`ll be trying to set her free because she`s this poor, beautiful, abused woman. And it`s really appalling when we see that happen for the family of the victim.
PINSKY: That - that will be - yes, that will be very interesting to see if that in fact happens. I`ll be anxious to pull together a jury of those folks and confront them about this. Because the fact is while we can understand what creates these kinds of - I`ll call them brain disorders, because that`s really what they are, that doesn`t excuse them. That doesn`t make them OK. It`s is not a defense for them. It`s just an explanation for how it could happen.
Shanna, thanks for joining us. You are leaving us on this segment. But coming up, we`re going to continue this conversation about whether or not Jodi is like Casey Anthony. And, of course, Mark and Pat, stay with me.
And a close friend of Travis Alexander, who is actually on the phone when his body was discovered, is here with me. We`ll hear what he has to say after this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you in love with Travis?
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF MURDER: I think that being in love and loving someone are two different things, and there was a point in time where we were in love, but it was short-lived.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you guys break up?
ARIAS: There was sort of a breach of trust in our relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On your part?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you explain that your DNA was found at the murder scene?
ARIAS: Well, I spent a lot of time at his house. But because it`s more than just that kind of DNA, there is an explanation for all of that, and that will all be made known very soon. Again, it doesn`t prove that I committed a murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jodi Arias, accused in the brutal 2008 killing of her former boyfriend, Travis Alexander. And if you want to know how screwed up men are, the males in this room here are going, oh, she`s so hot, he shouldn`t have tried to break up with her. That`s all then she wouldn`t have killed him.
Yes. Mark, thank you for the uh. Thank you, guys, for giving me thumbs up. We should get pictures of these guys.
I`m back with Criminal Profiler Pat Brown, Criminal Defense Attorney Mark Eiglarsh and close friend of victim, Taylor Searle. Taylor, you were actually on the phone with friends when they discovered Travis` body and called the police. Here was the 911 recording from that day.
(BEGIN AUDIO TAPE)
DISPATCHER: 911 Emergency.
CALLER: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom. His roommate just went in there and said there`s a lot of blood.
ROOMMATE: He`s dead. He`s in his bedroom. He`s dead in the shower.
DISPATCHER: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?
CALLER: Yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that`s been bothering him, and following him and slashing tires and things like that.
CALLER: There`s a girl that`s been stalking him.
(END AUDIO TAPE)
PINSKY: Taylor, it seems like, my God, they jumped immediately to - to Jodi, right?
TAYLOR SEARLE, FRIEND OF VICTIM: Yes. I mean, pretty much everyone who`s close to him had heard him talking for weeks about how, well, in his words she was stalking him and wouldn`t leave him alone.
PINSKY: My understanding is you two had some very serious concerns about her. And, by the way, listen. We`re - I`m sorry about your friend. I mean, we`re talking about this as though -
PINSKY: -- it`s, you know, a magazine article. This is your friend, and I just want to say how sorry we are for that. But we are going to be focusing on Jodi and trying to get justice for - for Travis.
PINSKY: So what was it about her that really disturbed you? We understand you had concerns way back.
SEARLE: Well, I never got the best vibes from her and I really didn`t spend too much time with them together. Most of my concerns came from conversations I had with him, and he would just express that he was really anxious to get away from her, and he was really glad when she left the state.
A lot of - a lot of my concerns came from when he kind of read to me some messages he sent to her, telling her that he didn`t want anything to do with their friendship anymore, and this was after they had broken up and remained friends. And he pretty much told her that he wanted her out of his life.
And I just remember telling him after he read to me what he wrote that, you know, aren`t you concerned that she`s going to try to hurt you or something, because he had a really good way with words and he just had a very strongly worded, you know, your parents would be ashamed of you type message to her, just stay away from me. And, yes, I mean, that`s the last conversation we had about her. So that`s kind of why it was fresh in my mind.
PINSKY: Taylor, didn`t I hear that some of your friends actually had concerns about just the look in her eye and that they didn`t want their kids around her. That there was this sort of conversation already under way before he got rid of her.
SEARLE: Yes. And most of those stories I`ve heard after the fact, after he was murdered and she was arrested. I didn`t hear a lot of that before, so I didn`t - I never have those kinds of concerns for other people`s safety as much, but I have heard those people mention that they were really concerned about whether she was really a shady character or whatnot.
PINSKY: Another example of how Jodi`s behavior is oddly similar to Casey Anthony is this clip of her singing in a caroling competition last year. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: (SINGING "O HOLY NIGHT").
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Of course, Casey and Jodi both attractive on the surface, elaborate alibis that keep changing, strange behavior in jail, and listen to this, there`s a timeline similarity. Caylee was last seen just seven days after Travis` body was discovered.
Pat, between the singing, the smiling mug shot, do you see similarities between this case, Jodi`s and Casey Anthony?
BROWN: Well, we have both of them are manipulators and pathological liars, and it`s a really sad thing that people when they see this and they do, this is what Travis` friends are saying, we saw this in this woman and we`re creeped out. Even Travis was creeped out by the woman, said, "I don`t want to have anything to do with you."
But the sad part is usually this kind of people pick nice people to be around. We find the same thing is true with men who kill their girlfriends. The girlfriends are usually very sweet, wonderful people and they want to give everyone a chance.
So Travis obviously opened that door to her that day, let her come in. He gave her one more chance. She probably manipulated him. He felt sorry for it. He felt sweet towards her. He wanted whatever, old time sake type of thing. Never, never, never anybody, when you have a pathological lying psychopath into your life ever let them get near you and never, never trust them for even one second, because this is what can happen.
And she obviously brought the weapons with her, so she was planning to kill him if he didn`t cooperate.
PINSKY: Mark, the fact that the friends were only creeped out in retrospect, does that make any difference? Doe that have any implications in this case or is it really just could be about the facts in the room?
EIGLARSH: Well, I`ve read that there were some people who were concerned about her behavior even before then. He, the victim, had new tires after his tires were slashed, and then his new tires the next day were slashed. There were issues concerning this woman before this all happened, not only with the deceased himself, but also the friends, and that will come into play when prosecutors who I again suggest should not commit to a motive, but will throw this out there as an obvious possible motive. So it`s all going to come into play in the trial.
PINSKY: And I think, Pat, last question to you. I think everyone looks around them and go, do I know somebody like this? Somebody like this is not going to be able to maintain a stable relationship. It`s not as though you have to worry about, you know, people you`ve been involved with in your life who are not liars and who have never really exhibited things like this, is that accurate?
BROWN: Well, yes. I mean, basically what we need to look at in our own lives is, if you`re in a relationship with somebody, they should be cherishing us. They should be treating us well. They shouldn`t be doing things that we have to say, "Please don`t do that," and then they do it again with a smirk on their face.
If we feel that they are not treating us wonderfully, then there`s something wrong with that person. We need to get away from them, and I think we give people too much of a chance. Oh, he just has issues, he has problems. We minimize things. We shouldn`t judge him.
Yes, you should. You better judge, because unfortunately this is the kind of thing that can happen in the - in the long run.
PINSKY: I think you`re right. Pat, the - the thing to watch out for is "Glee," when people are harming somebody else.
BROWN: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark, Pat. And Taylor, thank you for joining us. Your questions about Jodi are next.
And, coming up, parents kissing their blindfolded and unaware teens on the lips. The school says it was a prank. We`ve got a whole panel to discuss that, so don`t go away.
PINSKY: Well, needless to say, the case of Jodi Arias is, if nothing, compelling. She`s accused of murdering her former boyfriend by shooting him in the face, slashing his throat and she allegedly stabbed him more than 20 times.
Let`s hear what you think about this. Mary in Virginia, go ahead.
MARY, BRISTOW, VIRGINIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Mary.
MARY: I just have a comment. I do think that Jodi killed Travis, and I also think that she might be a true psychopath. She`s emotionless when she`s talking about the event. There`s no sadness, fear, anger or anything except for her fake (ph) attempts at manipulating the interviewer with her view of the facts.
PINSKY: Yes, and - and we`ve been saying quite a bit tonight that it - it`s sort of reminiscent of Casey Anthony, isn`t it? She sort of lies and manipulates to whatever suits her. And there are definitely people that have certain areas of their brain that are not operating, where they cannot appreciate that other people certainly in certain situations exist.
And, as I say, it may be that she was in some sort of a violent - and people go into these blackouts or whiteouts when they become incredibly violent, but not everybody is capable of even going into that state. They have to have a lot of antecedent history. And, as we`ve heard, there was something about this woman that everyone was concerned about, and that`s where this story is going to unfold.
Amy in Pennsylvania, go ahead.
AMY, GETTYSBURG, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Amy.
AMY: I just have a few comments.
AMY: I have no doubt in my mind she is guilty. This is an eerie woman.
AMY: Just look at her mug shot.
AMY: It`s as if she is proud of it. Very creepy. Definitely she`s a type of person to watch for.
PINSKY: Yes, it is kind of creepy. And, again, the behavior behind bars, the - the disconnect and the behavior behind bars, again here we are. It wasn`t too many months ago we were talking about Casey behind bars and her behavior. We talked about other cases where people have been behind bars, behaving strangely. It does tell you something.
Lisa on Facebook writes, "I read that Jodi wanted to - wanted to desperately marry Travis and tried to get him to commit, to the point where she even joined the Mormon Church to grow closer to him. Your thoughts?"
Yes. I mean, we hear these stories that she mirrored every move. She literally tried to climb into his skin. And people - you know, everyone wants to ask me, you know, what is this kind - you know, what is this kind of jealousy about? It - it`s not about any one thing. There`s a lot of different disorders that lead to it. But one is an inability to tolerate abandonment, that there`s a psychotic process that kicks in then and they literally can`t tolerate it and violence is evoked.
Dana writes, "I don`t understand something. Jodi is supposedly the one who broke up with Travis. Yet, she is the one that became obsessed with him."
Again, that fits with this - what I described just a second ago, with this individual that can`t tolerate abandonment sometimes, in an attempt to take control of that abandonment, will be the one that sabotages and pushes away and abandon themselves. Somehow being in control of it and evoking the abandonment, although destructive to them, isn`t as shattering as having somebody just choosing to leave.
Courtney tweets, "Is it natural to feel jealous in a relationship?"
Of course it is. You care about that person. You don`t want to lose them. But there`s jealous, and then there`s jealous, and then there`s murderous jealousy, and that is categorically way out there.
Next, I want you to meet the most patriotic eight-year-old in the U.S. His name is Cody Jackson. He and his parents are here with me.
And if you want to know more about what you`re watching tonight, go on over to HLNtv.com. It is our easy to navigate, new website. Check out the top 10. We always try to get on that.
And we`ll talk also about parents making out with their kids. You don`t want to miss that conversation. Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Coming up, what`s being called the incest prank? Parents kiss their blindfolded teens at a pep rally. Some got a little too close. The school says it was intended as innocent fun, but it`s becoming infamous, thanks to YouTube. What were these people thinking?
But first, Cody Jackson is here. We last saw him welcoming home troops. Tonight, he`ll tell us about his one boy USO.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Well, often on this program, when the subject matter is children or young adults, we`re discussing bullying, drugs and alcohol, violence. Last week, it was hazing. Tonight, we have a different type of story. You just saw an example, a slight example of what Cody Jackson is all about. Here`s more. Take a look.
CODY JACKSON, GREETS TROOPS AT AIRPORT: Thank you for protecting us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
CODY JACKSON: I asked my mom how come it`s so hard to get on an airplane, because she told me about 9/11.
KEN JACKSON, CODY`S FATHER: He got so upset and wanted to thank these people for putting their life on the line for him. So, he comes to the airport, and now, he meets the soldiers. He thanks them for protecting them. He hands them a little piece of candy and salutes them and wishes them well.
I`m touched by what he`s doing at such an early age, and some of them have been taking pins and coins out of their pocket and giving it to him. He doesn`t want to take any of it. A lot of them are so touched about what he`s doing. They`re giving up some of their awards and medals to him.
I think it means a great deal to the serviceman and women when he goes up to them and thanks them. We see this, you know, big strong man or woman come through, they look like this. It`s not somebody you want to approach, and then, Cody goes up to them, starts to talk to them and you see them just light up. Even big grown men wiping tears away from their eyes after talking to him a few minutes. So, it`s very touch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know the words to describe it, honestly. I mean, to see a little kid like this to come in here and do what he`s doing, to think of us, you know, you see a lot of people who don`t, so somebody that small, it really tugs at your heart a whole lot. It makes everything we`re doing worth it.
PINSKY: And that extraordinary young eight-year-old is with us tonight. We welcome Cody Jackson and his parents, Kelly and Ken. Now, Cody, let me ask you first. What are you hoping to do by thanking the troops?
CODY JACKSON: Well, I want to give them candy and just help them and make them feel better.
PINSKY: You know, I went on your Facebook page, Cody, and I saw you out on an aircraft carrier, and you absolutely were bursting out of your skin with excitement. Was that an exciting day for you?
CODY JACKSON: Yes, sir, it was a very exciting day.
PINSKY: Is this what you hope to do one day, as yourself be in the military?
CODY JACKSON: Yes, sir.
PINSKY: Kelly, when did this all start? How did this get going. It`s so extraordinary. Tell us about it.
KELLY JACKSON, CODY`S MOTHER: Well, he was always just so excited over police and firemen and anything with lights and uniforms, but we had to get onto a plane, and he was four years old, and he wanted to know why everybody was so sad, why was it so difficult to get on to a plane, and we just let him know about 9/11 and hat happened, and, that now we have our soldiers trying to protect us from all bad guys in the world, and he just took the ball and ran with it.
PINSKY: Kelly, can you tell me about the donations and packages that Cody is collecting?
KELLY JACKSON: Cody has started to collect money. It wasn`t outwardly what we were trying to do, but people were just handing him cash. So, we started to take that money, and we were taking Cody down to Wal- Mart, and he would buy stuff for the soldiers, and we would put it to the boxes and ship it off. The last one we sent was to Afghanistan. So, that`s his new thing. He wants to make sure that the guys have what they need.
PINSKY: Is there a place that people can make donations to be sure that Cody continues his task?
KELLY JACKSON: You can go to his website, oneboyuso.com, and we do have PayPal there. And you can make whatever donation that you can to help him out.
PINSKY: Ken, I want to ask a question that`s tougher and I`ll ask it of you. Does anybody take it more negatively in this? Does anybody ever come to you and say, you shouldn`t let your kid do this kind of thing? Does he really understand what he`s talking about? And do you ever try to temper his enthusiasm for, you know, the pomp and uniforms with the reality of what this all means?
KEN JACKSON: You know, so far, no. We haven`t seen it, and with all the positive feedback that we`ve seen in the last few days on Facebook, it`s just been incredible with all of the support from the military families and the military soldiers themselves that are writing to Cody. We`re waiting and hoping the day doesn`t come, but so far, people just come up to him at the airport.
They`ll come up to us and see him, say what`s going on, what is he doing, why is he doing that. And, we explain it to them, and they`re like that is just really an incredible thing. So far, it`s just been nothing but wonderful support from everyone. It`s just really a wonderful feeling for us.
PINSKY: And Cody, I notice there in the video with you that you really picked up a very sharp snap in your salute. Where did you learn that?
CODY JACKSON: Well, my friend that he was a marine taught me that. And he taught me how to salute the proper way.
PINSKY: And Cody, let me ask you, what do you hope to do as a member of the military? What is your -- what are your dreams? What is it you hope to accomplish?
CODY JACKSON: Well, I want to be a sniper or a spy.
PINSKY: And, do you have any idea what the tasks might be? Just whatever you`re called upon to do, that`s just sort of a thing you`re interested in?
CODY JACKSON: I don`t really know that question.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s a tough question. And Ken, back to you, if that were my son, I`d be freaking out a little bit, I must tell you. There`s got to be people at home going oh!
KEN JACKSON: Yes, a little bit. You know, we know it`s a few years down the road. He has walked into a couple of army recruiting stations already and tried to see if he could sign up, and they`ve actually sat him down --
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness! I hope he didn`t go on his own.
KEN JACKSON: No, no, we were with him there. He asked what it was about. He saw the soldiers sitting inside at the desk, and we told him that`s where you`re going to sign up. And, you know, we turn around for a second, he`s in the door, sitting down at the desk, talking to one of the recruiters. So, he`s ready to do it. It does make us a little nervous.
PINSKY: Did they try to take him?
KEN JACKSON: No, they talked to him and said you come back and see us in ten years, and we will be happy to take you then.
PINSKY: And in the meantime, is he planning to go to military academy or anything of that sort?
KEN JACKSON: You know, we have found out about Riverside Military School which is just up the road from us, and he is very excited about that, and we`re going to take him on a tour and take a look at that and see what it`s all about and let him get a firsthand look at what really happens at the military school. That`s all he`s talking about now is going to visit and joining the military school.
PINSKY: Well, Cody, whether you pursue a career in military or not, you`ve done those in the military presently a great service, and you`ve also served the country, made your parents and I think all of us proud. Teach me how to salute, will you? And we`ll say good night. How do you salute? There you go, sir. All right. That`s it. Thanks, Cody. Thanks, Ken, Kelly.
Next, the prank -- thank you ladies and gentlemen.
Next, the prank that, in fact, disgusted a lot of people. There it is. But apparently, not those involved. Did parents really kiss their grown children on the mouth at a school pep rally? Yuck! Stay tuned.
PINSKY: Tonight, a kissing contest, but with mom and dad. A Minnesota high school pulls a prank that, I think, would make (INAUDIBLE) uncomfortable. They blindfolded students at a pep rally and then tricked them into making out with their own parents. That`s right, you heard me right.
Captains of the school sport teams were lined up against the wall -- just that part is a little troubling -- wearing blindfolds. They were told they would be kissed by, quote, "someone special" that they did not know. In fact, that person would be the opposite sex parents. And there`s only one thing I could say about that when the producers presented this story to me which was WTF. Here it is from YouTube.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Woman with luscious lips.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dads made out with their daughters, sons seem to be groping their moms. What is going on? What kind of parent would hear about this and say, I`m in, that`s a great idea, I`m in. We tried to reach parents and students but did not hear back. So, we`re going straight to my guests to discuss this.
Comedian and star of E!`s "After Lately." Of course, that`s Sunday at 11:00 p.m., Heather McDonald, attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and CNN education contributor, Steve Perry. So, Steve, I want to go to you first. What did you think of the video?
STEVE PERRY, CNN EDUCATION CONTRIBUTOR: I think I threw up a little bit in my mouth when I watched it.
PERRY: And I know that we actually did the same thing, but it didn`t have to go that way. You don`t have the parent kiss the kid on the mouth. We did with a parent cable kissed the kid on the cheek. It was very innocent, very sweet, and we told them that it`s cheerleader was going to kiss him.
PINSKY: But Steve, did we overreact? Are we overreacting here? We`re going to have fun with this, trust me, but you know, it`s a time when these sorts of issues and we`ve been covering nothing but horrible, disgusting issues about boundary problems with adults and kids for the last -- you know, since Casey Anthony, frankly.
But isn`t it a little bit problematic, even if it sort of, I don`t know, if it encourages kids to be sort of indifferent to these issues?
PERRY: I think it went too far, but we could overreact. There`s a big world and there are a lot of issues going on in education, but if we`re going to have fun with something, we may as well have fun with that. Parents kissing their kids on the mouth, it`s like a Howard Stern, it`s just wrong episode.
PINSKY: Well, I`m not going to bother Howard on this one. I`m going to show you a piece of tape from an SNL skit that occurred to me immediately. It`s a recurring sort of character. In this particular case, it`s kissing family Thanksgiving. Check this out from NBC.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who`s out here, better not be burglars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom, it`s us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jacob, look at you. You got home early. You look so handsome. You cut your braids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. The guys at prudential didn`t really like the reggae look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, is that domino? Did you order any pizza?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up, dad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, Mr. Prudential. Big desk, everything, big boss?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lucy, this is my brother, Dwayne.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Dwayne to you, short stack. Come in here. Hey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How was your flight?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up.
PINSKY: Heather, I know that just, you know, like thanksgiving at the McDonald household, I understand, but what do you think of all this?
HEATHER MCDONALD, STAR, E!`S "AFTER LATELY": Actually, when I first saw it, I did not think it was that bad.
PINSKY: Of course, you didn`t. There has got to be pictures of you making out with your kids out there somewhere?
MCDONALD: My boys are nine and five, OK? And I really do just love kissing them. I guess, I think it`s a little bit --
PINSKY: Heather, be careful. Mark Eiglarsh, an attorney is on the other end. He might choose to do something with this.
MCDONALD: I just saying like -- and I started this thing when they were very young where I`d say, you know, they`d say, can I have some milk, and I`d be like for a kiss. Like basically, they`d have to give me affection just to survive in the house.
I know that`s wrong to do, but like just the other day, we were out at a play place, and I looked at my son`s little face, the nine-year-old, and I did kiss him. And I go, oh my God it`s awful that I just did that in public, but I know that, you know, it`s definitely I won`t do it at school and --
PINSKY: You don`t do tongue in public?
MCDONALD: No. And I definitely think it was a little more disturbing when I watched the video of the dad kissing the daughter for some reason, maybe, because I`m the mother and I will continue to kiss my sons, and I do tell them no woman will love you like your mother loves you which is totally wrong to do.
PINSKY: I`m thinking of referrals right now for them, just so you know.
MCDONALD: So, I think that they didn`t really think it through. Like I don`t think they`re bad people.
PINSKY: OK. Well, I`m not saying they`re bad people. Mark, what do you think? Mark Eiglarsh, you`re out there. You`ve got have kids, too. Heather kisses hers and threatens them with withdrawing her love and affection. And, as I said, I`ve got a referral for a therapist for them as soon as they need it, which sound like will be airlifted there later this week, but what do you think, Mark?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, one legal phrase came to mind when I saw the video over and over again and that was yuck. And it`s not that -- it`s not that they were kissing, it`s the way that they were kissing, a peck, I think I can get. But a Casablanca, Bogart, Ingrid Bergman make-out session was a bit much for me.
And my concern for this principal is if we let him go without kind of pointing out how inappropriate this is, he`ll try to outdo himself next year. So, we`ve got, what, a tongue kiss and a lap dance with grandma.
PERRY: Oh, God!
PINSKY: I know that`s where Heather was going with it. Speaking of the principal at Rosemount High School, he apologized for what he says was a harmless prank. So, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN WOLLERSHEIM, PRINCIPAL, ROSEMOUNT HIGH SCHOOL: I know there are people who are upset about what they`ve seen, and as principal, I`m responsible for what happens here, and if -- for all the people who were offended, they`re genuinely offended, and I owe them an apology.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He looks kind of panic stricken there. He issued a written apology as well, but says, none of the student athletes or the parents have complained. So, Steve, should we let that principal off the hook just say this is a good natured prank, went a little too far, and maybe, everyone learned a lesson?
PERRY: Yes, he apologized for people he offended. The parents and the kids are cool with it, by-gones, you know? Did he go to far for my taste? Yes. But in that school, they seem to be over it. Turn the page, move on. Let them go back to running what I hope is a great school.
PINSKY: Now, I have a photograph I want to show heather, we`ve been doing some hard hitting research here. And this turned up, I just had to share it with Heather particularly because I know she is -- there it is. That`s Christmas of Heather`s future, I guess, you`d say.
MCDONALD: Who is that?
PINSKY: Rumor fix has this lovely photo of Lindsay Lohan sharing a little peck, a birthday kiss with her mom. The poll question on there was, loving mother and daughter or creepy? So, I mean, Heather, a few years down the line, this could be you and your sons out there.
MCDONALD: First of all, I`m never going clubbing with my sons, OK? I would just like to just have like their cheek to kiss for the rest of my life. That`s all I`m saying. But, I do think with this whole thing that, you know, I thought I guess that is embarrassing for the child, you know, the kid, but then, there`s the other part of me that`s like, oh, shut up to be embarrassed about from me. You know, like, if I want to sing in the car, if you want to kiss you at the mall, get over yourself.
PINSKY: We were having a little bit of fun with this, but coming up, we`ve got more on this high school incest prank that has people talking. We`re letting you weigh in. we got your comments. More with my panel after this.
PINSKY: Welcome back. Tonight, a video hits the web showing a high school kissing prank gone wrong. The best way to describe this video is, if you watch it, you`ll say, "yuck," as Mark Eiglarsh pointed out, a very clever legal term he used. Here is the video. It shows girls kissing their dads, boys making out with their moms.
One guy -- apparently, there`s one guy rolling around the floor with his own daughter. It all went down at a Minnesota high school pep rally, and the principal says it was just a joke, but everyone is talking about it. And, actually we want to get to some Facebook comments for our panel here.
This is Kari on Facebook who writes, "Wow! All I can say is gross. Some of them should set up an interview with Dr. Drew, because some of those kids are going to be needing some help. That had to mess with their heads." I am not so sure that`s true, heather. You think kids just need to calm down.
MCDONALD: Yes. I was just saying, I think that you actually have more respect for your kids than I do for mine, because I would really be like, when they say you`re embarrassing me, mom, I`m like no, you`re lucky that you even have a mother, all right? And you`re lucky that we have clean water. Be grateful for the small things in life. I really have no tolerance for kids being embarrassed by their parents.
PINSKY: I hear you laughing, Mark. Do you agree with Heather?
EIGLARSH: This whole thing is crazy. When one kid described his mother`s luscious lips, you know, there`s just something wrong with that. Again, I`m not condemning the principal. I`m just saying use some better judgment next time. That`s all.
PINSKY: And Steve, is it -- are we just, in the media, getting a little freaked out about boundary problems and people in authority and kids and abuse since the Sandusky case broke?
PERRY: We`ve definitely gone too far in terms of the boundary issues. But, you know, in defense of the principal, right, he wasn`t the one told the mothers to go in like that. He just set them up, and they went too far. I think it`s an opportunity for us again to look at the fact that, in the media, sometimes, we can go too far more on particular issue.
PINSKY: I guess, Steve, my thing is I`m glad we`re having fun with it. You know, I`ve been reporting horrible, horrible, horrible things for the last three weeks. It`s kind of a relief to have a little fun with this. Let`s do one more Facebook question, then I got to go.
Pam writes, "What is wrong with the parents that participated? I would never do that to my son and embarrass him like that. It`s totally humiliating for the kids." And we`ve established that Heather has a habit of embarrassing and humiliating her kids, so for her it would be nothing.
MCDONALD: It would be nothing.
PINSKY: To me, it would be -- I couldn`t do it to my kids.
MCDONALD: Mothers probably haven`t been able to kiss their teenage sons for like three years. So, they`re making out for lost time.
PINSKY: Heather, you`re freaking me out a little bit.
EIGLARSH: Me and her part company at that comment. I`m out.
PINSKY: I know. And Mark, I know Heather. I`m going to keep an eye on her.
PINSKY: Mark, the kids will, but Mark, for her to protect, I`ll be calling you in a few months or may probably a few years. So, stand by. Thank you to my panel. Thank you, Steve, Mark, Heather. I got to go.
And a few words before we go on the Jodi Arias case. This isn`t just a murder case. Now, remind you that, you know, we think we know what it`s about. Police say girl next door kills former boyfriend in crime of passion. You know, we like this fantasy that normal people suddenly become violent killers. That really doesn`t happen.
We just don`t know what is up yet. The person who committed this kind of a crime probably had some very serious trauma in her life. No one is stabbed 20 times, shot in the face, sliced ear-to-ear, hey, just because I`m jealous. There`s going to be a lot more revealed about this woman as time goes on. I suspect she`s in something we call a violent blackout where they just don`t know what they`re doing.
Thank you for watching. We`ll hear more about it. See you next time. Take care.