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More Photos Discovered, Linked to Teacher
Aired February 8, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Can this Los Angeles School situation get any worse? More pictures have been uncovered, and now a teacher`s aide is accused - get this - of writing a love letter to a third grader.
Plus, a parent kills his own children in the most shocking way imaginable. The act of a desperate man, should someone have seen it coming? There is more to be revealed.
Let`s get started.
Thank you for joining us tonight.
We`re getting into some incredible, astonishing, disgusting stories here tonight. There are more photos, hundreds of them that have been found, authorities say they are linked to a teacher who is charged with lewd acts upon Los Angeles area school children. How can so many people know so much yet seem to know nothing? That`s the questions parents and others are asking as they grapple with this.
And now a love letter has surfaced. Isn`t that lovely? That`s so quaint. A love letter to a third grader by an adult. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): First, it was one educator, then two, now three accused of vile behavior, all at L.A.`s Miramonte Elementary.
Tonight, new reports that a teacher`s aide sent love letters to an 11- year-old boy and nothing was done. This as officials replaced the entire staff because of two other teacher`s charges.
Mark Burnt allegedly blindfolded and photographed students in sickening bondage poses. Martin Bernard Springer is accused of fondling students at this school.
Think it`s an isolated incident? Think again. Clear across the country, a teacher`s aide in New York is accused of making child pornography.
What`s going on? School is supposed to be a safe haven for our kids. Here, it looks more like a safe haven for predators. Who is watching? What about your kids, are they safe?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So was there some sort of endemic failure of the administration? Was there a culture of silence involved? Was the administration above this school that was guilty in some way?
Here to discuss the impact, Jacqueline Hurtado, CNN Espanol Reporter. She has been speaking with parents and their children since the story broke. And Keith Davidson, who represents three of the students who teacher Mark Burnt allegedly photographed in just awful, awful situations.
Jacqueline, I`m going to go out to you first. What`s the general feeling in the community? How`s this working out?
JACQUELINE HURTADO, CORREPONDENT, CNN ESPANOL: Dr. Drew, the people here in this community are outraged. They still don`t know why the school never notified the parents that this was going on, especially when they were investigating these accusations for a year, and they want to know why the school never said anything.
Last week, I had a chance to talk to a lot of these parents. They were furious, they wanted answers, especially because these kids, they`re trying to learn English, and a lot of these parents were saying that they put all their trust in these teachers here and they just don`t know why something like that would have happened in this school and nobody notified them.
PINSKY: Jacqueline, do people feel that in any way because it`s a minority, underserved, socioeconomically distressed environment, that they have been the ones singled out for such torture?
HURTADO: Yes. A lot of the parents have expressed that feeling. They said if this was happening on the west side of town, this would have not happened or they would have tried to find a solution right away. And they said just because this is a minority community, a lot of the people who live here are immigrants and a lot of the people here don`t speak English. They feel that they`re victims and that`s why this happened for so long.
I know that a lot of the parents also have said just because they can`t communicate with the teachers, that`s no excuse for the authorities not to tell them what was going on in this school, especially when they put all their trust here at the school.
And something that`s also interesting to mention is that in the Hispanic culture, they see the teacher as parents, so they put all the trust in these teachers, so if a teacher were to grab or hug a child, they wouldn`t really put too much attention, because that`s kind of part of the culture, but now they`re realizing teachers shouldn`t be doing that to their kids after the alleged incidents that occurred here at the Miramonte School.
PINSKY: And, Jacqueline, aren`t people angry? I mean, aren`t you angry?
HURTADO: I`m surprised that this happened for so long and no one really said anything. I know that I talked to a few parents, and they said they would send out letters saying that a teacher was suspended or a teacher was on administrative leave, but they really didn`t know what was happening until everything came out.
And they`re more upset because they found out about what was going on here in the school through the news. The district or the school never notified them until the news organizations reported on this case, so they`re just outraged and they`re more outraged -
HURTADO: -- especially because their children are being affected.
Yesterday, we had a chance to see some of these children, they were crying, they just don`t understand what`s going on. They`ve gone through a drastic change. Their teachers are not here. They spent almost a year with them and suddenly their teacher`s gone, so they`re asking what`s going on here in the school and a lot of the parents say they don`t know what to tell their children, especially because it involves abuse.
PINSKY: Thanks, Jacqueline. I really appreciate that report and those insights.
So Keith, you`re representing three of these kids, she brings up some really interesting insights here. Now evidently it`s the news media that reported this to these poor parents - these poor parents what had gone on on their kid`s school.
You say in 2008, it was the public that actually blew the lid off of that case you were investigating as well.
KEITH DAVIDSON, ATTORNEY, REPRESENTS THREE MIRAMONTE STUDENTS: Well, incidentally, it`s the public that`s blown the lid off both cases. In the 2008 case where there was a teacher by the name of Ricardo Guevara, who was subsequently prosecuted and is currently serving 15 years to life -
PINSKY: That was a case where a parent actually witnessed him abusing the kid?
DAVIDSON: That`s correct.
PINSKY: Now, any of those cultural issues intervene there, too, or they found out, oh, maybe they were just hugging, being, you know - we just heard Jacqueline that say hugging and close physical contact, not unusual in that culture.
DAVIDSON: Well, I can`t really speak to that talk. But what I can say is that in 2008, this individual, Ricardo Guevera, who`s a teacher, he - as his pedophilia waned (ph) onto the students, he went out and searched for and targeted young kindergarten female students who were the product of a single parent home, a mother - a fatherless home.
PINSKY: He cultivated the perfect victim for his - for his acts. He knew what he was doing.
DAVIDSON: He knew what he was doing.
PINSKY: So he also knew what he was doing by going to Miramonte School, evidently, because it looks like that`s an environment where, you know, pedophiles are welcome. It`s like - the teachers apply, pedophiles especially.
DAVIDSON: They want us to believe not that lightning has struck once, not twice, but three or four times in a four-year period. It`s simply outrageous to believe.
PINSKY: Right. There`s got to be something more going on endemically in the - at least - the administration, if not the L.A. Unified who should have been - they were asleep at the wheel, right?
DAVIDSON: Where there`s smoke, there`s fire. This thing is going to get bigger before it gets smaller.
PINSKY: Well, that`s a big deal.
Let`s - let`s look at this love letter that the mother of an 11-year- old saw. Here it is. She found it from a teacher`s aide. She thankfully told school officials and law enforcement. This was, I guess this was in 2009, again. Were you aware of this one, a love letter in 2009, something that - was it reported?
DAVIDSON: Not that I know. It all came out as a result of this.
PINSKY: Of this. All right. Here`s the love letter. It said in part, quote, "When you get close to me, even if you give me the chills, I like that. Don`t tell anybody about this. Read the letter and throw it away. I don`t want your mom or brother to find it."
Oh, my God. I feel like - I`m going to be - have nausea. If I don`t throw up today, it`s going to be a miracle. You know what I mean? This is - and these poor people put the trust in the school. It almost feels like there was somebody inside the school that knew something, right, doesn`t it feel like a culture of silence?
DAVIDSON: Doctor, this goes back a -
PINSKY: How can this go on so long, since 2008, 2009, and now a much - a huge problem with the guy - he`s like almost in the business of taking pictures of kids.
DAVIDSON: And that`s yet to be seen whether - where these pictures went after he took them. We know that there are hundreds of pictures taken. We know that there are hundreds of pictures that were categorized and cataloged. We don`t know what was done with those pictures after the catalog is -
PINSKY: Where they all went. What do the parents of the kids you represent want?
DAVIDSON: Well, one, they want to ensure that this never happens again to the extent they can do that, we`re going to try.
Two, they want to make sure that their children are taken care of. We`ve seen drastic differences in the behavior of their children, everything from catastrophic weight gain, diminishing grades in school, depression, anxiety, nightmares.
PINSKY: All the signs of trauma, trauma. This is very sad. They need help. I hope - are they getting help? Do many of the kids - did any of the kids ask for it out there?
DAVIDSON: Most recently.
PINSKY: They have.
DAVIDSON: Only very, very recently, within the last week or so since a civilian took a very brave, 18, 19-year-old kid who was processing photographs at CVS to blow the lid off this entire investigation that the Los Angeles Unified School District should have seen coming.
PINSKY: I need to talk to that kid and thank him or her. Was it a male or female? Do we know?
DAVIDSON: We don`t know.
PINSKY: We`ve got to find that person. All right, thank you to CNN Espanol, Jacqueline Hurtado, with her excellent report. And of course, Keith, thank you for being here.
So how do we deal with sexual abuse? What are the feelings (ph) people go into? When we return, we`re going to actually meet a sexual abuse survivor who`s going to answer some of these questions. Stay with us.
PINSKY: All of us, of course, feel horrible and sick when we hear about disgusting adults destroying lives of helpless children.
Joining my discussion, Dr. Paul Reitman, Clinical Psychologist who deals with 15 to 30 pedophiles a year for the State of Minnesota. And David Clohesszy, who is a sexual abuse survivor and Director of SNAPS, Survivor Network of those Abused by Priests.
Now, David, your abuse like the kids at L.A. Elementary School here began when you were 11. Can you tell us how - how these people go through the grooming process and what we might teach our kids to look out for this?
DAVID CLOHESSY, VICTIM OF CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE: Well, usually predators are very, very cunning, manipulative, but at the same time they are very charming and personable. And it`s unusual that they suddenly and violently attack a kid. It`s a very slow, methodical process where they gradually cross lines.
They may sort of persuade a child that we`re friends and lure a child into doing adult activities, which often means that then the child feels guilty or complicit and feels like, well, if I tell what he did to me, I`ll also have to tell about the pornography or the alcohol or the marijuana or whatever I did that I probably shouldn`t have been doing anyway. So it`s a very slow and careful process.
PINSKY: And, David, tell us a little bit more about the emotional experience that these kids are going through. Because no one - if someone has never been through this, it`s hard to imagine how shattering this can be.
CLOHESSY: Yes. Well, I mean, kids react to abuse in all sorts of ways. Almost none of them are healthy, and the response by children can be very, very self-destructive, you know, sometimes it`s eating disorders, it`s depression, it`s insomnia, it`s acting out in school.
And I know it doesn`t help parents much to say watch for bizarre behavior changes in your kid, but that really is true. Kids respond in different ways, and it`s up to parents to be close to their children, listen to their children, and actually pay attention to - to their own gut feeling about some of these adults who want to spend so much time around kids.
PINSKY: And, in fact, the community is taking some action, are they not? They`re actually wearing bracelets now for these kids?
DAVIDSON: Yes, the students have been handed out red, rubber bracelets, similar to the Lance Armstrong Project or other fundraisers that we see, and they say in bright white block letters, "Stop, Tell, Yell."
DAVIDSON: And there was a culture of silence, if you will, at Miramonte School, and a culture of silence that we see in a lot of these social systems.
PINSKY: What I was saying, in my world, you`re as sick as your secrets.
PINSKY: And secrets can make people not well.
Now, before I go to Dr. Reitman, I want you to tell us all what - because you told me during the break what this guy was actually doing, what he was taking pictures of, and Dr. Reitman, I`d like you to comment on what you think this is.
DAVIDSON: Well, the - the teacher in question, he would bind the kids` hands behind their back, he would blindfold them, and in a sort of sick, perverted science experiment, he would tell the kids that they were testing the sense of taste, so he would provide them different things, saltine crackers, cookies, and on those saltine crackers or cookies would be semen. Also - and he would photograph them as they were eating these semen-laced cookies.
The other thing that he was doing, Dr. Drew, is he had these Madagascar cockroaches.
PINSKY: It`s a giant cockroach.
DAVIDSON: Giant, three - four-inch cockroaches that thick, a carnival-like cockroach and he would allow the cockroaches to crawl on the blindfolded kids` face and head. He would photograph them.
PINSKY: Would they be eating this gross stuff at the same time and all this thing happening together?
DAVIDSON: Yes. It was all a play on the testing or the experimentation of senses, the sense of taste and touch.
PINSKY: OK. Dr. Reitman, my senses have been violated, and I think I`ve now overwhelmed my - every sense I have. I`m ready to throw up. How do we understand what that behavior is?
DR. PAUL REITMAN, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s clear that he`s a sexual psychopath. He absolutely has no fundamental concepts of morality, no empathy, lack of remorse.
He`s also a sexual sadist. He indulges, he likes to humiliate, if you will, torture his victims, and more importantly, he is not amenable to treatment.
PINSKY: And Dr. Reitman, is he doing anything with these pictures? Are there - do they tend to rings of these people, you know what I mean? Do they - you know what I`m asking?
REITMAN: Yes, sure. It becomes, if you will, a kind of a paraphilia for him. He can look at them. He can engage in self-sex with them. It`s a trophy for him.
PINSKY: Dr. Reitman, do you deal with guys like this? I don`t know - you know, I`ve worked with people, certainly, that have been abused themselves or have been perpetrators, and I have a certain amount of empathy for what they`re going through. I don`t know if I could work with somebody like this. And you`re saying he`s not treatable, so why would you?
REITMAN: As a forensic psychologist, when I assess men who are being referred to indeterminate commitment, only 20 states do that, I do see very serious pedophiles. Pedophiles, on a continuum, some are not as bad as others. A lot of them are not psychopaths. This individual, in my opinion, is clearly a psychopath.
PINSKY: And some are treatable, right, some?
REITMAN: Some can be - some can be treatable in the sense that we can teach them cognitive and behavioral controls in the same fashion we treat alcoholics or addicts, and teaching them what their triggers are, obviously staying away from parks, staying away from playgrounds, certainly not being a school teacher or a Catholic priest.
PINSKY: Wow. David, you`re a victim. When you hear these stories, how do you react? You have been a victim, certainly not a victim.
CLOHESSY: It`s just - well, thank you, it`s just nauseating, and I think the only silver lining here is that, you know, most adults - most kids cannot tell at an early age, so most kids don`t get the kind of validation that these youngsters are getting, and I`m not a psychologist, but we in SNAP have learned that people heal better from abuse when secular authorities take action against their perpetrators.
And so I think these kids, let`s hope they get a lot of therapy. Let`s hope and pray for their families, but I think that recovery is a little bit more - happens a little more quickly when the kids do see that wrongdoers are punished.
PINSKY: Well, that`s, I think, where we need to go. I mean, you need to - you need to wield a big ax.
DAVIDSON: Right. And I think that`s a very good point.
PINSKY: I got 20 seconds.
DAVIDSON: The thing that we`re seeing here in this case is that the secondary abuse suffered by the kids in 2008, it brings it all back to the - to the surface, and what they thought they were going to correct the system, they, in fact, are now having to relive every - all the pain that they went through is back.
PINSKY: My friend, wield that ax. Go get them. I`m not usually a fan of that kind of thing, but today I am.
Thank you, of course, David Clohessy and Keith Davidson, and Paul Reitman again.
Ahead now, how could a father - we`re going to just keep going from one good story to another, a father killing his own children.
And then Thursday, I`ve got my interview with Taylor Armstrong about the suicide of her husband and her very, very difficult past. She`s very forthcoming. I think you`ll find this very interesting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR ARMSTRONG, REALITY STAR: I loved him. I did not want him to go to jail. I didn`t.
PINSKY: I get that you love him, but aren`t you mad at him, too?
PINSKY: Like really mad. Like rage mad.
ARMSTRONG: You know, it`s starting to subside, because I think I miss him so badly, and then -
PINSKY: So are you mad that he killed himself?
PINSKY: Mad that he abused you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The sex scandal at a Los Angeles elementary school has angered and frustrated many of you and myself.
Let`s get right to your questions and comments. We have Nancy on the phone. Nancy in New Jersey, what`s up?
NANCY, WOODBURY, NEW JERSEY: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Nancy.
NANCY: Here`s another example of abuse of power.
NANCY: Time and time again we see teachers who abuse their positions of authority. I believe these perpetrators need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
PINSKY: Well Nancy, I think you`re going to have your wish. But let`s be clear here, this is not limited to teachers. It`s people in positions of management authority; it`s doctors; clinicians, such as therapists that will misappropriate this power. Whenever -- whenever boundaries are violated, whenever a person in authority doesn`t look after the best interest of the person they are responsible for and they let their own issues fade in or creep into this - and I select the word "creep" rather intentionally, then it`s a horrible situation.
I agree, this is one of the most egregious I can imagine. It`s - it`s parents abusing kids. That`s the first place that happens.
Going to Facebook, this is Lynn. She writes, "The culture of silence is so destructive. How do we prevent other school administrations from being in denial?"
And I want to know more about this. I want to know more about what`s going on in the L.A. Unified system. Listen, as I understand, they`re - we`re hearing they`re cleaning house at that school.
I don`t know the answer to this. This - to me, it goes all the way back to the Sandusky case and those kinds of failures within the system. So the good news is, we`re all starting to talk about this. We`re all on it a bit.
I`ve actually talked to college administrators who reassured me that this is not something pervasive throughout the country or something. I was worried it was at one point.
Debbie on Facebook says, "I`m so sick and tired of the children of our nation not being in safe places that they`re supposed to be protected."
And yes, Debbie, that`s - that`s the bottom line here, is that big people take care of little people. We don`t exploit little people, we don`t harm little people, we don`t terrorize them or make them feel bad. And, again, this whole other issue, even when we think it`s in their best interest, nonsense. We take care of them, make them feel safe always.
Amanda - and never let our interests fade upon - be exploited upon there.
Amanda writes, "You should believe your children when they tell you that adults are doing stuff they shouldn`t be doing." And Amanda, I completely agree with you. I think people at home would agree with you as well.
I think, generally speaking, I think this country generally has been much better about that in the last several years, certainly. And again, the fact that this becoming - these headlines are out there, we`re aware of these things more and more, I think people are more apt to believe things that sound unbelievable.
Larry, finally, on Facebook writes, "Just what discourages creeps" - there`s that word again. I love it - "from continuing what they do?" And Larry, unfortunately, it is only the most severe consequences brought to bear, systematically brought to bear, that will have any impact on this behavior.
These are powerful motivations that these people have that - almost like trying to stop an addict. Not quite the same thing, but the only thing that stops is when the axe falls, and - or the sword of Damocles is held over their head, where they can see it.
Next up, the Josh Powell case. Now we`re going to get into a father murdering his own children and what`s going on with this, what - what - how does somebody get into this state where they would even contemplate doing something like this?
Want to read more about any story you see on our show? Head over to HLNtv.com. You can also check out the top 10.
And I want you to stay with us, because we`re going to get into this story. But it is just another disgusting situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Josh Powell, parent of two and suspect in his wife`s disappearance, died with his sons in an inferno set by his own hand. This (ph) father chose total destruction over the lives of his kids. Was he just dead set on winning or was it a legacy of sickness passed down from his father?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Welcome back. Now, tonight, we have some really tough stories. We`re going to look at fathers who kill their own children. To start with, Josh Powell ignited a massive explosion that claimed his life and the lives of his two children. Oh! The autopsy reports show that he hacked them with a hatchet before he set the blaze. Watch this.
PINSKY (voice-over): Why would a father who fought for custody of two children kill them in such a dramatic way?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He blew up the house and the kids!
PINSKY: That frantic call from a social worker to 911 mirrors one Powell`s own sister made minutes later, not knowing it was too late.
VOICE OF ALINA POWELL, JOSH POWELL`S SISTER: I think my brother might be in trouble.
PINSKY: And what`s known about Josh Powell, he loved his sons, Charlie and Braden, so did his wife, Susan, who disappeared in 2009. Authorities investigating her disappearance have just acknowledged, for the first time, that they believe she is dead, though, her body has never been found.
Investigators say Powell withdrew $7,000 from the bank the day before the explosion. They searched his storage unit on Tuesday. How long was he planning to torch the house? Does this mean he had something to do with Susan`s disappearance? What do his actions say about his mental state? And then, there`s Josh`s father, Steven, in jail on child pornography possession charges who says he was in love with Susan and sang about her.
PINSKY (on-camera): A dad in jail, and apparently, desperate brother, some family. And here is more of the 911 call from Josh`s sister.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POWELL: I think my brother might be in trouble or something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s going on with your brother?
POWELL: I don`t know. He`s sending weird e-mails. He`s saying goodbye and stuff. He sent several e-mails saying stuff about how to handle his property or something. I don`t know. Different e-mails.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me now to discuss this, Dr. Leslie Seppinni. She`s a clinical psychologist and author of "Who Is Casey Anthony: Understanding The Motherly Motivation To Murder." And with us by phone are Chuck and Judy Cox, they are Susan Powell`s parents and grandparents of the two boys who were killed by their dad, Josh Powell, this past weekend.
Chuck and Judy, I`ve spoken to you guys before, and I don`t know what to say. I`m so sorry that I`m speaking to you now under these circumstances. Are you guys, OK?
JUDY COX, MOTHER OF SUSAN POWELL: We take one day at a time, like always.
PINSKY: And Judy, I think it was your other daughter and I had spoke one time, and you had expressed profound concerns about Josh at that time. Did any of the people just not listen to you? Was that all on deaf ears?
JUDY COX: You know, you get an intuition or a feeling, and you see things the way persons interact with others, and I felt, yes, that he had issues. And, I was concerned for Susan, and also, friends also said that he had some problems.
CHUCK COX, FATHER OF SUSAN POWELL: Yes, we felt they heard us. We know they heard us. But there was, evidently, nothing -- they didn`t change the visitation policy. They didn`t add security to it. They did in the very beginning, but visitation had been going on for, you know, three months here, four months, and I think they were lax.
PINSKY: You know, it`s hard to even know what to say in situations like this, guys. You know, everyone`s heart goes out to you, obviously. It`s sort of beyond belief how awful this thing is. You know, sometimes, being of service can get people, you know, make meaning of things. Are there things we need to tell other parents? Are there lessons to be learned here?
CHUCK COX: Well, for one thing, we felt that he was a different person. We knew he was strange, but we -- a normal person cannot comprehend the thoughts of a person like this who could take his own life and the life of two innocent children at the same time, and his wife.
So, how do you do that? But we were -- our gut told us something was wrong here with this person, and we did all that we could within our power.
PINSKY: Well, I`m going to turn to my guest here in the studio. Thank you guys. Dr. Seppinni, you know a little bit about something like this. You had personal issues around this. Can you talk about that?
DR. LESLIE SEPPINNI, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, sure. Absolutely.
PINSKY: So, tell us your background and so how you can help us understand this phenomenon.
SEPPINNI: In my background, there was a history of domestic violence between my mother and father. My father was the perpetrator. He wound up going to sing-sing for murder. And, he had a history, a long history building up to this. And he also had issues with drugs, poor coping strategies.
PINSKY: So, you`ve been -- and you`ve written a book about Casey Anthony. You have insight into a mind like this. How did we know -- how does somebody know they`re dealing with someone like this?
SEPPINNI: Well, you don`t. That`s the problem. That`s really the most difficult part, and what you can do is what these parents did -- and, again, my condolences go out to them also -- is that they were very vigilant in expressing their concerns and going to the authorities and following up with supervised visitation and following up with the custody battle. And so, that`s as best as they could possibly do under these conditions.
PINSKY: You told me briefly before the show started that, oftentimes, parents do have an instinct that there`s something with this guy, that their son or daughter just doesn`t see.
SEPPINNI: I think there`s a gut feeling about a person, and they know their child versus when they meet the other person, they get a sense that this is not a match made in heaven.
PINSKY: But a lot of parents get that kind of feeling. How do you know this is just a bad match versus a bad dude?
SEPPINNI: Because a little time in getting to know the person, but I think you have to follow your gut instinct. When your gut instinct tells you something really is not sitting well with me and then you see behavior over a period of time, you really have to follow up with your child, and you have to be consistent.
PINSKY: And back to Judy and Chuck, did you guys get to -- before the boys left us, did you have a chance to spend time with them? Was their life OK before this horrible, horrible thing?
CHUCK COX: When they came to us, they were very -- they had been brain washed. They had been indoctrinated that we were bad. They had a big issues, and with the psychologist they saw and the love we showed them, they warmed up just tremendously. They were almost just naturally young children and enjoying life.
PINSKY: You know, somehow, Chuck, I got to tell you something, this - - that`s a piece of information that`s almost -- I`m having a funny angry, horrible angry reaction to this. I`m sorry, but Josh is a disgusting perpetrator, but for him to turn these kids against these grandparents, the two people in their life that could give them some meaning, some love, some real closeness, he had the temerity to turn them against you. I`m so sorry for that. But you did get to have some connection with them, eventually?
CHUCK COX: Yes. Definitely. When we got -- when they were placed with us by social services, and we`ve had them since October, yes, September 27th --
PINSKY: But Chuck, he was indoctrinating them to not like you and not trust you into that you were bad and he was good?
CHUCK COX: That`s exactly it.
PINSKY: I`m so sorry.
CHUCK COX: The youngest one told me I should change my name.
CHUCK COX: That Chuck Cox was evil (ph).
PINSKY: This is -- Leslie, I`m wondering why I`m having such a reaction to this. The guy`s done enough, I`m still angrier now.
SEPPINNI: Right. But this is what abusers do. They isolate and they alienate family members so that they won`t discuss the abuse. They won`t tell them what`s going on at home. There`s a disconnection, a mistrust they create in their children, so their children won`t seek out help.
PINSKY: Brainwashing. It`s brainwashing.
SEPPINNI: Brainwashing, yes.
PINSKY: The control room tell me is Judy and Chuck are going to stay with me for the next segment? I`d love to know. Guys, can you stay with me for a few more minutes?
CHUCK COX: Sure.
JUDY COX: Sure.
PINSKY: Again, I appreciate you joining us tonight.
OK. Next up, we`re going to talk even further about whether there`s a connection between Casey Anthony and a Josh Paul -- Josh Powell, rather. We will talk about that when we come back. So, please, stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH POWELL, KILLED HIMSELF AND HIS TWO SONS: I will protect my sons. I will protect my sons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the search for Susan?
JOSH POWELL: I have done everything I can. I have put more time and energy into this than anyone can possibly imagine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As to the charge of first-degree murder, verdict as to count one, we, the jury, find the defendant not guilty. As to the charge of aggravated manslaughter of a child, verdict is to count three, we, the jury, find the defendant not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Remember that, Casey Anthony being found not guilty in the death of her daughter, Caylee. Six months later, that verdict still remains controversial. Sadly, in the case of Josh Powell, no attempt, no ability to get a verdict.
Anne Bremner is an attorney for the parents of Susan Powell. Leslie Seppinni is a clinical psychologist and author of "Who Is Casey Anthony: Understanding The Motherly Motivation To Murder." We`re going to talk about this in just a moment, but let`s get a look at Josh Powell as he talks to reporters about his missing wife`s father, who we`re going to talk about in a minute."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH POWELL: Chuck Cox has used my sons as nothing but pawns in the media to elicit hatred of our family, to elicit hatred of me, which has had a deeper impact on my sons than it has even had on me. It has had an impact --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Chuck and Judy, we`re still with you, and thank you for joining us. Understanding that he turned your own grandchildren against you somehow put a vivid reality on this for me that I just can`t escape. I mean, I feel like I need to take a shower.
CHUCK COX: It means you`re normal.
PINSKY: Yes, I guess that`s right. And I`m sorry we live in a world where there are guys like that, and I`m sorry your daughter didn`t listen to you guys. But, you know, Judy, you and I talked months ago, it seemed like, about your daughter. And you had a lot of strong feelings, a lot of strong things to say then about him and about what your daughter went through. How are you doing with that now?
JUDY COX: I still feel the same.
CHUCK COX: Only now --
JUDY COX: And now, because of other things coming out, it scares me to think that he`s been like this and had no clue.
PINSKY: What is it you`re specifically talking about, Judy?
JUDY COX: Well, child porn, you know, and his dad. I mean, that was really not expected. I know they were camera people. They loved to take pictures, and they`d take pictures of the boys, but they were dressed and everything else.
So, it looked like family pictures. They were constantly snapping, and sometimes, they`d snap pictures at us, but we could not get our camera out and take pictures, so they were different.
PINSKY: Do you think that Steve ever did anything to the boys?
JUDY COX: I don`t know. I would sure like to find out.
CHUCK COX: I think he did. I think it`s possible he did, because when the boys were over here, they were running around naked and they were saying things like it`s good to be naked and fun to play and this kind of thing. We said no, not in this house. You need to put on some clothes.
You need to, you know, -- and that was about a week or so we had them this incident came up. So, I think he was grooming them or something, I don`t know, it was wrong.
PINSKY: Well, I mean, he, you know -- it`s so hard to get. You know, I have sympathy for sick people that are traumatized, you know what I mean? And there`s no doubt Leslie that Steve Powell traumatized his son, Josh. You know what I`m saying? I mean, there`s no doubt that Steve has a large hand to play in who Josh was.
SEPPINNI: Big time, big time.
PINSKY: But that does not -- I guess if Josh came to you or I, we`d be sympathetic to him if he hadn`t done anything, but once people cross the line, that`s it, that`s it.
SEPPINNI: It`s very difficult to treat.
PINSKY: Agree. I wouldn`t even contemplate it. Even the way he treated his wife, that`s the time -- forget the murder of his wife, just how he was treating her, the sort of, you know, the isolating everybody from the family, that is time for -- for legal system to step in.
SEPPINNI: Absolutely. And you`re talking about a history of abuse, a cycle of abuse that`s been passed on. You`re talking about issues of possible incest. You`re talking about issues of pedophilia --
PINSKY: It`s disgusting. It is disgusting.
SEPPINNI: Ongoing, yes.
PINSKY: It`s ongoing. It`s disgusting. And these poor people, Chuck and Judy, their family got sucked into that disgusting web. I want to show you something that Steve, this is Josh Powell`s father, claimed this.
Check this out. That he and his son`s wife, this is Susan Powell, whose Josh murdered, shared a sexually charged relationship before she went missing in 2009. This is awesome. What a great guy. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE POWELL, JOSH POWELL`S FATHER: She initiated the relationship that we had that it was, you know, very sexually charged. There were definitely some things that were probably inappropriate for a married woman and her father-in-law. I will say that, you know, it probably developed into, you know, maybe an obsession. On my part, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anne Bremner, out to you. I mean, this guy`s in jail now, right? First of all, I want to say -- first of all, Anne, thank you for helping Judy and Chuck. And secondly, I want to remind Judy and Chuck that what Anne told me which is when this all happened, it was the saddest day of her life, and I understand that. What are we going to do with this guy? There`s still one guy we can get here. What are we going to do with him?
ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY FOR SUSAN POWELL`S FAMILY: You know, I hope he goes away, you know, forever and a day, Dr. Drew. I mean, he has been horrific. Chuck and Judy are the two most lovely people I`ve ever had the pleasure of representing and the honor. And to see what he and his son have done to them and their family is so beyond criminal.
And when he was out there saying these things about Susan on the air and Chuck had to go out and correct the record, when he said demeaning, disgusting, horrible, false things about her, and then, when they got to the house, the police, when they arrested him ultimately for the voyeurism, there was a noose hanging from a ceiling.
One of his sons answers the door naked. He`s taking pictures of two and four-year-old girls naked next door. And there`s pictures of Susan that he took as well, and then, he said these horrible things. And he raise --
PINSKY: Anne, you got to get this guy. Anne, please, get this guy. Please.
BREMNER: I know.
PINSKY: Please, do what you can. We`re behind you.
BREMNER: I will. Thank you so much.
PINSKY: Thanks, Anne. And Judy and Chuck, thank you for joining us. I know everyone listening has the deepest, deepest feelings of sorrow on your behalf, and I`m just so sorry. Thank you for joining us. Leslie, thank you for adding some insight into this.
I`ll see you guys later, Judy and chuck. I hope you`ll join us again some time. And, whatever we can do to support you, please, let us know, OK?
CHUCK COX: Thank you very much.
JUDY COX: Yes, thank you.
PINSKY: OK. Now, ahead, we have the haunting message that Josh Powell left just before his death.
But first, we are in the middle of a GOP race, don`t forget this, we`re switching gears now and talk a little politics. GOP race for the presidential nomination. Super Tuesday is in three weeks. Earlier today, we spoke with Rachel Campos Duffy, wife of Congressman Sean Duffy about what it is like to be a political spouse and how they balance career and marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL CAMPOS DUFFY, WIFE OF REP. SEAN DUFFY (R-WI): A strong marriage is probably the most important thing that I think a politician`s career needs. I think that there`s a real danger, because you are separated for -- most people are separated for four or five days a week, and so, it`s very important that the couple stays connected.
And I think the dangers and the reasons why we, sometimes, hear about affairs and bad things happening like that is because the couples are starting to feel separate lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH POWELL: This is josh, and I`m calling to say goodbye. I am not able to live without my sons, and I`m not able to go on anymore. I`m sorry to everyone I`ve hurt. Goodbye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m not sure he`s capable of sorry. That was Josh Powell`s final good-bye to his brother, Michael, in a voicemail obtained by ABC News. Twenty minutes after that, this monster ignited his home, which resulted -- actually, before he killed his son before he ignited the thing apparently. His sons, Charlie seven, Braden five, their memorial services this Saturday in Tacoma, Washington.
Leslie, one thing I did not get you in the last segment was the Casey Anthony connection, the Casey Anthony versus this monster connection. Do you think this guy is a psychopath? We`ve all kind of learned what a psychopath is now having seen Casey Anthony and Van Der Sloot, we`ve seen him. These are kind of psychopathic people. Is this guy another one?
SEPPINNI: Absolutely another psychopath. And we`re talking about somebody who has no remorse, no sense of guilt. He, obviously, felt cornered and he was too narcissistic in order to figure his way out, and so, committing the ultimate act of taking his children with him was the only way he could think about.
PINSKY: And I imagine somebody like this, because they can`t empathize with another person, if the kids aren`t going to be with him, they are extensions of him, therefore, he`s going to die, they must die, because they are connection to them.
SEPPINNI: Absolutely. They`re an object for him.
PINSKY: This is an object. Yes. They`re part of him. They`re like his hands.
SEPPINNI: Yes, exactly. And so, he`s using them as an object. And remember, the kids are also an extension of his deceased wife. And so, that`s another layer that he thought he was going to get away from. He never anticipated this custody battle, I guarantee you, he did not plan for this.
PINSKY: Because in his mind, he had isolated this family. It was all him again. It`d be like somebody trying to take away his hands from him or something.
SEPPINNI: And he thought he got away with the perfect murder.
PINSKY: Well, he -- oh, God. Well, Casey Anthony -- now Casey -- Casey, to me, seemed more chronically like this. This guy had a father that was a pedophile --
PINSKY: Horribly abusive. God knows what kind of trauma this guy went through. Casey didn`t have trauma, at least, classic kinds of trauma as far as we could tell. Casey, I think you would agree with me, more sort of born with psychopathy than crated --
SEPPINNI: Yes. I would absolutely agree. There`s obviously some genetic or DNA type of situation with her. However --
PINSKY: With Casey.
SEPPINNI: Yes, with Casey, however, the situation with her parents allowed it to fester. And just because you`re born with a predisposition doesn`t mean you`re necessarily going to turn out that way.
PINSKY: I totally agree with you. George was in denial, and mom was in mesh and unwilling to look at these things, couldn`t imagine her perfect daughter had a problem.
SEPPINNI: And even with George, the issue also has to do with him being passive to the mom. And the mom dominated the household. And George could not tolerate the abandonment issues from his wife and his own family history.
PINSKY: Interesting. And I bet this guy, this Josh Powell, was probably isolated by the father. Again, we don`t see the mother in the picture anywhere. I don`t know what happen with --
SEPPINNI: I don`t see a mother in the picture.
PINSKY: Yes. I don`t know if she`s gone or what.
SEPPINNI: I`m sure there`s issues of emotional abuse. I`m sure there`s issues of rejection, the fact that he also knew that his father was flirting with his wife.
PINSKY: His wife! Oh, my God. Anyway, so, there`s more here, but it ended up in the same place.
PINSKY: The guy was a bad guy. He was a murderer. He didn`t care about the people. People were just objects to him.
SEPPINNI: But here are two commonalities with this.
PINSKY: Then I got to go.
SEPPINNI: Two commonalities with this is the children began to talk. Caylee was at an age where she could begin to talk about where her mother was during the day, where was she during the say. Same thing with Josh`s kids where his kids were able to say mommy was in the trunk.
PINSKY: Interesting. Thank you, Dr. Seppinni. I appreciate it.
Nancy Grace is next. She has more with Chuck and Judy Cox, the parents of Susan Powell, who we`ve just been hearing from. Of course, they`re also the grandparents of the little boys killed. Be back tomorrow. See you then. Stay with us.