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50 Shades Of Grey
Aired March 7, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Here we go.
The book, a sensation, the controversy sensational, it`s the erotic novel that apparently is driving women crazy and making men happy. I`m asking, are you reading it and are you ready to talk about it? Our wife is here with her take. I want to hear what you think about "fifty shades of grey" right now. Let`s get started.
And we are live tonight discussing a scandalous erotic. There is a sadistic book that apparently is turning women on to book clubs across America. This is said book. It is called "fifty shades of grey." Our first, a real warning here, this is going to be an adult conversation. This is an adult book, more than adult. In every page is hot and heavy. There are violent sex scenes against women. A man dominates this woman and she enjoys it.
Now, I was on the "Today" show and I said - Now, Savannah Guthrie got me sat down next to me and says this book troubles me. It`s violence against women. It rolls back feminism. I said, OK. I`ll take that point of view. I have not read the book yet. I have read it now. I said the book disturbed me. People tore me apart on social media. I think this unwinds a lot of feminist history. I brought a group of panel -- women together to discuss this. I in fact, asked my own wife, Susan, here this evening. She read the book and as I said, so did I.
I also have lifestyle blogger, Nikki Blogger; I beg your pardon, Nikki Joel. She is here. Therapist, psychologist, Romani Durvasula, also, publisher and host of the "Judith Regan" show on Sirius XM radio, Judith Regan.
And later, we have got our guy panel. They are going to be watching in the wings. I`ve got Mark Eiglarsh and Tucker Max. They are going to be listening to the ladies. They are going to weigh in later.
I`m particularly interested in Tucker because he`s been one of these grey guys at one time of your life, Tucker, one time but not right now.
But - and by the way, Right now I`m in one piece but I`m about to head into the lion bed into the gladiator bed. I hope I survive this. One of the things I`m realizing as we prepared for this is that women`s fantasies evoke male fantasies of destruction. So, here we go.
I`ll start with my wife, Susan. Why can`t women put this book down?
SUSAN PINSKY, Well, sir, I had the opportunity to read this lovely piece of literature yesterday as homework.
DREW PINSKY, DR, DREW PINSKY`S WIFE: Yes.
SUSAN PINSKY: And I was able to get through the first book and I think that it`s a story about a young girl who swept off her feet by a billionaire who has fantasies about being in love --
DREW PINSKY: She does?
SUSAN PINSKY: She does.
DREW PINSKY: So, it`s a swept away fantasy, ladies, is that it?
It`s definitely at the backbone is a love story.
DREW PINSKY: A love story. Romani, is rape fantasy is love story?
NIKKI JOEL, LIFESTYLE BLOGGER: Absolutely a love story.
ROMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s not a rape fantasy.
DREW PINSKY: It`s a rape fantasy.
DURVASULA: Drew, I`m not going to let you go there.
DREW PINSKY: Go ahead.
DURVASULA: It is not a rape fantasy. These are two people who are agreeing to have sex with each other, tie up and they are going to do a little whipping and tickling. That`s consensual, you can`t call that rape.
DREW PINSKY: That`s a subject matter for a different view. But I tell you what, if and when I do tie her up, I don`t give her a contract, as this character does, that says you basically are my slave.
Judith, Judith Regan out there in satellite. Didn`t you have a problem with this book? I mean it`s a horrible piece of writing - I mean. Go ahead.
JUDITH REGAN, RADIO SHOW HOST, SIRIUS XM: Well, it is a terrible piece of writing. My biggest issue with the book is that, it`s really badly written. There`s been a lot of wonderful erotica that`s been written historically. There was a piece of erotic written by a Pope in the 14th century, the mark he just saw at Casanova, the war, as even Mark Twain wrote erotica. Lots and lots of people have written erotica. I don`t really think this is erotica. I think it`s kind of porn trash. And I didn`t find terribly as this thing.
JOEL: It`s actually romance erotica.
REGAN: And what it reminded me of -- I didn`t find it romantic. What is reminded me of is the interview I did last week with Taylor Armstrong who recounted to me the "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," how her husband abused and controlled her, insulted her the way they dressed, the way she spoke, wanted to control just about everything she was doing. And that`s pretty much what this relationship in this book is about.
DREW PINSKY: Not only that, but this is what troubles me, not only is there that sort of mind control issue that this guy is really good at. He grooms her and he takes over her sense of her own control. She makes her - she believes she`s consensual but she has to sign a contract. I got to read you part of the contract. Here it is. It`s ridiculous. Here`s what he says in this contract. There are pages and pages of this in the silly book.
"The dominant accepts the submissive as his on to control dominate and discipline. The dominant may discipline the submissive as necessary. The Dominant way flog, spank, whip, or corporally punish the submissive as he sees fit, for purposes of discipline for his own personal enjoyment or for any other reason. The submissive accepts the dominant as her master." Blah, blah, blah.
Here is my problem. My biggest problem is, it`s going into this media some material and it`s actually pathologyizing it, Romani. In this book, this is a book about a billionaire man who sweeps a young virgin of her feet and makes her sign a contract to be his submissive and we find out in the course of the book, that he was sexually abused at the age of 15. And this is all, him acting out his pathology as opposed to being two consensual adults which is fine. We just say emplace, great.
DURVASULA: It is two consensual adults.
DREW PINSKY: What did I just say?
DURVASULA: You know what; I like the contract, Drew. I like the contract.
DREW PINSKY: You do?
DURVASULA: You know what, they are making -- they are putting into hardcopy what`s implicit any time you walk into a bedroom with some in fact -- I would love to give them an informed consent on my first date with them. This is what I want to do.
DREW PINSKY: Hold on, my wife said absolutely, kind a shiver went down my spine. Do we have to have contracts what we do in our free time?
SUSAN PINSKY: You have contracts after you get married.
DREW PINSKY: We have a marital contract.
SUSAN PINSKY: Yes, absolutely.
DREW PINSKY: But in that we agree --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have --
SUSAN PINSKY: Well, you know.
DREW PINSKY: That may be too much information.
SUSAN PINSKY: This isn`t exciting to you, Drew? I mean, I don`t understand.
DREW PINSKY: It is excite -- you don`t understand. I don`t understand. It is exciting -- here`s -- you said something to me when I ask you, at breakfast this morning, I said what did you think of the book? This guy was a great lover in this book. And I said what? Why? Why is this guy a great lover in the book?
SUSAN PINSKY: Well, he`s teaching her. She`s a virgin and he`s very --
DREW PINSKY: Enthusiastically, agreeing with you.
SUSAN PINSKY: And he`s very responsive to her needs. It`s not just him tying her up.
DREW PINSKY: I don`t see him doing anything except, telling her what he`s going to do before he does it. That`s the only thing unusual I see the guy doing.
JOEL: Right away the second they meet, there`s chemistry with them. She`s as intrigued by him as he is by her. So, when she`s reading contract and she`s going line by line, she`s actually titillated or turned on by and curious about it.
And so, when you get to the part, she actually removes some of the things that don`t make sense here. But the safe words which is where you basically say green for keep going, yellow for getting uncomfortable and red for stop. And if you use the red safe work, everything stops. So, that`s powerful to have that very basic terminology.
SUSAN PINSKY: She has more power than she knows. He even tells her, you have the power. If she would say no to him, he would stop and he`d want her move.
DREW PINSKY: Judith, I say that`s a Stockholm syndrome. I say that`s how people who in positions of power, gain my control over people who think they have power but they end up adopting the attitudes and thinking of the person that`s dominant.
REGAN: No. I actually --
SUSAN PINSKY: This is about sex and love and intrigue.
DREW PINSKY: I know. But Judith, tell me?
REGAN: I don`t think it`s about love at all. I don`t think - there is no love in this book at all. This is about controlling a woman who`s innocent and taking her innocence away from her. And it`s not a very good job. I mean, my issue with that book is that it`s really badly written. None of it was intriguing to me at all. I didn`t find it in the least that compelling.
But it is fiction. It is fiction. And by the way, the British, and this is a British writer, have a long history of writing erotica and do and writing about S and M, a long, long history in the late 19th, in the late 18th century, they used to publish magazines --
DREW PINSKY: But Judith - but this is not -- my point is this, in no way am I thinking this is an indictment of media some. This is an indictment of somebody whose claims he`s writing fiction but is really writing very accurately about a severely pathological couple, severe.
Let me read you an excerpt, I extract from this book. "Bend over the bench, he murmured softly. OK, I can do this. I bend over this leather -- a lot of leather in this thing --
DURVASULA: That`s fun, kind of hot.
DREW PINSKY: Lifts my bathrobe, but jumps and pressed in my behind. I close my eyes, bracing for the blow. It comes harsh snap across my back side." Really, I have to read this crap?
JOEL: You do, especially when you`ve been married for a long time. You know, especially when you are in a monogamous relationship. You know, put a wig on, put some whips and handcuffs and like stir it up a little bit. It`s the two of you. You know what each other`s limits are. You know you are not going to stray outside of the marriage. It works.
SUSAN PINSKY: But you know I just need to do one thing really quickly. I need to apologize to my father and mother-in-law right now.
DREW PINSKY: For having this conversation.
SUSAN PINSKY: I just want to let them know that, you know, we`re thinking of you.
JOEL: I think it`s really healthy to have an active sex life in marriage.
DREW PINSKY: I agree. And if this book helps people I think it`s fantastic. I bless them. It`s great. It`s just that it concerns me that what it is it takes and what might be getting into people`s thinking about women, female empowerment. What`s a healthy relationship -- I got to take a break.
Coming up, coming up. We`re going to take your calls. I`ll read more from this novel and later the guys of course are waiting in the wings. We will have them weigh in with us.
Stay safe. I`ll be right back.
DREW PINSKY: All right. We are coming to you live tonight and we are trying to have a conversation about something that women out there are enjoying in their book clubs. This is the book. An awkward college senior falls for a handsome bad boy named Christian Grey and surprises herself, when she enjoys acting as his slave. And I mean, a slave, complete with an agreement to be his slave, chained to the bed post.
This -- my panel loves this. They think it`s great. It`s a very sexualize violent plot line. I`m back with my guests, including my wife, Susan. And we are trying -- I`m trying to have a --
SUSAN PINSKY: I didn`t say I loved it. I said I didn`t disagree with it.
DREW PINSKY: OK. Nikki loved it?
JOEL: Are you kidding me? I`m re-reading it. I mean, it is probably -- forget whether it`s well written or not. The images it creates and your heart begins to beat when you`re reading it. I`m reading in bed, my husband is trying to talk to me, I`m like, please, I`m with Christian.
DREW PINSKY: I read this book, too. Why?
JOEL: Did you read all three?
DREW PINSKY: No. I want my time back for the time I spent reading this one.
SUSAN PINSKY: I hope you learned something because there might be a pop quiz later, honey.
JOEL: Dr. Drew, it`s really important. Yes, the first 30 pages when I first read about the red room of pain, you realize -- it`s a play room. And why are play rooms bad? You`re playing. You are having fun and you both agreeing like, let`s role play and experiment. I don`t want to try the silver balls. That was a little too much for me. But a good flog here - there little bit. Sorry Honey. Sorry.
DREW PINSKY: Now, let`s remind ourselves. Romani, you are calm with it?
DURVASULA: I do. You keep talking about a slave and there`s no empowerment. This sexuality is about choice. You choose who you sleep with, what you do with them when you are behind closed doors. This is - you won`t feel female empowerment. Let them decide how they are going to masturbate whether they are going to fantasize.
DREW PINSKY: Now, I understand that these are two adults. But when sexual perpetrators groom somebody that is precisely how they do it. This is Sandusky. This is all the people I report of from the schools in Los Angeles. This is how they get the kids or whomever into thinking they are special, there`s something about them and something unique.
Judith, help me with this. Am I not right about that? I mean, --
REGAN: No, I agree with you. You are right about that. It is. And also, this is consistent with the kind of porn we see on the internet where women are degraded. They urinated on their gang banged.
You know, it`s what we are seeing all over the place now. And the fact that women find this exciting and interesting is kind of disheartening. What is heartening, though, is that women also find it equally interesting because they are reading books like the girl with the dragon tattoo. There is that. And you know we have to not forget that this is fantasy. This is fiction. This isn`t reality. But it --
JOEL: It`s actually romance.
REGAN: Something that`s a piece of fiction. But, you know, when it moves into realty, when you`re controlling a woman like this, when you are telling her what to wear, what to eat, what to say, how to please you, and the entire landscape here is all about pleasing you because you are the God, you know, this is obviously not the kind of relationship that I would want to have nor just a kind of relation I want with my daughter to have or read about. And, you know. I`m 58 years old.
DREW PINSKY: Or read about even, thank you.
JOEL: This a modern day "pretty woman"?
DREW PINSKY: Let me just --
JOEL: This is no different.
DREW PINSKY: Let me just - let me just, well. OK. I can`t even start with that. But, let me just say that I have as a male -- here`s territory I will grant you. I have no business commenting on women`s fantasies if that`s what they enjoy.
SUSAN PINSKY: Absolutely not.
DREW PINSKY: Right. You told me that this morning at breakfast that she can read about that. You have no business talking about that. And I will back away from that as a fantasy. I have no problem --
Isn`t it hot to think of your wife fantasizing about things? Like, good sex, there`s nothing like an orgasm. Who doesn`t want an amazing orgasm or multiple orgasms?
DREW PINSKY: I don`t know how to answer that?
REGAN: You know can I just bring up a point here, Drew?
DREW PINSKY: Please. Please.
REGAN: I want to bring up a point. When my son was in college, he was in a joke fraternity and he told me he was moving out of the fraternity because all they did is watch porn and he had this relationship with this woman. He loved her very much. And he felt if he watched porn, it would change his ideas and change the fantasies that he had and he wanted them to be about her. He wanted to remain innocent.
And the root of the word innocent is caused no harm. He wanted to be able to have a loving relationship with this woman and he felt that by watching this, it would disturb it. This is the kind of book that could disturb an impressionable mind, someone who is trying to bond with someone, someone who is trying to have a loving relationship with somebody. When you`re an older woman --
DREW PINSKY: I got to take a call. Ladies, I know you think you do. The lights especially hot today or something? Is that what Susan mean the words. What`s this?
But Kelly has a comment. She is calling from Illinois. Hi, Kelly, what`s going on? You had a comment for now.
KELLY, CALLER, ILLINOIS: This conversation is making me laugh because I kind of have a different angle to the story.
DREW PINSKY: Please, go ahead.
KELLY: Sure, my husband and I had sex life after reading the entire series of the three books has definitely improved. I love the Christian Grey character in a sense that he was the typical bi-ronic character that`s brooding and self-loathing. And here, you have this innocent girl. She is a sexual virgin. He is an emotional virgin. And they come together throughout the three books and they find a comfortable place to practice and actually there`s more ordinary sex those it`s extraordinary which I think is what I found --
DREW PINSKY: Kelly, I must tell you --
JOEL: Kelly, you are right on. And, what about the epilog? How satisfying was that epilog?
DREW PINSKY: Hold out.
KELLY: Can I just say? I can`t stop reading it. That`s another thing.
DREW PINSKY: I`m going to get up and I`m going to go on. You guys, you guys have fun. Talk with your friends here. There`s nothing left for me to say. I read 50 pages of the book and I got nothing. I read 100 pages, I got nothing.
JOEL: Book two to book three is a love story. A sexually innocent girl and it`s like there`s someone for everybody.
DREW PINSKY: No, this is why I have to listen on love liner night to these girls calling in with these associate sociopathic narcissistic, brooding, abusive guys that they are going to convert. I can especially see something in him.
DURVASULA: In this case what we`re talking about, you have no place entering my fantasy world --
DREW PINSKY: You`re right.
DURVASULA: Unless by choice.
DURVASULA: The fact is --
DREW PINSKY: You are absolutely right.
DREW PINSKY: Ladies --
DURVASULA: No one else can dictate.
JOEL: If I like to do crazy things with my husband --
DREW PINSKY: Don`t want to hear about it.
DREW PINSKY: Check mate. Check mate. Check mate.
I`ve got to keep going here. Now, I need backup here. No, it can`t wait because I`m going to bring guys in here to weigh in some -- they have differing experiences around the issue. Are they are giving thoughts about it. There they are, Tucker Max and Mark Eiglarsh.
I`m going to bring these guys into the conversation -- this is getting -- we`ll be right back.
DREW PINSKY: All right. We are live tonight. And if you have been following along here, we have been talking about a book that is catching on as I said. I was on the "Today" show and made comments about it and I was ripped apart on the internet because of it. It is called "fifty shades of grey." It`s a novel with an innocent young woman who was pulled into the world of bondage and disciplines -- it wasn`t about that.
I mean, that would have been - to me, that would have been interesting two adults going doing this. But this is about slavery really. We`ve been talking -- my women panel is going to be quiet during this segment, why people are freaking out about this book. But, I want to bring in two guys to have a man-to-man conversation about this. Mark Eiglarsh, there you are, joins me. And also, the author of "I hope they serve beer in hell," Tucker Max.
You guys have been listening to this. Mark, I know you have something to say. I`ll let you weigh in first.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Drew, you know I love you.
DREW PINSKY: Yes.
EIGLARSH: But I thoroughly disagree with the, everything that`s flowing from your lips on this subject matter. This book is a journey of erotic fantasy. It is spicing things up in the bedroom. It is revitalizing numerous sex lives of countless people around the country.
DREW PINSKY: If it only does that --
EIGLARSH: Let me finish. Kanye -- don`t interrupt. The men are turned on. The women are turned on. There`s love in the home. If there`s love in the home, there`s peace in the home. And Drew, if there`s peace in the home, there`s peace in the world. Don`t stand in the way of peace, my friend.
DREW PINSKY: Mark, pretty hard to argue with that.
But Tucker, I see you shaking your head. You`re now -- I`ve read the article about your journey into psychoanalysis and how it changed your perception of, for instance, men engage in these kinds of relationship. Please, help me.
TUCKER MAX, AUTHOR: Well, I`m more on your side than I think anyone on this. I think he`s a toxic sociopath. I mean, aside from the fact that he is an utterly unrealistic character. That no one has his sweet of traits and characteristics in real life, but this dude is seriously disturbing and weird. And like, -- I mean, Dr. Drew, analysis or not, like five years ago I would have thought the same thing about this guy --
DREW PINSKY: I`ve got to stop you. Even Tucker Max in his worst behavior would look at this guy and go, man, that guy is bad, that guy is a problem, right?
MAX: He`s basically Patrick Baitman from American psycho.
DREW PINSKY: Ok.
MAX: But, it`s like they were --
DREW PINSKY: OK.
MAX: Like kind of girl she is.
DREW PINSKY: Mark, what do you think would be either of you, and now Mark, I don`t disagree with you. I want peace in the world.
But Tucker, what do you think women are responding to in this guy? You read the book. What do you think?
MAX: NO. I have a lot of the women -- these women approach me like -- I cannot tell you how many girls think that I`m something like this guy and they approach me and then they get upset that I don`t essentially abuse them or control them or dominate them in this way.
EIGLARSH: Drew --
MAX: I think there are a lot of women that respond to sort of, like in this book specifically that he`s a hyper dominant alpha male but he`s actually --
DREW PINSKY: OK. But - hold on, Tucker. Mark, 20 seconds.
MAX: It goes both ways.
EIGLARSH: OK. Who are we to tell the more intelligent species what erotica is acceptable to them?
MAX: That`s not the argument.
EIGLARSH: For me, that`s an argument.
DREW PINSKY: It`s funny guys. OK, gentlemen. I got to go to break. I got to go.
And the fact is, we - you are going to keep -- you are going to stay a part of the conversation. And the fact that what troubles us, we extrapolate it to reality, doesn`t just become just fantasy.
We are going to keep this going. And we`ll be right back.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: All right. We are live tonight, and again, we`re discussing this book, "50 Shades of Grey," and it`s creating quite a conversation amongst my female panel here, and my ladies are still with me. I`ve also got Judith Regan by satellite and Tucker Max and Mark Eiglarsh. Nikki has something want to go through right away.
NIKKI JOEL, LIFESTYLE BLOGGER: I do, actually, Dr. Drew. What if the roles were reversed? What if it was a female dom breaking in a young male --
DR. DREW PINSKY: Interesting question. I don`t think you`d have men reading this is the point. It would be sort of neither here nor there.
JOEL: So, would you be as upset if it was the guy being victimized?
DR. DREW PINSKY: If she was asking him to sign a document that effectively made him her slave, that`s what I have a problem with this.
JOEL: If document becomes kind of null and void, because, first of all, as they`re about to start talking, she`s a virgin, so, he has to teach her how to make love.
JOEL: But it`s like it is fantasy.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Well, that`s the point. Now, Tucker, I want to go back to you. I didn`t give you a chance to finish your comment. And I think what I was saying on the way out was that, as men, we look at these characters and go, who do we know in reality like this? Oh, yuck, this is a really sick person. I don`t want to really read about him, but finish your comment.
TUCKER MAX, AUTHOR: Well, what I was saying is that, Christian Grey, you basically have this fantasy of an alpha male, who`s a billionaire, who`s done all this amazing stuff, and then, also, like he`s this dark, brooding, sort of broken man who can ultimately be fixed by his woman, right? That`s just not reality. I mean, that`s such a preposterous fantasy.
MAX: I think about the extrapolation forward.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Go ahead. Finish that, Tucker. This can make everybody --
MAX: I cannot -- I can`t tell you how many women have come at me like sort of like I`m going to fix this guy, like, he has all of these problems, but he`s so amazing, but I`m going to be the one that fixes him. It doesn`t work --
JUDITH REGAN, SIRIUSXM RADIO HOST: That just shows you how desperate women are.
DR. DREW PINSKY: What do you mean?
MAX: Judith, you might want to speak for yourself.
JOEL: We`re all broken in our own way and we find the person so we can fix each other.
RAMANI DURVASULA, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: We`re talking about women`s sexuality, and we`re talking about them as desperate. That is not OK.
DR. DREW PINSKY: But you got to admit, this idea of fixing a partner is something that`s pathological, and we shouldn`t be encouraging that, and that`s what really bothers me about this.
DURVASULA: You know what, Drew, you`re drawing away from the original conversation, which is sort of the sensuality and the sexuality. You keep pulling away into discussion --
PINSKY: That part is a no-brainer. I`m all cool on that. By the way, I shouldn`t be commenting about women`s fantasy, right, you told me this at breakfast?
JOEL: absolutely not --
DR. DREW PINSKY: Hang on, my wife is going to talk.
SUSAN PINSKY, DR. DREW`S WIFE: Women need to have a sex life.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Yes, I agree with that.
SUSAN PINSKY: We`re allowed to have feelings like this. It`s not great in the media necessarily. There`s a lot of porn and erotica out there that is --
DR. DREW PINSKY: Destructive.
SUSAN PINSKY: Yes, there is, but this is really not destructive.
DURVASULA: Drew, at the end of the day, let`s take a long view here. Let`s think about women in our society. Have a job, raise your kids, be nice to your husband. Honestly, on Saturday night, to lie down, be tied up, and have someone go at it -- this is a relief. It`s kind of a brave.
JOEL: We`re not deciding when dinner is going to be and car pool and selling a house.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Mark, are you taking notes. I notice you`re lighting up with the last comment. It seemed to be going for you. Tucker is looking be wildered.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I love it. Drew, thank you. Thank you for talking about it. You create a buzz. Buzz increases sales. Sales increase women being turned on. That helps the husbands. We`re all good. Keep talking about it. Go ahead.
MAX: I think this conversation comes down --
DR. DREW PINSKY: Go ahead, Tucker.
MAX: Well, I was going to say, I think this comes down to kind of two separate things, right? I think the women on the panel seem to be saying that BDSM and a little bit of spice in the sex life is good and if this book encourages that, let it go. I agree.
I think, Dr. Drew, I think you and I are saying that a lot of people are going to see this Christian Grey character as some sort of model or some sort of person that you want to be attracted to --
MAX: And we`re kind of looking at --
MAX: How many kids watch "16 and Pregnant" -- how many girls watch "16 and Pregnant" and go get knocked up so they can be on MTV, Dr. Drew?
DR. DREW PINSKY: None. Stop it, Tucker. It doesn`t happen like that.
MAX: A lot.
DR. DREW PINSKY: No, it`s not a lot. Pregnancy is down. But anyway, I get your point. I get your point.
SUSAN PINSKY: What about "True Blood"? What about, you know, "The Misfits"? There`s worst shows out there on television that we see everyday --
DR. DREW PINSKY: You brought that one up, too. That`s so funny. These shows our daughter watches. It`s awesome. It does concern us. Nikki, you have something want to say. I`ve interrupted you.
JOEL: No, I just think --
DR. DREW PINSKY: Nikki with the dog collar, by the way.
JOEL: Yes. I am wearing my collar tonight. See? I actually got it for myself. My husband didn`t get it for me, but I think it`s about -- it`s empowerment. You`re becoming sexually --
JOEL: I can help you and go shopping for it. You become sexually wakened. You`re empowered by this. I mean, you read this book and you`re like, I want to try this or let`s do this or you`re making each other feel good. It`s like -- and then the love aspect is really what I think the females are responding to, that you`re falling in love and you`re also having a really hot sex life.
DR. DREW PINSKY: But Ramani, you`re the psychologist --
DURVASULA: I don`t think that being controlled by a man is empowering. I don`t see that at all.
DR. DREW PINSKY: I agree with Judith. I totally agree.
DR. DREW PINSKY: But she`s being enslaved. Listen, you guys, there was a book, Judith, you know the book, "Female Chauvinist Pig"? Remember that book? Did you read that one?
REGAN: Yes. Yes.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Where it makes this point that when there`s a severe power imbalance, it`s what the Stockholm`s syndrome is based on. When there`s a severe power imbalance, the person that`s completely disempowered will adopt the thinking and attitudes and values of the person in power.
This guy groomed this poor innocent girl to be that. I`m going to read you another excerpt. Ready? Here we go. This is going -- my eye (ph) is going to love this. Ready, you guys, gentlemen, camera guys. All right. Good.
"Suddenly, he grabs me tipping me across his lap. He plants his left -- by the way, they`ve told me in my ear to read this, so I don`t take any responsibility for this -- "putting a forearm in the small of my back, holding me down so I cannot move, very slowly, he pulls down my sweat pants, oh how demeaning is this, demeaning and scary and hot. He hits me hard. He hits me again and again." So, physical abuse.
JOEL: They don`t go back in the play room, and then, when she`s ready to play again, they kind of readjust the rules. It`s a give and take.
DR. DREW PINSKY: So, Judith, if I`m to understand this, if there`s some domestic violence and somebody doesn`t like it, they just readjust the rules, right?
REGAN: By the way, he`s like a pimp daddy, this guy, right? Because like a pimp, meeting this woman --
REGAN: And you`re going to be my slave and you`re going to do what I want and you exist only for my pleasure.
EIGLARSH: This is not a sex --
DR. DREW PINSKY: Mark and Tucker. Mark.
EIGLARSH: Drew, this is not a sex manual. It`s fiction. It is fantasy. End of story.
DR. DREW PINSKY: My wife told me that I can learn something from it, and the only thing I learned, gentleman, was that -- whatever you`re going to do, you got to say you`re going to do it before you do it. That`s the only thing he did that was unusual. Tucker, you had a point?
MAX: Well, no. I was just going to -- no, I was just going to say that I think what`s being lost in this discussion is like how pathologically awful and toxic this behavior is. And I actually read the book. And the things this guy does in the book are way beyond, I think, consensual, like fun BDSM, like this dude is a monster in this book.
JOEL: Did you read all of the (ph) books?
MAX: No. I was like Dr. Drew, I couldn`t finish one hardly, like, I definitely won`t make it through two and three. I mean, they`re terribly written. Drew is right about it. They`re awful, awful books.
DURVASULA: Here`s the thing. If these badly written books have opened a conversation about sexuality for women, have made women more in touch with their bodies in their bedrooms, I`m all for that. Any time, we can infuse more fantasy. And already, it`s women fantasy, and we`re making it sick. So --
DR. DREW PINSKY: I`m starting to feel worse as a result of this conversation.
DR. DREW PINSKY: No, no, no. And here`s why. This is really serious. Hang on, everybody. I`m feeling worse because what -- exactly what you said. Whatever the values their spouse, whatever the abuse, whatever the pathology, as long as there`s fantasy that`s evoked, it`s good.
And I take issue with that. I say no. I say no. I`m sorry, guys, it takes me all the way back to the "Today" show where I said this rolls back feminism 50 years. It`s violence against women, and it just is. Now, if it`s having a positive outcome and relationships are enhanced, OK, OK. But let`s not kid ourselves. These are really -- I`m sorry. I mean, I`m really disturbed --
DURVASULA: -- like, you know, psychologist to psychiatrist here in terms of things like around fantasy and working through and what a lot of that sexual space is for people. So, you start taking that away and saying some fantasies are right and some fantasies are not, then you interrupt a very natural process that you and I both worked on --
DR. DREW PINSKY: You`re bringing up a very important point. However, as Tucker says, you know, we look at this guy and say this is not somebody that anybody should be thinking of as a love object. And that`s you know, -- with tucker, I`ll give you the last word here because I`ve got to get out. This is --
MAX: Dr. Drew --
DR. DREW PINSKY: You`re the one that agrees with me, so go ahead.
MAX: Yes, I know. The guy is a toxic monster. I know guys like this, and they`re not fun, loveable people. Like, they`re disastrously broken monsters. And they`re not -- the way she`s written this character, he just doesn`t exist in real life. So, I mean, if you`re talking about an elf in "Lord of the Rings," that`s great.
The problem is, when you take pushing Grey and then you find a guy who thinks just like him, you create the situation. It`s going to be bad for everyone involved.
DR. DREW PINSKY: And I can`t help, and I`m sorry, and -- I completely agree I should not be judging women`s fantasy or things that, in any way, interrupt that, but, when you start talking about -- I can`t help but going to the reality of the people that are reflected in the stories, that`s why I said on the "Today" show, everyone is going to crucify me on the internet, and they go right ahead.
I`ve said what I have to say. I want to thank my panel. I want to thank my wife for being willing to be here.
JOEL: Can I just do one thing?
DR. DREW PINSKY: Nikki has got something for me.
JOEL: I have something for you to open up.
SUSAN PINSKY: Oh, gosh.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Is this right now or should we do it during the break.
JOEL: No, this is right now. This is very important that we do this right now. It`s the silver tie with Gs for grey. And it is not for you to wear to work tomorrow. This is for tonight`s activity.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Nikki, I will think of you tonight, I promise. We are -- my crew here loves this.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Thank you -- I think somebody will be back after I take calls from everybody out there. Everyone is coming back. So, we`ll wrap this up. First, we`re not finished. I want to take your calls. So, stay with us, we`ll be right back.
DR. DREW PINSKY: All right. Now is when I take your calls and comments about anything at all. And so, I`m all upset starting this thing off. Of course, I`ve given my silver tie. Those you guys, read the book. You`ll understand what that`s all about, but I want to switch gears, take some cleansing breaths here. Right up first, I`ve got Jewel. That`s right. The singer, Jewel, has a question. Go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEWEL, SINGER: Hi, Dr. Drew. It`s Jewel. I recently was dealing with a friend whose son was going through some hard time with drug addiction. And, I had heard you mention somewhere or thought you mentioned that if a child`s parent has drug abuse in their history, that they`re genetically disposed. So, when they call drug addiction a disease, I`m kind of understand what it means. Is it a disease because it`s genetically inherited?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY: Well, there is a genetic component about 60 percent of addiction is accounted for and the basis of genetics alone. And before you decide whether something is or is not a disease, everyone has opinions. Is addiction a disease or not? Let`s define what disease is, right, before you know whether something is a chair, you have to know what a chair is. OK?
So, disease. Here is a definition of disease. A complex relationship between the genetics of the individual and the environment that results in abnormal biology, pathophysiology, we call that, which is reflected in science and symptoms that follow a predictable pattern and have a predictable response to treatment. So, the genetic environment results in abnormal biology that has a predictable pattern to it.
Addiction categorically fits that. And as you asked, even the genetics and most cases, the probability of getting that genetic potential is about 50 percent, but genes are not destiny. Just because you have the genes doesn`t mean you`re going to get the disease. It`s usually an environmental reaction as well that triggers this genetic potential.
Karen writes, "Hi, Dr. Drew. Bipolar is such a misunderstood illness. I suffered many years before I was diagnosed. No doubt there are millions who struggled with it everyday. Well, that`s, in fact, the case and don`t realize it`s a mental condition. What are some warning signs people can look for if they have bipolar or any mental illness?"
Well, any mental illness is broader topic than I can bring into one quick segment here, but let`s talk about bipolar. There are two types of bipolar. Sometimes, where people get hypomanic episode, which is they have excessive energy. Charlie Sheen, as you saw him, everyone saw him in that state, he was a hypomanic episode.
They can even trigger into a manic episode, which is a different type of bipolar episode where they are really psychotic. They`re disconnected from reality. They will have these high episodes and the low episodes of depressed mood.
People maybe have excessive energy and excessive ability to accomplish things and then go through periods where they feel that they don`t have any energy and they have aches and pains throughout their body, and they can`t get anything done.
They may not even feel sad or cry. They may not identify that as the depression. It may just be low energy. So, those are the kinds -- and by the way, family history again, another important part. Genetics important to bipolar as well.
Amanda on Facebook writes, "I saw a news article about Eric Brockovich being banned from the school in Le Roy, New York. Were you, Dr. Drew, asked to stop covering the story about the ticking girls so more attention wouldn`t be drawn to them? No, We were not asked. The story just sort of run its course, and it`s looking like a conversion disorder.
We are still interested to know that there are not, in fact, any environmental issues out there that Erin Brockovich is going to continue to look into, and we support, and we`ll be reporting on that. But this is shaping up to have been a conversion disorder.
And as we predicted, if it`s conversion, they will settle down and remit on its own. There was a great article in "The New York Times" about this. I think it was today. So, if you want -- the whole story laid out very nicely, it`s there. Kam in Wisconsin, you got a question. What`s up, Cam?
KAM, WISCONSIN: Yes, Dr. Drew. I just watched your show yesterday with the senator from Wisconsin.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Oh, yes.
KAM: And his views on single mothers.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Right.
KAM: I am a single mother but not by choice. My husband was deported. I`m raising my children on my own.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Yes.
KAM: I just quit my job because I could no longer handle it because of my depression and anxiety and other medical issues.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Oh, boy.
KAM: And my children are suffering also --
DR. DREW PINSKY: Kam, let me stop you. You have how many kids?
KAM: I have two kids, a boy and a girl.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Two children. And you`re saying that what this Wisconsin State senator was doing was adding to your burden as a single mom, is that right?
KAM: Exactly. In every possible way. Physically, mentally, financially.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Listen, hats off to you for struggling to do what you got to do. My point yesterday was also, what about the dads of these moms. Why don`t we put pressure on them rather than put more burden on the moms? Don`t you agree with that?
I know your dad -- the dad was kind of a special situation, he was deported, but isn`t that where we should be putting the emphasis? No?
KAM: Yes, definitely.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Yes. All right. I agree with you.
KAM: My other question is, shouldn`t the lawmakers, in my case, be held accountable?
DR. DREW PINSKY: For what.
KAM: For, you know, the separation, you know, for making me into single mother and putting this burden on me, you know?
DR. DREW PINSKY: By deporting. Well, that`s your particular situation. I would need more details to know for sure. Thank you for that question.
Barb wants to know -- oh, this is here`s kind of a political question. "So many of the candidates these days seem to have giant egos. Do you have to be a narcissist to run for public office?" Well, I actually did a study on celebrities.
I`ve actually studied them, and they do have a narcissistic bent, you know, to be in the public, to sort of need to solve narcissistic issues with leadership and being out in the public, being a celebrity.
That is a sign of sort of narcissistic stuff. It doesn`t mean they`re disconnected from reality. It doesn`t mean they`re going to do a bad job. I mean, look through human history and American history and you`ll see lots of different kinds of mental illness issues, and people are still effective leaders and effective presidents.
So, I wouldn`t take issue with the fact that they may have some stuff going on, but I want to do a study that will look particularly at political figures and business leaders, and I think we`ll find the same thing that we found in celebrities. These are common problems today that people suffer with.
All right. Listen, we`re going to go back to my panel again. I know you guys can`t wait to get back to them. They`re pretty much all going to be here, and we`re going to try to wrap this thing up and get final thoughts. And I`ll go home with my silver tie. So, back in just a second.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Again, we are live tonight, and we`ve been discussing this "50 Shades of Grey" book. And I really thought it was an important thing because, apparently, this thing is really catching on and has some things that were disturbing me and worthy of discussion.
I`m back with my panel. My lovely wife has agreed to stay and I thank her for being here this evening and attacking me and Nikki is here, and Dr. Durvasula also. Nikki, you had a comment before we go.
JOEL: I just urge everybody to read all three of the books in the --
DR. DREW PINSKY: OK, I will not.
JOEL: OK. Maybe your wife will, and then she will tell you how wonderful it was.
DR. DREW PINSKY: OK. Because why?
JOEL: It just -- they evolve. They start at point A, and they think it`s going to be a certain way. And then, by Z, I`m not going to do a spoiler alert, but it`s a happy ending.
DR. DREW PINSKY: The pedophile woman that abused Christian when he was 15 becomes this obsessed lover that he has to break free off to be with Anna. Is that it?
JOEL: Not even close.
DR. DREW PINSKY: All right. Good.
JOEL: Tune in.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Good. Ramani, what do you have to say for yourself?
DURVASULA: Drew, I didn`t love the book. I mean, I`ll be honest with you. I thought some of it was sort of sensual, but it was about a sensual journey, and I don`t think enough women get a chance to read things that put them into that place.
I like anything that starts a conversation about sex for women, whether it`s fantasy, whether it`s reality, and you know, not with a sociopathic guy. I mean, find a (ph) nice guy that you bonded stuff with.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Right. That`s right. And I`m disturbed that -- by taking issue with the guy being pathological and he is, BDSM gets pathologized. And I think people misunderstood what I was saying when, you know, when I was saying that that`s an abuse survivor who`s acting his stuff out. And I don`t like people reading about that necessarily.
DURVASULA: But again, my concern with what you`re saying was I felt like a judgment was being placed on fantasy, and I`m very uncomfortable. That`s a very personal space, and I think people should really go to that - -wherever they need to go and take their place --
DR. DREW PINSKY: And once again, it points out that women`s fantasy life is very much up here between the ears and about reading it as my lovely wife pointed out to me this morning that I should stay away from women`s fantasy, that is your guys domain -- do you want to reiterate what you said to me this morning?
SUSAN PINSKY: I said I don`t want to judge anybody`s fantasy mind --
DR. DREW PINSKY: And certainly I shouldn`t be.
SUSAN PINSKY: No, absolutely not.
DR. DREW PINSKY: I should not. So, my dom told me I shouldn`t be doing that.
DR. DREW PINSKY: So, when the silver tie that Nikki very kindly -- and by the way, if you notice there`s a striking resemblance here.
JOEL: Party favors.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Thank you. I`ll be thinking of Nikki when she tells me --
JOEL: Are we saying laters baby yet?
DR. DREW PINSKY: To the audience. Do you have something to say before we go?
JOEL: Laters baby.
DR. DREW PINSKY: Is that part of the --
JOEL: Oh, big part of the book.
DR. DREW PINSKY: I miss that in the book.
JOEL: Big part of the book.
DR. DREW PINSKY: All right. So, listen, I hope this conversation was interesting, and I hope we got a chance to really talk about these things, and I hope people will give these kinds of things some thought before they consume them. I think another point that Judith made I thought was very important is how much stuff is out there that is abusive to women and demeaning to women.
And I sort of through this in that same category. Maybe I`m wrong for having done so. And I certainly, as I agree with my female panel here, my illustrious panel, I`m in no position to do that, and I should not be getting involved with women`s fantasies. But, to the extent that there`s lots in our culture that demeans women, disempowered men and watch out for people being groomed.
This is, I guess, the part that bugs me the most. People are groomed into a situation where someone is in control of them. I report on that nonsense all the time here where people in position of power abuse people they`re responsible for and they do it by grooming it and making them think they`re in control, but they`re special.
They have a special relationship, a special insight, and that`s how these people work their magic. It`s pathological. Thanks to the panel. Thank you all for watching. And I will see you next time.