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Bobbi Kristina`s Engaged; Mother Kills Child After Taking Pills

Aired March 15, 2012 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.

Whitney Houston`s daughter has a new man in her life apparently and Whitney`s mom said this is incest. I`ll tell you why she said it and why it`s not right.

Then, a young mother allegedly stabs her 6-year-old to death after taking diet pills and hearing voices. A lot of you called in about this one. I checked into it. What I found is pretty surprising.

And later, still, a toddler kills himself with his parent`s gun. How do we keep this from happening to our kids?

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Welcome and good evening. We`re coming to you live tonight.

And take a look at this video from TMZ. It`s creating quite a stir. The female there is Whitney Houston`s 19-year-old daughter, Bobbi Kristina. The male is 22-year-old Nick Gordon. Nick was reportedly raised by Whitney since the age of 12 and considered a brother figure to Bobbi Kristina.

As some media reports claimed, the two are dating. My question is: does this matter? If it`s true, is it OK?

Here`s what you`re saying on Facebook right now. Dianna says, "He`s not her blood. Why would it matter?"

Elle says, "If they are in love, they have my blessing. Who are we to judge?" Anyway, I kind of agree with her.

Cathy, I love this one, "I had a real problem with Woody Allen, but no, not this." Not this.

Nick Gordon recently denied he`s dating Whitney`s daughter, telling ABC News, "We`re just close, just going through her mom`s passing and grieving together."

Joining me tonight and shaking her head vigorously about that last quote is Nicci Gilbert. She`s a friend of the Houston family. I also have Dylan Howard, senior executive editor of "Radar Online".

Dylan, now, you`re reporting something I have a hard time getting my head around. You`re reporting that the two -- the young couple we just saw there, I want to lay this out for my viewers. That`s a couple. Yes.


PINSKY: I think we all agree with that.

Nicci, you agree?

NICCI GILBERT, HOUSTON FAMILY FRIEND: Yes. I guess our eyes aren`t deceiving us.

PINSKY: OK, it`s couple there.

But Dylan is going to report something that has me gobsmacked.

HOWARD: She walked -- she stepped out there and wearing an engagement ring, Dr. Drew. But even before we saw that engagement ring, this engagement occurred on Saturday. We had family sources confiding to us on Sunday that Nick Gordon proposed to Bobbi and she said yes. That report came out in "Star" magazine yesterday and on "Radar Online."

Make no mistake, those two are engaged.

PINSKY: So, you can say -- Nicci is laughing at this, but you can say they are focusing in on the ring here for you guys. Nicci, let me go to you. Should we be concerned with that? Should we be congratulating her? What should we do with this?

GILBERT: First of all, I think this is early reminiscent of her mother and her father 15 years ago. I mean, Bobbi Kristina obviously is grieving in her way. I think Whitney Houston obviously approved of this young man because he had been living in their house for some say 10 years.

So, I think we`re just way over the top of this idea she shouldn`t find love. And she shouldn`t -- obviously, they are grieving together. And I think it`s a good thing for her to have someone trustworthy, who`s been in her life for a very, very long time versus one of these vultures out there who`s going to take advantage of her.

HOWARD: Well, Dr. Drew, there are some people, though, that are saying Nick Gordon is indeed a vulture. He`s questioning his motives. That is what we have been told by Houston family sources.

Nicci, and you can say that and laugh when I say that -- but I must say, why is it that some people say that his motives should be questioned? Because he`s proposed after just one month after Whitney died.

GILBERT: First of all, hi, honey. How are you?

HOWARD: Good. How are you?


GILBERT: I think people have opinions everywhere. I haven`t heard Cissy Houston say anything about this. I think we should leave these circumstances to her family and the caregivers and the people who love her and are taking care of her. Everyone has an opinion.

That was part of the problem with her mother, all the sources that you have. I love you, honey, but you got tons of sources and I think sources need to be checked.

PINSKY: Let`s take a caller. We got a caller on the line. What`s the name the caller?


PINSKY: What do you have a question for us?

ASHLEY: I think that Bobbi Kristina had post-traumatic stress disorder since she was a young child. And I think she really needs to take heed to that and get some help.

PINSKY: So you`re saying, Ashley, it`s too soon? Just take care of herself and not make any big, important decision on the heels of such a traumatic experience as your mother`s death. That`s your opinion?


PINSKY: OK. Well, Nicci -- what about that, Nicci?

GILBERT: Because what`s the alternative for her to be balled up in a corner lonely by herself with no one there to grieve with. I think that they both --

PINSKY: You know what? I`ve got to tell you something. I have a sick feeling, a yucky feeling that we`re even doing this story. I got to tell you, Dylan.


PINSKY: I have a yucky feeling. I don`t think we should be reporting this.

HOWARD: It makes us feel icky. Of course, it makes us feel icky.

PINSKY: I`m reporting and I don`t feel good about it.

HOWARD: Especially when you`re considering that this guy has lived with the Houston for 10 years.

PINSKY: No, that`s not the icky part.


PINSKY: For all I know I`ve been --

HOWARD: I`ll tell you what the icky part is, and I`ve got Twitter up here on my phone. On November 24th last year, Bobbi Kristina tweeted I`m sleeping with my big brother.

PINSKY: Yes, I understand. But that is icky --


PINSKY: It`s icky if indeed --

GILBERT: First of all, we know -- go ahead, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Nicci. You tell me. What do we know?

GILBERT: I was just going to say, first of all, we know that Whitney Houston gave birth to one child, Bobbi Kristina. So she`s not sleeping with her brother. I think that --

HOWARD: She views him as a brother. She views him as a brother, always has, has for the last 10 years.

PINSKY: Do you know that? How do you know they are not in a relationship for the last 10 years?


HOWARD: Whitney Houston viewed this gentleman as a member of the family. He spent 10 years living in the Atlanta home. Still lives there.

PINSKY: Nicci, it`s a good point. For all we know, she may have been endorsing him as a potential son-in-law. They may have been involved all these years --

HOWARD: Here`s the difference between what Nicci said and what I know.

I know the source of our story. She doesn`t. Our source is reliable. The family is concerned.


HOWARD: The family is concerned that this man has proposed to Bobbi Kristina after she inherits the entire estate.

PINSKY: OK. So, they are concerned that he is taking advantage.


PINSKY: Are you sure the family is not concerned that they`re going to get cut out of this and they are motivated that way?

HOWARD: Perhaps.

GILBERT: Dylan, can I ask you a question? Can I ask you a question?

HOWARD: Of course, you can, Nicci.

GILBERT: Can I ask you a question for your sources? Who would you have her date? What individual -- would it be some random guy she meets in college? Would it be somebody that she meets on the set of her project? Who would you have her date?

HOWARD: What do I care who Bobbi Kristina dates? I`m just here reporting the data.

GILBERT: That`s my point.

PINSKY: That`s my point. What do I care who Bobbi --


PINSKY: That`s why I don`t feel good about it. That`s why I want to get to the next story. I wish Bobbi Kristina only the best. This poor girl is suffering. It`s a little weird that her so-called brother is showing up as a fiance. I hope that`s a good choice for her.

Nicci, I`m kind of on you camp. Let`s let this poor girl alone. Enough with these stories already.

HOWARD: She wants to be a star and she said to Oprah she does, she`s got to sign up for this, because this is news.

PINSKY: Well, Dylan, I know you`ll be there reporting it all the way. I need a shower now.

Thank you, Nicci. Thank you, Dylan.

Listen, coming up -- maybe I won`t need a shower after this story, but I`ll need some sort of purge. A child has been murdered and her mother is in custody. Next, I`m going to talk to you about what diet pills, hallucinations, and a defense of insanity has to do with this case and the woman you`re looking at right there.

We`ll be right back.


PINSKY: Reminder that we`re live -- and welcome back this evening.

Last Sunday, a woman was found naked running down a Las Vegas street covered in blood. Tonight, her daughter is dead and she is grieving. Now, obviously, losing a child is just unimaginable, but how this happened is even worse.

Take a look at this.


PINSKY (voice-over): If you`re a parent, a murdered child is your worst nightmare. But what if the accused killer is you? That`s the terrible reality for a young mother accused of stabbing her six-year-old to death with scissors. She says it happened after hearing her, quote, "laughing in an evil voice."

The question is why did this seemingly stable parent stab and bludgeon her child?


PINSKY: This is a despicable crime. To kill a child with scissors, that`s not just a single blow. Just think about that. This is somebody that had to go at it for quite a bit of energy and resolve.

The mother who did this allegedly, Danielle Slaughter, had been taking a weight loss supplement known as Hydroxycut a week before the murder.

Legal analyst ands host of "Deadly Sins," Darren (INAUDIBLE) -

DARREN KAVINOKY, LEGAL ANALYST: Kavinoky, common spelling.

PINSKY: I can never get it. Please give a chance to hold on you and repeat your name a couple of times.

Pat Brown, author of "Only the Truth."

And nutritionist and dietitian Lisa Fishman.

Lisa, does this make any sense to you? This Hyroxycut supplement -- have you seen people use it? Have you seen side effects?

LISA FISHMAN, DIETITIAN: Well, I have seen a lot of people come to my office and personally, I have never seen any positive result from it. I don`t know --

PINSKY: So it doesn`t work?

FISHMAN: Well, I don`t know if it causes weight loss. I`m not sure if there`s anything in it that would cause anybody to kill their child.

PINSKY: Becomes psychotic.

FISHMAN: To become psychotic.

PINSKY: I understand that one time, there was -- was it Ephedra was on it in the past?

FISHMAN: 2009, the FDA took Ephedra off the market. So, they took it out of Hydroxycut.

PINSKY: Now, Ephedra is actually converted by your body into methamphetamine. So, you`re taking up Ephedra, you can get psychotic.

FISHMAN: Correct.

PINSKY: Presumably, this wasn`t an old bottle of Hydroxycut.

FISHMAN: Unless they know when she bought it exactly, it would have had to have bought recently. There`s no Ephedra in that and there would be no reason that psychosis would occur that I can think of, that there are other things that could cause her possibly to become irate. There`s very high levels of caffeine. They say two tablets of Hydroxcut are 325 milligrams of caffeine. That`s three cups of coffee.

PINSKY: Darren, I think you better get my defense ready because I got way more than 325 milligrams.

KAVINOKY: Yes, those early wake up calls.

PINSKY: But does it drive you crazy to go to the stores? And just buy supplements --

FISHMAN: They are looking for an easy way, some way to lose weight without, you know, the hard work. I don`t know if that`s possible. But if it were, I`d be retired.

PINSKY: I was going to say, wouldn`t you the ones who know if it was possible?

FISHMAN: If it was possible, I`d be retired. So, you know, that`s --

PINSKY: All right. Not possible.

Darren, what about this insanity defense?

KAVINOKY: Yes. Well, it certainly is something we`re likely to see. Fundamentally, people aren`t punished unless there`s moral culpability. And the idea that because of this condition, she`s unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct. That is the genesis of an insanity defense.

What gets interesting here, though, and very nuance is when people voluntarily take drugs. Usually, they cannot avail themselves of an insanity defense because that voluntary action. However --

PINSKY: So the fact they took the drug means they were not insane at the time they took the drug, therefore, they are responsible for what happened.

KAVINOKY: Exactly. But where somebody takes a medication and there`s uncharacteristic reaction, something unanticipated, then it may be possible to still launch a successful insanity defense.

And so, here the fundamental question is how are we going to characterize that Hydroxycut? And then, of course, the other thing, from a legal standpoint, is there maybe something about diminished capacity. We saw this famously in the Harvey Milk case with the so-called Twinkies defense.

And so, here, that`s something that could turn this.

PINSKY: Lisa is rolling her eyes at Twinkies.

KAVINOKY: Roll your eyes away, but if it`s not guilty by reason of insanity.

PINSKY: It`s Twinkies.

KAVINOKY: Yes. But --

FISHMAN: But how do you know that the Hydroxycut was what caused the problem in the first place?


PINSKY: And, by the way, we don`t know if there were other medications. We don`t know if there`s other thing as well. And she may have just been manic and psychotic.

And the fact is I don`t know -- first, I`m going to read something that the Hydroxycut makers have given us we need to read. And then I want to read something, the control room has it for me.

The quote that they found her muttering when she was wandering around on the streets about having a blood of the way of the lamb. See if we can find that.

But, first, here`s the Hydroxycut quote, "This is a terrible" -- let`s get this up here. "This is a terrible tragedy. Our heartfelt thoughts are with the family at this difficult time. The circumstances are undoubtedly very complex and it will be a long time before we understand what truly happened here. We stand by the safety of our products."

Well, of course, they are going to say that.

KAVINOKY: Well, of course, they`re going to say that. And, by the way, also in the legal realm, there could be a civil lawsuit against the company that makes Hydroxycut if it was found that their product is culpable here.

FISHMAN: Well, how you would find out if she ever took it. I mean, you can`t test for Hydroxycut. It`s not like they ran a drug test on this woman when she was in the hospital. They could draw a Hydroxycut. It doesn`t come up --

KAVINOKY: There are lots of ways that you could prove that up in court.

PINSKY: Now, I want to go out to you. Apparently, they don`t have the quote directly, but this woman was walking around the street. She was disorganized. She ended up in a hospital for presumably for psychiatric evaluation. She had blood all over her. She was muttering about having the blood of the Lamb of God on her hands.

What do you make of this?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, first of all, I`d like to say, they have to do that psychiatric history, her behavioral history, her medical history -- they need to do all of that.

But I do have a problem with her story. Let me tell you what it is. She said she started taking that Hydroxycut four days prior to this happening. And within one day, she started feeling evil around her, yet she kept taking this Hydroxycut.

Then she says, on the day this happened, she felt evil in the house. So she didn`t send her child to school. She kept her child home, which makes no sense. You would think she`d get the child out of there. Nobody else is around.

PINSKY: But, Pat, if you`re psychotic, if you`re psychotic, everything makes no sense. Hold on a second. Pat, by the way, Pat, here`s finally somebody who looks really, truly psychotic. Are we going to make her a psychopath, too?

BROWN: I`m saying we have to -- I`m saying we have to look at her history. I don`t see that Hydroxycut should do that to her. And I`m saying, the story is a little suspicious.

Then after this happens, after she does this to her child, she rips off her clothes and starts running around naked.

Now, do you remember Mark Hacking case? After he killed Lori Hacking, his wife, he ran around naked, because that`s one of the things. When you see a naked person, you say, oh, my God, that person is nuts because we fear being naked in public.

Now, then she says she has the blood of the lamb, well, I`m not sure why because she said the child was a devil the time she killed her. So, she had the blood of the devil.

But you`re saying it doesn`t matter. She`s going to have crazy thoughts. But I have a problem with the fact she didn`t send her child to school. She kept her home when she said there was evil in the house.


PINSKY: You`re trying to -- no, I understand what you`re saying. You`re trying to make sense of the psychotic process, which I would caution people against.

But here`s a nice e-mail from Joan who says, "Diet pill defense my buns. You have to control your impulses. Murder is murder. Self-control is self-control. She should do a guilty plea if you ask me."

Darren, what about people who feel that way?

KAVINOKY: Well, it reminded me to challenge Joan if I run into her on a jury. There`s a lot more to the story. The bottom line is if there really is no impulse control, if there really is a psychotic --

PINSKY: That`s such a hard thing to prove. And that`s what Pat is getting at. Then it`s hard to prove -- Pat, you want to say that?

BROWN: That Hydroxycut is not the kind of thing to throw you over. Even if you take speed, quite frankly, you usually you run around cleaning your house and doing lots of fun things.

PINSKY: You`re right. Hydroxycut may have nothing to do with it.

I want to read another Facebook quote. This is from LeahAnne. She has this to say, "I think it is a post-Casey Anthony time where all the nut jobs think they can get away with killing their children and it`s thoroughly disgusting."

Insanity -- what I se in this country, Darren, is a lack of patience or any willingness to consider the possibility maybe because of Casey Anthony. We`ll call it the Casey Anthony effect, of anything other than culpability when somebody hurts somebody.

KAVINOKY: Yes, and it`s especially difficult in the area of mental health. And I`m sure you can appreciate given what you did (INAUDIBLE).


KAVINOKY: It`s not like a broken bone or something that somebody can readily see is wrong with the person. These mental health issues are exceptionally challenging.

And unlike what most people think about the insanity defense, it`s only brought in about 1 percent of the cases and only successful about a quarter of the time.

KAVINOKY: So, it`s not likely even if they bring that. Unless there`s an army of psychiatrists saying that this woman is actually a psychotic.

I got to take a quick break here. And this is interesting. Danielle, this woman that we`re talking about, was a no show for her arraignment yesterday. You`re going to find out why. We`re going to keep this conversation going. So, please stay with us.


LOUISA SLABY, NEIGHBOR: She`s in Heaven with the Lord. The mother, now she`s going to suffer. She`s the one that has to look back and think about what she did to her little 6-year-old daughter.



PINSKY: We`ve been discussing the horrific bludgeoning of a 6-year- old girl allegedly by her mother`s own hands. She`s accused of stabbing this little girl you`re looking at her with a pair of scissors. Afterwards, the mother went running into the streets covered in blood, very little clothing. The mother Danielle Slaughter claims her girl was possessed by demons, that there was an evil presence around the child and that she did what she did.

Her daughter was to be arraigned in Las Vegas courtroom Wednesday but refused to leave her jail cell, which caught the district attorney by surprise. Watch this.


STEVE WOLFSON, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Wen I learned that she refused to come to court, I was a little surprised. There will be more work done on this case. I`m sure her lawyers are going to have her examined by doctors and see what their doctors opinions are. I`m hopeful, on Friday, she`ll come to court and be presented and she`ll be asked whether or not she understands it.


PINSKY: Slaughter`s arrangement is rescheduled for tomorrow. The judge has ordered correction officers to remove Slaughter from her from the cell and bring her to the court if need be.

And, Darren, you`re saying that if she can understand things in the courtroom, she`s unlikely to be able to plead an insanity defense.

KAVINOKY: Well, there`s a difference between sanity at the time of the event versus sanity or competency to be able to stand trial.

PINSKY: So, competent to stand trial but will claim insanity.

KAVINOKY: It`s a separate issue.

PINSKY: And people, again, I want to report that my viewers, each of our viewers, do not have much patience with this stuff. They really don`t.

But, Lisa, you and I were talking briefly about the whole issue of supplements and people taking them and them being --

FISHMAN: Well, supplements are basically sold as a food. So --

PINSKY: So they can claim anything, they can be anything?

FISHMAN: Right. There`s no testing. The FDA doesn`t regulate them. They can put on the market at anytime. They can supposedly be sold to anybody.

However, to buy Hydroxycut, you`re supposed to be 18.

PINSKY: But they sell it to anybody.

FISHMAN: They sell it as a food. Right.

KAVINOKY: And, by the way, the warning label on the bottle that says it`s not designed to diagnose, to cure, to treat everything. It`s less committal than George Clooney with his girlfriends. It really --

PINKSY: And by the same time, it makes all kinds of crazy claims about how much weight you`re going to lose.

KAVINOKY: It caters to a population looking for a quick fix.

FISHMAN: They make it with calcium supplementation and vitamin D for women.


FISHMAN: It`s like healthy.

PINSKY: Healthy, it can enhance your bone density.

Pat, I`m going to give you last words here. Do you think -- let`s say the doctors come in and say this woman was psychotic at the time of she was found in the streets. Do you think that`s going to make a difference? Or are juries just tired of those kinds of defenses these days?

BROWN: Well, I think they want to hear that she had a behavior in the past of that, or there`s some real indication that this Hydroxycut could have really sent her over the edge, that she`s not covering up for herself. Or as a matter of fact, for somebody else. I mean, we have her, I think I heard the boyfriend found the body. We see women cover up for the boyfriend at times.

So the police have to make sure she`s the right person as well. And maybe the defense attorney will work on that one. But did she do it? Is there proof she did it and was she crazy at the time?

PINSKY: And I want to tell you -- you know, in my world, people get psychotic. People can have schizophrenic form of reaction. They can have bipolar disorder or manic, and they can be psychotic and really, really wild and really, really violent.

In my world, speed makes people that way, too. We don`t know if she was using any elicit drugs as well.

KAVINOKY: I suspect there`s going to be red flags. But it could go the other way. The absence of prior acts would point the finger at Hydroxycut.

PINSKY: Darren, people are sick of all of this kind of behavior. And they have very little patience with it.

Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Darren. Thank you, Pat.

And your calls and comments are coming up next.

And then a 3-year-old gets a gun from under a car seat, and shoots and kills himself. And you know what, there are a lot more of these cases. We`re going to talk about them after we take your calls and after this.



PINSKY (voice-over): A family stops for gas, and their three-year-old boy finds a gun in the car and accidentally shoots himself. He`s dead. The parents are heartbroken, and you`re calling with questions.


PINSKY (on-camera): All right. This is the part of the program where you call in with your questions. I`ll try to get some answers going here. Let`s get right to your call. We`ve got Sue in Elgin, Illinois. Sue, what`s going on?

SUE, ILLINOIS: Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Sue.

SUE: This is not, however, what you just mentioned. This is about the girls from Le Roy, New York.

PINSKY: Listen, I want this segment that when I take calls -- anything that want to talk about it. We always get some momentum with some topic going, but it doesn`t mean you have to ask about it. So, please, let`s go back to Le Roy. What`s going on?

SUE: I`m just wondering, I haven`t heard anything about the girls.

PINSKY: About the girls. Yes.

SUE: I`m wondering if they have these good signs.

PINSKY: Thank you for asking. Yes, that`s good sign, in fact. So, let me give you a brief update. "The New York Times," "Sunday New York Times" magazine, run up really excellent article. If you want to read a nice survey of story, really, they got the story right. They got the details right in that article.

And it really talks about the genesis of the problem, the probability of what they were dealing with, the controversy in it, and the fact that they are all getting better. That`s what we predicted. Remember, we kept saying, they`re going to get better, whether it`s due to the antibiotics or whether it`s due to it having been a conversion that just settles down on its own. We knew the prognosis was good, and law and behold, it is.

So, now, I got to tell you, though, we still have some open questions about the Erin Brockovich issues, the possibility of there being some chemical issues left behind. So, we`re going to follow up with her. It`s going to take her well until June, probably to really have all the details about that. OK.

SUE: That`s what I`m interested in, because I, too, have had a mysterious illness for --

PINSKY: Oh, yes, Sue. Yes, I hear you. I wish I had time to get into it, but I got to go to the next caller. Actually, it`s an e-mail. Karen has something to say about the young mom we spoke with last night whose kidnapped child was found eight years later. The Auboni Champion- Morin story is not adding up.

She says, "As a mother, I find myself torn. There`s more to this story. How are the other five kids? Will child welfare officials do a home inspection prior to returning the son home?" And the answer is, yes, there`s a lot of stuff she`s going through. She was telling me about it, but what I want you to know about her, though, is although I agree with you, there seems to be something vague about that period of history when the kid disappeared.

I mean, how is that possible? I mean, she can lose a child like that or why would she give it to a teenager? She was not doing very well back then. She kind of alluded to that, and that she`s had some treatment since. She`s been doing -- working with mental health services and getting a lot better, and she`s going to continue to work with them.

And that, to me, was one of the more positive signs about that story. She`s better, she`s thriving, and she`s still relying on those resources. That`s a good sign.

Mindy from Florida, you got a question. What`s up there, Mindy?

MINDY, FLORIDA: I have a question about the prescription drug abuse - -

PINSKY: All right.

MINDY: -- that you were talking about last night.

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.

MINDY: My mother is a cancer patient.


MINDY: And it took us weeks to get her prescription pain medication - -


MINDY: -- because no doctors will prescribe it.

PINSKY: You must not live in Florida. I mean, that`s bizarre. This is -- you know what, I almost can`t -- I don`t know what to do with that, Mindy, because -- it`s Mindy, right? Yes.


PINSKY: Here`s the deal. To me, that`s bizarre thinking. That means that medical professionals are saying to themselves, oh, this is a bad drug. I can`t give a bad drug to this patient. It`s not a bad drug. It`s what the drug is designed for, which is to treat particularly acute cancer pain.

I mean, if they don`t give it to your mom, when are they going to use those medicines appropriately? I`m so sorry. It must be miserable for you.

MINDY: It was terrible. For weeks, I watched her cry with pain.

PINSKY: Something is wrong. I`m disgusted. And I`m sorry. Something is wrong with the system you`re dealing with. And please don`t think that it`s because doctors are being cautious with the prescribing of opiates. That`s being ignorant with prescribing of opiates.

MINDY: And that was the excuse they gave. We have to be cautious --

PINSKY: I`m sorry. Go ahead.

MINDY: My main question is, how do we make addicts responsible for their actions instead of innocent people paying the consequences for their actions?

PINSKY: Well, I don`t -- it`s so complicated. We do have to hold addicts accountable for what they do. Absolutely, we do. And there`s plenty of consequences that come to bear when somebody has addiction. So, believe me, that`s part of the story here. But, it`s not that anybody else should be paying a price for how addicts behave.

It`s that we, as physicians, as caretakers, should be more sophisticated with the application. We really should be giving it to the right people at the right time, not the wrong people, the wrong time make them sick.

I want to take another phone call. I believe I have Robert out there. Can I go on to Robert? Robert, what`s your call?

ROBERT: Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hey, Robert.

ROBERT: I`m proud of the women who Rush Limbaugh talked about. Not once you talk to women like that, and that`s who I think you should be pulled off the radio station.

PINSKY: Rush should be pulled off. Have you noticed there`s been a lot of -- both sides. I`ve talked about this a couple of nights ago I think that people -- it makes -- it disgusts me the way people attack women in the media. Does it bother you, Robert?

ROBERT: It makes me so mad, sir.

PINSKY: Yes. Why is it bothered us so much? Really -- do you have a daughter?

ROBERT: Yes. I`ve got a daughter and a wife.

PINSKY: Yes. I have a daughter and a wife, too. And I`m offended for them. I`m offended for them that somebody would think and speak about women this way. I`ve heard people say horrible things about Michele Bachmann. I`ve heard people Rush say horrible things. And I`m telling you what, this is not OK.

And by the way, we seem to save -- reserve a special aggression for attractive, young women, you know, who are -- I don`t know why that evokes such negative -- the potential negative energy. We got to stop it. And Robert, I want to thank you for that call, because it, at least, raises the issue and the awareness about this.

Let me go to one more Facebook question. I`m running out of time. I`ve got Jacque. I believe that`s the name he says. It`s a Facebook. "I`m a director of an outpatient substance treatment program. I`m disgusted with drug companies and doctors making money by prescribing opiates to young people and then telling them that they have to be on Suboxone for the rest of their lives." Then, he goes on to say, "stop the insanity."

Jacque or Jacque, how you pronounce that name, God bless you. I completely agree. Finally here, Heather on Facebook. "My fiance" -- oops, it`s Vicky (ph), I beg your pardon. "When does being a neat freak turn to OC." Nope. This is Heather. "My fiance" -- come on. Let`s get it right here, guys. Heather or - I`m going to read you, Heather, OK? I got it in my card, at least.

"My fiance is a late 40s. his sec drive is slowing way down. Is supplemental testosterone a remedy or is there enough research to show it is safe?" It`s a very complicated question. Basically, now, he`s 40, so he`s pretty young, exercise, particularly heavy weights will help, get his weight down, adipose tissue, it accumulates and produces estrogen.

And then, finally, restoring testosterone to a normal level, probably a good idea if he`s done all these other things and still has low testosterone level. If he go above normal, there are risks of, maybe, prostate cancer, vascular disease. So, there are concerns of excessive testosterone. So, really, you should talk to probably a urologist about this or an endocrinologist, and also, make sure that the relationship is in good shape, because that may be part of the problem here.

Thank you for all your questions.

Next, a three-year-old accidentally kills himself with his parent`s gun. Would you believe? Get this, more kids die by guns than were killed in the World Trade Center collapse. Wait until you hear the rest. Stay with us.


PINSKY: Welcome back. Now, just a few hours ago, a mother was arrested and held on $50,000 bond after her nine-year-old son took a gun to school and shot an eight-year-old. Here is the victim recovering in the hospital.

Last night, a mother of a three-year-old went into a gas station, leaving her son and a five-year-old unattended. The boy found a gun under the seat and then accidentally apparently killed himself. No charges have been filed.

Last week a seven-year-old girl was shot by her brother using a gun from the glove box in the family van. Both children were the children of a police officer. The girl is dead. All three of these tragedies, get this, took place in one tiny county in Washington State. We have a problem here?

Joining me is Attorney Lisa Bloom, author of the book, "Think, and conservative commentator, Pamela Geller. Pam, is this story about the guns or about lack of parental supervision?

PAMELA GELLER, AUTHOR, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: This story is about unfortunate incidents that took place. It`s a terrible tragedy. I would hate to see that this painful accident would be used to further a political agenda used to exploit a political agenda. It was tragic what happened.

Who would have imagined that a three-year-old could actually undo his child seat and then find the gun under the seat of the car and then shoot himself? This is a horrible tragic accident. And my thoughts are with the family. They must be --

PINSKY: Of course. Of course, but Pam, we can`t avoid discussing the fact that guns left unattended. Guns are the perpetrating instruments here. And I blame the parents. I really do. I blame the gun handlers. I mean, that, to me, is the egregious part of this, but you blame the guns.

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, of course, the parents are to blame, but we, in this country, have no commitment even to requiring parents to lock away loaded guns when toddlers are around, and that`s how lax our gun laws are. We know how to speculate. We know that the United States has more guns per capita than any other country in the world. Number two is Yemen, an undeveloped country that`s riddled by violence. And so, (CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: OK. And so, because we have more guns than any other country in the world, we have more gun deaths. We have more children who are accidentally shot. We have more children who accidentally shoot themselves. This happens every day in every state --

PINSKY: Wait. What about Yemen?

BLOOM: -- in the country. No. I`m saying Yemen is number two in guns per capita. In other words --

PINSKY: Do they have the same problems there or they attended their guns properly?

BLOOM: My point is that no other country in the developing world allows the kind of guns that we have in this country. We`re just a wash in them. You know, inner city families are more likely in some counties to have a gun than a book. And so, we constantly see this. This is not unusual. We see this every day in every state in the United States. Children shooting each other --

PINSKY: Pam, I want to go out to you. More likely to have a gun than a book, is that out of necessity or is that really the source -- a symptom of the problem here?

GELLER: This is a false narrative. There are 50,000 deaths due to car crashes every year. Should we ban cars? Next, child death is due to drowning. What are you going to do? Ban pools. This is a false narrative.


GELLER: Lisa, I let you speak. No, because I let you speak. You have a very well on population in Switzerland with a very low crime rate, a very well on population in Israel. Yemen, this is a false narrative. And the guns that you refer to are illegal guns. Law abiding --


GELLER: It`s not a filibuster. You don`t discuss the lives that are saved by guns.

BLOOM: OK. Let me respond to the point. This is an important point.


PINSKY: Would somebody be held account, Lisa, if they didn`t put the fence around the pool, would they be guilty?

BLOOM: California, our state, used to have a very high number of child drownings. Families are now required to build a fence around pools. And guess what, the number of child drownings have gone down.

PINSKY: If the child dies, would they held accountable for that death?

BLOOM: Well, they should be if they`re negligent. I mean, that`s the fact --

PINSKY: Well, maybe, we should change the laws in regards to the people who handle the guns being responsible for any misadventures.

BLOOM: We can`t even get those laws passed, Drew. We cannot, in this country, require --


GELLER: This is what`s going on. What`s going on is you disarm the population, it`s like sheep to slaughter, because it`s the second amendment for a reason. The First Amendment is freedom of speech, and the reason why we have freedom of speech is it protects all speech, not just ideas that we like, because if you don`t have freedom of speech, peaceful men have to resort to violence.

The second amendment is the right to bear arms. And the main point of that from Thomas Jefferson`s point of view and the note, if you read the notes in the debate, was to protect you from a government out of control, tyranny. And gun control --

BLOOM: But this is --

GELLER: Hello! Can I finish? Can I finish?


GELLER: It is a path to tyranny. 1938. 1938. The Nazi gun control laws. 1938. Every single genocide --


GELLER: Hello! Every major genocide in the 20th century was proceeded by gun control laws. Yes, parents have to be more responsible. Parents need to be more responsible. Do you think these parents want something to happen to their children?

PINSKY: Hold on a second. Pam, I hear your point, and I agree with you that that is what Thomas Jefferson set out, that is what the leaders in old Florence, that was the reason for build forts was to protect people from the government, the government from the people. That`s how it used to be. I`m not sure that argument applies anymore, but I know that Thomas Jefferson did apply that argument.

I want to take some Facebook comments from people who watch our program. This is Bella who says, "We do not have so many guns in Canada, and I am glad."

Also, Deli Anne (ph) says, "Another accident, another victim of the ignorance of people who have been sucked in by the gun culture rule in most violent country on Earth."

And let`s see if we get some positive e-mails or Facebooks here. Mike, "A very sad story about bad parents who must be held responsible. Not God. Not guns. When are we going to start holding parents accountable?" That`s my point. Pam, do you have any feeling about that?

GELLER: Yes, I do. I think that the death of these children destroyed these peoples` lives. I honestly don`t believe that a nanny state is the answer to this. Accidents happen. This is purely anecdotal. And exception makes bad law. We have seen that time and time again.

BLOOM: So, a police officer leaves a loaded gun in a car, and a three-year-old gets his hands on hit and shoots himself in this horrific tragedy. There should be no legal consequences? I mean, that`s your position?

GELLER: I think that the fact that this man lost his child is a terrible, terrible tragedy. I don`t think he left it in the car for the child to find to undo his seat. He didn`t see that coming. Look, life is messy. Life is messy. (INAUDIBLE) happens, OK? And I think that this man is punished.


GELLER: His family is punished enough. They have higher crime rates. The more gun control, the higher the crime rate. The ultimate question is --


GELLER: So can I. Can I give you one quick example?


PINSKY: Let the host say one quick thing on behalf of the viewers, and that is, we had -- earlier in the show, we reported a mother who killed her daughter in possibly a psychotic state. People are not of mind to be making excuses for parents that are in any way held accountable.


PINSKY: Go ahead.

BLOOM: If I could please speak for one minute without interpretation. Thank you. We incarcerate more of our citizens than any other country (Inaudible). So, throwing people constantly in prison is not really the answer. We have to look at prevention. And we have to look at what other countries do.

Countries that are similar to us, Western Europe, Eastern Asia, and they have tens of thousands fewer gun deaths every year. Why?


PINSKY: We have a mess in our family systems.

BLOOM: No. I tell you why, Dr. Drew, because they used to have lax gun laws like we do. In the UK, for example, then they enacted very strict gun laws, and they have only a handful of people who die every year. They have reasonable gun laws like parents have to lock up loaded guns.

We have to have gun locks on guns. I mean, how could anybody possibly be opposed to that except for the far right gun extremists who say everybody should just have a gun including the mentally ill in Washington State.


GELLER: Nobody said that. Nobody says that mentally ill should have guns. This is the far left, once again, exploiting a terrible tragedy.

PINSKY: OK. Hold on, you guys.


GELLER: Listen, the ultimate question is, will allowing law-abiding citizens to own guns save lives? That`s the question.

PINSKY: Got to take a break, guys. Pam, thank you. I`m glad you got a chance to speak there. Lisa, you got what you need to say, and I think. We`re going to keep some conversation going. I want to take more calls and e-mails from you guys and get you involved, viewers in this, if we possibly can, so please stay with us.


PINSKY: We are coming to you live tonight, and we`ve been talking about children who are dead killed by guns left within reach by parents. I want to review for you the three cases I was talking about. An eight-year- old girl, recovering in the hospital, mother of a three-year-old leaving her son with a five-year-old unattended, a seven-year-old girl shot (ph) by her brother.

I mean, -- and that was all in one county. Pam, you say it`s creating a nanny state. Should we go after these parents or go after the guns? Which is it? Should we go after the parents?

GELLER: Listen, I just think you`re comparing a woman who stabbed her child to death with scissors. You`re going to ban scissors? With a parent who was sloppy, and it is terrible. I don`t disagree. You`re going to put the parent in jail who just lost their child. You act as if it was murder. It wasn`t murder. It was negligence.

Was it manslaughter? I guess, we`ll let the district attorneys and so on discuss that, but this is not murder. And these people going to live with this for the rest of their lives. They lost a child. Will it serve as a severe warning to those of us who do have guns to keep them locked up?

I know I was in my home, there was a gun. My father kept it in the safe. And frankly, you know, it did not pose any kind of a problem. If you own a gun --


GELLER: Most gun owners are very vigilant. There are hundreds of millions of guns in this country. You`re citing a couple cases.

PINSKY: Okay. Let me go to the viewers and see what their comments are. This is coming to us right now as we`re watching now.

Here`s Jean (ph) says, "Your guest, obviously, knows nothing about toddlers. Most children by age three know how to unfasten their car seat." OK. So, that`s how their kid was able to get out of the car seat.

Christopher, "Both guests need to have some respect for each other."

Mayacopa (ph), "I should be controlling the traffic here a little better."

Robert says, "Most of the gun crimes in this country are caused by unregistered or stolen guns, taking the guns out of law abiding citizen`s hands will do nothing but empower the criminals."

PINSKY: What do you say to that, Lisa?

BLOOM: I say that no one is talking about the middle ground, which is requiring by law, parents to lock up guns and to keep the ammunition separate, requiring --

PINSKY: So, you`re not going to go after the guns. You want to have laws around the guns.

BLOOM: Well, I would like to go after the guns, but most responsible gun owners would say, of course, we should require parents to be responsible gun owners. You don`t leave a loaded gun around a toddler. I want to emphasize that our laws do not require that. Why not? Because at the NRA and the far right gun lobby --

PINSKY: Here you guys go again. Lisa, you`re going to start taking aim at each other. Pam is going to start talking over you. I`m going to get accused of not letting you guys be respectful towards one another.

GELLER: Most parents do. And this is where the deception lies, and this is the false narrative. Absolutely most parents do. There are hundreds of millions of guns. And they are vigilant. And, there will be terrible things that happen. To hold them up as the example, as exemplar, is intellectually dishonest.

BLOOM: Most people don`t commit murder. We still have laws against murder. We have to be realistic. If they`re going to be negligent people, and we have to require them to be responsible by law so we don`t keep seeing everyday these cases of toddlers killing themselves --

GELLER: You don`t see them every day.

BLOOM: We sure do.

GELLER: There are a couple of hundred --

BLOOM: 30,000 a year --


PINSKY: You know, guys, I`m running out of time.


PINSKY: Hold on. I don`t have time to get into the data, but here`s what I do know. Pam, hang on one second, please. I got to get out of here. What I do know is that the HLN viewers are sick of people making excuses for deaths of their family and children. And, we want to hold people accountable whether the gun laws are there or not.

Thank you, Pam. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for watching. See you next time.