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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT
Interview with Gloria Allred and Lisa Bloom
Aired March 23, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Tonight, she's been at the center of many of the biggest legal cases of the last few decades.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: I think we're beginning to unmask Scott Peterson. We'll find out who he really is.
It is time for Tiger Woods to take responsibility.
Mr. Cain instead decided to provide her with his idea of a stimulus package.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Top lawyer Gloria Allred opens up as never before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: I'm intrigued by you. And I'm someone who watches your show almost every night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Gloria Allred, her passion for woman's rights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: It matters if any man hurts any woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Her daughter, Lisa Bloom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: My mother is brilliant and passionate and tenacious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: And the moment I never saw coming.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: I have a little gift for you.
MORGAN: Is it a lawsuit?
ALLRED: It's actually a subpoena.
This is from your audience, whom I'm representing. It's you to, Piers Morgan. I want you to tell us under oath how many times you have been properly in love, under oath.
MORGAN: I'm not accepting that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: PIERS MORGAN interview starts now.
MORGAN: One woman strikes fear into the hearts of powerful men from Herman Cain to Tiger Woods. If you've got a secret to keep, you do not want to hear that Gloria Allred is on the case.
She's the most famous female attorney in the country. She's been making headlines for 30 years. But the words that matter to her most is the crusade against discrimination and for victims' rights.
And Gloria Allred joins me now.
Gloria, I was trying to think of the last time you've actually sat to do an interview about yourself and not one of your clients. When was it?
ALLRED: Just like this -- never.
MORGAN: Why are you doing this?
ALLRED: Well, you invited me and I'm intrigued by you, and I'm someone who watches your show almost every night, and I'm just intrigued and also, of course, it's an opportunity to talk about empowering women, empowering minorities and the fact that we still have not won complete equality in this country.
MORGAN: And here's the fascinating thing about you, because I've been immersed in all things Gloria Allred for a couple of days. Let me give you a tricky one to interview, and you've been trying to push me away, from anything that's remotely sensitive about your life, and we'll come to those juicy little bits a bit later.
But here's the thing: there are two Gloria Allreds. There's the one that's done the following: you forced the L.A. County Sheriff's Department to abandon its practice of shackling women prisoners in hospitals as they went through labor. You argued for people with AIDS -- ALLRED: And childbirth.
MORGAN: And childbirth.
You argued for people with AIDS who've been let go from jobs, discriminated against in the marketplace, you won a settlement against Holocaust deniers on behalf of a survivor of Auschwitz.
You've chipped away at the L.A. district attorney Ira Reiner's intransigence until he endorsed a program to collect from deadbeat dads and so on.
All of these incredibly important, groundbreaking, courageous actions that you've fought, that are absolutely in keeping with the positioning of Gloria Allred as this crusading, campaigning attorney.
Then there's the other side -- which is, I don't know, some would argue slightly more trivial. In 1980s, you went off on the Elysium Fields nudist colony, for charging men more for lovemaking classes than it did women. You confronted the yellow balloon children's salon on behalf of a 3-year old who was charged $2 more for a haircut than her brother was for his.
And you waged a public campaign against Madonna claiming she recall a pro-choice song to make amends for "Papa, Don't Preach."
Which Gloria Allred are you?
ALLRED: Well, I'm the Gloria Allred who is an attorney at part of our law firm of Allred, Marco and Goldberg. I've been practicing law for 36 years. We are a civil rights law firm. We have won more women's rights cases and civil rights cases than any other private law firm in the nation.
We've won over $250 million for victims just in the last 10 years alone, and we believe that women and minorities are entitled to equality, to liberty, to freedom, and to dignity -- to equal rights in every way.
And you take that Yellow Balloon case for example, Piers, that you just mentioned -- that was a form of economic equality.
For little girls to be charged more for their haircuts than little boys, and in that case, we represented a sister and a brother, and that was a case of economic inequality, because it took the same level of education and experience and time, we alleged, to cut that little girl's hair as it did to cut the little boy's hair. And therefore, they should have not had separate pricing for little girls and little boys.
MORGAN: Do you believe that men and women should be absolutely equal in everything?
ALLRED: I do believe that, under the law, under the Constitution of the United States, and under our public policy, that women deserve and should have a right to enjoy equal employment opportunity. MORGAN: I agree with a lot of what you've done. I agree with 90 percent of what you've done. Some of the more trivial ones make me laugh, and they're probably publicity thinking, because it's good for business. I get that.
ALLRED: Well, I --
ALLRED: -- I don't agree with your assumption. I -- what we do is --
MORGAN: Really? Do you ever do anything for publicity?
ALLRED: We do cases of public interest and importance. We believe that women who are discriminated against -- and minorities, for example, people who are gay, people who are lesbian, people who are transgender or bisexual, what -- minorities who have been discriminated against, racial minorities, that they should have a voice.
MORGAN: I agree with all of that.
ALLRED: That their cases --
MORGAN: But how far does it --
ALLRED: -- matter.
MORGAN: How far does equality go? And I come back again to if a man is able to do -- and I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm throwing it out there. If a man is able to do something better than a woman, should he be entitled to be paid more money? Or should there be equality because simply because a woman may not have the power of a man to play to that ability?
ALLRED: It really depends on the particular facts. But what we're talking about is --
MORGAN: So what do you think? I have 80 percent female staff, for example.
ALLRED: OK. Well, but of course it's better than it used to be. But, you know, often people who are conservative -- I'm not saying you're one of those people, will look back and say --
ALLRED: No, I'm saying -- I'm not saying you're one of those people. I am not interested in characterizing it, but I'm saying some people are conservative, will look backwards, and they'll say, oh, it's better than it used to be. Well, yes, it is. But I look forward -- have we achieved equality under the law?
And the answer is clearly no. And I want our daughters to enjoy equal rights under the law. I don't want them to be sexually harassed on the job, and we have done many cases where women have been sexually harassed.
MORGAN: Do you feel as aggrieved for men who get treated badly by women bosses?
ALLRED: Well, we have --
MORGAN: Do you wake up and feel angry for the men? Or is it all women against men?
ALLRED: Well, we actually have had a number of cases, where we represent men who have been discriminated against in employment, on account of their gender.
But we've had those cases in the past. I objected many years ago -- and this was a well-known case -- for at the beginning of my career, when there was a commission on the status of women that was created, I believe in Santa Monica, and they excluded men from being able to participate.
And I went before the court, and I argued that that was discrimination against men, that men have a stake in the equality for women, and that men should not be excluded from that conversation, and especially not from a governmental entity that was going to opine about that.
MORGAN: Does it worry you that for all the very good cases you fight, where there's clear evidence of discrimination or harassment or whatever it may be -- does it worry you that you have almost single- handedly created an atmosphere, a culture, perhaps, where people who want to try it on, and who want to make a few quick bucks, like claiming discrimination and harassment, can now do that because of this atmosphere that you have helped propagate? Does that worry you?
ALLRED: No, not at all, because we are a plaintiff's law firm. We screen our cases very, very carefully. We make sure that we have the facts. We've investigated the facts. And you know, we can only take a small number of a little of the cases that people ask us to take. So, no, the weak cases, we are not taking.
But I'm happy when women who believe they have been discriminated against on account of their gender seek the advice of any attorney, whether it's myself or anyone else in the country, and say, I feel that I've been discriminated against on the job, or sexually harassed.
Is there something I can do about it? Do I have a strong enough case?
I don't want them to judge that themselves. We act like private attorney generals in enforcing the rights. And we look forward to women standing up and asserting their rights, and protecting their rights and vindicating their rights in a court of law. And we're very proud of those women who have the courage to do so.
MORGAN: And men.
ALLRED: And men as well, but -- MORGAN: Occasionally.
Let's take a little break, come back and get into some of the more high-profile cases you've taken on.
ALLRED: Love it.
MORGAN: Because you seem to be popping up with almost all of them, Gloria, one of the more predictable elements of any scandal is you and that a little red top of yours.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: Mr. Polanski was able to victimize another child while he was a fugitive from justice.
I think we're beginning to unmask Scott Peterson. We'll find out who he really is.
It is time for Tiger Woods to take responsibility for the deep pain that he has inflicted on Veronica.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Just some of the high-profile cases that have had Gloria Allred all over our TV screens in the past few years, and she's back with me now.
I mean, you do pop up when you're -- I guess the people you're taking on least want you to. And for that reason, you've become the kind of legal agent provocateur, haven't you? Do you like that status?
ALLRED: Well, I like empowering my clients. I like providing them with a voice that they otherwise might not have, because I think they matter. The typical person matters, not just celebrities in our culture matter, and this is what we do.
We go up against the rich, the powerful, the famous, big corporations, government, celebrities, batterers, wrongdoers, killers, wrongdoers of all kinds, sexual harassers.
And we allow that individual person to fight that -- I'll call it a David and Goliath battle, or David and Goliath battle, and often win. And yes, people say, oh, my God, I mean, how could you go up against them?
I mean, these celebrities, often, they have their entourages. They have their PR people and an army of lawyers and their managers and everybody else. And who does that individual person have? They have us and they get to have a voice.
MORGAN: Roman Polanski, I totally get, because there you have very serious allegations of serious sexual misconduct. Tiger Woods is an interesting case to me, because he's a golfer. What really is the public interest in exposing Tiger Woods when it comes down to -- yes, there's the role model argument and he's making money for whoever, Gillette or whoever it may be.
But actually, does it matter what Tiger Woods does in his private life? Why did you feel compelled to expose him?
ALLRED: Well, it matters if any man hurts any woman. And in the case of Joslyn James, whom I represented, she was hurt. She was deceived. She was lied to, and he never even offered an apology. They had a --
MORGAN: She was a porn, right?
ALLRED: They had -- she had -- she was an adult film star, yes.
MORGAN: And she went on to make an adult movie based on Tiger Woods' text messages.
ALLRED: Well, she, you know, she has a right to have a career. She gave it up for him.
MORGAN: Yes, but how's that --
ALLRED: Let me just say, he asked her to give up her career because he was jealous that she would be with anyone else. She did at great economic sacrifice to herself.
ALLRED: And then --
MORGAN: But she doesn't seem to have been --
ALLRED: After the scandal -- yes, she had to go and make a living.
MORGAN: Yes, but I mean, go and make a living, she would have made a porn movie starring Tiger Woods' text message. I mean, how hurt could she have been if she felt able to do that? That's my point.
ALLRED: You know, those of us who are -- lead a more privileged life and are able to make a very nice living the way you are and the way I am, I don't think we should look down our nose at other people who have to make difficult choices about how they make a living. It's not for me to sit here --
MORGAN: No, no, don't get me wrong.
ALLRED: -- and judge or second-guess how anybody makes a living -- I'm so glad that anyone is able to work. MORGAN: Rewind. I wasn't making any moral judgment about her career. She's perfectly entitled to be in the entertainment industry. My point is, how hurt could she have been by Tiger Woods if she then just, the moment it was over, went out and made loads of money making porn movies starring his text messages?
It seemed to me that she was one of the cases where you were at your weakest, and you've had so many where you've been very strong. And I just wonder sometimes, when you watch what she did afterwards, do you slightly sit back and go, maybe I should have left that one alone?
ALLRED: Not at all.
ALLRED: No. I'm --
MORGAN: (INAUDIBLE) for you.
ALLRED: No, I mean, you know, I'm not a politician that sits there and puts my finger in the wind, sees which way it's blowing.
I'm going to stand up for women. I've stood up for women who are adult film stars. I've stood up for women who are judges, secretaries, factory workers, farm workers -- you name it, we've had it, just about. And I --
MORGAN: Do you ever regret afterwards taking on cases, because of the way that perhaps the person you've been defending or prosecuting on behalf of, because of their behavior afterwards, you have moments of self-reflection afterwards?
ALLRED: No, I'm so proud of my clients and the courage they've shown. You have no idea.
We are living -- I feel I live in a war zone every day for women, where we are fighting for their rights against very powerful, very well-funded forces, and I'm just so proud of the courage of my clients, because they come in. They're often crying -- like at a glass table like this, tears all over the place.
And then I see them evolve into -- from victims to survivors to fighters for change and standing up and being empowered, and then going on and empowering their children and their coworkers and other people in their community.
MORGAN: Where does, for example, the rights of Tiger Woods' wife override the rights of the adult entertainment star who's been having an affair with him, who just feels a bit, you know, aggrieved by the fact he isn't actually going to stay with her? Where do the rights of his wife come into that, in terms of your moral compass?
ALLRED: I wouldn't characterize the fact that Ms. James was upset that he wouldn't stay with her, OK? It was his lying, it was the deception, it was the way he treated her, after three years of an intimate relationship, over a thousand text messages, and flying her around and making her feel that she was the only one.
As to his wife, of course she has rights, and I assume that she asserted them, and I'm glad that she did so, because that would be her right.
MORGAN: Yes, but you know the point I'm getting at, right, is that, you know, you sort of paint a very compelling picture, because you're very eloquent about this, of this poor, unsuspecting adult entertainment star who got duped by Tiger Woods --
ALLRED: Well, do you think it's OK, Piers, for men to lie to women and break their hearts? I don't. I make no apology for that.
MORGAN: No, what I wonder, though --
ALLRED: I don't think that men should be able to hurt women and then just walk away and throw them out like a piece of garbage.
MORGAN: But she knew that he was married.
ALLRED: Well, of course she knew that he was married, but --
MORGAN: Does she -- does she not care about Ms. Woods?
ALLRED: Of course, she did. But do you care about women being hurt by men whom they trusted, whom they loved, who they had every reason to believe loved them?
MORGAN: I get that.
ALLRED: I mean, that's it. And do you care about the rights of women? Do you care about all those women across this country who are being hurt, and men treat them like, oh, well, they're just an afterthought. They're a footnote. They can walk away after being in a long-term relationship.
MORGAN: I'm not condoning any of it. What I'm saying to you is, though, that if you're Ms. Woods, and you see this adult entertainment star claiming my life's been ruined, and then she just goes out and starts making movies --
ALLRED: She didn't say my life's been ruined, and, again, you know, again, those of us who have a lot of opportunities shouldn't look down on those who are trying to make a living.
MORGAN: No, no.
ALLRED: And I -- and you know what, I make --
MORGAN: -- trying to paint me as a -- ALLRED: I don't represent his wife. I don't know what her thoughts were, but I --
MORGAN: No, I'm not making any moral --
ALLRED: -- I'm glad that she stood up for herself.
MORGAN: I think it's interesting about -- I'm not making any moral position or argument about what she does for a living. What I'm saying is, if you go out after all this, after you've gone public and said, Tiger Woods treated me really badly, he lied to me, he broke promises and so on -- fine.
But if you then go and make these movies, based on his text messages, all that's going to do is really add to the hurt and humiliation and public shame of Tiger Woods' wife. And I'm curious as to where you representing that client would have a view about that kind of behavior and say maybe that's not a good idea.
ALLRED: You know, I just don't sit in judgment of my clients. If they have to --
ALLRED: They have to survive. They have to make a living. I'm proud of her that, you know, she's trying to make a living. And, you know, not everybody has a lot of options to make a living like you do and like I do.
Let's come back after the break and talk about the political cases, because there I'll have a little bit more sympathy with your clients.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: Mr. Cain instead decided to provide her with his idea of a stimulus package.
He did suggest in his earlier emails that he was aware that a potential Twitter sex scandal might occur, and that conservatives were behind it.
Until she decided to run for governor in 2009, it appears that Ms. Whitman had no problem or concern about employing an undocumented worker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Whenever there's a big political scandal making TV headlines, you can be pretty sure Gloria Allred will be there, or thereabouts.
And she's back with me now.
I think you're on much stronger ground with a lot of these political cases, because you look at whether it's Anthony Weiner or Herman Cain, Meg Whitman, Arnold Schwarzenegger and so on -- you know, I can see the arguments there, and clearly they can, too, because most of them resign or, you know, they get into political fallout as a result.
What is the motivation for you? Is it ever political? Or is it always strictly legal?
ALLRED: Well, we represent victims' rights. That's basically who we are as a law firm. In the case of Meg Whitman, we represented the housekeeper who wanted to speak out, that was also an employment case. And we felt that that was an important issue, a public interest and concern. And we also went ahead, by the way, and recovered wages that she was due from Ms. Whitman.
In the case of Herman Cain, we had Sharon Bialek, who wanted to speak out. So we helped to empower her, helped her to have a voice to speak out, and to speak the truth, I do think the truth matters, Piers. And it may make some people uncomfortable.
MORGAN: Should having an affair preclude a man from running for office?
ALLRED: I think that if --
MORGAN: Because if it was -- if that was the case, then there would be no JFK, there would be no Bill Clinton, there would be no Newt Gingrich. I mean, there would be lots of people who'd been at the top of American political life who would simply never have had careers. So, where do you draw the line?
ALLRED: Well, I think that politicians, if they are going to seek the highest office in our land, the presidency of the United States of America, they need to be honest with the American public, and just put it all out there, and not be hypocrites, not present themselves as the perfect family man. If they played around, if they've had affairs, just put it out there. And the public will decide whether they think it matters or not.
MORGAN: Newt Gingrich has now been pretty open and said, look, this is all in my past. I'm married now for the third time. I'm very happy. I'm a changed man.
Are you happy with that? Are you happy for him to restart politically, if you like?
ALLRED: Well, let me just say -- I mean, I'm not a person who's going to vote for any of the potential Republican nominees for the presidency of the United States.
But not for those reasons -- for the reason that they are against the right to choose abortion, and I believe that women must have safe and legal and available abortions in this country, and I'm not going to be willing to go back to the days when states had a right to criminalize abortion.
And right now, we've got like 88 percent almost of all of the counties in the United States, a woman can't even get an abortion even though it is legal because of all the harassment of doctors, the harassment of the clinics, the threats that are made against them, the constant restrictions that certain legislatures are placing on a woman's right to choose abortion, and that hurts the poor. It hurts the young, and it's just absolutely wrong.
So I can't support any of those potential nominees for that reason, and also because they're not willing to say that gays and lesbians should enjoy marriage equality.
And that is an affront to their dignity. It is an affront to the respect that gay and lesbian individuals have a right to enjoy. To say they should have some other status, like civil unions, rather than full equality, we fought in our law firm for six years in the California courts and we won a case in the California Supreme Court.
And as a result of another case that we argued in the Supreme Court, 14,000 couples were permitted -- gay and lesbian couples -- permitted to marry in California. So I'm against all those Republican nominees because they won't support equal rights.
MORGAN: I get it. I have a shocking thing to tell you. I agree with you.
Let's have a break, and come back and talk about your passion, particularly about the abortion issue, because you went through this incredibly harrowing experience when you were younger. You were raped at gunpoint, and you were impregnated, and you had to have an illegal abortion. You nearly died, and that, I think, is a strong motivating factor for why you feel so passionate about this. And I totally understand why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: You know, I feel that it is time to support the brave woman, Jane Roe, who was also under attack. Many of us believe that Jane is being attacked because she's a symbol in the abortion debate, and because she had the courage to speak out in support of her Supreme Court case. An attack on her is therefore an attack on all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That's Gloria Allred speaking out for the woman known as Jane Roe, 16 years after Roe v. Wade.
The year was 1966. You went to Mexico on a vacation, you met a doctor -- and to cut a long, horrible story short, he took you back to a motel room and at gunpoint, he raped you. And he made you pregnant.
And you then had to have an illegal abortion, which nearly killed you, a real-life defining moment, I would imagine. Tell me about that experience, and tell me how much of a motivating factor that's been in turning you into this crusading, campaigning woman -- particularly for issues like abortion rights and so on.
ALLRED: Well, most women, including myself, are feminists because of their own life experiences. In other words, I've never had a women's studies class. I wish I had.
But I am a person who strongly believes in fighting against violence against women and the right to choose legal, and safe and available abortions because of my own life experience and because I had trouble collecting child support.
I think there should be better child support laws to make it easier for those single moms to support their children so they don't have to go on welfare.
Yes, it's my own life experience. And because abortion was illegal at the time-- not illegal for a woman to get an abortion -- but illegal, a crime for a doctor to perform one, it was unsafe and illegal.
There -- it was what many of us call our women's Vietnam. More women died or were maimed by illegal, unsafe abortions when it was illegal than, frankly, men ever died or were maimed in Vietnam, and that was horrible for so many men and for their families.
But this is an overlooked fact, and that's why I feel so passionate about fighting to make sure that women have their reproductive rights.
And I want women to be trusted, Piers. I want to trust women with the choice as to whether they have an abortion, not these politicians in Washington or in state legislatures. No one else has the right to make that choice for women. They should have that right.
MORGAN: What happened to that guy that raped you?
ALLRED: I have no idea.
MORGAN: Did you ever see or hear of him again?
ALLRED: I never did. I went back to the United States. I saw at the time, who was I? Nobody was going to believe me against a well-known Mexican doctor. I never thought that I could do anything in Mexico. It never occurred to me.
And so I just came back to the United States.
MORGAN: You never found out what happened to him?
ALLRED: Never found out.
MORGAN: What are your feelings towards him now? ALLRED: You know, I generally don't look back. I look forward. But I take what I believe was an extremely negative experience and I try to turn it into a positive. It helped me to understand others, and I have represented many women who have been survivors of violence against them, of rape, of child sexual abuse, of other kinds of violence.
And I think I have a sympathy for them, an empathy for them because I have lived it. And because I have lived it, I can help them to become empowered and put this all in perspective -- not to forget it, but to put it in perspective, to know that there are many choices you can make to help others, given your experience.
MORGAN: We're going to bring on your daughter shortly, but the man that was her father, somebody you married when you were both young, he turned out to have a bipolar condition that wasn't identified at the time, and he was pretty abusive to you, physically abusive to you. Very sadly, later committed suicide.
How much did that shape, again, the passion you have for these women's rights? Because it sounded an awful experience for you.
ALLRED: Well, I mean, I was in love with him at first, and I met him in college, and you know, there's a lot positive that I remember about him. But of course, ending up as a single mom, raising a child on my own for a number of years, it really taught me a lot and helps me to have sympathy for others.
And I will say, a positive thing that came out of that relationship is that I have a beautiful daughter, who I think is brilliant and sweet and understands her duty to her family and to her community, and lives her values. And so I'm proud that I --
MORGAN: Were you able to forgive --
ALLRED: -- I have my daughter.
MORGAN: Were you able to forgive your first husband for the abuse when you discovered about this bipolar?
ALLRED: You know, it wasn't about forgiving. I always wanted him to be able to have a role in my daughter's life because I believe that when you get divorced from somebody and you have children, you're getting divorced to them because you want the other parent to be able to continue in that child's life in a way that is safe for the child, and try to -- I try to look to the best in people.
And I am basically an optimist, and I -- and I look for the best, but I do prepared for the worst.
MORGAN: You had a second marriage, 18 years, to William Allred. You still have his name. That ended badly, and you got divorced, and he went through criminal charges for various things. It's been said that you felt very betrayed by him, but you've never really said why.
ALLRED: And I never will. But all I can say, that was then and this is now.
And, again, I'm focused on helping women, helping minorities, and that's what my life is all about, and I'm blessed to be able to have this life. I'm privileged to be in a law practice with my partners, same partners for 36 years, Michael Maroko and Nathan Goldberg and other wonderful partners and associates that I have there.
And I'm just to be able to do what I do, and try to win change and work to win change and make it a better life for others, so that they can go on in their lives. And that's what I'm focused on. It's really not about me. It's about helping others. And that's what I believe.
MORGAN: Let's bring out -- let's bring out somebody after the break who you have helped, indisputably. You raised her as a single mom, through thick and thin, through the tough times and the good times -- Lisa, welcome.
BLOOM: Thank you.
BLOOM: How great is my mom?
MORGAN: She's pretty special, your mother.
MORGAN: Back now with my guests, Gloria Allred and the one person who probably knows her better than anybody else, her daughter, Lisa Bloom, a fellow attorney and author of the best-seller, "Think: Straight Talk for Women to Stay Smart in a Dumbed-Down World."
BLOOM: Thank you.
MORGAN: She's quite a feisty one, your mother, isn't she?
BLOOM: She's given it to you, hasn't she?
BLOOM: I was watching in the green room.
MORGAN: She gives it to everybody.
BLOOM: My mother is brilliant and passionate and tenacious, and really nobody can beat her in a debate, so I don't even try.
MORGAN: Well, I mean, you're like two peas in a pod here.
ALLRED: She's the new improved.
MORGAN: I'm going to be -- I'm going to be very ungentlemanly, but for one good reason, because I think people will be shocked by the answer. Tell me how old you are.
ALLRED: I'm 70.
MORGAN: You see, you do not look 70. Does she?
BLOOM: I'll answer, too. I'm 50.
MORGAN: That's even more ridiculous.
MORGAN: -- are defying normal age convention.
BLOOM: It's not a crime to get old, although a lot of women in this town seem to think that it is. It's silly. We should be proud of our age. We should be healthy and take good care of ourselves --
MORGAN: Yes, but it's a lot easier -- it's a lot easier being proud of your age if you look as glamorous as you two do.
ALLRED: Well, you know, especially considering the alternative to getting older. Getting older is just great. As a matter, in this country, I think women should get medals for getting older.
MORGAN: Your mother's a fascinating creature in many ways.
BLOOM: She is.
MORGAN: -- because --
ALLRED: Thank you.
MORGAN: I just harassed, I called you a creature.
ALLRED: What a good girl she is. (LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: No, here's the interesting thing about you. So you haven't had a vacation since the early '80s. Is that true?
ALLRED: And no one can remember when I took a vacation --
MORGAN: You never have a vacation?
ALLRED: I've had a vacation -- well, years ago, I took my grandchildren on vacations --
MORGAN: You just don't have vacations --
ALLRED: I don't want vacations. MORGAN: Why?
ALLRED: Because I have too much to do to fight injustice that still exists for my clients, for women and minorities.
MORGAN: You have a 10-year-old car, is that true?
ALLRED: I do.
MORGAN: (INAUDIBLE) 10-year old --
ALLRED: That's one of my cars.
BLOOM: It's not so bad. It's a nice car.
ALLRED: It's a nice car.
MORGAN: You don't -- apparently you don't collect art, you don't really collect material things.
ALLRED: I don't care about that.
BLOOM: She got a couple pieces of art.
ALLRED: Artists wouldn't call them art but, in any event --
MORGAN: I think the point is that material things don't seem -- people may look upon Gloria Allred, from all they've heard about you as being, oh, she's only in all this for all the money. I don't get that sense when I've researched your life, that money is the motivating factor for you. I just don't.
ALLRED: Justice is the motivating factor, you know, providing a voice for the voiceless, power for the powerless, hope for the hopeless and justice. That's what I am all about.
MORGAN: Tell me about this sort of passion that you have.
BLOOM: If you're in it for the money, you're not going to be a plaintiff's civil rights lawyer, and I know from working with my mom for nine years that many of the cases that she does, she does for free, OK?
The way you make money as an attorney is you work in a gigantic law firm and you represent Fortune 500 companies. You can be guaranteed at least a couple million dollars a year and a partnership in a firm like that, for years and years and years. So, it's not about the money. It's about justice. You think when she represents a 3-year-old in a haircutting salon case, it's an economic injustice case, you know, that's a profitable case? It's just not going to be.
MORGAN: Of course.
MORGAN: But then -- but then I come back to the Tiger Woods case that you heard us debating earlier where I kind of think, why would this women, who does all this incredible stuff, take on a porn star to basically flim/flam Tiger Woods, really?
BLOOM: Can I -- let me respond to that, Piers, because --
MORGAN: What do you think?
BLOOM: I'll tell you what I think. My mother represents farm workers. The press doesn't cover those cases.
MORGAN: Yes, but tell me about Tiger Woods.
BLOOM: Let me explain, because she represents Holocaust survivors.
MORGAN: I know.
BLOOM: Cocktail waitress in an age discrimination cases. But wait, OK.
On this show, we've spent, what, maybe 50 percent of the time talking about the Tiger Woods matter. That's one case in a career. Why does she get blamed for the media shortcomings?
The media obsesses about one or two cases, which are important in another --
MORGAN: No, no, no. I'm not letting you get away with that.
MORGAN: No, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
BLOOM: The gay rights case she took --
MORGAN: I am not letting you get --
BLOOM: -- the Supreme Court.
MORGAN: I'm not letting you pin it on the media. The media did not parade this adult entertainment star to the world -- BLOOM: -- covers it over --
MORGAN: -- saying Tiger Woods --
MORGAN: -- lied to me, blah-blah-blah, and then (INAUDIBLE) because, I think it's interesting --
BLOOM: -- for half the interview.
MORGAN: It's an interesting moral dilemma. The fact you're so exercised about it confirms I've rattled the cage.
BLOOM: No. The point is, why aren't we spending half the show talking about age discrimination or farm workers or gay rights or animal rights, or the --
ALLRED: Or the age discrimination case that we won?
BLOOM: Most of what she does.
BLOOM: And if the media doesn't want to cover those stories --
MORGAN: Here's my point.
BLOOM: -- why does she get blamed --
MORGAN: Lisa, here's my point --
BLOOM: Her career's very balanced.
MORGAN: Here's my answer: precisely the reason why Gloria's career is not centered all the time in terms of the publicity it attracts on the cases that you've just quoted to me is that you're not coming in here, saying, ask my mother about the Tiger Woods porn star, because you instinctively know that's not what she's proudest of. And that's my point.
BLOOM: She's very proud of it. She's been defending it for the first half of the show, and I'll defend it, too.
MORGAN: Were you as proud?
BLOOM: Absolutely. You know what? You know what? Because every woman deserves a voice and deserves to have her rights enforced. And I think we have a real --
MORGAN: Then she then goes out and makes another --
BLOOM: Let me finish. Let me finish.
MORGAN: -- movie about his text messages?
BLOOM: May I finish? Because --
MORGAN: Doesn't it cheapen everything else?
BLOOM: May I finish, please?
BLOOM: OK. We have a real double standard in this country about the porn industry. The men at the top who make billions of dollars from it are received in the highest circles. The women at the bottom, who are the performers in a legal industry are, you know, sneered at as if they're nothing, as if they're just dirt. And if they have a press conference, you know, everybody likes to --
MORGAN: But you're doing the same thing your mother did. She's trying to --
BLOOM: Because that's the reality.
MORGAN: No, you're trying to make out that I'm casting some moral judgment over her career path, I'm not.
BLOOM: Then why are you saying "porn star," as if that's relevant?
MORGAN: I'm just wondering whether, when your mother takes on a case like that, which is obviously so high-profile, obviously going to get so much attention, when you see this victim as she's being portrayed, go on to make another movie --
BLOOM: Well, so what?
MORGAN: -- in which she uses Tiger Woods --
ALLRED: -- do you want her -- well, do you want her to go on welfare instead?
ALLRED: -- profession or the occupation that she's involved in?
MORGAN: I guess most people will say how hurt and how much of a victim is she if she feels she can go make a porn movie out of it?
BLOOM: But, you know what? A lot of working people are hurt by things, and they keep working because they have to work. That's the reality.
So, she's not just going to roll over and die. She can be both hurt and continue to work.
MORGAN: And exploit it and commercialize it?
ALLRED: And she's a victim. And why don't you spend as much talking about the fact that Tiger Woods should apologize to the women that he hurt?
MORGAN: He did apologize.
ALLRED: He didn't apologize to Joslyn James. He should have had a private meeting with her or at the minimum, called her on the telephone and said --
ALLRED: -- I acknowledge -- yes.
MORGAN: Let's have a break, let's come back and talk about you two, your relationship and whether you think your mom should find love, get married again -- or whether or not she just wants every man trampled into the dust.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TINA FEY, ACTRESS: I'm sorry, Jason, that's not what it sounds like. It's just that I'm very lonely and I would like to give you a bath.
JUSTIN BIEBER, PERFORMER: I'm going to be contacting Gloria Allred. This is not all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Tina Fey and Justin Bieber on "Saturday Night Live," proving there's no bigger legal star than Gloria Allred -- what a moment. Justin Bieber giving you a name check.
Oh, my God. You two are, I mean, I would say it's almost bordering on double trouble, isn't it? I mean --
ALLRED: I certainly hope so.
MORGAN: It really is, and I can take one of you on, but the pair of you, even in commercial breaks you've been hammering me.
BLOOM: You can try, go ahead.
MORGAN: Well, do you like having this famous, infamous mother?
BLOOM: I love my mother. I'm very proud of her. She -- everything you see here, this is who she is.
BLOOM: You don't get to see her wicked sense of humor as much --
MORGAN: Do you feel --
BLOOM: -- in these kinds of interviews.
MORGAN: Does she get mischaracterized, do you think?
MORGAN: How much of that is her own fault for taking on cases which are inflammatory?
BLOOM: None. None. You know, I wrote a book --
BLOOM: No, I'll tell you why, because the American media has deteriorated in the last decade to this level of celebrity obsession. College students can name more Kardashians than wars we are in. Why? Because our media will break into network programming with some silly story about a sex scandal.
MORGAN: Wait a minute, often involving your mother's press conferences.
BLOOM: No, I'm talking -- you know, why aren't we obsessing about our military battles and about the poor of the world? Or about people who are --
MORGAN: Why does your mother take on celebrity cases?
BLOOM: Listen, we're talking about the media. She doesn't control the media. She has a broad range of cases, most of which are on behalf of ordinary people, probably 98 percent --
MORGAN: Why do you feel as strongly as this? Can you not persuade your mother to drop all the scandalous celebrity cases?
BLOOM: Because I don't consider them to be scandalous celebrity cases.
MORGAN: Your mother (INAUDIBLE) but not the media.
BLOOM: Let me finish the sentence.
MORGAN: Is that right?
BLOOM: They're not scandalous celebrity cases. They're on behalf of human beings. I represent some celebrities, too. I represent some reality show stars in very serious cases.
MORGAN: Why? BLOOM: The media -- because I care about them and they have viable -- they're human beings, Piers.
MORGAN: How can you blame the media? You're going to represent them and have press conferences --
MORGAN: -- and draw attention to them. I don't get it.
BLOOM: Because these are people, for example, who have been abused by a network or by somebody else on the show and they have a right to justice, just like the big stars do. And that's why they get represented and often get battles won by my mother or by me, because they have somebody who believes in them.
MORGAN: OK. Let's down -- let's down weapons for a moment.
Your mother has been through two difficult marriages and divorces, and I guess, you know, you're -- you look pretty amazing. I'll just keep saying this -- I will say that, but I hope I'm not harassing you by saying that, but it's -- you do. You both do.
ALLRED: You'll get a complaint filed.
MORGAN: (INAUBIBLE) on eggshells.
ALLRED: I'm waiting for the -- how many times I've been properly in love.
MORGAN: I was about to ask you.
MORGAN: How many times have you been properly in love, Gloria?
ALLRED: OK. Well, before I answer that, I have a little gift for you. MORGAN: Is it a lawsuit?
ALLRED: It's actually a subpoena.
ALLRED: I am presenting you with this subpoena that I brought, and this is from your audience. OK? Whom I am representing and it's to you, Piers Morgan, and I want you to appear --
ALLRED: -- deposition very soon to tell us, under oath, how many times you have been properly in love -- under oath.
MORGAN: I'm not accepting that. I didn't touch it.
ALLRED: Take it. MORGAN: I didn't touch it.
BLOOM: Take it like a witness.
ALLRED: Take it like a woman.
ALLRED: In other words, with courage and strength.
MORGAN: Now, come on, answer the question.
ALLRED: All right. How many times, properly? Should I count being in love with my computer or --
MORGAN: No, with men.
ALLRED: OK. All right. Well, oh.
MORGAN: Or women. I'm not going to discriminate.
ALLRED: Well, of course, both of my husbands, and, of course, my family and --
MORGAN: Any other men outside of your husbands.
MORGAN: Would you like to fall in love again?
ALLRED: No, I don't have time, and I don't want to make that investment. My life, the rest of it, whatever gifts God gives me, I'm dedicated to helping to empower women and minorities to fight for justice, to show them that they have more strength and courage within them, to win justice that they're entitled to, than they've ever realized they have.
That's what I want to do with the rest of my life. I love it. I do it every day, 24/7. If I didn't have to sleep, I'd be doing it then as well.
And, no, I'm not interested in having a relationship, except with my family and my clients.
BLOOM: People have a hard time understanding is that single women can be very happy. And my mother is very happy. So if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
And especially older women, women who've been married and then have divorced, and they reach a certain age, a lot of them say, I don't want that any more. I'm really happy with being able to make whatever choices I want in my life, to do whatever I want to do. And I think that's my mom.
So because of that, I've stopped noodging her about dating.
MORGAN: Well, the big -- the big question -- I can't even imagine what dating you would be like, Gloria.
BLOOM: We have a say -- we have a lot of offers. We have offers from younger men especially.
BLOOM: Much younger men.
ALLRED: We have a saying in the women's movement, become the person you wanted to marry. If you want to marry a person with a sense of humor, develop that sense of humor in yourself. If you want to marry somebody who's going to protect you and take care of you, become that person yourself.
MORGAN: Gloria, I've got to leave it there.
I have this big question with you is: are you predominantly a force for good or a force for evil? And I have concluded you are a force for good.
ALLRED: Oh, thank you so much.
And you know, Einstein said the world is a dangerous place, not because there are evil people in it, but because there are people who don't stand up to fight evil. That's a paraphrase, but I believe in that, and I believe in helping people to win change in their lives because they deserve it. Your daughters deserve it, and so does mine.
MORGAN: I agree.
Good for you, Gloria. It's been a pleasure to do battle with you, and your equally combative daughter, Lisa.
ALLRED: Love it.
MORGAN: Thank you both very much.
ALLRED: Thank you.
BLOOM: Don't mess with my momma.
MORGAN: Never going to mess with either of them ever again.
That's all for us tonight, a combative evening.
"A.C. 360" starts right now.