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Aired April 5, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: On the show tonight, a man allegedly shoots his two dogs and then his wife because he says the dog defecated on the floor. What are you going to do? I`m looking at what made this seemingly normal guy snap.
But, first, a former NFL cheerleader and teacher is accused of sexually abusing an underage student. Her mother is siding with her and so is the alleged victim`s family. So, how far would you go to defend your child?
So, here`s the things we`re going to look at here. Mothers defending daughters. Remember Cindy and Casey Anthony? Are we tough on women who use their sexuality as a means of employ?
I think we may be giving this teacher a bad rap. Though I have no patience with teachers that misbehave or doctors, or anybody else in position of authority.
And finally, the man that shot his dogs, perhaps there`s a medical explanation for that, because that was bizarre, out of context behavior.
So let`s get started now.
PINSKY: All right. Tonight, I have a former NFL cheerleader who stands accused of sexually abusing a 16-year-old student where she taught English. Former Cincinnati Bengals cheer captain Sarah Jones pleaded not guilty to first degree sexual abuse and unlawful use of electronic devices, which is interesting. It sounds bizarre.
Yesterday in court, the family of the 16-year-old boy was there to support Sarah.
Joining me tonight, clinical psychologist Michelle Golland. I also have Owen Lafave, whose wife Debra pleaded guilty to lewd and lascivious battery after a sexual encounter with a 14-year-old in 2004. And attorney Lisa Bloom, she is author of the book "Think."
All right. Lisa, I guess the first question is, would this be handled differently if this were a male adult perpetrator?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I think there is no question that female accused perpetrators get much more of a pass in our criminal justice system than males, and Owen can speak to that. I mean, Debra Lafave is a perfect example. Her attorneys argued she was too pretty for prison. I mean, can you imagine saying that a male sexual predator is too good looking to go to prison? That would never fly.
And the studies are, in fact, that female defendants across the board especially these kinds of cases get lighter sentences. They get kid gloves at every stage of the justice system.
And that`s a shame because, Dr. Drew, as an attorney I represented males who were sexually abused by adult females and I`m hear to say the harm is lasting and profound and these women should not be given a pass.
PINSKY: Yes, Michelle Golland, I`m sure you`ll agree with exactly what Lisa is saying, which is that when you look at the outcomes of these young males who are sexually abused by women, even though the world goes, oh, lucky dude, way to go, man -- the outcomes are horrible. More addiction, more sociopathy, more serious problems.
MICHELLE GOLLAND, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. And very serious problems and difficulty in female relationships. I see that all the time. Just as Lisa, with her clients, with my clients as well on that end. That they struggle in relationship for having been -- this is -- this is a violation of their rights and being able to have choice.
PINSKY: Lisa, by the same token, though, we`re looking at pictures of this young cheerleader. Do we have a tendency to be too tough sometimes in the media, at least, at jumping to conclusions about women who are attractive and use their sexually maybe to make a living? And I want -- it makes -- I wonder about that since we have a situation here where this kid`s family is supporting this young woman which makes me wonder if these allegations aren`t false.
BLOOM: You know, Dr. Drew, this is why I love you. You`re one of the few people on TV who has the guts to ask that question.
And I think the answer is, yes. We have a love/hate relationship with women who are cheerleaders, who are sexy, who are strippers, who are prostitutes. You know, we love to show them on camera. You know, men lust after them.
When they do something wrong, we want to throw the book at them, right? And that`s a shame as well.
I mean, this is a young woman. She`s a teacher. She is presumed innocent. It`s very interesting that the victim`s family is standing behind her.
I want to know if the victim is standing behind her. Is that because she`s innocent? Or that`s because he says it was consensual? Because we know a 16-year-old might think that, but it can`t be consensual. A 16- year-old can`t drink, can`t vote, can`t have a job full time, can`t drop out of school.
A 16-year-old legally is a world apart from a young adult in their early 20s. That`s why they`re not allowed to have sex with adults.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. We know that, that`s brain development.
GOLLAND: You talk about that all the time.
GOLLAND: That`s why being able to have 18 as the consensual age is because of brain development and how they actually understand the consequences of their actions.
PINSKY: There are two things, Michelle. I would say one is the brain development as you mentioned. But the second thing is the young people have a way of perceiving as though they`re giving consent when in fact they`re getting manipulated in a situation. I think about Mackenzie Phillips (ph) who talks about this with her dad, feeling like she was romantically involved with her dad. Yet he was the one manipulating her into that state.
This isn`t the first time that Sarah had a sex scandal. So, we`re going to look a little bit more what`s going on with this young woman.
A few years ago, the website The Dirty, not the greatest resource, they put photos up of her accused her of sleeping with the NFL players. She responded to that posting on ABC`s "20/20." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH JONES: I could not face my students, my faculty members, my -- the school board. I was completely embarrassed because it`s devastating to read those things about yourself. I think I sent 20 to 30 e-mails. The damage was already done. I just wanted the pictures down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Owen, you`re the only one of us that has actually been through something like this personally. Do you have a take on what`s going on with this woman? Does your instinct tell you anything about what`s going on here?
OWEN LAFAVE, FORMER WIFE HAD SEX WITH STUDENT: Well, the fortunate thing here, Drew, I think she`s got no credibility at this point. I mean, whether those things that were posted and, in fact, you know, on this Web site, it`s third party people that are posting information on the site.
But, you know, you have to believe where there`s smoke there`s fire because, of course, those allegations of her sleeping with the team happened in the past. Here, again, I mean, now she`s arrested for allegedly having sex with a minor while she`s in a position of power and trust and authority as a teacher. And she resigned from her position.
I think if you`re innocent, you fight, right? In this case, I mean, she decided to run away.
PINSKY: And, again, you having been through all this -- do you have any feelings, yourself, about these kinds of cases? I imagine, you know, I imagine you do. So, let me just put that out there.
LAFAVE: Absolutely. You know, I think at first, you know, I have a tendency to try to look for parallels. And here you have an attractive teacher, an English teacher, just like my ex-wife was, who was very well- respected. And when something like this reaches national media attention, which, you know, of course my case did, very difficult.
You know, I remember feeling like I was standing at the edge of an abyss wishing someone would push me. So, very difficult I`m sure for her as well as, you know, her people around her that support her.
But I don`t want to lose sight of the fact that potentially we have a victim here in the boy. And you know, I was very encouraged by Lisa and Michelle`s comments because there is a double standard. And these boys are victims.
PINSKY: Owen, I want to ask you one other kind of delicate question. You were in a way one of the victims as well of Debra`s behavior as were your children. How did you react when you hear people, you know, encouraging this behavior by the young male? Oh, he`s so lucky, she`s so hot, those kinds of indelicate remarks.
LAFAVE: Well, I`ll tell you -- before this happened to me, Dr. Drew, I`ve probably been one of those people with that opinion. But after live through that myself and just the pain and the anguish, I have a different perception. As well as I worked on a documentary where I had the opportunity to interview a number of boys that were victims and it gave me a completely different perspective.
And it really I guess opened my eyes. I`m sensitive to, you know, all sides of something like this.
PINSKY: Michelle, you want to make a comment?
GOLLAND: Yes. Well, one, I want to applaud you for doing a documentary and exposing these --
PINSKY: It`s amazing.
GOLLAND: -- the real truth about what sexual abuse of younger boys can be. And the thing that I`m also upset about is how these parents of this young boy are responding, if this is the truth, that they are hiding that fact. I guarantee you when that 16-year-old is in his 20s, he isn`t going to appreciate what his parents did. He`s going to have the perspective of hopefully after therapy and so forth of what, how they truly let him down and the fear of other children, other boys in that school.
Because the fact -- I don`t care that she`s a cheerleader, I don`t care that she`s pretty. I don`t care about any of that. The fact that she is a teacher -- I don`t care that Kentucky is 16. It doesn`t matter.
GOLLAND: The fact is she a teacher and in a position of power.
PINSKY: As you and I know, when a position of authority, when you are setting the model for relationships that have to carry through into adulthood, you violate that trust. You end up crushing those young developments. You really do.
Thank you, Owen. Thank you, Michelle.
Coming up next, famed victim rights attorney Gloria Allred joins us. She also happens to be Lisa`s mom. Imagine that. We`re going to get the take on a mother`s role in this scandal.
So, stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: I think that I hit rock bottom when I had a student say she would never learn from a slut like me again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nick says, hey, she`s out there wearing no clothes, half naked pictures, she`s supposed to be a teacher.
JONES: But I never posed with less clothes than a bathing suit on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
That was former NFL cheerleader Sarah Jones on ABC`s "20/20". Now, she pleaded not guilty yesterday to charges of sexual abuse involving a 16- year-old student. Sarah`s mother, Cheryl Jones, indicted on accusations there she is there -- she tampered with physical evidence. I guess she erased some text messages or something.
So, a mother breaking a law to save her daughter -- an interesting dilemma, but not an unfamiliar one. Remember some thought that Cindy Anthony perjured herself in court in a desperate attempt to save her daughter.
Now, Lisa Bloom is still with us. I assume if Lisa ever broke the law, she`d have one of this country`s great lawyers, her mom, Gloria Allred, right there to defend her.
So, Gloria, before we get to moms and daughters, I have a question. By way, it`s great seeing you guys sit side by side.
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Thank you.
BLOOM: Do we look alike, Drew?
PINSKY: That`s what I was going to say.
ALLRED: You better not break the law or you`re in bigger trouble than you`ll be with the law, I can tell you that.
BLOOM: That`s true.
PINSKY: Now they have seen it. That`s where I wanted to get to. Where were you in this case? This seems exactly the kind of thing you jump in the middle of.
ALLRED: I`m not sure what you mean about where am I in the case? I don`t do criminal defense.
PINSKY: Ah. Got it.
So, Lisa, would you have your mom break the law for you if it potentially could save you from serious consequences?
BLOOM: OK. Well, Drew, you know, I wasn`t born yesterday. So, if I was going to break the law or ask somebody to break the law, I don`t think I would admit on national television that I would do such a thing.
So having said that, you know, I think the better path is probably to live a clean life like I live and like my mom lives so we don`t have to ask for favors like that.
PINSKY: All right. Blah, blah, blah.
So, Gloria --
PINSKY: If we ask Lisa if these accusations are true, let`s say the teacher sexually abused a 16-year-old, do you agree there would be more outrage as Lisa talked about in the last segment if this was a male teacher abusing a female student?
ALLRED: Do I think there would be more outrage? Probably, yes.
BLOOM: Or tougher sentence.
ALLRED: I think there would. Absolutely yes.
And by the way, I thank God that I don`t think I will ever have to be in the position of considering whether or not I would tamper with evidence, which I would never do. And I know that Lisa would never even ask me to do that.
And no mother should do that because there are potential criminal consequences if you do that even if it`s because you love your child, you want to help your child. That`s not the way.
BLOOM: And I can also say, Dr. Drew, that, of course, there are many things you can do within the bounds of the law to help a family member in legal distress. The first thing is to get them the best lawyer you can possibly find to help them with the legal fees, help with evidence gathering, you know, private investigators. Whatever the attorney advises you can do. There`s a lot that family members to.
And when I represent clients, I love having supportive family members who are going to hold their hands, help through the emotional aspects of it. So, you certainly don`t have to tamper evidence or break the law to help a family member.
PINSKY: But, Lisa, you`re going to be on your own. I heard it from your mom, you`re on your own. So, anyway --
ALLRED: Yes, I cut her loose so fast. It would make your head spin. No --
BLOOM: I wouldn`t ask my mother to commit a crime. That`s only going to hurt her.
ALLRED: You know what? You don`t want to do that, and you want your mother available to help you, to be supportive of you.
BLOOM: To hold a press conference for me. Would you do that?
ALLRED: You know, to be supportive of you in every way that`s legally possibly if, as, and when you are in trouble.
Now, the mother is charged with a possible crime. Are they going to squeeze the mother, put pressure on the mother to testify against her own daughter in exchange for a deal for the mother? I don`t know. This is not a good situation.
It wasn`t a good situation when Monica Lewinsky`s mother was forced to testify against her daughter. Nobody wants to be in that situation.
PINSKY: There you go. I completely get what you`re saying. It`s a great point -- though I am going to find a way to cause a fight between the two of you so you can quit hugging there.
What I want to get into is what`s making this case tricky is the boy`s family, as we talked about, doesn`t want to press charges. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your Honor, it would be (INAUDIBLE) request that a condition of bond be no contact between the defendants and the victim or his families in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The alleged victim`s family is here supporting these defendants today, Your Honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So the victim supports the defendant. I guess my question to either or both of you is, why does the D.A. go on with this case?
BLOOM: Oh --
ALLRED: Because it`s a case brought by the people of the state for violation of the law of that state or the alleged violation of the law. And that`s why a victim is, in a sense, a complaining witness, is a witness for the prosecution. It is not the witness` case.
BLOOM: And even if the victim isn`t complaining, Dr. Drew, as you know, many times minors who have a sexual relationship with an adult, the law calls it sexual abuse but the minor thinks, we were just having a relationship. The minor doesn`t want to go to court.
You know, a lot of people try to deter minors from going to court and testifying against an adult. That may be what`s happening here. I`m strongly against that.
Kids, yes, they`re anxious about going to court, but in my experience, once they go and testify against somebody who abused them, it`s a healthy, even cathartic process.
So, I hope that`s not what`s happening here. I hope the family isn`t standing behind somebody who`s guilty of child minors.
ALLRED: And minors tend to think, especially if they`re teenagers, that they have consented, they can consent, and then they blame themselves if in fact the person who`s been the sexual predator has taken advantage of them and they don`t really know -- they don`t have the ability to know that they were the ones taken advantage of.
BLOOM: They think it`s their fault.
BLOOM: It`s not their fault.
Any kids watching this if it`s happening to you, it`s not your fault.
PINSKY: And, Gloria, I`ve got less than a minute here, but I wanted to get your take on this idea that how tough we are -- Lisa commented on this earlier -- of women who use their sexuality. We crush them in the media.
And is it possible this young woman -- let`s assume she`s not guilty. Do we give women a bad rap just because they wore a bathing suit or is Bengals Tiger cheerleader outfit?
ALLRED: She definitely is entitled to that presumption of innocence, unless and until she`s proven guilty beyond reasonable in a court of law. Yes, we tend to look at a woman who`s sexual -- at least appears that way in the bikinis or cheerleader outfit -- and think, well, maybe she is not innocent, maybe she really wanted it.
But we really need to wait for all the evidence to be put on in the court of law.
BLOOM: We certainly cover the cases more, don`t we, Drew? You put the pictures up over and over again.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, OK, your point well-taken. I would say, it`s women more than men even that are tough, tough on women. Gloria, Lisa, thank you so much.
A student of legal age having a consensual age having a relationship with his or her teacher? Should it ever be legal under any circumstances? We`re going to speak to an assemblywoman who is fighting to make sure it never happens. That`s up next.
PINSKY: With the classroom scandals of late, I wouldn`t blame parents if they were frightened even to send their students to school. Remember the L.A. Unified School District, a huge sex scandal, where some students were allegedly blindfolded and photographed. Remember that story we reported on?
So, how do we deal with this problem?
Joining me by phone is California Assemblywoman Kristin Olsen, she introduced a bill that would make it illegal for teacher to have relations with a student no matter what their ages.
Thank you for joining us. This came about after the mother of a student ran off with a married teacher. Can you explain how your bill could avoid something like this?
ASESEMBLYWOMAN KRISTIN OLSEN, INTRODUCED CA SAFE STUDENT ACT (via telephone): Certainly. I introduced Assembly Bill 1861 out here in California. It`s called the California Safe Students Act.
And basically what it says is that if a teacher or a principal or other school employee engages a student in an inappropriate relationship at that same school, then he or she can be convicted of a felony. And if they are convicted, then they will lose his or her public pension.
PINSKY: Assemblywoman Olsen, I want to make sure I understand what this law is. Is this just for high school kids? Or is this for teachers all the way through grad school levels?
OLSEN: No, it is just for high school, middle school, or elementary school, God forbid. But high school and younger.
PINSKY: And there was a case, I think here in California, where the teacher ran away with a student after she had graduated and she came of age and they claim they didn`t have a relationship beforehand, and they claim they`re happy and whatever. But, you know, I don`t think they violated any laws.
Will this law prevent that kind of thing from happening?
OLSEN: Actually, the case was a little bit different. You know, as parents, and I`m a mom of school-aged children. We expect our schools to be safe and positive learning environments and our kids are going to be there to learn.
OLSEN: We don`t expect them to be manipulated and wooed over a period of years.
OLSEN: And to find themselves in a highly inappropriate relationship with a teacher.
The situation that took place at the high school in my district, she actually was still a student. She was a high school senior. Her teacher was a 41-year-old business teacher. And it was discovered after she was 18 that they had a romantic relationship.
There`s an active investigation to determine how old she was when the inappropriate part of the relationship began.
PINSKY: And I`m going to interrupt you and say the inappropriate part meaning, it doesn`t have to include any kind of physical contact, is that right?
OLSEN: Actually, in my bill -- in California law today it`s clearly against the law to have a relationship with a student who`s 17 or younger. And that`s just clear.
OLSEN: My bill would extend that to all high school students regardless of age, because many, if not most high school seniors, are 18. But I would suggest that for a teacher to engage in predatory behavior and woo and manipulate that student into having a romantic relationship is wrong.
PINSKY: I want you to repeat that. That`s the part a lot of people don`t really understand, that that`s a predator. That man, however well- intentioned -- or woman as we`re hearing in this case today -- those are predators. Those are people preying on the people they`re supposed to be maintaining boundaries with.
I`ve got about 30 seconds. I`ll give you last comments.
OLSEN: Yes, that`s exactly right. This student was 14, 15 years old when they first met. Thousands of text messages exchanged back and forth later when she was a little older. And just because nothing sexual or physical was discovered until she was 18 doesn`t mean it was OK.
PINSKY: That`s right. It was grooming behavior.
Thank you, Kristin. I support your efforts.
Ahead, a man reportedly shot his wife and their dogs because the animal relieved itself on the floor. But, first, your calls, comments, that`s coming up next.
PINSKY (voice-over): An elderly man allegedly shoots his dogs to death then his wife all because his dog went to the bathroom on the floor. What made this seemingly normal person fly into a murderous rage?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would never picture him or think he would ever do something like that.
PINSKY: Is there an underlying medical explanation?
But first, I`m taking your calls.
PINSKY: All right. You guys have been sounding of on the story we just did about the former teacher and NFL cheerleader accused of a sexual relationship with an underage student.
Guillermo on facebook writes. "He initiated it. He consented, she consented, both their families consented. The law doesn`t consent. Parents raise kids, not the law, just leave them be."
Wow. I got libertarian on our hands here. All I can tell you is I can tell you we talked about it with Michelle Golland in the last segment that the kids can`t consent. Their brain development isn`t to the point where they can autonomously consent. They perceive consent, but they`re easily manipulated.
Reginald writes on facebook, "it`s more of a teacher/student issue than abuse. Once you`re in the authority position and can use grades or failure to induce sex with students, no matter the age, it should be legal. `Quid Pro Quo.` This for that.
And this is the point. And I say it I think I`m sure I`ve said it before in this program. Big people take care of little people. People, parents, people in positions of authority, our job is to teach boundaries. And it`s precisely the kid, that would think it was OK to violate those boundaries, which if we participate in as people in authority, we will re- traumatize the kids.
The kids are often involved in traumatic re-enactments so that makes sense. That if they had their boundaries violated when they were little kids, they will go out and seek like sexual abuse or physical abuse. They`ll seek those kinds of things from adults. That`s what we do as humans. And when adults participate in that, they`re re-traumatized. The kids are re-enforcing all those horrible things that happen to them.
Linda is in Mississippi. What`s your comment there, Linda?
LINDA, CALLER, MISSISSIPPI: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Linda.
LINDA: When my husband`s grandson was 12, he was staying with us. He killed one of our dogs. He said he wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
LINDA: That scared me.
PINSKY: Yes, it should.
LINDA: And I took him into the sheriff.
LINDA: Since then he`s been in trouble in one form or the other. He`ll be 17 this year. He`s been diagnosed with bipolar. He`s in a group home.
PINSKY: He`s been in a group home? Is that what you said?
LINDA: Yes, he`s in a group home. But I think if I didn`t catch him when I did, he would have killed the person and I still think he will.
PINSKY: Well, Linda, slow your road. You have every reason to be concerned about this young man. Here`s the deal. You know the people that -- the children that kill animals, at 12 you`re still a child. Let`s face it. And by the way, this was a rather big animal he chose to kill. Those are the people that tend to become killers. They don`t appreciate empathy. They can`t appreciate other things and people have agencies or feelings of their own, so it doesn`t mean much to them to kill them.
To Linda, I think there`s more than bipolar going on here. You know, I want to defend all the bipolar out there. This isn`t the behavior of a standard bipolar patient. So, you have every reason to be concerned. Please keep an eye on this young man, OK?
LINDA: We`re trying, but is there -- do you think there`s any help for this?
PINSKY: You know, you`re asking a tough question. I mean, you know, our buddy, Pat Brown, who labels everybody as a psychopath. Psychopathy is something that`s more genetically engrained than not. There`s not good treatment for that. There`s containment.
If it`s what we call Sociopathy which is something of more caused by trauma that has treatment. But time will tell. I mean, if he`s able to have relationships without being manipulative or exploitative that will give you a hint of what you`re dealing with, OK?
LINDA: So, far we can`t have those kinds of relationships.
PINSKY: That`s sad, very sad. Keep an eye on that young man. Thank you for your call.
A Texas hospital has a new employment policy. They`re not going to hire people who are very overweight. Some call it discrimination. I do.
Here`s Amanda in Baylor, Texas. There are companies that refuse to hire smokers. I can see both sides of issues like this. I think the point you`re making is that people that are obese like smokers carry medical risk and liability.
Manny writes. "I agree with this. How can you help people if you can`t help yourself?" I guess that`s in terms of being a hospital employer.
Susan in Vermont. You have a comment on the murder we reported on yesterday. Is that right?
SUSAN, CALLER, VERMONT: Hi, Dr. Drew, yes. I live nearby town to St. John murder had occurred with Melissa Jenkins.
SUSAN: And I was just appalled and deeply saddened and probably you know, when the news broke in and as WCB has reported the incident as it happened and as things were progressing. My true feeling is that I believe they don`t even deserve a trial, you know.
PINSKY: Let`s remind people of what the story was that there was this couple that allegedly went out -- we talked about somebody killing a dog earlier just to see what it felt to kill someone. This couple, we are hearing, said the same thing, that they just killed because want to see what it was like.
Now, we don`t have the details in the case. But I agree with you, Susan. That`s in fact what happened here. I can just imagine the communities are rocked by this. Are they?
SUSAN: Yes, they are. It blows my mind to think of as somebody you thought as a neighbor down the street is putting you in this kind of harm and danger.
PINSKY: You know. Susan, when I say -- sorry to interrupt you. What I said yesterday was you were bringing up this thought I have is, if you feel like you`re in danger ever, Susan, trust your instincts. Trust your gut. Women have great guts and trust it, OK?
PINSKY: I know. I love Vermont. I went to college in New England. I miss it. Enjoy the spring. Thank you for that call.
By the way, aisle still bothered by the facebook we had a few minutes ago, the comments about obesity and people siding with the hospital for not hiring obese people. Take a good look at that. Overweight people get discriminated upon more than almost any other population. And there`s little or no sympathy for it. I mean, you really take a good look at your behavior if you discriminate against people who have a medical issue. Come on, now. I really have a little problem with that. So, I don`t support what that hospital is doing.
Jan in New Hampshire has a comment about yesterday`s story regarding assisted suicide. Go ahead there, Jan.
JAN, CALLER, NEW HAMPSHIRE: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Jan.
JAN: First of all, I do believe in assisted suicide but, I also believe we really need to analyze the situation. If we had listened to the doctor ten years ago, my husband and I, I would be a widower right now. He was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
PINSKY: Let me, just stop you. What you`re talking about is the lymph nodes and distribution of the tumor, that kind of thing. But coming up with -- that`s not saying, oh my God, I have a terminal prognosis. I`m not going to do anything, get me the suicide drip. And listen, if there`s assisted suicide, it will be tightly controlled. There will be very careful criteria for somebody to meet the criteria to be able to be help through an assisted suicide, right?
JAN: Isn`t Arizona one of the states that has --
PINSKY: You know, I think its Montana, Washington, and Oregon. But Oregon`s had it the longest. And most, you know, most people -- so far nobody`s getting killed and people are being, you know, sort of helped through the misery of the dying process to make it dignified and comfortable with him. I thank you for your call, Jan.
Now, I`ve been getting tons of facebook comments, tweets, e-mails and calls from you the viewers. I want to answer all your questions. So, next week we`re going to dedicate an entire show to Dr. Drew on call. That`s right. You can call in, Skype, facebook, tweet, anything. We`re going to take all these modalities. I`ll answer all your questions. That`s next Wednesday and it will be live.
So, next up, we`re going to talk about man who allegedly shoots and kills his wife and family pets after the dog defecates on the floor. As I keep saying though, what are you going to do? You got to shoot the dog if he defecates on the floor. A story you have to see to believe. Stay with us.
PINSKY: Tonight, 76-year-old Michael Stolz remains behind bars charged with a deadly shooting spree that killed his 49-year-old wife, Bernice. His alleged other victims, the couple`s two dogs including the German shepherd mix, who triggered the whole thing by defecating on the floor, how dare he. The governor report and he told the police his wife`s ongoing complaint about the dog`s behavior was the catalyst for his shooting spree. So, how did this turn so deadly?
To discuss this, joining me, Mark Geragos, criminal defense attorney, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, and Jane Velez-Mitchell, obviously our host here on HLN, self-titled show. She`s also the author of "Secrets can be murder."
Jane, set the story up for us, would you?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST, JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is a case where the little things can make you snap. And apparently that`s what happened here. This 76-year-old man who lives in a suburb of Dallas became infuriated because his wife was complaining because their German shepherd mix had pooped inside the house. And he apparently snapped according to cops, grabbed his pistol, shot the dog then proceeded to shoot their second dog, a Rottweiler. At this point, cops say his wife is screaming hysterically and he turns around and shoots her as well and then remains with the dead bodies for three days when the wife`s employer say, oh, she`s not at work and sends cops over to the house. A huge standoff occurs and he finally surrenders. He`s charged with murder. And again, it`s such a small thing. A dog pooping inside the house that cops say led to this basically spree of violence.
PINSKY: Well, Jane, it depends whose house he`s pooping in. I`ve seen Mark`s dogs out of line. I`ve seen him threaten to kill his dogs. I`ve never seen him do anything.
So Mark, I have a question for you.
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Actually, actually the key here is, I don`t think Jane touched on it, it`s because he married a woman who was almost 30 years his junior.
PINSKY: That caught my attention, too.
GERAGOS: That`s something we`ll hear lots about.
PINSKY: Well, at least I look at the guy. I see the picture of him on the screen behind me. Show that picture again that you guys did. So, he doesn`t look well. I mean, he doesn`t look right. I look at that and think, hmm, could he have been bipolar?
And then, as you age, your manias can get a lot worse. Or could this have been -- he`s a diabetic apparently. Could this have been a stroke, thalamic stroke? Again, people are in very bizarre behavior then or could it been a diabetic, what we call it cephalic? Diabetes is metabolic condition. If it goes out of control, elderly people get this thing when they`re out of their head in a diabetic state. Id that the kind of stuff you go towards --
GERAGOS: Look. I don`t know what this guy`s history is, but if his history is that he doesn`t have a history of violence or anything else, and you look for some kind of an explanation for it. Although diminished capacity you generally can`t use, but you can do other things to talk about what caused this and what were the triggers for it. Obviously --
PINSKY: You bring in experts.
GERAGOS: Yes. You bring in your experts. You`re going to have your shrinks that are going to come in and testify --
PINSKY: How dare you.
GERAGOS: -- testify to this, that or the other. Well, you would never do that.
PINSKY: Not yet. But -- you`ve offered a couple of times.
GERAGOS: You`ve never signed up for that duty.
PINSKY: But the point is there are people that can interpret whatever object that can be discovered about this guy.
GERAGOS: Right. But, ultimately, at the end of the day, if, in fact, he is guilty of the shooting, there and he`s 76-years-old, what are you going to do with him at this point? He`s going to be housed somewhere for the rest of his natural life.
PINSKY: Now, Pat Brown, I know you hate -- I`ve learned through my relationship with you that you hate my explanations for people`s behavior. What is your sense of what`s going on here?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Dr. Drew, what you just pointed out is a thing called history. You know my behavioral history. You know the way I think. This man had a long-term behavioral history. We`re going to find he has an issue with power and control and not getting his way. If he doesn`t get his way, he gets bent out of shape about it.
I have four cats in my house. I have three student renters. And one of them texted me the other day and said, look, the cat crapped in front of the refrigerator. I still have four cats and three renters. So, I can go on a shooting spree with my nine millimeter because somebody annoyed me or the cat annoyed me. I don`t have a history of that. And this man, I`m going to guarantee you, has a history of it. It`s just he got to the point in his history where he got fed up. Not snapping but frustrated that he had lost power and control over his dogs and wife, and said that`s enough. I may as well take you all out.
PINSKY: But Jane, I want to go to you. What do you think? So, he has a history of being an irritable controlling guy. He gets older. He has what we call small vasculmascus (ph) disease which means the brain is sort of breaking down as you age because he has diabetes and things like that. This irritable manicky guy becomes a killer. Do we understand that as a defense? Or throw the book at this poor old guy?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen. I don`t think age has anything to do with it. The fact is that intimate partner violence is a huge problem in this country. One of the leading causes of death, for example, a pregnant woman was murdered at the hands of the man who impregnated her. And the fact is that people who live together, they go from lovers to becoming enemies. And resentments build up, to use a little 12-step lingo, Dr. Drew.
And if they don`t deal with these resentments they fester and ultimately, they can explode in violence. These are people who probably shouldn`t have been together and they stuck together for whatever reason and it cost this woman her life.
PINSKY: I think what Jane is referring there to, Mark, was a thinly veiled reference to Scott Peterson.
GERAGOS: Yes, I could have. I got that, Jane, loud and clear. Loud and clear, Jane. Thank you. It wasn`t so -- I don`t know how thin hi veiled that was. I thought, maybe, it was Scott Peterson and I`m also kind of Jane`s view on marriage. I won`t go there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re right on both counts.
PINSKY: Have you got anything to say? Have you learned anything through your years of working with these kinds of cases?
GERAGOS: Yes, I have, actually, that is to try to analyze these things as we do on cable TV. You never get to the truth. So, having lived through these things and watching people and they`ll remain nameless, on other cable channels, analyze something and say things that they think makes sense and then generally having lived through it knowing that there`s no -- no relation to reality, it`s just too tough to do. You can`t know it until you get in to it.
PINSKY: Do you ever want to get back on TV and set the record straight? Do any of your clients ever ask you to do that?
GERAGOS: They do. Yes, all the time. And part of the --
PINSKY: Here`s your chance. Scott Peterson, want to set it straight?
GERAGOS: Is Keith Ablo on this network or sister network? I read one of his works about Scott Peterson. It was so factually incoherent and had so little connection to the truth that you wondered how he wouldn`t have been disciplined by some medical board somewhere.
PINSKY: So, just saying is like they control my producer and there`s a gull and it`s now. Let`s get Keith in here and Mr. Geragos and go at it? I interrupted you. Finish.
GERAGOS: No. And that`s part of the problem. I do the same thing, you do the same thing. We sit here. We analyze. We get a little snippet then we go off it, you know. I make - I guess it makes great TV. But ultimately, does it bear any relation to reality, probably not.
PINSKY: Pat, do you agree with that?
BROWN: Well, if we`re talking about homicidal men and women who clearly are psychopathic, are we saying, Mr. Geragos, you prefer to believe their pathological lying and manipulations rather than the facts of the case?
GERAGOS: Actually, you know Pat, what I`ve found especially with Scott, is I would talk to -- and it`s usually white professional women who have the problem with him. And they would say, what about this? I say, that didn`t happen. And they say. What about this? And I said. It`s really this. They always default, to, well, I had an ex-boyfriend who was just like him. And I can see where he would have done it, too.
BROWN: Come on, now. Scott Peterson is guilty. He`s a total psychopath. Are you going to tell me he`s not a psychopath?
GERAGOS: And like I said, a white professional woman who can`t argue on this point.
BROWN: Of course not.
PINSKY: Mark, you`re a psychopath, too, so am I. Everyone`s a psychopath.
BROWN: If he thinks Scott Peterson isn`t one, I`m going to question that.
PINSKY: Pat, just poking fun, as you know. Thank you, Mark, Pat, and Jane.
Next up, what about wives who kill? Are they different than the husbands who kill? We`re going to talk about that when we get back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Classic case of if I can`t have him, no one else will.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I just fired the gun and this big noise went off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPTAIN KEVIN DEAVER, LEWISVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Did not have a weapon at that point, so the S.W.A.T. officers made entry into the residence and was able to detain him at that point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was a captain from the Lewisville police department in Texas where a man shot and killed two dogs and his wife after one of the dogs defecated on the floor. What are going to do? You have to kill your dogs then, I guess. Criminal defense attorney, Mark Geragos, how would you defend that guy?
GERAGOS: First, I`d learn about what the real facts are. Because who knows what`s being reported. I mean, generally what happens in these cases is the police put out kind of a story, so to speak, and then you get into it, you find out whether it`s true, whether that was it, who knows what actually happened. So it`s too tough to speculate at this point, but if he looks -- in that picture, is that the booking photo?
GERAGOS: Because if that`s the booking photo, then you have a mental defense.
PINSKY: Right, he looks ill. That`s right, medical, whether it`s because he has cephalphty (ph) or bipolar or something. Look. There it is.
GERAGOS: He makes Gary Busey`s photo looks good.
PINSKY: And please ask your mind, people that the conversation we had at the end of the last segment was about you having represented Scott Peterson in case people don`t remember.
GERAGOS: Right. Pat is Pat and Jane have never gotten over that.
PINSKY: Evidently. I want to go to Pat and Jane now.
Let me go to Pat, first. Do we respond differently when the women are murders? For instance, you, Pat, do you go down the psychopath, Pat, every time with women?
BROWN: Have you ever seen me not call a woman who brutally murders her children not a psychopath? I definitely go down that. And you know. I don`t know where Geragos is coming of saying white professional woman. I guess who are black unprofessional who are male or white professional male, I would always think differently? I mean, that`s as racist and sexist as I`ve ever seen.
GERAGOS: I agree with you, Pat, but you think everybody`s a psychopath.
BROWN: People who brutally murder, brutally murder, and have a history of manipulation, pathological lying and all the other psychopathic traits are psychopaths. And that`s why they do some of the things that they do. What are you going to do in this particular case? The two dogs shoot the woman and commit suicide?
GERAGOS: Look, I don`t know what the facts are in that case, Pat.
BROWN: Yes. The man killed the dogs and killed the woman.
PINSKY: One at a time, Pat. One at a time.
GERAGOS: People who are accused of brutal murder, it`s not always as it seems. I mean, you should know better than anybody, there are our battered women. And battered women who kill their partners, their intimate counters because --
PINSKY: They`re not psychopaths.
BROWN: If the woman goes back and kills him, yes, she is.
PINSKY: Sorry, Jane, I have 30 seconds for you. Go ahead.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Women are not only the fairer sex, but we`re also the more peaceful sex. And it`s an aberration when a woman kills. Generally 90 percent of the stories we cover are men killing either other men or women. It becomes news when a woman kills because it happens so rarely.
PINSKY: But, man, when they do, watch out. Men are aggressive generally, I`ll grant you that. Be careful, ladies and gentlemen.
All right. Thank you, Pat, and Jane, and Mark for that spirited conversation.
Now, last night I mentioned it was our show`s one-year anniversary. I did not have time to thank anyone. Everyone, that is. So, I want to take a couple seconds here and just say thank you to my executive producer, Burt Dubrow, as well as both of my amazing technical and production teams, both here, in Los Angeles, and in Atlanta.
And I want to say also that I always get anxious about saying thank you because I want to make sure we hit everybody when we say thank you. So if we didn`t point you out specifically, know I`m grateful and thankful for every one of your contribution to this show.
I`m going to thank my wife. She would have been angrier, absolutely, Mark. Thank you for remembering that. Thank you.
And Susan, I love you. Thank you for putting up with me. And thanks you all for watching. We`ll see you tomorrow.