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Trayvon Martin Case
Aired April 9, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Trayvon Martin, fact or fiction? What to we really know about the case that`s captured America? The Reverend Jesse Jackson is here with his take.
And George Zimmerman speaks publicly for the first time about it. You will not believe what he`s asking.
Plus, police say two white men killed three black men, terrorizing Tulsa`s African-American community.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Thanks for joining us. We`re coming to you live tonight.
When outrage over the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin continues to grip the nation, today, Angela Corey, the special prosecutor appointed by Governor Rick Scott, said the investigation will proceed without a grand jury.
Also racial tensions flare after two white men eventually go on a weekend shooting rampage in African-American neighborhoods. Were there warning signs?
We`re going to talk about the Tulsa shooting later on in the show.
But, first, no grand jury, what does that mean? Is it good news for Zimmerman or does this latest news reveal nothing?
Also, George Zimmerman launches a Web site asking for -- get this -- I told you I was going to tell you what he`s asking for. He`s asking for money. Now, is he worried that this case is going to go to trial? That`s what he`s trying to raise money for?
It`s kind of -- kind of creepy, but what does it mean for the case? For the city of Sanford? For you at home?
Joining me tonight, executive director at Politic365.com, Jeff Johnson; CNN political analyst, Roland Martin; and Trayvon Martin family attorney, Daryl Parks.
Daryl, I go to you first. No grand jury in the Trayvon Martin case. Does that matter? How do you read that?
DARYL PARKS, MARTIN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, I think no one should read anything negative into it. We believed all along that she probably -- Angela Corey, that is -- would do a direct filing in this case. Here taking away from the grand jury really means nothing because as the state attorney, she has the power after receiving all the evidence in the case, both before she was on the case and after, she`s allowed to then come to file a direct file on this case and to charge George Zimmerman, which is what we want.
PINSKY: And, Daryl, how about this Web site? He`s asking for money. It seems like to help raise funds for his potential legal costs, I guess?
Do you have a feeling about what he`s up to there? Does the family have reaction to that? I mean, their son is dead and he`s raising money. Is there a bad feeling about all this?
PARKS: No. We don`t -- I mean, Mr. Zimmerman realizes that he has to have a defense in this case, because he probably will be charged. You may not notice, but I`m also president of the National Bar Association. So we advocate for open courts and for everyone to have their day in court.
I think, you know, the manner in which he`s going about it, that`s his choice. But we want him to have a public trial, a fair trial and put on what he believes the case is. We want the prosecutor to put on a case to defend the life of Trayvon Martin for being shot and killed by Mr. Zimmerman.
PINSKY: Roland, I want to go to you next. Daryl puts the plea out for an open trial, a fair trial. Do you think he`s going to get that?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, of course. I do believe there`s going to be an arrest. And remember, from day one, what the family has been calling for was an arrest for there to be justice. Dr. Drew, this is why we are here at this point. It is because so many people were outraged that there wasn`t an arrest. If the Sanford Police Department or the Seminole County D.A. had actually arrested him, really, we would not have the outrage that we`re actually having right now.
And so, look, folks can say there`s so many people that know about this case, but guess what? According to polling data, there are a lot of folks who don`t know, who have not heard about this. So I think we make these broad assumptions. I do believe that if he is, indeed, charged and it goes to a trial, that you can`t find a jury and that`s when he gets to put on his self-defense. The prosecution, they get to prosecute the case as well.
That`s what the family said from day one. Let`s have that form of justice as opposed to him walking free.
PINSKY: And, Roland, a lot of my African-American friends feel as though, you know, justice for African-Americans is not the same, as for non-African-Americans. Do you think this court, this case, is going to just reconfirm all that? Or is this going to allow us to work this through in a way that has people not feeling quite so put upon?
MARTIN: African-Americans always say, is it justice or just us? And when you think back to Frederick Douglass, the great abolitionist former slave, he always said power concedes nothing without a demand.
When you think back to the Scottsboro boards, when you think about Medgar Evers trial, the 16th Street Baptist Church -- when you think back to all of these different cases, Lenell Geter in Dallas, you look at these individuals who are on death row, all of a sudden they have been exonerated because of DNA. African-Americans have always said we have to deal with this. The (inaudible) of, you know, cases in terms of beating confessions out of Chicago.
So African-Americans have always felt that the justice system really bears down on us in a much different way. And so, that`s why you have people who are protesting.
So, when you see people who are white or others who say, hey, let the system work itself out -- as African-Americans, we don`t have that luxury.
PINSKY: I get that. I`m hearing that. Maybe I`m overly optimistic, but I keep hoping this will help propel things in a positive direction rather than unwind things in a negative.
Jeff, I want to go to you. You marched with students, I guess it was over the weekend. If the control room would help me out with this, I`m going to go to the footage where we -- you marched with students who called themselves the Dream Defenders. They march from Daytona Beach to the Sanford police station, about 40 miles.
Let`s show the audience this footage and have you comment on it. You were actually there. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Racism still exists. Injustice to black community still exists.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s kind of symbolic. It reminds a lot of people of (INAUDIBLE) Montgomery march.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We completely believe in the court system and believe that they`re going to do their job. But in order for that to happen, the first steps have to take place which is an arrest and a charge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jeff, what was the mood like with the students during the march?
JEFF JOHNSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, POLITIC365.COM: Pretty incredible. I mean, to think that these were 40-plus students from all over the state of Florida that decided on a holiday weekend not to go home to spend Easter with their families, not to take advantage of a long weekend, to say, we feel so strongly about this case that we want to bring attention to it in our own way and march from Daytona beach to Sanford, was a pretty incredible opportunity.
And so, the spirit was high. These are young people, some of whom had been activists before and addressed similar cases. And some who are coming to activism for the first time. And so the energy level was high.
But Dr. Drew, what I think it shows is there`s this myth that young people around the country are apathetic and so these are young people that, one, wanted to say that myth is false. But two, I think are very interested in not just looking at the Trayvon case but looking beyond it to say that --
PINSKY: That`s right.
JOHNSON: -- this Trayvon issue is just indicative of what`s happening in communities all over the country, with police departments, what`s happening oftentimes with mismanagement by prosecutors and they don`t want this to ever happen again in the dark.
PINSKY: Roland, you`re shaking your head vigorously. You want to comment on that? Go right ahead.
MARTIN: Yes. Jeff and I, we talk all the time and we`re always texting and e-mailing. Let me tell you something, both of us have been getting hits on our Twitter feeds when it comes to cases out of Austin, cases out of Atlanta, other parts of the country.
It was on fire last Thursday and Friday, even this case in Tulsa that you`ll be talking about a little bit later. National media really wasn`t paying attention. And folks are saying, here`s what`s going on.
What you`re seeing is that this generation is sitting here saying that we have to be like the student non-violent coordinating committee was in the 1960s. That was young people driving that --18, 19, 20 years old. John Lewis, Ella Baker, those kind of folks.
What they`re saying is, you know what, we could have been Trayvon Martin and they`re saying we could have been living in a suburban neighborhood, gated community and still somebody looks at us and makes a judgment.
And so, I do believe that you`re going to see this go forward. This is not going to be a repeat of Jena 6 where there`s a lot of attention, they go away. Young folks are saying we`re sick and tired of this. This new generation, black, Hispanic, white, Asian, are saying we`ve got to be in this thing together.
PINSKY: Yes, I`m surprised when you said they`re apathetic. I`m experiencing them different than apathetic. I`m feeling like there`s a renewal kind of activism.
JOHNSON: No, no, no --
PINSKY: By the way, did you guys see D.L. Hughley`s commentary on "Huffington Post"? If you didn`t, I strongly urge you to read it.
Roland, you saw it.
But, Jeff, I want to ask you one question before you go. You spoke with Angela Corey, the special prosecutor today. What did she say to you?
JOHNSON: Well, we were able to get her on the line with the students and she said, I think, very similar to -- I think what was important was first she said that she was thankful that those students cared enough to be actively supporting Trayvon. But then she went on to talk about the fact that I think like she said publicly, she wanted this case in her hands versus that of a grand jury.
And then she said what I think is very important, and I think very difficult. She said that it is going to take time, and is going to take time for her to put together the strongest case that she can. It`s going to take time for her to be able to deal with this.
So patience is key. And that`s difficult, I think, for a lot of us.
PINSKY: Well, guys, I thank you. Interesting conversation.
Jeff, Daryl, Roland, we appreciate you joining us.
So, up next, what did George Zimmerman really say in that muffled 911 call? Was it a racial slur? We`ll try to break it down.
And I want to remind people, this Wednesday I`m taking your calls live. That`s right. The entire show, Wednesday, anything you want to ask, with sex, relationship, all the stuff you guys like talking about. But any questions you might have. You can ask about my personal life, whatever you want to talk about. One hour of live calls.
And by way, we`ll be taking your calls during the show. If you don`t call ahead of time, we`ll have to take calls as you come in. But you can send questions in. If you want, we`ll line you up.
Stay with us. We`re back after this.
PINSKY: A reminder we`re live tonight.
With so much coverage of the Trayvon Martin case, so much at stake, the need to know the facts are great, right? I mean, people want to know what`s true, what isn`t.
Question here tonight is: has the media reporting been accurate and has it been responsible?
Let`s take a look at fact versus fiction. Joining me from Sanford, Florida, the producer for the "NANCY GRACE" show, Natisha Lance. Also CNN national correspondent, Gary Tuchman, who found himself in a tough spot reporting on the Zimmerman 911 tape, itself. And "Orlando Sentinel" columnist, Beth Kassab.
Beth, do you think our lack of patience as a nation has sort of -- well, I`m not sure if it`s the nation that`s been impatient. I guess it`s those who are reporting that leads to misinformation on all sides?
BETH KASSAB, ORLANDO SENTINEL: Yes, I think it`s a little bit of both. There`s been a lot of rush to judgment in this case. There`s been a lot of knee-jerk reactions and there`s been a lot of misinformation out there. And so, I think people have had to kind of take a look and see where they`re getting their news from.
PINSKY: Well, Beth, you`re right there in the heat of the story. I`m going to run some facts, so to speak, past you. You tell me whether this is myth or truth.
Start out with March 21st. Zimmerman is labeled murder in Congress. Explain that to me. Fact or fiction?
KASSAB: OK. Well, you know, at best, that was premature. OK? We all know George Zimmerman has not been charged with anything yet. And Corrine Brown, a congresswoman here from Florida, stood on the House floor next to a sign that said Trayvon Martin`s murderer is still at large.
And, you know, that simply isn`t the case. We don`t know yet what will happen with George Zimmerman.
PINSKY: All right. Beth, another piece of data. March 26th, Al Sharpton declares Sanford the new Selma.
KASSAB: That`s right. And, you know, probably another overreach there. I think we have to remember what actually happened on that Sunday afternoon in 1965 in Selma, Alabama. There were 600 civil rights marchers that were doused with tear gas and beat with clubs. I think you can say that what`s happened so far in the Trayvon Martin case is unjust, but it`s no Selma.
PINSKY: All right. Another one, March 26th, fake photos of Trayvon are published. What was that all about?
KASSAB: You know, that`s part of this great campaign to smear Trayvon Martin, and we`ve seen that almost since this case started getting a lot of national attention. We`ve seen fake photos emerge of him, photos that have been published on Web sites and news outlets that simply turned out to not be Trayvon at all.
PINSKY: Gary Tuchman, you bravely stepped in the midst of all this in an attempt to figure out what George Zimmerman had actually said in the 911 tape. Let`s look at your first report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It certainly sounds like that word to me, although you just can`t be sure. That sounds even more like the word than using it when it was in with the "F" word before that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So that was where people at that point were rushing to conclude that Zimmerman had said something really awful, a racist slur. Do you remember that moment, Gary?
TUCHMAN: Yes, Dr. Drew. What we very clearly said was, it sounded like it could have been that slur but we couldn`t be sure about it. And then we were able to enhance the audio more two weeks later and it sounded like then it wasn`t the slur at all. We still couldn`t be sure about it.
And you know what, Dr. Drew? If we can enhance it again the third time, we`ll do the story again but news doesn`t come in a tidy box with a bow tie on it. Sometimes, it`s messy, sometimes it`s complicated. We need to be transparent. We were transparent trying to listen to it.
We didn`t backtrack. We advance the story. So, like I said, if we can enhance it further, we`ll do it again.
PINSKY: Let`s take a look at the next version of the 911 tape. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: I don`t want to say what it sounds like this time, what a lot of people are saying it sounds like. Let`s play it a few times so the viewer can have an idea for themselves. And make their own conclusion.
(AUDIO CLIP PLAYS)
TUCHMAN: You can stop. Now, it does sound less like that racial slur last time I acknowledged a possibility it could have been that slur. From listening in this room, and this is state of the art room, it doesn`t sound like that slur anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
TUCHMAN: It sounds like, and we want to leave it up to the viewer, but it sounds like we`re hearing the swear word at first, then the word "cold".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Gary, you`ve been reporting news a long time. Has it become difficult now with the bloggers and social media and cable news organizations rushing to, you know, get ahead of one another? Give us your perspective on all this.
TUCHMAN: Well, I`ll tell you, Dr. Drew, I don`t find it difficult at all. CNN has built up lot of integrity points over the last 32 years of its existence and I feel like I built up those points for the 21 years I`ve been here. And it was years ago I stopped feeling the pressure to be first and to be the fastest. My bosses tell me just to be correct.
And this particular story, our job was to tell you what we think it sounded like. I`m not a judge. I am not a jury. I can`t tell you exactly what it is. That`s what it sounded like the first time.
When we took the wind noise out two weeks later, able to enhance it, that`s what we think the federal investigators are doing now, it sounded like the word cold. But the third time it could be pizza pie, I don`t know for sure. But I can tell you, all we can tell you from our reporting right now transparently, is it no longer sounds like the slur that it sounded like, but we weren`t sure about the first time.
PINSKY: And now, Natisha, I`m going to go down to you. You`re out there in Sanford as "NANCY GRACE`s" producer. What has it been like for you guys covering the story?
NATISHA LANCE, HLN PRODUCER, "NANCY GRACE": Well, I think it has been -- it`s an emotional story. A lot of people are divided on both sides. But Nancy`s take has been about the law and about justice, whatever that may be, on either side.
She has felt all along that the determination should not have been made by law enforcement, by police at that scene, but that it should be made by a jury of George Zimmerman`s peers. And when there`s a dead body that is there on the scene and police show up, that somebody needs to be held accountable for that and that person should be held accountable in the court of law.
PINSKY: Does Nancy feel like justice will ultimately be served?
LANCE: I can`t speak exactly for Nancy, but I think that she feels as if, perhaps, it is getting closer. I think today with the announcement from Angela Corey, not needing to go to the grand jury, may have been a signal, although she is saying that this decision today should not be a contributing factor to her final determination.
PINSKY: Thank you, Natisha.
LANCE: So, I think at this point, we just have to wait and see what happens.
PINSKY: I have to go to break. I`m sorry. We`re running out of time here.
When we come back, the Reverend Jesse Jackson is here with us. Stay with us.
PINSKY: Welcome back.
Tonight, we are privileged to be joined live by the Reverend Jesse Jackson, who is keeping a very close eye on the situation in Sanford, Florida.
Reverend Jackson, a recent poll from "The Daily Beast" finds that 80 percent of African-Americans believe Trayvon Martin`s death was racially motivated compared to only 35 percent of whites who feel the same way. Why is there this profound gap in our perceptions?
REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: You know, to add some context, there have been 30 African-Americans killed by police and security guards this year, 29 men and one woman. Sixteen since Trayvon have been killed this year.
There`s the context of this. When Emmitt Till who killed him and three weeks, those who killed him were set free because they could not positively identify Emmitt Till`s body. There`s a context of this thing that makes blacks be very wary of the fact that justice seems to leave us unprotected.
PINSKY: Reverend Jackson, I have a question for you, and this may seem rather vague, but I think I -- I think you`ll get what I`m getting at here is: we`ve been struggling with these issues in this country for a long time, and I think we`re moving forward. I don`t think we`re really moving backwards. We`re still contending with the same old stuff.
But why do you think we`re still here? I mean, is there some overall answer to that question that we can kind of take this opportunity to really examine?
JACKSON: You know, we had this redemptive moment when President Barack was elected. The whole world said something great is happening in America.
And here comes this wave of anti-President Barack Obama-mania -- a meanness that we`ve never known before. Are you an American? The birther issue. Are you a Christian? The religious issue. You are stupid, you`re a liar. This whole -- this unequivocal marginalization of President Obama.
Now this toxic waste is kind of raining down like a kind of poison rain. So we see the sense that you have the case of Stephon Watts here in Chicago, autistic kid killed. You`ve got a Trayvon in every town. I talked to folks from Oklahoma just tonight.
And so, I hope we would -- what president Barack could do rather quickly is to revive the Civil Rights Commission on human rights. That`s the first thing. The second, we need to have a strong active justice role in this for the intervention, give people a sense that something is happening.
I think the fact that Zimmerman is still walking the street is driving this agenda, that he is -- that what we know is he felt suspicious, he profiled, the objection of the dispatcher. He pursued him, he killed him, and he walked free. That`s a lot to see and a lot to digest.
PINSKY: Right. Right. I agree. I think that`s why it`s so important to keep this conversation alive.
I`ve got about 30 seconds, Reverend Jackson. Now, you`ve seen so many what you`ve called moments of change. Is there any case that would be comparable to what this is for us today?
JACKSON: Well, it is. I mean, the moment is, here`s a kid that`s killed who represents so many other children. The movement would be to remove this law (INAUDIBLE). That`s the movement. Revive the ban on assault weapons. That`s the movement.
To commit ourselves as a nation to stop so much violence. We`ve lost 6,000 troops in Iraq in less than 10 years, but 30,000 a year at home are killed. We must stop the killing. Commit ourselves to that.
PINSKY: Reverend Jackson, I`ve got to go to break. I`m sorry. I want to thank you for joining us.
Back with your questions and my answers after this quick break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Police say two White men in Tulsa killed three African-Americans and terrorized others in a shooting spree. Were Blacks specifically targeted? If so, why? And if not, what motivated these murders? We`ll take a look at how race, possible revenge, and Facebook figured into it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Reminder that this is a live on-call segment, and you guys have had a lot to say about the Tulsa shooting case and Trayvon Martin, so let`s get right to it. We`ll start off with a call here. Shelley in Texas. Go ahead, Shelley.
SHELLEY, TEXAS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Shelley.
SHELLEY: I was watching your show last week about racial profiling and the discussion just made me sick, because we`re so busy ante upping the situation for minorities. We`re leaving a lot of White people behind in our endeavors. Just because I`m White does not mean I grew up privileged, and it does not mean my life was any easier.
PINSKY: Let me go into this a little bit. Did you have a tough life?
SHELLEY: Well, yes. I did.
PINSKY: Would it have been tougher if you had to worry about people being afraid of you or cops coming after you? Did you have that kind of thing happen to you?
SHELLEY: Well, we had it close enough to our neighborhoods. I had to protect my children and teach my children how to be safe.
PINSKY: So, did you have to have the kind of talk with your kids that we`re hearing most African-Americans have with their kids? About, you know, don`t run and don`t wear hoodies? You know what I mean?
SHELLEY: Well, I had to teach my son, who was a very thin, tall, White boy, you know, not to look in the eyes, not to, you know, be careful how he walked, be careful how he talked. If somebody insulted him, not to argue.
PINSKY: So, what is your overall -- what do you take away from this conversation we`re having?
SHELLEY: It just makes me sick because I just feel like White people are now being subjected to we`ve all got a hardship against a minority. And I don`t believe that`s necessarily true.
PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. And I think that`s something that I think -- don`t you think it`s worthwhile, though, we each examine whether that`s true?
PINSKY: I`m with you.
SHELLEY: Most definitely.
PINSKY: All right, my dear. Thank you for that call.
Vanessa is on Facebook, and she writes, "Why is it that when a Black person gets killed by a White person, it becomes national news, but when White people get killed every day by Black people and you never hear about it?"
That seems like a polemic comment, meaning, somebody tried to incite a fight. I think what we also don`t hear about is when a Black person get arrested quickly for an allegation that turns out not to be true which is really sort of where this whole thing turns.
Facebook had this to say about the two suspects in the Tulsa shootings being held on $9 million bail says, "It`s ridiculous. There should be no bail. There should be absolutely no chance that the monsters get out on bail. Are you kidding me?"
I know. We`re going to get into this story. I agree with you on that. We`re going to get into that story in a few minutes. These guys went out like hunting for people. It`s bizarre. Wait you hear this story. It`s coming up after the on-call segment.
I got Kortnie, I guess, it is on Facebook. She seems to agree. She says, "I`m just glad they`re off the streets. I think the $9 million bail was a joke. If they had means, they most likely would have been remanded. It`s really saddening to see all this hate."
And that`s exactly what we want to get into is, is that thing a hate crime and what makes a hate crime? Does somebody get turned into that kind of monster? We`ll get into it, but Jon in California is on the phone first. What`s up there, Jon?
JON, CALIFORNIA: Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Jon.
JON: With the two people that killed the two people in Oklahoma and also wounded a bunch of different people, that`s a heinous crime. So, what`s behind the pathology of something like that? What makes people do something -- not that it excuses what they did anyway.
PINSKY: What makes somebody become a violent killer?
PINSKY: Well, you know, you see the fights I have with Pat Brown every couple days, which is, she goes, they`re all psychopaths to begin with, they`re born that way, it`s in their DNA. I believe it`s much more nuance and much more complicated. In this case, what we`re going to tell you about in a few minutes is this guy`s father was killed.
I don`t even know the details of this story yet, but this is somebody -- you don`t get turned into this. You got to have had a bit of this going, in my opinion, to begin with, and it becomes inflamed. So, I mean, if you`re going to really get rid of these kinds of heinous hates, it`s got to start a lot earlier than before somebody flares into violence.
I mean, he had a lot of stuff going on that caused aggression. And let`s be fair. When people become homicidal or suicidal, we look at those as psychiatric problems. We put people like that in psychiatric hospitals before they kill and low and behold, when we treat them, all these impulses can go away completely, and yet, if we don`t get to them on time, it becomes a legal matter.
And then, Pat Brown tells us all that they`re actually psychopaths, anyway. All right. That`s why I take issue with that. I`ve treated lots of people like that beforehand. When they become -- when they go back into their body and of their right mind again, it`s very different. There are varying reasons why people go, let`s call it what it is, crazy like that.
They can be manic, they can be on drugs, they can just have a severe depressive episode. There`s all kinds of reasons. People, it`s so funny doing this show, you know, when I worked in psychiatric hospital for all those years, we worked on reasons and getting people back into being normal parts of society.
People have no patience with that, I`ve noticed, during this show. Ever since I`ve reported on Casey Anthony, everybody wants everyone to be a horrible criminal and nothing more. And that`s it. They`re just horrible, evil -- people are more nuanced than that, guys. I mean, I know you got little patience for this one. Somebody acts (ph).
I certainly have no patience for what we`re going to hear about in the next segment, but, the fact is people are more nuanced. They`re not all bad and all good. It`s a more complicated problem. We got Melanie in Ontario, Canada. What`s going on there, Melanie?
MELANIE, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I love your show.
PINSKY: Thank you.
MELANIE: I just wanted to ask a question. My fiance and I both have histories of mental problems and addiction, both personally and in our family.
PINSKY: Are you in recovery now?
MELANIE: Well, I am.
MELANIE: And he is working on it.
PINSKY: He`s trying. All right. Got it.
MELANIE: So, my question is, if we`re both well when we decide to start a family, what are the chances that our kids may have these sorts of problems? Like, how much of this is genetic?
PINSKY: Well, you know, I`m really more of an expert in the addiction side of things. And by the way, how`s the recovering community up there in Canada? Is it a rich community? Is it hard to find?
MELANIE: It depends on where you are.
MELANIE: The cities are great. Smaller cities are a bit tougher.
PINSKY: And it sounds like you`re in a smaller -- judging by your sense of desperation. So, let me answer your question. The answer to your question is, there are many different mental health issues that have genetic tendencies. Things like -- familiar predilections we call that. Things like bipolar disorder tends to run in families.
PINSKY: But addiction is highly predictable and that it`s about 50 percent per child. Certain ethnic genetic sub grouping seems a little higher, but in general, it`s about 50 percent per child whether one or both parents have the condition. That`s been my experience. Almost without exception.
So, in other words, you both have the gene of addiction. Let`s say you have four children. The probability is it`s going to be three with, one without, one with, three with, or two and two. That makes sense. About 50 percent per child. But you could end up, you know, all four without, could end up all four with.
It`s just a probability -- it`s a 50/50 probability equation. By the way, I got to say this really quickly is that genes don`t mean destiny. Genes mean predisposition. Raise them in that healthy environment with you in your recovery and maybe that gene will never express itself.
Really quickly, Jesse in California. You got something quick for me?
JESSE, CALIFORNIA: Yes, what do you think about the Tim Tebow service drawing 15,000 people?
PINSKY: I didn`t see it. I heard about it. I`m fascinated. You know, Reverend Tebow. I -- what do you think?
JESSE: I love it. I think it`s really good. I think it`s nice how he`s open to the public about his religion, and it`s just sad how many people criticize him for it.
PINSKY: Fair enough. He doesn`t seem to -- I think the really good news from my perspective, it doesn`t bother him that people are critical. You know what I mean? He lives his life. And this is his religious belief and God bless him for standing up and living the life that he thinks he should live. All right. Thank you for your calls, guys.
And next up, a young man allegedly goes on a shooting spree. We`ve been talking a little about this during this on-call segment.
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PINSKY (voice-over): Do his recent Facebook post tell us why or give us any hint what was going to happen?
On Wednesday, that is the day after tomorrow -- see, we just had an on-call segment. Imagine that for the entire hour. That`s what we`re going to do on Wednesday. I`m going to take your calls, Facebook, Skypes. We`re going to use everything we`ve got. You can ask me anything ,sex, relationships, medical issues, personal issues of mine, yours. Stay with us. We`ll be right back.
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DEON TUCKER, SHOOTING SURVIVOR: He asked me for an address that I felt like was down the street. That`s what I told him. It`s down the street. They started shooting.
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PINSKY (on-camera): Welcome back. Friday in Tulsa, Oklahoma, two Caucasian men allegedly went on a shooting spree, targeting African- Americans. There they are. Three people were killed, two wounded. Authorities are working to determine whether the shootings were racially motivated.
It begs the question, has the Trayvon Martin case inflamed racial tensions in America? So, joining me to discuss this case, criminal defense attorney and author of online newsletter, SpeaktoMark.com, Mark Eiglarsh, Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author of "Only the Truth," and Tulsa police captain, Jonathan Brooks.
Captain Brooks, did you -- well, first of all, what happened, and did hate play a role in these killings?
CAPT. JONATHAN BROOKS, TULSA POLICE: Well, what happened, Dr. Drew, is that we had an individual go out and commit a crime against society. He went out and shot. Well, actually, in this case, we had two that went out and needlessly shot five people, killing three in Tulsa here.
So, what we`re doing is trying to determine the why part. We will gather the facts of the case, and we`ll present that. Ultimately, we`ll let the district attorney or Tulsa County district attorney or the U.S. attorney decide on the direction that the prosecution will proceed.
PINSKY: Were these two men friends? And as I look at their pictures, I wonder if, you know, one was -- if their motivations were different.
BROOKS: No. They`re definitely friends, and they`re even roommates. So, -- it`s hard right now to speculate on their -- on what their motivation was.
PINSKY: Here`s a Tulsa City councilman talking about the case and whether he believes this is, in fact, a hate crime. Take a look.
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JACK HENDERSON, TULSA CITY COUNCILMAN: I think I know pretty much a hate crime when I see it. You have an individual who`s White, male, going to a Black -- predominantly Black community, shoot at five Black people and with the other evidence of the online stuff and some of the things that were said leads me to believe that that was totally a hate crime.
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PINSKY: Mark, hate crime, yes or no?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Personally, I believe, yes, and even if they fall short of proving it legally, a guy who writes as the younger one, the 19-year-old did, using the "N" word, using an expletive before the "N" word, having his father involved in a shooting allegedly by an African-American, and then, I learned that he wasn`t held accountable.
Apparently, he was arrested, but then, he was acquitted by a jury or they didn`t go forward. So, he has a lot of anger directed specifically at that specific race. I absolutely believe it was racially motivated. However, Drew, let me just say this. He`s charged with first-degree murder.
That`s the much more serious crime. They`re going to be able to get life and/or potentially death out of that charge. The hate crime, if they don`t have enough, that`s OK.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting. What Mark is referencing here is something that Jake England put on his Facebook. Now, I want to warn viewers, the wording here is graphic. Here it is, Thursday 4:04 p.m., England wrote, quote, "Today is two years that my dad has been gone, shot by a" -- there you go, blank, blank. "It`s hard not to go off between that and Sheran. I`m gone in my head."
Pat, he`s referring to other losses he`s had. How do you, as a profiler, put this guy together?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Dr. Drew, I think the bigger problem here is looking at the issue of decompensating, and you know what that word is. Many people might not.
PINSKY: Wait, hold on. I do know what that word is, Pat, and I`m stunned to hear you use it. I`m stunned.
BROWN: I have a few big words in my vocabulary but not many.
PINSKY: Let me define what it is for people.
BROWN: Go ahead.
PINSKY: It means that somebody gets into a state -- a simple way of saying it is they go crazy. When they decompensate that whatever they`re sort of glued together, whatever psychological or psychiatric issues that are pre-existing decompensate, meaning, they fall apart. Just the way your heart can decompensate -- go ahead, Pat.
BROWN: I`m going to give you my definition of it. I believe decompensating is when the control you had over your life, you start losing bits and pieces of it which creates great anger and frustration that you no longer can have what you want. We see it with serial killers. They often lose their job, then they go kill somebody.
Their wife leaves them, then they go kill somebody. Mass murderers, they lost their job, their women, they`ve been bullied at school, whatever they complaint is, and they go off and they take care of a bunch of people. If we look back at the Ft. Hood shooting, though, people said it was, you know, religiously motivated. I thought it was a midlife crisis.
He wasn`t getting the respect he wanted. He was going to be sent off to Afghanistan. He was angry. He had no women in his life. He was decompensating at midlife. We see it as teenagers, we see a midlife, serial killers, just on an ongoing basis. So, I look at this guy, and I say, here`s his situation. He`s not doing very well in life.
His dad gets shot, and then, his girlfriend supposedly kills herself. And so, he`s lost two people in his life, and he`s very, very angry, and he`s lost all control. Now, is he racist? Well, clearly, he sounded racist when he made his commentary, and obviously, targeted Black people as opposed to a variety of other races.
So, one could say that, but is it just that he`s angry at the world, decompensating, wants to go out and hate the world, pay the world back? Maybe this is his way of causing lots of trouble. You know, hey, the Trayvon Martin thing was pissing everybody off, let me go out there and make a few more people angry. Ha, ha. So, it`s very hard to tell. We do know what his committed is a horrible crime.
PINSKY: It becomes -- the Trayvon thing becomes an excuse. Here are some other Facebook posts that Jake England put up which gives, perhaps, a little more incite. He says, quote, "It just might be time to call it quits." Again, I think, that`s a suicidal gesture, which again is a sign of decompensation. Pat, I agree with you.
Also, "I hate to say it like that, but I`m done if something doesn`t happen tonight, be ready for another funeral later. Again, I think he`s talking about himself. I want to go back to Captain Brooks. Captain Brooks, is this sort of material part of what you`re calling together to build your case?
BROOKS: Absolutely. We want everybody to understand that, you know, we`re taking everything into account here. This is evidence for us. So, that`s why I really can`t talk about it a whole lot. Of course, you guys can. But, you know, we have to comb through this, and we`ll present it as evidence.
I mean, we`ve heard the cries of the community that they`re scared, and we hear what you`re talking about as well. But you got to understand, we have a mission. And that mission is to protect our citizens. So, whether it`s a hate crime, we listen to that. We see it right now as this individual committed a crime against society.
And we, and our mission was to capture that person that did this. And within just a few hours, we accomplished our mission. Now, we want to take and sit back and go through this stuff. And also, you know, take a minute and mourn with these families, you know, because the real tragedy here is that three lives were lost.
So, that`s where we`re at. But it`s going to take a while to go through all this because there`s this and a lot more.
PINSKY: Yes. I`m sure. Thank you, captain. And finally, Mark, I`ve got about 30 seconds here. Decompensation is what I see, if I got my hands on them, now it`s a legal issue, right? Now, it`s in your hands, the defense lawyers.
EIGLARSH: Yes. But you know, putting on my prosecutor`s hat, which I prefer to do at this point, my former prosecutor`s hat, I don`t care why they did it. They did it. They admitted it, apparently. I read that one of them confessed to shooting three, another one confessed to shooting two.
You don`t have to prove motive. You don`t have to. It could have been Trayvon motivated or could have just been because of his father. It doesn`t matter. Prosecutors don`t have to speculate.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark. Got to take a break.
So, can someone be turned into someone that`s likely to do these kinds of horrible things or is this something already in people? We`re going to get into that.
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SYNITA BOWERS, SUSPECT`S NEIGHBOR: He`s just a nice young man. I can`t even imagine him in this. Now, drugs, yes, but killing, I can`t imagine it. Not Jake.
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PINSKY: And because we are live tonight, I`m still joined by Mark Eiglarsh and Pat Brown. That the Twitter is sort of going off here live. I`m @Dr.Drew. Let me read you a couple real quick.
This is -- oh my goodness, this is always the risk. Back to the Jeff Johnson who is in the first block, letting us know, "We have a generation of intelligent activists who are willing to fight." I thought that was a very good point. And finally, this is Dakota Kirkbride (ph), "Oh, my God! The Tulsa hate crime shooting involving five people, three dead, on right now."
And Pat and Mark, we`re trying to make sense of that exact case. And I got to tell you, one, Mark, I`m like you. On one hand, I don`t care what`s motivating. I don`t care whether I could have gotten my hands on them. What they did is so heinous. It`s over. It`s game over for those guys. I`m sorry to say. You agree with me on that, yes, Mark?
EIGLARSH: No question. They should never get out of prison assuming they did what`s being alleged, and based on their confession, it appears that they --
PINSKY: Got it. OK. And now, Pat, you want these guys to be psychopaths with varying and sort of inciting influences that may be causing decompensation. Is it that simple these guys really have this in them or is it a lifetime of stress and loss and misery and depression that makes somebody finally do something that`s unforgivable?
BROWN: I think most people who have all of those things are not murderers. They could do other things. Drink themselves to death, you know, do drugs, curl up in a corner, you know, the very unhappy people. They don`t go out, take a gun, and cold-bloodedly shoot people down. I think there is a long-term personality disorder that then ends up there when everything else goes wrong.
And, you know, there`s a reason mortgage companies hide in places where you can`t find them. I mean, no matter who you`re angry at, a lot of the people you can`t get back at so you`ll get back at anybody in society, which is why you just pick a target easy.
PINSKY: You mentioned long-term personality disorder. That`s different than psychopathy. And again, you know, Casey Anthony, maybe a psychopath, maybe born that way. Longtime personality disorder, that`s trauma and horrible --
BROWN: I was referring to psychopathy, but starting at a young age and building over time where they do not feel successful in their lives where psychopathy does increase and it becomes engrained in them. But it doesn`t mean they`re going to necessarily be violent. It means that they may be used people, they may lie a lot, they may manipulate.
BROWN: But they may not be murderers. But if they get that ideations or they want to get back at society in the most brutal way, there you go.
PINSKY: Amazingly, pat, you`re speaking my language again for the first time a little while. I want to go -- having said that, I`m going to go to Mark.
BROWN: Kind of scary, isn`t it?
PINSKY: Mark, you know, I`ve got about 40 seconds, and this is something that I think is a cornerstone of so much that goes wrong in this world was the inability to have empathy for anybody. You can`t be a racist if you have empathy. You can`t be a murderer if you have empathy. Isn`t that at the core of all of this?
EIGLARSH: Yes. And now, let`s look at them. I have love for everyone. I don`t have to love someone`s actions. I don`t love what these guys did, and they have to pay for it. And they know that they`re going to.
PINSKY: Mark, I hate what these guys did. I hate that we have to have these conversations about Trayvon Martin weeks later. I hate that --
EIGLARSH: Don`t hate.
PINSKY: I hate -- well, it`s hard --
EIGLARSH: Just love, Drew.
PINSKY: It`s hard not to. It is, Mark. I`m sorry. It`s hard not to when people do horrible things.
EIGLARSH: That`s right.
PINSKY: Pat, Mark, thank you for joining this conversation. No doubt we will keep this going and alive.
And reminder, on Wednesday, all calls, the whole hour, just you guys with me. Thanks for watching. See you next time.