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NANCY GRACE
George Zimmerman in Hiding; Zimmerman`s Attorneys Withdraw From the Case
Aired April 10, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. As of tonight, no arrest. Protests across the country. More claims the 17-year-old actually punched Zimmerman, slamming Zimmerman`s head into the sidewalk. Stunning reports police wanted Zimmerman arrested that night, but somebody higher up said no.
Stunning surveillance video zeros in on Zimmerman`s head after the shooting. Does the enhanced video reveal a gash to the back of Zimmerman`s head? But with a broken nose, where`s the bloody shirt? Zimmerman walks into that cop department under arrest as a suspect, but within hours, he walks free. Why? Screams for help unmistakable on a 911 call, but whose?
After the special prosecutor announces the case will not go to a grand jury for charges, bombshell tonight. Is an arrest set to go down in the next hours? And has George Zimmerman fled the state? Tonight, you hear the evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH VOLUNTEER: This guy looks like he`s up to no good.
911 OPERATOR: Are you following him?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK, we don`t need to you do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You targeted him! You profiled him! You killed him!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first person that swung, as far as we can tell, was Trayvon Martin. The first physical aggressor (INAUDIBLE) most of the forensics support the fact that that was Trayvon Martin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the mortician said about Trayvon Martin. Other than the bullet hole, I didn`t find any injuries on Trayvon Martin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He took someone else`s life in order to save his.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George was out of breath. He was barely conscious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George Zimmerman hunted my son like an animal.
GRACE: When you have a dead body, a shooting...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just heard a loud gunshot (INAUDIBLE) and then a scream (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: ... you make an arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) why everyone`s totally outraged by this case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want justice!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I didn`t know George Zimmerman, I`d be right out there, too. But I do know George.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: TheRealGeorgeZimmerman.com is soliciting money for his legal defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As of now, we are withdrawing as counsel for Mr. Zimmerman. We`ve lost contact with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any moment now, we could get a decision.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... charges in a justifiable use of deadly force case. We do a thorough investigation. We make that decision ourselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We move closer to a decision on whether charges will be filed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will not tell you where George Zimmerman is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can stop looking in Florida. Look much further away than that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tensions rising...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Sanford, Florida, a 17-year-old heads home to his dad`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. Is an arrest set to go down in the next hours? And has the alleged shooter, George Zimmerman, fled the state?
We are live and taking your calls. Straight down to Sanford, Florida. After the attorney -- the state`s attorney says she will not send the case to the grand jury -- translation, there will be no murder one charge.
Out to you, Steve Helling, writer, "People" magazine. Helling, where is Zimmerman?
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: We don`t know where Zimmerman is, but we know he`s far, far away from where I`m standing right now. He`s not in Sanford. He`s not even in Florida, according to his attorneys.
GRACE: OK, Steve, you`re writing for "People" magazine, right?
HELLING: Yes, I am.
GRACE: When I put my children to bed at night, I say, Once upon a time far, far away. Translation, anywhere, nowhere, 10 miles...
HELLING: Anywhere.
GRACE: ... 10,000 miles. Is he in the state? What are your sources telling you? Has he fled the state?
HELLING: He is not in Florida, Nancy. He is out of the state. Whether that means that he`s in Georgia or California, we don`t know. But he`s not in Florida. That`s one thing we know for sure.
GRACE: OK, Steve Helling, if you don`t know where he is, how do you know he`s out of the state?
HELLING: Well, that`s what -- not only his attorneys have been saying that, but sources close to him said that he went somewhere where he could be away from, you know, any sort of bounties on his head or anything like that.
What we know is that everybody who`s close to him, everybody who he loves, knows that he`s not here in Florida. And so that just begs the question, where could he be? Anywhere, but just not here.
GRACE: OK. Take a listen to what his lawyers, his ex-lawyers, had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will not tell you where George Zimmerman is because I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve lost contact with him at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can stop looking in Florida. Look much further away than that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just been the last couple of days that we lost contact.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For those of who are waiting here only in the event that he`s going to show up and that`s why you`re here, slip on out because that`s not happening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not going to flee the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will not tell you where George Zimmerman is because I don`t know. But for those who are engaged in the late (ph) Easter egg hunt looking for him, you can stop looking in Florida. Look much further away than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`ve got news for you, gentlemen, this ain`t no Easter egg hunt. Easter is over.
Out to you, Dave Mattingly, CNN correspondent. What do you know?
DAVE MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, just exactly that. They were -- his attorneys, former attorneys, were able to narrow it down today, not in Florida but somewhere in the United States, leaving 49 other states for people to guess about where George Zimmerman might be.
But that press conference today was extraordinary because it was aimed at one person and one person only, and that was George Zimmerman, his attorneys saying that they have not been able to see him. They have not been able to hear from him now. And now not only is he out of sight and out of touch, but he also seems to be out of their control.
He was reaching out to the national media, offering conversations that were off the record. He was calling the special prosecutor`s office without his attorneys` knowledge. He was setting up his own Web site without his attorneys` knowledge.
With all of that, they say they haven`t heard from him since Sunday, when the last communication was with a text message. Since then, they`ve seen him doing all these things on their own, and they just threw up their hands and said, We can`t represent you if you`re going to be doing this.
But they did leave the door open. They spoke to the cameras for quite a long time today, and most of the time, they still sounded like they were defending George Zimmerman. They were attacking what they called some of the misconceptions about this case. They were talking about the evidence that they haven`t seen in this case yet.
They were talking about how they were going to defend him in a court of law. They are still sounding very much like two people who want to defend George Zimmerman legally, but they want to hear from him that he`s going to do what he`s supposed to do, or what these defense attorneys want him to do.
GRACE: With me, CNN correspondent David Mattingly, joining me there at the police department in Sanford, Florida. David Mattingly, I`ve got a problem with just about every single thing you just said, in the sense that, David Mattingly, why are they, his lawyers, or his former lawyers, spouting off about why they`re not representing him anymore, that he said this, that he did that? That is all within the attorney-client privilege purview.
Why are they divulging all of this in a press conference, David Mattingly?
MATTINGLY: What they were saying -- they say they weren`t revealing anything that was discussed that would be affected by attorney-client privilege. And I asked them directly, Are you perhaps affecting how a jury might view him in the future if this case does go to court and does go before a jury?
And they said, no, because they believe that the facts in this case are what`s going to speak loudest in the courtroom. But again, they were speaking directly to George Zimmerman today when they were saying, We can`t go any further until he calls us, and we have some ground rules here.
GRACE: David Mattingly, CNN correspondent, how did they say they would represent him in a court of law if this thing goes to trial?
MATTINGLY: Well, first of all, he`s got to call them and make some sort of a formal arrangement that, yes, they will be representing him, and yes, he will listen to what they have to say.
But they went on for quite a bit in this press conference today talking about the facts as they know them so far and the facts that have come out from the 911 tapes.
They say that George Zimmerman was the one who was physically attacked that night, leading to that fatal altercation in which he ended up -- George Zimmerman ended up pulling his gun and shooting Trayvon Martin.
So you can hear the beginnings of how they might be representing him, saying that it was not George Zimmerman who initiated that physical altercation.
GRACE: You know, David Mattingly, joining us at the police department, Sanford, Florida, I`ve heard various stories, various versions from Zimmerman`s camp about what happened. What is -- what`s these lawyers` story? What do they say happened?
MATTINGLY: Well, they are going by what they say they heard on the 911 tapes, and what many of us also heard on the 911 tapes. They`re trying to put it in their perspective, where they see -- they hear George Zimmerman responding -- when the 911 operator said, You don`t need to be following him, they hear George Zimmerman saying, OK.
They then say, according to what George Zimmerman has said, that he was then on his way back to the car when he was confronted and attacked physically by Trayvon Martin. That is the story that they were pushing today, and that is the beginning of a defense that we would probably hear in court if there are charges filed in this case.
GRACE: You know, one thing I want to find out -- Natisha Lance, our producer there at the police department -- if you go along with that story -- let`s follow it through. Natisha, how far was the shooting from Zimmerman`s car? Does Zimmerman`s story coincide with where that car was parked?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That we don`t know, Nancy. I don`t know exactly if he was near Zimmerman`s car. But what we have been told by the attorneys for Trayvon Martin`s parents is that he was just steps away from where Trayvon Martin`s father`s fiancee lived.
And Nancy, I just want to point to you we just released a press release from the state attorney`s office. She is saying that within the next 72 hours, there is going to be an announcement in the Trayvon Martin case. Within the next 72 hours, there will be three hours` notification that is given to the media. But in 72 hours, we should be getting word from the state attorney`s office about what is going to take place with Trayvon Martin`s case.
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad. Ellie, it`s my understanding that all of this with Zimmerman leaving the jurisdiction, fleeing the state of Florida -- or so we`ve been told, all right? I don`t know. For all I know, he could be bunked up, you know, at Disney right, you know, down the street.
But long story short, isn`t it true the state`s attorney tried to meet with him? Because I find it very unusual, if you`re about to indict somebody that you`re going to meet with them?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, what the attorneys said today, what Zimmerman`s attorneys said today, is that they were trying -- - the attorneys, that is, were trying to arrange a meeting with the state prosecutor, the special prosecutor in this case, but that Zimmerman made contact with her on his own.
GRACE: OK. Out to Daryl Parks joining us. He is the attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. With me, Trayvon Martin`s former coach, Carter Eave (ph), and speaking for George Zimmerman, friend and neighbor Frank Taaffe, who has recently spoken with Zimmerman.
Weigh in, Daryl Parks. What do you make of the fact that the prosecutor says this is not going to a grand jury? Right there -- you know the law as well as I do. In Florida, you`ve got to go to a grand a jury for a murder one charge. So no matter what happens, if there`s an arrest and a charge, it`s not going to be murder one, Daryl Parks.
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR MARTIN FAMILY: Well, we have always said that we wanted a homicide charge in this case, and clearly, we believe that she`s going in that direction. First-degree murder, you`re dead right. You have to go to the grand jury to get first-degree murder.
But in this case, he can be charged with manslaughter or second-degree murder, and we believe it in our heart of hearts that they are going to charge him with either one of those charges.
GRACE: All right, well, what would you say to an involuntary, where you can get probation in a lot of jurisdictions for that?
PARKS: We don`t think that`s going to happen here. We think there`s a manslaughter charge here. There`s a minor involved in this particular case. and that`s going to aggravate the situation...
GRACE: Well, why don`t you think there`s a murder one, Parks?
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND AND NEIGHBOR OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Minor? He`s 17. He`s an adult.
GRACE: Excuse me, Taaffe. Don`t make me cut your mike again, sir. I don`t want to.
Back to you, Parks. Parks, you know under the law that intent can be formed in the flash of an eye, in the twinkling of an eye. So in the time it takes to pull a gun and yank the trigger, that`s time for intent. So why are you willing to let go of a murder one charge?
PARKS: Well, I`m not willing to let it go. I think, clearly, from the evidence that she has right now, she could charge right now with manslaughter. She may choose to still go to the grand jury to up the charge.
GRACE: Not what she said.
PARKS: That`s up to her discretion based on the evidence.
GRACE: All right. OK, Taaffe, jump in.
TAAFFE: Thank you, Nancy. I missed you. I`m glad to be back.
Nancy, I spoke with George, and what`s compelling of all this is the police report. You shared with me on the phone to stick to the narrative. The officer that was on the scene -- if everyone would just take two minutes out and get a copy of it and read it, there are three very critical lines.
In it, he states that -- the officer states, not George, the officer - - that he was within close contact with Mr. Zimmerman that night. It doesn`t mean he was afar. It was close contact, where he observed the bloody nose, the bloody back of his head and the wet...
GRACE: Oh, I`m glad...
TAAFFE: ... pants on his back...
GRACE: ... you said that, Taaffe, because I`m looking at the enhanced video, and if there was a bloody nose -- show it, Liz, the enhanced video - - I see a perfectly clean...
TAAFFE: His jacket was zipped up. Thank you. I want to address that. His jacket was zipped up.
GRACE: No, his jacket is not zipped up...
TAAFFE: I`m glad you brought that up.
GRACE: ... when he walks into the station.
TAAFFE: Right.
GRACE: Liz, show...
TAAFFE: They patted him down.
GRACE: ... me the video of him walking in the station. His shirt is clean.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are live tonight and taking your calls. What I don`t understand is the thinking behind the state`s attorney. She says this will not go to a grand jury, and under Florida law, a grand jury is the only body that can indict for murder one. So if there is an arrest and a charge, it can only be a manslaughter, at best.
With me, Daryl Parks, attorney for Martin`s family, and Frank Taaffe, friend and neighbor of George Zimmerman, along with the rest of our panel.
OK, Taaffe, you went on and on...
TAAFFE: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: ... to tell me something very important is in the police report. Let me just get you to tell me in a nutshell.
TAAFFE: OK.
GRACE: And let me -- whoa! Liz, give me the video in full. I want to see the T-shirt. There. There`s the video you were just showing, that you just cut off of him walking -- yes, OK, back it up.
TAAFFE: Nancy -- Nancy...
GRACE: All right, what`s so important...
TAAFFE: Nancy (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: ... in this police report?
TAAFFE: Nancy, when he left his vehicle to continue his surveillance of Trayvon, he got out of the car...
GRACE: Whoa! There it goes...
TAAFFE: ... and zipped up his jacket -- he zipped up his jacket because it was "F-ing cold" that night, according to what your CNN producer said.
GRACE: Look, look, look, look, look, look! Right there! There`s no blood on his shirt!
TAAFFE: It was zipped up.
GRACE: You just said he had -- it`s unzipped!
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: Nancy, when they patted him down, they have to look inside his coat. They don`t pat you down with your coat zipped up. That`s procedure.
GRACE: The shirt`s not bloody.
TAAFFE: It`s on the outside of his jacket. It was zipped up. It wouldn`t be on the inside.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still believe that he was acting in self-defense that night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe my son was defending himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the gun went off...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a .9-millimeter gun. Trayvon Martin had a bag of Skittles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve lost contact with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dealing with counseling now for post-traumatic...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Ramona, Alabama. What`s your question, Ramona?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If Zimmerman was hurt so badly by Trayvon, why wasn`t he sent to the hospital?
GRACE: Why was he not sent to the hospital, Frank Taaffe?
TAAFFE: The report, the police report, clearly states that the Sanford Fire Department administered first aid to George at the scene of the crime before he was taken into custody and brought down to the station.
That is the job of the Sanford Fire Department. It`s called "care, custody and control." They took care of him, he was taken into custody, and then the Sanford police maintained their control of him.
GRACE: Let`s go back to Daryl Parks, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. He is also taking your calls. Mr. Parks, what do you make of the fact that Zimmerman has fled the jurisdiction, he is no longer in the state of Florida?
PARKS: Well, you know, I would say I`m strongly concerned. But I will tell you that when we had our meeting with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, they told us specifically they knew where he was. So I`m assuming that they have maintained that control and know the whereabouts of George Zimmerman.
GRACE: OK. And when was that?
PARKS: That would have been the day of the big rally in Sanford, the first big rally in Sanford, Nancy.
GRACE: And when was that, a week ago?
PARKS: About two -- a little over two weeks ago. A little over two weeks ago.
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Mr. Parks -- put Parks up. Daryl Parks, a lot can happen in two weeks. Do you have any idea where he is?
PARKS: Well, Nancy, if the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, who`s involved in this investigation, who tells us two-and-a-half weeks ago that they know his whereabouts...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: All right, but his own lawyers don`t know, all right?
PARKS: Well, I mean, they`re not the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. They`re just some lawyers who say they were retained. So they don`t know.
GRACE: OK. Mr. Parks, again, on the state`s attorney saying this will not go to a grand jury -- so Trayvon Martin`s family is OK with a lesser charge that is not murder one?
PARKS: I`m not saying we`re OK with it. And let me say this here. I think as the facts come out in this here, there may be even some perceived intent. Think about what we know about the 911 tapes. He was following a guy. He said he looked suspicious. He said, These guys always get away with it.
So there is some mens rea here that`s being formed. It`s quite possible that she could choose to do an up charge once we get into this case. But right now, we`re OK with manslaughter, but there`s a possibility it could be up charged if the evidence is there in this case...
GRACE: Mr. Parks, have you seen the autopsy report yet?
PARKS: I have not.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George Zimmerman, the man who shot a teenager --
CRAIG SONNER, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FORMER ATTORNEY: We`ve lost contact with him.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George Zimmerman, he`s launched his own Web site to break his silence on the shooting which he calls a life-altering event.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And my immediate reaction is that sounds like a young man.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Asking for money --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He also asked for donations to help cover his living expenses and legal fees.
SONNER: We are withdrawing as counsel for Mr. Zimmerman. He has not returned phone calls or text messages or e-mails.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He claimed the teenager bashed his head and broke his nose.
TRACY MARTIN, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FATHER: George Zimmerman made the decision to --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are live in Sanford, Florida, and taking your calls. Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, New York. Holly Hughes, defense attorney, Atlanta. Ken Padowitz, former Florida homicide prosecutor, joining me out of that jurisdiction.
First of all, Ken Padowitz, it`s your jurisdiction. It is not going to a grand jury, there is no murder one charge. What do you make of Zimmerman fleeing the jurisdiction and of his lawyers` press conference that went on and on and on? I found it to be very revealing.
KEN PADOWITZ, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, it was certainly revealing that the lawyers might have been out to lunch on the day that they taught ethics at the law school. I mean, they threw their client not only under the bus but they had the bus back over him two or three times. I mean, they placed their client in a bad light. They made him look like he was mentally unstable, and they basically indicated that he may have a credibility issue, that he has posttraumatic stress disorder, that he may be a flight risk. So these lawyers did a very big disservice to their former client.
GRACE: Hey, don`t get me wrong, Padowitz. I`m not on his side, I`m not on anybody`s side. I want to know what happened, but I know this. I knew this in law school. You do not divulge, A, that you canned your client or, B, that your client fired you, nothing, nothing, nothing at all can be said about what goes on between --
PADOWITZ: Absolutely right. I mean I`ve never seen --
GRACE: I was stunned.
Liz, pull up the sound where the lawyers are talking about how they`re worried about his mental and emotional state right now.
What about it, Holly Hughes?
HOLLY HUGHES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I agree with Attorney Padowitz. You do not put your client out there on front street like that. They called him mentally unstable. They`re giving diagnoses and none of them are mental health experts.
GRACE: Hold on. I`ve got the sound. Let`s play, Liz.
HUGHES: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAL UHRIG, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FORMER ATTORNEY: This has been a terribly corrosive process. George Zimmerman in our opinion and from information made available to us is not doing well emotionally, probably suffering from posttraumatic stress syndrome. We understand from others that he may have lost a lot of weight. George can`t get in a car and drive down to some office center to go in and see the psychologist. George can`t go down to the 7-Eleven and buy a Diet Coke. There`s a bounty out on his head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To you, Sanchez. Why would the state`s attorney -- I`m not saying she`s wrong or right and that jurisdiction is entirely appropriate to write up what many jurisdictions call an accusation as opposed to going to a grand jury of 20 to 40 people. The state`s attorney has the power to get a piece of notebook paper and write down the charge, file it in the clerk`s office and, boom, you`re charged with homicide.
But what do you make of her decision? What do you make of the fact, Sanchez, that Zimmerman has pled the state?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: First of all, regarding her decision, I think she`s not going to the grand jury because she`s afraid that if she goes before the grand jury and the general public, because that`s who sits on the grand jury, is going to have some serious questions about the case. So to circumvent that problem --
GRACE: Put him back up. Put him back up.
SANCHEZ: She`s going to make the decision herself. And she`s going to ride out a manslaughter charge and say --
GRACE: Because, Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: -- this is what you`re being charged with.
GRACE: Sanchez, a million times you have whined to me that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. You can get a grand jury to do anything you want.
SANCHEZ: Maybe. But she --
GRACE: But tonight, tonight you say she`s afraid of a grand jury.
SANCHEZ: I think she is because --
GRACE: All right. You can`t have your cake and eat it, too, Sanchez, so just pick which way the wind is blowing you tonight.
SANCHEZ: Well, I want this case to go before a grand jury. I want the general public to hear the case and I want them to issue a decision whether or not there`s probable cause to bring charges against Zimmerman. I don`t want her --
GRACE: I don`t think she is afraid after grand jury.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I don`t want her -- I don`t want her in the secrecy of her office writing down manslaughter, criminal negligent, homicide. That`s very unfair, Nancy.
GRACE: You know what, you`re making my chest hurt because usually you say you don`t want the secrecy of a grand jury. But tonight when there is no grand jury, you don`t want the secrecy of her, what, office? All right. OK. Let`s go to the lines.
SANCHEZ: I don`t know which is worse.
GRACE: Aha. Aha. I knew you`d find a way to spin it.
Let`s see. Let`s go to Rio in South Carolina. Hi, Rio, what`s your question?
RIO, CALLER FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. My question is, since that George is on the lam right now, he could be in any state, South Carolina, Nebraska, anywhere. My question is, what can the public do to stop this man and bring him to justice? Because he`s pretty much just getting away with murder in my opinion?
GRACE: Right now I truly believe that this state`s attorney, Angela Corey, is going to do the right thing. I think that there is going to be a charge. I can tell you right now, Rio in South Carolina, it`s not going to be murder one. I know that from knowing the laws of the state in Florida. She`s not going to a grand jury. There`ll be no murder one charge.
That leaves us with two things. What are they, Ellie? What charges are we looking at? Voluntary and involuntary. Second-degree murder?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, right. Right, also, second degree. Yes. That`s what I was going to throw out there, too. So we don`t know -- she`s not given any sort of indication of what the charge might be if she does, in fact, decide to charge George Zimmerman.
GRACE: OK, Sheryl McCollum, you`re the director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, all you do is analyze crime scenes. The forensics in this case which nobody is talking about --
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE INVESTIGATIVE RESEARCH INSTITUTE, POLYGRAPH ANALYSIS EXPERT: That`s right.
GRACE: -- are going to determine whether there`s going to be a charge because we`ve heard several stories -- and I`m going to go back to you, Taaffee, so don`t just jump in and start talking on top of McCollum.
Put Taaffe up.
We`ve heard several stories about what happened. Now I can`t attribute all those stories to Zimmerman because people in his camp are telling different stories. But if the story is, Cheryl, that he was following Trayvon Martin, backed off and Martin came and attacked him and they were grappling and the gun went off, that sounds like an accident. If it`s self-defense under that scenario, you`re going to have gunshot residue.
MCCOLLUM: Correct.
GRACE: You may even have stifling burn marks around the bullet hole, the wound -- the entrance wound. You`re going to be able to look at the trajectory path of the bullet. Did it go up?
MCCOLLUM: Absolutely.
GRACE: Did it go down? From left to right, right to left.
MCCOLLUM: Yes.
GRACE: You can tell all sorts of things by forensics alone. I spoke to the mortuary owner, the funeral homeowner. He prepared Trayvon Martin`s body for funeral and there were no marks. There were no bruises. There were no scrapes on his hands. How can that happen if he says Martin decked him, why isn`t there anything on his hand?
MCCOLLUM: Nancy --
GRACE: What about it, Cheryl? What are we looking for?
MCCOLLUM: Nancy, forensics are key. I will tell you the blood that should be on Mr. Zimmerman should be Mr. Martin`s. Forget his nose. If you shot somebody at close range while they`re on top of you, the blowback, you should have Mr. Martin`s blood on his jacket. They should have taken his jacket. They did not.
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND AND NEIGHBOR OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: They did.
MCCOLLUM: They said they didn`t. They said they didn`t have it. And here is the other thing, Nancy, the gunshot residue if Mr. Martin was in the rain is being washed away, it`s short-lived evidence. A lot of the evidence that we could have had has gone away and just like your last caller, here`s what people need to do. They need to wait for the science to come through. The trajectory, whether the entrance was above or below - -
GRACE: Right there. Did you see that? Were you looking at your monitor? Did you see that? All right, Taaffe, why are you saying they took his jacket?
TAAFFE: Nancy, I`m in -- I`m in the camp of due process and jurisprudence. Here is the police report. Let`s talk.
GRACE: Don`t wave that to me. I`ve got it right here, too. Do you waving a police report does not mean anything to me.
TAAFFE: OK.
MCCOLLUM: Hey, Nancy --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Make your point, Taaffe.
TAAFFE: I`m in the camp of due process.
GRACE: Yes, and?
TAAFFE: Narrative, the narrative of the officer on the scene clearly states he was in close contact with George Zimmerman. George also wanted me to share with you that he was compliant with that dispatcher on 911. Compliant. He did not refuse it.
GRACE: OK. I appreciate that. My question to you is you just told me they took his jacket but this says they did not take his jacket.
TAAFFE: Of course they did when they were at the station house.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCOLLUM: Mr. Taaffe, one more thing. Mr. Martin was facedown. They`ve got to do a re-enactment and tell us how he became facedown.
TAAFFE: I can answer that.
GRACE: OK. Answer it, Taaffe.
MCCOLLUM: Sir, you were not there.
GRACE: Let`s hear what Taaffe has to say. Go ahead, Frank.
TAAFFE: When Trayvon was pounding George`s head into the concrete --
MCCOLLUM: Allegedly.
TAAFFE: -- which became the lethal weapon in this case, because everybody always said he just had some Skittles and some Arizona iced tea --
GRACE: Please make your point, sir.
TAAFFE: The concrete, became the lethal weapon. At that point when he shot Mr. Martin at close range, he went to his side. When you are shot and you`re gasping for air, you go to your side and then you fall over forward. You don`t lay on your back. You don`t go straight back. You lay on your side and you`re has gasping for air, and then you fall forward with your last exhale of breath. That explains why he was facedown in the grass when the officers arrive.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Is this what Zimmerman told you? Did Zimmerman tell you that -- Cheryl, please. Did Zimmerman tell you this, Taaffe?
TAAFFE: No, this is what I gathered from the police information.
GRACE: Taaffe, you keep acting like you`ve talked to Zimmerman and then I find out you`re getting all your information from the "Orlando Sentinel."
TAAFFE: I talked to him --
GRACE: God bless him.
TAAFFE: I talked -- well, thank you.
GRACE: All right. Here we go, everybody. A quick break. As we go to break, everyone, our family album. Showing your photos of our Virginia friends. Keiningham family, 4-year-old Stella, 2-year-old Mash, proud mommy Erin and daddy Charles, Brother and sister also love horseback riding.
Share your photos with us, iReport Family Album, HLNTV.com/nancygrace then click on Nancy`s Family Album.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A big week in the investigation into the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
MARTIN: We are not getting any answers.
SONNER: We are withdrawing as counsel for Mr. Zimmerman.
UHRIG: This has been a terribly corrosive process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Right now George Zimmerman out of the state of Florida. This is as his attorneys indicate that they dumped their client. How do I know he didn`t dump them? This as the state`s attorney says that a decision will be made within the next 72 hours.
I want to go out to Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner, forensic pathologist.
Dr. Dupree, thank you for being with us. Doctor, what will the trajectory path or gunshot residue prove, if anything, in this case?
DR. MICHELLE DUPREE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It will determine the position on both parties at the time of the shots. It doesn`t necessarily mean that it was up or down. It depends upon the position of the bodies at that time. The gunshot residue is a little more tricky. It`s going to depend -- you were talking about the blowback earlier. And that`s going to depend on the clothing that Trayvon was wearing as much as what Zimmerman were wearing.
The plan is also going to depend on where the shot was to the body. There may not be that much blood coming out at that point in time.
GRACE: I want to go back to David Mattingly. If a decision is going down in the next 72 hours, David, what precautions do you believe will be put in place if there are charges?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we`ve heard from the special prosecutor`s office because of these security concerns that they have, they are going to only give us a few hours` notice when they decide to have their press conference to announce what they plan to do with this case.
And as far as George Zimmerman goes, if there are charges against him and if he is supposed to turn himself in, he can do so anywhere in the state of Florida. It doesn`t have to be in Orlando where the news media will be watching for him. It doesn`t have to be here at Sanford where the news media is going to watching for him. He can slip in just about anywhere in any jurisdiction and get this process going.
So a lot of the security on the front end is just going to be by not keeping a lot of people in the dark. So presumably when Zimmerman finally has secured some identifiable representation here, whether it`s the attorneys he had today or whether it`s somebody else going forward, we will find out what they will choose to do to keep their client safe.
GRACE: To Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, joining us out of New York. Dr. Janet, weigh in.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, you know, speaking of the tensions, hopefully I think with information cooler heads can prevail and he will be arrested so that evidence can be out and that will keep people simmered down. Because what we don`t want is a bunch of people heard and justifying the truth.
GRACE: Well, you know, I appreciate that, Dr. Janet Taylor. I don`t want people angry and hurt. Frankly I don`t care if a lot of people get mad. What I want is the right thing.
To Carter Eve, Trayvon Martin`s former coach. Carter Eve, what do you make of this story that -- hello, sir. Thank you for being with me.
CARTER EVE, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FORMER COACH: Thank you. Thank you.
GRACE: what do you make of this story that Trayvon Martin circles back and went after Zimmerman, this after reportedly he`s on the phone with his girlfriend going, I`m scared, there`s some guy following me. If somebody was following me, I would circle back and pull the tail of the tiger, I`m getting home, shutting the door and locking it. That`s just me.
EVE: I don`t -- I don`t think Trayvon would turn back. Just being a coach and coaching him in little league football, even when we have situations where kids get into scuffles on the field, Trayvon is not the type that`s going to -- once you tell him to do something, he`ll do it. If Trayvon was nervous, Trayvon was trying to get home. That was his intent after he got from the store and got what he wanted, it was raining, he was trying to get home. It was dark.
I mean, anybody walking at night by their self, your instinct tells you always you want to try to get to where you`re trying to go quick. And someone is following you, you`re going to get nervous.
GRACE: Carter Eve, something just said really got to me, what you said about coaching him in little league, and I think what people are tending to forget is that these are two lives we`re talking about, Martin`s and Zimmerman`s. When you said little league, I`m trying to get my little boy in little league right now, trying to get my girl in soccer, and I think people are forgetting this was a little boy. They went to little league, not a little boy anymore. He was practically grown, but I just feel like we`re forgetting who these people are.
EVE: Exactly. Exactly, Nancy. And, I mean, like I said, he was still a little boy, Nancy. I mean, this was a kid who worked the concession stand. I mean, you would usually find grown-ups working the concession stand. He still was a little boy. He was working the concession stand helping young kids out. I mean, kid could be short, he`ll give them the little candy. I mean, it was no problem for him.
I mean, he always stayed in a kid`s place. He never felt like young kids who say, oh, I`m 17, I`m grown. No, he always stayed in a kids place. He never put himself as an adult. And I mean, just to know that this happened is a tragic -- it`s a tragic story. And, you know, I know Trayvon. I coached Trayvon. And Trayvon had no mean bones in his body. I`m sorry, they can paint the picture they want to paint. Trayvon had no mean bones in his body.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Have you ever seen the hit series "Raising Hope" on FOX? I`m popping up on the season finale, part one. It`s tonight at 9:30 p.m. and I want to send a special thank you to all of the cast and crew
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jimmy Chance was enjoying his fame, but eventually he became old news and his high from being a celebrity came crashing down harder than a contestant on "Dancing with the Stars" who was voted off way too early.
Virginia Slims Chance, named by a desperate mother in a futile attempt to get a free carton of cigarettes. A girl of simple tastes, little things made her happy. A snowman, a gerbil named Martha. Learning to spell S words. But in 2008, a string of murders made her life very complicated.
MARTHA PLIMPTON, "VIRGINIA CHANCE: I was immediately inquisical of this mystery. I watch a lot of "CSI", "SBU", "NCIS." If a show has got letters in it, I am so there.
GARRETT DILLAHUNT, "BURT CHANCE": Hey.
PLIMPTON: What?
DILLAHUNT: Have you seen my sunglasses?
GRACE: I`m walking and talking at Howdy`s Market in the heart ofNatesville. A friendly place, where one out of every two customers shop for groceries while riding on rascals. But April 9th, 2008, there was a very different kind of rascal at Howdy`s. A rascal known as a murder.
DILLAHUNT: I was quite concerned. I have really good skin, and my biggest fears is someone will cut me up and make a Burt suit. Pardon me. Bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. Bark. Bark, bark, bark.
LUCAS NEFF, "JIMMY CHANCE": Excuse me. You guys issue from the waist up, right? Because I can`t find my good pants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. I didn`t see that part.
Let`s stop and remember Army First Lieutenant Jonathan Brostrom, 24, Honolulu, killed Afghanistan. Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Ranger Tab. University of Hawaii grad. Loved body building, golf, surfing. Leaves behind parents Mary Jo and David, a retired army colonel, brother Blake, serving Afghanistan. Son, Jason.
Jonathan Brostrom, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Our prayers tonight with friend, Grayson. Recovering from surgery. Here he is with wonderful nurse, Scott.
Grayson, we are pulling for you.
Everyone, for more on the Trayvon Martin shooting case, watch "DR. DREW" coming up next. We`ll be live on the scene tomorrow night awaiting an arrest. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
