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Possible Break in Etan Patz Case; Trayvon's Parents Won't Meet Zimmerman; Tony Robbins on Inspiration

Aired April 19, 2012 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Tonight, could George Zimmerman be let out of jail? My exclusive with the man who defended Michael Jackson, O.J. Simpson and Scott Peterson. I'll ask him about tomorrow's big development in the Trayvon Martin case.

And one of the most shocking missing child mysteries ever. A 6- year-old boy vanished without a trace in the middle of New York City. Now after more than 30 years, a dramatic new twist.

Also "Keeping America Great" while top motivator Tony Robbins is very bullish on this country.

TONY ROBBINS, LIFE AND BUSINESS STRATEGIST: There's lots of people out there that are creating the future for us. We're known for that. We just need to empower more of them.

MORGAN: Our revealing interview with the man who's advised everybody from CEOs, Oprah, and President Clinton.

And Vanessa Williams, from beauty queen to Broadway, TV star and a bit of scandal in between.

VANESSA WILLIAMS, ACTRESS: Everyone makes mistakes. Mine was on a grand scale.

MORGAN: Tonight, Vanessa Williams opens up.

You're quite a naughty girl, aren't you, Vanessa?

WILLIAMS: Naughty out of hurdle, maybe, yes. Not (INAUDIBLE).

Plus "Only in America," welcome to the jungle. My defense of rock 'n' roll wild man Axl Rose.


Good evening. Two big stories tonight. First breaking news in the case of a New York City 6-year-old boy who left for school one morning and never came home. Now after more than 30 years, police say there's a new individual connected to the case. More on that dramatic twist in a moment.

Also the latest in the shooting of Trayvon Martin. George Zimmerman could go free on bail tomorrow after a hearing. We can also report tonight that Zimmerman has asked to meet privately with Trayvon Martin's parents but they so far declined. I'll talk to the Martin family's attorney and trial lawyer Mark Geragos.

Plus if this man doesn't know what's keeping America great, well, nobody does. Tony Robbins, the man who shares his secrets for success with celebrities and world leaders.


MORGAN: Bill Clinton called you the night before, 1998, and said, Tony, they may be impeaching me in the morning. What should I do?

ROBBINS: If I were you, I'd be doing what you know is right and nothing less in that process.


MORGAN: We begin with our first "Big Story." New developments in the Etan Patz case. On May 25th, 1979, the 6-year-old Etan walked two blocks from his New York City home to his school bus stop. It was the first time his parents has let him make the trip alone. They never saw him again.

Now almost 33 years later, police and FBI investigators are scouring a nearby basement looking for human remains or other clues. And authorities say a new individual has been identified in connection with the case, a carpenter who worked in the building.

Joining me now is Linda Fairstein, she's the former chief of the sex crimes unit in the Manhattan D.A.'s Office. She knows this case better than most.

Linda, what a dramatic development this has been. Tell me what you know about what has happened here.

LINDA FAIRSTEIN, FORMER HEAD OF NYC SEX CRIME UNIT: I know that in 2010, Cyrus Vance, the district attorney in Manhattan, reopened the case. I know he's been working with the NYPD, Commissioner Kelly's team and the FBI. Leads have developed over the years. There has been a major suspect before now.

This development today, not sure how they got back to this carpenter. I assume that they talked to him in the very, very intensive, thorough investigation that began in 1979. Hours after Etan disappeared. But this has a stunning development of a promising new lead.

MORGAN: I mean what's extraordinary is this guy is now 75. He's not the main suspect that people have believed may have committed this crime. That is somebody else who's coming out of prison very soon for other offenses. But this guy has been out there all this time and they believe he may be connected. He was with Etan the day before he died and he is suspected of being involved in some incident with Etan in the basement of this block of flats which they're now trailing with dozens and dozens of their operatives. This is an extraordinary development after so long, isn't it?

FAIRSTEIN: Completely extraordinary. This child walked two blocks, as you said, and was always assumed when the investigation began that the disappearance was not an abduction into a car, taken away, but that it happened somewhere along that path. And the likelihood that it was someone the child knew was always greater than that it was a stranger.

So the fact that this story today suggests that Etan was with this carpenter the day before, had been in the same basement, had been given a dollar by the man, might have made it far easier for this person of interest to have lured the child off the street.

MORGAN: I mean if it turns out that this is the answer to what happened and, you know, they have sent sniffer dogs down to the basement and they believe the dogs have scented some kind of human remains, we don't know any more than that at this stage, but clearly, potentially, very, very dramatic.

I mean this could have been pretty scandalous, isn't it, that this man, if he is the guy that did this, has been allowed to roam the streets for 33 years?

FAIRSTEIN: Scandalous, yes. But also I mean, I know what the investigation was at the time. My colleagues participated in it. I'm sure that the police were in this basement. They were in everywhere in that two-block stretch. Keep in mind 1979 the state of forensic investigation is entirely different than what your viewers are used to now.

DNA was not even a forensic tool, was not even used for the first time in this city before 1986, anywhere in law enforcement. So whether he had an alibi at the time, whether they talked to him, which I'm assuming they did, whether they looked in that basement. It was such a short amount of property covered and it was such an important police investigation.

I mean the country stopped and certainly everybody in New York was focused on the fact that this child never made it to his bus stop from -- on that first day he left home.

MORGAN: I mean it became a worldwide story. Etan's face appeared on milk cartons, seems the first missing child to do that. And many laws in America were changed as a direct result of his disappearance. It was a story that moved everybody. You can only begin to imagine how his family must be feeling today.

FAIRSTEIN: I -- they have been on such a roller coaster. There have been no leads, there have been leads. There was this other person of interest, Jose Ramos, who was the subject of a very intense federal investigation. He's in jail in Pennsylvania. He coincidentally had been a friend of a woman who took care of Etan so it made sense that he might have been the acquaintance who abducted Etan and he's also got psychiatric problems. So whether or not that was a real lead or a prison fabrication, we don't know. And suddenly it's shifted back to this man. Obviously we're going to a lot -- learn a lot more in the next couple of days about whether the initial police investigation did include this person.

MORGAN: But it's not going to bring Etan back obviously.

FAIRSTEIN: Nothing will.

MORGAN: I just hope for his family's sake that they can somehow get some kind of closure through at least finding out what happened to him.

For now, Linda Fairstein, thank you very much.

FAIRSTEIN: Thank you, Piers.

MORGAN: Now let's turn to our other "Big Story" of the night, the Trayvon Martin case. After a week behind bars, could George Zimmerman be granted bail tomorrow? And what about Zimmerman's request for a meeting with Trayvon's parents.

Joining me now is Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump.

Benjamin Crump, welcome back. A very interesting day tomorrow. How does the family feel about the potential for George Zimmerman being released on bail tomorrow?

BEN CRUMP, TRAYVON MARTIN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, we feel that some crimes are nonbondable offense and second-degree murder is one of these, Piers. However, every citizen who's accused of a crime based on our United States Constitution has a right to a bond hearing. And so the judge will listen to both sides and make his decision on whether bond is appropriate at this time. And the parents of Trayvon are willing to accept the rule of law.

MORGAN: We know from Mark O'Mara, George Zimmerman's new attorney, that an offer was made to Trayvon's parents on behalf of George Zimmerman for him to meet with Trayvon's parents. That offer so far has been declined.

Tell me why, and also tell me is it a possibility this meeting could happen in the future do you think?

CRUMP: Well, Piers, let me first say that Sybrina Fulton is a Christian woman. And her and Tracy are good people. So it may happen, but we don't think it's appropriate at this time. In fact we think Zimmerman's request is very self-serving at this time, 50 days later, the day before he's going to have a bond hearing.

It's a situation where you think about it, he never once apologized on his Web site, on any of the voicemails that he left with his friends and never expressed any remorse during police interviews the several times that they interviewed him. So we question his motive at this time saying he wants to apologize. MORGAN: It will be the first time tomorrow that Trayvon's parents have come face to face with George Zimmerman. How are they feeling about that?

CRUMP: Well, obviously it's going to be very emotional being in the same room with the killer of your child. And it's one of those situations when you asked about them, if he's released tomorrow, they didn't demand and protest an arrest just so George Zimmerman would give his fingerprints and his mug shot to the police.

We had every expectation that an arrest would precipitate that he would be brought to justice and held accountable for killing their son. We stand on a legal and public safety and moral grounds in solidifying our position that George Zimmerman should be held without bail until these matters are concluded.

But again, it's the judge's decision. We have confidence in the special prosecutor and the family, as they have said all along, that they believe in the justice system and they'll accept the rule of law. But it is going to be a very emotional day.

MORGAN: It certainly will. And it will be a fascinating day to see what happens. For now, Benjamin Crump, thank you very much.

CRUMP: Thank you, Piers.

MORGAN: For more on the big story, I want to bring in a man who's defended everyone, from Michael Jackson to O.J. Simpson, Scott Peterson, trial lawyer Mark Geragos.

Mark, it's going to be a fascinating day tomorrow because the judge has changed. We know this. The new judge has a reputation of being pretty tough, pretty used to high-profile cases. What do you think that means for the possibility of George Zimmerman being released on bail?

MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In some ways, this is the perfect judge, if you're a defense lawyer, to have make this decision. Nobody is going to say that he's bending over backwards for the defense. He's not a soft touch for the defense by all accounts. I don't know him and haven't appeared in front of him.

But by all accounts if he makes a decision under what they call this Arthur hearing, and he says, well, I think that I'm going to grant bail and I'm going to put restrictions on it, whether it's electronic monitoring or house arrest or anything else, I don't think he would be second guessed. I think people would say, well, he's following the law or is doing what he thinks is right.

MORGAN: Is it likely, do you think, all things considered he'll be released?

GERAGOS: I -- all things considered, I think it is likely. I mean, you know, the factors they consider a lot of times in these kind of cases are, is he a flight risk. He's clearly not a flight risk. And is he a threat to the community? I, you know, there's the argument that the community is more of a threat to him.

MORGAN: Well, I'm just asking, I mean, does that come into play as a factor in such a high-profile case, that not that he's a threat to other people but that his own life might be actually at risk and he's better off actually being inside, not on bail?

GERAGOS: It's -- I've never seen a published case that argues that. I'm sure there is. But I've had judges tell me that. Look, he's better off in jail, he's safer in jail. He's the subject of all kinds of hatred and vitriol being thrown his way, so that may be the case that somebody thinks in the back of their mind, what's the point of putting this guy out there if so many people want to take a shot at him.

MORGAN: In their effort to keep him inside, can we expect new evidence to emerge by the prosecution tomorrow?

GERAGOS: Yes. I would -- I would almost bet that the prosecution will put out more than they have in that probable cause affidavit. Because that affidavit by all accounts is very thin. And I think in order to do one of these presumption evidence hearings that they have, these Arthur hearings, they're going to have to put out more than they've got in that -- in that affidavit, because that affidavit I don't think would meet the burden alone. That's not to say they don't have more, but I think they're going to show it tomorrow.

MORGAN: Based on everything you've seen so far, has George Zimmerman been overcharged, do you think? Is it more difficult to get a conviction under the second-degree murder charge he's on?

GERAGOS: It's a great question, because I think, no. I think -- in fact I always wondered when they were prosecuting Conrad Murray here in L.A. why they didn't charge him with second-degree murder. It -- number one, it gives a defendant an incentive to take a manslaughter because you're facing life. And if they work out a deal where you're offered a manslaughter, you're going to fixed that term of years and you may take that. There's at least that incentive.

And number two, a prosecutor would charge a murder because they'll say, look, you want to put forward your defense, you want to do the "Stand Your Ground," that's fine, but that's your defense. We're saying it's murder based on these facts. You have to defend it.

MORGAN: It's a fascinating case, isn't it?

GERAGOS: It really is. And I think it's got an intersection of gun rights here in America, it's got an intersection of defense and whether you have to retreat. I mean there's so many levels. And it's got race and everything else. That's why it's resonating with the public.

MORGAN: It certainly has been a fascinating day tomorrow. For now, Mark Geragos, thank you very much.

GERAGOS: Thank you, Piers. MORGAN: Coming up, "Keeping America Great" with a man who taught Oprah to walk on hot coals. He can do anything this guy, Tony Robbins.


MORGAN: Tonight keeping America great, an inspirational superstar, Tony Robbins, author, entrepreneurial, humanitarian, the list goes on and on. He's helped CEOs and citizens from around the world. On TV you cam see in "Breakthrough with Tony Robbins" and "Life Class: both on Oprah Winfrey's OWN network. And Tony Robbins joins me now.

Tony, Welcome.

ROBBINS: Thank you. Good to be here.

MORGAN: I've been looking at the list of people that you have helped. Never mind all the multinational corporations. Bill Clinton, Princess Diana, Mikhail Gorbachev, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, Quincy Jones. I mean these are like the icons of my lifetime. All touched by the inspirational hand of Tony Robbins.

ROBBINS: I don't know about that. I've been -- I've had a ticket to history. I've had a chance to be around some really magnificent people and learn from them along the way, in some ways be able to assist them as well.

MORGAN: What is the common theme of anybody in their kind of positions where you get to be hugely famous with all the pressures that brings. What do they need from somebody like you?

ROBBINS: Well, they all have something different. I mean I get the phone call when the athlete is melting down on, you know, the middle of a sporting event, you've got to do something right now to turn him around or --


MORGAN: And what do you say? When that specific thing is happening, what do you say?

ROBBINS: It's not a say, it's putting him back in state. You know you look at somebody like Tiger Woods. He has the same skills he always have. What he's lost is the state, he's lost that certainty. I'm sure you've seen a sporting event, any sporting event and you watch the person walking out on the field, go for a free throw, kick, and you know before they're going to do it they're going to miss. You can see that certainty is missing.

So it's getting them back in that psychological emotional state where their best comes naturally in that case. But then I get a phone call where a child is suicidal or the president of United States calls and says they're going to impeach me in the morning, what shall I do?

MORGAN: Did that actually happen? Bill Clinton called you the night before.


MORGAN: 1998, and said, Tony, they may be impeaching me in the morning. What should I do? What an extraordinary position of responsibility you had.

ROBBINS: Well, I'm sure I'm not the only person he called.

MORGAN: Certainly you're one of the people he called.

ROBBINS: But by any stretch yes.


MORGAN: I don't know -- just think back for a moment. That moment, how did you feel? I mean despite all these incredible things that you've experienced, to have the president of your country call you in his great hour of need?

ROBBINS: Well, you know, if you're thinking about yourself in a moment like that, you can't really serve, so then it would be all about you. What I felt was a sense of responsibility and also felt I need to tell him straight what I really believed. And you know I knew he was going to get different opinions.

But I don't really talk about what I do with someone unless they speak about it. But I did speak at that point and said, frankly, you know, you're not going to be impeached in the morning. Easy for me to say. I'm not in your position. Just politically it's not going to happen. But what you have to decide is what your legacy is going to be, what's your outcome. Because you have to decide what you're going to be able to say that people at home can tell their children about you, you have to look at what you can do legally.

But if I were you I'd be doing what you know is right and nothing less in that process because you want to look yourself in the face. So -- but the point of the matter is people know what's right. I think what happens for us is we get ourselves caught up in an environment where we forget what's right because the environment starts to trigger us. My job is to get them out of the triggers, get them into what's really real and sometimes it's a strategy of helping somebody win, sometimes it's changing their psychological state, sometimes it's really helping them to break through some limiting belief.

MORGAN: Do you personally ever have crushing moments of self- doubt?

ROBBINS: Self-doubt as often as you do.


MORGAN: That's not often.

ROBBINS: But it's not because I'm so great or brilliant, it's just like, you know, an athlete. When you build a muscle over and over in your life, you do it. That doesn't mean I'm always right either by any stretch of the imagination. It's not crushing self doubt. Have I had failures, challenges? I mean I remember doctors coming to me and saying you've got a tumor in your brain, what are you going to do? You know? You have to make those decisions when you have total uncertainty in your life and it helps if you've trained yourself to be able to make decisions on those moments.

MORGAN: Oprah Winfrey called you the Energizer bunny on steroids. Now be honest, when you first heard that, what was your reaction?

ROBBINS: That was pretty horrific.


ROBBINS: But she -- you know, she came to my event, you know, for years she's known about me, not had me on for whatever reason. She thought these commercials I was -- you know, commercial of some sort, not spiritual. She came and said I'm only coming for two hours, I can't do more than. She stayed for 12. And it changed her life. She said literally on the air it was one of the most powerful experiences of her entire life and then she got my great two shows and now we're doing these specials on these Mondays, these life classes, which are really a lot of fun.

MORGAN: I mean I've watched you do some of your live performing on television. You have 15,000 people going crazy. And you come in like a rock star, you're up and you're pumping, you've got this big grin on your face and you're like, boom, and I thought what is the secret? And now I've met you. It's -- one, you're massive. You're absolutely massive.


ROBBINS: But I'm not in a crowd of 10,000 people.


MORGAN: Even then you must look massive. It's like he can't be as big as he seems but you are. You're physically very imposing. How helpful is that to exuding the kinds of inner self-belief that you clearly have?

ROBBINS: Well, clearly it's not just about inner self-belief, it's really about people getting to the truth. I believe people -- I'm not into positive thinking. I'm not only saying go to your garden and chant there's no weeds, there's no weeds, there's no weed. I'm here to say here's the weeds, here's how you're going to pull them out.

I'm much more of a strategist. But to answer your question deliberately, I was 5'1" my sophomore year in high school. I was student body president and I wasn't a popular kid. I had this drive and this hunger to serve and make a difference. I ran like a political campaign. I went to each group and said, what do you need, I'll come back and tell you whether I can really do it or not, my belief. I went and interviewed people and I won not as the popular kid but as the kid that raw and real, believed what I could do, and I really delivered.

I was there every single day of the summer. So it started back in high school when I was Mr. Solution for people, regardless of my size.

MORGAN: Like many people who become very successful, you had a really traumatic upbringing. Your father left when you were very young, your mother brought you up, it was really fairly chaotic from all accounts.


MORGAN: Had a number of substance issues, and so on and so on, and at 17 she throws you out of the home. What did all that do to you as a young man, when you're coming out in your teens? You've gone through this hideous time. You haven't really experienced, I guess, real love from either parent.

ROBBINS: No, I don't think that's right. I had four fathers.


ROBBINS: I got to know at different levels. My mother, you know, kept changing that area. My mom made me feel loved. She also, you know, was abusive and I never talked about that.

MORGAN: Did she ever tell you she loved you?

ROBBINS: Absolutely. And she was physical loving but she would also go to the other side because she had substance challenges. And what it made me was a practical psychologist. I had to learn how to be able to read her, what was really going on. What could I anticipate what's going to happen and that gave me I think skill sets in life that allowed me to read almost anybody in the future because it was life and death in the case.

MORGAN: And also so unpredictable.

ROBBINS: Exactly right.

MORGAN: So you had to literally roll with the waves.

ROBBINS: And I know what suffering feels like and that gives you a hunger to make sure other people don't suffer.

MORGAN: Let's take a short break, Tony. And when we come back, I want you to put your hat on and fix America in about six minutes.

ROBBINS: OK, perfect.


ROBBINS: Sounds like perfect. MORGAN: I can't think of anybody else who could actually do this, but you might be able to.




ROBBINS: As hard and strong as you can. Benefit. Benefit. You got it. Go.

OPRAH WINFREY, TV HOST: Yes, yes, yes.


MORGAN: Back with Tony Robbins. That was Oprah demonstrating the famous fire walk during the multi-day seminar. "Unleashed the Power Within." I mean you could have nearly killed Oprah Winfrey.


MORGAN: She's fallen into your fire, what would you have --

ROBBINS: I know. I mean that's what --

MORGAN: What if she was lying there in flames and you're watching $3 billion worth of talent going up all down to you. Boy, that takes confidence. Shoving Oprah Winfrey unto your fire.

ROBBINS: No, what takes confidence is our breakthrough show. I took a man, I wanted to do a show where we have the opportunity to get people who were facing the worst environments. You know, today you look around, Piers, and you see people, 63 percent of the country now says their best days are behind us.

That the future for their kids in the south will be far less than what they've experienced. So I thought, what's the best way to do it. You can tell people all day long it's going to be better and that's not going to do anything. We have to make it better. So I thought if I do a show where I could take people who had extreme problems, extreme stress, and show them turn around in 30 days, so I'll tell you what the (INAUDIBLE) courage was, I said give me some examples.

We found a woman and his wife who were literally getting married down in Mexico. They jumped into a swimming pool and he becomes a quadriplegic instantly. Literally blood in the water. He's now here in L.A. in a little room, he can't move. His wife is never going to be able to have a child with him, she's his caretaker. And what do you do to turn this guy around 30 days, who says his life was over. And I thought I can do this. I can figure a strategy to do this. And not just be uplifting but be real and have it last. And really in essence what I've been able to do was figure out how to shift his story about what's possible in his life. Because you and I both know people have a great life.

MORGAN: Let's take a clip from that very moment. Watch this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm great. This is amazing. Amazing.

ROBBINS: The man is a quadriplegic. Physically jumping out of an airplane seems a little insane to most people but so much of our lives is on automatic pilot that we don't even see it anymore. He was able to not only do this but really, really enjoy it.


MORGAN: You see, that is -- obviously it's great television, but it's also a profoundly moving thing to watch.

ROBBINS: It was unbelievable to experience.

MORGAN: To see that man's face feeling like he was alive again.

ROBBINS: He couldn't -- he said he couldn't leave the house. And I took him to Fiji, which was a trip by itself. I won't waste your time but they dropped him, if you can imagine. I got him skydiving in a few days. I separated him from his wife who said it couldn't happen and for 10 days, (INAUDIBLE) murder ball which you've never seen it looks like Mad Max.


ROBBINS: Rugby for quadriplegics. Transformed his identity. I had him build a truck that he couldn't build when he's able bodied, and went with him 100 miles an hour. He drove it with his elbows. With all this and then rewiring his life today, and he calls me, he's out camping. His wife got cancer, after the show, had brain cancer. Everybody said to me, Don, she took charge and made it happen.

The man changed his life because I always say that talking is wonderful, but an experience is much more powerful than a belief. So I give people experiences that help them to change.

MORGAN: You do. You also give people advice. There are businessmen in this country who are rumored to pay you a million dollars a year to give them advice.

ROBBINS: I have one client who's one of the top 10 financial traders in the world. He's been my client for 20 years that way.

MORGAN: Why are you worth that kind of money to somebody like --

ROBBINS: I'm not coming to inspire him. He doesn't need any inspiration.

MORGAN: What does he need?

ROBBINS: I'm a strategist. What I'm best at is modeling. I came in when he made a lot of money and then lost money. He hasn't lost money any year for the 20 years I've worked with him. So he gives me that seven figures, plus a kind of a piece of the upside, if you will.

When I come in, every single time, three or four times a year, I will come in and figure out how to improve his strategy, figure out -- because the markets are always changing. What do we need to do? What do we need to do in the system to get the result.

So most people think of me as the positive thinking guy, because I do believe in passion and energy, and I believe in an inspired life. The other choice is a dead life. So I bring energy. But the strategy is what makes it work.

MORGAN: Let me give you a scenario. I am the patient. And I am America, Incorporated. Now there are clearly fundamental problems in America right now. And yet I like to call this segment Keeping America Great, because it remains a great country.

ROBBINS: I agree.

MORGAN: And I would imagine plays perfectly to your constant air of positivity. What is the solution to the American current malaise, do you think?

ROBBINS: In one minute or two?


ROBBINS: I think there's five areas I look at personally. I look at them how I can make a difference in my time, my money and my investments there. I look at energy because right now we continue to pollute the environment and we're sending our money overseas, and we've got wars that are basically funded, to a great extent, to try to protect our oil.

And it's an old technology and it's out. We know that there's other technology available. So when there's guys like Elon Musk that build Tesla, and they build a car that can go zero to 60 in 3.9 seconds, and 250-mile range on the thing, you know something can be done.

T. Boone Pickens is a friend of mine. He's got a plan that can take eight million trucks and wipe out about 60 percent of our use of foreign oil, just by getting us to convert like we did from gasoline to diesel, making that conversion now to natural gas, which we have plenty of.

He lost by six votes in the Senate. He's going to get it done. Energy is one place. Cheap, natural energy and energy that hopefully gets us away from polluting.

Second piece for me really is education. We all know it's antiquated. It's insane. There are lots of great people that are creating breakthroughs, but the institution keeps stopping it. There are a few people that are doing breakthroughs like the Kahn Institute (ph). But we're -- now teachers are starting to actually do the homework with kids in class, having them watch the class at home, be in class where I can interact with you and actually teach you and see dramatic changes in that area. So there are things that can be done. And I work in that area, obviously.

Third to me, I look at employment. We have to retool. If you look at the last -- since 1960, there have been eight recessions. Every time we expand unemployment. And the most we've ever done on average in the past is 52 weeks. I totally believe in supporting. I personally -- my foundation, we feed two million people. I was fed when I was a kid. I fed 250,000 people in New York last week as a gift that I did at one of my events.

So I believe in that. I'm not pumping my horn. I just want you to know I believe in that. But when you give people 99 weeks, and you don't retool them, where they're literally for two years not working, and we operate from a belief that these low skill, low knowledge jobs are ever going to come back, even if Apple, like you talk about, brought it back, it's not -- it's like saying bring farming back from a century ago.

We were 80 percent farmers. Now we're two percent. We have to retool. If we're going to take people and do that, I say give them the money they need, but they have got to do something for it and they've got to be retooled for it, to match where the economy is going in reality.

MORGAN: What's the last one of your five points?

ROBBINS: It's the health side. It's human energy. The look at five Es. It's that human energy side. Because if you look at the diseases that eat up all our time and energy and money and our health bills that we're looking at, the trillions of dollars we're looking at, they're really mostly lifestyle diseases.

There's a man named David Feinberg who runs UCLA here. He has the hospitals there. And he turned the hospitals around from a place that 33 percent of the people said it was a good place to go, and now it's 99 percent. It's better than the Four Seasons.

And what he did was change the culture there, but he saves lives. He's taught people -- for example, four people out of 1,000 who have got an intravenous form of transfusion would get ill, and one of the four would die. Now none do. Sounds impossible. He just changed the system.

So we can make behavioral changes culturally that would allow us to reduce those bills, provide more energy that could be implemented in your family and your life.

MORGAN: Tony, it's been a real pleasure.

ROBBINS: Thank you for having me.

MORGAN: Thanks for coming in.

Tony Robbins. "Breakthrough With Tony Robbins" airs on Mondays, and does "Life Class," both on the OWN Network. Monday night is Tony Robbins night on the OWN Network with Oprah. Thank so much for joining me.

ROBBINS: Thanks for having me.

MORGAN: Coming up, from tarnished beauty queen to superstardom; Vanessa Williams tells all.





MORGAN: The signature song from a multi talented superstar, Vanessa Williams. She's an actress, singer and of course a former beauty queen. She's now written a candid, moving and revealing memoir titled "You Have No Idea." And Vanessa Williams joins me now to tell me what I have no idea about.


MORGAN: I love the introduction, because talking of sales pitches for a book, "throughout my life, mum's lessons have helped me survive it all: scandal, love, marriages, divorces, disappointments, children, death, failure, success." Wow!

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

MORGAN: We've got a lot to talk about.

WILLIAMS: We have a lot to talk about. But "You Have No Idea," it came from one I had won Miss Greater Syracuse as a sophomore, my sophomore year at Syracuse. And when they crowned me, all my friends who were watching and in the audience cheering me on, they said they have no idea who they just chose, because I was a normal kid.

You know, I was not this archetypal beauty queen who had been groomed her whole life. I was a New York chick who was in my sophomore year studying musical theater and I had lived my life. And it's in the books.

MORGAN: You certainly have lived your life. And we'll come to some of that. Let's go back to September, 1983, when you were crowned the first-ever black Miss America. Did you have any concept in that moment of just what was going to happen with your life, your career? Because it went crazy after that.

WILLIAMS: No idea. I was 20 years old, about to start my junior year abroad actually in London. Syracuse, their musical theater department has a junior year abroad option. And I was really excited about starting my year. I thought I would, you know, get some scholarship money and then be able to get back. I had no idea what would happen to my life.

MORGAN: There you are, you're the winner. You immediately start getting attacked by almost everybody. You get racist whites who threaten to throw acid on you.

WILLIAMS: Kill me.

MORGAN: Unbelievable. You also get the black community saying you're too white. They have used lighting to make you look whiter; that's why you won. You're getting it from everybody. There you are, young, fresh-faced, beautiful young woman who should be having the great moment of her life and it's like hell. What are you thinking when it all started erupting like this?

WILLIAMS: Well, there was a large part that was fantastic and positive and overwhelming. And you know, at 20 years old, again, this wasn't my dream to be a beauty queen. My dream was to finish school, go to Yale for graduate work and be on Broadway. So the fact that I was side tracked and became this symbol overnight, that every comment that I made was going to be scrutinized, and every comment that I made was going to be the symbol of an entire race, it was a lot of pressure.

MORGAN: Huge pressure.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's when I started getting my battle wounds, when I wasn't black enough, when I didn't -- people didn't think I had the black experience.

MORGAN: Nine months after you win, you're engulfed in scandal.

WILLIAMS: Engulfed.

MORGAN: I love that phrase. Nude pictures published in "Penthouse Magazine." Let's look at you resigning here.


WILLIAMS: I must relinquish my title as Miss America. It has never been and it is not my desire to injure, in any way, the Miss America title or pageant. I feel at this time I should expend my energies in launching what I hope will be a successful career in the entertainment business. I feel my new career will be the greatest challenge in my life.


MORGAN: I mean, a dramatic moment for you. Probably a pretty sad and awful moment in many ways. You write, "you have no idea who I am and what I can do." This is what you're thinking at the time. "One day the dust will settle, you'll see what I'm made of. You'll accept me for who I really am."

Do you feel that's happened? Do you feel that you achieved that goal?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, partly. I think it's always a constant challenge to prove who you are. My whole career, you know -- when you -- when I first got a claim on Broadway, oh, I didn't know she could sing and dance and act. When I first had a recording hit, oh, I didn't know she could sing.

So it's -- I've always had to kind of prove myself. Right now, I'm in my six years I've been on television. It's been fantastic. I've gotten three Emmy nominations. Oh, I didn't know she could act. I didn't know she was funny. So I'm used to it.

MORGAN: Do you think you would have achieved all this if it hadn't been for the notoriety and the fame of the scandal, the Miss America Scandal? Do you think you would have had the platform to realize your dreams?

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. I don't think I would have had the initial platform at age 21 or, you know, 20. But it didn't take away my talent. It was actually -- it kind of negated a lot of talent or any kind of hope that I had to be taken seriously for a long time.

People who had performed with me knew what I could do, but people that did not just thought I was a pageant girl and one-dimensional and I was lucky, a one-hit wonder. I mean, it took a long time to have longevity.

MORGAN: What I loved about you is that your school teachers clearly had no idea who they were teaching, because they described you as a kid who obeyed rules and followed directions. In fact, you smoked pot and inhaled, drank beer, had premarital sex and posed for nude pictures. You weren't quite what your teachers thought, were you?

WILLIAMS: You have no idea.

MORGAN: Let's take a little break. Let's come back with more shocking revelations. There's so much in here.

WILLIAMS: There's a lot.



WILLIAMS: You, are those Gladiator sandals? Are we in ancient Rome? Will you be wrestling a lion?

Take those off.

Burn these.

You are fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Vanessa Williams in "Ugly Betty." She was nominated for three Emmys for her role as Whilemina. She's back with me now. That was a great part, wasn't it?

WILLIAMS: I loved Whilemina.

MORGAN: Stuff you dream of, isn't it?

WILLIAMS: Wearing fabulous clothing and bossing people around. It doesn't get better than that.

MORGAN: It's a very rich book in terms of the content, the detail. It's very inspiring in many ways and actually sad in many ways as well. It's very moving to read it. You had this awful experience when you were molested. You were 10 years old. It was another woman. She was 18, a young woman. Tell me what happened.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I was on a summer vacation with a family friend. And the people that we were visiting with our family friend's friends, so we really didn't know them, but we knew our family friends. And this particular -- there was a sister and brother that we were visiting.

And the girl, who was 18, was kind of our tour guide and took us to Disneyland and, you know, all the sights out here in California. We were in New York. And one particular night, she -- Kate snuck into where myself and my friend were sleeping. And she told me to get down on the floor and she went down on me. And I was 10 years old.

And I knew I shouldn't be doing -- or she shouldn't be doing it. And I didn't say anything. I knew that it was wrong. And I really didn't reflect on it until I was in college, you know, with my boyfriend. And I don't know how it came up. I said you know what, I think I was molested. I mean, I shouldn't have had that happen to me at such a young age by somebody who was 18.

I was taken advantage of. So, you know, I didn't really think about how wrong it was until I was an adult.

MORGAN: You mentioned your father. He clearly was a hugely influential figure in your life. I mean, so much so that your mother believes that this pedestal that you put him on made it very difficult, I think, for other men, because no one ever lived up to your dad, who was clearly this strong, independent-minded, proud --

WILLIAMS: Talented, smart, could do anything.

MORGAN: Hard act to follow.

WILLIAMS: It's a hard act to follow. And -- but, you know, I did marry lovely men.

MORGAN: Unusually, I'd say, you've managed to go through two divorces but you stayed good friends with both of the men.

WILLIAMS: Because I have children. MORGAN: Is that the -- I've been through the same. So I know that that, in the end, is the glue, isn't it?

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. And I have to co-parent. I mean, there are decisions that are made. No matter who's making more money, it's a joint decision. My first husband, I had three wonderful kids with, and we just were together for Easter the past couple weeks. And you know, we're great friends. We talk about the kids a lot, but also he congratulates me on achievements and I do for him, too.

MORGAN: How many times did you say you've been properly in love?

WILLIAMS: Oh, boy. Hmm, one, two -- probably four.

MORGAN: You married two of them?


MORGAN: Or am I making an assumption there?

WILLIAMS: Well, I do mention in the book that the two marriages that I -- I ended up getting married to I was pregnant both times that I got married. The first time, I was with my husband at the time, my fiance for two year, knew each other well, planned on getting married, but Melanie sped up the process.

With Rick, we had dated for about a year. And, again, you know, Sasha was a surprise. And that definitely -- we got married -- three weeks. That was the speediest one.

MORGAN: You are quite a naughty girl.

WILLIAMS: Naughty? Fertile, maybe yes. Naughty, I don't know.

MORGAN: Have you matured fully or are you still slightly naughty?

WILLIAMS: I have nothing going on in my life right now. So I have nothing to be naughty about.

MORGAN: You say that with a sense of real regret in your voice.

WILLIAMS: I would love to be in a relationship.

MORGAN: Would you?

WILLIAMS: Yeah. I would. I'm a romantic. I love having a partner. I love -- I'm one of those girls that loves to cook and bake and provide and make -- my home is my sanctuary. And I love making my home and my family, my dog, everything, you know, part of my life.

MORGAN: If I could find for you now the perfect man, based on all you've learned about love, romance, divorce, heartbreak, what would he be like?

WILLIAMS: Available, and available for a relationship, and not afraid of a relationship. Accomplished and not afraid of a woman who is accomplished as well. There's nothing wrong -- there's nothing wrong with being accomplished. There's nothing to be afraid about. There's no competition necessary.

MORGAN: I want to talk "Desperate Housewives." How did you all get on, because you're all quite tough character. Aren't you? Lots of rumors. It was like simmering tensions.

WILLIAMS: Not at all.

MORGAN: Cat fights at dawn.

WILLIAMS: Not at all. The women welcomed me with open arms. They're all fantastic. They're all really different and different from their characters. I've had such a wonderful ride for two years to be part of an iconic show like that.

MORGAN: Must be a strange moment, when something so iconic comes to an end.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. What are they going to do with Wisteria Lane? What's going to happen to these houses? But, you know, every -- I've been to Felicity's house for game night, which is fantastic. Terri Hatcher has an annual Halloween party that I go to.

Eva -- I went to one of her -- she had a masquerade, roaring '20s birthday party last year. Everyone has their own thing and their own style. And Marcia's a rock and I love her. It's been a really extraordinary experience.

MORGAN: It's been a real pleasure. It's a great book.

WILLIAMS: Thank you so much.

MORGAN: Nice to see you. When we come back, Only in America.


MORGAN: For tonight's Only in America, in Defense of Axl Rose. Now let me lay my cards firmly on the table right from the top. I love Axl Rose. The greatest performance I've ever seen any rock singer give was by Mr. Rose in Copenhagen, Denmark, in 1991. He screeched. He strutted. He strummed and he smashed his way through two hours of blistering Guns 'n Roses musical fury.

And it was without any doubt the single most dangerous, exciting, stunning thing I've ever seen anybody doing on any stage ever. Axl behaved off stage in the same way he behaved on stage, boozing, snorting, womanizing, feuding his way into Rock 'n Roll folklore, until the band broke amid acrimony so unsolvable that not even a regular 250 million dollar payday offers can persuade him to reform the original lineup.

Axl's the Chuck Norris of rock, a bad ass renegade whose "Appetite for Destruction" is as angry and authentic as it was 25 years ago. So why is anybody surprised that he rejected the chance to be inducted into the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame?

What part of Axl Rose did people think would embrace the concept of becoming an officially old, respectable music industry legend? Axl reacted the way I assumed and hoped he would react. He shredded the invitation to pieces and threw it out of the hotel room, along with the TV. Then he fired off a long and appropriately rambling open letter, slamming the honor, refusing to accept it, and making it quite clear that even if hell froze over, he would have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame or a Guns 'n Roses reunion.

Let sleeping dogs lie is how he put it, while taking a shot at what called the "greed of this industry and the ever present, seemingly limitless supply of wannabes and unscrupulous, irresponsible media types." Apart from me, obviously.

This week, he followed up that enraged missive with a Tweet to his fans, snarling, "I still don't exactly know or understand what the hall is or how or why it makes money, where the money goes, who chooses the voters and why anyone on this board decides who, out of all the artists in the world that contribute to the genre, officially is rock enough to be in the Hall?"

Exactly. Axl's behavior has been widely criticized as disrespectful. What a load of old poppy cock. The disrespect came from the Hall of Fame chiefs assuming Axl Rose would want anything do with their organization or their so-called honor.

In an era where even Mick Jagger, of all people, accepted a knighthood from her majesty, the queen, thus conferring on himself the title of official Rock 'n Roll fuddy duddy, thank God there's still one wild man out there prepared to fly the flag for real rockers.

Tonight, I salute Axl Rose, you crazy, untamed, sublimely talented outlaw of a man. For everyone who disapproves of that, "Welcome to The Jungle."

That's all for us tonight. "AC 360," another rock wild man, starts right now.