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JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Mothering or Smothering; Secret Pig Abuse Revealed; Adam Mayes is Dead; Two Young Bain Girls are Alive

Aired May 11, 2012 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you from New York City.

A dramatic, violent end to a nationwide man hunt. One of the FBI`s ten most wanted, Adam Mayes, now dead and his two young hostages we`re happy to say are safe. The murder suspect shot himself as police closed in on him. He and the sisters he abducted were hiding out in the woods only a mile from his Mississippi home where cops say he buried two bodies. Were Mayes and the two girls there all along?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, a dramatic rescue in the search for two missing Tennessee girls as cops close in on the man accused of double murder and kidnapping. Police say he shot himself in the head.

We`ll tell you what we are now learning about Adam Mayes even more troubled past. It`s a JVM investigation.

Plus the "Time" magazine cover that everyone`s talking about. Is this taking the mommy wars to a whole new level?

I`ll talk to "big bang theory" star why she thinks this is the best way to raise your child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was on the FBI`s most wanted fugitive list.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was really about the public coming forward with information that helped us to get to this resolution.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities got a call from someone who spotted a vehicle that they believed belonged to Mayes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A dramatic and abrupt end as cops closed in on him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These officers, they were in that wooded area and they heard a gunshot as they were closing in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayes shot himself in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayes pulled a semi-automatic pistol from his waistband and shot himself in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to have seen Adam face his charges. He took the easy way out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Other agents moved in to rescue Kyliyah and Alexandria who are lying on the ground nearby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girls were found alive and appear to be unarmed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two missing Tennessee girls alive and at this point unharmed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girls were hungry, thirsty and dehydrated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very likely knew that their mother and older sister had been killed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, from the most wanted list to the county morgue, fugitive and double murder suspect Adam Mayes is dead. The two young sisters he kidnapped somehow survived their two-week long nightmare. Police say they were counting on a crucial tip from the public and they got it. Somebody called last night about an old cabin about a mile from the Mayes Mississippi home saying it has electricity and could be a good hiding place.

When officers went in to check it out they found Mayes and the Bain girls hiding in the nearby woods.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AARON FORD, FBI SPECIAL AGENT, MEMPHIS OFFICE: Mayes pulled a semi- automatic pistol from his waistband and shot himself in the head and was later pronounced dead at a local hospital. Other agents moved in to rescue Kyliyah and Alexandria who were lying on the ground nearby. The girls were hungry, thirsty and dehydrated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Physically, the 8 and 12-year-old girls are OK, but we can only imagine how deep Alexandria and Kyliyah`s emotional scars run. The their mom and an older sister, murdered in their Tennessee homes two weeks ago. The two younger girls forced to ride to Mississippi in the very same car that carried the bodies of their mom Jo Ann and their sister Adrienne.

And we are now learning they were strangled to death. Strangled. Adam Mayes and his wife Teresa then fled with the two younger girls who Mayes claimed were his daughters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSIE TATE, TERESA MAYES` MOM: He lives, eats sleeps and breathes nothing, but these two children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gary Bain and his adult daughter were supposedly fast asleep in the very same home while Jo Ann and Adrienne were strangled and Kyliyah and Alexandria were abducted.

Does anyone find it hard to believe that a violent, chaotic scene like that wouldn`t wake them up?

We are also getting new details about Mayes` strange history with the Bain girls. Two years ago he was investigated for alleged improper conduct with Kyliyah. A family member reported, he was alone in the bathroom with the child when she was at about seven and Mayes was shaving her legs. No charges were filed but, why did the girls` parents continue to allow this Adam Mayes character anywhere near their three daughters?

So many questions in this horrific case. Straight out to reporter George Howell live on the ground in Whiteville, Tennessee - George.

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jane, at this point we know three other people were arrested in this case. We know that one person was arrested for filing a false police report. Two other people and we`ve learned this was a wife and husband duo arrested apparently for possessing -- illegal possession of a firearm. We also learned from a source that this couple gave the firearm, the gun to Adam Mayes, the same gun he used to shoot himself in the head, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How are the two little girls? The surviving daughters. Where are they?

HOWELL: Well, we know they were released from the hospital overnight and we have learned from a relative that they are back with family obviously given what they went through you can imagine they are relieved to be back home. You can only imagine what they went through in situation and how long they were out in the wooded area is still unclear. But, obviously, back today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I imagine the folks in that neighborhood who were -- we talked to some of them just living in terror because this mad man was running around and considered armed and extremely dangerous.

How do they feel now that he is dead and the two girls are -- thank God, I love this outcome, safe and sound.

HOWELL: I think right now, there`s just a collective sigh of relief. I mean, we`re talking about two different states, two different areas and two communities. People in these communities obviously relieved.

Number one, to know that these girls are safe and, obviously, to know that Adam Mayes is no longer in this picture, that he no longer has those girls.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We cover so many sad stories. This was -- I jumped for joy when I heard this last night, I was -- hallelujah, we got those girls alive. It warms my heart and it is what we live for on this show and on HLN.

Now, we have the documents showing the allegations. This is the crazy back story against this Adam Mayes character who killed himself.

In 2010 when Kyliyah was about 7-years-old. According to an official report, a family member walked into a bathroom and witnessed Adam Mayes and Kyliyah together. The relative say Mayes was shaving the little girl`s legs. Who shaves a 7-year-old`s legs? Let`s just ponder that for a moment.

Now, the family member alleged that Mayes also had a stash of pornography in his bedroom. Mayes exclaimed that well, his sister made the whole thing up and said his sister was mad at him for kicking her out of his house and no charges were ever filed.

Still, I have to wonder why Jo Ann Bain and her husband would continue to allow Adam Mayes to see their three girls and even stay inside their home.

And I want to go out to our very special guest T.J. King, lead investigator in that child abuse case back in 2010.

Sergeant King, thank you so much for joining us sir.

Does it disturb you give know this case that you investigated even though no charges were formally filed that after all of this and this talk of the bathroom, shaving the little girl`s legs that the Bain family allowed this creep, if I may call him that, to stay very much involved with the family and the three daughters?

T.J. KING, MARTIN COUNTY, SHERIFF`S OFFICE (via telephone): It amazes me sometimes the capacity the parents can have in reference to child abuse and neglect as it pertains to their children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell us a little bit about this investigation. I understand you actually tried a little trick or law enforcement try a trick to see if he would order pornography and he did not order child pornography. But as I was reading, it occur to me well, if they knew that they were on to him and if he knew they were investigating him, he might have been scared off thinking it was a trap. Tell us about that.

KING: Well, based on the allegations, the child was interviewed. She did not give any kind of disclosure in reference to the stash of pornography or the shaving the legs incident. So we had to take other alternative measures to try to verify that there was absolutely no evidence to be found in this case. We did try several things. One going through the postal inspection service. At the time we conducted a walkthrough through the family home, the Mayes family home and they had a computer. However, it was not hooked up to the internet.

So, the only way of him obtaining child pornography would be through one, into the mail or two, him just going to the convenience store and purchasing it or at another store.

We did the walkthrough. We didn`t find any kind of evidence pertaining to the allegation. But we did attempt to try to bait him to subscribe to some child pornographic material, but he did not take the bait.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you ever meet him? Did he creep you out or did his whole house creep you out?

KING: Well, his house was very dilapidated, and there are some issues in reference to it, but as his wife Teresa said that the kids were the Bain children were there every once, twice a month and they would come in and they would go to movies, the bowling alley and do fun things with the kids and it was a breakaway from their home and their lives and wife.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I find it extraordinary that these three precious girl, one of whom is now dead were allowed to go to this creep`s house because we`re going to discuss this on the other side of the break. We are hearing more and more about how this Adam Mayes who is now dead was into drugs, drank heavily, never held a job or rarely held a job, was considered a mooch, rarely bathed according to his mother-in-law. All sort of terrible things. So, there he is. There`s the guy shortly before his death. This man is now dead and he shot himself in the head and killed himself, I should say, as police were closing in on him and he abducted these two youngest daughters of the Bain family claiming that they were his.

Why would you let these girls around this guy? On the other side we`ll answer that question.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TATE: She was scared of Adam the same as his mama. His mama was scared of Adam. Adam is evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is Adam Mayes mother-in-law talking to Nancy Grace. That man now dead. In the end it wasn`t a reported sighting that led cops to Mayes. He was on the FBI`s ten most wanted list. He was caught thanks to a solid hunch. Somebody tipped cops off to a good hiding place in an old log cabin with power tucked behind a small church. It`s only about a mile from Mayes` gun town, Mississippi home where Jo Ann and Adrianne`s bodies were buried in shallow graves. Investigators have already checked out the cabin days ago.

But Mike Books, HLN law enforcement analyst, when officers went back last night they found Mayes and the girls hiding in the woods near that cabin. This is absolutely fascinating that a tip, you know, we hear so much about tip, but a tip led cops to this psycho.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, they had a command post already set up, Jane. In fact, the command post was about ten miles from where he killed - where he shot himself and subsequently died and the two girls were rescued.

But no, they were going on a tip and as the leads were coming in, I was hearing from my sources closer to the investigation that as the leads would come in they would follow him up. They had been out there and apparently someone had seen a car nearby there and that`s what led them back out there as officers from the Mississippi highway patrol and the department of fisheries, wild life and parks approached him. He stood up, pulled a gun and put it to his head and shot himself, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, I think you and I probably are both exactly on the same page about this. Hallelujah that these two girls were found safe and sound and this guy is out of the picture.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We wait for outcomes like this because we have so many sad stories where the outcome is that the innocent dies. Jo Ann and Adrienne, speaking of innocents, and sadly, we did lose two innocents the mother and daughter, were strangled to death in their home. That`s not a quiet way to go. It takes at least a good minute or so and you expect screaming and a struggle. How on earth could Jo Ann`s husband Gary Bain and his adult daughter and granddaughter have slept through all of that.

Now, Gary has said very little and he`s been in seclusion since this nightmare began. Listen to his very brief comment. Short.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY BAIN, WIFE AND FOUR DAUGHTERS KIDNAPPED: I don`t think I can hold it together long enough to talk to anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, author of "Swagger." Attorney Bloom, this husband of the dead woman and the father of the oldest child never heard a thing? I find that just surprising. It`s also surprising that Adam Mayes, in order to kidnap the two youngest Bain daughters` kills their mother, kills the older sister, but spares the dad who is also in the house. Do you find that as bizarre as I do?

LISA BLOOM, AUTHOR, "SWAGGER": I do, Jane, and it is disturbing. Of course, he`s not a person of interest. He`s not accused of anything wrong, but just common sense tells us there`s something wrong here. How has this man allowed to be interacting with the family after there`s been an accusation against him, you know, even if the accusation is found to be unfounded by the police. A parent should say that`s it, you`re out of here. That`s all I need to know. You don`t have to be, you know, proven guilty for a parent.

If there is somebody this suspicious, het him out to your house. Don`t let them interact with your children, so I don`t get it.

And I would also say, as to the girls were found safe. Thank God they`re safe, but they`re not necessarily sound and they`ll probably have psychological injuries for a long, long time. This is a major trauma that they have been through. It`s been two weeks and then watching a man kill himself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Not only watching a man kill himself, but the horror of being in a same vehicle as your dead mother and dead sister as the bodies are transported along with you across state lines and after you`ve been abducted and then hiding out in the woods.

Mike Brooks, again, I want an answer to this question and I don`t know if we can come up with one, but, do you think it might be that we know that Gary, the husband, the patriarch of the Bain family.

BROOKS: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Has a long history of this Adam Mayes who was now dead. This Adam Mayes. Do you think because Gary had previously been married to Adam Mayes` sister that that`s why Adam Mayes spared him when he killed the wife?

BROOKS: Yes. Because that`s probably one of the only friends that he had, Jane. And because there was a relationship there because they were very, very close and, you know, and Mayes was considered a family friend, if you will. And that`s probably the reason why he was spared and also could be the reason why the investigation against Mayes for the child porn didn`t go further than it did.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One of the most popular videos online. Your "viral video of the week."

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. PHIL BRYANT (R), MISSISSIPPI: It has been said that this incident has come to a happy ending, but a mother and a 14-year-old child are dead. Two other young girls` lives have been forever changed and a man took his own life, hardly a happy ending.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The governor of Mississippi responding to the dramatic end of this massive manhunt, this character on the ten most wanted list shot himself in the head and the two young girls he abducted now safe, although obviously traumatized because he, cops say, killed their mother and older sister in a bid to take the two youngest girls who he claims were his and he was allegedly helped by his wife Teresa Mayes.

Now, Teresa Mayes` mom and sister say this guy Adam Mayes was abusive, controlling, a terrible husband with a drug and alcohol problem. Here`s what Teresa apparently told her mom after moving out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TATE: These were Teresa`s exact words. We`re tired of getting slammed against the walls, knocked around any beat on.

BOBBI BOOTH, TERESA MAYES` SISTER: He likes to drink a lot. He does a lot of drugs. He`s just a loner. He`s never had like a legitimate steady job. He`s never live out on his own. He`s never, you know, he is always been with his mom and dad. You know, he didn`t finish school. He`s not trustworthy, but like I said, I just never pictured this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Psychologist, Brian Russell. Adam Mayes family and frankly, he was a violent, abusive man fixated on these two young girls Alexandra and Kyliyah. He throws in alcohol, drug abuse, and allegation of sexual abuse that never went anywhere, but still, this is my burning question. How could no one have seen something like this coming?

BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I`m with you, Jane. I don`t have any idea. I think the father has to be feeling some guilt, maybe overwhelming guilt at this point and so I don`t want to pile on to him.

But at the same time I think as these kids go forward that needs to still be looked at. Or what kinds of decision makings go on with regard to these kids and everyone watching of course can learn the lesson. And you made a good point a minute ago when we talk about not profiling people. We are talking about law enforcement not doing that.

But as a parent, you have to profile the people that come around your kids. Just look at the pictures that we are showing of this guy and add on top of that the background that he had. It really is just tragic that he was ever allowed to be in a position to commit these crimes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a cautionary tale. Parents, if some creep is hanging around trying to be, quote, "helpful", helping you pack to move, hanging out with your young daughters, grab your wallet, grab your kids and run as fast as you can in the other direction.

Nancy Grace will have more on this, Jean Casarez, what have you got?

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Jane, the man hunt is over for 35-year-old suspect Adam Mayes who is now dead.

In a miracle, the two missing Bain girls 12 and 8-years-old are alive. As more arrests go down, the Bain family is left to pick up the pieces after the murder of a mother and wife, her 14-year-old daughter and two little sisters traumatized by this tragedy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Check out this cover of "Time" magazine that`s got everybody talking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here you see a 26-year-old mother breastfeeding her three-year-old son.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The controversial cover has a lot of people debating the pros and cons of attachment parenting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Attachment parenting is not extreme. It`s a very natural, instinctual, beautiful way of mothering and fathering your baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He still wants to, and so as long as both are happy doing it, then -- then why not?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The notion was that I was not mom enough because I was not an attachment parent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Three years old and still breastfeeding, a stunning "Time" magazine cover erupts into a full-fledged controversy just in time for Mother`s Day. Here`s the cover stopping people dead in their tracks. A boy almost four years old stands on a chair to breastfeed from his young, hot mom. That mom, 26-year-old Jamie Grumet told Erin Burnett the cover is meant to raise eyebrows.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Is he really breastfeeding in the picture?

JAMIE LYNNE GRUMET, MOTHER ON "TIME" MAGAZINE COVER: Yes, he`s really breastfeeding in the picture. But you know, I think they wanted to try out some artistic poses and give kind of just a really literal and artistic view of extended breastfeeding. Obviously to start, you know, to make it controversial and start a dialogue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As soon as that issue of "Time" hit the newsstands, everybody was talking about it and it even became a late-night punch line. Watch this from "The Tonight Show".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, TALK SHOW HOST: You see the cover? Look at this. I thought it was racy until I did the whole -- Look, oh my God. Look at that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. The article was about attachment parenting and it pits mom against mom boldly challenging "Are you mom enough"?

Mayim Bialik is advocate for attachment parenting and one of the stars of "The Big Bang Theory" on CBS. You may remember her from the classic sitcom "Blossom".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYIM BIALIK, ACTRESS: She`s ruining her life and there doesn`t seem to be anything I can do about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait a minute. Why do you want to help her ruin her life?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mayim also wrote a book on attachment parent called "Beyond the Sling" -- she`s joining me tonight, my very special guest.

Thank you so much for being here. You, I understand, breastfeed your three- year-old son. Tell me why you do it and why this cover, you think, touched such a nerve.

BIALIK: Well, actually I should say I`m also -- I have a PhD in neuroscience and I study the hormones of human attachment so that part of my interest in attachment parenting was in the physiological normalcy of breastfeeding, of sleeping safely near your children, of having your children close to you.

For us, you know, we absolutely believe that when it is no longer mutually desirable the breastfeeding, as all other aspects of parenting, will end. But I think the thing that`s controversial to me about this cover is that not all attachment parents breastfeed into toddlerhood and beyond. That`s not attachment parenting.

And to act like there`s some, you know, attachment parenting police saying you`re not mom enough if you don`t do this, I think it`s a media-generated controversy. It doesn`t exist. Of course, there`s individual women who are told because you didn`t do this you`re not the same as me.

That`s not the policy of Attachment Parenting International. It`s not the policy of Dr. Sears who coined this term. And it`s not the way primates work. This is how our bodies were designed to parent.

And I also think twice just in the intro you`ve sexualized this image referring to her as young and hot, referring -- you know, "The Jay Leno"- thing showing all these men lining up. This is not a sexual image. This is an image of what the mammalian body is designed to do, and that is to feed and nurture a baby. And primates do, do this into the equivalent of toddlerhood. It`s normal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, maybe you`re right that mentioning that she is an attractive woman who seems to be posed provocatively is irrelevant.

BIALIK: I don`t see it as provocative. I don`t see it as provocative.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s why we have you on to ask you about these things. I personally am not offended by it. I`m not a mother. I don`t know how long women can breastfeed after having a child. That was one of my main questions was how long does a woman produce milk after they`ve given birth?

BIALIK: It`s a great question. So the physiology of the human body is that as long as there is a demand there will be supply. I`m a lactation educator counselor also. It`s one of the things we teach. In order to build a milk supply you have to keep having the baby at the breast. As long as the child is stimulating the glands and the hormones that are used to produce milk you will produce milk.

I do still have milk and my child is three and a half.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow.

BIALIK: You don`t have as much as you have with a newborn because their demand is not the same. However, I should say that nutritionally and immunologically there`s still a tremendous amount of information still in breast milk and the relationship which is absolutely hormonally primed and designed continues through toddlerhood as long as it is mutually desirable.

Again, I did not think I would be breastfeeding a 2-year-old much less a 3- year-old. We are on the way to him not breastfeeding. We place a lot of limits and balances around this and that`s what people do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this. I personally think it`s much better for a child to get his own mother`s milk than to get a cow`s milk. Cow`s milk was designed for baby cows not for human beings which is why --

(CROSSTALK)

BIALIK: I happen to be a vegan and I happen to agree. Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I think that`s one of the reasons we have an obesity crisis because calf`s milk can fatten a baby calf to a huge size.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Time" magazine has been criticized for sensationalizing this issue. You`ve criticized us for sensationalizing this issue, but we`re looking at it. I don`t mind criticism and I like to learn and evolve.

Now you might be offended by this. This clip from the Adam Sandler movie "Grown Ups" from YouTube and Columbia Pictures.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mommy, I want some milk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure, angel, come here. I`ll give you a little something.

Slow down, honey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your son is so cute. How old is he?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, he`s 48 months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s four.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Obviously they played this for laughs and everybody was uncomfortable. I think that some people are concerned when they look at that boy they see a more grown-up boy than they expect to be breastfeeding and they wonder could the child become too attached to the mother to just call it in regular vernacular, could he become a mama`s boy?

BIALIK: I think it`s a fascinating question. I think it taps into a lot of our cultural concerns about this kind of thing.

You know, the physiological aspect of it is there`s no such thing as too attached and there`s no such thing as having a secure enough relationship as a child to make you a well-adjusted and independent adult and that`s the goal of all attachment parents as well. We want our children to be independent absolutely.

The timeframe is often different in attachment parenting families as opposed to other families. But yes, it is a large child to breast feed and I think that`s part of the reason that people who are advocates of extended breastfeeding like myself find the cover simply media blitz.

That`s not how we tend to breastfeed when we breastfeed an older child. We hold them, we love them, it`s a connecting moment, it`s a bonding moment. "Time" wanted to sell a magazine by showing a deliberately awkwardly- positioned child that automatically looked odd because he`s on a stool breastfeeding.

Absolutely. Someone posted on my Facebook page, I breastfed my toddler like this, this morning. It`s not something I do and I wouldn`t want to be on the cover of a magazine doing it, but to me, you know, there`s nothing wrong with what she`s doing. I understand people may not do it for themselves. I might not do it on the cover of magazines, but I think the issue is that it`s been sensationalized and, as you indicated, often sexualized as well, the issue.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Now, very quickly, we`re almost out of time, did this increase the pressure on women to breastfeed? Is that a good or bad thing?

BIALIK: In my opinion I wouldn`t call it pressure, you know. I think that the education about your body, about what breast milk does and why it`s different that artificial baby milk. Those things are things that a woman`s right to know what her body produces and how her body births and that whole process. So I think that should be encouraged.

But I know that a lot of women will say to me well, I breastfeed and we slept with our baby and I believe in natural birth but I`m not an attachment parent. And the reason is because of images like this. It makes it look bad for people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, I think we always in the media have a tendency to show extreme examples to get attention but also because extreme examples are -- will spark conversation.

BIALIK: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mayim, thank you so very much for coming on, and I wish you and your son the very best.

Now, here`s another question, how old is too old to breastfeed your child? This came up in the most unlikely of places on the hit HBO show "Game of Thrones". We had to blur this clip because it`s so controversial. Here it is from YouTube.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (inaudible) very bad thing Robin, a very bad thing. You remember her don`t you?

Isn`t he beautiful? Strong proof. His last words were the seed is strong. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy his son would grow up to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That child actor seen breastfeeding was 9 years old. The other characters obviously looked horrified and that is my burning question for Jessica Gottlieb, mom blogger from jessicagottlieb.com. How old is too old to breastfeed? Is there any norm, average age for weaning a human child from his mother`s milk?

JESSICA GOTTLIEB, MOM BLOGGER: I am not an expert on that, but I am willing to say that 9 is too old. I can go out on a limb and --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You`re really taking a controversial stance there.

GOTTLIEB: I am.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, seriously, is there any -- do you get a sense where most mothers say, ok, around this age either I or the child or both of us agree we`re going to do it a little different.

GOTTLIEB: Around my neighborhood I felt like there was a big drop-off right at around 2, and I felt like we were moms that were probably even nursing a little bit later. I`m not sure -- you don`t see a lot of parents nursing preschool age kids. It`s just -- they`re not reliant on food at that point so my assumption is that that is a soothing technique and the much older children that are being nursed are being nursed to sleep.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jessica, let me ask you this question. Your reaction, briefly, to this cover?

GOTTLIEB: I thought that it did the attachment parenting community a huge disservice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does it mean for our kids? We have now moved beyond helicopter parenting and on to attachment parenting.

After all, being a good mom isn`t just about doing one thing right, it`s about doing hundreds of things every day the best you can so that your child is happy, balanced and loved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The whole country debating attachment parenting and breastfeeding and at what point a mom should stop. No shortage of opinions. Listen to this from "The View".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": What are single male parents supposed to do? They can`t breastfeed and then they say in the article you should sleep with your children.

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ELISABETH HASSELBECK, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": It`s really hard because --

BEHAR: Somebody like the Octomom or the Duggars, are they supposed to sleep with all their children? What size are we talking about here?

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joy is so funny. Love her, but the truth is breastfeeding is only one small aspect of rearing a child.

Straight out to my friend and very special guest Lisa Bloom; Lisa, you have written an extraordinary book called "Swagger" which every parent and every son should read. It gives important parenting advice on how to raise a son in our crazy culture.

Are we missing the point that there`s a whole lot more to child rearing than breastfeeding with this "mom enough" issue? Are we reducing mothers down to their biology?

LISA BLOOM, AUTHOR, "SWAGGER": That`s a great question, Jane. I have no problem with the cover. We see a healthy little boy who is not obese or overweight like the majority of American children are. We see a healthy young mom and we see a breast doing what it is designed to do -- to deliver nutrition to a little boy.

We see breasts used to sell cars, to sell beer, to sell every kind of a products and nobody is outraged. Nobody is offended using breasts for that purpose. But when we see them for their actual designed purpose somehow we get upset. I don`t get it. It`s healthy for the kid. It`s healthy for the mom. Let them do it as long as they want.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you 100 percent. It did not freak me out or gross me out. And the fact that she`s attractive shouldn`t sexualize anything. Women are supposed to be attractive. That`s how nature made us, hopefully.

Now, Lisa, in your fabulous book, "Swagger" which I say every mom and dad who has a son needs to read "Swagger". Put it on your list. You lay out ten rules for raising boys. Tell us about some of the most important ones.

BLOOM: Let me tell you why I called the book "Swagger". It`s not a book about how to swagger, it`s a book about how to raise strong sons. There`s a lot of problems out there for boys in school doing very poorly compared to girls and compared to boys a generation ago, a huge number dropping out of high school. Hard for them to get jobs as young men, four times as many young men are going to prison now and when I was a kid an outcome that no parent wants for their child.

So I have the 10 rules in the book that I came up with, doing a lot of research, talking to parents who were doing it right who are raising strong sons. And the number one recommendation I have has to do with that word "swagger" which is the most popular word and in song lyrics today for the last decade across all genres and even Justin Bieber is singing about swagger. Every boy knows what this word is but most parents don`t.

And swagger distilled down is essentially an attitude of arrogance. It`s boys who strut and preen and have bravado, who don`t ask for help when they have a problem. And that attitude of arrogance is harming our sons. So my first rule is to instil instead an attitude of humility. Remember the old- fashioned value, nobody talks about it anymore.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

BLOOM: It turns out that the social sciences, that kids who are humble, who recognize, yea, they`re terrific, but so is everyone else equally to them. They do better in school, their grades go up, they`re emotionally healthier, they`re physically healthier. There`s a lot of benefits from that one attitude adjustment.

Literacy is also important. I have in the book a lot of tips for parents how to get your son reading. I have a 12-page reading list for patients of books boys love to get your boy stimulated and excited about reading because if he`s not reading well by the fourth grade real trouble is going to follow.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Great advice Lisa. We`ve been talking here on my show about the "The Lean". I`m eating an apple a day, drinking eight glasses of water. You can follow this on Facebook. What would you tell boys and their parents about the junk food, fast food culture?

BLOOM: Well, that`s got to go because if you want to be smart you have to put smart things into your body, garbage in and garbage out. And anyone who has had one of those fat, you know, the loaded up kinds of food and then try to think after lunch, we`re all falling asleep. It just doesn`t work. So you have to eat healthy and put smart, healthy things into your brain and, you know, that`s the most important thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, I love you. You`re fabulous.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: A lot of news this week but you also, well, deserve a little laugh break. Check it out.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If those pigs were dogs, would there be animal cruelty charges for keeping them in those crates?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without any question these type of factory farms where animals are treated less like the living, feeling creatures who they are in a 2-foot by 7-foot cage, they can`t turn around. They bite the bars because they`re so frustrated. They can`t move around and engage in behaviors that are so basic to these animals.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Our nation`s shame after watching a new undercover video, you are about to see I believe this is a national turning point. It`s time for all of us to say enough. Americans are decent people. Now that you know these atrocities are occurring, I know you will stand up for what`s right. I warn you these videos you are about to see it`s graphic, but it`s just a snippet. It`s nowhere near the worst of it.

Please power through for a moment because there is a solution and you`re a part of it. Time and time again undercover investigations on factory farms uncover horrific abuse. This time the Humane Society of the United States say they caught workers at a Wyoming factory farm hitting, throwing, dragging pigs and little piglets, among many other abuses like forcefully kicking mother pigs as they resisted leaving their babies.

Now this Wyoming farm is under investigation by local and state authorities. Joining me now Wayne Pacelle, president and CEO of the Humane Society of the United States; since we cannot show our viewers everything in this really disturbing video tell us about some of the horrors caught in this undercover investigation.

And Wayne a caveat, some of the stuff you are going to see is file tape. We will label it as file tape and others are from this latest undercover investigation.

WAYNE PACELLE, PRESIDENT/CEO, HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE U.S.: Jane, you know, I was so sickened to see this footage when our investigator showed it to me. A case of a pig with a broken leg and a worker sitting on the pig causing her to scream because she was in so much pain, throwing piglets against the wall, throwing them against the ground, twirling them; so many other cases of abuse, punching pigs, kicking them. And then, as you say, because the mothers didn`t want to be separated from their babies -- they made great efforts to get back to their babies -- and they did terrible things to them. It`s so unacceptable.

We drew the curtain back on this particular farm in Wyoming and it should be a wake-up call to all of America about what`s going on, on some of the factory farms that are operating in this country.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wyoming Premium Farms says they started their own investigation and they will take action to correct these problems. After seeing this video, one customer, a subsidiary of Tyson`s Food announced they`ve dropped this Wyoming farm as a supplier. Tyson`s farm says they`re appalled and do not condone this kind of treatment.

Now, several large meat companies have recently opened their (inaudible) to the horrors of crating pigs and pig gestation crates and vowed their operations will be gestation crate free in a few years. Wayne, your thoughts on these pig gestation crates?

PACELLE: They are terrible iron maidens. They`re 2-foot by 7-foot cages. These sows weigh 500 pounds; they can barely fit into them. They`re immobilized for their entire life. They may endure seven, eight, nine, ten successive pregnancies. They can`t even turn around Jane. I mean what sort of madness do we have in our food production system where animals are confined so severely that they can`t engage in the most natural and normal behavior like walking and turning around.

And fortunately some companies are now saying they`re going to get out of this -- McDonald`s, Burger King. This past week we have Safeway. This is the way all food retailers should react.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, these are sentient beings. Pigs have at least the IQ of dogs if not more. And this is a shame.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re back with Wayne Pacelle, who is the author of the extraordinary book "The Bond", it`s a must-read. And you can learn more about the Humane Society`s work to end the horrors against factory farming. Go to hsus.org and you can just follow the links there. You can take action.

Wayne, talk to the American people. What do we need to do?

PACELLE: You know, we`ve become disconnected from our food supply, Jane. We`ve got to reconnect. We`ve got to understand what`s going on. We`ve got to be conscious consumers. We have to be aware of what`s going on, on the farm and not remove it from our gaze.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I absolutely agree with you. Americans, it is time. This is a consumer issue. You have the power to speak for these voiceless creatures. No one else can do it. They cannot speak for themselves. They can`t protest for themselves. They can`t rally for themselves. It`s up to you.

Nancy Grace is next.

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