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Fat Discrimination; Kids vs Spouses

Aired May 21, 2012 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.

Listen to this now. Too fat to dance? A woman accuses a nightclub of weight discrimination. She`s live with me tonight.

So is singer Carnie Wilson. Anything you want to ask her? Call right now at 1-855-DRDREW5.

And later, who do moms love more -- kids or husbands? The answer later in the show. Can you guess?

We`re live. Call in. Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening. And welcome to the program.

A reminder that we are live and taking your calls at 1-855-DRDREW5.

Now, fat discrimination. I think this is something that is more common and more painful and more actually profound than most people think. It is common.

And the question here is judging someone because of their weight an acceptable form of prejudice?

Take a look at this tape. Watch this.


PINSKY (voice-over): Is it politically OK to attack those who are heavy? Some say yes. Overweight people have been ordered off planes. They`ve been denied certain jobs. They`re made fun of in movies.

According to the Centers for Disease Control, tens of millions of American are obese -- more than one-third of all adults. That`s a lot of people who may be subjected to possible prejudice.

In the case of Jordan Ramos, she said she wasn`t allowed to dance in public because she`s a size 22.

On two separate occasions, the University of Iowa student was barred from dancing on a platform with her thinner friends. So was Jordan the victim of fat discrimination? Have you been? Are you now?

Carnie Wilson joins me to have this conversation. There she is up on the screen.

Hi, Carnie.


PINSKY: Hey, there.

First I want to go there, this young lady, Jordan Ramos.

Jordan, exactly what did the bouncer say to you?

JORDAN RAMOS, ALLEGES FAT DISCRIMINATION: They told me that I was not pretty enough to dance on top of the platform and they told me that I was obviously pregnant.


Carnie -- I`m going to push Carnie into the screen here. Yes, Carnie, is that not pathetic?

WILSON: It`s disgusting. I mean, I`ve never heard of anything ruder and more presumptuous, you know, to say, you`re not pretty enough. It`s kind of like that old thing where someone`s waiting in line, and yes, you`re allowed to go in/no, you`re not allowed to go in.

I mean, it makes people feel horrible. It`s awful.

PINSKY: Yes, on one hand, Carnie, a lot of attention has been paid in recent years to obesity epidemic and to the health consequences of weight, but have we gone too far? Are we going so far with this that we`re starting to shame people and hold people accountable for a medical problem that may be outside of their control and then judge them and demean them and shame them?

WILSON: You know, I think that the medical part of this, the health part of this, is definitely a separate issue. I think that people that are overweight, slightly overweight, obese, morbidly obese, everybody deserves the same treatment, the same respect as people, as citizens, as human beings. That`s -- I`m very adamant about that.

Health is a different story. But we`re talking about a situation, with a girl, first of all, I saw her picture, she`s adorably cute. She`s adorable. I think she`s very pretty.

Yes, she`s chubby or overweight. But that has nothing to do with the kind of person she is.

PINSKY: Right.

WILSON: She`s at that bar buying drinks probably, at their establishment, at their business, keeping them business, and I think it was incredibly insensitive. And honestly, if you want my honest opinion, I feel like they should change the marquee to like exotic dancer strip club, because that`s a certain type, you know?

PINSKY: That`s right.

WILSON: Right?

PINSKY: You`re right. And reminder, we`re taking calls. If people want to ring in on this at 855-373-7395.

Jordan, I want to hear a little more about the story, though. I mean, it sounds like -- I mean, did you -- how bad was it for you to have this guy pull you aside and go, hey, honey, you`re just not -- you`re not quite up for this?

What -- how did that go down? What did that feel like? What did you go after this guy came up to you?

RAMOS: Well, he didn`t come up to me. I approached him because I wanted him to actually tell me he wasn`t letting me up because of my size. And once they just said that to me, it completely made me feel like a worthless human being, that I wasn`t as valuable as somebody who might be prettier or thinner than me.

And while this is taking place, girls are just going straight up to the platform while this conversation is happening and so I was just thinking to myself, you know, why are they better than me, just because they`re thinner?

PINSKY: Let`s start taking some calls on this.

Ray, you`re in California. Ray, ring in. What do you got?

RAY, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Well, I`m a bar owner in Hollywood and I think this is a little bit more about the economy than it is about fat discrimination. I have a bar, beautiful girls in there all the time. You see a big fatty get up on the stage and start shaking her ass, a lot of people are going to be a little bit -- you know, the guys coming in there are for the beautiful girls, the young, hot girls.

So, could it be that question? I know for me, it`s about the young hot girls dancing on the bar.

PINSKY: Well, Ray, so you`re saying money is more important than someone`s dignity?

RAY: I don`t agree the way he told her to get of the bar. If I had a bouncer that did that, I would absolutely fire him. She shouldn`t have been made to feel bad.

But there are bars about the young, hot girls. What makes a heavy girl think she can get up on top of the bar? I don`t understand what`s that`s about.

WILSON: She has every right to get up on the bar.

RAY: I have every right not to appreciate it.

WILSON: Then they should change the name of the bar.


WILSON: To skinny, you know, whatever chicks that are going to, you know -- they should change the vibe of what that is then.

PINSKY: Patty in Arizona --

RAY: Is this bar in Iowa?

PINSKY: It`s in Iowa. Go ahead, Ray. Finish up.

RAY: I`m just thinking, is it always about the fat discrimination or is it something else? Are they trying to keep a certain look, a certain kind of clientele?

You know, I mean, that`s a possibility, too. Not everything has to be geared to one place. They`re not going to call the place hot chicks when you got not that.

PINSKY: Ray, just please, please, let`s pray for Ray`s soul is all I`m saying.

WILSON: Yes, exactly.

PINSKY: If that`s your motivation my friend, it`s funny, but it`s not.

WILSON: I want to say, what`s not hot about Jordan?

PINSKY: Yes, right, that`s right. Exactly. Thank you for saying that, Carnie.

RAMOS: Thank you.

PINSKY: Patty in Arizona. Patty, what do you got?

PATTY, CALLER FROM ARIZONA: Well, Dr. Drew, I`ve been somebody who`s been a plus-size person my whole life. I`m 50 years old.

When I read Jordan`s story, it made me so sad. All she wanted to do was go out and have fun with her friends, and she gets judged for not being pretty enough, for not being thin enough. Really it`s saying, you`re not good enough.

Because of my name, I was called fatty Patty by my uncle growing up. That kind of nugget stays with you forever and really tears away at your self-esteem. When are people going to realize this is a form of bullying?

PINSKY: Yes. People who are overweight are the object of bullying, very commonly, and it goes by without anybody sort of taking notice of it and all kinds of -- all kinds of other accusations about slobbiness, laziness.

Think about what people do when somebody is overweight -- they throw in a bunch of other negatives in there sometimes.

JP in New York, what do you got?

JP, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, dr. Drew. I feel sorry for the poor young lady for the way she was probably treated at the time of the incident. I mean, nobody likes to feel alienated especially from their friends for any reason. I mean, come on.

But, hey, I`d love to play Major League Baseball for the New York Yankees or NHL hockey for my Rangers, and, you know, come on, to be allowed to play because I have a personal desire to participate. I mean, MLB, NHL, they`re both professional organizations. So is the adult men`s club. They have standard and practices that may be legally exclusionary unlike other organizations that have to abide by a completely different set of state --

PINSKY: JP, let me jump in here. Carnie, you had a look -- a little bit of outrage. You`re saying they should change the name of the club to strip club and it wasn`t, it was bar for young people. That`s what you`re taking issue with.

WILSON: Absolutely. Absolutely. Everybody should be treated equally there. And everybody has the right.

They`re all equal. They`re all equal. If they`re in there and that`s what that bar`s about, that everybody is welcome, everybody`s giving them business. So, you know, they should change the name.

PINSKY: Carnie, help me about this. I feel as though my callers and viewers -- please call in more. I want to go through more calls here. I have a feeling people aren`t being that thoughtful about this.

Is that -- Carnie, do you have same kind -- please help them understand what we`re talking about here.

WILSON: I just -- I just feel -- it just disgusts me because I feel like it`s either about money or it`s about looking like the perfect way. I mean, it makes me sick, like, what, you`re ruining, like, a guy`s fantasy at that moment?

Like, then don`t -- you know, some people like heavier women. So look at them. You like a thinner woman, look to the left of the one who`s a little thinner. There`s someone for everyone.

I don`t feel they should be turned away.

PINSKY: It`s kind of outrageous.

WILSON: That repulses me more.

PINSKY: Teresa -- yes, you`re using strong words like disgust and repulsion. That`s how you`re feeling about this.

Teresa in Kansas, what do you got?

TERESA, CALLER FROM KANSAS: Hi, Dr. Drew, thanks for taking my call.


TERESA: All I`ve got to say is, shame on those people. I feel people who make fun of other people are insecure themselves. They can`t seem to se beyond their own noses to see the inside of a person.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes, I mean, that`s the whole point here is that people are being objectified. People are being judged. People are being discriminated against for the most superficial qualities.

And not only that, I mean, it`s not as though this isn`t a well put together, attractive young lady. She just doesn`t fit a particular profile. It`s a kind of a profiling here going on.

But let me throw a little lighter fluid on this. We next have an anti-obesity activist. That`s right. An anti-obesity activist who says what happened to Jordan is, in fact, fair, that a nightclub just like Ray was saying earlier, nightclubs have a right to protect their brands and what goes on in their establishments.

Again, we got to think about this harder. Stay with us. Keep taking your calls at 855-373-7395. That`s 855-DRDREW5. Carnie, Jordan, stay with me.

Be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We come here all the time. It`s not a big deal. It doesn`t really look that crowded in there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, look, I don`t make the rules.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. You`re obviously pregnant and a bunch of old pregnant people running around, that`s crazy. That`s not even good parenting right there. Your old ass should know better than that.



PINSKY: That was from "Knocked Up" where two women were denied access to a nightclub because of age and pregnancy.

Jordan Ramos had a bouncer bar her from dancing on a stage at a nightclub because she`s plus sized.

Carnie Wilson who sympathized with Jordan`s plight is joining us as well.

Now, guys, we`re going to bring in Mimi Roth. She is the president of the National Action Against Obesity and an anti-obesity activist.

First of all, Mimi, what does that mean? What is an anti-obesity activist?

MEME ROTH, NATIONAL ACTION AGAINST OBESITY: Just working hard to reverse the cultural means that have ushered in this era of obesity, making sure food is healthy at school, making sure the industry is honest about what goes into the food that we eat and making sure we`re all honest about the choices we make and the consequences associated with it.

I come from a long line of obesity and have seen the terrible things that it does to people over the long term.

PINSKY: OK. So I think you would be sympathetic of the sort of social consequences as well and the discrimination that someone experiences when they`re overweight. We hear stories. Kevin Smith is discriminated on an airline and people have to buy two seats -- there are all kinds of things they have to go through. Are you sympathetic?

ROTH: Wait, wait, wait. Sympathetic to those social situations, yes. Nobody wants to be embarrassed. There`s nobody who wants to be asked to -- you mentioned Kevin Smith -- nobody wants to ask somebody to leave a plane. I don`t know one flight attendant who wants to ask somebody to leave a plane. So, that`s a bad situation on both sides.

If you happen to use two seats, you should pay for two seats and I don`t think the rest of the population who might work hard to be a healthy weight should subsidize those who are overweight.

In most cases, obesity is a result of improper -- habitual improper eating. Only in the rarest occasions is it Cushings or (INAUDIBLE) something like that. It doesn`t mean it`s not extremely difficult to maintain a healthy weight in this environment, but it still is nonetheless the result of lifestyle choices.

PINSKY: I would take issue that most of it is a mental health issue, people are abused and come from horrible family systems, and this comes away feeding or feeling the pain, emotional eating. And there`s a much bigger picture here that no one ever talks about.

But certainly discriminating and abusing people in public --

ROTH: I think people talk about -- I think people talk about that all the time, Dr. Drew. I`m not saying it`s not very difficult. I don`t know that two-thirds of the population have been abused and that`s why they`re overweight or obese.

But anyone studying addiction knows that the response we get from eating are very similar, especially to sugary foods. Very similar to the same responses that you get from cocaine.

It is not easy. There are many things we need to do. We can`t throw our hands up and just give up.

Diabetes, cancer, that`s not easy either. We don`t want anyone to suffer these consequences.

PINSKY: Carnie, do you have a response to Mimi?

WILSON: We don`t judge people like if someone`s walking down the street and they have diabetes, we might not know that they have diabetes, that they have to shoot themselves with insulin. But when we see someone walking down the street that`s overweight, we see they`re heavier than the average size, and for some reason, it`s still acceptable to look at this person and judge them and make all these assumptions about their lives, who they are, their lifestyle.

ROTH: If you assume -- if you assume that they`re eating in a way that their weight is a result of how they`re eating, then that`s probably a correct assumption. It`s going to be true in most cases that our weight is a result of our eating and exercise. It`s just a truth.

It`s not like race. It`s not like sexual orientation. It`s not innate. Being obese --

WILSON: We`re talking about how we treat those people.

ROTH: -- is a result of lifestyle -- let`s go back to the other -- I don`t think anyone thinks anyone should be bullied or humiliated.

But I got to go back to this woman who is dancing at the bar. What experiences -- what was she denied the right to dance on the bar, be an exhibitionist, be groped and sexually objectified? We`re all upset she didn`t have that experience?

PINSKY: Jordan, let her respond. What do you say to that, Jordan?

RAMOS: I mean, people probably definitely think that I`m fighting for the right to dance on top of a platform and be objectified. The only reason that I`m talking about that is because that`s where I experienced it. I`m definitely not promoting objectification of women. I just think I was denied the right to have a good time like anybody else, any other 21- year-old girl simply because of my appearance.

PINSKY: I think --

ROTH: Did they stop serving her or ask her to leave the bar?

PINSKY: I don`t believe so. No, Jordan, that`s --


ROTH: Right.

PINSKY: But, Meme --

ROTH: Let me ask you something.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

ROTH: Yes, let me ask you one thing, Dr. Drew. If the same bar had taken a woman who looked like she`d been starving herself, looked anorexic, if that woman had tried to dance and been told, no way, we`d all be celebrating the bar for what it was doing. It`s really not that different.

Obesity and overweight, I can`t -- I have not seen this woman, but the description was that her stomach maybe looked like she might be pregnant. I really don`t know.

But having excess body fat in the midsection is dangerous, and I think it`s up to a bar to decide how it wants to manage its brand.

PINSKY: Meme --

ROTH: If somebody`s dancing in one of its exhibition places and they don`t feel like that`s up to par, they have that right to decide.

PINSKY: Guys, I have to take a break. Hang on, Meme, thank you. I have to take a break.

Again, people, think about this. This has larger implications than just how we treat heavy people.

Coming up, if you`re raising overweight kids, are you guilty for perpetuating fat discrimination? That`s next. Maybe we`ll try to get a piece of "The View" in here. They talk about --



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We shouldn`t say fat, we should say overweight?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you know, it`s all right for us to call our own selves names, Barbara, but it hurts when someone else calls you a name.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to the article we read this morning, even if you say, boy, my behind got big and your kids are listening, it will affect them. It affects people who may have, you know, issue themselves. So, you`re not allowed to even say, I feel fat, in front of your children.


PINSKY: It`s not about what you`re allowed and not allowed to do. It`s about raising an awareness and having a conversation about the effect of our words and how we objectify one another. It`s kind of like a bullying story in a way, isn`t it?

I`m still here with Carnie and Meme and Jordan. We`re going to go right to the phones.

I have Kenzie in Iowa. Kenzie, go ahead.


Well, I was with Jordan both times this happened. I`d like to say how proud I am of her. I think she`s speaking for a lot of individuals who don`t have the courage to do so themselves at this time. And in this society, a ton of pressure is put on girls to fit a certain look and to be a certain size, and it`s just not natural for some girls. Not everybody can be a perfect little tiny size two.

I just want to thank Jordan for being able to stand up for everyone.

PINSKY: Kenzie, thank you for calling in.

I want to go to Meme.

And, Meme, isn`t that the point of this conversation? And please if you can respond to that.

ROTH: I always hate -- I always hate when people do that. Oh, not everyone`s meant to be a size two. Whoever says anyone`s meant to be a size two? Unless you`re reading high fashion runway models magazines, that`s about it.

When you go to the news stand and see Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama or the host of other -- Angela Merkel -- it`s not a parade of size twos. And I do think it is a reasonable expectation or a woman to maintain a healthy body weight.

Your body mass index, the weight range per height is roughly 25 pounds. So, yes, it`s reasonable if you eat right and exercise daily to be a healthy weight.

WILSON: The bar told her she was not pretty enough and she looked pregnant. I mean, they were just rude.

ROTH: So what? Carnie, Carnie, she put herself as an unpaid part of the entertainment of a bar. I want to get up there, I want to dance in front of this audience. The audience said no. That`s how it works.

WILSON: The audience didn`t say no.

ROTH: This wasn`t like they said she couldn`t drink. This wasn`t like they said she had to leave. This is the girl who wanted the audience to find her beautiful.

They didn`t find her beautiful. It doesn`t make them nice. It doesn`t make it a good experience. It`s a terrible thing.

It`s about a girl that wanted the audience to find her sexual and attractive and they didn`t find her to be so. That`s their prerogative.


ROTH: It`s the bar`s prerogative to say I don`t want you dancing on the bar.

PINSKY: Ladies --

ROTH: That`s what they said.

PINSKY: Ladies, play nice. Play nice for one second. Meme, I heard your opinion. Thank you.

I want to wrap this up with Jordan, though. We have 20 seconds or so, Jordan. I appreciate you guys for ringing in and having this conversation. Can you put a bow on this for me? What did you hope to do here? About 15, 20 seconds, and have you done it?

RAMOS: I just wanted to get the dialogue started around the issue of size discrimination because we haven`t really talked a lot about it, and I just hope people understand that, yes, obesity is an issue, but we`re human beings, too, and we deserve to be treated with dignity like anybody else.

PINSKY: I think everyone agrees with that point. Although how it comes to life is something that Meme -- Meme, Meme, hang on, you`re great.

Carnie, thank you so much.

Of course, Jordan, thank you as well.

Next up, changing topics. Do moms love their kids more than their spouses? What do you think?

Remember, we`re taking calls. We`ll talk to wives and husbands on both sides of this issue -- 855-DRDREW5. Be right back.



PINSKY (voice-over): Who do you love more? Three-quarters of women say it`s their kids over their husbands. Is one more important than the other? I`m bringing in two moms on opposing sides.

Plus, singer, Carnie Wilson, is here with her opinion. What would you like to ask her? Dial in now at 1-855-DrDrew5. We`re on call live for the hour.


PINSKY (on-camera): OK. Moms out there, who is your number one? Your kid or your husband? asked 3,500 women, do you love your children more than your spouse? Kind of a loaded question. Do you love them more? Seventy-five percent of them say yes. Question is, is this surprising?

Joining me in the studio is Heather Spohr. She`s been married five years, has a two-year-old daughter, and agrees with the women who say they love their children more. Now, Casey Mullins, married 11 years, has two daughters, and she said -- there she is -- she`s more with the 25 percent of moms who do not agree with that statement.

And of course, Carnie Wilson is staying with me. Carnie, we`re changing topics here. I`ll start with you. Who do you love more?

CARNIE WILSON, SINGER & MOTHER: I`m passionate about both, both subjects that we`re covering here.


WILSON: I just feel -- I just feel like it`s a different kind of love, and you really cannot -- I, speaking as a mother of two, I can`t compare that kind of love to anything in the world. Any kind of love or any thing.

PINSKY: And you`re shaking your head, yes, that`s how you feel, too.

HEATHER SPOHR, CONTRIBUTOR, BABBLE.COM: Yes, I absolutely agree. I agree with you when you said it`s a loaded question because it is. It`s comparing conditional love with unconditional love.

PINSKY: Well, and I think also it goes into who would you -- you know, it`s like Sophie`s choice.


PINSKY: Who would you protect more? And I hope you guys would protect your children more.

SPOHR: Absolutely, I would protect my children more. I`ve been in that situation where I`ve had to sort of know if I would choose my child or my -- more specifically my husband has had to be in the decision process, you know, me or our child. I had a high-risk pregnancy.

PINSKY: Oh, my goodness.

SPOHR: And so, it`s something that we`ve really talked about. We`re on the same page. Children first.

PINSKY: And we, as a species, that`s our job is to move the species forward. Get the next generation into adulthood.


PINSKY: So, I think it`s sort of wired into us, but you say no. I don`t have my card on me right now. They couldn`t give any cards. Our printer is busted tonight. So, my other mom, there you are, what`s your name? I`m sorry.


PINSKY: Casey. I`m sorry. Casey, you feel differently.

MULLINS: I don`t feel entirely differently, but I could never say that I love my children more than my husband because my relationship and my ability to be a mother to my children and be the best mother I can be is a lot of it depends on the relationship I have with my husband.

PINSKY: I`m not sure I understood that response. You`re saying that that relationship in terms of forming a family unit is critical for the children, is that what you`re saying?



MULLINS: And I believe that having a good marriage and a strong marriage and my children seeing me put my marriage as something very important is going to give them a good foundation of --

PINSKY: While, Casey, I agree with all that, I would just say, I`ve got a great marriage, great foundation -- thank you, I have my cards now. This is great. Live television is so awesome. But I still want her to put the kids first. That`s why I want her to do that. In fact, I had a stalker once. Hang on. Hold on, Casey. I got to tell a quick story.

And that is, we had a stalker once. She got through the detectives and she goes, they`re talking about harming my kids. I`m not afraid to die. I told the police. The police are like calm down, calm down. Let`s take a call, guys. Tara in Texas. What do you got for us?

TARA, TEXAS: Hi, Dr. Drew. Yes. I`m actually the 25 percent of the poll.

PINSKY: OK. You`re with Casey.

TARA: Yes. I`m a biblical standpoint, though. You know, scripture is throughout the bible talk in-depths about loving both our husbands and our children, but at Matthew 19 4-6, he said, have you never read that he who made them from the beginning made the man a female?

And he said, for this reason, a man should leave his father and his mother and be united firmly, joined in separately to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. My point is that we guide and nurture our children until they grow up, but they leave the home. But the relationships with our husbands are lifelong and until death do we part. And that devotion takes precedence over all things.

PINSKY: OK. All right. So, there`s a scriptural kind of an element to this. Carnie is shaking her head. Go ahead, Carnie.

WILSON: I mean, I understand that that`s more of a religious standpoint, but I just feel like, you know, nothing in the whole world could ever come close to the feelings and the protective, the nature, the instincts.

I mean, I love my husband more than anything, and I also agree with Casey that having that unit, that strong, you know, relationship with your husband makes for a better family in terms of expressing love, showing love, but there`s that -- that natural feeling that you have for your kids that`s quite different than for my husband.


WILSON: It`s a different kind of relationship. One is a partner --

PINSKY: Right.

WILSON: You know?

PINSKY: Yes. That`s what Heather say and you sort of qualified as conditional versus unconditional love. That`s how you understand that. Listen, I know we`re getting into biblical conversations. But, it`s a pretty paternalistic society that that was reflecting back then, too. Let`s remember. Joe in Ohio, what do you got?

JOE, OHIO: Hey, Dr. Drew. How are you doing?


JOE: I`ve been married for 12 years. I have two kids, 10 and seven, two daughters. I love them more than life. But since we`ve had our kids, my sex life with my wife has dwindled dramatically, and especially, since the birth of our second child. I`ve just felt like I`ve become second fiddle.

My wife`s attention, everything is about the kids. And I feel like she loves them more than she loves me.

PINSKY: OK. OK. Now, Joe, I`m going to say -- let me step in here a little bit, and the women are all kind of smiling. Carnie, I see you smiling a little bit. And you`re smiling, I suspect, because you can relate to his wife who`s so consumed with the childbearing and trying to keep a husband nurtured and healthy is really a tall order.

Joe, this is more about your relationship than your wife putting the children first, number one. And number two, there`s a period -- ladies, back me up on this -- there`s a period as parents in early childhood when you got to suck it up a little bit that you`re in kind of survival mode. Carnie says yes, Heather says yes. Do you agree with me on this, Heather?

SPOHR: Yes. Absolutely.

PINSKY: Yes. You`re in that kind of phase right now, I bet. Yes.

SPOHR: With a two-year-old, yes.

PINSKY: Yes. And it`s sad and women -- let me say something for women out there. When men feel rejected like that, it`s actually deeply wounding. They really feel abandoned. It`s much deeper than you -- you feel objectified. They`re coming at you with their energy. I get it.

But it`s actually -- you got to be careful with this with men. They`re more delicate than you`d imagine when it comes to issues like this. Carnie, you agree.

WILSON: Yes. You definitely need to honor your man and make him feel good and not just stop doing the things that, you know, that your husband wants and needs and desires. And I`m not just referring to like sex or anything like that. It`s really about making your husband feel good and that they are wonderful and that you need them and they`re your provider and all that stuff that men need.

But I just think that, you know, there`s, like, a difference between the healthy and the unhealthy of, like, it`s almost like a jealousy. It`s almost like an insecurity.

PINSKY: For men? For men?

WILSON: It`s almost childish in a way.

PINSKY: Well, it could get there. That`s what men --

WILSON: It`s natural.

PINSKY: No, that`s not -- they get narcissistically preoccupied like you love them more than me. I would look into that. Buzz in Canada, what do you got?

BUZZ, CANADA: Hey, Drew. You know, there`s a reason they shut (ph) at women and children first when the Titanic was going down. They`re need to propagate the species. You know, men are just kind expendable. My wife and I talked about this when the story broke.


BUZZ: And she said, you know what, you don`t know what I went through to give them life. Of course, I`m going to pick them. And you know what? I get it. I would do it, too.

And, you know, when I wrote about this online, what really shocked me was the reaction of some of the women when they were trying to defend their 75 percent, saying things like you can always replace a man. And my husband is just an accessory. I think those people are forgetting that parenting is a team sport.

PINSKY: Well, Buzz, that to me sounds sort of going towards cruel and abusive. I mean, that`s -- Casey, you`ve been kind of quiet in all this. Do you agree with me on that?

MULLINS: I -- I`ve written about it as well, and the things that I`ve seen women say about their husbands, it`s -- I understand not everybody`s situation is perfect, but if my husband were to say something about that, that I was expendable or that I was replaceable or that I was an accessory or he was only with me for the good of the children, that would hurt me.


MULLINS: And I can see how that would hurt husbands as well.

PINSKY: Yes. And people, if you`re thinking that way about your husband, I would definitely look into that relationship and your feeling about men. I`m just saying. Salina in Kentucky.

SALINA, KENTUCKY: Yes. Thank you for having Me, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, Salina.

SALINA: I think women tend to love their children more than their husbands because they come from our bodies. We nurture them. Every small thing we want to be a big part of. I`m currently going through a divorce, and this had a large part of it, because their father didn`t want to be as involved in their life.


SALINA: I spent years with the Cub Scout den mothers, doing basketball games, school conferences. And when you don`t have the other parent that wants to continuously do that, that breaks apart the relationship.

PINSKY: Well, and isn`t it interesting how mothers are the ones that inevitably pick up the slack?

SALINA: Right.

PINSKY: And this is a whole other topic which was, dads in America and how we may be falling short a little bit in certain ways. And another topic for another time. But, Heather, Casey, Carnie, thank you for joining us today. It`s been very interesting. Thank you, Salina, for that call as well.

Coming up, a Tennessee man, this is another sort of corollary to that, which a dad story, a Tennessee man with 30 kids wants your tax dollars to help support them. That`s a good dad, right? Well, there are suggestions for the kids and the dad -- that`s from you all when you call in at 855- DrDrew5. We`ll tackle that story.

And then, a wide open on call segment. I`ve got some medical calls that just came in, apparently. We`ll get to that and more after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you intend to keep having children?



HATCHETT: Yes, I`m done. I think I`m done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What made you decide that?

HATCHETT: I didn`t intend to have this many. It just happened.


PINSKY: Well, it said there on the screen that Desmond Hatchett who you`re seeing there had fathered 21 children. I have info that he fathered 30. It gets so many that you hardly can -- it`s 21 plus or minus 9. And with that, with 11 women, and he`s asking the state of Tennessee for help in supporting them.

That`s awesome. I consider people like that sort of a menace to society. Here`s what you`re saying about that. I got Barbara in Florida. Barbara, go ahead.

BARBARA, FLORIDA: I think that this gentleman should be castrated and put in jail. But, I also feel we have to take care of his kids.

PINSKY: We`re stuck taking care of his kids even though he should be taking care of his kids. You`re right. The society is going to pick it up. Taxpayers are going to pick it up.

BARBARA: Of course, somebody has to.

PINSKY: I agree with you, Barbara. Somebody has to or somebody has to help these moms, certainly. And Isn`t that`s what`s unraveling so much our country today? You know, I get just frustrated about this. I mean, can`t we look at these guys as a menace? Are they kind of a menace? Don`t you think, Barbara? Barbara`s gone.

Let me go to Facebook. Debbie says, "If he wants to act like a dog, he should be fixed like a dog." That`s what Barbara said. I`m not advocating vigilante justice and violence.

Linda says, "I think he should work for a sperm bank and get paid for his donations. Since he must have success at making babies, he should get paid for his so-called donations."

Yes. I`m just saying. Let`s, again, ladies and gentlemen, the idea here is try to think about these things. This one guy has affected 11 lives, 11 women`s lives, have been profoundly affected by him. And somewhere between 21 and 30 children are out there that are his and his responsibility, and yet, he`s smiling and carrying on, whatever.

All right. Let`s change topics a little bit. Go to Deborah in Texas. Deborah, what do you got? Deborah?

DEBORAH, TEXAS: I was calling about my hepatitis C and I was trying to see -- I don`t have no answers and I was trying to see if it`s contagious.

PINSKY: Deborah, hepatitis C is one of the more common kinds of hepatitis. There`s hepatic A which is the kind you get when you go down to third world country and it tends to be an acute illness. It can hurt you, but it goes away. You get yellow and you get bad diarrhea and things. Hepatitis B which has been around for a long time. Hepatitis C has been more recently a problem for us because it`s transmitted through IV drug use.

It`s like -- it`s the virus very, very similar hepatitis C to HIV. Very, very similar. There are probably three different what we call genotypes or different gene -- you know, sort of different kinds of that virus. One is more like it caused chronic illness, one is more difficult to heal, and they`re associated with cancer of the liver. And there is treatment.

You should -- I`m sure you can have access to -- excuse me, Medicaid, if you don`t have any insurance. And there are people out there, particularly, university settings that are trying to treat this and eradicate it because it is a problem. And some of the subsets of hepatitis C is actually sexually transmitted as well.

Though, I`ve seen it happen, it`s not very common. It`s not as sexually transmissible as HIV. Do I have Diane out there? She`s still with us? Oh, she hung up. I want to -- I tell you, her question is on my card and it says what`s the difference between dementia and Alzheimer`s? And I thought this is really an important one to address tonight.

Dementia -- because people throw the terms around interchangeably, and dementia is just the broad category of cognitive decline where you start losing your ability to think and reason. You start losing your memory primarily, start losing your ability to take care of yourself, eventually.

Alzheimer`s is one type of dementia. It is a very common type. It is one that we are learning more about. Another common type is called multi- infarct dementia, which is where lot of small strokes develop in the brain. There`s not enough oxygen deliver there, and the brain sort of decays and there can be other sorts of dementias associated with brain injuries of various type.

They`re not all Alzheimer`s. That`s really -- Alzheimer`s has its own set of treatments. All dementias are devastating, though.

Constance in Michigan, what do got have for me?


PINSKY: Hi, Constance.

CONSTANCE: A couple of weeks ago, you made a statement about sexual abuse can lead to love addiction/sex addiction.

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.

CONSTANCE: So, I want to know more about the love addiction. How do you define that? Explain that to me.

PINSKY: All right. Let me refer you to a book, it`s called -- oh, for goodness, it`s called "Facing Love Addiction." That`s what it`s called. And I would suggest you can get it anywhere. Just look it up and get it. Love and sex addiction, in the minute or so I have here, the clearest way I can sort of help you understand it is this.

And this is an important concept for everyone to get in their head is that when awful things happen in childhood, when things that terrorize us from childhood happen, physical abuse, sexual abuse are sort of the paradigms, abandonment.

Something about those experiences, and I`m going to use a biological sort of way of describing it, wires our brain in such a way as to -- this is going to sound kooky, but it`s simply how humans work. Terror gets converted into attraction around the age of puberty. So, we start getting attracted to people and circumstances that really re-enact the traumas all over again.

So we go -- if you`re a young lady and you had an abandoning dad, you were suddenly attracted to unavailable men who, of course, oblige you by abandoning you. And, the interesting part about this, if a really available guy becomes available, you feel uncomfortable with those guys. They feel clingy and uncomfortable.

The closeness is something you`re not accustomed to and doesn`t feel right rather than the longing and a pursuit. And if you were sexually abused, sexual compulsion, oftentimes, (INAUDIBLE), sexual addictions.

There`s a website, You can check out. There`s a lot of information about that. And again, I think it`s called "Facing Love Addiction." Overcoming Love Addiction? "Facing Love Addiction." Pretty sure.

So, I`m going to keep taking your calls and your questions after the break. And that number is 855-DrDrew5. Anything you guys want to talk about, you can talk about it here. So, stay with us.


PINSKY: Back now to your questions and calls. First up, Debbie in New York -- Debbie.

DEBBIE, NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew. Love, love your show.

PINSKY: Thank you, Debbie.

DEBBIE: Thanks for taking my call.

PINSKY: My pleasure.

DEBBIE: I`d like to ask you. I don`t know if it`s kind of a weird question, but how is narcissistic personality disorder diagnosed? Is there different ways that it can be diagnosed?

PINSKY: Yes, there are. Some of it is based on a psychiatrist or psychologist just talking to and assessing that person. They sort of in their head have diagnostic criteria that they`re going through and sort of, you know, checking off in their own mind. But there can actually be formal testing called neuropsychological testing or psychological testing where they can sort of really assess this.

And I actually wrote a book on this called "The Mirror Effect" if people want to read about narcissistic personality disorder. Debbie, is someone in your life have this problem?

DEBBIE: I`m not going to say.

PINSKY: You don`t have to. Somebody with this is affecting you?

DEBBIE: Kind of, but the thing is, the person wasn`t told -- I`m just going to say the person wasn`t told of the diagnosis.

PINSKY: You`re assuming.

DEBBIE: And the person -- that was told to me. And the person went ahead and gave their personal information in their medical records to other people.


DEBBIE: Based on a certain problem.


DEBBIE: And they never knew about the diagnosis and they feel that there probably are legal consequences to it. That`s part of my second question.

PINSKY: All right. That sounds a little more complex than I have time to get into, but let me do explain to people what this narcissistic disorder is. I`ve got -- how much time I got? About a minute or so? So, this is -- it`s a terribly common phenomenon today.

Back in the 1850s, when this first was sort of categorized, there was debate about whether true (ph) narcissistic personality disorder even existed. Today, they`re called cluster "B" disorders, although, that`s all going to be changed, but narcissistic, borderline, anti-social, these disorders all have sort of a narcissistic core to them and they are terribly common and they are the result of trauma in childhood.

And we live in a time now where because of all this trauma and disconnect and lack of adequate nurturing in childhood, people grow up disconnected from their feelings and feelings sort of don`t matter.

I mean, all the stuff you see on television and all the sort of psychobabble it out there, it`s like you just need to fix that, because your feelings don`t matter, because that person`s feelings doesn`t matter.

The fact is, feelings do matter and they are really what we connect to to give us our, really, our most authentic self. And a narcissist doesn`t acknowledge their own feelings. They don`t acknowledge your feelings. So, they "A," in their core feel rather empty and they feel often very much less than, but they seem puffed up because they have to keep that inner core protected.

And, they don`t empathize with feelings very well so it can be very unpleasant to be around these people. So, thank you for that call. There`s a lot more to that story I`m sure as there often is. Many, many people today are affected by narcissism.

A reminder now, HLN`s "Morning Express" will be live from Joplin, Missouri. That`s right. Tomorrow, one year after a tornado claimed 160 lives and destroyed much of that town. And, Robin Meade will have a surprise announcement about a new HLN show that`s debuting in June. Check that out.

And also on our show tomorrow, this is, wow, an alleged pedophile caught on tape trying to lure children away from their parents in a store. Call us -- call us now. We`ll start taking calls on this, by the way, at 855-DrDrew5, the questions and comments. But the really kind of wild thing about this story is we`re going to be talking to people that are claiming that we overprotect our kids.

That, you know, that I think we have a guest coming in here tomorrow who sort of takes kids and puts them out in the park and lets them run free saying we`re all too uptight. Believe me, there are pedophiles like this guy out there, and I see way to much stuff for me to settle down about that particular issue.

So, again, thank you for your calls tonight. Call in right now, 855- DrDrew5 for tomorrow`s show. We`ll see you then.