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Why Do Men Cheat
Aired May 23, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
So, why does your husband turn to other women for sex? My guest says men need variety and you should just accept it. He started a Web site to help people cheat. How quaint.
What would you like to ask this guy? Call 1-855-373-7395.
What about the women? I`m talking to ladies who sleep with married man, including a prostitute. She says -- get this -- she`s helping your marriage by having sex with your husband.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: From perhaps your friend`s husband to powerful men like John Edwards, why do men seem to be the cheaters?
Take a look at this.
PINSKY (voice-over): John Edwards, a high profile politician who took the low road by cheating on his cancer-stricken wife, has he become the poster boy for infidelity. He fathered a child with his mistress while presenting himself as the ultimate family man. Why did he do it?
Brooke Taylor says men cheat because they want intimacy and they`re not getting at home. She is a prostitute at the Nevada`s Bunny Ranch. She claims that half of her clients are, in fact, married. She says the service she provides relieves tension which in turns helps marriages. She`s here and you`ll get a chance to talk directly to her.
Noel Biderman goes even further. Women he says should stop glorifying monogamy. They should de-emphasize sex as a central tenet of marriage and forgive unfaithful spouses who were only doing what comes naturally.
He founded what some call the cheaters` Website, Ashleymadison.com. The site has 14 million members and many are married.
PINSKY: All right. Before we get in this conversation, a couple things. Wednesdays, generally, we`re going to try to do sex and relationships here on this program. It`s something I`ve been addressing 30 years on radio and television. It`s something everyone has concerns about. So, we`re going to try to put a focus on these topics.
Tonight`s episode, you might want to get little kids out of the room. I`m fearful it could get in content I wouldn`t necessarily want young kids exposed to.
And again, these are important topics. Relationships, nowhere else in the interpersonal experience is so much who we are and whatever pathology we have might get acted out.
Joining me Simone Bienne, sex and relationship therapist and my "Loveline" co-host. I also have Noel Biderman from AshleyMadison.com.
Now, Noel, you work with a lot of cheating men and women. I just want -- for starters here, do you have any thoughts on John Edwards?
NOEL BIDERMAN, CEO, ASHLEYMADISON.COM: You know, I think maybe I`m one of the few people out there that might be able to defend John Edwards. I think when you`re removed in place and time from your family, extended family, you have a number of temptations thrust in front of you, many people give in to those.
And so, I think he`s just human like everybody else. So, a lot of celebrities and entertainers, athletes, politicians tend to fall victim to infidelity more often just based on those opportunities and removal from their immediate family in place and time.
PINSKY: All right. I want to go because Simone, I know you have an engine running at a high speed here. I want to go right to calls.
This is Carol in Washington. Go right ahead, Carol.
CAROL, CALLER FROM WASHINGTON: Hi. Thanks, Dr. Drew. I completely disagree with this ridiculousness. I find that people -- people that are married, especially men, and just men. But men need to keep their penises to theirselves if they`re saying they want to marry somebody.
PINSKY: So, Carol, to interrupt you -- you`re saying there`s nothing with getting around, after you made a sacred commitment, it means something, right?
PINSKY: I agree wholeheartedly.
CAROL: In the Webster dictionary, a unity of man and woman, OK? It should be monogamy (INAUDIBLE) monogamy anymore.
PINSKY: I hear you. I know what you.
Noel, what do you think?
BIDERMAN: I think you could challenge that monogamy isn`t really well-negotiated at the outset of a relationship. It`s not something that people tend to talk about truthfully. And so, they find themselves in long term relationships and marriages and there`s nothing they really contemplated.
A great book for your viewers to read would be "The Monogamy Gap" by Dr. Eric Anderson who really does explain the cognizant dissidence where so many men find themselves in this self-fulfilling prophecy of love being, you know, able to carry at the end of the day. It`s just not being true. It ends up being that you are incredibly attracted to so many other people and don`t know what to do with it. You are very stressed. I think your upcoming guest is going to talk about that.
You know, I think this is an eternal story. Infidelity has been around since we`ve been in relationships and it`s not going anywhere.
PINSKY: Simone, you and I know strongly. I`ll let you address this. Go ahead.
SIMONE BIENNE, DR. DREW`S CO-HOST, "LOVELINE": No. I am going to speak up on behalf of women in America and also going to stand up for men, because men don`t want to be this kind of guy. I totally hear you when you say about opportunity. I totally disagree with you when you talk about monogamy.
Most men who are intelligent understand the benefits of monogamy. If we talk about the (INAUDIBLE) basis, the fact is men pee in toilets. They can also be trained to be faithful and every single man I have come across who have been unfaithful hates himself for it.
Men I know want to be monogamous. And if they have, it`s not to say that we can`t find other people attractive. But this is about impulse control, you know?
PINSKY: And it`s about the richness of a relationship that gets diminished when people cheat.
Andy in Georgia, what do you have for me?
ANDY, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I love your show.
PINSKY: Thank you.
ANDY: I`m just wondering -- do you think there is an innate genetic component, I`m speaking from a Darwinian procreation standpoint that compels men to cheat and makes it almost unnatural for them to maintain monogamous relationships.
PINSKY: Let me -- Simone, I let you answer that. One aspect of that, I address that by saying if you look at every health parameter that you can measure on a male, they`re enhanced by monogamy. Life expectancy, probability of certain illnesses, happiness, every measure you can come up with, monogamy enhances that.
Monogamy -- it has a healthiness to it. It has to be maintained. It has to be nurtured. When you diminish it, you injure it and you decrease the probability that you`re going to get everything you need from it.
Now, in terms of there being some sort of genetic element here -- yes, of course, if we were just out -- still, 10 million years ago, we were out in the bush -- yes, look at the way other primates behave. There`s no doubt in that environment when our life expectancy would be not out of childhood and once out of childhood, maybe 20 years at the most, yes.
Then in terms of advancing our genes through time, yes, a genetic push for that.
A woman has a massive investment in every sexual encounter. It`s potentially 18 years providing for or at least risking her life. You got to remember that throughout history, 20 percent to 50 percent of women would be expected to die in child birth.
So, we live in a different time now. Antibiotics have unhinged us from this. The hormonal contraceptives and unhinged us from our biology.
So, to talk about evolution and biology, I think it`s somewhat misplaced.
I`m going to go to Virginia in Virginia. What have you got?
VIRGINIA, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Good evening, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Virginia.
VIRGINIA: Asking a wife to learn how to deal with her husband`s infidelity to me is like asking a wife to learn to live in a marriage without trust. Like a foundation to a house.
PINSKY: So, Virginia, you can`t feel safe. You can`t feel safe if someone`s intimate sort of emotional life is being taken somewhere else.
Simone, you agree with that?
BIENNE: Yes, absolutely, Virginia. You made such a good point. Because actually, if you go into a monogamous relationship, you have trust, you trust in each other, you have faith in each other, that actually you`re going to respect each other.
You still, you know, look at some of these attractive man or woman. But it`s the sacred union, whether you`re religious or not, that is what is important. I loved Dr. Drew`s point about men who are in happy marriages live longer!
PINSKY: Not only that, when everyone is a young screwball, have at it, don`t make any sacred commitments to anybody -- you know, I`ll talk to you about the consequences of that on a different call "Loveline" for that where we talk about the biological and emotional consequences now.
But once you make a sacred commitment, don`t make that commitment if you don`t want to. That`s fine.
Tara in Texas, real quick, what have you got?
TARA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
I have a comment and kind of a question. My comment is that I did -- my marriage has survived an infidelity. We`ve been married four years and two years ago, my husband made an unthinkable mistake. And, you know, it kind of really made us both look at ourselves and realize how did we get here, and try to build our marriage from the beginning. It blessed our marriage, you know, and taught me forgiveness and changed our marriage for the better. I don`t know if that happens for everybody.
But, I just -- a lot of your guests are trying to excuse the behavior as just something men do. But when you think about why men cheat, the core reason typically is depression or egos or sense of control. You know, these are deep psychological traits. Why do we keep excusing the behavior as something they should do when we should say, look, we really need to treat you and care for you and nurture you through this issue because it`s causing you to do things that hurt people.
PINSKY: Tara, you bring us great points. I see Simone vigorously shaking her head.
I`m going to allow you to tell about her clinical experience with this particular issue. I`m going to give Noel to respond to you before we go to break. Go ahead, Noel.
All of you after the break.
BIDERMAN: You know, I think what`s really important here is there is a psychographic at play. I don`t think we should be telling your viewers that somehow it`s a negative one. That somehow these people are acting abnormally. The majority of people will be unfaithful at one point or another in their lives, the majority. That`s important to hear.
And not necessarily doing it because of some sort of emotional short many coming. Sometimes, they`re doing it because of a pure biological sexual desire. That might be looking for something different than their partner can give them.
For example, married men who want to have same sex experience. Their partner can`t all of a sudden become that same sex thing, but that is a real drive for millions of men. It`s hard to explain. That isn`t necessarily psychological. That`s a lot more biological from my privilege.
PINSKY: All right. We could argue that particular point all day.
Next up, I`ve got Brook Taylor, a legal prostitute. And she`s here to tell you the sex she has with your husband is going to save your marriage. And Simone is going to address her experience with the issues Tara brought up first.
Be right back.
PINSKY: Welcome. A reminder, we`re taking your calls live at 855- DRDREW5.
And we`re talking about people who cheat. I want to remind you but the reason we`re doing this study is couple-fold. One is, listen, isn`t one of the big reasons we need healthy families so we can raise healthy children and for families to be healthy, you primary relationship has to be nurtured and healthy.
And I will tell you, if you cheat, that relationship takes a body shot, it doesn`t work that way. If you don`t want to get married, don`t have kids, fantastic, have at it. But this is important. And not only that, in my experience, you will probably bear me up on this, happiness. In terms of -- I`m a physician. I deal with people at the end of life.
When you`re trying to understand the meaning of life, they`ll always come to the same place, important relationships and the time they spent and intimacy that they experienced is what created real meaning and happiness.
Studies show that worldwide, one in 10 men have paid for the services of a prostitute. So, we`re going to will look why married men go in search of extramarital sex in this manner.
My experience is mostly sex addicts do this. We`ll talk about it.
Before we bring our guests in -- Simone, we were talking to Tara before the break. She brought up the fact sometimes after an episode of cheating is sort of unearthed, the relationship can get through it but it can be better. You`ve had that experience many times with patients.
BIENNE: Yes. And what is so beautiful to see is when it happens, what happens is -- because you`re keeping your eyes on the relationship, it means that you can suddenly learn about yourself. You kind of go through like a therapy in the couple therapy room, you learn not to act out, deal with your emotions.
PINSKY: There was something going wrong that caused the man to act out, something contributed in the relationship.
BIENNE: With men, they`re not taught to have emotion, but it`s OK to express themselves. It`s OK to deal with any kind of anxiety.
PINSKY: Here, things like Ashley Madison tell them, hey, it`s OK to have an affair, that would solve all your problems.
BIENNE: What upsets me about that, the message given to American families, because Dr. Drew, you and I both know this passes down to generation. At what point does this stop?
PINSKY: We`re going to talk to another person that has a point of view. Her name is Brook Taylor. She`s a legal prostitute who works at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch in Carson, Nevada.
Now, Brooke, you can ring in on this. I understand about half your clients are married, is that right?
BROOKE TAYLOR, LEGAL PROSTITUTE: Yes. I would say half the clients that come to the Bunny Ranch are married.
PINSKY: What do you learn about these guys frequenting the ranch?
TAYLOR: I learn that they love their wives and a lot of times they just want variety, something new. They`re not really looking for long term affairs. It`s just sort of assisted personal pleasure.
PINSKY: Oh, what a relief. They`re not looking for a long term relationship, just sex. Let`s take some calls.
Got to Jessica in Utah, what have you got, Jessica?
JESSICA, CALLER FROM UTAH: Hey, Dr. Drew. I am actually with a married man. His situation is so different because they`ve been together so long. And now, it`s just like her friends, her family, her life. And - -
PINSKY: Wait. Jessica, wait. You`re having an affair with a married man and you are believing the lies that he feeds you about how awful his wife is? Is that what we`re saying here?
JESSICA: Yes. It`s like, when did it become all about her? If it`s all about her and never about him, then I can understand why these guys are stepping out.
PINSKY: Hey, Jessica, Simone and I go into rooms and close the door and hear from the couples. Believe me, when you hear from the wife, it`s all about him, right? Wouldn`t you say?
There`s equally shared dysfunction in a relationship like that.
BIENNE: The thing is what you`ve got to look out for is --
TAYLOR: I have to agree.
BIENNE: -- when you`re in a relationship with a married man, that doesn`t say a lot for your self-esteem. That makes me sad, how can it be a fulfilling relationship? You`re always going to be somebody`s second best as a mistress.
PINSKY: Brooke, you agree with that, right?
TAYLOR: I do agree. A lot of men I see are really there to have their ego stroked. They really just want a boost in confidence more than anything else. I mean, they`re narcissistic at best.
PINSKY: Well, that`s a pretty honest appraisal.
All right. Let`s talk to Sheila in Virginia.
TAYLOR: It`s true. They don`t always come in for sex. Sometimes the excitement, I`m not going to roll my eyes when they tell the same story their wife has heard 30 times, 40 times, 50 times before. A lot of times it is making them feel good because, let`s face it, there`s stress at home and in relationships and sometimes they want to feel special, too.
PINSKY: But, Brooke, you`re going to pretend to listen to them and pretend to make them feel special, be honest.
TAYLOR: Absolutely. It`s absolutely superficial.
TAYLOR: It is absolutely superficial. They`re seeking something in me they really should be seeking in their relationship, I`ll agree with that. But it is what it is.
PINSKY: I don`t have time really for another call. You want to address that quickly because I thought she was saying something really good.
TAYLOR: I really am grateful for you, Brooke, saying that. What men need to do acting out, need to act in their relationship and get into couple therapy where you can make each other feel special and appreciate each other. You don`t need to act out. Sorry if I talked you out of a job, Brooke.
PINSKY: There are plenty of guys that will give her a job. She does bring up an interesting point. There are guys that cheat because they are sociopaths. They don`t appreciate that people have feelings. It is just about their drives and needs.
There are guys that are narcissistic and feel entitled and have trouble with emotions -- emotions that don`t have meaning to them. When they have a need feel entitled acting out in special ways, and they are sex addicts, injured in childhood and act out in all kinds of ways hurtful to themselves and other people.
More of your calls after this, 855-373-7395. Stay with us.
PINSKY: We have been talking about men and particularly married men and their seeming need to stray. And let`s fair, we haven`t zeroed in on women very much. A lot of women cheat, but they tend to cheat for different reason. They tend to cheat when their emotional needs aren`t getting met in their primary relationship.
We outlined some of the reasons men cheated before the break.
My "Loveline" co-host, Simone Bienne is here. Also, got Brooke Taylor, she`s a legal prostitute at Nevada`s Moonlight Bunny Ranch.
Now, Brooke, do you ever feel guilty. You said you were with a lot of married guys. Do you feel guilty sort of participating in their acting out behaviors?
TAYLOR: No, simply because there is a definitive line between emotional and physical relationship between us. I feel -- I find some comfort at least knowing that they have enough respect for their wife to come where they`re going to be safe and not take home a disease or have someone really interfering with their relationship.
And, ultimately, I`m not the one that made the commitment -- responsibility lies on them, not me.
PINSKY: You are thinking like a woman when you talk like that. Women get much more upset about emotional cheating, intimate cheating emotionally than physical cheating. You are saying yes, Brooke?
TAYLOR: Absolutely. Absolutely.
But I have learned every relationship is different. And so, really, if they`ve spoken and discussed what they define as cheating, sometimes their husband visiting me doesn`t fall within that realm. So, it really all depends on each relationship. It`s all about communication.
PINSKY: All right. We`re not talking about telling everybody how to live their life. We`re talking about what`s healthy and not and Simone and I are worried about families here.
Jessica in Utah, you have a question.
JESSICA, CALLER FROM UTAH: Yes. My thing is why aren`t we doing it about women? Women cheat just as much. I have friends who got into a marriage and then she ended up cheating on a guy.
And with my situation, it -- for him, it seems he thinks it`s all about her. She says in the marriage room, it`s not all about -- in the counseling room, it`s not all about her, it`s all about him. But when do we start switching the roles and start telling the women that they can`t cheat as well? They do it just as much.
PINSKY: I think -- you know, I don`t disagree with that at all. I think Simone disagrees with it. We`re saying it`s for a different reason.
And again, in this day and age, when 10 percent of the population has major mental health issues -- 60 million Americans every year have significant mental health issue, abuse of various type is on an absolute pandemic status in this country and families are destroyed, very few people know how to have good stable intimacies and tend to feel uncomfortable in close relationships and again, act out.
Sheila in Virginia, very quick -- Sheila.
SHEILA, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thank you for taking my call.
PINSKY: Sure thing.
SHEILA: I just think this is wrong. I think if you`re going to be married, you should stay with the person you`re married to. Cheating is cheating.
And to go out and pay for sex, it`s just not right.
PINSKY: You`re taking issue with the very word "cheating" itself.
Simone, I`ll let you wrap this up. We got 20 seconds.
BIENNE: I think what we need to do is if you`re in a relationship, you feel something isn`t right, then go and get professional help because you can have, as Tara said, a better relationship because of it.
Don`t act out, don`t lose your integrity. Be the man or woman you are and protect your family.
PINSKY: Don`t be in a rush to get married when you`re younger. This business of a mid-life crisis makes me sick. People should have been doing that when they were kids.
Thank you, Brooke. Thank you, Simone.
Next up, a 12-year-old girl posts a questionable photo online and her mother gives a public and controversial punishment. You`ll find out what that was and the mom actually joins me after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): A 12-year-old girl posts a photo of herself with a bottle of vodka online. It was a joke, but wait until you hear her mom`s dead serious punishment.
RESHONDA TATE BILLINGSLEY, USED FACEBOOK TO PUNISH DAUGHTER: If social media is where you want to show out, then social media will be where you get shown out.
PINSKY: Some say the mother went too far. Others are applauding her. What do you think? She is with me live explaining her actions and taking your calls. Call 1-855-373-7395.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): I think we all understand that the number of children on social media is exploding. Well, what also has exploded, sometimes, is the temper of parents. They say inappropriate posts deserve an equally public punishment, but are these parents going too far?
An online punishment doled out by ReShonda Tate Billingsley recently sparked debate. Now, ReShonda, your daughter is -- there she is. There`s her daughter with the punishment, I guess. We`re seeing her on the screen now. She`s 12 years old, and let`s see. Put that up again. I want to actually read that for people.
She`s 12 years old. We`re going to put it back up -- OK. "Since I want to post photos of me holding liquor." Also, she`s posting a picture of herself pretending to drink, "I`m obviously not ready for social media and will be taking a hiatus until I learn what I should and should not post. Bye-bye. Frowny face. So, ReShonda tell me about what happened and what you decided to do about it?
BILLINGSLEY: Well, my daughter has an Instagram account, and I am one of those parents that regularly monitor it. And about 20 minutes after she posted this photo that she thought was just her being cute, if you will, I discovered it, and she`d gone to bed by that time.
So, when she woke up, I had something for her. If she wanted to show out on social media, then I was going to show her out.
PINSKY: Did she cave to your demands or was it a struggle?
BILLINGSLEY: Oh, well, no, my child is not going to struggle too much, but she did have a meltdown. She cried and begged, and she asked for any type of alternative punishment, anything but that.
Because I had her hold the sign, and then, I posted it on her Instagram account, and then, I put it on my personal fan page as a warning to other parents to just monitor what`s going on with their kids` social media.
PINSKY: ReShonda, the more I hear this story, the more I like what you did, I got to tell you. And the idea -- what really gets me is the idea that a 12-year-old is so shattered by being disconnected from her social media account. Thank God you did that. It sounds like a kind of little addiction you broke for her.
BILLINGSLEY: Absolutely, because a lot of people are saying, well, the bottle of liquor was unopened. She took it and it just said, "wish I could drink this." And some people are saying that I was being too severe, but for me, you have to nip it in the bug (ph), because it`s a bottle of unopened liquor today, four years from now, it could be a two-piece bikini.
It could be anything. And so, I had to send a strong message to her, because we had talked about this. This wasn`t something I just did off the top of my head. We had really sat down and talked about what was appropriate and what wasn`t. And my problem was, she didn`t see anything wrong with it.
PINSKY: Yes, right. You`re really bringing up some interesting points here. I want to hear what our viewers have to say in just a second, but the fact is with a 12-year-old, you can talk all day but talk doesn`t really change behavior very much. And so, your active intervention was probably quite good. Let`s talk to Diane. She`s in Canada. Diane, what do you like to say on this topic?
DIANE, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Diane.
DIANE: I believe humiliation of anyone, especially a child no matter what they have done is absolutely wrong and considered emotional abuse.
PINSKY: OK. Let me interrupt you. So, you think this was humiliating for the child to post -- to put a picture up there.
PINSKY: And I would agree with you.
DIANE: I`ve seen the picture. I`ve seen the picture. The girl is crying.
PINSKY: Yes. But -- I`m going to let ReShonda answer that, but I wonder if it was crying because she was being broken from her sort of, I want to call it an addiction to Facebook or to social media. ReShonda, what do you say?
BILLINGSLEY: Absolutely. And who cares if she was crying? That`s the part that parent parents -- we don`t want our children to cry, we don`t want to embarrass our children. I`ve never seen a tombstone that said here lies Suzy, she died from embarrassment.
PINSKY: Let`s talk to Zach in Pennsylvania. Zach, what do you got for me?
ZACH, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
ZACH: I have a question for you. Given the social media craze has taken over in a very short time, relative to the evolution of our brain --
ZACH: -- specifically the frontal lobes, may this reliance or you call it the addiction on such networks be actually physically stunting the development of these brain regions?
PINSKY: Are you involved in neurobiology or psychology, yourself?
ZACH: Yes. I`m a grad student. Third year grad student, clinical psych.
PINSKY: Are people talking about this as a possibility? Because back when I looked into this, they were talking about pseudointimacy and how this sort of sense of this qua si intimacy that people develop online was really not substituting for the real intimacy of two bodies in proximity that humans need to be healthy.
Is that the kind of thing you mean or you talking more in terms of impulse control and executive function?
ZACH: Exactly. Well, that`s a consequence of it. My other remark would be that, you know, exactly that. What are the consequences and look who`s particularly at risk? It`s the preteens and the adolescence because that part of their brain is still developing.
PINSKY: You bet you. You know it as well as I do. And they are responding to those arousal systems. And that`s what they find gratifying and that`s what ReShonda was responding to is that her daughter was starting to go down that path abusing arousal, alcohol or bikini and stripper pole comes later, perhaps, and you didn`t want to see that. That`s for sure, right?
BILLINGSLEY: Absolutely. And it is my job to parent. It is not my job to be her friend. It is not my job to make sure that she`s not upset or embarrassed. I want to raise a well-rounded productive member of society. And the way I do that is instilling values in her now and letting her know that, yes, there was something very wrong with that picture even if you weren`t drinking.
PINSKY: Shawn in Florida, you have a comment?
SHAWN, FLORIDA: Yes. I totally agree with what the mother did. I believe that the punishment matches the negative behavior the child showed.
PINSKY: How old are you, Shawn?
SHAWN: I`m 42.
PINSKY: You`re 42. You sound younger. Do people always tell you that?
SHAWN: Yes. They always tell me that. And I have a five-year-old son. And, each individual child has to have their own -- the parents have to have their own disciplines for each child.
SHAWN: One punishment is not going to happen -- do very well for another child.
PINSKY: So, you`re saying -- right. So, you`re saying ReShonda sort of fit this punishment not only to this circumstance but also to this child.
SHAWN: Yes. She knows her daughter. She knows what`s important to her daughter and she worked with that.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. Denise in Ohio, you have a comment as well?
DENISE ABBOT, USED FACEBOOK TO PUNISH DAUGHTER: Yes. My daughter was -- I put her picture on Facebook back in April and received a lot of criticism for doing what I did. And I can`t agree with her more that social media is here. It`s here to stay.
And you have to teach your child to use the tools that they`re going to be faced with for the rest of, you know, the rest of their lives. And, if you pretend --
PINSKY: Denise, I have a question. First of all, I hope this worked. Did it work what you did for your daughter? I guess, we`re looking at a picture of that right now what you posted.
ABBOT: It did work. It did.
PINSKY: And then, my other question is, who is taking issue with all this? The more I hear about it, the more it feels sort of OK to me. Who is attacking you for having done so?
ABBOT: People that don`t know me. It was more through the media and through different online comments and web posts and that, that there was a lot of criticism about it, about humiliating her.
PINSKY: I see. Humiliation is the issue. I get it.
ABBOT: You have to put yourself, your child in that position, if they`re not humiliated and they don`t feel that humiliation for what they`re doing, they`re not going to have empathy in the future. You have to teach them that it is not OK to do that. You can`t be their friend.
ABBOT: You have to guide them and show them what`s appropriate and what`s not.
PINSKY: And I think ReShonda agrees with that. Let me take a quick call from Shanda in Texas. Shanda, you got something for me?
SHANDA, TEXAS: Yes, I do, Dr. Drew. How are you doing?
PINSKY: Good. Thank you, Shanda.
SHANDA: My question is, why not? Why not punish them? Why not punish her like that? Because you know what? If she wouldn`t have punished her, guess what, they would have something to say about the little girl being on the media with the alcohol bottle if she wouldn`t have punished her. Don`t you think so?
PINSKY: I think Shanda, that`s a great point. You can`t -- when it comes to -- when it comes to being an adult on social media, you can`t win. ReShonda would have been criticized if she let the child with the bottle stay on the social media and she`s being criticized for taking sort of action that seems appropriate. ReShonda, I`ll let you have the last word here.
BILLINGSLEY: You know, Dr. Drew, that actually used to would bother me, but we`re talking about my child here. And at the end of the day, I would rather you talk about me now than talk about my child later.
PINSKY: There you go. Thank you letting us tell your story, and thank you for the calls, everybody.
Now, who will play -- we`re switching gears, again. Who`s going to play Casey Anthony in the TV movie about her? We will tell you and take your calls about, maybe, who you would stick in that role, so to speak. Stick around more calls and anything you want to talk about? No topic taboo like we like to say. 855-DrDrew5 call in with any topic you`d like me to address, I will do so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You would think you know me? You don`t know me.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I`m not in control over any of this, because I don`t know what the hell is going on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have no idea what I would do if I could do that stuff.
ANTHONY: We`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Familiar footage dropped in there. Does the name Holly Deveaux ring a bell? She`s a Canadian actress who`s been cast to play Casey Anthony in the upcoming TV movie. What do you guys think about that? Maybe you, guys, have your own idea who it ought to be. I`ve got Christian in South Carolina. What do you think?
CHRISTIAN, SOUTH CAROLINA: My question is I think that Holly Mary Combs should play the acts (ph) of Casey Anthony.
PINSKY: What`s the name? Holly --
CHRISTIAN: Holly Mary Combs. She played on "Charm."
PINSKY: Oh, -- somebody -- is that her back here behind me? There`s the one that`s going to play the part. I guess, that`s the only one we`ve got here. Holly Mary Combs in "Charm." If you say so, Christian. I`m just sort of stunned that we`re already getting to a television movie. Here we are.
This child has, you know, barely been mourned, and people are still outraged, and we`re going to stir this hornet`s nest up again with a TV movie and who knows what the sort of -- the point of view is going to be of that film. Everyone is going to have a lot of heavy feelings about it.
All right. I want to take general calls. Enough Casey stuff. Let`s go to Candice in Connecticut -- Candice.
CANDICE, CONNECTICUT: I am flattered to talk to you. I am such a fan of yours, but I am not thrilled with how you just handled the last caller.
PINSKY: The one about Casey Anthony?
CANDICE: No. About the mother humiliating her child.
PINSKY: Tell me. Go ahead.
CANDICE: Well, I think that you are -- you -- she`s too smug. You seemed a little bit smug. And I think, how can she support -- how can you support her using the same medium to humiliate her child that she used to - -
CANDICE: You know?
PINSKY: Yes. The world "humiliation" got toss around, and that was the part that I was taking issue with. I don`t believe the child was crying tears of having been humiliated. I believe the child was angry that she was having something taken away from her that she needed to have taken away from her.
Candice, I actually do agree with you. Humiliation is not a good thing. It is potentially abusive. I just didn`t think that was active humiliation. So, we kind of disagree on that. And of course, I didn`t see what happened with that child. You might be right, in which case, mea culpa.
CANDICE: (INAUDIBLE) I just wonder if you would do the same thing to your child.
PINSKY: I might not either. I might not -- I wouldn`t have thought about it, frankly, and that`s why I was sort of being intrigued by the whole thing. And, you know, I don`t have that strong an opinion about it where I would argue with you and I get what you`re saying. So, I appreciate you bringing it up.
Let`s go to Diane in Wisconsin. Diane, what do you got?
DIANE, WISCONSIN: Hi, Dr. Drew.
DIANE: I want to know how do I get over an obsession of revenge toward my ex-boyfriend.
PINSKY: Oh, boy!
DIANE: It`s been over eight years.
PINSKY: Eight years and you`re still obsessed?
DIANE: Yes. I call his phone, his girlfriend`s phone, his wife`s phone. I probably called it over 40,000 time and hang it up, harassed him, harassed her, and put me in a depression.
PINSKY: Diane, Diane, this is not about him. I mean, I guess we could talk about how severe the breakup was, but it was eight years ago. I only have a minute to respond to you. This is a very complicated issue, but let`s frame what you`re talking about. This is stalking behavior. You are stalking your ex-boyfriend. Let`s call it what it is, right? Do you understand that?
DIANE: Yes, sir. They did a warn on me one time.
PINSKY: For stalking?
DIANE: Well, harassing communication.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s call it what it is. It`s stalking behavior. I`m going to give you one piece of advice that may help you. Well, first of all, have you had professional help?
DIANE: No, but I think I need it.
PINSKY: I think you do, too, before you hurt yourself or somebody else. But I will --
DIANE: Before I hurt them. You know, I threatened them, all that, even dreamed about being in prison.
PINSKY: Well, look, that`s not going to help anybody. I`m going to give you a book you can read. It`s called "Facing Love Addiction." This is love addiction, when people -- one way of conceptualizing this kind of thing, how people end up so severely love addicted that they end up stalking that individual. This is about you, not about them. Stalking is not OK, honey. But --
DIANE: I know that.
PINSKY: I get that you`re in a lot of pain. I get that it`s been sort of a pre-occupying element in your life. Please get that book. Please get professional help. I have to take a call that relates to HLN`s 2012 election coverage. Our country votes. This now is Jon in California. Jon, what is up?
JON, CALIFORNIA: Hey, Dr. Drew.
JON: I got a question about John Edwards.
JON: So, when a politician cheats on his wife, that says more about his character integrity than his rhetoric. Doesn`t that really matter when we`re electing someone?
PINSKY: Jon, I agree with that statement wholeheartedly. I think that`s -- particularly, you know, ever since Watergate, I`ve noticed that we really don`t like cover-ups or deception. And when somebody presents themselves a certain way and they turn out to be quite different than that, particularly something that calls their character into question, we react rather violently as a country, as a populous. And I think reasonably so.
I mean, you know, this issue came up with President Clinton, if you remember. They took issue with his integrity. Look, integrity is about living a certain way. And when you live a certain kind of life and live a certain way, people are happier, their instincts are better, and it is really something that we expect.
We reasonably expect of our leaders, that they live the kind of life that they tell us that`s consistent with who they say they are as a leader.
Next, I`m taking more of your calls. 1-855-DrDrew5, so stay with me.
PINSKY: Let`s get right back into your calls. This is June in Pennsylvania -- June.
JUNE, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. drew.
PINSKY: Hi, June.
JUNE: Thank you for taking my call.
PINSKY: My pleasure.
JUNE: My question is, the flesh eating bacteria --
JUNE: Where does it start? Where does it come from?
PINSKY: It exists in the environment. The most common cost of the strep-eating bacteria is called group A streptococcus. You know, the same thing that causes a sore throat, basically, the same thing that can cause a flesh-eating bacteria if it gets in to some open wound in your skin and gets right into the right plain of your skin.
That`s kind of deep into what`s called the fascia. So, we call it necrotizing fasciitis. Necrotizing meaning it`s killing the tissue. It`s eating the tissue dying -- tissue`s dying. And fasciitis meaning inflammation of the fascia which is just beneath the skin, sort of the thick layer that overlies muscle.
And I`ve seen it even developed. I`ve seen a number of episodes of necrotizing fasciitis. I`ve even seen it from a hangnail, believe it or not. Do you have some concern about it?
JUNE: I was just curious because I`ve seen three people been victims of it.
JUNE: And that`s scary.
PINSKY: It`s bizarre, though, -- what makes me angry is the press puts that one poor girl in Georgia on the front page, like oh, boy, everybody, it`s an epidemic. The reason -- let`s be fair here. The reason the press put her on the front page, she`s very attractive and it`s a very dramatic story. That`s why it`s there.
Now, this stuff -- certain, the subtypes of these group A streps can kill you within a few hours. It is devastating, you can lose limbs. You can lose parts of your body. If you want to see something horrible, look at Fournier`s gangrene, which is part of a necrotizing fasciitis at the pelvic region (ph).
These are horrible -- make no mistake about it, but they happen a lot. And the most -- many, many thousands of cases don`t even get into the press, and there are many hundreds out there right now that people are suffering that we`re not talking about tonight. Talking to Amber in Texas. Amber, what`s up?
AMBER, TEXAS: Yes, sir. I was trying to see if taking time apart in a relationship works?
PINSKY: If taking a time apart. You know, it depends how old you are. I mean, if you`re 17 or you`re 20, yes, you need to go out and explore who you are, that makes sense. If you`re 40 and you`re married, I would say no.
AMBER: I`m 28 and I have a three-year-old daughter. We`ve been together for six years.
PINSKY: I would say no. If you`re really going to make this thing work on behalf of that child, taking time off is not going to be what will likely work. What will likely work is if you go get some professional help and sit in the room and work things out.
I`ve seen horrible situations end out great. Thank you for that call. I`m going to take a quick lead to Natalie. Natalie, I`ve got less than about 30 seconds or so. What do you got for me?
NATALIE, KANSAS: My step-father sexually assaulted me in February and I had a partner for a year and a half and since that happened, I`ve had problems being intimate with him.
PINSKY: Of course. Natalie, of course. Of course. Not only was there an attempted rape, and I don`t want to go into detail how bad it got, this was somebody that you trusted. This is somebody in your family. This is profound. Of course, it affects your ability to feel safe, particularly, around a male, any male.
This is something that can be really worked out well in a women`s group or in a professional setting if you get some help for this. I mean, was this reported to the law enforcement?
NATALIE: Yes, sir.
PINSKY: OK. So, there may be resources through law enforcement that you can get access to, to, you know, people who`ve been through traumatic - - victims of crime and traumatic experiences. There may be resources and money available to help you gain access to these things, but don`t let it just fester because it will affect your relationships.
Thank you all for calling. I do appreciate it. We are here, of course, taking your calls every night at 855-DrDrew5. I`ll be here tomorrow, taking your calls. Thank you for calling tonight, and thank you for watching. I`ll see you next time.