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Accused Killer Ex Speaks Out; Interview with La Toya Jackson
Aired June 7, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Now, everyone is talking about the horrifying crime allegedly committed by Luka Magnotta. He`s accused of murdering a man, dismembering the body, having sex with body parts and videotaping the whole thing.
Tonight, his former girlfriend speaks out on her relationship with him and whether or not she ever suspected he could go this far when he said he`d do anything to be famous.
And later, as we approach the third anniversary of Michael Jackson`s death, his sister, La Toya, is here. And she`s ready to take your questions about her brother, her rocky relationship with the famous Jackson family, and what`s going on in her life now?
Call us, 1-855-DRDREW5.
And let`s get started.
PINSKY: Well, tonight, we have an exclusive interview with a former lover of a notorious accused murderer. She, herself, is a transgender male to female woman who shared with me her shocking account of her relationship with alleged cannibal Luka Magnotta.
Now, Nina Arsenault recently spoke out to a publication out in the United Kingdom. And then we contacted her. After speaking to her, we tried to confirm how it was that she and Luka knew each other. We were able to locate acquaintances of Nina`s who confirm that she knew them -- she knew him, they were together at one time.
So, I want you to watch this video and I want you to call us at 855- DRDREW5. I will answer questions about this video after you watch my interview with Nina.
So, it`s kind of -- let me remind you again, this is a guy who walked coolly into a room, slit his boyfriend`s throat, dismembered him, had sex with the body parts and then put the whole thing up on the Internet. Allegedly he did al this, although people have seen the video, allegedly he did it, whatever.
But you want to hear what she has to say. It`s very interesting. I want to hear what you have to say about her comments.
So I began by asking her what she thought of Luka when she first met him.
NINA ARSENAULT, LUKA MAGNOTTA`S FORMER GIRLFRIEND: I knew he was young and he was a stripper, and he was in a sort of tough world, if you will, the underbelly of society. So, I always thought he was trying to act tough. But, yes, he would joke about -- he made really bad jokes about, say, drowning kittens or wanting to hurt people.
PINSKY: I want to point out to my viewers that we, of course, can`t confirm nor deny any f Nina`s allegations or whether or not you guys were involved.
I have a suspicion drugs may have played a significant role here. Do you share that thought with me?
ARSENAULT: Absolutely. Absolutely. I hadn`t seen him in over a decade, but I suspect the person I knew back then was not capable of doing these heinous crimes.
PINSKY: And, Nina, I although I can`t, again, I have to remind our viewers I can`t confirm or deny even that he uses drugs. But I as a physician agree with you completely there just -- it just smacks of that. It`s so over the top. It, you know --
PINSKY: Is hard to -- even a psychopathic killer, which he had some of those qualities, as you say, he would talk about damaging animals and actually did end up hurting animals. That, too, may have come later in conjunction with the drugs.
What made you come out now? Why our program, why today? What motivated you to come out?
ARSENAULT: I`ve already turned down over 200 interview requests internationally. But I`d seen your show. I thought you had integrity. I liked you. I liked the way you spoke to people.
PINSKY: OK. Are we OK so far?
ARSENAULT: I like that your show -- yes, doing OK so far. Yes.
PINSKY: OK. Good. Is there anything you want people to know about this? Is there anything we should take away from this? This story?
ARSENAULT: Well, I think it raises a lot of very disturbing questions that we don`t address in society. That is that there is a so-called underbelly in society. There`s people who have experienced great trauma. They often don`t have the privilege of education nor -- they don`t have an ability to make the same amount of money. And yet they are interacting with us all the time.
And some of them are ambitious. Some of them want to be seen, to be heard. And I certainly don`t think that it`s -- although I think Luka`s actions obviously are very extreme. I don`t think it`s an extreme desire for people in our culture to want to be famous.
Something that`s particularly macabre to me about Luka`s situation is he did these things to show them. And it seems like the situation is really emblematic, it`s a kind of serial killing or a kind of sociopathy that`s emblematic of our time. It`s not just done, it`s disseminated through social networking. It`s blogged about by the very person who did it.
He`s able to create his own celebrity around it.
ARSENAULT: He`s able to frame the conversation.
PINSKY: And in a new way -- I mean, in a way serial killers always had a special, you know, romance where there would be stories written about them and whatnot. But now, hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of viewers actually consume his acts. What he did.
Nina, I think you`re really on to something.
So was he always someone who talked a lot about fame?
ARSENAULT: Well, he said he would do anything to be famous. I didn`t think he meant killing someone, I thought he meant doing -- being a porn star, you know, exploiting his sex life.
PINSKY: And did --
ARSENAULT: I think he did that for a long time then I think he needed to do something new. I watched the video because before I did this interview a friend of mine said, you should watch the video just to understand the gravitas of the situation.
I couldn`t watch the whole thing. I flipped through moments of it. I`m struck by the fact that I don`t believe the sex acts.
I don`t find them convincing. Even though someone was killed, I think he`s performing the sociopath. I think he`s performing the role of a psychopath because he wanted to be legendary in any way that he could be. I don`t think that he gets off on killing. I think he`s getting off on playing the part of a killer.
PINSKY: So he`s appealing to the people that would get off on things like this by providing them with -- it`s exploitative pornography, right? He doesn`t have to be into it to do it even though he did it. It`s crazy. It`s just really crazy.
ARSENAULT: I think it`s his sort of heightened version of a porn star.
ARSENAULT: I suspect -- this is all my conjecture --
ARSENAULT: -- from what I knew from someone 10 years ago.
PINSKY: Understood. Absolutely.
ARSENAULT: He looks so disconnected from the sexual acts on the video. I think he took a lot of drugs, disassociated himself from the experience, so he could decapitate someone, so he could mutilate their body, and then so he could actually simulate having sex with them. But I actually don`t think -- I don`t think it`s a real sex act. I think he`s a copycat psychopath.
PINSKY: Well, whatever he is, it`s very disturbing. Her interview is very interesting. I want to get to your calls and comments right now.
Let me go out to Sean in Nebraska.
Sean, what do you got?
SEAN, CALLER FROM NEBRASKA: Thanks for having me on, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: My pleasure, Sean. What`s up?
SEAN: Basically, I want -- my question is, do you think he might have been sexually abused at a very young age?
SEAN: Also possibly traumatic event in his life or something? And how come we haven`t heard anything about his mother and his father? Or possibly his home life as a child?
PINSKY: OK. Interesting question, Sean. I did hear from Nina that she said he used to speak about his parents in very derogatory terms. She did allude to there having been major, major trauma in her childhood.
But I tell you what, the quality he had, with the suffocation of the kittens and then the cold dispassionate way he killed has a quality of psychopath, and psychopaths are sort of born, not made. So, he might have had trauma and had a problem in his brain both and had drug addiction. It`s a pretty nasty combination.
I want to go out to Karen in New York. Karen, you got something?
KAREN, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew. I`m so excited to be on. Thank you for having me.
PINSKY: Excited to have you, Karen. What do you got?
KAREN: I`m a little confused because how does a person get to the point where they can actually murder somebody but then, again, take, like, get into their mind and take the life of them --
KAREN: -- and then dismember them and then have intercourse with them. Like, where do they go in their head that they can actually go through all that?
PINSKY: Here`s the great news, Karen. You`re a normal person and a normal person shouldn`t be able to get their head around that. I hope you can`t get your head around it.
I mean, when I hear stories like this, it becomes mind bending, doesn`t it?
KAREN: Yes. It`s disgusting.
PINSKY: Yes. It`s disgusting, but you can`t get your head around it. That`s how you know their brain isn`t working right. That`s how you know there is a -- you know, when people`s -- you`re going to see -- we`re going to talk about a story in a little while with bath salts and all these kind of cannibalistic kind of behaviors people are getting into. You know that`s a brain that isn`t working right. That`s an agitated or excited delirium that somebody`s brain is disconnected from reality and has no insight.
This kind of dispassionate killing, you know, again, as I mentioned with the previous caller is associated with brain stuff, brain problems that seem to come out from birth -- in addition to trauma. I`m glad you don`t understand it, OK? Are you still there, Karen?
KAREN: I am. It`s just -- it`s appalling and it`s very frightening that he was carrying on this way for so long and nobody picked up on it.
PINSKY: Well, that`s right. Here`s the deal. Kiss your kids at night, keep them protected, be very vigilant about the people that are around and realize that some people are not who they appear to be. We`re going to keep that conversation going.
Next up, the girlfriend of the man dubbed the Miami zombie speaks out. She says -- this is the guy that ate the face of the guy, you know, in Miami. This may be a bath salts incident.
She said she had no idea her boyfriend was capable of such a gruesome crime and even allowed him to be around her children. What`s it like learning your boyfriend is accused of not just killing, but cannibalism?
Call us at 1-855-DRDREW5.
PINSKY: There is yet another shocking story out there we`re talking about tonight. A man named Rudy Eugene who allegedly ate 75 percent of a man`s face.
Joining us, Eugene`s girlfriend, Yovanka Bryant, and her lawyer, Gloria Allred.
Yovanka, I have to tell you something, my staff, I`m laughing at them, but you are emblematic of a concern I think every woman out there has -- which is particularly with the proliferation of online dating and people, you know, moving around in the world today. How does anybody know the guy they`re dating isn`t capable of awful things? What was he like when you used to know him?
YOVANKA BRYANT, BOYFRIEND ALLEGEDLY ATE MAN`S FACE: Well, he was always sweet to me. I understand the public view him in a different light, but that`s not who I know. He was very sweet and very affectionate to me and my children. I don`t know of him being ever aggressive or anything to me. So --
PINSKY: So this must have been an absolute shock to you to hear that something like this happened with him. How do you make sense of it?
BRYANT: I can`t make sense of it. I`m still in a state of shock, actually. I just -- there was no warning signs whatsoever. None.
PINSKY: How long did you guys date?
BRYANT: We had dated approximately four months.
PINSKY: And how was he -- there he is. How was he around your kids?
BRYANT: Very hands-on with them. He always called my daughter princess. My son, he always called him a king. So he was very loving and, like, supportive toward them. Never, ever raised his voice, not one time, in front of them. Nothing -- like I said, no warning signs whatsoever.
PINSKY: Gloria, how do we make sense of this?
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Well, the only thing that may make sense is if, in fact, the toxicology report that is not yet out comes back and says that somehow there was some kind of drug in his system that caused him to do what he did -- which is eat 75 percent of the face of a homeless man in the sidewalk.
PINSKY: It`s the only thing that makes sense, right?
PINSKY: Or a brain tumor or something when they do the autopsy.
ALLRED: Well, something because -- I mean, Yovanka was with him frequently. For the four months they were together she said every day they were together watching the ministries on television, talking about the Bible, doing private Bible studies with each other, that she had no warning at all. In fact, if she had any such warning, she would never have allowed him to be around her kids.
PINSKY: Of course. Let`s go to calls. Sydnee in Florida. Sydnee?
SYDNEE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Yes, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Sydnee, go right ahead.
SYNDEE: I was wondering -- well, I wanted to comment and say that bath salts have been being sold for about 2 1/2 to 3 years now.
SYNDEE: I was wondering if prolonged use is the problem, and I know it`s just alleged --
PINSKY: Yes, Sydnee, let me answer your question. We don`t know -- I suspect it is, frankly. We don`t know whether it`s that or the fact they change the molecule slightly to stay ahead of regulators.
Remember, I mean, the reason people use these substances is so they don`t get detected on urine toxicology. It`s people who want to use drugs at work and don`t want to get detected. That`s the primary motivation for this. As such, the people that manufacture these things are staying just ahead of the people that build the mechanisms for detecting and regulating these things.
So it may be something new in the compound or may be the fact people have been using it long enough we`re starting to see these horrible things.
Pauline in Canada. Pauline? Pauline? Well, I`m going to --
ALLRED: There`s also some speculation, Dr. Drew, and I don`t know if it`s true, that somehow he ingested synthetic marijuana.
ALLRED: That was very, very strong and might have affected his brain. Now, Yovanka can speak to the fact that when she was with him that she never saw him do any kind of drugs. She only saw him use marijuana, smoke a marijuana cigarette once at a party but other than that, no alcohol, no drugs.
Isn`t that right, Yovanka?
BRYANT: That`s correct.
PINSKY: It makes it even scarier, though, somebody can be a drug abuser and not even an addict and have these horrible effects from drugs.
Yovanka, again, you represent something to a lot of young women out there which is how do you protect yourself from some guy that you think you know? Do you doubt men now that you`ve seen this happen? Do you, you know, think twice before you go on a date? Is it affecting you that way?
BRYANT: Most definitely. I will always love Rudy. I will always love what he stood for, but most definitely being careful. That`s the lesson learned.
Like I said, he was never violent toward me, so I really can`t peg him in that light, but you never know.
PINSKY: Let me ask this.
BRYANT: Like I said --
PINSKY: You`re not still with him, but you still have warm affectionate feelings for him? You still sort of love this man in spite of what he did?
BRYANT: Yes, I do. I mean, I`m not trying to justify his actions. I, my heart goes out to the homeless guy that was the victim in this situation. I`m not -- you know, I don`t want to make any excuses for Rudy, like what he did was okay, because it wasn`t.
I just want to, you know, basically let the public know who he was to me. We don`t -- we haven`t gotten the toxicology report back completely. So I guess I will go of with that, but like I said, I still do have warm feelings -- I remember who he was to me. And at the end of the day that`s, you know, that`s what matters to me.
PINSKY: Let`s go quickly, Bill in Utah.
BRYANT: Yes, I do still love him.
PINSKY: OK. Bill, are you there?
BILL, CALLER FROM UTAH: Yes, I am. Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Let`s hear your question real quick. What do you got?
BILL: I just wonder on your first subject you talked about tonight if there`s any comments, or that the guy made about maybe wanting to be a Dahmer copycat type thing.
PINSKY: We didn`t hear anything about that from his girlfriend, the only person I`ve spoken to that actually knew him. Though he was supposedly someone who would do anything to be famous and that`s the thing that`s so disturbing about that particular case.
So, Yovanka and Gloria, stay with me. We`re taking your calls at 855- DRDREW5.
Back after this.
PINSKY: Welcome back.
We are continuing our discussion with Yovanka Bryant and her attorney Gloria Allred. Yovanka`s boyfriend was shot and killed by police after he allegedly ate a man`s face.
Let`s go right back out to callers.
Nancy in Massachusetts -- Nancy.
NANCY, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Nancy.
NANCY: I love you. I`ve been watching you for years.
PINSKY: Thank you.
NANCY: I found it interesting that they had said about abuse. I am in a very, very bad situation where he is schizophrenic and has hurt our dog and he was raped from the time he was 14 until he was almost 20.
PINSKY: And this is your boyfriend, now? This is your -- and this is your boyfriend?
NANCY: Yes. And, Dr. Drew, it`s really not about me. I`m just trying to, like, share it with someone because it`s a horrible situation that I can`t get out of. I`ve done everything I can as far as resources and everything.
NANCY: And basically --
PINSKY: Well, listen, you called the right place. I have Gloria Allred here. This is -- to me, this is one of your sort of specialties which is empowering a woman and we just finished talking about how some of these dangerous people are just mentally ill, which this generally clearly is.
How do we reconcile this for Nancy?
ALLRED: Right, are you saying you`re seeking some assistance for him?
NANCY: I mean, they grow up to be bigger bullies. You know?
ALLRED: Yes, OK.
NANCY: Always negative and putting you down. Everything`s your fault. You know what I mean?
PINSKY: We get it.
NANCY: Obviously he needs more help. He needs more help, needs more support, constant therapy, needs constant monitoring. And that`s apparently what he needs. It`s good you`re reaching out to try to get some help for him.
PINSKY: You, Nancy, have got to have support. You cannot do this alone.
Even if I were a treating physician with a case like this, I`d have a team around me to work with. You have to that support. You have to have the support with you to withstand this because alone, it`s going to end in a very bad place. Gloria and I deal with this an awful lot.
ALLRED: He may be a danger to himself and to others.
PINSKY: That`s right. Please be careful.
Yovanka, I`m glad you didn`t have to deal with this particular issue. You, yourself, mad this man, although it`s hard to reconcile for all of us, at a time in his life when he sounds like he was a normal person.
He certainly -- you know, the fact he selected you to be with tells me something. He didn`t exploit you. He had a real relationship with you. You seem like a lovely person. That tells us he was in pretty good shape at that time.
But something happened. His brain was not working right. Yes.
And thank you for joining us.
Gloria, I appreciate you being here.
ALLRED: Thank you, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you for bringing your lovely client here with us as well.
Now, next up, La Toya Jackson knows all about troubled relationships. She`s here to answer your questions when we come back. Call us, 855- DRDREW5.
Now, for more on any of our stories, go to HLN.com/DrDrew.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: My brother, the legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25th, 2009, at 2:26 p.m. It is believed he suffered cardiac arrest in his home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Really, it`s just hard to believe that in a few weeks, we`ll be marking the third anniversary of Michael Jackson`s death.
His sister, La Toya Jackson, is with me now. She`s the author of best-selling book "Starting Over." It chronicles her marriage to manager Jack Gordon, which was a volatile relationship. That`s the kindest thing, I guess, I can say.
LA TOYA JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: Yes.
PINSKY: And you know, women that get in those situations feel very trapped. It`s just they don`t know how to get out. It`s astonishing that you found the courage to do so. Where did you get the courage to leave Jack Gordon?
JACKSON: Dr. Drew, you`re absolutely right. You get in these relationships, and you don`t know how to get out. You don`t know what to do. You don`t know who to call or who to tell.
PINSKY: And you feel responsible. You feel like it`s your fault.
JACKSON: They make you feel that way. They make you feel as if you`ve done something wrong, you`re not listening to them, what they want you to do, and that dependency of them saying if you don`t do it, I will do this. I will kill you or I will kill your brother. Anything like that.
Or if you don`t do it, you have to say what I`m telling you to say. Things of that nature. I think what they do - people, to me, of that nature are weak people.
PINSKY: Yes. They`re not well. They`re not well.
JACKSON: No, they`re weak people. And the fact of the matter is no one should be at liberty to even put their hands on anyone.
PINSKY: Where did you get the whatever it was that you found to get out?
JACKSON: To get out of there. I -- I couldn`t take it anymore. It was just -- it had gone so far, and I was so nervous the entire time. And, I did whatever he wanted me to do to protect my family from him and from anything that he told me that he would do.
PINSKY: Let me ask something.
JACKSON: So, the last straw was --
PINSKY: The last straw was what? The last straw is when people get out. It`s like I fear I`m going to die or I`m going to do something horrible.
JACKSON: He told me he would kill me. He promised me that. And so I said, you know what, you`re just going to have to kill me now because I`m not doing pornography.
PINSKY: Oh, he wanted you to get a porn.
JACKSON: He wanted me to do pornography.
PINSKY: I noticed, I did read to your book, and you did say that on the book.
JACKSON: Yes. He wanted me to do pornography. And I said you`ve done everything else with me, and this is awful, and I`m not doing it, because I was Jehovah Witness, and he just took me left. And that`s what they do. They find these people that are, I guess, innocent, religious, and they feel that they can control.
I had no knowledge of people of that nature. I was a strict witness. And, my mother couldn`t go with me to Japan, and she asked my father. He wasn`t able to go. So, they said, OK, we`ll let this guy go, Jack Gordon. And they sent him. When I got to Japan, he took my passport and said, you`re not going back.
PINSKY: Is your story something for other women to learn from?
JACKSON: Oh, absolutely. Are you kidding? What I went through just the turmoil and the ups and down of being with him and the nervousness and making me feel that I`m doing something wrong, making me feel that something`s wrong with me, hitting and telling me, I never touched you, what makes you think I did that?
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness.
JACKSON: Meanwhile, you have a black eye, and you`re crying, you`re swollen and says, you need help. Let me get you help, and things of that nature, and making me feel like everything I did was my fault.
And being on your show like this, a show like this sitting there, if I twitched to the side, I knew, when he says, let`s go, I knew I was going to get another beating when I got home, because he accused me of, you`re switching your weight, because you`re trying to send a message to your family to let them know that you`re in pain.
PINSKY: Oh, he was paranoid, too. Oh, my goodness.
JACKSON: Because he would beat me before I would go on a show to make me say and do certain things.
PINSKY: OK. Here`s what I want to do, La Toya. I want to give my viewers a chance to talk to you. That gets important. So, let`s go out to Tracy in Nevada. Tracy, what do you got for us?
TRACY, NEVADA: Hi. I just wanted to ask La Toya, because I have met her family, Mrs. Jackson and the kids. I just want to know how are they doing since Michael`s passing and if any one of the kids is taking it harder?
JACKSON: You know, they`re doing very, very well. I am so proud of Michael`s kids. They`re very resilient.
PINSKY: I guess, Paris is going to be on Oprah tomorrow, right?
JACKSON: Yes, she is.
PINSKY: She seemed very poised.
JACKSON: I think that`s tomorrow or Sunday, one of these days.
JACKSON: You know, she`s -- they`re lovely kids, and they`re coming along so well. And I`m very proud of them. I`m very happy for them.
PINSKY: Who from the families involved -- there are some pictures of them now. They`re great looking kids.
JACKSON: Yes, they`re sweet.
PINSKY: And, who`s sort of the primary caretaker in their lives now?
JACKSON: It`s my mother.
JACKSON: My mother. She`s right there with them every day. And, as a matter of fact, I just got off the phone with Prince just before I came here. And, he`s such a wonderful kid. He`s doing so great in school. I`m so proud of him. He`s straight As.
PINSKY: Tracy, was there other questions you had?
TRACY: Nope, that`s it. I just want to -- I met the kids in Las Vegas, and they were visiting a relative who La Toya would know, and I just wanted to make sure that they were doing good.
JACKSON: They are. Thank you very much for asking.
TRACY: Thank you.
PINSKY: Well done, Tracy. Who we got next up, guys? This is Melissa, I guess, we`re going to next? Melissa, are you there?
MELISSA: Yes, I am.
PINSKY: Hey, there you are. What`s up?
MELISSA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I love your show.
PINSKY: Thanks, Melissa.
MELISSA: Hi, La Toya. I want to let you know that it is an honor and a privilege to speak to any Jackson family member. I loved your brother as a person and an entertainer, and I still love him to this day and miss him. And I wanted to find out what inspired you to write the book.
JACKSON: I couldn`t take it any longer, and I felt if I`ve gone through this -- because everybody always asked me, you`re La Toya Jackson, how could you possibly go through this? And I want them to know, when you`re going through abuse, abuse has no racial barriers, no social barriers.
It affects every and anybody all over the world, and people have to understand that it doesn`t matter if you`re rich or poor, doesn`t matter if you`re famous or not, people are just cruel people. And I want them to know that you can do something about it. You don`t have to endure it as long as I did.
I wish I were stronger at that particular time, but I wasn`t. For some odd reason, something just clicked in my head and I was able to just get out.
PINSKY: Wish we could bottle that because so many women, they stay tied up with these men. They still idealize, and they still feel responsible for them.
JACKSON: Dr. Drew, you know as well as I do, it`s very, very difficult to do, because --
PINSKY: It`s impossible. Yes. I know.
JACKSON: They`re controlling you. They control your thoughts. They brainwash you.
PINSKY: And a lot of them get stuck in this sort of -- in that category of women who love too much. They idealize the guy and they feel responsible, and women who are caretakers. Let`s go to Jane in California. Jane, what do you got for any?
JANE, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Jane.
JANE: Hi, La Toya.
JANE: I want to ask a question. First, I really respect what you`re doing now. But remember at the press conference in the early 1990s when you alleged that Michael was a child molester, and I wondered how you were able to make amends with him after that? I think if I were Michael, I`m not sure if I could ever forgive that.
PINSKY: And there was a whole story around that, too. That`s another Jack Gordon production.
JACKSON: Yes. When you read the book, you`ll understand it clearly. My mother, she knew exactly what was going on. My brother, Michael, when I finally got a chance to talk to him about it, and he said, you don`t even have to tell me. He said, I know you, you`re my sister, I love you. I know your heart.
I knew it was him, because Michael kept telling me, you got to get away from him, but he goes, he`s going to kill you if you don`t. I`m thinking, well, he`s going to kill you if -- you know, I couldn`t tell him that.
PINSKY: Well, you were afraid he was going to kill Michael?
JACKSON: Well, he would tell me that. And I knew what he had done. I knew his past. I knew his records. I knew who he associated with, who he knew. He knew all the guys, the whole bit. And so, I was trying to protect him. But no, wait, Michael was very fine with that.
He goes, I know you. I know your heart. I know it`s not you. I said, I would never -- I love you. He goes, no, I love you more. We just hugged, and we cried together about this.
PINSKY: La Toya, I`m looking at a Facebook question that I`m going to read. I don`t want you to feel -- I don`t want you to feel in any way ambushed by this question. It`s a rough one. And if you don`t want to answer it, please don`t. It says, "Do you feel that you`re attracted to abusers because of what you deal with in your childhood? Did your childhood have something to do with it?"
In other words, was there something that led you -- we call these love maps where you something about your fittedness (ph) with your relationships.
JACKSON: I know. You had mentioned that before. Absolutely not. And the reason being is because he was put into my life. I did not choose him.
JACKSON: Gordon, Jack Gordon, yes. He was put into my life.
PINSKY: You weren`t attracted to him or anything.
JACKSON: No. And he married me without my permission. That`s in the book as well. I didn`t know I was getting married. And he took me off the states -- this is that control factor. And I ran out about five or six times and then the justice of the peace says, you know what, I`m tired of this. I`m going to pronounce you man and wife.
JACKSON: And he promised me that -- yes.
PINSKY: Where was this?
JACKSON: This was in Nevada. This was in Nevada. And I was on stage. He took me off stage. And he said, get in the car, pick a security, and I said, which one? He says just pick one. I said what is it for? He says, just go. And then, we drove up to the curb, went up to the justice of the peace. And there it was.
But after six months, he says you can get an annulment. Six months came. I happened to be in Italy, and I said, it`s six months, can I get an annulment? And, he took my hand and he banged it against the table in the hotel suite and says, I own you, don`t you know this? I own you. I own you. You will never get away from me. And I was in pure shock.
PINSKY: It`s a horrible, horrible story.
JACKSON: Oh, it is.
PINSKY: I want people to go ahead and get the book. It is "La Toya Jackson: Starting Over." There it is, the whole screen of it. Hopefully, it will be an inspirational tale for any women that are in a Stockholm-like syndrome where they`re identifying with their abuser and wake people up, but for the grace of God, La Toya woke up one day and had enough.
And I hope anyone else out there who has any hint of this is sufficiently enlightened by our conversation here tonight and by La Toya`s book to get out.
JACKSON: Get out as quick and fast as you can. There are callers out there, there are abuse centers that you can go to. There are 800 numbers. There`s a national abuse center that you can call. And everybody is willing to help you. I want you women to know that those centers are there for a reason.
They`re there. And those shelters are there to help you. They`re free. Please go to them and get away. They will help you all the way.
PINSKY: There you go. With that said, La Toya, I want to say thank you.
JACKSON: Thank you.
PINSKY: Good luck with the book. Thank you for coming back and visiting us.
And next up, I`m going to be addressing anything you guys want to talk about, about sex, drugs, medical issues, anything. Call me now, 855- DrDrew5, and we will be back after this.
PINSKY: And welcome back. Get this story, a dad is accused of forcing shots of liquor on his underage sons as punishment. The father has been charged with two felony counts of child abuse.
Terry, he`s angry-looking dude. Terry on Facebook says, "You can be predisposed to alcoholism if it runs in the family and all it takes to trigger that is your first drink." Good point.
Brooke writes, "That was just stupid. Now, what is the father going to do if he catches them doing drugs or something else?" Also, very interesting. We`re going to, what, overdose them with heroin?
Now to the phones, Laura in North Carolina. Laura, what do you got for me?
LAURA, NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Laura.
LAURA: How are you?
PINSKY: I`m good. Thanks for calling.
LAURA: I just want to tell you, you`re a silver fox and I`ve been watching you for years.
PINSKY: Thank you.
LAURA: I just wanted to say, we have restrictions and guidelines for voting and driving?
PINSKY: By the way, Laura, hold on a second. Josh Duhamel was just walking through the studio here and I felt like chopped liver about an hour ago. So, thank you for building my ego up a little bit. But go ahead, Laura, you were going to say we have standards? Go ahead.
LAURA: We have restrictions and guidelines for voting and driving and I just wish we could regarding mating.
LAURA: The bottom line to me is, some people just shouldn`t be allowed to reproduce.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, Laura --
LAURA: If they were my (ph) children, I would cut his penis off with a grated knife.
PINSKY: OK. Well, I`m not so sure I can sign off on that kind of vigilantism, but I understand your feelings. And, I`ll just say that, you know, when Adam Carolla and I used to be on "Loveline" together, we would just become frustrated. We only say, God, the big problem in our country is too many screwed up people having screwed up kids.
You got to really be ready to parent. Thanks, Laura. I feel much better now. And I`ve got Marcia in Washington. Marcia, what do you got for me?
MARCIA, WASHINGTON: Yes. I`ve been a long time fan, Dr. Drew.
MARCIA: Basically, you know, I`ve had two friends die of alcohol poisoning.
MARCIA: And it`s like, how would he (ph) felt if they died? He wants to teach the kids a lesson, how about taking an order and open AA meeting pr something --
PINSKY: Of course.
MARCIA: -- what drinking can do.
PINSKY: Of course. Or taking them to see alcoholic and all the damage it can do and this disease and alcoholism. Do I hear a baby in the background there? Do you have a child?
MARCIA: Yes, my niece.
PINSKY: Oh, your niece.
MARCIA: Little three-year-old.
PINSKY: OK. And we would never do something like that with a three- year-old. It`s really stunning what people do to their kids these days, but I like your call for this reason is to remind people that, first of all, alcohol and cigarettes are the most dangerous drugs we interact with in terms of cost to our health, cost to loss of wages.
They have dramatic impact on our body. Alcohol is the one drug that really can cause cancer and damage and affects our immune system, our livers. The withdrawal from alcohol can be fatal. We don`t think about alcohol as such a dangerous drug.
And people can overdose on it as you are saying. And something to keep in mind, alcohol is a dangerous drug just like any other.
Susan in Florida. Hey, Susan.
SUSAN, FLORIDA: Hello, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: What`s up, Susan?
SUSAN: Hi. I agree, silver fox.
PINSKY: This is a good show tonight.
PINSKY: What`s happening?
SUSAN: My statement is about, I have two adult sons. One`s 28 and one`s 40.
SUSAN: And both of them smoke marijuana daily.
SUSAN: And now, there`s a new drug in Florida that they`re using that it`s called 420. It`s supposed to be legal marijuana. And they say that them doing marijuana is better than drinking, although, they both drink, too.
SUSAN: And the younger one is even hooked on crack.
PINSKY: Oh, well --
SUSAN: And there`s really -- there`s nothing that I can do to try to straighten them out. He`s got a very, very dangerous lifestyle.
SUSAN: You know?
SUSAN: And it`s -- to try to get through to them to make them understand.
SUSAN: You know? It`s -- I don`t know how to get through to them.
PINSKY: OK. Susan, let me do this. Let me just hold your call across the break. This is a very complicated and very serious thing you`re describing here with your sons, so stick with me. We`re going to continue the calls at 373-7395, 855-DrDrew5. Give me your calls. Anything you want to talk about. That`s next.
PINSKY: We`re back. More of your calls. And I was speaking with Susan before the break. Now, Susan had two adult sons both addicted to pot, alcohol, and one crack and using spice. It sounds like an awful situation. And Susan, your concern was you couldn`t get through to them to help them understand that they were destroying their lives. Is that right?
SUSAN: That`s correct. And, it`s so frustrating because they qualify everything as if it`s a normal thing to do.
PINSKY: Listen, and Susan, I got to tell you something. When I started doing television, I really was motivated to do TV because of the HIV epidemic. I was actually motivated to do radio back then, because I saw radio as a medium to sort of reach young people and to help them understand about relationships and sex and HIV.
I can`t believe this late in my career what I`m talking about, the addiction in our country is just spectacular. So, in a way, they`re kind of right. It`s almost normative amongst their peers. They don`t even understand that they`re in trouble.
PINSKY: But here`s the kind of simple things you can do. One is you got to take care of yourself. As they say, you got to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on anybody else. You need to go to a program called Al-Anon, you know, to get a sponsor there, and you need to start working steps with your sponsor. You will change the quality of the interaction with your sons as a result of that program.
It`s really good. I promise you`ll like it. It`s called Al-Anon. You go there. You get yourself somebody to support you. That`s number one. The number two is, you drop consequences wherever you can on your son.
You support their recovery, but you have nothing to do with their disease, including, you know, legal consequences if it has to be, financial consequences, whatever it has to be, you just got to keep bringing it down so something breaks through their denial, because as you see, they`re going to drift into more and more trouble.
And my goodness, crack is a horrible drug. And this is going to end in a bad way. Susan, good luck. I`m sorry, I got to go to another caller. I believe my next caller is Carolyn in Oklahoma -- Carolyn.
CAROLYN, OKLAHOMA: Yes, Dr. Drew.
CAROLYN: I was married for four and a half years to a very abusive ex-husband who would blind me for his cheating episodes.
PINSKY: Whoa, whoa, he would blind you?
CAROLYN: Yes. Then, the terrible thing about it is that he cheated on a woman with herpes.
PINSKY: Listen, if he`s out there cheating, Carolyn, eventually, he`s going to come across something, which reminds me -- this is something worth saying. I`m going to hold you, Carolyn, across the break. We`ll address your question.
But you guys, there`s a gonorrhea out there that is resistant to multiple antibiotics. It is a serious deal. Sexually transmitted diseases are becoming quite a problem again. It`s not just HIV. It`s good old- fashioned gonorrhea that we can`t eliminate because the bacteria shares their DNA with other bacteria, and they become resistant to antibiotics.
It`s a big deal. You should read about it. We`re taking your calls. 855-DrDrew5. We`re going to continue with Carolyn after the break. Be right back.
PINSKY: All right. Now, welcome back. I was talking to Carolyn. Carolyn, I just want to make a quick point to you before I go to the next call, and that is, if your husband`s out there cheating, of course, he`s going to get an STD if he`s not religiously using a condom. And sometimes, guys that are into cheating aren`t into condoms. I`m just saying.
But the real thing here is, bottom line, if you`re involved with somebody who`s cheating, do not stand for that. La Toya should be an inspiration for that. It`s abusive at that point. You either get out or you get help.
I will tell you, I`ve seen a lot of situations where cheating develops, if it`s something new, and when the two people get help, couples therapy, things can end up in a very good place because something is terribly wrong.
Go to Matt in Michigan -- Matt.
MATT, MICHIGAN: Hey, Dr. Drew. I am grateful and honored to be able to talk to you. I`m a recovering alcoholic, and I`m working the program thoroughly to the best of my ability.
MATT: And, my parents are also alcoholics, but they are blind to the fact of that notion. Since he owns a couple of businesses, my father, per se, they`re doing well, they drive fancy cars, their home`s paid in full.
PINSKY: Matt -- right. How long have you been sober?
MATT: I`ve been sober for six months by the grace of God and AA.
PINSKY: OK. Here`s two -- couple of things I will say. Do not attempt to bring this up to them until you`ve been sober a year, number one.
PINSKY: Number two -- take care of yourself first. Number two, ask your sponsor when you should start going to Al-Anon, because it sounds you got some of those issues going on. And then, number three, when you do bring it up, make sure you`ve got a lot of support behind you and be very matter of fact about it.
And if they express righteous indignation or any pushback, you`ve got to say, look, come on. I`m here, I love you, I`m worried about you, I`m here to help. Come on, don`t be ridiculous.
MATT: My sponsor, and he said it is not your problem, it is their problem.
PINSKY: Then, don`t do it yet. That`s what he`s telling you. But when you have a program in Al-Anon, which comes later in recovery, all addicts have this kind of thing, but it`s something to be dealt with later, and it`s not your issue at this time. Thanks, Matt, for the call.
Is there another caller? I`ve got one more caller. Dakota, is that what I have?
DAKOTA, TENNESSEE: Yes.
PINSKY: Dakota in Tennessee. Go ahead, Dakota. What do you got? Real quick.
DAKOTA: Yes. My boyfriend has a friend that when it comes down between me and him, he likes to change the plans we`ve had.
PINSKY: On behalf of your friends.
DAKOTA: On behalf of his friends.
DAKOTA: Like last week --
PINSKY: I`ve got 20 seconds, Dakota. Let me paraphrase. The idea is the friends take priority over you, right?
PINSKY: How long have you been with this guy?
DAKOTA: Almost a year and a half.
PINSKY: Sure you want to stay with this guy?
DAKOTA: Yes. We`ve talked about getting married and having kids the next few years.
PINSKY: Before that happens, you got to reach a better compromise on what you`re doing with nurturing your relationship and prioritizing you in his life.
Thank you for watching. Got to take a break. See you next time. Nancy Grace begins right now.