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Sandusky "Victim 1" Testifies; Interview With Sen. Bob Corker; Vatican Reprimands Nuns; Fathers and "Daughters"; Gold Medal Gymnast's Dark Secrets

Aired June 13, 2012 - 08:00   ET



SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to STARTING POINT, everybody. Our STARTING POINT this morning, the gut-wrenching, stomach-turning testimony in the Jerry Sandusky sex abuse trial. A former Penn State assistant coach who claims he saw Sandusky sodomizing a young boy tells jurors, "It was more than my brain could handle."

JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon about to settle into the hot seat on Capitol Hill to explain to the Senate Banking Committee how his bank lost more than $2 billion.

And American nuns are accused of being radical feminists. They head to the Vatican to make their case. And it looks like butting heads with the Catholic Church is far from over for these nuns.

It's Wednesday, June 13th. And STARTING POINT begins right now.


O'BRIEN: "Crazy in Love" -- that's Margaret's playlist this morning.


O'BRIEN: Again, you and I, yes.

Roland Martin, the host of --


O'BRIEN: I know, it's you're making dance moves on the set of the STARTING POINT dance team.

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Drop it like it's hot.

O'BRIEN: Margaret Hoover is he author of "American individualism" and Will Cain is a columnist from, and that is the background by Beyonce, "Crazy in Love."

MARTIN: She's from Houston. H-town girl.

O'BRIEN: Is that on your list?

MARTIN: She's on mine too. She's from Houston. I have to support my home girl.

O'BRIEN: It's good.

All right. Our STARTING POINT this morning: in just about an hour, Jerry Sandusky is going to go face to face with another one of his accusers. Day three of the child sex abuse trial is now underway. Victim one whose accusations of sexual abuse first triggered the criminal investigation gave really emotional testimony yesterday as he described in graphic detail alleged abuse from the former Penn State assistant football coach.

Another star witness, the former assistant coach Mike McQueary, also took the stand. He talked about seeing Sandusky in the shower with a young boy.

A forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Michael Welner, is the chairman of the forensic panel. He's worked on several high profile cases, including the competency hearing for Brian David Mitchell -- you remember, the man who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart.

It's nice to have you with us. Thanks for talking with us.


O'BRIEN: As you read through the testimony and talk to reporters who are actually inside the courtroom, you realize that there are all these red flags at the kid's school. I'm talking about specifically victim one, who's on the stand yesterday, the kid's school. He doesn't want to go off with Jerry Sandusky. The school pushes him to go.

A woman who works at the Hilton Garden Inn said she was told to give him a key to the pool so he could take kids to the pool in the fitness center.

The grandfather of victim one testified there was an argument in the yard about the boy's schedule.

How come everybody misses what in retrospect looks like very clear red flags that something very bad was happening with children?

WELNER: What distinguishes predatory sex offenders is their capacity to roam, not only to get close to somebody, and to engender a sense of trust in the victim, but to then isolate them even before they prey on them sexually. What distinguishes the prominent and the dominant member of the community is that he can groom not just the child, but the entire community.

O'BRIEN: What do you mean by "groom"? They fear him? They respect him? They'll keep their mouth shut?

WELNER: What happens between predator and victim is that sense of engendering trust, filling a need, and then isolating a child before victimization ever takes place. You set the stage. When you're prominent, and everyone is invested in your success, because they want to be close to you, you not only can groom a child, you can groom a community. So that everybody trusts you.

You fill everybody's need. Everybody becomes invested in that relationship. And then you not only exploit the child, but you use the different institutions of the community to set up your victims, to enable the exploitation, and to perpetuate it.

That's not only what Jerry Sandusky has done at Penn State and in high school settings, but anywhere that high has recruited and gone around the United States, has to look very carefully at the access that he's been given, the isolation that he's been afforded, and just how this mechanism, this infrastructure for abuse, which a groomer uses, has been allowed to replicate in other settings.

MARTIN: So basically he creates this charity to help underprivileged kids, that all of a sudden he looks sympathetic. He is a great guy. He's wonderful.

And so people in the community go, oh, look at Jerry, he is a great guy. So he makes them feel comfortable to allow him to then do what he chooses to do.

That's what you mean by grooming?

WELNER: Absolutely. And here's something that we speak about on CNN frequently. What do they say about absolute power? That is corrupts absolutely.

Now, what happens when you combine absolute power of being the biggest person in the smallest pond, and you combine that with being a predatory sexual exploiter, a predatory pedophile -- it corrupts absolutely. And it not only corrupts the person, but it corrupts everyone around them.

O'BRIEN: So I'm going to just throw out a big giant allegedly. Because obviously this entire conversation is what is on trial right now in the courtroom as it's unfolding now.

I want to talk about the love letters, as people describe them. Victim four who was on the stand two days ago showed some letters that he had gotten from Jerry Sandusky. Here's one.

It said, "I know that I have made my share of mistakes. My wish is that you care and have love in your heart. Love never ends."

His own attorney talked about his histrionic personality. What does that mean?

WELNER: Well --

O'BRIEN: Jerry Sandusky's histrionic personality.

WELNER: One doesn't diagnose without examining a patient. But one doesn't diagnose just by looking at letters in isolation. Jerry Sandusky is not on trial because he wrote some letters. Jerry Sandusky is on trial because he sexually violated, allegedly, but he's on trial for sexually violating others.

This isn't about whether he perceives closeness inappropriately of other children. The children are not accusing him of thinking they had a closer relationship. The children are accusing him of sexually assaulting them.

This isn't about his seeking attention. This is about his carrying out anti-social, aggressive, violent acts toward children at the very most, and at the very least, psychologically manipulating them, totally consistent with how grooming happens. It's a manipulation.

And the idea of not only engendering trust, but once the victimization takes place, maintaining control. And that manipulation is by bringing love in.

Look, victimization could never happen in these instances if the children didn't perceive a positive, warm, nurturing relationship to begin with.

That's why as Roland suggested the idea of Second Mile, that's why it becomes so important, because it's a vehicle by which Jerry Sandusky can say, hey, I'm a good man. I'm a decent man. I'm doing -- and then once that's threatened, to bring the love back in as an instrument of control to say, hey, don't stray off the reservation. You're mine because I'm loving and love conquers all and all of this other stuff.

So, you have to see letters in the totality of al of the evidence. And that's what forensic psychiatry is about. It's just if you were to see your internist and you have a cough, your internist wouldn't tell you had pneumonia. It could be related to something completely different.

And so you don't diagnose histrionic personality disorder by reading a letter.

WILL CAIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You're talking about this concept of grooming. For those who are accused of doing things that Jerry Sandusky is accused of doing, the situation, the environment you're talking about for grooming, is that more a consequence of compulsive behavior for the criminal or is that premeditated? Are these kinds of situations, possibly the Second Mile charity he created to create a scenario where he could take advantage of people?

WELNER: Well, that is a fascinating unresolved question, because Jerry Sandusky has never been in a position yet to even acknowledge that he's a pedophile who has carried out these kinds of behaviors.

CAIN: I'm talking about others you've encountered.

WELNER: Well, no. Here's where I'm going. Question is, what came first, the chicken or the egg? Was he a charitable person who was around young people and then came to realize that he had a sexual attraction and then with a level of intimacy --

O'BRIEN: Allegedly.

CAIN: Allegedly.

WELNER: No, again, I'm talking about questions. Was he someone who was around other people and an attraction then unfolded and things became sexualized? And then whatever he was involved in, he just added to? Or was he someone who had this other life apart from his heterosexual, completely unremarkable personal and sexual and marital life who created these kinds of institutions and structures as vehicles to bring people to him quietly?

That's something that at this stage we're not going to address. That's the kind of thing typically done with people who are convicted of crimes such as this, and then in post-conviction settings they have to deal with it in a proper therapeutic setting.

Not one that looks at histrionic personality disorder, but says, look, you have been convicted of pedophilia. You have exploited other children. We need to talk about this deviant behavior as something for what it is, deviance.

O'BRIEN: Dr. Michael Welner is a forensic. I'm sure we'll talk about this more as the trial goes on. It's such a tough thing to read about for these kids. Oh my gosh, their testimony is heartbreaking. We appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

Let's get right to Christine for an update on the day's headlines.

Hey, Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Thank you, Soledad.

Happening right now in Colorado, a huge shift in the Highland Park Wildfire, burning some 60 miles south of Denver. New evacuations are in place this hour. Some residents have been allowed to return home. Officials plan to step up their fight today by using 100 engines and 34 crews to help battle the flames. That's more than double the effort yesterday.

The fire has burned about a 70 square mile area, just about percent 10 percent contained this hour. It's being blamed now for the death of one woman.

Shellie Zimmerman, the wife of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman is out of jail this morning. She posted $1,000 after being arrested and charged with perjury. She is accused of lying about the couple's finances. The same thing that got her husband tossed back into jail.

Meantime, Trayvon Martin's parents want the stand your ground law to be repealed or reformed. That law is key to George Zimmerman's defense.

Earlier, they talked to Soledad, along with their attorney, Benjamin Crump.


BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN'S FAMILY: It encourages vigilantism. It is a situation where it encourages you to try to take the law into your own hands if you think that you are threatened. It used to be a duty to retreat. That law has been changed now.

And we need to amend it to have Trayvon Martin amendment to say that you can't pursue -- you can't initiate a confrontation and then say I was standing my ground because that's what people are doing now in America. And that's a terrible message.


ROMANS: Trayvon's parents attended the first public meeting of a task force reviewing the law.

Your a.m. choice, Gabrielle Giffords' former aide will serve out the remainder of her term in the House. Democrat Ron Barber defeated Republican Jesse Kelly by six points in a special election in Arizona last night. He'll fill Giffords' seat until November. Barber was hurt in 2012 Tucson shooting rampage that critically injured Giffords.

And in Virginia, former Senator George Allen easily defeated three conservative opponents to capture that state's Republican senate primary. He'll face off in November against another former Virginia governor, Democrat Tim Kaine.

Mitt Romney often running with President Obama's now infamous words that the private sector is doing fine. During a campaign stop in Iowa, Romney called the president's comments an extraordinary miscalculation. The president -- quick to counter.


MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People across America are having a hard time. The president doesn't understand how his policies have made things so hard for the American people. It's finally time to have a president who's in touch with what's happening in America, and I am. And I'll bring back America's strength.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's like somebody goes to a restaurant, orders a big steak dinner, martini, all that stuff, and then just as you're sitting down, they leave.


OBAMA: And accuse you of running up the tab.


ROMANS: The president says the GOP isn't offering anything they didn't already try when they were in charge of the White House.

A homeless Texas man just hit the jackpot while in a jail cell. Timothy Yost (ph) was walking in a park near Austin five months ago when he found a bag of $77,000 worth of wet cash and gold coins, 77 grand, on the banks of the Colorado River.

The rightful opener has not come forward, and last night the city council voted unanimously to turn over the money to Yost. Right now, he is in jail charged with criminal trespass and public intoxication. Obviously, in jail after taking a walk, found the money, goes to jail, now finds out he gets to keep it.

CAIN: He might want to watch "No Country for Old Men." You just don't pick up money in Texas and take home.

MARTIN: I concur to Mr. Cain.

O'BRIEN: I'm not even from Texas, and I concur, Mr. Cain.

That sounds like a hot mess waiting to happen. All right. Thank you. Appreciate it, Christine.

Still ahead this morning, Casey Anthony speaks exclusively to CNN for the first time since she was acquitted of murder. We'll tell you why she says she's ashamed.

And billions of dollars lost in bad bets. JPMorgan's CEO Jamie Dimon is on the hot seat in front of Congress. Can he explain the big loss? Senator Bob Corker is going to be asking him some of the tough questions. He'll join us live, next.

Here's Will's playlist, Dropkick Murphys "I'm Shipping Up to Boston".

You're watching STARTING POINT.


O'BRIEN: Welcome back to STARTING POINT, everybody. In just about two hours, JPMorgan CEO, Jamie Dimon, is going to testify in front of the Senate Banking Committee about his bank's multibillion dollar loss. It was a complex credit fit meant to shield the bank from risk, but essentially, it went bad and cost three executives, at the end of the day, their jobs.

Also, it raised some serious questions about the way the bank does business. We got a look at Dimon's prepared testimony, and in it, he says this. "In hindsight, traders did not have the requisite understanding of the risks they took."

Republican senator, Bob Corker of Tennessee, is a member of that banking committee that Dimon will be testifying in front of, and he was the first to call for the hearings. It's nice to see you, senator. Thank you for being with us. We appreciate it. You've seen, I'm sure, his printed testimonies of what he'll be saying. What do you want to hear from Jamie Dimon today? SEN. BOB CORKER, (R) TENNESSEE: Well, first of all, this is not about the bank being in trouble. I mean, $2 billion is less than two months worth of earnings at JPMorgan. It's a well capitalized institution.

But this is the kind of hearing that we should have had before we ever passed any kind of financial regulation, and there are some of us that believe that Congress just responded in a political way to our financial system.

So, I think what this hearing does is provides us an opportunity to see how these highly complex institutions are run, to see some of the gaps, and to help inform us as we move ahead as to whether we have really dealt with some of the issues that created our last financial crisis. Are there other structures that we need to be looking at?

And I think it's going to be an interesting time. I think most people understand that while Dodd-Frank passed some time ago, regulators, right now, in real time, are writing the regulations. And so, I think this is going to be an informative hearing, but again, it's not about Congress worrying about whether JPMorgan is going to make it or not.

I mean, this is a blip on the radar screen. But it happens at a time that I think is important. It's informative as we continue to move along with the rules and regulations as they're being put in place.

O'BRIEN: And do you think that there should be more regulation or do you think that this particular instance with JPMorgan is an indication that you could use less regulation?

CORKER: You know, what we did during financial regulation is we did not take our time to really delve into how the structure of our banking system ought to be. It's a 2,400-page bill. It's like a Christmas tree of regulations. And unfortunately, what we did was apply those same regulations to all the community banks around our country.

So, your listening audience is having tremendous difficulty at the local level, and yet, I don't think we really dealt appropriately with some of the larger institutions. So, it's not about more regulation. It's about putting in place the right kind of structure. What do we want our financial system to be in the 21st century in this global environment that our companies operate in? And, again, it's unfortunate --

O'BRIEN: Forgive me for interrupting you, senator, but you said the time wasn't taken, and that the banks from the community banks to the big banks are all sort of under the same regulation.

CORKER: That's right.

O'BRIEN: But I guess, my question is, so, at the end of the day, looking at it now as you see it, should there be more regulation or do you think that, in fact, there should be less regulation? CORKER: Well, I think we ought to have a different -- for instance, community banks don't deal with the kind of things that, you know, JPMorgan deals in as it relates to these complex derivatives where they're trying to hedge against loans in Europe. So, you ought to really have regulation that's appropriate to the types of entities that we're dealing with.

There's been a lot of things that have come up recently since this debacle at JPMorgan, and that is, was Glass-Steagall a more appropriate place? Again, should there be more capital? Should we follow the Bear model, the Hoenig model? So, I think this is actually an interesting thing for Congress to be looking at.

And when you say more regulation, the answer in Dodd-Frank was to put a regulator beside every banker. I'm slightly exaggerating. But there's no way regulators are ever going to be ahead of bankers. I mean, I think you're going to see that in testimony today. So, maybe what you ought to do is look at, hey, what are the lines -- how are these lines of functioning within the banks?

What is proper capital? What are things at highly complex institutions ought to be involved in? And instead of that, what we did was just sort of put this lead blanket over our financial system. And I think what you're seeing is many in your listening audience are having trouble accessing credit.

And I don't think we really addressed many of the root causes of what happened in this last crisis. So, what I would say -- I would say we need to look at different kinds of regulations, not more regulation or less.

O'BRIEN: And would a different kind of regulation be something like reinstating Glass-Steagall?

CORKER: Well, that's been a proposal, and I --

O'BRIEN: Would you support it?

CORKER: Well, I think there are a lot of questions to be asked. And I think we've just begun that process. And I'm one of those kinds of folks that wants to understand each of these lines of business. But, you know, there's no question that when Glass-Steagall was put in place, it changed the culture of organizations like Goldman Sachs and others.

They went from a partnership to a public entity. I don't think that's probably the right answer. But what I will say to you as one Republican senator, I'm open to looking at a better way of ensuring that down the road, our taxpayers never have to come to the aid of our large highly complex institutions.

And at the same time, I want to make sure that we do it in a way that allows our great companies in America to prosper and be able to deal with entities all over the world. I don't think we ever, ever asked that question under Dodd-Frank. Again, it was a political response to a structural problem. And I think now, we have the opportunity to try to get it right. And I think over time, you're going to see a lot of positive changes take place in financial regulation to overcome sort of this political response that occurred about a year and a half ago.

O'BRIEN: Senator Bob Corker is a republican from Tennessee. Nice to see you, sir. Thanks for talking with us.

CORKER: Thank you.

ROMANS: You know, it's interesting because taxpayer money wasn't at risk here, you know? And you're not going to get Jamie -- you know? And it wasn't. If you talk about this vocal rule and Dodd- Frank, this was a bank taking a risk, making a bet, and the bet was bad.

How do you legislate, regulate, against taking risks? That's what, you know, that's what banks do. That's one of the ways the economy -- the world economy grows. What I think is so interesting about this is that Jamie Dimon was the one who was the moral authority on the street saying, you don't need to give us any more bad Washington political regulations.

We can do it ourselves. And he squandered that moral authority. I think you're going to see a lot of senators today, Soledad, too, who are going to be looking to score political points, are necessarily interested in really making sure something doesn't happen --


O'BRIEN: One at a time.

MARTIN: Go ahead, Margaret. I'm sorry.

HOOVER: Isn't the question, though, that we have just passed this massive financial regulatory reform bill, and could this have stopped -- could Dodd-Frank have actually stopped something like this from happening? We've passed the vocal rule. The vocal rule isn't completely written.

It's 300-plus pages. We don't even know if it would stop proprietary trading. If it wouldn't stop, what has happened, the banks -- what's happened now with Jamie Dimon, then what's the point of these regulations? They'll never keep up with the private sector. So, wouldn't it be better to have more simple --

O'BRIEN: -- answer to that no regulation?

HOOVER: Maybe capital requirements for banks. Maybe the answer is, don't try to define proprietary -- reinstate Glass-Steagall in order to protect the consumers, so taxpayers aren't on the hook.

MARTIN: I'm sorry. I'm listening to Senator Corker. He says, we have to ask more questions. It has been three years since our economy almost went off a cliff. Are you mean to telling me -- are you trying to tell me that after three years, you can't make a decision on whether or not we need to separate our banks? I think three years, you should even have an answer, Senator Corker.

O'BRIEN: There was not -- there certainly wasn't a tone of rushing to kind of come to a conclusion, certainly --

MARTIN: Three years.

O'BRIEN: We got to take a break. We got to -- prudence. Yes. And --


O'BRIEN: All right. Shush. Everybody stop talking over each other today. It's driving me crazy. Got to go to break. We're back in a moment.


O'BRIEN: Look at the Capitol and listening to Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell, "Ain't no Mountain High Enough." That's off of Roland's playlist. Surprise, surprise. You can see our entire playlist every morning on our website at POINT.

We're hearing from Casey Anthony now for the first time since she was acquitted in the death of her two-year-old daughter, Caylee, last summer. She spoke exclusively with CNNs Piers Morgan on the phone for about 10 minutes before she (ph) showed last night. Here's what Piers had to say about their conversation.


PIERS MORGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Some of the things she said were fascinating. I asked her about her public perception, which by common consent is not good. She said it's bad. It's absolutely horrible. She seemed very aware of the fact that she has a reputation of one of the most hated people in America.

She said, "Well, I mean, there's obviously several misconceptions. Obviously, I didn't kill my daughter. She said that very firmly. If anything, there's nothing in this world I've ever been more proud of, and there's no one I loved more than my daughter. She's my greatest accomplishment."

Clearly, a lot of people in America believe she killed her daughter. But I was struck by -- that was what she wanted to get over straightaway, loud and clear. "I didn't kill my girl."


O'BRIEN: Piers said that Casey Anthony told him that she is ashamed, but she's innocent.

We're going to take a short break. Still ahead on STARTING POINT, American nuns accused of practicing radical feminism head to the Vatican to explain themselves. We'll tell you why the Catholic Church doesn't seem like they're buying it.

And hip-hop superstar Nas is going to join us.

You're watching STARTING POINT. Hey, good morning. We're back in a moment.


O'BRIEN: Welcome back to STARTING POINT, everybody.

Members from the Leadership Conference of Women Religious -- it's a group that represents roughly 80 percent of nuns in the United States -- met with Vatican leaders to address claims that they have strayed from Catholic doctrine and they practice, quote, "radical feminism."

The Vatican gave a stern statement after that meeting. They say the nuns were being under the supreme direction of the Holy See. Here is the group's president, Sister Pat Farrell.


SISTER PAT FARRELL, PRESIDENT, LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE OF WOMEN RELIGIOUS: We are grateful for the opportunity for open dialogue, and now we will -- the next step will be again to go to our members to decide how to proceed from here.


O'BRIEN: Well, Sister Simone Campbell is the executive director of NETWORK, it's a national Catholic social justice lobby. One of the organizations that the Vatican singled out in its statements. We have this morning the sister joining us.

Nice to see you. Thank you for being with us, Sister Campbell. So your group singled out as being essentially, I guess in a nutshell, it's fair to say, part of the problem, if you will. What kind of sanctions could you face from the Vatican?

SISTER SIMONE CAMPBELL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NETWORK: Actually, it's very interesting that our organization is not directly related to the Vatican. And probably the -- I mean, I'm not sure that they could do anything directly to us. The bigger concern is what they could do to Catholic sisters in the United States as a group. And to --

O'BRIEN: What could they do?

CAMPBELL: Well, with the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, what they could do is end it. It's like the Leadership Conference was incorporated or organized by the Vatican. And so the Vatican does indeed have control over its organizational function. And so how it proceeds -- how LCWR proceeds is really an important question and needs to be in relationship with Rome.

But the piece that's missing here is while you could have different structures, the fact is Catholic sisters in the United States have very strong relationships. And that while they can do a lot to change structures, they won't change our friendships. O'BRIEN: Well, let's say, if they wanted to end the LCWR, 80 percent, I believe that's the correct figure, of sisters in the United States are members of that. What would that literally specifically mean?

CAMPBELL: Well, what it would mean is that there would no longer be the organization of that -- of the leaders of the women religious in the United States that's sanctioned by Rome. There is another group, a much smaller group, that represents some of the other 20 percent. And then some sisters don't belong to either leadership group.

It's thought that maybe the Vatican would want to focus on the other group that has more the traditional communities in it. And then each religious congregation there's no mandate that we be a member of either group. So each religious congregation would then have to decide where do they put their time, their energy. But the piece that I want to stress is that the spiritual life and friendship go far beyond the -- these structures.

O'BRIEN: So then, to me, that's -- and I say this as someone who has an uncle who is a priest and two aunts who are nuns, sounds like you're saying, listen, it's about relationships. So at the end of the day, no matter what the Vatican says, we for these relationships. Is that kind of in a nutshell what you're saying?


CAMPBELL: Well, you certainly boiled it down to the nugget. I think the key piece here is that we do this life because of a spiritual journey. We know that when there's resistance on any side, the Vatican or ours, it's an opportunity for spiritual growth. And it's that effort that we're trying to use this moment to break open and lift up the fact that the needs of the people in our society, that are at the margins, that are most hurt by this economy, we will continue to be faithful to our mission to lift up those folks and make it clear that we work for the needs of the poor.

O'BRIEN: So yesterday, I was out, but Christine Romans was doing an interview with Sister Maureen Fiedler. She's the host of the public radio program, "Interfaith Voices."

CAMPBELL: Oh, yes.

O'BRIEN: Oh yes. And Christine asked her --

CAMPBELL: We know her.

O'BRIEN: I'm sure you do. Christina asked her, you know, is there a war on women from the Catholic Church, and here's what she said.


SISTER MAUREEN FIEDLER, HOST OF THE PUBLIC RADIO PROGRAM, "INTERFAITH VOICES": Well, it's a fundamental question that a lot of people ask. It's certainly true that at the institutional level, women are not treated as equals in the church. And they need to be.


O'BRIEN: She went on to ask her if American nuns, and even American Catholics, are moving faster and evolving, I guess, faster than what's happening in Rome. And she said yes to that, too. She said, you know, Rome is essentially remaining dictatorial, non- collaborative, but the American Catholic Church is not. Do you agree with that? And what are the implications if that's true?

CAMPBELL: Well, I think really this is a very key time for the church. And in Vatican Two, our renewal program in the '60s, we looked at the enculturation of faith in different cultures. And I think what we have here is the enculturation of the Catholic faith into a democratic culture. And Rome continues as an absolute monarchy. And in there they enculturate faith.

And so when you enculturate faith in a democratic culture we know the value of each individual, that every person should have a vote, that questions are the way to truth, that exploration together in a group is the way we do -- we discover good policy.

So that's what we know. But in the absolutely monarchy, they have a top down approach where the monarch is always right. And it's that cultural clash that we're in the heart of. And how it turns out, I don't know. But I do know that faith and living the gospel will go find a way through.

O'BRIEN: Quick final question for you. I know you're going to start this bus tour. It's called "Nuns on a Bus."


O'BRIEN: Which almost sounds like a Broadway show in a way I think. It starts tomorrow. You're protesting Congressman Paul Ryan's budget. What's the -- what's the plan with the bus tour?

CAMPBELL: OK. It actually starts Sunday. In -- we're leaving tomorrow.

O'BRIEN: Got it.

CAMPBELL: That we start Sunday, Sunday in Des Moines, and we head east. We're lifting up the fact that we are standing with our bishops. The bishops have said that the Republican budget is an immoral document, and we agree 100 percent. People need to know that the Republican budget will devastate our country. And we need to push back and lift up our country as a whole.

It's we the people, not just we the rich people, we the corporations, or we the military. It's all of us together to make a better nation.

O'BRIEN: Sister Simone Campbell, maybe we'll have a chance to talk to you while the nuns are on the bus doing their tour across the country. Thank you for being with us this morning. Appreciate it. CAMPBELL: A delight. Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Still ahead on STARTING POINT, hip-hop superstar Nas is going to be with us. He's been tweeting it all morning. So we appreciate -- you know, and his song "Daughters" off his new album, "Life is Good," is literally about his teenaged daughter and some of his struggles as a father.

Nice to have you. Nice to see you. How are you?

NAS, MUSICIAN: Thanks for having me.

O'BRIEN: Welcome, welcome.

You're watching STARTING POINT. We're back in a moment.


O'BRIEN: Life is good. That's according to rapper Nas. And it's also the name of his new album that comes out in July. He's celebrating fatherhood reflecting on it as well with his latest single which is called "Daughters" and we're going to play a little bit of that.




O'BRIEN: Nas joins us this morning. Nice to see you. Thanks for being with us, we appreciate it. So that song is all about the struggles and some of the frustrations and some of the failures of -- of raising a girl.

NAS: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Why do you want to write about that? It's a different topic for you in some ways.

NAS: Yes. It's a different thing for me. Like having a teenage daughter is different for me. It's like I'm -- I've got to be a parent. And because of -- of the relationship I had with my daughter's mother and being in this business, it kind of took me away from her and took me away from being that parent that was there all the time. So --

O'BRIEN: Do you think you were a bad parent? Or do you think you just weren't as good as you could have been?

NAS: You know, I ask her that from time to time. She says I was great. She says I was cool. So, yes, I did my best. But it wasn't good enough for me. So that's why I did this record.

O'BRIEN: You have another chance. You've got a son who is only about to be three. NAS: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Do you think differently about how you'll raise him as a father? Or is it just different, boys and girls?

NAS: It's different. It's just different, you know. He's really too young for me to really know -- he's starting to talk a lot now. So we are starting to build this cool relationship. And I want to be better now this time around.

MARTIN: Having a daughter, and then when you see certain things on television, you hear certain songs, has it changed your view of even music, even within the industry, because you're saying, wait a minute. I'm hearing folks talk about women in a certain way, and I have a daughter.

NAS: Myself included. You know, my language about, you know, women, things, life, was a little crazy. So you know, for a minute, when my daughter was born, I thought I couldn't write anymore because here she's going to hear this stuff from her dad.

So I started to make records that would be -- that I thought she could listen to. I'd make one record -- I had a record called "I Know I Can" years ago, and that was -- that was pretty cool. And she liked it. And that was my way of trying to give back, you know.

CAIN: When was the shift? What was the flip that was switched? I know your daughter Instagrammed the picture. Was this the moment? Tell us about that?

O'BRIEN: It's in the video too.

NAS: Yes it's crazy man. Like -- you know her -- her own Twitter was like, you know, I would hear that she's tweeting a lot of things. And I saw what she was tweeting. And it was just -- I'm like that's not my kid right there. Like she is putting on this kind of thing for the world, like she's almost a rapper in her tweets. You know and it's like an act to me, you know what I mean?


NAS: So it just wouldn't stop. And it wouldn't stop. And it just started to, you know, catching on to other blog -- people were blogging about it and the stuff. So this was my -- this song also was a way for me to like teach her and kind of -- kind of embarrass her at the same time, beating myself up for not doing certain things that I think I should have did. So --

MARTIN: But you got a little embarrassed when your editor put the wrong birth date.


NAS: That was -- that was crazy.

O'BRIEN: That's how the video starts. And it was your birthday and it's not your daughter's birthday. She's in the video, though.

NAS: She's in the video at the end, yes, yes.

O'BRIEN: So as a parent, do you -- I mean, I have the lyrics here, if I were going to like read this to my kid, I'd be like expletive, expletive, expletive, "n" word, "n" word, expletive, expletive. Do you go through -- I mean, is this going to change, or -- or do you think about changing how you -- you write the lyrics? I mean, why the "n" word all the time?

NAS: It's just -- its street corner language. It's just -- as I get older, I've got to be honest with you, as I get older the need for me to use it in my -- in my music is -- is not so much as it -- as it used to be. But it's like young language, young street corner language, that winds up on the radio. And it speaks to a lot of young people in their language.

O'BRIEN: So this is the way to be authentic with the people who are listening to you?

NAS: Yes. You've got to be authentic.

O'BRIEN: But if someone said to your daughter the "n" word, right? You would go and kill that person, I would bet, no?

NAS: No.

O'BRIEN: No, really.

NAS: No.

MARTIN: But if you're a cousin of mine.

NAS: Oh if someone called her in like --


NAS: -- in a mean, racial way, oh, yes. Yes, I mean, that's different.

O'BRIEN: All right. Now it's nice to see you. We are out of time.

NAS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: It's great to have you as always.

NAS: Can I say happy birthday to my daughter who will be 18 on Friday?

O'BRIEN: Of course you can. Go ahead.

NAS: Happy birthday, Destiny. Thank you for having me.

MARTIN: All right.

O'BRIEN: "Life is Good" is the name of the album. Nice to have you. I appreciate it.

NAS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Still ahead this morning, she was a gold-winning gymnast on the unforgettable 1996 United States gymnastics team. But Dominique Moceanu was hiding some pretty dark secrets. We've got her story and a shocking family secret coming up next.


O'BRIEN: At just 14 years old, she was the youngest member of the 1996 U.S. Olympic gymnastics team. I remember that so well. But behind the gold medal success, Dominique Moceanu had some deep dark secrets. She shares her stories of abuse, the secret injuries and a -- and a shocking family secret too in her new book which is called "Off Balance".

Dr. Sanjay Gupta talked to her for this week's "Human Factor."


DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Olympic gymnast Dominique Moceanu hasn't lost the focus and the smile she's known for as a member of the magnificent seven in Atlanta. But behind that smile, she's hidden a lot of pain.

While she loved the sport, Moceanu says her coaches, Marta and Bela Karolyi, made her life miserable, severely restricting her eating, forcing her to hide any sports-related injuries and constantly chipping away at her self-esteem.

DOMINIQUE MOCEANU, 1996 OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: The name calling like the piggy and fat. The Karolyis for example they hit me in a lot of personal and emotional places. They used my father as a medium of abuse.

GUPTA: She says the coaches would call her father to complain about her performance in practice. And he'd punish her by hitting her.

MOCEANU: For so long I was silenced by those very people who never wanted me to say anything.

GUPTA: The Karolyis declined to comment on her accusations, but tell CNN, quote, "We have known Dominique since she was a young gymnast and wish her only the best of success that she goes through life."

At 17 she went to court to be granted legal independence from her Romanian parents to reclaim her money and choose her own coach. Moceanu's younger sister, Christina, says she witnessed the abuse she suffered at the hands of her father. But says Dominique reconciled with him before he died from cancer.

MOCEANU: And I learned to take those experiences that were difficult and that in my life and the adversity that I had overcome to use it for a positive change.

GUPTA: Moceanu retired from gymnastics in 2006. And soon afterward, while she was pregnant with her first child, she received a letter from another sister. One she never knew she had, a sister born with no legs and given up for adoption.

MOCEANU: I got the biggest bombshell of my life. And it changed everything. My life will forever, you know, be divided now into before knowing about Jen and after knowing about Jen.

GUPTA: Today, Moceanu is happily married and wants to help other young gymnasts fall in love with the sport that she loved so much. And she says her two children may even be gymnasts in the future.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.


O'BRIEN: "End Point" is up next with the panel. Back in a moment.


O'BRIEN: "End Point" goes to Will Cain.

CAIN: I want to start -- finish where we started, that your shoes reveal so much about your personality. I want to illustrate this to you by pointing out that today when Roland Martin walked in looking like Tubbs from Miami Vice, I had no idea whether or not he was ready to baptize people or stop crack dealers on the corner. The white suit says nothing about Roland. But the saddleback sling back mandals do.

MARTIN: The fact -- the fact that you think the suit is white shows me you have no clue whatsoever. And the one thing Will Cain should never do, use fashion in a sentence.

O'BRIEN: I have never been with a group of people where the men overwhelmingly talk more about clothes than the women.


O'BRIEN: Margaret knows.


O'BRIEN: Hey, nice dress, Margaret. Hey, nice shoes. Done and done.

And you guys talk about it all day, all day.

All day. All day.

MARTIN: He has 30 of those in his closet.

O'BRIEN: We're moving on. All right. Tomorrow we're going to talk to Ice-T.

Let's get right to "CNN NEWSROOM" with Carol Costello. It begins right now. Hey Carol, good morning.