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JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Zimmerman`s Jailhouse Phone Calls Released

Aired June 18, 2012 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to bring in Jane Velez-Mitchell. And Jane, the advances in modern science are just incredible, aren`t they?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Oh, absolutely. And these kinds of horrific, freak accidents happen all the time. And they are an absolute disaster nightmare for families.

So it`s wonderful that she is getting all the help she possibly can. Our thoughts and prayers do go out to her and her family. It`s a heart- wrenching experience. And we only hope, really hope that she comes through and comes through ultimately healthy.

Tonight I`m going to play for you George Zimmerman`s secret jailhouse conversations with his wife tonight. You`ll hear for the first time Trayvon Martin`s shooter allegedly talking in code to his wife Shellie. The jailhouse tapes give us a revealing look at who George Zimmerman is. His values, his fears, his relationships with his loved ones. We`re playing the recorded conversations, and we`re analyzing them tonight live with a panel of experts.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL (voice-over): Tonight, just released. The secret jailhouse tapes of George Zimmerman and his wife. The Trayvon Martin shooter caught exchanging expressions of love while allegedly talking in code, instructing his wife on how to transfer thousands of dollars when he claimed he was broke.

Does his reference to Peter Pan really mean PayPal? We`ll analyze the tapes, and we`re taking your calls.

Plus the first defense witnesses takes the stand in the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse trial. The former football coach`s Penn State co-worker says he also showered frequently with boys in locker rooms, claiming it`s normal and part of sports. You won`t believe Sandusky`s latest defense tactic.

Plus, the big Kardashian clan interview with talk-show queen Oprah Winfrey. She`s asking the tough questions about Kim`s infamous sex tapes and her 72-day marriage. And did Kim`s mom put her on birth control when Kim was just 14?

SHELLI ZIMMERMAN, WIFE: I need to figure out how to reset his password so that I can log into the account for him.

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, SHOOTING SUSPECT: Remember, no personal information.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is in custody now. He`s going to remain there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A judge revoked his bond on Friday, saying he misled the court about his finances and an unsurrendered passport.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They also accuse the couple of speaking in code somehow about donations from a Web site he`d set up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have the jail calls the defendant made to his wife.

G. ZIMMERMAN: Total everything, how much are we looking at?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Like $155.

Does it give you any solace knowing that this is taken care of now?

G. ZIMMERMAN: Huge, huge.

S. ZIMMERMAN: Good, good.

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN`S FAMILY: His credibility is the most important thing in this entire case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zimmerman, who had been living in an undisclosed location due to threats on his life, is charged with second-degree murder.

MARK O`MARA, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: He`s worried about himself. He`s worried about his wife. He`s worried about his family.

CRUMP: They`ve always believed if the shoe was on the other foot, that Trayvon Martin would have been put in jail on day one, and he would not have been given bail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If this was irrelevant to bond, then why did they lie about it?

S. ZIMMERMAN: You`re special (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to people at home.

ROBOTIC VOICE: This call will be recorded and subject to monitoring at any time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a revealing look at the man who shot Trayvon Martin dead, as his jailhouse conversations are released.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Question for you tonight: did George Zimmerman and his wife Shellie have an elaborate plot to hide money just before his April bond hearing so they could pretend to be broke and get a reduced bail?

Listen for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ZIMMERMAN: In my account, do I have at least $100?

S. ZIMMERMAN: In his account, does he have at least $100. No.

G. ZIMMERMAN: How close am I?

S. ZIMMERMAN: There`s like $8.

G. ZIMMERMAN: Really?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Like $8 and like 60 cents or something.

G. ZIMMERMAN: I thought you said it was like 300 total.

S. ZIMMERMAN: Nope, Ken inflated it.

G. ZIMMERMAN: Oh, OK. So total everything how much are we looking at?

S. ZIMMERMAN: Like $155.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Prosecutors say $155 actually refers to $155,000. These tapes led to George`s wife`s arrest on perjury charges just last week. She`s accused of speaking to her husband in code, hiding his money, while he was behind bars, and lying to a judge when she said they were broke at his bond hearing.

The conversations give us an inside look at their very close relationship. We`re going to play them for you tonight. A lot of them. What do you think of these secret conversations? Give me a holler: 1-877- JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to Mark Nejame, criminal defense attorney and HLN legal analyst.

I got to ask you. There`s a hearing in two weeks, June 29. That`s the next bond hearing. George Zimmerman`s attorney, Mark O`Mara, is expected to ask for him to get out on bail again, on bond. Are they going to play these tapes? Can that possibly happen, given these tapes?

MARK NEJAME, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, sure. These tapes are critical to that. Basically, the state is alleging that he did not come forward when his wife was lying on stand. And in fact, he had a substantial amount of money. And if, in fact, that had come out, the judge very well may have made a different ruling.

So yes, these tapes are extremely relevant. One, it deals with credibility for anything he might say. And two, it deals with the issue of money, which is a major consideration for the bond issue.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve got to play more of these, because they`re absolutely fascinating. On the jailhouse phone call, George and Shellie talk about moving money, and they revel in the support coming into their Web site.

But they also give us insight into their relationship as a pair of married people. Listen to this exchange between husband and wife.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ZIMMERMAN: Man, I can`t remember what the dream was, but it was really nice. It was like, I bought you something that you always wanted. I don`t remember what it was.

S. ZIMMERMAN: Oh, honey. You don`t need to worry about that, cutie.

G. ZIMMERMAN: I wish I could remember. It was like a nice scarf or something.

S. ZIMMERMAN: Oh, you`re so cute. I love you so much.

G. ZIMMERMAN: I love you so much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is this romantic banter appropriate, Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, given the fact that he`s behind bars because he shot someone dead? Or does this reveal that somehow George Zimmerman and perhaps his wife, as well, are just not in touch with the severity of the situation they`re in? He is about to be put on trial for murder.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think it indicates that they kind of live in their own private world that makes sense to them only.

And perhaps -- I almost wonder if they`re both paranoid in a similar kind of way. And sometimes when you have two people who are married to each other, who are paranoid about the outside world, they cling to each other in a very loving way. And when they`re with each other, they don`t necessarily address the realities of the outside world.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it could also be that they`re sort of hooked on the negative excitement. Hooked on the drama. Seeing themselves as sort of characters in a movie. Because it seems that they`re romanticizing, to a certain degree, this entire ordeal, which again, is a tragedy involving somebody who died.

Shellie and George were taped talking about what they called overwhelming public support, especially through a Web site set up to accept donations for George Zimmerman. Listen to this portion of the secret tapes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

S. ZIMMERMAN: Don`t worry, cutie. Don`t even worry.

G. ZIMMERMAN: Ah, man, that feels good. That`s a good...

S. ZIMMERMAN: What?

G. ZIMMERMAN: That there are people in America that care.

S. ZIMMERMAN: Yes, they do. Trust me. And boy, after that happened yesterday, he said like, so many people, your site kept crashing.

G. ZIMMERMAN: Wow.

S. ZIMMERMAN: Because people were just trying to give you, you know, words of support and kindness.

G. ZIMMERMAN: Good. Wow, that is awesome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Lieberman, investigative reporter, prosecutors alleged George Zimmerman had access, at the time, to at least $135,000. Much of it raised through donations to Web sites.

But it seems to me that he is approaching this as some sort of campaign or contest. You know, he`s not running for anything. As I mentioned before, he`s about to be put on trial for murder in the second degree. And yet, it seems to sound almost like a campaign of sorts.

JON LIEBERMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, it was. It was interesting to me that these two know that they`re being recorded. That`s why they`re allegedly speaking in code, and yet they gave out so much information, Jane.

And I want to point out this. This isn`t being talked about. Prosecutors also released the bank statements of these two. And if you look at the bank statements, I reviewed them. If you look at them, there is a pattern.

The same day that these two talk in depth about transferring money and Peter Pan and using this code, you can see in the bank statements there are large amounts of transfers made between PayPal and each of their personal accounts. And that will definitely come out in this next bond hearing, and it`s very important.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s fascinating to me that they, if, in fact, they were speaking in code, as prosecutors alleged, were naive enough to think that somehow, first of all, that people would accept the fact that they were talking about chump change, and that the prosecutors wouldn`t check the bank records. I mean, all you have to do is check their bank records and you can see these transfers occurring.

Let`s go out to the phone lines. Betty, Virginia. Your question, Betty.

CALLER: Jane, I want to first say I love you, love you, love you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.

CALLER: Second of all, I watched the bond hearing where his family testified over the phone. I never believed for one second that they had no money. It just -- the look on his face, the voices. It just did not sound feasible.

And it`s about time that somebody is finally being charged with perjury. Because this doesn`t make any sense.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ZIMMERMAN: Call him and make sure that he does it every day, and that you transfer from mine to yours every day.

S. ZIMMERMAN: Transfer from mine to yours every day and set an alarm in my phone to remind me, within 24 hours. OK.

G. ZIMMERMAN: And to remind Ken, too. You have might have to call him and remind him.

S. ZIMMERMAN: And to remind Ken, too. We both can do it?

G. ZIMMERMAN: No, Ken is going to go from Peter Pan to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now some have suggested when he says "Peter Pan" he is actually referring to PayPal. Peter Pan, PayPal. PayPal was how donors could give money to the online account that Zimmerman set up in his own defense. That account was taken down, but another one has been put up.

Pilar Prince (ph), criminal defense attorney, the big question here is how is all of this not just going to affect his bond hearing, but how is it going to affect his trial? Are these tapes damning in terms of his credibility? Do they paint George Zimmerman to be a liar, and will they be played during his trial?

PILAR PRINCE (ph), CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Jane. You know, I always tell clients this. If you lie, you will get caught. It always happens even though people think that they won`t. And that you lie is so much more important -- I`m sorry. That you lied is so much more important than what you lied about.

Here`s a perfect example. Does this make George Zimmerman a murderer? Not necessarily. But when you look at his defense under Florida law, and remember, stand your ground, if he argues it and he`s successful, is an absolute immunity to his claim of -- to the murder in this case. His credibility is everything. Why would he risk it on something as trivial as this?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s a good question. Why would he behave this way?

PRINCE (ph): Because he wanted to get out of jail. Simple.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but he could have used the money that he had. He just didn`t want to use the money that he had. He had at least $135,000. But he didn`t want to pay retail, as it were, for bail. He would rather -- and he did -- plead that he was broke. And he got out on 150 grand, 10 percent of which is 15 grand. So he only had to put 15,000 down.

Michelle Suskauer, all of this so he could get a cheap bail? Is that really the most self-destructive thing you`ve ever heard?

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, ATTORNEY (via phone): You know, I think certainly these are not the brightest bulbs in the pack. There`s no question. These are unsophisticated people under an enormous amount of stress.

And so we`re looking at them under a microscope, but I think it`s a little unfair. Because the -- I mean, no one should be under this type of microscope the way that they have been, with national and international pressure.

So I think that they do not have an opportunity to speak privately. They`re trying to -- I`m not going to make excuses for perjury, and that`s wrong. But the fact is, is that they don`t have an opportunity so to speak. This is their only opportunity to speak privately. Everything they...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but what does it say about their mentality? That obviously in the time that he was free, before he was taken into custody and finally arrested, they made a plan, and they said to each other, it would appear, anyway -- and Mark O`Mara, the attorney for George Zimmerman, is invited on our show any time. He has a standing invitation. We`d love to hear the other side of this.

But it would appear that they made a plan and said, "Hey, when I talk about Peter Pan, that stands for PayPal," or whatever the plan was. And that to me is a bad idea. The best thing is just to be straight forward.

But it also reveals how he kind of plays spy. Remember, he was a cop wannabe. He`s a guy who wanted to be a cop. He was, according to his critics, he was playing vigilante the night he play shot Trayvon Martin. Because he said the guy looks suspicious when the 17-year-old was coming back with a can of iced tea and a pack of Skittles back to his dad`s house.

So this ducktails, Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, with the portrait we`ve seen of George Zimmerman up to this this point. Somebody who is sort of living this self-made drama, self-manufactured drama. First, he was a cop wannabe. Now, he`s tinker, tailor, soldier, spy.

LUDWIG: Well, I think also, too, if we remember, when he made that 911 call, Zimmerman was not advised to be a vigilante. In fact, he was advised to not do anything.

So here`s a man who operates based on his own ideas, his own instincts, which clearly lead him astray.

And I`m going to say again, I think we`re seeing a paranoid being here, where he doesn`t trust other people. Maybe the only other person he trusts is his wife, who for whatever reason was able to break through his paranoid feelings about people in general.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ZIMMERMAN: Transfer -- for her to transfer less than $10 into her account from mine.

S. ZIMMERMAN: OK.

G. ZIMMERMAN: And then, two, is for her to log off and try to log back in using her credentials before you leave there. And then, three, is to see if she can take $10 out today, another $10, less than $10 and put it...

S. ZIMMERMAN: Uh-huh...

G. ZIMMERMAN: In her um, in her box there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So clever. So spy like. Not. It`s pretty transparent what they`re doing, at least according to prosecutors. It appears a locked-up George Zimmerman was walking his wife and his sister through the process of transferring money.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ZIMMERMAN: She just has to put in her information. It says "to another" on the top.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, OK. It says "to another", click on right there. OK, go ahead and do it.

S. ZIMMERMAN: How much?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, three more zeros. OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, it`s so dramatic. Again, you`ve got to wonder if he`s in a movie in his mind. And does this ducktail with his behavior on the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead by him. There`s no disputing that. The question was, is it self-defense or was it murder, second-degree murder?

Let`s go out to the phone lines. Patty in North Carolina. Your question or thought, Patty.

CALLER: Well, I actually have a comment.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sure.

CALLER: And I just feel like George Zimmerman is not really worried about anything, because he never had to. His father and mother, just giving him one thing after the other.

And also that, you know, him being in jail, you know, he`s not really worried about that either, because he`s just thinking, well, you know, "All these people support me. They`ve been sending me money, so, you know, the jury is, you know, going to be for me also."

And one more thing. I feel like he and his wife had planned to move that money, and that`s why he gave the judge a fake -- you know, he gave the judge the passport that had been revoked before. And he was going to use, actually use the passport that -- that, you know, the one that was good.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and there`s a whole passport issue, as well, which our caller referred to, that he had two passports. Of course, his attorney, Mark O`Mara, said it was totally this innocent misunderstanding. But others see it more skeptically.

Now, let`s listen to more of George and his wife, Shellie`s, intimate conversation. He`s in jail. She`s talking to him on the phone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

S. ZIMMERMAN: I visualize you walking through that door.

G. ZIMMERMAN: I will be.

S. ZIMMERMAN: I know you will be. This -- isn`t that crazy how something like this just makes you, like put everything in perspective in life?

G. ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Nejame, criminal defense attorney, you`re down there in Orlando. How is this playing in Orlando? The very area where all of this went down, and where he`s going to face justice?

NEJAME: I think much like -- I think Orlando, central Florida is the microcosm of much of what`s going on around the country, and actually beyond the borders of the United States. There`s a split. Some people are very strongly in the Trayvon Martin camp, and a lot of people are very strongly in the Zimmerman camp. You know, it depends upon how you interpret this.

It`s interesting. I think very few people really change their mind about these types of things. I think they have an opinion, and then they form the facts to fit into their opinion.

But there`s a lot of hot controversy. And there`s a lot of discussion and debate that goes on about it.

I will say, though, as new facts emerge as to both sides, some people are, in fact, sitting back and saying, "Whoa, this might not be initially the way we initially thought it to be," whatever side they were on. So there is a lot of water cooler talk, a lot of heated discussions about this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This guy is an enigma. And he`s what, in the movie business, they call a shape shifter. He appears as one thing and then he morphs into something else. And he continues to morph. The more we hear about him, the more complicated and almost puzzling, I think, his behavior becomes.

Britney, Georgia, your questions or thoughts, Britney? Hey, Britney, can you hear?

Hey there. All right.

Listen. What I`m going to do is go to Pilar Prince (ph), criminal defense attorney. Again, as we approach trial, how is this going to play out? Do we expect the jurors hearing his second-degree murder trial to hear his tapes? Or will it not go that far?

PRINCE (ph): Well, they`re trying to keep a lot of them out right now, Jane. But what they`re not keeping out -- and I think that Mark O`Mara is right to not try to keep it out -- is the tapes that deal directly with these bank charges.

I mean, it seems like the Zimmermans figured out from the Casey Anthony trial that they`re being taped when they`re talking in the jailhouse. But what they didn`t realize is that everybody`s paying attention to what they`re saying.

So I think that the jury can hear it. It goes to credibility, which is exactly his defense. It`s his state of mind. Did he reasonably believe that his life was in danger, and if so, does he get "stand your ground" immunity? So what he thinks and his credibility is everything.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecution has rested its case in the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse trial.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In "The New York Times" interview, there was also -- remember, it was videotaped. It wasn`t just a print interview. And there was a point about -- where Jerry Sandusky said, "I`m attracted to children, young boys."

And then you hear his attorney in the background saying, "Not sexually."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother of alleged victim number nine. She stated that while her son was spending often two to three weekends a month with Jerry Sandusky. She testified that she couldn`t figure out, she wondered why he would often come home without his underwear.

Stunning testimony from these two retired coaches because they took the stand to say -- rather matter of factly -- that they too have showered with young boys at Penn State.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say they showered with little boys. Yes. That it would just happen.

But then they`re questioned by the Commonwealth, "Did you bring them there yourself? Did you touch them? Did you lift them?" And the answer, of course, would be no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight a dramatic ending for the prosecution`s case in the Sandusky child sex abuse trial. Now the defense team unveils their secret strategy. Today the defense called four character witnesses. But did their testimony backfire? The courtroom gasped as two former Penn State coaches described the culture of locker room behavior. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": A couple of them said, you know what, I shower in locker rooms also with adolescent boys, and it`s just kind of the way we do things here. One of the two witnesses said he even showers with his granddaughter, who is too young to shower by herself.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": They say they shower with little boys, yes. That it would just happen. But then the question by the Commonwealth, "Did you bring them there yourself? Did you touch them? Did you lift them?" And the answer, of course, would be "no".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sandusky is charged with 51 counts of child sex abuse with 10 boys over 15 years. The defense also questioned a witness about Sandusky`s past football schedule, insinuating that Sandusky`s hectic schedule would have left him too busy to assault the boys.

What do you say to Sandusky`s defense? Is it plausible? Call me, 1- 877-JVM SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to former NHL hockey star and author Theo Fleury. Theo thank you for joining us tonight. You`ve spoken courageously about being abused yourself as a young by your coach. What do you think of these defense witnesses saying it`s totally normal for coaches to shower with adolescent boys and children?

THEO FLEURY, FORMER NHL HOCKEY PLAYER: I played sports for 35 years and not once did one of my coaches enter the shower after a practice or a game. So -- that`s ridiculous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Jean Casarez, correspondent, "In Session", you were in court today. What was the react, the buzz around court because a lot of people were just flabbergasted by this testimony?

CASAREZ: I think that was the reaction in court and I don`t think it was expected because with one of the former coaches, when this all started, on direct examination he talked about the long hours of being a coach. It wasn`t until cross-examination by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, when they said do you realize that young boys he took into the shower. And the response was, well, "I shower with young boys too."

And then the Commonwealth says, "11 years old?" "Yes, sure." And so that`s how it began. That`s how it just seemed to multiply in the courtroom. And people, I think, were shocked.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist -- A, is this an effective defense? And B, what does this say about the culture there?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, it`s a little scary what it says about the culture. It says anything for the team and whatever creates a successful team, we`ll protect people even if they are dangerous. So that is a scary message.

As far as a defense, there is no defense. Even if somebody has a severe character personality disorder, that doesn`t mean they don`t know the difference between right and wrong. I don`t care what kind of personality disorder you have.

So unless the defense attorney is trying to kind of lessen his sentence, this doesn`t do anything for the defense. Because, all right, he has a disorder; he does things that are wrong. Still, does he know he`s doing things that are wrong? I think the answer is absolutely yes.

This man is not psychotic. He`s not having a break with reality where he doesn`t know the difference between what is real and what`s not. That`s why I kind of put my hands up and say what is the defense attorney thinking?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, here`s another twist. We`re learning that the prosecution wants to bring in never before portions -- never before heard portions of that jaw dropping NBC interview Jerry Sandusky gave right after his arrest. You probably remember it, some of the quotes.

Well, today the "Today" show played another portion we hadn`t heard before. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it`s entirely possible that you could have helped young boy A in some way that was not objectionable while horribly taking advantage of young boy B, C, D and E. Isn`t that possible?

JERRY SANDUSKY, ON TRIAL FOR SEXUAL ABUSE: Well, you might think that. I don`t know. In terms of my relationship with so many, many young people, I would guess that there were many young people who would come forward, many more young people who would come forward and say that my methods and what I had done for them made a very positive impact on their life.

And I didn`t go around seeking out every young person for sexual needs that I`ve helped. There are many that I didn`t have -- I hardly had any contact with, who I have helped in many, many ways.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That last comment, Jon Leiberman, investigative reporter, is a shocker. Wow.

JON LEIBERMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, I mean it is. It`s unbelievable. He has never unequivocally said that he didn`t have inappropriate behavior with children.

And I`ll tell you, today, Jane, didn`t feel like the defense putting up a defense. It felt like during sentencings when they get to present mitigating factors like, oh, by the way, Sandusky was a good football coach and he helped a lot of children. It felt like he had already been convicted and at this point they were just trying to put forth mitigating circumstances.

He`s expected to take the stand in his own defense as early as tomorrow.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, get this, the defense is planning to argue that Sandusky had something called histrionic personality disorder. Watch this from NBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDUSKY: If I say, "No, I`m not attracted to boys," that`s not the truth because I`m attracted to young people, boys, girls --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but not sexually. You`re attracted because you enjoy spending time with them.

SANDUSKY: Right. I enjoy -- that`s what I was trying to say -- I enjoy spending time with young people. I enjoy spending time with people - -

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Theo Fleury, again, you were sexually abused by your coach. When you hear this interview with Jerry Sandusky, what runs through you?

FLEURY: Well, there`s a lot of similarities in my case and the Sandusky case, you know. These guys, they just can`t keep their ego in check. You know, they have to be in the spotlight. They`re very arrogant, and they think they can get away with it. And obviously, you know, as a case, you know, goes on, you just see even more and more of him, you know, basically hanging himself. And, you know, it is just typical of, you know, the way these guys act and how they conduct themselves and so, it`s quite humorous that the defense would even allow him to be anywhere near a camera because he just keeps digging himself a bigger hole.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, Theo, you raise a good point. There are people who say he could testify. He could take the stand tomorrow. Oh my gosh. We`re going to stay on top of the story.

Theo, and my entire panel, thank you so much.

Tonight, video shocker. A woman`s car catches fire after she crashes and flips at a toll booth in Houston, Texas. Now, get this. A witness jumps on top of the vehicle, uses a fire extinguisher to bash the window in and pulls the woman to safety. She makes it out with just seconds to spare because moments later the car is fully engulfed in flames.

The hero -- get this -- he`s in the Texas Air National Guard. He teaches emergency response. Talk about right place, right time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw a lady frantically screaming. She`s still in there, she`s still in there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s my guardian angel. He really is. I have a hero. And God put him there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And here is your "Viral Video of the Day".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re talking about Guinness Book of World Records. The big dogs.

And yes a new world record for most dogs to surf on one surf --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wanted to have sort of a fairy tale wedding with all of her family and friends.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kim Kardashian is calling it quits on her husband number two.

KRIS JENNER, MOTHER OF Kim KARDASHIAN: Certainly wasn`t a sham. Certainly wasn`t something for TV. We have enough going on, you know, on our show that we don`t have to make things up. I mean she really felt like she was in love with him.

KIM KARDASHIAN, REALITY TV STAR: I married for love. Anyone that would, you know, get married for a TV show, it`s just ridiculous. And it`s just sad that I even have to defend that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lady O digs into Kim K about her quickie marriage, her birth control shocker and whether she became a star just because of her sex tape.

Last night on OWN Oprah sat down with all the Kardashians. Did she grill them? I certainly hope so. But you decide. The focus was clearly on Kim. Oprah put Kim under the microscope over Kim`s marriage to Kris Humphries imploding after just 72 days. Listen to this.

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OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: People say that your last marriage was a stunt.

KIM KARDASHIAN: We don`t do anything for ratings. And then I just think anyone that knows me knows that I love so hard. I fall in love fast. And I was in love.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, I love so hard. I will cuddle you so hard, Kris Humphries. Why was Kim`s marriage even shorter than her engagement? Kim says, well, it just wasn`t for her. That`s a great explanation, right?

Even though she says they never do anything at all for ratings, Kim and her clan couldn`t stop tweeting about their sit-down with Oprah, even as it was going on. "Oh, and Oprah is on our couch, not a big deal," tweets Kourtney. Kim sends out a picture saying "Oh, just me and @Oprah." And Khloe finishes it up with "Still on a high from meeting Oprah."

What do you think? Was the marriage a ratings story (ph) or not. Did Oprah ask the really tough questions? Call me 1-877-JVM- SAYS.

Straight out to Huff Po`s, naughty but nice correspondent, Rob Shuter. Rob, did Kim come out smelling like a rose, or did Oprah do what we`ve all wanted to do? Cross examine the Kardashian clan?

ROB SHUTER, HUFFINGTON POST: Kim absolutely took control of this interview, took control of the press leading up to this interview once again the Kardashians win. What was Oprah doing? This wasn`t the Oprah I know and love. These are softball questions. And one has to wonder, is this because her network is not doing very well? I don`t know. I think that the Kardashians did great; Oprah, not so good.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, maybe Kim Kardashian has a way of hypnotizing everyone, including Oprah, when she just stares with those big brown eyes. We can`t tell if they`re thinking of anything at all. You just go kind of into a state of like, hypnosis. At one point during the interview, Kim acknowledges most people have no idea at all why she`s famous. Watch this from OWN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM KARDASHIAN: Because of the divorce, the platform has been given to these haters that do say the fame is for being famous and it seems like a lot of glitz and glam for no reason. But I think because of my experiences I don`t care as much.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: We need pop culture expert Jawn Murray. Please, give us some perspective here.

JAWN MURRAY, POP CULTURE EXPERT: Jane, well, Kim did tell the truth there. She`s not famous for being famous. She`s famous for doing a sex tape. Now, I couldn`t disagree more with Rob. I thought Oprah asked the questions that everybody wanted answers to, because I, like many people was angry that Oprah was interviewing the Kardashians.

But you can`t ask Kim Kardashian about that sex tape on no other show. A publicist will run in screaming, saying stop interview. But Oprah asked her about it, and she finally acknowledged, yes, that`s why you know me.

I just wish she would have finally acknowledged that it was not a leak and that it was a plant and it set up the whole family empire. That`s the truth of this whole matter.

But look, it wasn`t a surprisingly entertaining interview. And Oprah`s got to do these interviews because people have to watch OWN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re just days away from the Daytime Emmys right here on HLN. This show has it all. The soaps, the talk shows, the stars - - everything you love including, of course, the red carpet. You can watch the Daytime Emmy Awards live Saturday June 23, 8:00 p.m. Eastern only here on HLN.

And you could be there in person too. Just go to our Web site and enter the sweepstakes. The grand prize is a trip for two to L.A. to attend the awards; HLNTV.com/daytimeemmysweeps to enter.

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KIM KARDASHIAN: I did want to have sex for the first time, I did tell her, I said I think I`m going to, or I want to. So she was like, ok, this is what we`re going to do. We`re going to put you on birth control. And she was really open and honest.

WINFREY: How old were you then? Can you share that?

KIM KARDASHIAN: I was almost 15.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: 14 and on birth control -- that was the biggest shocker for me, that clip from OWN. Ok, gentlemen, 20 seconds each to wrap it up, starting with Rob Shuter.

SHUTER: The best (inaudible) in the night for me was when Oprah said "That was so perfect." I could weep when Kim described her failed marriage. Oprah, it`s two years too late, the Kardashians are gone. Two years too late.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jawn Murray, you have the final word.

MURRAY: He, look. I enjoyed 50 Cent, the Kardashians were surprisingly good. And she`s got Rihanna up next. Oprah is embracing pop culture in a way she`s never had before.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That will make a difference?

TOM HOLLAND, FITNESS EXPERT: Huge difference.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s about getting back to basics.

HOLLAND: We don`t have to work out for 30 minutes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to take you on a fabulous new adventure that could change your life.

KATHY FRESTON, AUTHOR, "THE LEAN": Here is the secret that`s going to blow your mind.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Part of my adventure to slimness.

FRESTON: I don`t want you to be miserable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Small changes to your diet that will radically improve your health and lower your weight. It`s not a diet.

HOLLAND: A couple of minutes a day, it`s going to make changes, it`s going to really work.

VELEZ-MITCHELL : I feel it already and this is kind of fun.

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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m having fun with this and I hope you are too; my adventure to slim -- another little tweak to our daily menu that`s delicious. We`re drinking the eight glasses of water a day. Having the apple a day. And now we`re going to go to Kathy Freston of "The Lean" who is showing us the way. What is next on your agenda, Kathy.

FRESTON: Well, you know, Jane, I`m all about crowding out not cutting out. so I believe we should have all of our favorite foods but just healthier versions of them.

On this day of "The Lean", we`re going to move away from animal protein and instead switch into plant based protein. But I know you love your favorite things like meat slices for sandwiches and ground beef for chili and tacos and things like that and cheese. So instead of having the animal based stuff, we`re going to have plant-based stuff.

Let me just tell you why really quick. Because all that meat and dairy is a concentrated source of fat and calories; fat and calories makes you fat, plain and simple. Right?

Plant-based food is loads of fiber, that`s going to fill you up. It`s going to clean you out. It`s going to release the blood sugar slowly and steadily. That`s really important. And check this out, for three hours after eating a plant-based meal, your metabolism burns 30 percent faster.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow.

FRESTON: So that`s pretty amazing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What have you got here?

FRESTON: So, for sandwiches, we all like, you know, a little light deli sandwich, tofurky --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Zoom in on it and let`s see what she`s got there. Come on let`s show it.

FRESTON: And here`s the thing, you`ve goes these fantastic bologna slices, zero cholesterol.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

FRESTON: Zero cholesterol. No, saturated fat, very low in fat, fantastic taste, traditional food, better version.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

FRESTON: Same for this meatless meat.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, ok.

FRESTON: So here you go. You can make your tacos, your chili, your spaghetti Bolognese, but you`re going to have zero cholesterol, no saturated fat; very, very low in fat, low in calories.

Same thing, this is one of my favorites, chicken. So if you like chicken, instead of having the real thing, have a plant-based version of it. Zero cholesterol, much lower in fat. It`s going to fill you up and your whole family is going to love it, because we all grew up on having chicken.

And cheese, who doesn`t like something that`s creamy and delicious but it`s fattening. Regular cheese is fattening, remember, a cow produces cheese.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Zoom in on this one.

This is not cheese, but it`s like cheese.

FRESTON: It`s made from tapioca.

END