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Sandusky Defense Rests; Serial Mistress
Aired June 20, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go. Listen up.
There is a serial mistress out there who wants to borrow your husband. Isn`t she nice? But she doesn`t want to keep him, because, well, he`s a cheater after all. She says she can help save your marriage.
Call her now, 1-855-DRDREW5.
And would you know if your spouse were hiding a terrible secret? Is Dottie Sandusky keeping a secret in denial, or is her husband wrongly accused?
Pick up the phone, call us, 1-855-DRDREW5. We are live. Let`s get started.
PINSKY: OK, as usual, Wednesday is sex and relationships. Before we get into that topic, and those topics, I want to talk first about the Sandusky trial, which is wrapping up. Take a look at this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOYCE PORTER, SANDUSKY CHARACTER WITNESS: Think of the thousands of boys that have gone through his football camps, either at Penn State or the Sandusky football camps. Think of all the thousands of kids who have gone through Second Mile. I mean, it`s thousands to eight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was a Sandusky character witness. I`m just doing the witness math there. She`s saying if you do good for a thousand kids, you can screw up a few. I guess that`s the math she`s doing.
And I have to wonder also about his wife Dottie, testifying that she never saw any children being abused or any sense that there was abuse going on.
So, the question we`re asking ourselves, could she really have lived with him for decades and not suspected anything at all?
Joining me, former prosecutor Marcia Clark.
Marcia, before I speculate more about Dottie, what do you think is coming up tomorrow? Is this going to wrap up and go quickly to jury and they`ll come back with a verdict?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I can never predict if they`re going to come back with a verdict. And especially nowadays that juries know we`re all watching them, they`re going to be really careful to like at least that they went through all the charges and the evidence. And I`m sure this jury will, I have no reason to doubt it.
With respect to what happens next, tomorrow is going to be closing arguments. I think those are going to wrap up pretty quickly.
It is not that protracted a trial. They had the witnesses they had, but it all boils down to the same thing. He molested me, he`s a serial molester. No, he didn`t, he would never do that. That`s it.
PINSKY: Does that kind of surprise you? When you say that, you think, where was the defense? You didn`t mount a defense.
It`s like you abused me. Somebody saw him doing something weird. It was awful. I thought he did something awful. Anyway, I didn`t do it.
CLARK: Yes. But usually it does boil down to this. When a child puts on any defense at all, typically it is a character witness defense because typically, child molesters don`t do it in public.
PINSKY: Child molesters aren`t of a particular character type. They can be upstanding citizens, it`s sort of typical.
CLARK: You know what? If anything is typical, it`s that.
CLARK: That they are outstanding citizens, that they are people in positions of power and people who have access to children because they`re teachers and priests and whatever. There is -- that is usually where they come from.
And they have somebody who was talking to me in the green room saying does he drive an ice cream truck. That`s another one of your typical thing. A person who is otherwise respected in the community, whatever the job is, and that is -- it is a job nevertheless that puts them in contact with children.
PINSKY: Trusted job around children.
CLARK: That`s right.
PINSKY: Why didn`t the prosecutors put in any kind of expert that talked about the inconsistency that often occurs in the children who are put on the stand, the victims?
CLARK: You know, I don`t know why they didn`t do that, I have to say. Usually, in 90 percent of the cases I remember, there would always be an expert called to say, and that would be an expert in child abuse victims.
And they would talk about what we call child abuse accommodation syndrome where they explain what happens, why the victims don`t report, why the victims are inconsistent when they do report, why the victims behave in the manner that they do and try actually to keep up a relationship with their abuser, for as long as they do, as traumatized -- and why they didn`t put that on, I don`t know.
PINSKY: The defense didn`t bring up those kinds of issues, at questions.
CLARK: Oh, they did. They did. They did all the typical defense things you see them do. They accused the investigators of ceding all of the victims with the same story to get them to lie, they accused the witnesses of lying for monetary gain, they did all of the things that you would expect a defense to do in this case, and so the natural response usually by the prosecution is, look, the reason they were inconsistent, the reason they didn`t report is because this is what happens with these victims.
PINSKY: Normal. Typically.
CLARK: Typically. Maybe in this case, those people are in the courtroom, they know how it came across.
PINSKY: So, it didn`t sound consistent.
CLARK: It might not.
PINSKY: Let`s take a call.
Colette in Tennessee.
COLETTE, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Colette.
COLETTE: I was married for 23 years and had no idea that my husband had molested a family member that lived in our home.
COLETTE: And I have to live with that guilt every day, thinking that those children were safe in my home.
PINSKY: Yes. So, Colette is potentially a Dottie Sandusky.
How does somebody like Colette, I`m sure my viewers are asking, how can Colette have not had any idea?
CLARK: You know there is -- we bring to this world, to our experience of people, what we expect to find. We have certain expectations.
I know you. You`re my friend. And you`re a good guy. You would never do anything like that.
And so, we see what we expect to see. And the closer a person is to you, the more that`s true.
So, is it possible you could live in the same house and genuinely not know? Yes. I do think that not knowing is also part of not wanting to know.
PINSKY: Right, absolutely.
CLARK: But that`s human.
PINSKY: And Dottie could possibly be lying, too.
Colette, did you have to get on a stand or anything for this?
COLETTE: No, it was never prosecuted because it happened years ago. And she was 16, he said she was 18.
PINSKY: But, listen --
COLETTE: It`s sad. I have to live with it. I`m going through a divorce. But --
PINSKY: I`m going to ask you not to blame yourself.
COLETTE: It`s hard not to do.
PINSKY: I understand that. You`re a good person. You think of yourself as a good person.
You did -- you`re blind to who he actually was. And next time you won`t get fooled by these guys. You won`t. You`ll be looking.
COLETTE: I don`t think there will be a next time.
PINSKY: Well, honey, don`t -- that`s kind of sad, but --
COLETTE: You look at people a lot different.
PINSKY: I understand that. I understand. But once burned, twice shy.
CLARK: But it`s cool. Colette understands what happened. She`s on top of it, which is a really good thing. Many never are. So this is unusual.
PINSKY: Colette, don`t punish yourself for this.
COLETTE: Mine was just one and not many.
PINSKY: I get it. Yes, that`s absolutely true.
Next up -- by the way, thank you, Marcia, for coming in here. I`ll wrap this stuff up.
Next up, a self-professed -- we are changing gears. We`re talking about relationships and sex. A self-professed mistress -- there she is -- she is giving your husband what you`re not and in doing so, she is saving your marriage. Call us, talk to her, 855-DRDREW5.
PINSKY: Well, tonight, as I said, it is sex and relationships Wednesday. We like doing this stuff every Wednesday.
And I guess I have a warning for married women. There is a serial mistress on the loose.
Karen Marley admits she`s had an affair with over 50 married men, but insists she doesn`t want to steal your husband. She just wants to borrow him and you`re lucky she`s going for him, because she doesn`t want an intimate relationship. She just wants a physical relationship. So, she`s not going to take him.
Karen, along with us is my co-host, Simone Bienne, relationship expert.
Now, Karen, explain to everybody why you target married men over single men.
KAREN MARLEY, SERIAL MISTRESS: I think probably because I`ve been single for quite a while, I absolutely love being single. And single men over a certain age tend to be single for a reason.
I did date a single man who leaks his plate at a restaurant. No married men would behave like that. So, I think from that perspective, the married men are actually well-trained. They have been taught how to behave around a lady.
And so, it`s quite nice to be treated well. It is quite nice to have a lot of respect from the man. And it`s quite nice not to have a full blown relationship with someone who expects everything from you and expects you to account for where you are, every five minutes, and expects you to pick up his pants and expects you to --
PINSKY: Yes, Karen, it sounds like you would be better suited to have a Great Dane or something such as that, I suspect. But let me ask this and this is more of a serious --
MARLEY: More a cat.
PINSKY: OK. A giant Persian cat. I`m sorry.
But rather than -- the more serious question here, which is, aren`t you colluding with these men and their pathology and aren`t you damaging other women and families as a result of your behavior?
MARLEY: Not at all, no. These guys actually go on to a Web site specifically for married people called Illicit Encounters in the U.K. They actually pay quite a considerable amount of money to be on this Web site, and they are looking for a mistress. They made the conscious decision with a glass of wine and credit card in their hands to look for a mistress.
I`m not the temptress. I`m not the person that works with one of these guys, bends down in a tight skirt and tempts them. I never ever thought of having an affair.
These men are making the conscious decision to have an affair. If it wasn`t with me, it would be with a 300,000 other women that are on this site. So I suppose from that respect, I can really walk away from the guilt because I am on this Web site because it suits my lifestyle. But these guys are the ones who are making the conscious decision to cheat.
PINSKY: All right. So, Simone, what is going on in the U.K.? You`re British. What`s going on over there? Come on, now. Is this standard behavior? Come on.
SIMONE BIENNE, DR. DREW`S "LOVELINE" CO-HOST: Don`t you dare paint me with that brush. Sorry, Karen. I`ve got to say that I think she`s, you know, clearly a very charismatic woman, but the attitude is delusional. It`s not narcissistic. It`s lazy. And it`s cruel.
And if she`s a better woman because women don`t do this to other women, we don`t want to lose our integrity. She can date single men. Just because one guy over 40 licked his plate, there are other men who don`t need to lick their plate.
You know, you don`t need to do this and you shouldn`t be doing this because, in my experience, working with mistresses, you know you might think you are OK for the first 50 guys, and the first 50 marriages and children that you`ll help put in therapy for the rest of their lives, but what you`re doing is you`re not taking any responsibility.
When you die, you are going to be on your death bed if you carry on like this lonely and you will have regrets. I don`t say that to shame you. I say that because you deserve a better life.
PINSKY: Let`s take a call.
Susan in West Virginia -- Susan, what did you want to say to Karen?
SUSAN, CALLER FROM WEST VIRGINIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
SUSAN: I would like to say, Karen, women like you make me sick. In my opinion, you suffer from a mental illness that I call (INAUDIBLE) married man you can -- the only service you provide is clients for the health department and clients for the divorce attorneys. I know people like you and they end up old and alone. You`re nothing better than a prostitute.
PINSKY: Susan, were you cheated on by your husband? You have a good bit of energy here.
SUSAN: No, I just don`t believe in that. She`s nothing but a prostitute is all she is.
BIENNE: I think what`s interesting is Susan says what so many women are feeling right now and we feel threatened because we are at home, with our husbands, and we work so hard to keep our marriages going. It`s hard work.
And somebody comes in, like a cuckoo and thinks they can steal another woman`s good work.
PINSKY: But this -- let me play devil`s advocate for one second on Karen`s side. These are guys out there fishing in the Internet space for a Karen. I mean, she`s making a point, if it`s not Karen, there`d be -- she said, this is the number she said, 300,000 other Karens out there waiting to, let`s be clear, Susan`s words, service these guys.
PINSKY: Is something -- we need to talk to men, I think, don`t we? It is not the women`s fault.
BIENNE: I`m not blaming Karen. But what I`m saying is that she should respect herself more because every time you go and sleep with somebody, what do you do? You`re giving your body away. She said it suits her lifestyle.
So, she wants to sleep with someone. She`s an old enough woman to know what she wants to do. But it doesn`t mean you have to wreck families.
That is where there is a complete disconnect. I want Karen to own up and recognize --
PINSKY: Well, let`s hear what she said. Let`s have her own up.
Karen, what do you say to Simone?
MARLEY: Well, you completely are missing the point. This is a huge problem I have been a serial mistress. Everyone misses the point.
In the years I`ve been doing this, I have never once broken up a marriage. I don`t want to break up any marriages. I have never, and will never break up a marriage.
BIENNE: What about the children?
MARLEY: Simply because I don`t particularly want the man -- if the marriage isn`t breaking up, I`m not breaking up the children. I don`t particularly want somebody on my doorstep with a suitcase saying I left my wife. I would be mortified if that happened, because that`s not why I started this for.
It`s not about self-respect. I have a huge amount of self-respect for myself and I don`t necessarily sleep with all these men. This is the problem that everyone has, that they can`t understand that men don`t necessarily need sex for it to constitute an affair. To a lot of women, a text message can constitute an affair.
PINSKY: Well, now, wait a minute, OK, Karen --
MARLEY: -- doesn`t have to be like Tiger Woods.
PINSKY: Karen, hold on. I have to take a break. I appreciate what you`re saying.
That goes at the core of the difference in how men perceive these issues. Women are terribly threatened by emotional affairs, much more upset by that, men are much more prone to physical affairs and are more upset if their wife should participate in a physical affair. But that`s a separate issue.
We`re going to talk to Karen and Simone here. And we`re going to take your calls. The calls are pouring in right now. So, I`m anxious to hear what my viewers have to say.
Now, we know that countless high profile American men have had affairs. Karen singles out one of them, Karen who`s been there, singles out one of them who is unforgivable. I don`t know who it is. But I want to find out. She`ll tell us when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
BILL CLINTON, THEN-U.S. PRESIDENT: Indeed, I did have a relationship with Miss Lewinsky that was not appropriate. In fact, it was wrong.
JOHN EDWARDS, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: There is no question that I`ve done wrong. And I take full responsibility.
ANTHONY WEINER, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: I`m here today to again apologize for the personal mistakes I have made. And the embarrassment I have caused.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The assumptions are dark. Rielle Hunter as a manhunter, destroyer of marriage, destroyer of John Edwards. How do you want yourself defined?
RIELLE HUNTER, JOHN EDWARDS` FORMER MISTRESS: First and foremost, I`m a mom. Rielle Hunter is a mom. And I`m also a woman who fell in love with a married man. I`m not the first woman who has done that and I`m not going to be the last.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Obviously Rielle Hunter. So, Karen, my guess is John Edwards. Is that who you found so atrocious?
MARLEY: Yes, it is. And people will probably think I`m quite strange thinking this. But when it comes to an affair, first and foremost, be careful. There is a phrase in England that a lot of people use that says; put something on the end of it.
When it comes to a married man, you do not get caught out like that. It is ridiculous. He should not have done that.
But also I don`t believe that when you`re a mistress, you should fall in love with that man. I never have done that and I never will. If I feel my emotions are getting too involved with a married man, I will break off all contact and I will leave because I do not, under any circumstances, want to break up a marriage. I certainly don`t want to be pregnant.
PINSKY: Well, Karen, just saying it the way you did it occurred to me something really interesting. I`ve been dealing with adolescents and adolescents` health for a long time. And getting them to put something on the tip of it is as hard as getting these serial cheater guys who are basically in an adolescent mindset, mind you. That`s why I`m saying we need to talk to these men.
They can`t even get their act together to put a condom on and they`re out there endangering their family and their wives and everybody. I mean, doesn`t it? To me, it says something about the man.
But let`s go to some calls. Noel in Arizona, what do you got?
NOEL, CALLER FROM ARIZONA: Hey, Dr. Drew. This is Noel. I`m now a pastor. I`ve been in ministry for over 33 year.
At one time when I was in my 20s and 30s, like Karen, I was servicing married women. And I thought I was doing great things. The world called me a stud. But when God got a hold of me, I learned two really big lessons.
Number one, Karen, men and women, your body is the greatest thing you have to give anyone. Value your body, love yourself, don`t be a door mat for somebody to wipe their feet on their way in their home.
Number two is that male or female, you`re not a stud, you`re not something big, I was nothing more than a whore and that`s a fact.
PINSKY: Well, Noel, thank for sharing a story. I think, Simone, that`s your orientation in all this, too.
BIENNE: Yes, very wise words.
PINSKY: Yes. Jacqueline in Texas -- Jacqueline. Hi, Jacqueline.
JACQUELINE, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi. H, Dr. Drew.
JACQUELINE: I just wanted to let Karen know that, you know, if my husband was interested in someone that looked or acted like she does, I would be glad to let him go and, I mean go all the way, to the courthouse. I just couldn`t prep (ph) with it. I -- I`m married, my second marriage. My first husband brought home STDs and it didn`t take me long to leave.
PINSKY: Well, you had a bad run with men.
Karen, what do you say to these women that are -- forget the fact they`re threatened by you, but aren`t you fearful that you`re damaging women, hurting them? I mean, this last caller got an STD. I know you won`t give an STD, you want a condom, blah, blah, blah.
MARLEY: No, I never had an STD in my life.
PINSKY: No, forget that.
MARLEY: I do not sleep --
PINSKY: But you`re still harming these women.
MARLEY: No, but I don`t sleep with all these guys. This is the point I do desperately try to get across. I`m not some kind of whore who is on my back 24/7. I`m incredibly good friends with most of these guys. If I do decide to go further, it is a huge conscious decision to do so.
I don`t do this lightly. I don`t go into having a sexual relationship with anybody lightly because I have a huge amount of respect for myself.
PINSKY: All right.
MARLEY: And these men have to deserve what I have to give.
PINSKY: All right, OK. Here`s the deal. Karen, I`m going to have you stand by. I`m going to bring in a male perspective, somebody who probably would participate with Karen, I would suspect.
Now, one of the questions I might ask in the next segment is that I think there is a belief by some that any man would cheat if they had the opportunity. We`ll ask that question. Call us now, 1-855-DRDREW5.
We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: She calls herself a serial mistress and says, quote, "I don`t want to steal your husband. I just want to borrow him." She`s done with no less than 50 men. This mistress insists she can even help your marriage.
How do we understand affairs? Are they destructive and should you be worried?
All that and your calls right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIE KENT-FERRARO, HUSBAND CHEATED: We started out with, you know, a great courtship and a wonderful family. We had three small children. And then as we got busy, we became kind of like managing partners in our own home. We called it "Life, Inc." You know, I mean, we heeded his work and I did the kids, and then suddenly things started feeling really strange in my own house. And I became very, very suspicious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was a guest on this program who learned her husband was cheating. Ironically -- get this -- her husband was a clinician who counseled married couples. That`s how deep denial can get when people are doing these behaviors. Here he was, somebody who counseled couples on how to have stable intimacy and he himself had sort of sexual compulsions, that sort of thing and had some issues.
Joining me now, Steve Santagati. He is the author of "The Manual" and president of Bad Boys Finish First, Inc., right, Steve? Is that right?
STEVE SANTAGATI, AUTHOR: Yes.
PINSKY: OK, got it.
So, the question before the break was: given the opportunity -- let`s say I had one of those pens that men in black had -- make you forget everything that happened, would all men then cheat?
PINSKY: I don`t think I would.
SANTAGATI: You might not, but every man has a --
PINSKY: You`re calling me not a man.
SANTAGATI: Every other man -- every other man, no, here`s the deal, yes, you too. There is a woman in your psyche that looks a certain way, sounds a certain way, a situation that if that was a perfect storm, I would say most men will cheat.
PINSKY: Let me tell you why not. Let me tell you why not. Let me interrupt you. Because it would be assault on my wife and kids. It would damage them.
SANTAGATI: What if you had a head injury, and all of a sudden, your frontal lobe was completely gone, and now all of a sudden, you had no filter system, and then you feel like, well, you know, I have no guilt.
PINSKY: If I had frontal lobe injury, there is a possibility -- Simone, back me up on this.
SIMONE BIENNE, DR. DREW "LOVELINE" CO-HOST: I love you. You`re so ridiculous.
BIENNE: You are so ridiculous.
SANTAGATI: But you`re a girl.
BIENNE: I`m a woman, not a girl. Now, Steve, I do love Steve, and I think he`s --
PINSKY: Do you like him or like, like him?
SANTAGATI: She likes to hate me.
BIENNE: I love to hate him because he talks utter --
BIENNE: I`m not a guy. Now, listen, let`s talk one at a time. I know deep beneath that metal heart, there is a humping heart.
SANTAGATI: I`m a good guy, but I`m being truthful.
BIENNE: Men know, the more intelligent a man is, the less likely he is to cheat, because he values monogamy, and he knows the drawbacks of monogamy, which is why -- my husband don`t cheat.
PINSKY: Her husband is included with me. That`s good.
PINSKY: So, hang on, Karen, go ahead, I want you to ring in on this. You`re saying no to that -- Karen.
KAREN MARLEY, DATED OVER 50 MARRIED MAN: I`m absolutely saying no to that. I believe every single man on the planet is capable of cheating. If a spaceship came down with his perfect woman on it, and no one was ever going to find out, he would do it, nobody would know about it, and he would carry on with his life, absolutely 100 percent.
And I completely agree that we are just being realistic. There are so many people are in denial. And to be honest, there are so many wives who are in denial who think that their perfect husbands would never do this. Trust me, they do.
And majority of the men I date are chief executives, managing directors, hugely intelligent men because I don`t date trash. And these guys are intelligent and still cheating and cheating more than once.
PINSKY: Got it, Karen. Steve, you`re vindicated. Jamie in California, what do you got for us, Jamie?
JAMIE, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. This is Jamie. I just wanted to comment on one of the ridiculous things I heard the serial mistress say that she doesn`t break up families and doesn`t harm the children because they don`t have to get a divorce.
Does she really believe that when the wife finds out, they`re not going to argue? Maybe the wives do stay with the husband, but there is arguing. There is a non-trust going on and that`s not going to affect the children?
PINSKY: Hold on, Jamie. Steve wants to respond -- Steve.
SANTAGATI: Hey, listen, I`m not condoning anything Karen does. As a matter of fact, Karen, if you really want to think about it, darling, you`re like the crack dealer waiting on front of the school. You`re just delivering what these guys want and you know it. It`s not my problem that he has a drug addiction. I`m just a supplier, man.
I didn`t tell them to get high on it. You know what you`re doing. You know that it`s wrong. And let me tell you something else, I know you`re putting yourself on television. You knew you were going to get the sort of abuse, but you got to keep it simple.
The reason you`re hanging out with married guys and the reason they`re sleeping with you is because you`re what`s called an easy kill. There`s no work there. OK? They know you signed up for this website, you`re a dead wringer.
It`s like a lion looking at a pack of gazelles, which one is limping, you`re the one limping, that`s what they`re going to take.
PINSKY: Hold on a second. You`re right about that one -- women have the opposite. The injured one they`re turning away from. Simone, help us kind of refrain this a little bit where people can take some home some information, which is what -- when people stray from the primary intimacy, what`s the cost?
BIENNE: The cost of the marriage.
PINSKY: The primary intimacy is here. Somebody strays. What`s the cost over here?
BIENNE: It will ruin --
PINSKY: Even as ruin it, it`s like a bank account. It sort of diminishes, right?
BIENNE: Exactly. You have to invest in your relationship. The more you put in, the more you put out. And, if you don`t invest in your relationship (INAUDIBLE) do invest in your relationship, keep your eye on your relationship, having fun. Relationships work at the beginning because we`re giving each other so much attention.
We do have time, we can do this. We do need to look after our guys, because the one thing I know from working these couples is, men are very, very sensitive. And often they don`t know how to act with their emotions so that they can act out and then get into situations instead of expressing anger with their wives, they`ll go and sleep with someone, instead.
PINSKY: OK. Very quick. I got to get to Kara there. Kara, my caller, real quick, you have a question for us, Kara?
KARA, WASHINGTON: Yes, I do. Hi, Dr. Drew. In my late teens and early 20s, I had a couple flings, not serial at all, with married men, and now, I`m having a really, really hard time forgiving myself for my past. I feel disgusted.
KARA: And I definitely feel like it`s completely wrong.
PINSKY: All right. Listen, I would say -- was your dad a cheater or something?
PINSKY: Yes. How magically I knew that. You were acting out something that was done to you. You were taking it out on other people. You were a kid. You worked it through, be of service, be a good person, go forward, learn from this. People do horrible things in their young adult life, sometimes. Steve is still doing it --
SANTAGATI: No, no. But you don`t live in the past. The past is gone. There`s no sense holding that. You just deal with today. That`s a part of you that should not be affecting you anymore. Let it go and stop thinking about it.
PINSKY: All right. Listen, I`m making an executive decision here. You guys are all so good. Karen, I appreciate, Karen, you hanging in with us. Steve, Simone, always. So, what I`m going to do is continue this conversation.
Normally, I go into sort of mixed bag, but I`m going to do another break with you guys. So, we`ll continue with this conversation and your calls after the break.
PINSKY: We`re back. We`re continuing our conversation about mistresses, cheating, and marital secrets. Karen, I want to thank you for withstanding the punches. I want to give you a chance to, you know, speak back to the viewers. What do you say to these people that are attacking you?
MARLEY: Well, I think I just like to change the opinion that the mistress is destructive. We`ve got an opinion that mistress is going close. We expect boil (ph) bunnies. We expect wrecked relationships. We expect death (ph) in the past. A mistress doesn`t have to be destructive. I know everybody will be screaming at the TV now and saying that I`m a whore, I`m disgusting, I have no self-respect.
I absolutely love who I am. I love what I do. And I love the fact that I`ve made a conscious decision to live my life how I want to live it. This is not about what I look like. This is not about who I`m dating. This is about the fact that these guys are cheating, and I`m the single one. And none of the relationships have ever been in have been destructive.
I`ve broken up none of the relationships. I`ve quite a lot of these guys, and Simone will agree with me, men are very bad at talking about their problems. They won`t talk to their best friends about their relationships. They won`t talk to their family.
PINSKY: Now, you and Simone are in complete agreement.
MARLEY: So, they`ll talk to me.
PINSKY: Well, I`m not sure that -- she`s saying they shouldn`t be talking to you, but Steve pointed out that it`s not just men that cheat.
SANTAGATI: No, it`s women -- first of all, the best kept secret, women have been -- for over the years is that they`re doing us a favor by having sex. You are just -- women are just as bad when it comes to cheating. How do I know? Because women, married women come on to me all the time, especially here in Los Angeles.
I just think it`s actually part of the culture. So, you are sexual beings. For every Karen, there is a Bob that`s going to sleep with a married woman. I know how they are. They are. It basically -- the fact of the matter is, it boils down to what we are as animals. We want to have sex, and we get bored having sex with the same person over and over again.
PINSKY: I think we can strive for something better. As Joe Rogan (ph) said, we`re just monkeys who talk. Let`s go to call. Bridget in Alabama -- Bridget.
BRIDGET, ALABAMA: Yes, Karen, I`m a child of a woman like you, and don`t kid yourself that your actions won`t have consequences, because in time, if you keep this up, they will, and then, you may have a product like me who spend the first two years of my life in an orphanage.
BRIDGET And thank you for the good old grandmother who took me in. So, don`t kid yourself. And, I think you`re delusional and you`re making excuses and you are, as was mentioned before, I don`t want to use the word, but you are not a good woman. And you give us, women, a very bad name. And regardless that the guys are looking for people like you, well, we all know how guys are.
PINSKY: Well, but that`s what -- that`s why I have Steve to remind us of that. But, thank you for that call. I`ll go to another call. Terry in New York -- Terry.
TERRY, NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew. I`m happy to speak to you tonight.
PINSKY: Thanks, Terry.
TERRY: I have a couple of questions for Karen.
TERRY: I want to know, did her family, her parents, teach her values in life? And did she come from an abusive family? Because she has no self-esteem.
PINSKY: Well, let`s ask her. Let`s ask her. Give her a chance. So, Karen, did your family or would they wring you in on this or would they have issues with this or were you in an environment where your parents cheated?
MARLEY: No, neither of them cheated. My mom and dad were married for 35 years before suddenly my dad died very early. And they were head over heels in love. They fell in love, they got married after three weeks. There was no abuse, there was no anger, there was love. Nothing but love in our house. And from that --
PINSKY: But Karen, you sound --
MARLEY: I have come away knowing that I would want nothing but the best if I wanted to settle down in a relationship.
PINSKY: Right. And you were married at one time, right? Did your actual marriage life somehow disappoint you miserably relative to what your fantasy was a marriage should be?
MARLEY: Not at all, no. We were incredibly adult about it. We were together for 11 years. And in those 11 years, we became incredibly good friends. We were best friends by the end where we were best friends from the start, obviously, but we were best friends at the end, and we realized that we were better as friends than we were as husband and wife.
We were both unhappy with how the relationship had turned out. Neither of us cheated. There was no anger, there was no animosity. We were good friends then, we are still good friends now. He`s remarried and I stay in touch with him.
PINSKY: All right. Simone, you want to ring in?
MARLEY: So, there`s absolutely no anger there. We were just adult enough to part ways.
PINSKY: All right. Got it, Karen. Got it.
BIENNE: Karen, I have met men and women like you, actually, after there has been an unexpected death in the family that it can distort how you are in relationship thereafter. And I`m just wondering and I`m going to throw this out and rather than sort of argue, I`m giving this to you from my professional opinion.
I`m wondering whether the loss of your father was so incredibly great that it hurt you and pained you so much that you wouldn`t dare and want to be in love with somebody, another man again.
PINSKY: Steve is shaking his head in disbelief. I agree with you. I`ve seen the same thing. I have to go to a call. Donna in Massachusetts -- Donna.
DONNA, MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
DONNA: I just wanted to tell you a quick story about --
PINSKY: Donna, I`m sorry I`m interrupting everybody. My timing is really tight here. So, it`s going to be very short, like 20 seconds.
DONNA: OK. I`m separated from my husband. We both live with other people, and I`m cheating with my husband. So, I`m the mistress, and it`s wonderful. He treats me great. I get all his attention. The sex is fabulous. So, I can see it from both sides.
PINSKY: You`re cheating with your husband? Is that what she`s saying?
DONNA: Yes, I am.
SANTAGATI: She broke up or she got divorced. I think she`s with somebody else, and now, she`s fooling around with her husband.
PINSKY: All right. Steve, close this out, then I go to a break. What do you want to say?
SANTAGATI: I just think that he was not sin, let them cast the first stone. I think it`s great that people like Karen come on these shows because we get to see what people are thinking and doing, not what we want them to do, not what we wish they would do, but this is life, folks. This is who we are as human beings.
PINSKY: OK, Steve, Simone and I are very sad.
PINSKY: You`re making us very sad.
SANTAGATI: Come on!
PINSKY: Steve, I appreciate you always. And Karen, I really appreciate you coming in. I hope you`ll come back. We`re going to clean this -- I`m going to take a shower and clean the slate here, mop the floor, and I`m going to take your global questions, any topics, 855-373-7395 after the break.
PINSKY: Remember now, we are just three nights away from the Daytime Emmy Awards. Ironically enough, three nights away from the Daytime Emmys. Join HLN this Saturday at 8:00 p.m. eastern time. You can watch the awards and all your favorite soap and daytime stars live. I`ll be there. There`ll be a cool red carpet.
Showbiz will be there, doing the interviews, and, I just insist you be there. Everyone who`s watching me tonight, be there on Saturday night.
Now, more of your calls. Kristin in Illinois. Kristin, what do you got?
KRISTIN, ILLINOIS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
KRISTIN: I am 21 years old female, and I have been dating my boyfriend for about two years, and we have very opposite sex drives. Mine is really high and his is really low. We`re having difficulty reconciling this without someone being rejected or hurt or angry. And wondering if you had any advice on that.
PINSKY: Say it again. He`s getting hurt and angry? Is that right?
KRISTIN: I`m the one whose feeling like rejected when he says he`s tired.
PINSKY: Oh, you`re the one with the higher sex drive?
PINSKY: Oh, goodness. You know, mismatched sexual desire, that`s called. It`s very common. Majority of relationships deal with that in one way or another. I think you`re aware for the most part the mismatch is with the male having excessive and the female partner maybe not being able to keep up.
But it`s not that uncommon to have what you guys have here. I always have to ask, what are you looking for and what is he willing to provide? How many times a week?
KRISTIN: I would be happy with, I don`t know, four times a week.
KRISTIN: And he`s probably more, like, two.
PINSKY: Two. So, that`s pretty close. Three would be a compromise. I mean, I think the important thing to get across to him is to understand you feel hurt and rejected. These are tender feelings associated with this. Very intimate thing.
And if he`s just sort of blowing off and give you empty kinds of excuses, and let`s be clear with you, you had no sexual abuse or anything like that, is that not in your past?
PINSKY: OK. So, there`s nothing about your sexuality that has been damaged or harmed or makes it especially tender for you?
PINSKY: OK. So this is -- listen, you guys are -- this is not a big problem, OK. You`re nearly there. Tell him to step it up. Just step it up a little bit. Three times, you can be happy. It really does -- you know -- stage manager is shaking your head at me. Why? What did I say wrong?
No. The fact is, he can step it up a little bit. You`re not asking twice a day or every day. You`re saying three times from two times, fine, step it up, and I won`t feel so rejected, but the important thing is for him to understand that you do feel very tenderly wounded if he rejects you.
It`s not something that`s just dismissive. You got to talk about the feelings associated with this. More of your calls about anything after this.
PINSKY: Back to the phones. Tyrell in Missouri. Tyrell? Tyrell, you there? I`m not hearing Tyrell. Can anybody help me with that? Let`s go to Ann in New York. Tyrell is not there. Oh, there`s Tyrell. Tyrell, you`re with us?
TYRELL, MISSOURI: Yes.
PINSKY: What do you got?
TYRELL: Yes. I was wondering, if every man in the world was faithful, what would the other women do?
PINSKY: The women -- hmm, let me think about that. You mean there are more women than men in the world. How about they stay with guys that are widowers or single or, you know, because not every man is having relations with one woman when they`re younger, you know what I`m saying?
PINSKY: I`m just doing the math.
TYRELL: Yes. I`m an African-American male, so --
PINSKY: What does that mean?
TYRELL: We have more -- you know, we have people who are, you know, dead or in jail. So, there`s kind of a shortage of, you know, men. If you -- what would you do if every man was faithful to his particular woman?
PINSKY: Well, Tyrell, again, I`m a big believer in investing in that primary intimacy, but you bring up a really interesting point. There is a book out there written by a Stanford law professor called, "Is Marriage for White People?"
It talks about this very issue, that a lot of African-American men are not available to African-American women because they`re in jail or there is -- there is stuff going on. So, let me ask you about you, are you relating to a lot of women?
TYRELL: No, sir. I`ve been married.
PINSKY: So, you`re cool --
TYRELL: I`ve been married for 11 years, but I`m just saying. I`m just asking a question. I have a lot of guys -- a lot of friends out there who, you know, have that situation and I`m, like what would they do? What would the women do? What would they do?
PINSKY: I would just say there`s plenty of single guys to go around, but I really appreciate you asking that question. By the way, guys, I`m just saying, so that makes it all OK (ph). Ann in New York. What do you got, Ann?
ANN, NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Ann.
ANN: I`m wondering if you`re familiar with vulvodynia or vulvar vestibulitis?
PINSKY: Well, vulvodynia means painful, you know, genitalia, and vestibulitis is sort of a specific inflammatory thing. And here`s a thing about vulvodynia with me is that very few women that are diagnosed with vulvodynia -- and it`s usually manifest as painful intercourse, right? It`s called dyspareunia.
ANN: It`s excruciating. Yes.
ANN: In a severe case (ph).
PINSKY: All right. And let me just say, very few women are oftentimes I find that women with vulvodynia are never asked the question, did you have sexual abuse in childhood. So, let me ask that question.
ANN: I did not, no.
PINSKY: OK. Because --
ANN: I do have interstitial cystitis and it all started there with the bladder inflammation.
PINSKY: OK. And again, interstitial cystitis is kind of a grab bag diagnosis. It basically means inflammation of the urinary bladder, of the bladder. And so, it`s -- these diagnoses are -- and let me ask you another question no one ever asked. Do you do a lot of -- this is going to sound crazy, but do you do spinning or bike riding?
ANN: No, no.
PINSKY: OK. Because I found that also associated with this very commonly and people never ask those questions. Then people -- you got the real deal. When you have the real deal, it is terribly frustrating. It is something that`s -- a lot of ink is spilled over and there`s a lot of, you know, anti-inflammatories and treatments and this and that.
And it`s often very unsatisfactory. Are you on a birth control pills? The other thing I found that sometimes helpful of this.
ANN: No, I`m not. Actually, they discouraged that with that so I stopped it years ago.
PINSKY: Right, because you can get what`s called atrophic vaginitis from that as well. Women, sometimes, don`t think about this. If they`re on a birth control pill, it`s high on progesterone. It can cause irritation of the lining of their genitalia and they`re not aware of it because of estrogen deficiency.
So, other than those little clues that I`ve, sometimes, used to help women that maybe aren`t asked all the questions, I think, they should be asked, I got nothing for you. Keep working with a doctors and gynecologist. I`m sorry. It`s a very frustrating problem.
Thank you all for watching. I`ll see you next time. Nancy Grace starts right now.