Return to Transcripts main page
Sandusky Case Goes to Jury; The Reality of Cancer
Aired June 21, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Jerry Sandusky`s lawyer says 10 alleged victims do not add up to one guilty defendant. What do you think? The jury is in deliberations now. I`m going to go inside how their minds are thinking presently.
And was Sandusky`s own son ready to testify against him? Why didn`t he?
Plus, reality star Diem Brown faces an incredible challenge. She beat ovarian cancer when she was just 22. Now, it has recurred and she is desperately fighting to preserve her eggs so she can one day have a baby.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Welcome to the program.
Tonight, the fate of 60-year-old Jerry Sandusky is now in the hands of a jury. Will the former Penn State football coach spend the rest of his life in prison? The state insists Sandusky is a child predator but the defense says he is innocent and that the alleged victims were actually coached by the police and some were motivated by money.
Joining us is attorney Lisa Bloom, legal analyst for -- is it avo.com?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Avo.com.
PINSKY: Avo.com, and author of "Swagger".
Also, Mike Galanos, HLN anchor. He`s in Bellefonte, Pennsylvania.
Mike, tell us what went down in the courtroom today.
MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR: It was really just high emotions. You kind of touched on it.
Joe Amendola started for the defense. He was very folksy, Drew. He stood in front of the jury, his theme, a refrain he had, a mantra almost, said it about a dozen times this does not add up. It does not make sense.
Here`s an example, you mentioned a money grab. That`s what he is trying to say, these accusers are in it for money, singling out victim number one. He had a neighbor, this was during the actual case come in and say, well, he heard victim one`s mom say we are going to get a house out of this and victim one said he was going to get a nice car out of this.
And then today, Amendola looked at the jury and said, does that sound to you like a child abuse victim? It doesn`t add up, it doesn`t make sense.
That`s where he went on the other side, the prosecutor, you know, his best punch in all of this sat accusers` testimony in that courthouse behind me, Drew, excruciating, heart-wrenching testimony. And, at the end, he stood behind Jerry Sandusky. He is address the jury, pulls back, stands behind Sandusky and says he knows he did. You know he did it. These kids can`t get their souls back. Find him guilty on all counts and that`s the way it wrapped up.
You talk about what is going on in the mind of the jury, a lot of powerful stuff.
PINSKY: That`s heavy, Mike. My understanding is also Sandusky`s adopted daughter there was and sobbing in the courtroom. Was that when the prosecution hit him so hard or was that just throughout the afternoon?
GALANOS: Throughout the afternoon. There was also some people, some of our colleague who have a different advantage damage point of Dottie Sandusky, that she was red in the eye, red in the face. She was emotional as well.
So, it`s all a part of what is going on in the hearts and minds to of the major players.
You know, Drew, I chance to talk to one of the victims` moms, she wants to remain anonymous. I just asked her, how are you doing through all this?
And she said she is not watching any of it. She`s not listening to any of it. She was inside that courtroom. She is thinking there is going to be a conviction. She is confident.
One last note, what was it like to see your son testify? And she said it was excruciating, not just the testimony but to see the picture of her son as a little boy when these crimes were allegedly taking place. She said he looked like a baby to me. He looked like he was 5. There he was as a young man pouring out his heart in front of the court.
PINSKY: Very intense. Very intense. Mike, thanks for that report.
Lisa, it seemed to me this case went quickly, compared to what we`re seeing here in California. What occurred to me was explain it had, it wasn`t much of a defense.
PINSKY: Is it that, inadequate defense or have an appeal in mind, or they were rushing to get through this case?
BLOOM: Well, an attorney would be very foolish to rush through a defense hoping for an appeal, tough put all of your evidence in the record, that is what you use as the basis for an appeal. I can only conclude they didn`t put up much of a defense because they didn`t have much of a defense.
I mean, this is a very serious case, 10 potential victims in this case. He is looking at many years, probably the rest of his life behind bars. So, if they had something to put on, they should have put it on, he had very skilled attorneys.
So, I can only conclude he didn`t have a lot to defend himself with.
PINSKY: Wow, that`s rough.
Let`s go and see what the callers with a tonight ask us.
Jon in California. Jon?
JON, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hey, Dr. Drew.
JON: Sandusky`s legal defense calling the victims liars and blaming them, that is just really disgusting.
BLOOM: Common though.
PINSKY: Is that right?
JON: Yes, very common. With Sandusky, did his narcissism keep him from making a plea deal or how does that work?
PINSKY: What do you think?
BLOOM: Well, 95 percent of case does end in plea deals and it is always surprising when they don`t. This is a high-profile case, too, but this is a 68-year-old man. If he took any deal, we have to spend some time behind bars.
Look, either he is innocent, which we all have to keep our minds open to that possibility, in which case he did the right thing by going to trial.
Or he`s guilty and he`s got so much ego that he said, I`m not going to plea. I`m going to beat this thing. I`m going to attack eight different men who came in and said, I molested them as children. But that`s a lot to take on, eight different people.
PINSKY: Let me ask then, if my kid were just in a shower with a man getting soaped up, wouldn`t that be a legal violation of some type? Wouldn`t I have a case just --
BLOOM: Probably. Well, you know, it wouldn`t be child molestation, it has to be touching.
BLOOM: Soaping, and now we`ve got some touching, with intent, with some sexual intent going on.
BLOOM: But what you are saying most people find just showering creepy enough.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
BLOOM: And he admits to that.
PINSKY: Yes. And they go, what`s the big deal?
BLOOM: Eight accusers here, Drew. And, look, maybe you can take one out and say add monetary motive. Another had inconsistent cities in his testimony. But eight, really?
Because usually people lie in the other direction, real victims say, no, I wasn`t molested, who wants to go into a case like this? Who wants to be a part of something like that?
PINSKY: They feel so ashamed. That`s right.
Kim in California. What do you got, Kim?
KIM, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: You know, that just makes they sick. And I just -- you know, I mean, I just can`t imagine how many more victim there maybe. I mean, it`s like, after -- you know, the closing arguments and they`re in the deliberation, I mean, I just was praying they were going to come back, please let them come back with a guilty verdict.
You know, my heart just hurts for all these victims.
PINSKY: That`s great question, Kim, which is this going to be a quick turnaround? Are they likely to --
BLOOM: I think it will be.
PINKSY: Like tomorrow?
BLOOM: Well, yes, I would say so. I think this is going to be about the credibility of the victims and that`s the main issue here.
And keep in mind that this is not a televised trial. We`ve all talked about it, but we haven`t seen the victims testify, only the jury has. So, they have to weigh that over, and that`s a big issue.
But other than that, it`s not that complicated of a case. It`s really not. He didn`t take the stand.
PINSKY: I feel like Kim does, I feel hurt.
BLOOM: Yes. Yes. I also want to say for victims of sexual abuse, one in four women out there are victims of sexual abuse, this is a very painful experience. Many people relieve it by watching cases like this and my heart really goes out to that group.
PINSKY: Nice point, Lisa.
All right, next up, several jurors in this trial have ties to Penn State. We wonder -- you got to wonder could that impact the jury or the verdict? Consultants take us inside the mind of this jury when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATTY COBLE, FORMER VOLUNTEER, THE SECOND MILE: You know, it`s Jerry Sandusky and these kids are so excited. So you know, you see kids with him, but you see Jerry Sandusky Jerry with his arm around a young boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOYCE PORTER, FRIEND OF JERRY SANDUSKY: He was like a father figure to a lot of these kids. You know, he helped them take a shower. Who knows how old this boy was? And you go to the YMCA guy and in the locker room after swimming and there`s women naked in the locker room there taking showers. So what`s the difference?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is a friend of the Sanduskys who testified as a character witness. To me, she was one of the most bizarre players in this whole drama. She went out and said you, well, he helped so many thousands of kids. I mean, let`s -- you know --
BLOOM: We heard that in other case. He didn`t molest all of them. What kind of defense that?
PINSKY: We all shower naked with little kids, aren`t we? Of course, yes.
BLOOM: Absolutely not.
PINSKY: OK. I want to welcome Susan Constantine. She is a jury consultant.
Susan, the Penn State football program obviously is -- well, to say it is beloved in that community is an understatement. Will that affect the jurors?
SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT: I don`t believe it will because really this affects everyone, whether they are affiliated with Penn State, whether their children have gone to college there, they themselves have gone to college, this is a community that really supports Penn State.
I can see it being -- coming from both ends, being people disgusted by the fact that, hey, you are representing Penn State, how dare you? On the other hand, I want to protect my image. My children went there. How is that going to look on a resume?
PINSKY: And, Susan, Lisa was saying that it`s really the credibility of the witnesses that are what is on trial here effectively. How do you think the jurors are going to process this and do you agree it is going to be a rapid turn around and a --
PINSKY: -- we are going to hear something tomorrow?
CONSTANTINE: Well, I think that, first of all, this is going to be very hard for anyone to step over. The fact that this is a very difficult case, you are dealing with a sexual battery cases like this sexual molestation. This shatters the hope of everyone.
And, quite frankly, I do think they are going to come back with a fairly quick verdict, and I think they are going to find Sandusky guilty.
PINSKY: Let`s go to all couple of calls.
Diane in Canada. Diane, you have a question.
DIANE, CALLER FORM CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
DIANE: I was sexually abused by my father for 13 years and my mother never knew. And he also -- I also charged him. And the blame game always happens in court.
DIANE: I was -- I was really the one put on trial.
PINSKY: Diane, let me ask you this interrupt you and say --
PINSKY: People are asking, how could Dottie Sandusky not know something like this was going on? In your mom`s case, it sounds like she had no idea or didn`t want to know.
DIANE: Well, there`s a whole big issue of secrecy.
DIANE: And my father threatened me.
DIANE: You know, for telling and that.
DIANE: So you have to be such a secrecy kind of thing where he`s going do it where nobody`s going to find him or they are not going to be able to get away with it.
PINSKY: Right. Of course, the kids feel responsible, like they are the ones that caused this to happen, the perpetrators play on that.
BLOOM: Absolutely. You know, look, if this happened, she had to have known. She had to have shut her eyes to it.
PINSKY: Do you think?
BLOOM: Are you kidding? This many people over number of years?
PINSKY: I have seen some pretty good perpetrators. They can hide a long periods of time. I mean, this guy build his whole life around it.
BLOOM: However, you know what? There`s so much anger online and social media at Dottie Sandusky. Let`s not lose sight if he did it, who the real perpetrator is? It`s him, not her.
Maybe she closed her eyes, maybe she was negligent and not following up, maybe she heard something, she didn`t follow up. And mothers need to do that.
BLOOM: But if he did it, he is 100 percent responsible.
PINSKY: I want to point out how women absorb so much. She is not the perpetrator yet we are going to blame her.
BLOOM: Good for you can the caller, for charging your dad. Good for you.
PINSKY: Yes, but come to your own defense so important.
Susan, do you think Dottie played significant role for the jury?
CONSTANTINE: You know what? They`re going to wonder why in the world that she couldn`t have heard those screams from its basement, why she could have been so naive to the fact that those children are even -- been down there in the basement, would be disappearing, 50 to 100 times.
CONSTANTINE: It just doesn`t make sense. This person really closed an eye to it.
But one of the things I wanted to mention to you, Dr. Drew you is that since the fact we are deeming with nine, 10 victims here, just the mere fact those numbers, it`s the emotion that behind all this, when that jury - - even the people in the galley, when they are moved to an emotion to feel it, that is affecting the jury and that`s going to affect the outcome of their decision.
PINSKY: Vera in Washington. Real quick.
VERA, CALLER FROM WASHINGTON: Absolutely. Hello, Dr. Drew, thank you for the opportunity.
PINSKY: Hi, Vera. My pleasure.
VERA: Listening to the other callers, I -- I really feel like -- I have been married. I know when my husband`s up out of bed. I have found him down there on the computer many nights.
And after being married for 46 years, you have woke up at some point in 46 years and caught him in the act of this, I feel like covering it is up just as guilty as he is. Not coming forward.
And you can only hide for so long. God will shine his light in the darkness and that is the truth.
PINSKY: Thank you so much for that comment. Thank you, Susan. Thank you, Lisa.
Next, I want to address some breaking news. Sandusky`s adopted son is now saying he was a victim as well, but did not take the stand. Lisa and I will be right back to address this.
PINSKY: OK. I want to get to some breaking news today. One of Jerry Sandusky`s adopted sons -- this is actually bombshell -- he admitted today he, himself, his adopted son who had been denying this all along, he now says he, in fact, was sexually abused by his father, his adopted father.
His attorneys confirm that Matt Sandusky was ready, in fact, to testify against his father. He met Sandusky through the foundation, the foundation that Sandusky was running at the age of 7. He was formally adopted in that family at 18. He is now 33. He is confirming and met with attorneys that he, himself, had been sexually abuse.
Lisa, when we say this is a bombshell, I mean --
BLOOM: It really is. That`s a word that sometimes overused in the news business. But this really is.
Considering what`s happening here. Eight men came in and testified Jerry Sandusky molested me. There are two others who didn`t testify who are also part of these charges. Now, right at the moment that the jury is out deliberating, this son comes forward and says publicly he molested me, too, but he doesn`t say that in the courtroom?
Apparently, he had talked to the prosecutors, according to the statement. The prosecutors did not put him on. So I can only conclude, number one, he talk to them too late and they didn`t have a chance to put him on or number two they didn`t want to subpoena him.
Number three, they didn`t think he was credible.
PINSKY: Stop the first two -- why wouldn`t they subpoena him? I mean, why not?
BLOOM: Well, that is a very delegate question. Look, as an attorney, I subpoena people all the time to appear in court and most people don`t want to testify. But too bad, you have to come in and testify that`s why we have subpoena power.
PINSKY: This would have sealed the case possibly.
BLOOM: Possible they made a deal with him, we won`t subpoena you if you talk to us. He was there apparently yesterday ready to testify if his dad testified. And then his dad didn`t testify.
PINSKY: Why are those things linked?
BLOOM: Maybe he was going to respond to something that his dad would have said u who knows. We are speculating a lit bit. We don`t know what went on behind closed doors.
But the prosecution could have subpoenaed him and they didn`t. OK, if they had enough time. Perhaps he got to them too late. I mean, who knows? As you say, he was initially denying that he was molested. Now, he says he was -- but to the media, not in the courtroom.
PINSKY: Or is this a way of muscling Jerry Sandusky off the stand? In other words, if you put him on the stand, we are bringing his son up to say he abused him?
BLOOM: Yes and a lot of observers think that`s why Sandusky himself didn`t take the stand yesterday, because there`s his son, sitting there. What does that mean, right? Both of those men know what that means, and that`s why Jerry Sandusky didn`t testify. That`s a good theory.
PINSKY: One of the weird parts about this though is the son coming forward all of a sudden right now. I don`t understand that.
BLOOM: I`m shocked.
BLOOM: And he comes forward through a statement of his counsel and then he says I want my privacy protected. If he had just gone away quietly, of course, we have had a lot more privacy. I`m sure that every producer in the country is now hounding him trying to get him to come on and do an interview. What happens?
PINSKY: He made the precise move that would prevent him from being private about this. He wanted to make the absolute most significant impact on his privacy, he`s done it.
BLOOM: Only one thing, he wants the jury to know. Now, this is a sequestered jury. They are supposed to be following news reports. But in this day, that`s almost impossible. Everyone has a smartphone. They get news. They can talk to family members on the phone. A family member can suggest something.
So, my belief is the jury will find out about this. Now, will it affect them? They are supposed to only look at the evidence, not supposed to look at news reports, but this is a big, big deal.
PINSKY: So this sequestered so-called jury you think right now knows this information?
BLOOM: I don`t know if they know right now but probably know it very soon if they don`t know it already. Only takes ones of them to learn it and tell the other ones.
PINSKY: Let`s speculate about something else. A bunch of adopted kids, boys are we going to hear from others?
BLOOM: It`s possible.
You know, look, my heart goes doubt this guy if he will have a victim. It is hard for victims, right, and seeing this in a 33-year-old man who even is going back and forth. Imagine how difficult it is for an 11-year- old child.
PINSKY: Let`s paint that picture a little more clearly. He is 33. He loves his adopted father. These victims, particularly when they have a close relationship, actually still love that individual.
BLOOM: That is very common.
PINSKY: Absolutely. And they have been denying it. They feel responsible for it. They feel ashamed of it. Now, they have got to come public in a circus environment.
BLOOM: You know, if any good out of this case, is number one, the bravery of the people that come forward, number two an education for all of us how difficult this issue still is, that we`ve got to come forward, we`ve got to report, we`ve got to be vigilant for people, even in our own families if we think this is going on. We can`t wait for 20 or 30 years to have a trial like this.
PINSKY: And again, a reminder how common sexual abuse is in our country. It is ridiculous.
And when someone is a perpetrator, they don`t just perpetrate on one kid, they perpetrate often on many, dozens or even hundreds. And then a certain percentage of those become perpetrators who perpetrate on does.
BLOOM: We got to break the cycle. I encourage people, come forward, testify, go to court.
Yes, it`s scary, but it`s not impossible. You can do it. And many people do t that`s what you have to do.
PINSKY: Yes. I say the same thing, which is if you are having strange impulses because of a sexual abuse history of your own, get treatment, get help before you hurt yourself or hurt somebody else, because there are treatments to help you out there.
It`s -- once you cross over and start perpetrating, God help you at that point. That`s too late at that point.
Well, I appreciate, Lisa, thank you again for staying.
BLOOM: My pleasure.
PINSKY: We want to get to this story. This has been breaking just now. And this is -- again, a truly, truly a bombshell bit of information. And it is almost hard to process. It is -- this same thing is getting -- is starting to look like it`s as bad as we suspect it was, which is just shattering her.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, reality star Diem Brown had cancer, ovarian cancer once. Now she is fighting it for a second time in her life. She is here with me after the break.
PINSKY: Now every day we see magazines and Web sites covering a so- called glamorous life of reality TV stars. But one reality star is facing the fight of her life.
MTV`s Diem Brown beat ovarian cancer five years ago, but just this week, the 30-year-old announced she is battling cancer again. But she is determined to survive and one day have a baby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIEM BROWN, TV STAR: I have ovarian cancer.
PINSKY (voice-over): Diem Brown was only 22 when she was first diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She had just found fame on the popular MTV show "The Challenge" and it seemed she had it all. Instead, her battle with cancer played out on camera.
BROWN: It`s been about six months of chemotherapy and three people have seen me without my wig. The second I see that muddy pool, I`m freaking out. Damnit, damnit, I have to take the wig off, I`m so pissed, playing the stupid handkerchief, playing with the stupid wig.
All right. Let`s do it, let`s do it. All right. You can hear the shock. Oh.
And then I hear Derrick say, Diem, you look good!
PINSKY: The first time around, Diem admits that she was mostly concerned about lose her signature long blonde hair. This time, she says her doctors have counseled her to think about the possibility of dying but dm remains positive. She still clings to the hope that she can one day be a mother. She is working in a race against time to harvest her eggs before removing the remaining ovary.
She says she beat cancer once and she will beat it again.
PINSKY: Diem joins me now from New York, where she is receiving treatment.
Diem, take us through this journey. Now, how is this, finding out again that you have cancer, different than the first time?
DIEM BROWN, MTV STAR: Well, basically, it was a complete shock. Like, I didn`t understand really that it could come back again. Like I was told the ovary was gone, and then, I just didn`t think it would ever come back again. And so, finding out that you have a second time, it`s like I`ve already done this.
BROWN: I thought I was over it. And so, now, it`s kind of just being able to kind of just push forward. And now, it`s the fact that I only have one ovary left, and they`re going to remove the rest of it. So, now, I have to make sure of freezing eggs and worry about menopause. So, all these things that I wasn`t thinking about the first time.
PINSKY: So, tell me about this, you have delayed your treatment since your diagnosis to do some fertility management? Tell me about that, because it seems -- I first heard that, I thought, oh my God, I got talk to this girl. That sounds dangerous.
BROWN: I got ovarian cancer is the first time at a really, really young age. And so, you know, that`s kind of weird and kind of something that you`re not normally doing. So, having a baby is normal. Sounds, you know, funny to say that, but having a baby is normal. And I wanted something normal.
And yes, being a mom is really important to me, and I want to be able to have my kid. And so, if I can use the technologies that are out there and try to freeze eggs, because six years ago, you couldn`t freeze eggs. You only could freeze embryos. So, now, I have the opportunity to try to freeze an egg. And I want to try. I really, really want to try.
PINSKY: How is that going? Are you getting ovarian stimulation right now?
BROWN: Yes. I`m on the awesome shots.
PINSKY: Yes, aren`t they nice?
BROWN: It was funny because you watch -- oh, yes. They`re super fun. My mood swings are awesome. But it`s funny. You see things on TV like, you know, Bill and Juliana. And you see, you know, the IVF and all these things are being brought to the forefront and because of watching these shows, I knew about it, and that became normal to me.
Like, I hear about more people freezing eggs, more people having problems with fertility. So, you`re hearing about it more. It`s not so embarrassing. So, that`s why I`ve really been public about this and like trying to freeze eggs, because, to be honest, my doctor told me I`m -- if not the first, I`m one of the first current ovarian cancer patients to ever get hormone shots to freeze eggs.
PINSKY: yes. I bet you --
BROWN: And someone has to be the first.
PINSKY: Yes. I bet you had trouble finding somebody even to do it. What we`re talking about here is what needs to happen is this ovary stimulated to produce follicles which are eggs that eventually get fertilized, and the eggs get harvested, and then frozen, and then used at a later date after the cancer treatment is completed. But, how long did you have to delay your cancer treatment do all this?
BROWN: I`m delaying it about a month. And yes. I know that sounds really dumb to most people. But the thing is once that ovary is gone, nothing. I don`t have anything to try. So, if I could try to push it. Like, basically, you know, I`ve already had the surgery, and they have to go back in and they have to remove the other part of the ovary, the last part of my last ovary.
So, if I can try one time to kind of do this cycle, I really want to, because in a weird way, if you think of all the things I have to do. I`m going to have to go through menopause, going to have to have surgery to get that last ovary out, then have to have chemo.
Those are not fun to think about. So, if I can try one little -- sounds weird, but some may find things (ph) about gathering eggs out first, I kind of want to try that.
PINSKY: And I think, again, for purposes of people understanding at home, we really don`t know the full impact of ovarian stimulation on existing ovarian cancer, depending on the cell type she has, and then, you`re delaying your treatment and that`s risky. What I understand, you`re clinging to that piece of help, that piece of normal side. I get that. Let`s take a call, Diem.
Angie in Wisconsin. Angie, you want to ask something.
ANGIE, WISCONSIN: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew. Hi, Diem.
PINSKY: Hi, Angie.
ANGIE: I have a two-part question for you Diem. First, I was wondering what symptoms you were having that caused you to go back to the doctor? And second, I read that for a while, you didn`t know if your symptoms were real or if it was just you being a hypochondriac? And as someone who worried about my health all the time, I`m curious how you knew that the symptoms were -- were, you know, that you needed to worry about them.
PINSKY: It`s a great question.
BROWN: Well, it`s a fantastic question. And to be honest, I actually started having pains back in October. And it was the same -- ovarian cancer is so hard. It`s called the silent killer because there`s really not many testing to find out if you have it until it`s kind of too late. So, I had like bloating after I ate.
I would, you know, I would go in the bathroom, make sure like the only thing that would make it feel better is like a hot bath. So, I started in October, but I got my CA 125 test. And that`s like a tumor marker. And I got that in October, and it was fine. And when you`re kind of -- when you`ve been sick, you like, oh, I had that done, I`m fine now. I`m fine. I`m fine.
But I knew I wasn`t. And then, January rolled around, February rolled around, and I knew I had to go back to my GYN in May. So, I`m like I`ll just wait until then and get a checkup. Ironically enough, I had gotten my pap smear in May and it was fine.
PINSKY: Well, the pap smear doesn`t --
BROWN: A week later --
PINSKY: A week later, go ahead.
BROWN: A week later, I went back and I`m like something is still wrong. And so, I got an internal ultrasound which I really wish more women got on their yearly checkup because internal ultrasounds, they see everything in there, and they saw an eight-inch cyst from hip bone to hip bone.
PINSKY: Right. And Deim, a pap smears don`t usually detect ovarian cancer. The doctor can feel the ovaries and sometimes detect something and then trigger the ultrasound. But yes, you`re right. Ultrasonography would be very, very helpful.
Next, more of this conversation with Diem Brown.
PINSKY: We`re back with MTV reality star, Diem Brown. She was treated for ovarian cancer once, and then five years later, there was a recurrence. And Diem, you`re clinging to the possibility of fertility. I kind of like it. I really -- I admire your courage, though, I worry about the wisdom of it.
Oh, my goodness it makes me very nervous. I hope this is a good bet for you. My question is, how else do you make meaning of all this? You`ve had to deal with cancer twice. I understand you have a charity that is helping you give back.
BROWN: Well, basically, I created -- you know when someone gets married or has a baby, everyone can help them celebrate those moments by going on their bridal registry or their baby registry. My first time I had ovarian cancer, I needed a wig very badly. And I realized all my friends would always ask how can I help?
What can I do? And I realize there`s no resource for patients to kind of list out what you actually need and have your friends and family go on there. So, I created the first ever patients gift registry, and it`s from cancer patients, a car accident victims, and they basically can list the things they need.
I need a wig. I need help paying my hospital bills. So, it`s -- it`s a registry. It`s exactly like a bridal or baby registry but for patients. And I know it`s kind of change the way we look at dealing with illnesses.
PINSKY: It`s a brilliant idea. What is the site again?
BROWN: It` s called "Med Gift."
PINSKY: "Med Gift."
BROWN: Simple words.
PINSKY: Yes. I know it`s a great -- it`s sort of incredible that no one has thought of this but as having been -- now that you have been a patient, you understand that you need things like that that you wish people would help you with. And far more important than any other registry you can imagine, I suppose.
BROWN: What`s so funny about -- I already know why -- I got -- I figured out the idea for "Med Gift" during my first bout with chemo. I`m going into my second and I`ve already have signed up as a patient and I`m already seeing things I want to add, I want to change. Like, already, I want someone to help me give me a shot.
Like, it`s funny, like little things that I`m tweaking, I`m like, all right, I can take this experience and find something that I can make it better for the next person that comes around. And I think for everyone, you always have hurdles in your life, and you can find a way to find some sort of silver lining. It really does help you get through it.
PINSKY: What are your thoughts about this round of chemo? Do you have dread? Are you looking forward to it with a positive attitude? What are you thinking?
BROWN: All right. I don`t think anyone looks forward to chemo.
BROWN: Like, Yay! No. I`m not looking forward to this one, to be honest. But, I`m not going to be a victim about it. Like, I`m -- I know that this one`s serious because it`s reoccurrence, and I have lost friends the second round. So, it scares me. But I`m trying to not think of that right now. I`m thinking of things in stages. And right now, I`m thinking about egg freezing.
And then, I`ll think about menopause. And then, I`ll think about chemo and kicking its butt. But, right now, if I think of everything, I won`t be able to handle it. So, if I can break it off in chunks, then I`m able to process it better.
PINSKY: And you said dealing with things in stages reminds me that you actually haven`t been staged yet. Can you tell me why?
BROWN: I know that I`m kind of weird when it comes to, like, not really taking things, like, seriously. I know that I beat it last time. I know that I beat ovarian cancer last time. So, if I know the stage and it`s the same as last time, I won`t take it as seriously, although, I should because it`s the second time.
If it`s worse, I`m going to get really, really down on myself and scared, more scared. Like, I`m already scared. I have cancer for the second time. I`m already scared. Already there. So, I don`t want to freak myself out anymore. And so, if I can just do -- you can`t do anything differently when you`re on chemo. You have chemo. You`re doing it.
BROWN: So, just keeping your mindset positive, I don`t see the benefit of knowing what stage it is.
PINSKY: You say you`re doing things in chunks and you`re doing this fertility thing first no matter what anyway, so, at least you can keep your attitude positive about that. Let`s go to a quick call. Valerie in California -- Valerie.
VALERIE, CALIFORNIA: Hello. I really apologize for this kind of situation. So, what is the emotional impact hysterectomies and procedures have on women with late stages of ovarian cancer?
PINSKY: Wait, I want to make sure I get your question. Are you saying the impact of simply the surgical piece, itself?
VALERIE: Both. Hysterectomies and procedures.
PINSKY: I`m not sure I quite get the question, but let`s see --
VALERIE: -- the late stages of this cancer (ph).
PINSKY: Do you get what she`s talking about, Diem? I`m not quite sure. I mean, having your ovaries out and going through menopause is not something young women look forward to. Number two, having the uterus out is not something, you know, somebody expects from 30 years old. Maybe Diem, you understand what she`s getting at. You have at it.
BROWN: I`m not sure exactly the question she`s trying to ask, but I know that emotionally, to be honest, yes. It feels like more and more of yourself is getting shift away. Again, that`s why egg freezing is so important to me. I feel like, all right, I have to get another ovary out. It means I`m going into menopause.
And yes -- do you think that`s something you brag about? Oh, yes, I`m in menopause. Like, no, (INAUDIBLE) you talk about. And to be honest, that`s why I want to talk about it more, because I felt shameful at first about it. I felt shameful that I`m like, well, this is something I`m adding to my tool belt. It`s not really something as a plus, but I don`t want that feeling.
And so, I figured if I talk about it, I know there`s other young cancer survivors and other women in their 60s going through menopause that rather than looking at some gross thing, looking at it, you know, a different way, in a way to kind of know what`s going to happen. Like, I don`t know what really happens when you have menopause, so that`s why it scares me, and that makes sense.
PINSKY: Yes. No. It`s stunning to me that you feel ashamed about having something you have no control over, but I think the big issue and I think you`re an example of how to manage this is having the possibility of being a mother taken away from you is a profound issue. It`s a big part of who you are as a woman and you are taking command of that.
So, to answer Valerie`s question, it`s not so much the surgery, it`s what`s being stripped away and what with new technologies you might be able to do about it. And Diem is a great example of someone willing to go to the math (ph) for that. She`s taking risks, but she`s doing it.
Diem, please, we`ll watch you and pray for you and have at it, kick its ass, as you say kick its butt. All right?
BROWN: I will sure do that.
PINSKY: Go do that. I look forward to meeting your baby when you decide to do that, too.
BROWN: Oh, make me cry.
PINSKY: I have no doubt that will be the case.
Now, we`re going to change gears entirely, talk about anything you guys want to talk about. Your calls and questions next.
PINSKY: OK. We are taking your calls and questions beginning with Lee in Ohio -- Lee.
LEE, OHIO: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Lee.
LEE: My husband has been grieving the loss of his son to suicide for a little over a year now.
PINSKY: Oh, my.
LEE: I tried give him space, but he`s lost all interest in any sex. I`m wondering what`s the normal amount of time to wait before I get too concerned.
PINSKY: Well, Lee, let me ask you this, how old was his son?
PINSKY: And was it something completely unexpected, out of the blue or had they been struggling for awhile?
LEE: Completely unexpected.
PINSKY: Oh, my. Is your husband on any anti-depressants now?
LEE: No, sir, he was, but he decided he didn`t want them.
PINSKY: And when did he stop?
LEE: Three months ago.
PINSKY: OK. Now, anti-depressants, particularly the SSRI category, the so-called serotonin reuptake inhibitors will completely shutdown his sex drive very often. So, that could have been part of the problem three months ago.
You might -- if he stopped the medication on his own and he`s still unable to get over the grief at a year, A, he needs to talk to the doctor who`s prescribing the medication to be sure that he doesn`t end up with suicide, himself. Is it your step-son that had killed himself?
LEE: Yes, sir.
PINSKY: Yes. Step-son is a reminder that depression is a potentially fatal illness. And so, your husband now has depression. When grief goes more than six months and becomes intractable, that`s the time to get some help. So, A, he needs to talk to the doctor that prescribed the medication to be sure that he should -- to safe -- to be keep him safe, stay on something.
And then, B, he needs to talk to somebody. And then, C, this is when he needs you most. And part of keeping your relationship together is physical intimacy and you`ve got to remind him of that. So, step it up a little bit right about now, provided that he gets some help as well, OK?
LEE: Thank you so much for your help.
PINSKY: Thanks, Lee. Nathan in New Mexico -- Nathan.
NATHAN, NEW MEXICO: How is it going, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Nathan, going pretty good. It`s been kind of --
NATHAN: You`re the best doctor there is in the world, man.
PINSKY: I feel better suddenly, Nathan. I was going to say it`s been an emotional roller coaster of a day, but thank you for being so kind.
NATHAN: I`ve been watching you since I was like 13 years old, but Dr. Drew, my question is, I`m 23 years old, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, sir.
NATHAN: And I`m going out with this 53-year-old lady, but she does not look her age.
PINSKY: Well, hold on a second, slow down. You`re 23 with a 53-year- old?
NATHAN: Yes, sir. And people don`t -- like they trip out on me because they think I`ve had like some lady says we`ll have had (ph) problems with my mother growing up. I said not at all.
PINSKY: No, I`m tripping out, too, but in a little bit of a different way. So, how long you guys been together?
NATHAN: Next month is going to be our anniversary, one year together.
PINSKY: One year. How is the relationship?
NATHAN: It has ups and gowns, but we`re staying together strong. We kind of fight a lot.
PINSKY: That`s not necessarily good thing, right? I mean, so the relationship isn`t great. And let me -- what has her history been? Has she been married? Does she have kids?
NATHAN: Yes. She has two kids, daughter and son, and it was hard for them at first to accept me, because how younger I was.
PINSKY: They`re ten years older than you, I imagine, right?
NATHAN: Yes, sir. But it`s been a long --
PINSKY: OK. Nathan, here -- let me just give you my just superficial blush with this whole situation. You sound very happy. Its the younger person we always worry about in these kind of May/December unions, whether the male or the female is the younger or the older, we worry about the younger person always because we worry they`re being exploited right?
PINSKY: And we also worry -- which I don`t think is happening here. And we also worry, because I`ll tell you what, oftentimes when older women are with younger men, they just want a boy toy for a while. The boy falls in love with them, they don`t bargain on that. So, you may have given her more than she expected, but OK. You seem happy.
The other thing is, when you`re at such different stages of life, when, you know, at 53, you`re thinking about different things than 23, it`s hard to have a life together.
NATHAN: Yes, because she likes to sleep a lot and that gets me mad sometimes.
PINSKY: Well, that`s the part that makes me worry for you. I just -- sit tonight and think about whether this serves your needs as 23-year-old man right now or whether it`s something you should just say, you know, that was fun, but I got to get on with my life as a man. Thank you for calling, Nathan and your kind comments.
I got to take a break. Back with more calls after this.
PINSKY: Listen up, the Daytime Emmy Awards are just two days away. Watch it live right here on HLN, 8:00 eastern time, this Saturday. Also watch the "Red Carpet Showbiz." They`ll be there live. I will be there. I`m looking forward. Very exciting. Pulling my tuxedo out. I`ve never been to an Emmy Awards.
All right. Let go back to your calls. Ashley in California -- Ashley.
ASHLEY, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Ashley.
ASHLEY: I`m a big fan and I value your opinion a lot, and I was wondering what you thought about couples having sex online.
PINSKY: Couples having sex online.
ASHLEY: Like in front of other people, so, like on those kinds of sort of chat rooms, video chat rooms.
PINSKY: I must be -- I`m less cool than I thought I was. I don`t quite know what you`re describing. You mean like you`re watching somebody do this?
ASHLEY: So, what it is, it`s like a chat room, only, you have video and voice, and so yes, they can see you having sex and you can see them.
PINSKY: Oh, how fascinating. Oh, my God. The length to which people will go with their sexual behaviors with technology, it`s phenomenal. And what`s the question?
ASHLEY: Well, I just was wondering -- see for us, we like very early on in our relationship that we both really -- our fantasies, oddly enough, involves the other person having sex with someone else.
ASHLEY: And we both like this, but we didn`t really want to actually involve another person.
PINSKY: No, because that kind of cuckolding if you actually do that kind of thing. It will be tremendously damaging to your relationship. Please don`t do that
ASHLEY: Right. Right. So, that`s why I was wondering --
PINSKY: You`ve morphed it into sort of a voyeurism kind of thing, right, or exhibitionism.
ASHLEY: Right. Right. A safety kind of thing, because we can just cut off any time we want and nobody is really involved in that.
PINSKY: Let me be honest, I don`t have enough experience with this yet to see where the pitfalls are. On paper, it sounds like, well, what could be wrong with that? I mean, four consenting adults, they don`t really know each other, what`s the big deal? You know, couples roulette or like chat roulette with couples or whatever. I don`t know.
ASHLEY: Right. I mean --
PINSKY: But, I`m going to sign off on it for now, and if I see problems in the future, I`ll let you know, OK?
ASHLEY: OK. Thank you so much.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you. Erica now in Arkansas -- Erica.
ERICA, ARKANSAS: Yes. I have a question.
ERICA: OK. So, when I was about eight years old, I was playing in the playground with my 12-year-old cousin.
ERICA: And then, all of a sudden, he told me to bend over. So, I`m a child. I don`t know what the heck he`s talking about I bend over, and he puts his --
PINSKY: OK. So, you were sexually abused. How old were you then?
ERICA: I was eight. He was 12, but that`s how far it went.
PINSKY: All right. So, then what age did you finally start having sex?
PINSKY: Fifteen. So, are you wondering, did that episode of touching have an effect on you? Is that the question?
PINSKY: Believe it or not, it can. I mean, those sorts of violations can. Not typically, but it can. And you got to wonder if there were more exposures than just that that you got involved with and what you would see, you know, women that get sexually abused, body boundaries violated as under the age of 12, they often become promiscuous later in life. They act out - -
ERICA: That`s exactly what happened to me, but what does that count as him just putting his crotch against mine?
PINSKY: That`s unwanted touching. That`s a sexual assault. But, the fact is, all these things, where we started the show tonight with Sandusky, these are the -- these are why I call them things that keep on giving throughout someone`s life. They change your life forever, and that`s why the Sandusky case is so disgusting and so powerful to me.
Thank you for your calls. Thank you for watching. I will see you next time. Nancy Grace begins right now.