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Interview with Jack Osbourne; New Zimmerman Tapes Released

Aired June 21, 2012 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Tonight, Jack Osbourne, the primetime exclusive. He tells me the shocking discovery that he has MS and how his parents Ozzy and Sharon are taking the news. We'll ask Dr. Sanjay Gupta gives Jack advice for fighting the disease.

Also, witness for the defense, Jerry Sandusky could learn his fate at any moment. I'll talk to a man would tells the story you haven't heard yet until now.

And Trayvon Martin's killer tells his story in his own words.


GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, TRAYVON MARTIN'S SHOOTER: He said, you got a problem now. And then he was here. And he punched me in the face.


MORGAN: George Zimmerman's attorney just met with him in jail. Now Mark O'Mara talks to him exclusively. And Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump reacts.

And "Only in America." The shocking video of bus police. Taunting a grandmother. I'll tell you what I think should happen to them.


Good evening. Jerry Sandusky's fate in the hands of 12 people who began deliberating at 1:12 p.m. this afternoon. We'll bring you the latest on that in a moment.

Also, the clearest look yet at the night that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin in his own dramatic words.

We'll begin tonight with my primetime exclusive with Jack Osbourne who's just revealed he's been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.

Jack, welcome.


MORGAN: You're alive.

OSBOURNE: I am alive.

MORGAN: Let's start with the good news. I know you're fed up with people basically say Jack Osbourne's on death's door.


MORGAN: I took a call from your mother. Obviously, a long-time friend of mine. Appeared with her on "America's Got Talent" for years. A few weeks ago. And she just started doing a preamble then she burst into tears. And she told me what had happened to you. This diagnosis. So I could tell in that moment what a -- for her what a cataclysmic moment it was. Her 26-year-old boy, a son, had been diagnosed with this awful illness.

Tell me how you reacted when you heard.

OSBOURNE: It was really weird because when I started showing symptoms, I was away work -- I was working. And I was at home. And I was telling Lisa what was going on with me, and she was sending me stuff, she was looking at the Internet, well, maybe it could be this.

MORGAN: Your wife?

OSBOURNE: Yes. Yes. And I saw one thing. And it said, you know, loss of vision could be connected with MS. At that point, I just stopped reading. I was, like, not doing this. But when I got home, my vision had worsened. And then I went to the hospital. They began running tests. And that's when the real conversation started coming up about this either could be a stroke or it could be multiple sclerosis. And --

MORGAN: When you hear those words, what do you think?

OSBOURNE: I got a little emotional. Because at that point you don't know. You don't -- unless you have multiple sclerosis or someone you are related to or close to has multiple sclerosis, you really don't know the -- what it actually is because it's so strange in how the disease manifests itself. It's very different with everyone.

So I just -- I got scared. I instantly thought, you know, I was going to end up in a wheelchair, or, you know, you start thinking about Richard Pryor and things like that. You know, like, oh, I just got a death sentence, this is great. But through educating myself and speaking with doctors, you realize it's actually -- it's not as bad in some capacities as people would think.

MORGAN: How are you feeling now?

OSBOURNE: I feel fine. My vision is slowly coming back in my right eye.

MORGAN: Because you had this awful day when you had a little dot. Then it became this cigar-sized dot. And before you know it, you're blind. OSBOURNE: I was -- my center vision had completely gone. If I had one eye close I wouldn't be able to see you. Now it kind of -- looks a bit foggy. But, you know, time will tell how much my vision will improve or not. So it's kind of -- you have to wait until the scarring settles in and kind of go from there.

MORGAN: Your family has had a lot of ups and a lot of downs. I mean your mother, you know, fought cancer. That nearly killed her. Your father had a terrible accident. I remember talking to him about that. You've been -- some people think you've been cursed. I think you're actually -- you've managed to come back from all these things.

What is the family attitude to this? I mean how have your mom and dad been?

OSBOURNE: You know, I think my mom and dad took the news far worse than I did. They were instantly I think in a very, kind of parental kind of way thought, is it our fault, what could we have done? You know, things like that. And it really -- they have a tendency to do that a lot about everything.

MORGAN: Well, your mom is an emotional woman.


MORGAN: For good and bad.


MORGAN: Let's watch a clip of her on "The Talk" because she did get emotional when she was talking about you.


SHARON OSBOURNE, JACK OSBOURNE'S MOTHER: Jack will be here on Wednesday to talk about his diagnosis. But he's great. He's doing really, really good. And I want to thank everyone for all their goodwill and love they've sent.


MORGAN: When you think about your mommy, she's like the lioness, isn't she? And this is one of her -- her own, that she's feeling it very acutely. I could tell that when I spoke to her and I bumped into her at the airport actually a week after we spoke. And she got all emotional again then. I could tell this was -- for her this is like a nightmare.

OSBOURNE: Yes. And that was, what, on Monday, five weeks after she'd -- you know, she's known. So she's having a hard time with it, I think. So it's --

MORGAN: Your sisters?

OSBOURNE: They're -- you know, they're very supportive. They're very -- I don't quite think they completely understand the parameters of the illness. They're not thinking I'm going to drop dead or I'm going to be in a wheelchair. So they're -- you know, but they're being equally supportive in their own ways.

MORGAN: You feel like you've had symptoms for three or four years looking back. You didn't realize at the time it was going on. What kind of things?

OSBOURNE: I guess the most prominent symptom was my legs went numb for two months, something like that. And I just thought I had a pinched nerve. I couldn't -- I mean to the touch, I could feel my legs were there. But it was very -- they had a numb sensation. They were sensitive to hot and cold. And I just completely disregarded it. And I've had issues with, you know, my bladder. Bowels. Every -- you know, and, you know, things like that.

So it's really -- I mean, and if you'd look at the symptoms of M.S., it is so random. It's really quite remarkable how someone figured out that's actually related to one thing.

MORGAN: Your fiance, not your wife. I was mistaken earlier. Lisa. How is she taking it? You just had this little baby girl. She's 2 months old. Beautiful little girl. You know, you're on top of the world. Like nothing could be going better for you. There she is in your arms. And then this happens. Huge blow to you as a small up and coming family.

OSBOURNE: Yes, Lisa, she's incredibly optimistic. Just in her nature she is. She's very caring, very nurturing. And so she was like, hey, you know, let's -- this is not so great news but let's figure out a way to make this a good thing. And, you know, the prescribed lifestyle with -- you know, with having M.S. is minimize stress, exercise regularly, eat right, and, you know, get a lot of sleep.


MORGAN: The best thing --

OSBOURNE: I know. Exactly. I mean like that is like the best kind of recipe to live by for anyone.

MORGAN: You're a positive guy. I've known you a long time. And you are a positive guy by nature. And you're a fighter like all Osbournes. Do you still have moments, though, when you look in the mirror any morning you think why me, why now?

OSBOURNE: Yes, it's usually at night when I'm injecting myself with a giant needle full of, you know, full of stuff that's supposed to, you know, keep me out a wheel chair. You know, I've had a couple moments where I'm a bit like, so it's this -- it's this for the rest of my life or until they come up with something better.

MORGAN: You've been doing lots of big TV work and movies. Last time I spoke to you was with the family, just "God Bless Ozzy Osbourne," brilliant documentary about your dad. You had signed this NBC show deal. And they pulled the plug after this. OSBOURNE: Yes, but --

MORGAN: What was the show?

OSBOURNE: I believe the title when I was involved was "Stars on Stripes."

MORGAN: And you would have been doing what?

OSBOURNE: It was a -- kind of a military-style show, action/adventure, things like that. We'll be sent on missions.

MORGAN: Sharon is livid about this. She said that you were told effectively by e-mail that they were dumping you. And the only reason was because they couldn't insure you or what was the reason?

OSBOURNE: It was -- well, I was never told. No one ever once called me and said, listen, you know, cut to the chase, can you or can't you do this? Now, doctors tell you not to smoke. How many people smoke? Right? Millions. Now I'm not saying -- I'm not a doctor, I can't say if that's true or not. Doctors were saying that I can't do this because of these -- you know, following reasons. But no one ever asked me, can you do this?

And I was told, you know, we made them aware very early on what was going on. And I was jut -- I was -- I was -- listen, I'm not upset about how -- that I'm not on the project. Projects come and go. It's just the entertainment industry. It's what's happens. I'm upset because this is how I was kind of just cast aside like, all right, next, not even given an option to, you know --

MORGAN: Does that make you feel concerned for your professional future? Do you fear that others may follow suit?

OSBOURNE: To a degree. You know -- you know, a doctor who, you know, who's gone to school and studied medicine will tell you, you can't do this, you can't do that. And just my nature, when I'm told I can't do something, I'm determined to then do it. Because I just -- I want to prove people wrong, you know, and they -- you know, I was going -- I was training, you know, very aggressively for the -- you know, for the show. I was doing everything I normally was doing. And I was doing it fine. There was no -- no proof that I was, you know, incapacitated --

MORGAN: I mean it does seem, I got to say, pretty callous. I mean you look perfectly fit now despite this. It should be down to you to decide, I think, whether you're fit to do a TV show.

OSBOURNE: Their main argument was that I was, you know, uninsurable and I wouldn't be allowed to be in the Armed Forces anyway with M.S. and my, you know, response to that was put me through the standard, you know, you know, Armed Forces deployment fitness test.

MORGAN: One person who will know the answer to some of these questions is Sanjay Gupta. Our medical expert, who's been a friend of the family for a long time, I know. I know you're fed up with experts who don't know you putting worlds into your mouth. But I think you might be happy with Sanjay.


MORGAN: Let's talk to him after the break.


MORGAN: Jack Osbourne's back with me now in his first primetime interview since he was diagnosed with M.S. And CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta is a practicing neurosurgeon, joins us from Atlanta.

Sanjay, welcome. I know you know the Osbourne family well. Longtime friend of the family. Jack's a bit sick and tired of hearing people who don't know him or the family pontificating about how he's feeling or what he should expect.

Put it in perspective for me. What is M.S. in its simplicity descriptive terms? And what kind of life can Jack now expect, given he's 26 years old?


And Jack, let me just say. It's great to speak to you as well and I really admire your attitude. You're such a young guy. And I just -- I just loved hearing, you turning no into yes. And overcoming barriers. So it's just -- it's just really great to hear from you.

I'm going to -- say this, Jack already this. M.S. is a -- it is a chronic disease that affects a couple of million people around the world. The best way to sort of think about it is that your immune system for some reason thinks parts of your central nervous system don't belong there. So it attacks parts of the central nervous system at various times. It might be the brain. It might be the spinal cord, as Jack was alluding to earlier.

But what's interesting, and Jack described this beautifully, is that you could have, you know, blurriness in the eye at some point. And then that goes away and you absolutely have no symptoms for a long time. Then you might have some numbness in your foot. So this is a disease that is really characterized by changes in space in terms of where the lesions are located and also in time.

So that unpredictability that Jack was sort of describing is exactly what happens.

But, Piers, to your second question, quickly. You know, the most common form of M.S. is something known as relapsing and remitting. Comes and goes. That's what that means. And the vast majority of those people do really well. And they're doing better than ever before because of the medications, the therapeutics, the things that are now available that weren't available even five or 10 years ago.

MORGAN: Well, a good example of that is Montel Williams who I interviewed recently. And we got a clip of him talking to me about his battle with M.S. It's been going on for a long time and he looked in great shape, I have to say. And quite encouraging.

And I know, Jack, you've met up with him recently.

So let's watch a bit of Montel when he was on my show.


MONTEL WILLIAMS, TV HOST/SUFFERS FROM M.S.: When I say I changed my diet, Piers, I'm telling you, I eat differently than anybody on this planet, 75 percent of what I'm eating is liquefied. Why? Because I found out from the Food and Drug Administration, from the National Institute of Health, that more -- vegetables and fruits are nature's natural anti-inflammatories. And so what's the biggest nemesis of a person who has M.S.? Inflammation.

So I need to fight inflammation in my body every day. So this isn't been something I've done for three months. For seven years, my friend.


MORGAN: Pretty encouraging, Jack, I would think. Watching someone like Montel. Clearly something you can attack quite aggressively.

What questions would you have for Sanjay now that you've had time to think about this for a few weeks? Endless people telling you?

OSBOURNE: You know, I think my biggest -- you know, from what I've been researching is, you know, stem cell research. You know, I've heard, you know, I've seen things online, I've heard people talk on the radio about they are curing cases of M.S. with, you know, with stem cells. But there is the -- I mean I don't know the correct terminology, but isn't it the blood/spine barrier? Like you'd have to -- you'd have to theoretically inject the stem cells into the spine? And you can't really do that?

MORGAN: Sanjay?

GUPTA: Yes -- yes. So a couple of points. Good question, Jack. The blood/brain barrier is the term for that. But there are different types of M.S. And again, Jack, I'll apologize, you'll forgive me for telling this stuff you already know. But with your particular form this relapsing/remitting, it means you may have a plaque or some lesion at some point in your brain or spinal cord that then goes away. And maybe at some point way down the line it appears somewhere else.

So using stem cells with your form of M.S. at least initially probably doesn't -- it doesn't make a lot of sense and probably won't have a lot of benefit because you're sort of getting better quite often on your own. If it -- if it progressed into what is known as progressive M.S., so in that case, the lesions aren't going away, they're just sort of more accumulating, then you're absolutely right.

If you were going to think about a stem cell therapy, and they're getting better at this, you would have to inject it probably directly into the spinal fluid. It's called a cerebral spinal fluid, surrounding your spinal cord, and sort of let the stem cells do their work. Let them heal those parts of the central nervous system that have been affected by the M.S.

Again, this is the technology that's still being worked on. But hopefully, Jack, if that were ever the case and you needed it, maybe, you know, science will progress to the point where it's better than it is now.

MORGAN: And, Sanjay, just quickly, there are lots of urban myths already erupting about Jack's condition. Some put out there by his mom, who's obviously blaming herself. She's worried that she may have done something in her life which may have affected Jack after he was born. Also, her brother has M.S. Is it hereditary?

I suppose I would throw an obvious one. Could any of Jack's well-documented substance abuse, could that trigger something like this? Just give me quick responses to those.

GUPTA: Yes, it was so hard to watch Sharon like that. I'm such a big fan of hers.

I will tell you quickly, it's -- they think of it as something where you may be born with a predisposition to M.S., then something triggers it. There's nothing Sharon could have known or probably done. If she had an infection when she was pregnant, perhaps. But again, it's not something you can control for.

Hereditary wise, while the general population, maybe around 1 percent, if you have a first-degree relative it can go up to maybe 2 to 3 percent. So some degree of hereditary but not much.

And again, with regard to substance abuse, we don't know precisely what causes M.S., Piers, so it's very hard to say that if someone has -- is predisposed to it, what's going to trigger it necessarily. So I wouldn't place a lot of faith in that either, Piers.

MORGAN: Yes, and, Jack, I mean, look. Looking at you, and knowing the family, I'm sure you're going to give this everything you've got to attack it.

OSBOURNE: Absolutely.

MORGAN: And the prognosis should be pretty good actually despite how awful it all sounds when it first happened.

OSBOURNE: Yes, I've been told by all my doctors that if you're going to have M.S., now is the time to have it because there are, you know, I think two or three new drugs coming out on the market, you know, within the next six months. And -- you know, from talking with Montel, he was telling me about all this stuff that's, you know, a few years down the line. So it's -- you know, I do, I do believe that there will be a solution in sight within my lifetime.

MORGAN: Well, best of luck with it, Jack. OSBOURNE: Thank you.

MORGAN: Thanks for coming in. Send your mom my love.


MORGAN: We're all thinking of her, too. I know she's finding this very hard.

Sharon, if you're watching, I'm sure you are, don't worry, he's going to be OK, he's an Osbourne. And they're fighters and winners.

And, Sanjay, thank you very much for that expert analysis which I'm sure Jack found fascinating.

OSBOURNE: Yes, thank you.

MORGAN: Thank you to you both.

Coming up, today's big revelations in the Trayvon Martin case. I'll ask the Martin family's lawyer what he thinks about this account from George Zimmerman on what happened on the night Trayvon Martin died.


ZIMMERMAN: I had my firearm on my right side hip. My jacket moved up and he saw -- I feel like he saw it, he looked at it. He said, you're going to die tonight (EXPLETIVE DELETED).




ZIMMERMAN: I grab my gun and I aimed it at him. Fired one shot. He jumped straight back and said, you got me, or you got me, you got it, something like that.


MORGAN: We're back with our big story, George Zimmerman's account of the death of Trayvon Martin. Some of the police interrogation. And it comes as another new tape has been released. It shows Zimmerman at the scene of the shooting, talking through what he says happened. I'll talk to Zimmerman's lawyer Mark O'Mara in a moment.

First, let's bring in Benjamin Crump, the attorney for the Martin family for an exclusive interview.

Benjamin Crump, what is your reaction to all the tape material that's come out today?

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN FAMILY: Well, Piers, we're still trying to sort through it all. But the biggest thing we think is what he wrote that night in his written statement, in his own hand, in his own words, where he put that he got out of that vehicle, that night on February 26th, to look at street signs so he can give the police dispatcher his location.

And it goes completely contradictory to what we heard on that objective 911 tape when he said, oh, he's getting away. And then he pursued Trayvon Martin. And the 911 operator said, are you pursuing him? We don't need you to do that.

And so clearly when he writes his statement, Piers, why does he not tell the truth on the statement why he got out of that car? If we can't believe what he said from day one, how can we believe anything else after he's talked to people and talked to lawyers and talked to family members? So that's important. His credibility is the issue here. And that's the most important thing. Because Trayvon Martin isn't here to tell us his version of what happened.

MORGAN: And in terms of his credibility, George Zimmerman's -- I guess his credibility has been severely damaged. And his own attorney, I'm going to talk to soon, conceded that a few days ago, I'm going to show, by the revelations about the discussions over money between him and his wife, which has led to his wife being charged in perjury allegations and so on.

So in terms of that significance to how much we should believe in what George Zimmerman says in totality, how important is that, do you think?

CRUMP: Well, I think that's the crux of the matter, Piers. It is all about credibility. You got to tell the truth because if you don't tell the truth, if you lie about one thing, how can we believe that you're not going to lie about another thing? And that seems to be a pattern. And everybody is going to have to look at this for what it -- what it is. You got objective evidence. And then you've got George Zimmerman versions.

You put them up against one another. And we know that written statement that he did that night doesn't match up to that 911 tape. And there are other inconsistencies. And when we see the lie, we got to call it out and say, there's his credibility again. And that's the important thing.

MORGAN: When he's -- when he's telling the police at the scene what he says happened, he refers to a witness in the house directly next to where they are apparently grappling. And he says this. Let's hear a clip.


ZIMMERMAN: Only had a small portion of my head on the concrete. So I try to squirm off the concrete. And when I did that, somebody here opened the door. And I said, help me, help me. And they said, I'll call 911. I said no, help me, I need help. And I don't know what they did. But that's when my jacket moved up. And I had my -- my firearm on my right side hip. My jacket moved up. And he saw it. I feel like he saw it. He looked at it. And he said, you're going to die tonight, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

And he reached for it but he reached -- like I felt his arm going down to my side. And I grabbed it. And I just grabbed my firearm and I shot him. One time.


MORGAN: Now, Benjamin Crump, do you know who that witness could be? Has that person come forward, made any statements?

CRUMP: I don't know. Again, I haven't had a chance to vet out his video statements fully. But certainly the police department, the lead investigator, Detective Cerrino, as well as special prosecutor's office, they looked at everything. They don't believe George Zimmerman's version.

You know, you got so many inconsistent statements that people are going to have to look at his credibility when you face objective evidence and common sense, Piers. This is a neighborhood watch person who's lived in this neighborhood for three years. And he tells the police dispatcher that he has to get out to look at a street sign.

There are only three streets in this whole gated complex that he has patrolled. And he's lived there for three years. It doesn't pass the common sense test. And the witness' statements and versions don't go consistent with George Zimmerman. That's a problem, because we know he has a credibility issue. These witnesses don't have a dog in this fight.

They don't have anything to gain one way or the other. George Zimmerman has everything to gain because he's on trial for murdering an unarmed teenager. Consider this, Piers: if you reverse this situation, and you had Trayvon Martin telling the police and America this version, would Trayvon Martin not be convicted of murdering an unarmed George Zimmerman?

That's the crux of the matter. We only want equal justice here. That's all Trayvon parent's want.

MORGAN: Benjamin Crump, as always, thank you very much for joining me.

CRUMP: Thank you, Piers.

MORGAN: George Zimmerman's attorney just spoke to his client in jail. Now Mark O'Mara is here to talk to me exclusively.



ZIMMERMAN: He was about where you were. I said, I don't have a problem. I went to go grab my cell phone, but my -- I left it in a different pocket. I looked down at my pant pocket. He said, you got a problem now. And then he was here. He punched me in the face.


MORGAN: George Zimmerman, in his own words, describing the encounter with Trayvon Martin that ended the teenager's death. Zimmerman says it was self-defense. The Martin family says it was murder. Joining me now for an exclusive is Zimmerman's defense attorney, Mark O'Mara. Mark, thanks for joining me again.

Pretty dramatic stuff has come out today. What is the purpose of putting this all out now?

MARK O'MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the judge said last week that the information was going to come out. So the real question is when we were going to get it out. As we've done many times in this case, when George acknowledged his apology to the Martin family, when he acknowledged what happened at the bond hearing, and now acknowledging his very own statements, we wanted to get them out.

MORGAN: Benjamin Crump, who I just interviewed, was pretty strident in saying it's riddled with inconsistencies. He cites in particular the discrepancy between what we see from his description in these tapes today, George Zimmerman, saying that the reason he got out of the car was to check the street sign. He says there are only three street signs. The guy's been patrolling the area as a neighborhood watch official for three years. It doesn't pass the common sense test that he wouldn't now what that street was.

But then secondly, it contradicts the now infamous audio tape that we first heard when all this happened, which has him clearly in pursuit of Trayvon Martin. What would you say to that?

O'MARA: Well, the concern I have, Piers, is that I truly am not at liberty to do an analysis of the evidence. Mr. Crump believes that he is. And I understand that. I really -- my only suggestion would be that this is now another part, a chapter of the evidence. It's certainly not all of it. This is not even all what the state has. And we've certainly not seen what the defense intends to present.

I'm just hoping, as I hoped all along that people will take an open view, wait until all the evidence is in before they make a decision.

MORGAN: How much of a problem is it for you? We discussed this the other night, this issue of the perjury claims now against George Zimmerman and his wife over this conversation they had from when he was in jail, talking to his wife about the amount of money they had, which clearly -- what they said in court was not what the truth was. We discussed this as being a problem then.

When you look at this video today, it all comes down to whether you believe George Zimmerman. How much of a problem is it that his credibility is now being damaged?

O'MARA: As we've discussed, his credibility was certainly affected by the fact that he stood mute when his wife said something that turned out to be a misrepresentation to the court about the funds. They're going to have to deal with that. That rehabilitation is going to have to occur. However, we do need to keep in mind, as we review his credibility, what his credibility attends to and what it doesn't or isn't necessary for.

And all the objective evidence I think, once it's all out, is going to be another focus that people need to look at. So you need to look at the forensic evidence, injuries to both of the parties, the witness statement, the tape that talks about -- or on it has the person screaming for help for more than 45 seconds.

I think when you look at all -- some, which is the way it's supposed to happen, that the attacks on Mr. Zimmerman's credibilities are going to pale in comparison to the undeniable objective evidence.

MORGAN: The witness that George Zimmerman describes in the video today from the property directly adjoining where this incident finally took place, do you know if that witness has come forward and made a statement that corroborates what George is saying?

O'MARA: That witness has made a statement. I don't want to suggest as much as corroboration. I don't want to talk again about that evidence. But that witness has been identified and a statement has been given.

MORGAN: I mean that could be crucial, couldn't it? Because it's a direct eyewitness to the actual fight.

O'MARA: I believe that is going to be a crucial piece of evidence when it is fully vetted out.

MORGAN: You've spoken to George today I believe after all this material was released. How would you describe his mood?

O'MARA: Well, multifaceted. He's very concerned about himself. Of course doesn't like to be in jail. Understands why he's there again. Very, very concerned about Shelly and the position that she put herself in, or the circumstances put her in.

However, I think that he is happy in the sense that more evidence is getting out. And what he really wants is for all the evidence to get out, so that when people make their decisions, again, they can sort of make it not from a biased perspective, but from an informed perspective.

MORGAN: I mean, a cynic would look at the way that he describes what happens and say, well, look, this guy is a neighborhood watch official. He's been doing it for years. If he had just killed a teenager, under whatever the real circumstances are, this is the kind of story he would have constructed to cover himself under the Stand Your Law .

O'MARA: Well, agreed. However, remember that he did those statements before he was aware of any other evidence. So when he came up with that statement, he came up with that statement not knowing whether or not there were half a dozen eyewitnesses watching every move that was made by both of the parties. So if you're going to say that he has a credibility issue, you also have to look at the statement in the context of everything else that came out that he was not aware of.

If you look at it from that perspective, his statements both that night and the following four or five days, all of which were given voluntarily -- he did everything the police did. When you look at the statements in that context, it gives a more rounded perspective. And there's nothing that conflicts with what Mr. Zimmerman said.

Now, are all of his statements completely in lock step with each other? Absolutely not. And I would suggest to you that if they were, that that would suggest that they were made up, because, Piers, if I was to ask you a statement, five different times, and asked you about an event that happened, you would give me statements in response that are somewhat different for each and every event. It is human nature. We'll explain away the inconsistencies when we need to.

MORGAN: Mark O'Mara, as always, thank you for joining me. I appreciate it.

O'MARA: Sure thing.

MORGAN: Next, Jerry Sandusky awaits his verdict. He'll have to wait at least one more day as the jury's just finished deliberating. I'll talk to one of his good friends who tells a very different story than what you've heard so far.

Plus, the attorney for one of the young men who accuses him of sexual abuse of a child.


MORGAN: Breaking news on the Sandusky trial, the jury has wrapped up deliberations for the night and they'll be back tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. Joining me now is Tom Klein. He is the attorney for the young man who is victim number five.

Mr. Kline, I suppose the most dramatic development today was that Matt Sandusky, Jerry Sandusky's adopted son, came forward saying he too was a victim of abuse at the hands of Jerry Sandusky. What was your reaction and your client's reaction to that bombshell, as it turned out to be?

MATT KLINE, ATTORNEY: Piers, I was just going to use the same term you used. It was a bombshell. Apparently the -- Mr. Sandusky's son, adopted son, Matt, was actually talking to the prosecutors, according to published reports. That was the reason. So it's believed that Sandusky didn't take the stand in his own defense. So it was a dramatic development both in the courtroom and outside of the courtroom today.

MORGAN: How do you feel the trial has gone in term of your client's interest and those of the other young people who came forward, who claimed they've been abused as children?

KLINE: Well, I've been in the courtroom every day, from the opening statements until the end of the closing arguments and the jury charge. I saw every witness testify. There was a mountain of evidence that was produced by the prosecution which was reviewed by the prosecution today. What I saw from the defense was largely an attempt to create a conspiracy theory, which basically boiled down to everyone, from the police to the prosecutors to the lawyers like myself to the media -- everyone had conspired and in some way had created and concocted a story which influenced eight young men from coming forward and telling this story.

I don't think it sells very well. Mr. Amendola, on behalf of Mr. Sandusky, told this jury that the prosecution case just doesn't make sense. And it seemed to me as an observer, not a casual observer, but an observer who had heard every lick of testimony, that it was quite the opposite.

MORGAN: Thomas Kline, thank you very much.

Sandusky didn't take the stand, but his good friend, Dr. James Martin, did. And he joins me tonight. Mr. Martin, you've been a staunch defender of Jerry Sandusky. You've testified on his behalf earlier this week. Why are you so convinced, given the mountain of evidence to the contrary, that he is innocent of ever abusing a child?

DR. JAMES MARTIN, FRIEND OF JERRY SANDUSKY: Well, the Jerry Sandusky that I knew and have come to know over the past 28 years spent his life trying to help kids overcome their circumstances. And I cannot imagine a situation where he would do any of the alleged things that have been accused of him. This is a guy that spent his life, built his reputation on helping kids overcome their circumstances. I just can't imagine him doing any of those things.

MORGAN: I mean, would you ever have naked showers with boys of 12, 13, 14?

MARTIN: I certainly wouldn't now. You know, I was a wrestler here at Penn State. I do recall when we showered after practices, we showered all together in a big room. It just wasn't a big thing. Now, I will tell you, growing up and not having done that in a long time, it would seem a little bit odd to me to be showering with other people, like athletes do on a regular basis.

I'm not giving or providing any excuse for that, but I can certainly see where that wouldn't seem all that unusual.

MORGAN: But for a man of Jerry Sandusky's age to be doing that, did it not make you think this is weird? Whatever was really going on, whatever side of the coin you believe, it's an odd practice for a man of that age to be --

MARTIN: I -- I would agree with that. I think a man of that age having showers with young men is not appropriate. But that's not a criminal act as far as I know.

MORGAN: Do you feel that he's going to be acquitted?

MARTIN: I really have no idea. I think there's a lot of people confused and I've heard the testimony. And really, the reporting in this case, at least in my opinion, has been very one-sided. And I think a lot of people are really confused, because what's been reported is not characteristic with Jerry's reputation in this area.

MORGAN: You yourself stayed at Jerry and Dottie Sandusky's house. He showered you with gifts, a watch, a photo album, a poem, which said "thank you for being you" in it. Again, I would put to you this is just not normal behavior. What did you make of it? Did you ever see anything that you thought was a little odd?

MARTIN: I don't think there's anything wrong with those behaviors. You know, Jerry is a very emotional guy. And he likes people. And he did that on a regular occasion, gave people gifts and that's one of the ways that he showed that he cared about people. You know, a guy that -- how many bowls, gets a watch every bowl, gets multiple clothes from different companies. And he can't wear all that stuff. And that was his way that he showed people that he cared about them.

He gave me some of those gifts. And I never saw any behavior -- any behavior that I ever really questioned or thought was really suspicious. And I've spent quite a bit of time around him as a person, as well as with the Second Mile kids. I just never saw it. The Jerry Sandusky that I knew and I saw and had a relationship I cannot imagine doing the things that have been accused.

MORGAN: Did you know Matt Sandusky, his adopted son?

MARTIN: Yeah, I knew Matt fairly well. I have known him over the years. I remember when Jerry was trying to adopt him and all the struggles that Jerry went through with Matt's mom to try to get him adopted and to try and help him out to overcome his circumstances, which were not very good.

MORGAN: So are you as shocked as everybody else that he now is making it clear that he was abused by Jerry Sandusky, or claims to have been?

MARTIN: I'm not all that shocked by a kid who at the beginning of the trial is for him, at the end of the trial is against him. That doesn't say a whole lot to his emotional stability. I'm a bit surprised that he would do that for a guy that stuck his neck out and tried to make him into a person or give him a chance at life beyond what he was going to have. Yeah, I'm disappointed in that.

Am I shocked? I'm not super shocked. Jerry was dealing with a lot of kids with very troubled backgrounds. These kids come from bad backgrounds. They don't always tell the truth or a straight story. And they change camps, obviously, on a regular basis. So that doesn't provide a whole lot of credibility to what he's doing when you're changing your mind over a week period of time who you're going to support.

MORGAN: If Jerry Sandusky is as innocent as you think he is, why did this defense put up this strange claim that he suffered from this syndrome called Histrionic Personality Disorder?

MARTIN: Yes, I don't understand -- I don't claim to understand the rationale behind the attorney's actions. Let me also say this, I'm a staunch believer that Jerry Sandusky is a great guy. But in the same sense, if he's committed these acts, he should be guilty of them and charged. I just cannot image him doing those things.

And it wasn't the Jerry Sandusky that I knew and have come to know over the 28-year period of time.

MORGAN: Dr. Martin, I appreciate you joining me today. Thank you very much.

MARTIN: You're welcome.

MORGAN: Coming up next, Only in America takes on those school bus bullies who tormented a 68-year-old grandmother.


MORGAN: For tonight's Only in America, school bus bullies. It's the shocking videos that's enraged millions of Americans and made me sick to my stomach when I first saw it: middle school students, children, vigorously tormenting a school bus monitor. The victim of that crude abuse a grandmother, 68 year old Karen Klein (ph). She sat utterly defenseless as kid after kid insulted and ridiculed her with vile outbursts like this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my God, you're so fat. Yes, you're fat. You're so fat. You take up like the whole entire seat. You don't have a family because they all killed themselves because they didn't want to be near you.


MORGAN: These cowardly young bullies from Greece Athena Middle School in Rochester, New York never let up. They laughed. They snickered. They taunted. They mocked. They continued even as the poor woman cried. Here's what Karen Klein said later about her appalling experience.


KAREN KLEIN, SCHOOL BUS MONITOR: I was trying to just ignore them, hoping they would go away, and it doesn't work. Trust me. They didn't go away.


MORGAN: No, they didn't. They were too busy enjoying themselves, loving every second of their disgusting amoral behavior. The school says an investigation has been launched and the students will be dealt with. The ringleader should be rooted out and severely punishment. Yet out of this sickening episode, a glimmer of hope and inspiration.

Parents everywhere have been reacting not just with shock and horror to the video, but with money. A fund to send Karen Klein on a luxury holiday to recover from her ordeal has so far raised more than 250,000 dollars online, an incredible gesture that restores faith in the human spirit. But money won't change very much about what happened or heal the scars.

Karen Klein deserves a more lasting legacy for the ignomy she had to endure. If you're a parent, play this 10-minute video in full to your children. Make them understand what bullying really is and the effect that such cowardly abuse can have. Do it for Karen Klein and your country. Because real Americans don't behave like that.

That's all for us tonight. "AC 360" starts now.