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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT

Bachmann versus Obamacare; The Obamacare Battle; Frey's Real Life Hotel California;

Aired July 2, 2012 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Tonight, she's leading the charge against Obamacare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R), MINNESOTA: This is the first time anything like this has happened. This is a turning point in American history. We will never be the same again with this denial of liberty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Now a surprising poll results on how Americans really feel about the Supreme Court decision and the race for the White House. I'll ask Michele Bachmann will this change the course of the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BACHMANN: The American people are seeing the very clear contrast between Barack Obama's failed policies and Mitt Romney's expertise and know-how.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Plus our (INAUDIBLE) meet with two political players. Will the Romney versus Obama race be about big ideas or would it come down to a matter of dollars and cents? They debate, you decide.

Also life in the fast lane. He was in one of the biggest and most iconic American bands of all time. Now Glen Fry is back.

This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.

Good evening. Our "Big Story" tonight, dead heat. And I'm not talking about the weather. I'm talking about Americans' opinions about the Supreme Court decision on Obamacare. Take a look at the first of two CNN polls. Fifty percent agree with the decision, 49 percent disagree. Well within the poll's margin of error.

You might think a big win for the president on Obamacare would be reflected in his poll numbers, or you might expected opponents of the decision would galvanize support for Mitt Romney. But take a look at this second CNN poll on registered voters choice for president. No change since May with President Obama still at 49 percent, Mitt Romney at 46 percent.

So what is going on here? And what does it mean for the race for the White House?

Joining me now for our "Big Story," one of the leading voices speaking out against the Supreme Court decision, former presidential candidate, Michele Bachmann.

Congresswoman, thank you for joining me again. Let me start by asking you why are you so implacably opposed to universal health care for all?

BACHMANN: Well, of course, we want health care for everyone. But we want it at the cheapest possible price for the American people and for everyone involved. We want the highest possible quality for the greatest number of people.

And part of the problem with Obamacare, Piers, has been that it's absolutely exploded cost. President Obama promised that every American would save $2500 a year on their health insurance premium and just the reverse happened. Their premiums went up by about $2200 so that's a $5,000 swing from what the president promised.

So costs are exploding. We're beginning to see denial of care by the Obamacare board, the IPAB board, and so this is not a very good scenario where we're spending more money and we're getting less for it. And I think that's why it's been very unpopular with the American people especially with senior citizens because Medicare is actually losing $575 billion. It's been cut by that amount of money.

So we still have the same amount of senior citizens if not more so. There's just a lot less money in Medicare. So that's also made it very unpopular.

MORGAN: If it's so terrible, such a ghastly idea, why was the deciding vote taken by a conservative chief justice, John Roberts? Why has he flown against all conservative thinking if that's what it is?

BACHMANN: Well, absolutely no one can fathom why he came up with the decision that he did. To me clearly this was an unconstitutional requirement from government. Never before has the federal government demanded of every American just because we breathe that we have to buy a product that government tells us we have to buy at a certain price that the government tells us we have to pay for it. And of all places insurance companies.

We're forced to buy a product that private insurance companies offer and this is (INAUDIBLE) Americans. We should be able to make our choices, not have the federal government make our choices for us because the good news is we really can have positive health care reform. We can do this and we can bring down the cost of health care and we can make sure that we have affordable, accessible health care for all Americans.

But the current situation won't work. In fact, what a lot of Americans aren't realizing quite yet is that there's over 20 new taxes in Obamacare and just one of the taxes will be a tax on when people sell their homes. It's 3.8 percent. And for many Americans, they'll have to pay in addition to all the other costs at the closing and when they sell their home, the seller will have to pay 3.8 percent of the closing costs to the government for Obamacare.

So if you have a $500,000 house, you'll be having to give something under $20,000 to the federal government just to pay for Obamacare. That's just one of the new taxes that's about to take place.

MORGAN: Do you have car insurance?

BACHMANN: Yes, I do.

MORGAN: Who told you to?

BACHMANN: I have car insurance because I have an investment in my car and I want to make sure that I can hold on to that investment. But car insurance is a very different thing from health insurance. Because no one is forced to buy a car if they don't want to. But here in the case of Obamacare, every American is forced to buy a health insurance policy just because they breathe.

MORGAN: Yes, but hang on. Hang on.

(CROSSTALK)

BACHMANN: It's very different situation.

MORGAN: Let me jump in. Let me jump in. You just hit the nail on the head. You talked about buying health insurance. You have to buy car insurance. If you want to drive a car in America, you have to buy insurance, or you will be driving illegally. You will be fined. If you keep defying it, you'll be put in jail.

What is the difference ideologically to a Republican like you that is so opposed to this? What is the difference between Americans being forced by law to have insurance to drive a car and being forced by law to have insurance for their health?

BACHMANN: Well, I said it in the beginning of my remarks. No one is forced to buy a car. You don't have to buy a car. But if you buy a car, you need to be responsible and have insurance. But in America, this isn't a matter of buying something. This is being forced to purchase a product that government tells us to.

This is a tremendously radical decision, Piers, because now we've -- previously we've had choices in health insurance, now we give all of that up. Now all of the powers put in government's hands and government decides exactly what health insurance policy all Americans have to buy.

We don't have a choice anymore. That's just been taken away from us. Now government chooses. It's far beyond that. Now government will be telling doctors what their decisions need to be on health care as well. This is very different from what we've had before. This is a massive loss of our own decision making over some of the most personal decisions in our lives.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Well, it's not -- it's not actually --

BACHMANN: Health care. Now government makes the choice.

MORGAN: It's not that unique. It's not that unique. Only in the sense that it's done at the federal level --

BACHMANN: It's highly unique.

MORGAN: -- because of course Mitt --

BACHMANN: Not at a federal level but of course at the state level a very different thing. Let's play a clip from then governor of Massachusetts, Mitt Romney, in 2006 talking specifically about a health insurance mandate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: With regards to the mandate, the Individual Responsibility Program, which I proposed, I was very pleased to see that the compromise from the two Houses includes the personal responsibility principles. That is essential for bringing health care cost down for everyone and getting everybody the health insurance they deserve and need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: You can call me bemused of the British isles, Michele Bachmann, but what is the difference?

BACHMANN: Well, again, the compare and contrast couldn't be more stark between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney because when voters go into the polls this November, they can vote for Barack Obama who will keep government health care, which is government control over our lives in health care and what is called a taxmageddon that is coming upon us. The largest tax increase in American history will come to us with Obamacare.

That we know we will have with a second term with Barack Obama versus Mitt Romney who will repeal Obamacare on day one.

MORGAN: Right.

BACHMANN: He wants choice for all Americans.

MORGAN: This isn't exactly --

(CROSSTALK)

BACHMANN: And also -- let me just finish, Piers. Let me just finish. MORGAN: I hate to be railed --

BACHMANN: Mitt Romney wants choice --

MORGAN: But I know what you're going to say. But you're all doing --

BACHMANN: Mitt Romney wants choice for all Americans but he also wants -- he wants lower costs in health care for all Americans. We know we won't have that in Obamacare. We will if Mitt Romney becomes the next president of the United States.

MORGAN: OK. Just to get back to how would you crystallize the difference between that clip of Mitt Romney in 2006 and the individual mandate he was talking about in relation to health insurance? What is the ideological difference between that and what Barack Obama has done?

BACHMANN: Well, that's simple. Very simple. Because what Mitt Romney was talking about was one state, Massachusetts. What Barack Obama is talking about is every single American in the nation. Mitt Romney couldn't have been more clear. He said I would never put this program in Massachusetts -- I would never apply this to the entire country. It would be wrong.

He couldn't have been more clear.

MORGAN: OK.

BACHMANN: And so that's why I say in November --

MORGAN: Let me -- let me muddy the water.

BACHMANN: The decision will be very stark. Barack Obama will not deviate from this program that's already been proven a failure because again --

MORGAN: If I -- if I may jump in.

BACHMANN: Again the --

MORGAN: Let me jump in and just play you a clip for Mitt Romney in 2009 on "Meet the Press" because he was asked, specifically about whether this he could apply on a national level. His individual health mandate. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: The right way to proceed is to reform health care. That we can do as we did it in Massachusetts as Wyden Bennett (ph) is proposing doing it at the national level. We can do it for the nation. We can get everybody insured. We can get the cost of health care down but we don't have to have government insurance and government running health care to get that done.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: See, I'm even more bemused now because unless I'm going completely mad, he's basically saying that what he did in Massachusetts could be done just as effectively on a national level, isn't he?

BACHMANN: No, that isn't what he said at all. He said that we can have dramatic reform at the national level which we can. That's the good news. The biggest problem with Obamacare is that it will literally send millions of jobs outside of the country because once that decision was announced last Thursday, I will tell you, people all across United States who've run companies made a decision.

They said we have the highest tax rate for companies in the world. We have the worst banking laws in the world in America because of Dodd-Frank. We have very expensive cap-and-trade legislation that was just uphold by the appellate court and now we have the biggest tax increase in American history with Obamacare.

MORGAN: Right.

BACHMANN: And so people who own --

MORGAN: But --

BACHMANN: -- companies are going to send --

MORGAN: But Congresswoman --

BACHMANN: -- millions of jobs outside of the country.

MORGAN: If I could just -- if I could just read this back to you.

BACHMANN: That's the biggest tax we could have.

MORGAN: Let me just read this back to you. I don't think you heard this correctly. Because he said, in relation to reform of health care, that we can do as we did it in Massachusetts, doing it at the national level. What does he mean by that? Because unless I'm going, as I say, crackers, it means to me that he means you could do what he did in Massachusetts, i.e., bringing the individual health mandate that he was heard talking about in my previous clip to a national level which is exactly what Barack Obama has done.

BACHMANN: Well, during my bid for the presidency, I made the repeal of Obamacare the centerpiece of my message. And I've had numerous conversations with Mitt Romney about the issue of Obamacare. And he has said to me repeatedly as he has said on television repeatedly, he wants to seek reform of our health care system because it's broken and in need of reform.

And so what he's saying is on the national level we can have reform but he's also said repeatedly he would not put in place on a national level what they put in place in Massachusetts because what we need is more options, more choices and lower costs in health insurance. That's the opposite of what we're getting already as the result of Obamacare.

MORGAN: OK. Let's take a short break. When we come back, I want to talk to you about how you would handle health care and what you think it would take to get the country's economy going again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For us to say that you've got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase. What it's saying is that we're not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you anymore than the fact that right now everybody in America just about has to get auto insurance. Nobody considers that a tax increase.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: President Obama back in 2009 on ABC's "This Week" saying that his health care mandate is not a tax.

Back with me now with more on our "Big Story," Congresswoman Michele Bachmann.

So there we've got an even more bemusing picture involving the president because he says it's not a tax, very firmly. Now it's a tax. He's saying it's a great idea. And of course it was always going to be a tax because that suits them politically.

What do you think? Is this a tax or is it a penalty?

BACHMANN: Well, it's very clear from the legislation it was not called a tax. President Obama didn't call it a tax. Nancy Pelosi didn't call it a tax. Harry Reid didn't call it a tax but the effect of this is that we will have the largest tax increase in American history. Why? Because it's a requirement. So we have all of the law professor arguments from the Supreme Court but the real pragmatic practical issue for all of your viewers tonight, Piers, is that people are going to pay a lot more for their health care.

They're going to get a lot less in return unfortunately but the biggest tax of all will be that millions of jobs are about to be shipped overseas because of this but what's even more concerning to me is that millions of Americans are going to be thrown off their employer sponsored care because companies can't afford to pay for it anymore and then people will have to go out into the private market and spend on average $20,000 for a family policy.

I'm a -- I'm a tax lawyer. That's what I did for a living. People receive their health insurance from their employer tax free but now they'll have to go out and buy it with after-tax money. This is going to be a very different America with this decision. One that won't be -- won't bode well for people in the future. That's why I know and have every confidence that Mitt Romney will repeal Obamacare on his very first day in office. MORGAN: Part of the problem for the Republicans is that you're all saying it's a tax as are many Republicans but Mitt Romney today has come out through his spokesman and said very clearly it's not a tax, the mandate. It's a penalty. So there is a real divide there over the language that's being used by your party.

Which is it? Is it a tax or as Mitt Romney says a penalty?

BACHMANN: Well, I've already answered that question. I said that the language of the statute does not refer to it as a tax nor did the leading Democrats that were pushing this bill. But John Roberts and liberals on the Supreme Court called it a tax. It doesn't matter. That's something for law professors to argue.

What does matter to your viewers is what it's going to mean for them and the bottom line, Obamacare is going to mean very expensive health care denial of services but it's also going to mean the biggest job tax we've ever seen because millions of jobs are about to be shipped overseas.

That's not what I want to see for people. I want to see health care reformed so that costs can go down and we can do all of that. I have a very simple bill that I have on my Web site at bachmann.house.gov, and it's real simple. Let every American buy any health insurance policy they want anywhere in America, let every American pay for that health insurance with their own tax-free money and then have true medical malpractice reform.

That doesn't cost the taxpayer a dime but it drives down the cost of health care for every American. It gets the bureaucracy out of it but it puts choice in the hands of your viewers. Today government holds all the cards. Government gets to choose what's in our health insurance. Government has control over what the doctors' decisions are and government chooses my doctor.

That's not what I want for my 81-year-old mother or my 87-year- old stepdad. I want them to own their own health insurance. I want them to choose their doctor. I don't want some government bureaucrat to decide if my mother gets health care or not. That's not what I want for future of the CNN viewers.

MORGAN: Let's turn to a couple of tweets from Rupert Murdoch who, in many ways, is a leading light of the Republicans. He said he met Romney last week. "Tough O'Chicago pros will be hard to beat unless he drops old friends from his team and hires some real pros. Doubtful." He then clarified, "Romney people upset at me. Of course I want him to win. Save us from socialism. But he should listen to good advice and get stuck in."

Has Mr. Murdoch got a point? Do you think?

BACHMANN: I think that American people are seeing the very clear contrast between Barack Obama's failed policies and Mitt Romney's expertise and know-how. This is what people know about Mitt Romney. He's a very smart individual.

MORGAN: I don't think that is a point Rupert Murdoch is making.

BACHMANN: Very savvy and he --

(LAUGHTER)

BACHMANN: Well, again I think --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: I was asking you about the specific point he was making, which is -- if I could just finish. Just the specific point Rupert Murdoch is making which is that Barack Obama has tougher, better people around him than Mitt Romney and that could cost Mitt Romney the election. Do you agree with that?

BACHMANN: I don't agree with it at all because if you look at Mitt Romney's history, very smart guy with a very optimistic savvy message and people know that they can trust him on dealing with the economy. If you look at his life's history, Mitt Romney has accomplished a lot. He's been extremely successful via his own smarts and also the fact that he surrounded himself with the best possible people.

MORGAN: Finally, if Mitt Romney was to call you after this interview, in fact, you know, did a very good job there, Michele Bachmann, and I've missed you on the public stage. I think it's time you came back at a high level. I'd like you to be my VP. What would you say to him?

BACHMANN: Well, one thing I know about Mitt Romney he's made excellent decisions in the past when it comes to running organizations. And I have no doubt whoever it is that he chooses to bring in as his VP it will be a highly competent person who could step in at a moment's notice and assume the responsibilities at the White House. I have absolute trust and faith in the decisions that Mitt Romney will make as president.

MORGAN: Are you being vetted at the moment?

BACHMANN: Well, that's something for the campaign to answer on. That's not -- that's not for me to make that decision and that announcement.

MORGAN: That is not, as we say in the journalistic trade, a denial, Congresswoman.

BACHMANN: Well, again, I'm just looking forward to seeing the country turn around and to seeing the economy improve and that's something that I trust Mitt Romney to do. And he can do it very well.

MORGAN: Michele Bachmann, thanks for coming back on the show. I appreciate it.

BACHMANN: Piers, thanks again. It's always great to be with you. MORGAN: When we come back, what promises to be a lively debate with some top political insiders on what they just heard from Michele Bachmann and what it all means for November.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: This is now a time for the American people to make a choice. You can choose whether you want to have a larger and larger government, more and more intrusive in your life, separating you and your doctor, whether you're comfortable with more deficits, higher debt that we pass under the coming generations, or whether instead you want to return to a time when the American people will have their own choice in health care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Mitt Romney reacting to the Supreme Court decision on health care last week. You heard what Michele Bachmann say about it. Now I want to bring in a couple of political observers who are fired up.

Joining me now is Republican strategist Kellyanne Conway and political analyst and "Huffington Post" blogger Tanya Acker.

Welcome to you both.

Kellyanne, let me start with you. Michele Bachmann spray gunned all the Armageddon, the end of the world is -- facts as she saw them. Of course these are open to -- how can I put this -- the old fashioned fact checking. And for example, she repeated this claim that, you know, basically every American under this Obamacare will face an extra 3.8 percent tax on home sales, et cetera, et cetera, and of course that's simply not true.

If you actually study the facts on this, it would only apply when the household income is greater than $250,000 and the profit on the home is more than half a million dollars, which means 99.9 percent of all Americans are immediately ruled out of this. So the scare mongering tactic, I think, is being overdone. They're over ragging the souffle. What do you say?

KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I'd say, Piers, that there's a reason that a vast majority of Americans still oppose Obamacare. They did when it was passed, they did when the Supreme Court issued its opinion last Thursday and they do today. Why is that? Because they see it for what it is.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. You see, there you go again. You've got Bachmann disease. It's not the vast majority of Americans.

CONWAY: I think that's a compliment. MORGAN: The latest polls -- the latest polls say that half of Americans are in favor. Half are against.

CONWAY: One of the polls does.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: But, Piers, let's just talk about the opinion and the impact on the population now for a moment --

MORGAN: Yes, you can't just repeat the vast majority of Americans oppose it when the clear evidence from the latest polls is that's not true.

CONWAY: On one poll. On one poll. But, Piers, the fact is that we know tax is a four-letter word to Americans. This is why the left is trying to say no, it's not a tax. It's a penalty even though it was found constitutional under Congress's taxing power. Under the taxing power --

MORGAN: Again, again. Kelly Anne. Let me stop you. It's not just the left saying it's a penalty. Mitt Romney today, his spokesman, said it's a penalty, not a tax.

CONWAY: Right. And I'm going to tell you what the Supreme Court said.

MORGAN: Your guy --

CONWAY: Here's what the Supreme Court said.

MORGAN: No, no.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Hold on. Your guy, your guy, Mitt Romney, said today they don't see it as a tax. They see it as a penalty. So how can you blame the American public for being confused when half of the Republicans say --

CONWAY: I'm not blaming the American public by any chance.

MORGAN: -- it's a tax and the other half say it's a penalty.

CONWAY: I'm not blaming the American public. But, Piers, here's -- here's the implication. As the Supreme Court held, they said the fact that Congress, the people who wanted to fool us into believing it was good for us called it a penalty, does not mean it's a penalty for constitutional purposes.

The Supreme Court held that it is a tax because it's not large enough to be punitive, number one. Number two, there's no (INAUDIBLE) requirement, and number three, ding, ding, ding, the Internal Revenue Service, as Congresswoman Bachmann correctly pointed out, will now be the one in charge of collecting it. So if the American people, whether they go to polls this November or in 2014, having not purchased essential minimal requirements of health care, quote/unquote, they will be -- they will have to pay for it in their tax returns.

MORGAN: OK. Let me turn --

CONWAY: Everybody can call it a penalty. If people feel it's a tax, it's a four-letter word that's a tax, that's the way that they're going to react to it.

MORGAN: OK. Well, half of the Republicans are calling it tax. Half are calling it penalty. Mitt Romney thinks it's a penalty.

I'm confused, Tanya. Bring me up to speed with where we are on this. I'm equally confused by Barack Obama. Because he said quite clearly in that interview with ABC a couple of years ago it is not a tax and never going to be a tax. Now he's saying well, now the Supreme Court says I can do it through taxation, it's a great idea.

But is it a tax? That's the way can he do this.

TANYA ACKER, POLITICAL ANALYST, BLOGGER: There's a good reason why you're confused. I mean if you read the Supreme Court decision the court says very clearly at the outset that it's not a tax because if it were a tax the court could not have reached this decision. There's something called the Anti-Injunction Act which said that you can't challenge a tax until you actually have to pay it.

Now what the court also said is that the act could be upheld under Congress's taxing powers. And there are lots of exactions, there are lots of penalties and moneys that people have to pay under the Congress's taxing power that may not necessarily be a tax.

But, actually, Piers, I want to go back to another point you made because I think it's really interesting what both the congresswoman and Kellyanne do and it's -- you know, it's fun watching people do this sometimes you repeat something long enough that perhaps it becomes true.

But even if you were to consider this a tax, you know, I hear this talking point that suggests that it's the biggest tax increase in the world, you know, if you believe Rush Limbaugh's facts or in the history of the United States. That simply is not true.

The tax increase, you know, let's call it a tax if you want to call it a tax. If you call it a tax, that increase is 33 percent less than the 1982 tax increase that Ronald Reagan passed.

CONWAY: What is the point to this?

ACKER: And going back to the point about -- and going back to the point -- well, the point is if you don't like what I'm saying and if you don't like the fact that you're making up facts, then just hear me out.

CONWAY: Tanya, excuse me.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: What facts did I make up exactly? No, no, no. Hold on. What facts did I make up exactly?

ACKER: It's not the -- it's not the --

CONWAY: I see you're trying to read your notes. What fact did I make up exactly?

ACKER: It's not that -- don't be so catty.

CONWAY: I'm looking at -- I'm looking at the Supreme Court decision.

ACKER: It's not the largest tax increase --

CONWAY: They called it -- they said it's constitutional under the taxing power.

ACKER: Kellyanne, under the taxing power --

CONWAY: You're going -- the IRS -- what is the IRS in charge of? Penalties? Commerce?

ACKER: As I was saying, it's not the largest tax increase in the history of the United States, as you and your cohorts like to say.

CONWAY: And I didn't say it is.

ACKER: It's not the largest tax increase.

CONWAY: It's a pretty darn hefty one.

ACKER: And by the way, in addition -- oh my --

CONWAY: Let's get to a serious point, Tanya. Let me ask you a question.

ACKER: I can understand -- I can understand -- no, I'm actually -- no, I'm trying to stick to a serious point and I would really appreciate not being interrupted.

CONWAY: Nancy Pelosi -- Nancy Pelosi who lost her --

ACKER: I would appreciate not being interrupted.

CONWAY: Go finish please because you've been talking for five minutes.

ACKER: If you want to go back to --

MORGAN: Let me -- all right, let me jump -- let me intervene.

ACKER: You're in a bad mood. You're in a bad mood tonight, my friend.

MORGAN: Because actually -- let me intervene.

ACKER: My word.

MORGAN: I think the point is that both sides are pretty exposed by this because Barack Obama didn't fight this campaign on it being a tax. He fought it on a mandate with a penalty. Exactly what Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts. Mitt Romney is now distancing himself from what he did in Massachusetts and clearly implying it was a terrible idea after all even though most people in Massachusetts believe it works pretty well.

Here's the key thing. When it comes down to the level of money that we're talking about in Massachusetts very few penalties have actually been administered. You know why? Most people get the insurance. So it's actually factious (ph) argument, isn't it? You can take it all to the nth degree extreme but the American people aren't stupid.

CONWAY: And -- that's right. And here --

MORGAN: They know there isn't going to be -- whatever this is, Kellyanne, it's not going to be the greatest taxation in history. So let's try and get the argument back down to a sensible argument.

CONWAY: It's something I didn't say on this show, by the way. Anyway, something I didn't say on the show.

MORGAN: Let's get into --

CONWAY: But let me just say this.

MORGAN: OK. OK.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: And I think -- hold on. And I think that Nancy Pelosi used to make up --

ACKER: The congresswoman said it. The congresswoman said it.

CONWAY: Hold on, Piers. I think --

MORGAN: Kelly, Kellyanne, wait a minute.

CONWAY: Thank you. I think that --

MORGAN: Michele Bachmann said that. The question is this --

CONWAY: Yes, I think Nancy Pelosi --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Do you think -- let me ask you -- let me -- wait, wait, wait. Let me ask you, as a Republican strategist, when Michele Bachmann, a very key high-profile member of the Republican Party, when she tosses out statements like the greatest taxation in the history of America, don't you think it's unhelpful to the debate? Don't you think there's a better debate to be had here than just chucking out it's the end of the world when everybody accepts whether they are in agreement or not, the 30 million plus more Americans will be covered under this Obamacare than would have been before. No one disputes that, right?

CONWAY: Some people do dispute that but I've also seen the statistics that there'll be 813 billion plus in new taxes and some would say that's the largest tax increase. But this is what I think is a really important point on that. Yesterday on TV Nancy Pelosi who lost her speakership over Obamacare, people dragged them out, tossed them out of office because of Obamacare in 2010, she is now saying that this is going to affect just the, quote, "free riders."

Piers, Tanya, we were sold Obamacare being told that this is because people are victims. People need health insurance. They need health insurance. Now we're being told it only effects a tiny percentage of people who happen to be free riders. So don't let them freeload off the system.

Let them pay --

MORGAN: Let me ask you -- let me ask you a quick question, Kellyanne.

CONWAY: This just makes no sense. Who are we talking about, the victims or the free riders?

MORGAN: Let me ask you a quick question?

CONWAY: Yes.

MORGAN: Kellyanne, do you have car insurance?

CONWAY: I do.

MORGAN: Right. Do you see any difference ideologically between a government enforcing its citizens to take out car insurance or they face penalties and taking out health insurance? One is a car, one you could argue is even more prized. It's your body.

CONWAY: I do -- I do see the difference because living in Manhattan, I know many people who don't have cars and therefore don't have car insurance. What the Supreme Court held last week was that the government can't under Interstate Commerce Clause force us to buy a product. Wicker vs. Phi burn, they got involved because the guy was feeding wheat to his hogs. But they didn't tell me you must buy wheat, they said now that you -- now that you're feeding them we can control the amount.

So what happened here is they're saying that you can't force people under the Interstate Commerce clause to buy car insurance or health -- but if you fail to under the taxing power of Congress, you will pay a penalty. That's the difference, Piers, here. As a man here in Manhattan --

MORGAN: OK.

CONWAY: -- many people -- there are now eight people who don't have cars. They don't have to buy car insurance. Nobody penalizes them for not having it.

MORGAN: And she -- most people in L.A. has cars. There's no other way to get around. They can't walk. Trust me, I've tried it.

Well, I should try more. Let's turn back to Tanya. Final word. Make it quick.

ACKER: I just -- I want to go back to the way that this debate has been framed. Because when you talk about how many Americans oppose this act. When you actually talk to people about the individual parts of the act, about the fact that now they cant dumped for getting sick, about the fact that children under 26 or people under 26 can still be covered under their parents' insurance. About the fact that there are no longer any life-term, like long limits.

I mean, these are things that are noticeably popular. It may make folks on the right very upset. This is really just a part but this is really just a part of the continuing conversation that we've been having.

MORGAN: And actually it's an important conversation. And what would be nice is to think that the Republicans and the Democrats could come together and reach a point of consensus rather than both going to the extremities of this debate making out the other side is completely mad because actually if you cut to the quick here, mitt Romney believed in a mandate with penalties --

ACKER: As did other Republicans.

MORGAN: And Barack -- And Barack Obama believes in a mandate with penalties. You know what, guys? You agree with each other. Stop the Washington games and get on with covering Americans so they all have health care. That's my simplistic view.

Thank you both very much in joining me. When we come back, the man who rocked America with one of his country's biggest bands. Glen Fry, on your music and all these parting days with the legendary eagles.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Glenn Fire is one of the most recognizable American voices in rock 'n' roll. He's the founding members of the Eagles, one of the most successful bans of all time. And he's made a mark on his own with signature songs for "Beverly Hills Cop" and "My Advice" with your solo after und this is his first in two decades.

Joining me now the legendary rocker, there's no other word to describe you, Glenn Fry, welcome.

GLENN FREY, FOUNDING MEMBER, THE EAGLES: Piers, nice to be here.

MORGAN: It's been lively tonight as you may have gathered.

FREY: Yes. Yes, you know, someone once said talking about music is like dancing about architecture but after watching the last two segments, maybe we should just talk a little music.

(LAUGHTER)

Look, I have sent much of the last seven years living in hotels in California. You have become sin ominous with my actual lifestyle. What is always a raging debate? When people I've spoken about it. It's what it was actually about that song? Clear it up once and for all. What is "Hotel California" really about?

FREY: Well, It's sort of about the listener's imagination. And you know it's kind of some images strung together. And --

MORGAN: What was it to you?

FREY: Well, to me it was, you know, Los Angeles sort of represented a sort of tarnished elegance back when we were working on this record and these songs back in 1976. And --

MORGAN: I love that phrase. Tarnished elegance.

FREY: You know what I mean. That's sort of the way California looked at me. Something that was beautiful and then we managed to start messing it up and neglect it. You know, the story of mankind really. But, you know, it's -- it's the most -- probably the most misinterpreted and most talked about Eagles song that there is and I think part of is just because its images sort of connected together. It's just like a little movie. You know? And a lot of it doesn't have to make sense.

I think what you have to do is just engage the imagination of the listener.

MORGAN: I mean I would took it to mean a kind of monument to American excess. Not necessarily completely negative way but just a monument to excess. When you look at modern American and the way America has developed since the song, what do you think of what's going on now in terms in terms of happy people taken excess too far, do you think?

FREY: Well, you know, what -- what I looked at now, you know, I grew up in Detroit, Michigan. My dad worked in a factory. My mom baked pies at General Motors and worked as a cash register operator at a restaurant. But the middle class which my dad was a part of was moving forward. People coming back from World War I, they had jobs. They were able to afford a car. Sometimes a second car.

I always went on a summer vacation. I always had clothes. There was something, you know, that was growing, in Building. Now what I seen in my lifetime as an adult is really the sort of destruction of he middle class. We've got Rich people and poor people. And now we even have a class in America called the working poor.

You know but I've sort of seen this evolve and it's unfortunate because I think strength of our country is the working class.

MORGAN: What do you think the answer is. Is there a simple answer no?

Is there a simple answer now?

FREY: Well, you know, when Barack Obama got elected, some friends of mine and I, we looked at each other and we said now we're going to find out how broke it really is. And what we found out is that it is broke bad. And it's going to take some time, it's going to take a lot times. This is not going to be done in four years, it's not going to be done in eight years.

But slowly but surely, you know, we have to create jobs and we have to create a future for the working class.

MORGAN: It's interesting debate for the spot. I had Aaron Sorkin and Jeff Daniels who are in this new HBO show, "NEWSROOM," based on a show like this. And there's a whole debate that sparked by the big speech of the start of the first episode where Jeff Daniels; character gets angry about America and the key point he was making was that too many Americans still believe that America is the greatest country on earth when statistically in many, many key areas science, education, so on, it isn't anymore.

There's a lack of awareness about this. Like all things in denial. Until you deal with the denial and accept reality, you can't get better again. Do you think there's merit to that?

FREY: Yes. And I think we're very distracted. I think it's hard to keep focus on the problems because life is so chaotic and, you know, there's so much -- so many things coming at you all the time. But you know, I'm happy I'm a musician.

MORGAN: Yes. Well, you told the world --

FREY: It's quite -- you know what I mean? It's fun to play music every day. It's fun to go to the studio.

MORGAN: Not to be an Eagle. I mean my god, it must be great things in the musical history to say your one of the Eagles. Isn't it?

FREY: It's been very good to me. The Eagles have been very good to me. And you know -- we've, I think we're all really appreciate that now. We're in a very you know, fortunate position. And the Eagles is like a big mothership. You know, and we've kept the band together now for 18 years.

MORGAN: Well, here's the amazing thing. I know the statistic. You've actually -- since your reunion, you've been back together twice as long as you were the first time around.

FREY: Right.

MORGAN: Let's take a break, come back and talk about the reunion. The mother of all reunions, the mother's chivalry reunions. And your great new album which by the way I love.

FREY: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: "Route 66" from the new album "After Hours," and Glenn Frey is back with us now. We're talking in the break there I think right in saying that the Eagles' greatest hits has now overtaken thriller as the biggest selling American album. Isn't that incredible?

FREY: It's pretty something. You know, it -- you know what it does, it's also that people love the songs. You know, it really about the material. And I think --

MORGAN: Could you just retire and lived off the proceeds of Hotel California, the single?

FREY: I'd have had to be frugal, but. Because it must be played like every second somewhere in the world. His name must have been on those of the songs.

It's all over the place. That's the one thing about this song. And people tell me, yes, I was hiking in Nepal and one checked into this hostel, and guess what was playing? You know, so yes. That's the wonderful thing about what we do is, you know, it goes all over the world and if it becomes the soundtrack of people's lives.

MORGAN: How has the industry changed most dramatically for you? Given that you've been reunited now for quite a long time, but you broke up for a while. How has it exchanged?

FREY: Well, back in the '70s, when you put a record out it was a pretty simple formula. You look -- if you had singles they went to a.m. radio, if you had great album tracks they went to F.M. radio. You went out, you did some interviews, there were about three or four television shows. You could do one or two in England, a couple here. And that was basically it. And then you went on the road and promote your record.

Now it's a many tentacled, complicated thing with the Internet and radio, not being as powerful as it was 20 years ago.

MORGAN: Now it's all about life before.

FREY: Right.

MORGAN: Which is my so many of the older bands keep going back. Because that's where you make the big money.

FREY: That's true. You make a lot of -- make a lot of money playing concerts, but really the to promote your music now as television. I mean if you ask somebody your record is coming up what would be the thing you could hope for, and said, I'd like to get a car commercial.

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: Yes.

FREY: You know? Or I'd like to -- you know, lady's perfume or --

(LAUGHTER)

FREY: Something, you know, because it helps, you know, it broadcast over and over and over again.

MORGAN: What is the song, of all the songs that you've ever been involved with, what is the one, if I said, write, Glenn, you've got five minutes to live, you can play one song to be remembered by, the defining song?

FREY: Well, you know I have my favorite records. You know and I --

MORGAN: What's your number one?

FREY: I loved one of these nights.

MORGAN: Yes.

FREY: I thought that was a really interesting song. I thought it was kind of cowboy R&B. You know, plus tones to the saxophone. You know, great, you know, great soul singer Dan Henley. You know, Cool Chord Progression, mine. And --

(LAUGHTER)

FREY: You know that was -- I -- that was one of my absolute favorite Eagles records.

MORGAN: And who of all the acts out there now, who's the one that excites you, the modern crowd?

FREY: Well, you know, I love Adele.

MORGAN: Yes.

FREY: You know? And I think if -- I watched the Grammy's this year, and the Grammy's there was a lot of glamour, there was a lot of dangers, where was a lot of flash, there was a lot of that. And then Adele came on. And everybody was dressed in black and they only White House light on her but she just stood there and burn.

MORGAN: We have two girls, you know, they --

FREY: I like her.

MORGAN: To girls were born I think around the same kind of period, the same year, in the same block of North London. Adele and Amy Winehaus. Really tragic -- I had Amy's dad on last week.

FREY: Yes.

MORGAN: But the pair of them, two -- arguably two of the best singers/songwriters for the last 30 years anyway. Love it.

FREY: And you know, and you know it seems to me that neither of them really cared about having hit records.

MORGAN: Yes.

FREY: It seemed like what they loved was music, and the music that spoke to them was the music that they wanted to perform and be a part of. Yes, Amy Winehaus was out of sight. And Adele is great.

MORGAN: Yes.

FREY: You know, genuine. They're genuine. There's not a lot of packaging going on there.

MORGAN: Well, the same can be said of you, Glenn Frey. The Eagles is one my favorite bands, this is a superb album. I'm going to go home tonight, I'm going to crack open a bottle of Chateau Margot, and I'm going to listen to "After Hours" by Glenn Frey.

FREY: That's a great idea and that's the reason I made this record so that friends of mine and people I meet can have something to play on car trips and late at night and rainy days.

MORGAN: It's the perfect supper club album.

Glenn Frey, thank you very much for coming in.

"After Hours" is out now. I commend everyone to go and buy it. It's been a real pleasure.

FREY: Thanks. Nice to meet you.

MORGAN: There aren't many legends around these days, you are one of them.

FREY: And so are you.

MORGAN: Thank you. Well, thank you. I'm going to frame that moment. If you can frame videos.

Coming up, "Only in America," three women who embodied the true Olympic spirit.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Tonight "Only in America," what it takes to be a true Olympian. Exhibit A is Dara Torres. Most athletes are long retired by the time they're 45. Not Dara. She refused to let anything dim her competitive spirit, on age, nor motherhood. Instead she showed us quite dedication in fighting to make the Olympics swimming team for record-breaking sixth times.

She gave it absolutely everything. And the 50-meter freestyle final today which is broadcast on NBC, but she came in fourth and didn't quite make the team.

Then there's exhibit B, the extraordinary drama between sprinters Allyson Felix and Jeneba Tarmoh. An unprecedented exact photo finish between the two in last week's 100-meter trials. (INAUDIBLE) decision until both ladies agreed to a runoff for the coveted slot.

But hours before today's scheduled race, Tarmoh pulled out moaning it was all terribly unfair and she should have gone through the first time.

The more realistic truth being that she knew she'd probably lose a runoff because Allyson Felix is a much faster sprinter.

Finally exhibit C. Gymnast Nastia Liukin. Her Olympic hopes crashed when she fell face first on the uneven bars. That moment shown on NBC on Sunday she knew she wouldn't be going to London. But rather than walk away in tears, she dusted herself down, wiped more powder on her hands and went back to finish her routine.

She said, "I knew I had no doubt in my mind, I was going to come out here and finish, walk out of here on my terms. Not because somebody wanted me to be done."

And that right there that is the true Olympian spirit.