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30-Year-Old Virgins

Aired July 18, 2012 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.

It is our sex and relationships Wednesday. And tonight`s word is "virgin."

Grown men and women in their 20s and sometimes 30s are still waiting. Some say it`s by choice, others say they just haven`t found the right person.

I say it`s something more. Sex therapist Simone Bienne is here, and she`s not holding back.

Plus, a woman whose husband cheated so she found a very unique way to get revenge.

Call me 855-DRDREW5.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Welcome to the program. It is Wednesday, when we focus in on sex and relationships.

And we`re talking virginity. That`s right, virgins, people well into adulthood who have sustained their virginity.

A new season of TLC is what they`re calling "Virgin Diaries" kicks off tonight at 10:00. Thirty-four-year-old Skippy Jessop is profiled if the series. Take a look.


SKIPPY JESSOP: Would you like to know how badly I want to have sex with a girl? It`s all I`ve been able to think about all last night. I just like sit there with girls sometimes on dates like, you`re the cutest, you`re the sweetest, you`re the best. Let`s cuddle. Do you want to cuddle?

The day I get married I`ve always thought in the limousine ride over, you know what I`m saying? Like I`m going to start putting my hands in those places and stuff.

Oh, the things that I would do to that girl. I want a girl to be like, wait, you`re -- how are you still single?


PINSKY: All right. So according to the CDC, 4 percent of United States adults are virgins.

Joining me to discuss, Simone Bienne. She`s also my "Loveline" co- host.

We have with us Skippy who lives in mom`s basement.

Hi, Skippy. How you doing? Thank you for --

JESSOP: I am awesome! I`m on with Dr. Drew! Whoo!

PINSKY: Skippy.

JESSOP: I love Dr. Drew! Whoo!

PINSKY: Yes, let`s see that. Well done, Skippy. Well done.

We love you, and we`re fascinated by you.

JESSOP: Whoo! I`m fascinated by you.

PINSKY: Well, thank you for that. And you know Simone also. Simone and I do a radio program. We talk to people about these sorts of issues. She`s waving back at you.

JESSOP: Awesome.

PINSKY: Skippy, just got a couple of questions. So, you know, one of the things with adult males -- let me ask you this.


PINSKY: According to what we just saw, the footage we just saw, you seem to have a drive and a desire. You just have elected not to do it? Is that correct?

JESSOP: Yes, yes, yes. Well, it stems from my religious beliefs. Obviously I`m from Utah and I`m Mormon, and a Mormon by choice and I`m a virgin by choice.

I mean, I`m not the ugliest guy in the world and there`s times I could have but I`ve stopped myself and used self-restraint and there`s a lot of positives that come to me because of that.

PINSKY: Give me examples.

JESSOP: Well, you never get an std if you never have sex. I don`t have to worry about kids, you know, a girl walking up and saying, this baby is yours, because I have not had sex before. When you watch the show, it becomes pretty apparent why I`m still a virgin from my actions but not necessarily from my philosophical and religious point of view. Does that make sense?

PINSKY: What kind of actions are you talking about, in terms of your social skills?


PINSKY: You`re not too skilled socially? Is that what you mean?

JESSOP: Well, I`m an odd person and I realize that not everyone has a belly button lint collection or has a heart shaped into their chest hair. So I`m an odd person.

But my behavior has really good roots, you know. The reasoning for being a virgin has really good intentions.

PINSKY: All right. Simone, I`ll let you ring in on this. What do you think?

SIMONE BIENNE, DR. DREW`S LOVELINE CO-HOST: Well, first of all, Skippy, I would like to say, Skippy, your enthusiasm will be met one day, I think, with a woman who will be jumping for joy because you clearly have such a desire to please with that introduction to Dr. Drew, which is lovely.

My respect goes out to you. I want to say that. I don`t want to upset anyone from any religious background. My concern is that if you`re a virgin at 34, it can be very difficult to know what to do, how to feel comfortable intimately, because in my personal clinical experience I`ve dealt with virgins who, you know, through not wanting -- being scared of intimacy haven`t been able to even kissed a woman.

PINSKY: Well, that`s the question I want to know. A, are you afraid of intimacy? And, B, have you had any kind of physical intimacy?

JESSOP: OK. A, no, I`m not afraid of it. And, B, my reasoning for wanting to have sex will be to -- like when I have sexy want it to be with someone I`m married to. So whether or not the physical chemistry is there doesn`t matter as much as if the emotional and spiritual and those kind of connections are there.

PINSKY: Hard to argue with that.

JESSOP: They say practice makes perfect, right?

PINSKY: Well, yes.

BIENNE: That`s true. As long as you`re both virgins, I think. That can be very helpful.

What happens if the woman you fell in love with had had a sexual partner. Does that make a difference to you?

JESSOP: I`m totally OK with that, because I`m at the point in my life where I realize that the kind of girls that would be attracted to me aren`t going to be the 22-year-old hot girl that could have any guy she wants, but hey, look, at the 34-year-old guy that looks like Phillip Seymour Hoffman, that`s the one I want. I mean, that`s not going to happen to me, right?

PINSKY: I hope it does, Skippy. I really do. I hope --

JESSOP: Wouldn`t that be great?

PINSKY: It would be great.

Listen, what I`m feeling is -- my viewers probably want to talk to the 34-year-old guy with the belly button lint collection and heart shaved in his chest.

So, let me go out to Pam in California.

And a reminder, we are calling taking calls all night at 855-373-739, 855-373-7395.

I got Pam. Go ahead, Pam.

PAM, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Yes, I just curious. Do you ever think how many people in the world that are actually virgins at 34? The percentage and maybe --

PINSKY: Do you have some of that data? I said it was about 2 percent of U.S. adults. And I imagine as you get older, obviously gets smaller, right?


PINSKY: And in fact, I want to say this, Skippy, this is for the purposes of my viewers out there, if a male -- one of the things we have to evaluate in men, if they`re into their 20s and they have no drive or desire, which is different than Skippy.


PINSKY: Skippy is clear he would destroy his partner evidently. So - - I mean, his enthusiasm, I`m just saying, with his enthusiasm.

JESSOP: Yes, yes.

PINSKY: Yes, enthusiasm.

JESSOP: Well said.

PINSKY: But -- oh, here comes the belly button lint.

But if they don`t have desire, it`s actually considered a medical problem and I think it`s really important to point that out if anyone out there doesn`t have the drive in finding they are virgin, because they have no desire or no drive -- things like for lack of -- tumors in the pituitary gland are very common, other sorts of hypogranular syndromes can happen.

So, it`s something anybody who`s out there who feels like, oh, what`s the big deal, I don`t want to do this. Anyway, it is a big deal medically to look into that.

BIENNE: And there`s something that Skippy said that I thought was really nice actually, was when he said that actually his partner, his future wife, didn`t have to be a virgin. Because there can be a double standard about men who want their wives to be virgins even though they`ve had sex themselves. And that kind of makes me really coil up because I think, you know, that`s like treating a woman as if she`s soiled goods. And we`re going back to the 18th century.

PINSKY: Skippy, one last comment, then I got to go to break. So finish that thought, my friend. Go.

JESSOP: Well, I`m like Tim Tebow, who is he going to find his match with? Lolo Jones. If the two of them don`t marry, they`re both going to be disappointed in that same way. I think I`ll be pretty good. I hope everyone watches in about an hour from now and they love it as much as I have loved this experience.

I still can`t believe I`m talking to you two. This is awesome!

Next time I want to be in studio!

PINSKY: Fair enough, Skippy.

JESSOP: Bring me in studio.

PINSKY: You are a delight, my friend. It`s been a pleasure talking to you. Good luck with the series on TLC.

Next up, we`re taking more calls. So, please stay with us.



KARISSA MANO: People never really expect me to say I`m a virgin. It`s always the last thing. I mean, 99 percent of the time they`re, like, you`re lying, right?

So far I have never come across someone who I want to have sex with. You know, maybe I`m not easily turned on. I`m not really sure, but the times when I`ve started to go that direction I get really bored.


PINSKY: That was a scene from tonight`s premiere episode of TLC`s "Virgin Diaries." We`re talking to young adults who have sustained their virginity.

Joining us is Karissa Mano. She is a 29-year-old virgin who wants to have sex but only when she finds the guy.

Karissa, are you close to finding that guy?

MANO: Hope so, yes. There`s no guarantees, there`s no promises. But we`ll see what happens.

PINSKY: Yes. Now, you said something very interesting in that piece. I noticed Simone picked up on that. You said when you get close to being physically intimate you shut down and that -- you experience that as boredom.

Simone, let`s comment on that.

BIENNE: Yes. Tell us more about that because if you tell us more about that, because that can be a sign that there is a fear of intimacy, which can be then very difficult to switch your sexual desire off.

PINSKY: Let`s be clear. When you and I talk about intimacy, we`re talking about physical closeness, emotional closeness. People hear "intimacy" in this country and they think sex. We`re not talking about that.


PINSKY: The sex -- the inability to be physically intimate is what follows the inability to be emotionally intimate.

BIENNE: You`re absolutely beautiful but you almost kind of have an aura that kinds of says, don`t mess with me. Is that true?

MANO: Not at all. I`m like the sweetest person ever.

PINSKY: Which is that`s interesting to us, though. You are sweet woman, but you project in the world is, hey, I`m tough, be careful.

MANO: Yes, I guess it just happens naturally. I never really intended it to be that way. I think there`s a very strong stereotype of what people think a virgin is, and I don`t think I fit into the box.

PINSKY: Yes. Skippy fit a little bit better, I`m just saying.

Let`s take some calls. Henrietta in Arkansas, go ahead.

HENRIETTA, CALLER FROM ARKANSAS: Yes, Dr. Drew, I have twin boys who are 24-year-olds and they are virgins. Should I be worried?

PINSKY: No! Let`s not -- Simone, back me up on this. We`re not saying people should be worried about their kids. If a kid has no drive, or no desire, that`s something to look into. If a kid has difficulty functioning socially, that`s something to look into.

You and I have a little concerned for our guest Karissa because she seems to have trouble with, we`re going to look on surface, it`s all right. But the closeness seems to shut her down, which is a sign of that. But just because somebody, particularly people who choose virginity, I`ve talked to many couples who feel like they`ve really preserved something special by doing that.

BIENNE: Definitely. And if both partners are virgins, that can be very useful. And we`ve also got to remind everybody, you only have one virginity so you don`t --

PINSKY: Slow done. Only one?

BIENNE: Only one.

PINSKY: I`m confused by that.

BIENNE: So you don`t want to just give it away to anyone. And if you have sex too soon, certainly research has shown that can damage your sexuality and sort of have an effect on your sexual map as you go into your 20s and 30s.

PINSKY: Yes, we`re much more concerned about kids who get going too quickly.

Let`s go to Callie in Texas who joins us via Skype. She`s also a virgin. She`s 24.

Now, Kallie, you have a little different story than Karissa, right? You`re actually -- if I understand what my producers told me, you kind of have to police yourself to make sure you and your boyfriend don`t cave in.

KALLIE, CALLER FROM TEXAS: I don`t know if we police each other. I know that -- we don`t really come close to ever going that far by any means, but I definitely think we don`t want to put ourselves in certain situations that might lead to something. But, no, we are both very, very dead-set on staying virgins until marriage. There is no doubt about that.

PINSKY: And this is a value judgment that you guys -- that you hold dear and you`re living up to that value, is that correct?

KALLIE: Correct. We both -- we didn`t swear to each other, said to each other. We said it to God. I`m a Christian and we both believe that biblically it says to stay virgins until marriage. And it`s a great promise that God has given us that, you know, it will be great when we do wait.

BIENNE: Do you have other kinds of intimacy, say, do you kiss and you hold hands and do you fool around in other ways?

KALLIE: If "fooling around" means kiss and hold hands, for sure! But we just -- like I said, we don`t make it so intimate or, you know, lights down, dim or candles like you see on movies by any means like that. But we find intimacy through conversation, laughter, hanging out with friends, going out on double dates, things like that.

PINSKY: Which is a really interesting point, which is they`re cultivating true intimacy, which is something we miss these days, a lot of couples.

Julie in California, you want to come in here. Go ahead.

JULIE, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I was wondering, how do virgins deal with the peer pressure around them to have sex?

PINSKY: Let`s start with Karissa. What do you think, Karissa? Because you`re sort of -- yes, go ahead.

MANO: No. I just make sure I surround myself with the right people. Of you know, all of my friends have had sex. I`m the only one in this category and so they don`t give me a hard time. It`s no different than me having a different hair color, basically.

BIENNE: Karissa, I`m so sorry, woman to woman, let`s just pretend no one`s here listening. Do you self-pleasure and do you enjoy your body in that way?

PINSKY: Uh-oh, her ear piece came out just in time for that --

MANO: Sorry. I lost you.

BIENNE: OK. So, this is just ladies, gentlemen, close your eyes for a minute. Do you self-pleasure? Do you enjoy your sexuality in that way?

MANO: I didn`t at first when I was younger. But as I got older ands I got more comfortable with my body, it developed. Yes, I think I`m sexy. I like putting on lingerie and -- you know, the biggest thing about me is there`s no religious reasons why I`m still a virgin. I`m not waiting for marriage. I just haven`t found the right person where I have that intimacy with.

BIENNE: See, that`s something that I would say, when there aren`t religious reasons, if you can, anyone like Karissa, enjoy your body, then that is really, really important. Because then you`re not shutting off that sexual drive, because if you shut off the sexual drive, from a psycho sexual point of view, it can be difficult to switch back on.

PINSKY: Take a quick break. Now, I think everyone is aware that NFL quarterback Tim Tebow is saving sex for marriage. So we`re asking, is virginity becoming a cool thing? We`re kind of hearing some young people say yes.

More on this topic after the break.


PINSKY: Welcome back. Through recent history, virginity is something to be embarrassed about. Now people like NFL superstars Tim Tebow and the Olympian Lolo Jones are opening about -- are very open about remaining virgins until marriage.

So, Simone, do you think this is becoming a trend?

BIENNE: I think so, actually. As sex is everywhere, it becomes more of a choice and a bit more cool to say, we don`t want it.

PINSKY: Too much.

BIENNE: Yes, we`re the cool ones, it`s too much. We have self- control.

PINSKY: And we`ve been talking to Karissa and Kallie here who have joined us very kindly. They are virgins, Kallie is 24, Karissa is 29.

Luke in Texas, you wanted to ask the ladies a question?

LUKE, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Yes. Does being a virgin make you feel like you`re a better person than people who aren`t? I`d like to make a shout- out to Pete.

PINSKY: OK, thanks, Luke.

MANO: Absolutely not. In no way, shape or form. My best friends aren`t virgins, and I don`t have a problem with that at all. It`s a personal decision.

PINSKY: OK. Meghan, you have a question, Meghan? Meghan, are you there?

MEGHAN, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Actually, I have a comment, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

MEGHAN: I am a 31-year-old virgin, and it`s very, very difficult to maintain relationships because a lot of guys, they don`t understand. And they`ll -- I can be in a relationship for about five or six months and then they`re ready to move on.

PINSKY: That is a good point. That is a common complaint. We`ve heard that before, certainly.

Karissa, how do you handle that?

MANO: I`ve never run into that problem because they`ve known it from the bat. Basically, it`s not something that I try to hide. It`s right up there up front.

PINSKY: But a lot of guys will still see that, Karissa, as a challenge. They don`t believe you. You know what I mean? They think, oh, I`m the right guy, I`ll be the one, don`t worry. I know -- go ahead.

MANO: Sorry, I`ve heard that for so long, and just I guess a guy got bored too quickly to keep trying because I`m not a walk in the park kind of girl.

BIENNE: See, I can`t --

MANO: So it takes --

BIENNE: Karissa, you are -- we are just sitting here -- you`re so beautiful. You do know that, right? You are so incredibly beautiful.

And I`m surprised that when you tell guys, oh, and, by the way, I`m a virgin, I`m surprised they`re not dropping at your feet saying, don`t go anywhere. You`re gorgeous.

PINSKY: That`s a challenge. It`s issuing a challenge to a lot of guys I`m sure.

Kallie -- go ahead.

MANO: Most -- sorry. Most of the guys don`t want to spend that time on it. Like if I`m in an alcohol setting, they`re going to go for the girl who`s going to put out tonight. They`re not going to waste time with me.

PINSKY: Kallie, you`ve had the same boyfriend all along, though. So this is not an issue. You`re not dating.

KALLIE: Well, we`ve only been in a short relationship so far. I`ve had relationships where guys have tried to push the limit, and I think, the guy who pushes the limit is not the right guy for me.

I have to be honest. If a guy were to push me, that would turn me off big-time.

PINSKY: Jen in Massachusetts -- Jen, you wanted to comment.

JEN, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Yes. I just wanted to know if she still feels anxiety when it comes to thinking about having sex and still being a virgin? I`m 25 years old.

PINSKY: Is that something you want to ask Karissa or Callie or both of them?

JEN: Both of them.

PINSKY: Karissa, you start.

MANO: I mean, there`s always anxiety there. That was one of my biggest fears, is that I want to do it right. I didn`t want to walk into this super awkward situation. And tonight on the show, you`ll see me getting ready possibly to have sex with someone who I found myself extremely comfortable with and wasn`t really as nervous about that awkward situation.

But anxiety for something you`ve never done? Of course.

PINSKY: And, Kallie, do you want to ring in on this?

KALLIE: Yes. To be honest, I don`t think I`ve ever had anxiety because I grew up with parents who were very open about sexual relationships in the sense that they informed us.

But I would say sometimes in the Christian religion they, like, shun it and they don`t want to talk about it. If that`s what I really grew up in, I would definitely have anxieties on my wedding night.

But it was really a great family that helped.

PINSKY: Well done, ladies. I got to go a break.

Kallie, thank you. Karissa, thank you

And, Simone, of course, thank you. We`re going to see you again later. You`re going to join me in the call section of the back half of the show.

Next up, revenge on a cheating spouse. Is telling the world about it the best way to go?


PINSKY: Sex and relationship Wednesday, and we are talking about cheaters. What would you do if your husband left you for a woman 10 years younger? My next guest lived that nightmare, but what she did with the pain made headlines. You won`t believe her very public appeal to help sell her family home.

Plus, I`m taking your calls on why men are attracted to difficult women. Call us, 1-855-DRDREW5.


ELLE ZOBER, USING EX-HUSBAND`S AFFAIR TO SELL HOUSE: I want everyone to know that I am scorned, that I am hurt, that I am bitter and I am sad.


PINSKY: That`s a lot of negative emotion there. And hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, so the saying goes.

A new single mother of two is turning that scorn into, she says selling power. She made this "home for sale" sign advertising her husband`s infidelity and a little about her bitterness there, too. The sign says "adulterers need not apply."

Joining me, Elle Zober, the very woman who wrote that sign and clinical psychologist, Michelle Golland. So, Elle, tell me about this bit of inspiration that led to that sign.

ELLE ZOBER, HUSBAND`S CHETING ENDED MARRIAGE: It`s all true. Unfortunately, after ten years, he did have an affair with a 22-year-old, and the marriage was over. And, my mom had the idea for a less-PG version of the sign. She is a lot more bitter and scorned than I am.

PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. I`m going to stop you, Elle. Stop. I`m dying to know. Give me a hint. Give me a hint what was in the not-PG. There was something about -- removing anatomy, I suspect?

ZOBER: Something like that.

PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. Fair enough. Michelle likes that.

MICHELLE GOLLAND, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I do. I already like your mother.


ZOBER: Most people do. And I made it more PG and I am a photographer and I do all my own web sites and I do all my own stuff. And when we decided to sell for sale by owner, it was just assumed that I would make a sign. And I made this sign and I approached him and I said, what do you think? Is it funny? And he said it`s hilarious. It will totally sell the house.

It will get us the exposure we need. Go with it. So, I ordered the signs with both our money and worked on a really nice website to try to advertise the house. And how much we loved it, we`re up against a lot of short sales in the neighborhood, which was the original intent. And here I am.

PINSKY: Michelle, you want to ring in here.

GOLLAND: I just -- I have to say you`re fabulous.


GOLLAND: And I also have to say --


GOLLAND: I do, because I also have to say, give your ex-husband credit as well. To me, you two doing this together --

PINSKY: They did it together? Is that what she said?


PINSKY: Oh, my goodness.

GOLLAND: Because, you know, I was -- in knowing I was going to be here talking to you, the thing I wanted to say to you, Elle, was, I hope that somebody hires you. I don`t know if you are employed or you need a full-time job and now being a single mom --

ZOBER: I do.


GOLLAND: -- because your marketing and creativity, and clearly, even as a mother, through that of course you`re bitter, hurt, angry, and you know, this, Dr. Drew, if we don`t laugh, we`re going to cry.

ZOBER: I`m actually not that bitter. I really -- I`m not. I was for a while, and it was really, really sad and I cried a lot. And the more I cried, the more the children cried about just anything and little things and if I was angry, they were angry. You know, just at each other or at toys. And I realized if I faked it, which I won`t talk about how long I`ve been faking things, but if I faked it, then they were happy.

And I`ve realized that the more I faked it, the happier they were, the happier I was. And then, I kind of turned around after a while, and I really wasn`t that bitter and scorned. I`m not bitter and scorned. I wasn`t bitter and scorned when I nailed the sign into the lawn. It was more, like, we`ve got to get this done to get it on the market by the weekend. This happened Friday at one o`clock.

PINSKY: Let`s take up calls. Cathy in Ohio. You want to say something, Cathy?

CATHY, OHIO: I am just so impressed with what Elle did. I wish I had thought of it.


ZOBER: Thanks.

CATHY: My ex cheated on me, and I ended up -- before I moved out, my son and I moved out, I filled the satellite with pay as you go porn for a month. I subscribed to piles of porn for him, and I got his car towed several times, and I had the utilities shut off and canceled all his credit cards and her cards.

I was just thinking with the hurt for so long. It takes a while to get past it, because the pain is incredible.

PINSKY: Well, that`s right. And I`m surprised, Elle, that you have as good an attitude as you do. I`m angry and, you know, sort of upset with your husband`s behavior. Why aren`t you?

ZOBER: You know, worse things happen every day. I mean, people are bearing their children. We`re at war. There are worse things happening to people while we were having this conversation and the fact that my husband hopped on a 22-year-old and had a good time. So, it`s -- I take that super serious.

PINSKY: Right.

ZOBER: You have to sit back and go. I still have my children. They still have a father. We can make this work differently.

PINSKY: Well, I understand that, but if you can be that forgiving, how about trying to reconcile?

ZOBER: He didn`t want to.

PINSKY: Oh, that hurts.

ZOBER: He didn`t want to. Yes, it did.


GOLLAND: Of course.

PINSKY: She laughs about it, Michelle. That`s inappropriate laughter!

GOLLAND: I have to say, because -- you, Elle, are displaying the things that really moms over, you know, so many centuries have done. Sometimes, you just have to get along to get along, and you act as if.


GOLLAND: And because you have to, because you are absolutely right, Elle, that you -- we set the tone if the kids are living with us.

ZOBER: We do.

GOLLAND: We set the tone.


GOLLAND: And what you`re missing is, you were pissed, you were angry, you were bitter. I`m sure you cried your eyes out.

ZOBER: I was.

GOLLAND: And that`s why your mom had the other sign ready to go, because she was protecting you.

ZOBER: It`s not bitter. It`s the pain of, like, thinking about how that transpired with me and the kids in the background, like how could you -- knowing you were going to come home to us, how did you get out of the car, how did you knock on the door?

PINSKY: Elle, how do you do that to your family? How do you do that to your kids? How do you destroy a family like that? But let me take some calls. Lequi or Lequi, is that -- in Oklahoma?

LEQUI, OKLAHOMA: Yes, it`s Lequi.

PINSKY: Lequi.

LEQUI: Yes. I had the pleasure of meeting you at the University of Oklahoma a couple of years ago.

PINSKY: Oh, for goodness sake. Nice to see you again.

LEQUI: Yes. My story has -- I`ve never been married, but I was in a relationship with the same person for 15 years. And there came a time at the end of the relationship where he cheated, and you know, it was pretty devastating for me. You know, a lot of hurt. I tried to reconcile the situation, the relationship, and you know, things just didn`t quite work out.

So, you know, as hard as it was, I did have to let go and while I understand all the pain and the bitterness, and trust me, I did have some negative thoughts and things that I could have done to kind of get back at it, but in order for me to be healthy and move on, it was something that I just had to pretty much just kind of let go.

PINSKY: Well, that sounds healthy. I mean, but it was not a marriage and there was not family and you kind of had to get going. And people -- you know, a statement I make all the time is to retain resentment. You`ll appreciate this, Michelle. To be resentful all the time is like you taking a poison and expecting it to kill somebody else.

So, you know, I`m not saying harbor resentment. I`m just saying -- I don`t think, Elle, you should be giving your husband quite so much of a pass. I`m just saying you`re delightful, you`re giggly, you`re wonderful. You`re being kind to the guy that your mother wants to disconnect him from some of his parts.

ZOBER: Yes, she does.

PINSKY: I don`t blame her.

GOLLAND: I would feel that way if it was your daughter.

PINSKY: Yes. Right. And you don`t want your daughters to be treated like this, Elle, either. So, make sure --

ZOBER: No, I don`t.

PINSKY: Right. So, let`s not give too many passes, but it was a very creative way. I mean, after all, you end up here. You end up on national television just from coming up with a creative strategy.

ZOBER: Thank you.

GOLLAND: Brilliant.

PINSKY: Brilliant, creative strategy. Yes. And thank you for joining us. Next up, now --

ZOBER: Thank you for having me.

PINSKY: That`s our pleasure. We`re going to ask a question. Do men want to be with difficult women? And if so, why? Call us and tell us what you think, 855-DrDrew-5. That`s 855-3737395.


PINSKY: So, we are addressing something interesting here. Why do men date difficult women? According to, here is just one of the reasons. Well, you gentlemen, are a mess. So, you`re drawn to a woman who`s also a mess. Here`s a list of some of the dangerous types that guys get into.

Let`s put that list up. There we go. We`ve got the -- yes, there`s the "B" word, there`s the sexpot, the gold digger, the mess, the liar. I think there`s something to this, Simone. It`s kind of an interesting thing. What do you say?

SIMONE BIENNE, DR. DREW`S "LOVELINE" CO-HOST: Yes, definitely. It`s interesting that it`s on, first of all, because, actually, are women more complicated or more difficult?

PINSKY: Well, women are more complicated than men, and part of the way in which men are not that difficult is, they are very drawn to women that have a certain appeal. You know what I mean? And they`ll put up with a lot if someone meets their criteria of what they`re into.

BIENNE: And maybe that`s because they`ve had tough mothers who obviously, you know, shipped them into shape as we say.

PINSKY: Well, and so, somebody like a liar, let`s say. Why would someone want a liar, do you think?

BIENNE: Well, I think that maybe because they don`t want a real relationship or a deep relationship.

PINSKY: That`s right.

BIENNE: They`ve been used to having --

PINSKY: Superficiality. They lie to themselves about things. And how about, say, the gold digger?

BIENNE: Well, the gold digger is interesting, because one of your producers actually said, I thought I was interested in the sexpot, but it was the gold digger. And I was like, oh, so you`re slightly narcissistic then.

PINSKY: And then he topped (ph) to it?

BIENNE: He absolutely laughed. It`s all about the status. You know, improving your own career or again about the exterior, which isn`t about what a real relationship is about.

PINSKY: Got it. So, Damu, you listening? OK. Let`s go to a phone call.


PINSKY: We got Rita in North Hollywood. Rita, go ahead.

RITA, NORTH HOLLYWOOD: Yes. Men want a lot of excitement, a lady in the street and excitement in the bedroom.

PINSKY: Well, so Rita, you bring up an interesting point is that men like -- the very complexity that men complain about is something of what they`re drawn to at the same time.

BIENNE: Absolutely, because I think men, in some senses, allow women to do their feeling for them.

PINSKY: Well, that`s interesting.

BIENNE: And that can happen.

PINSKY: I`ve known you awhile. I`ve never heard you say that. That`s interesting.

BIENNE: Yes. I`ve seen a lot with couples because you will see women, I can`t believe that he didn`t get the promotion at work.


BIENNE: He`s like, it`s OK, dear, because a lot of men are really scared of getting in touch with the anger.

PINSKY: The "B" word woman that the guys into maybe she`s angry all the time and allows -- she expresses his anger for him.

BIENNE: Yes. And also, I take issue, you know, such a feminist, Dr. Drew. I take issue with them saying the "B" word, because actually, is it somebody who is just assertive? And what I spend time with couples doing is like, come on, guys, you can get in touch with your anger. It is okay, because otherwise, that`s not good for the relationship.

PINSKY: We use the "B" word over here, but on your little island there in England, they use far harsher language. I`m just saying.

BIENNE: That`s true. (INAUDIBLE)

PINSKY: Yes. So, we`re going to keep taking calls. Simone is going to stay with me. And what we`re going to talk about next is, according to a report, married women are just as likely as men to cheat. So, you can give me a call, 855-3737395. That is DrDrew-5. But first up, HLN`s "Our Country Votes."

A lot of you have been Facebooking about President Obama and his wife having been caught on the so-called kiss cam. Here is the shot. Let`s see that. There we go. There it is. Yes. You know, you`ve got to kiss when you get on that kiss cam, right? Yes. That`s cute. Now Allison on Facebook says, "I think it`s sweet. Just because they are president and first lady does not mean they can`t kiss."

Christine says, "How in the world can we criticize a man for showing his affection for his wife? I`m sure, though, the GOP will find a problem with it."

And then just -- I think it`s a very -- listen, if you`ve ever been to basketball games -- my wife and I got stuck on the kiss cam one night. It`s embarrassing, but it`s cute. Stay tuned to HLN`s coverage of the 2012 presidential elections.


PINSKY: Welcome back. There apparently is no gender gap -- at least it`s closing -- when it comes to cheating. This according to Indiana University study. Women cheat at the same rate as men, and maybe more so. Researchers found that 19 percent of married women skip out on their spouses and 23 percent of married men do.

And when they looked at what women were saying as the reasons for their cheating, let`s put that up there, they said, some said greater confidence, mommy stage is over, shifting hormones is a big one. If the estrogen goes down, testosterone goes up, and even that shuts down, bedroom boredom, feeling neglected.

Those last two, Simone, I think are very important. Men don`t pay attention to relationships very well, do they?

BIENNE: Absolutely. And if she`s got 50 shades -- I`m not talking about the book -- if she`s got 50 shades of different types of baby puke on her shoulder and he hasn`t been paying attention, she`s suddenly going to say, well, hold on a minute, I haven`t got the kids anymore. I can go out there and find someone who does appreciate me.

PINSKY: Put up some of the other reasons. There were other reasons as well like some of them were a little more negative like sort of payback and revenge, self-esteem booster, financial woes, stress. I don`t quite know what letting the bad girl out, but exit strategy means they`re precipitating a crisis in the relationship.

BIENNE: Now, I wonder what letting the bad girl out is because of the "Fifty Shades of Grey," phenomenon, and suddenly, they`re saying I don`t want formula sex. I want a few handcuff (ph).

PINSKY: I want a guy to pick me at a helicopter (ph) and then make me his sex slave.

BIENNE: I only want a billionaire!

PINSKY: Oh, my goodness. Kathy in North Carolina, do you have a comment for us or question?

KATHY, NORTH CAROLINA: Yes, I do. Do you feel like women over 40 find emotional affairs over physical affairs?

PINSKY: Well, women generally are more disturbed if a male -- if their male partner is engaged in any sort of emotional intimacy outside the marriage. Men are more concerned if there`s any physical intimacy outside the marriage. I`m not sure I got your question, though. Are you worried that -- are you saying women want an emotional affair after 40? Is that what you`re saying?

KATHY: Yes. I`m basically saying, like, sometimes, you need the emotional attachment over the physical attachment.

PINSKY: Well, I think most of those questions -- most of those reasons we just listed had sort of an emotional basis to them.

BIENNE: Yes. And even the sexual aspect will have an emotional drive or can have an emotional drive to it, because if you`re not getting appreciated in the bedroom, you`re not feeling good about yourself, and that`s when women --

PINSKY: That`s emotional.

BIENNE: It`s emotion, but yes, and sexual as well, but that`s when women can, you know, then go and look outside of the marriage.

PINSKY: Julie in New Jersey -- Julie.


PINSKY: Hi, Julie. Thanks for joining us.

JULIE: Thanks for having me.

PINSKY: Go right ahead.

JULIE: Well, you had a question on Facebook about intimacy problems, and I wrote in to you mentioning that I`ve been married ten years, and I`ve had intimacy problems for about nine and a half of those.

PINSKY: Wow. When you say intimacy, do you mean emotional intimacy or physical intimacy?

JULIE: Both.

PINSKY: And have you sought help for that?

JULIE: We`ve tried, but they kind of focus on other things first, so we`ve never really gotten down to the nitty-gritty of what the deal is.

PINSKY: Do you wonder what she`s talking about, by other things first?


PINSKY: Is he somebody using drugs or substances? That`s usually the other things first.

JULIE: I was.

PINSKY: OK. So drug addiction, if drug addiction is getting in the way, you can`t deal with any interpersonal, psychological or psychiatric problem when someone is doing drugs and alcohol. First and foremost, you`ve got to get sober and deal with that. Only then -- and you would agree with this, too, Simone --

BIENNE: Yes, absolutely.

PINSKY: -- only then can you deal with the remainder of the issues.

We`re going to take some more calls. Again, the number, 855-3737395. We are live. We`re going to take those calls right now. More after this.


PINSKY: All right. We are taking your calls. We`re talking about relationships and sexuality, intimacy. We`re starting out with Jim in Kentucky -- Jim.

JIM, KENTUCKY: Yes, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Jim, what do you got?

JIM: Hi. Congrats on "Celebrity Rehab." I`m a recovering opiate addict --

PINSKY: Congratulations to you.

JIM: I`m a bit (ph) sober for two years now.

PINSKY: Well done. Well done, Jim.

JIM: My problem is, you know, my wife, we`ve been dating basically since kindergarten and that when we were in high school we officially started dating.


JIM: OK. When we were 24, we had sex for the first time.


JIM: OK. We had sex two or three times after that. We were married when we were 28.


JIM: At the age of 30, we had a child, OK? And after that, we had sex probably three times.


JIM: She doesn`t like sex. She`s a smoking hot. I mean, she`s smoking hot girl, but she just doesn`t like sex.

PINSKY: OK. So, couple things. Now, first of all, I know how Simone loves southern accents. So, Jim, you`re making Simone`s day.

BIENNE: And I love the way you called your wife smoking hot.

PINSKY: She is smoking hot. But here -- one of the things that commonly happens is that, after a baby is delivered, there can be a tremendous hormonal shift. There`s the stress of child rearing. Everything is different after kids. Is it that or is there something more here? Did she have abuse or any other issues that can be figuring in?

JIM: No, sir. I`m a coal miner. I work in a coalmine. I`m a hard worker. I don`t do anything. You know, I come home, I love my wife --

PINSKY: No. I don`t mean you abusing her. I mean like childhood abuse in her case. Did something happen to her that would really shut her down as an adult?

JIM: No, sir. She had a great childhood.

PINSKY: OK. Here`s what I want to do. How old is your child?

JIM: He`s eight now.

PINSKY: Eight now and you still have this problem.


PINSKY: You need Simone. This is the stuff that you deal with.

BIENNE: Yes. And this is the stuff that I love and this is the stuff that can be fixed. One thing that I would do is try and make her feel as safe and adored and appreciated as possible. And that can sound really simple, but it`s often difficult to do in practice.

What I would recommend for you, my darling, is put that penny on what we call like an apron and do the dishes, make her feel appreciated, love. Go that extra mile and see whether that can kick-start things in the bedroom.

PINSKY: Yes. Jim, thanks very much for the call, but that`s something as men we don`t do. He sees himself as hardworking. That is his caretaking when, in fact, women need is that nurturing to the relationship, and men, I`ll just say it this way, foreplay begins with dinner.


PINSKY: Listening, talking, conversation. Brandon in Virginia -- Brandon. Brandon, are you there?


PINSKY: Go ahead, sir. We`re waiting for you, Brandon. We got less than a minute.

BRANDON: Yes. Yes. Yes. This is Brandon, and I had a relationship with a really wonderful woman, and a year into it, she told me that she had genital herpes. And I tried to forgive her. She was a very wonderful girl. And I felt very sorry for her the way --

PINSKY: Did she know that she had it or she just discovered it into the relationship?

BRANDON: She knew she had it since she was 20 years old, and she was like 47 now.

PINSKY: Very common for people to have it and not know it. That`s terribly common these days. And so, what`s the question for us, my friend?

BRANDON: What do you do after you move on from that relationship? Now, I happened to have not contracted the disease, thank God, but what do you do after that? Do you just let her continue to go -- the last thing she said to me was, I wish I would (ph) have never told you my secret.

PINSKY: I`ve got ten seconds. Simone, you got some wisdom on this?

BIENNE: I think you have to let her get on with her life and just pray that actually she does the right thing.

PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Thank you, Simone. Thank you for calling and watching. See you next time. Nancy Grace begins right now.