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Colorado Massacre; Jackson Family Feud
Aired July 25, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Did a mysterious package signal an alleged killer to massacre people in Aurora, Colorado?
The FBI has a suspicious mailing believed to be sent by him to a psychology professor at the university.
And the battle over Michael Jackson`s kids turns into an all-out war. I`m going to try figure out what is going on and deconstruct that.
Call us, 855-DRDREW5.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Thanks for joining us this evening.
We are continuing our coverage of the Aurora, Colorado, massacre. I`m trying to continue to help people understand who this killer was and what makes somebody do something like that.
We`re also going to get into the Michael Jackson family feud, let`s call it, that`s coming up a bit later.
But, you know, we`ve been watching all day on HLN and CNN some of the footage of the carnage and survivors. I don`t know about you guys, but I have trouble watching the stories of survival. I can`t turn away from them, but it just gets -- it`s just overwhelming and I`m angry and I imagine you`re angry as well.
Now the FBI has a package that appears to have been mailed by this shooter, the University of Colorado-Denver confirms tonight that it received a suspicious package on Monday the 23rd, turned over to authorities within hours. The mail building had to be completely evacuated. Again, this guy is ruining these people`s lives and the workplace.
CBS News reports that the package was addressed to a psychologist, apparently not a psychologist necessarily, a clinician treating this guy, but a psychologist who is a professor who was known to have treated -- excuse me, to have taught the shooter. And this package contains writings and drawings about shooting people, again, crude drawings showing a gunman and victims.
Joining me to discuss, criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh and psychiatrist Dr. Dale Archer.
Dr. Archer, do you have any take on what was motivating this guy to send these packages or this package?
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Yes, I do. We have to understand that a psychosis doesn`t come with an on/off switch. One day you`re normal, the next day you`re totally psychotic. It waxes and wanes and comes on over time.
I suspect that, as he started becoming psychotic, he knew what was going on and there was a part of him that was really fighting what the psychotic voices were telling him to do. And I think he sent that -- remember, it came supposedly about a week before the actual shooting. I think he was actually trying to sabotage his own plans. Of course it didn`t get open so it didn`t work.
PINSKY: Dr. Archer, you make a point about hearing voices. Again, I want to point out to people, so again, to make sense of this, when with we say psychosis, Dr. Archer and I, we`re talking about a brain state where people hear voices commanding them to do things, they have hallucinations, they believe they`re larger than life characters, Jesus, Napoleon, the Joker. It`s part of this syndrome.
I`ve been hearing the word "schizophrenia" being bantered about, Dr. Archer. Do you think it`s time to begin calling this that?
ARCHER: Well, of course, the onset of schizophrenia is it late teens early 20s. It fits chronologically. We just don`t have enough information at this time.
But if I had to predict and bet, OK, what type of psychosis this is, I would have to go with schizophrenia, yes.
PINSKY: Mark, good to see you again.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Good to see you, brother.
PINSKY: Again, you don`t always make me feel better about the behavior of horrible people, but -- and our lovely legal system. But correct me if I`m wrong, the big issue here is not whether he`s psychotic or not but what about this planning that went into this massacre, three or four months of deliberate just elaborate planning? That`s unusual.
EIGLARSH: Yes. I`m going to make you feel good because the law is on your side, and if your side is to ensure, like the people`s side, to keep him warehoused in prison for the rest of his life or see that a lethal injection is placed into his body, then the law favors that. I`ll tell you why -- there`s no question that one of the issues that the defense will have to prove is he suffered from mental illness. You guys know better than I at this point whether it`s psychosis or whatever it is.
But the next hurdle is going to be almost impossible for him to get over. Because of that mental defect, because of that disease, he cannot and did not appreciate right from wrong at the time, and there is a wealth of facts available to the prosecutor to be able to show that he clearly knew legally right from wrong.
PINSKY: Dr. Archer, my understanding is that people who serial kill sometimes send packages and letters and explanations timed to land after the killing as a way of explaining what they had done. Have you ever had a psychotic patient send you a worrisome package or anything?
ARCHER: Not a package, but I`ve received worrisome letters, yes.
PINSKY: So let me ask you this. As a physician, we are sometimes bound, are unable to do anything in situations like that. You know what I`m talking about? How do we help the public understand -- let`s say there was a psychologist or psychiatrist involved in this guy`s care, help people understand the bind that doctors are in sometimes had they have worrisome patients.
ARCHER: Well, when you have a doctor/patient relationship as a psychiatrist, then confidentiality is paramount in virtually all cases except for three -- child abuse, danger to self, or danger to others.
So, had I been the treating doctor in this case and I got a letter that basically expressed that I was going to harm people and this is how and when and where, then my first step is to pick up the telephone and call the police.
It`s very important to understand it`s not enough to call the patient and say, hey, come in and let`s talk about this. You had a duty to warn, and you have to do it as soon as you have credible evidence that it`s a real threat.
PINSKY: The horrible part is, though, you kind of sensed that this may be coming and he won`t take his medication, you can`t force him to take his medications. That`s when our job gets really tough. Then they don`t warn us.
Let`s go to calls.
Danielle in New York -- Danielle, what do you have?
DANIELLE, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thank you for having me on.
PINSKY: My pleasure.
DANIELLE: My question comes from knowing that these programs can be extremely rigorous and stressful and most university officials understand that the school population is psychologically vulnerable due to such stressors.
So, my question is, what are schools doing to ensure students are mental healthy? And do you think rigorous academic programming should have screening than more (INAUDIBLE) corporations have for employment?
PINSKY: Danielle, you raise a great point. I don`t think we`re doing enough. I think Virginia Tech is evidence enough of that.
Mark, you were shaking your head on this. Do you have a comment on this?
EIGLARSH: Yes, because to every tragedy, we start to look, what could we have done -- I get it -- to prevent this from happening? There will probably be some legislator tomorrow saying it`s a crime not to open up your mail within a week, you know? And that could have prevented the tragedy. You know, how far do you go?
Schools have a tough guy educating kids and you never know, you really don`t, unless there`s clear warning signs someone is going to go and prevent this act. I`m all about Monday morning quarterbacking and seeing what we can do differently.
But sometimes, Drew, as you know unfortunately, some tragedies cannot be prevented.
PINSKY: Mark, I agree, however, I do think schools could do a bit more on making sure that people are following doctor`s orders if they need medical care, if they have a letter saying they`re complying as a condition for their continued participation in a rigorous academic program.
EIGLARSH: It wouldn`t have saved this case.
PINSKY: It might. You don`t know that.
EIGLARSH: It doesn`t have anything to do with this case.
PINSKY: You`re talking about the planning thing, which I think gives this guy a lot of trouble. I`m saying perhaps, perhaps it might help.
Next, the family of the allegedly shooter has been accused of raising a monster. My question is, should we be vilifying the parents or are we just creating more victims by doing that?
I`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAYLAN, COLORADO SJHOOTING SURVIVOR: She liked to draw. I have a bunny in my room, and she always liked to look at the bunny.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re OK? Take your time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is it the stuff that just kills me. That was the babysitter for the 6-year-old Veronica Moser, the youngest victim of the massacre.
Now, listen, Mark, I want to go to you. You`re a dad like I am. It`s so easy to go -- I feel myself, like, boiling with rage potentially. I can`t do anything with that, really, right now. And a lot of people are taking that energy and now starting to direct it at the shooter`s family.
Is that appropriate?
EIGLARSH: Well, I`m not going to judge them for doing it. I personally wouldn`t do it, and I`ll tell you why.
You know, anger is one letter shy of danger. There`s nothing good about doing that. Instead, if everybody channeled their energy like doing random acts of kindness and loving their own family and taking the time to appreciate that life is sacred and at any moment problems could occur that might cause you to lose loved ones. But I think blaming the family where there`s no evidence whatsoever that they played any role other than conceiving this monster, I don`t think is appropriate, no.
PINSKY: I have to wonder if their attorneys have advised them to remain silent out of the media is a smart move, because it`s hard to empathize with them when they don`t really exist.
But let`s take a call. Billie in Michigan -- Billie, go ahead.
BILLIE, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: I agree it`s not the parents` fault this young man snapped. I`m a victim. My 4-year-old daughter was killed with a drunk driver on my porch.
I wasn`t angry with his parents because he chose to drink and drive and take her life. It`s not the parents` fault. I disagree totally.
PINSKY: Billie, our hearts go out to you. How long ago did this happen?
BILLIE: Sixteen years ago.
PINSKY: OK. Well, please, I hope you stay active with some organizations hoping make sense of this -- fighting against drunk driving, making sure this doesn`t happen to other little girls.
I want to go to Dr. Archer. Let`s talk again about a little bit about what parents can do if they have an adult child with mental illness. We`re a little bound as parents. And if you may be answering me, Dr. Archer, also point out things like schizophrenia may not have much to do with upbringing.
ARCHER: Well, you know, in the first half of the 20th century, schizophrenia was considered a disease that was caused by the parents. Now, we`ve come a long, long way since then. We know about the genetics and the DNA and all of the brain chemistry involved.
And the simple fact is that in most cases the parents are not responsible. Shy of outright physical abuse when they`re young, you just can`t blame the parents at all.
But if you are a parent, and you do have a child with a developing mental illness, the one thing we do know is the earlier you get into treatment, the greater likelihood that you`re going to go into remission and do well. Early treatment, early intervention, early recognition -- those are crucial.
PINSKY: Dr. Archer, that is such a great point. That`s what I`m hoping from this program. That`s why with we`re talking about this guy, so there are things we can all take away from this. There`s a -- I`m thinking about last night when I was answering questions, get treatment, get treatment, access mental health services.
I understand we have a problem with the availability and the price and the amount of mental health services out there. But Dr. Archer is making a critical point. If you see trouble, take action. Don`t deny it.
And last night, I talked about conservatorships. Let me take a call before I go into that business.
Leslie in California -- Leslie, go ahead.
LESLIE, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Yes, Dr. Drew. In terms of education, we don`t know enough about mental illness. Most of the public doesn`t know. They wouldn`t even know what symptoms to look for.
I worked in the field and just by education people are angry about not guilty by reason of insanity. They are guilty but not guilty by reason of insanity. It means they`re guilty of the crime, but what is the disposition? Do they go to prison or a locked mental health facility?
I worked in one of those facilities. It`s a very difficult area to get out of. There`s no determinate sentence. You can be extended and extend pd and extended. Sometimes they never get beyond the competency to go to trial.
PINSKY: And, Leslie, but, Leslie, isn`t it appropriate -- you`ve been around these people so let`s enlighten the audience -- appropriate that they`d be contained in a facility like that. You don`t want people that are mentally ill or dangerous out, right?
LESLIE: That`s right.
PINSKY: Is there anything about this case, you having been around a lot of cases like that, does this guy --
LESLIE: Oh, yes, I have.
PINSKY: Does this guy remind you of some people you`ve seen out there --
LESLIE: Yes! I had one man who was extremely intelligent, went to a PhD program but then would break down intermittently and talk to from Mars. But they tend to go to research programs, but they`re kind of loners.
PINSKY: Yes, away from people.
Did he do anything weird with his hair or shaves his eyebrows?
LESLIE: No. I had another patient who was schizophrenic that shaved his eyebrows and did those kinds of things.
PINSKY: Yes, which is not that uncommon.
Mark, do you want to ring in on insanity and where with these patients go?
EIGLARSH: Yes. And that`s going to affect the trial. Jurors know or they should find out at some point that if they find him that he is not guilty by reason of insanity, not only does he not go to prison, he goes to hospital. And then theoretically, once he`s OK, according to the doctor -- which it could be a week, two weeks, a year, 10 years, 20 years, but it could be very soon -- once he`s OK, they then release him. And that scares a lot of people.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, a woman who lived within the sight of the suspect is going to give us her thoughts.
Again, I want your thoughts as well, 855-DRDREW5. Ring in.
Back after this.
PINSKY: Fifty-one-year-old Gordon Cowden, father of four, victim of the Colorado massacre, was laid to rest today. Sadly, this is just the first of over maybe a dozen services.
Joining us on the phone, Aimee. She`s in Aurora, Colorado. She lives within sight of the suspect`s apartment.
Hi, Aimee. What do you got for us?
AIMEE, LIVES NEAR SUSPECT`S APARTMENT (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew. Yes, this has been an absolutely traumatic experience for all of us in this area. It`s brought out a lot of fear, anxiety, distress. It`s just been crazy.
PINSKY: Is the community pulling together in any way?
AIMEE: You know, it seems that way. Right over in the sight where the movie theater is, it seems like we all have been just really loving and caring and trying to be there for one another during this horrific time. So yes.
PINSKY: I tell you what, one thing I`ve noticed that the worst in people sometimes brings out the best in others.
AIMEE: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Aimee, hang in there. Our thoughts are with you. We`ll check in with you as this thing proceeds.
I`m going to go to Marcia in Washington -- Marcia.
MARCIA, CALLER FROM WASHINGTON: Hi, Dr. Drew.
MARCIA: I was at the mall yesterday and saw some kind of weird- looking guys carrying backpacks, and the first thought in my mind was, it`s not school season, what are they trying to hide in there.
And my question is, how do you balance between not being aware of everything that`s going on and being so on edge that you think anybody that looks weird carrying a backpack is going to grab a gun and start shooting?
PINSKY: I totally understand what you`re talking about.
Dr. Archer, are you still with us? I want to go to you and ask how we balance or anxiety and vigilance that has been raised by this experience with being realistic?
ARCHER: Well, first of all, it`s good to be vigilant, and I think probably most of us, most of the time, are not. We tend to go about our day-to-day lives in our own world and we aren`t looking at what`s going on around us. So, that`s a good thing.
But, of course, if you take it too far, like anything, it can become a problem. But you just have to notice and then you have to, what I call, test the hypothesis. So you see kids carrying backpacks, you go, hmm, that`s not exactly normal for this time of year, but then you have to say, okay, what are the chances they`re up to no good? The odds are, of course, they`re not.
But on the other hand, if you see a backpack and it looks like there`s a gun hanging out the side of it, then the fact you were vigilant could have been very good.
So you want to notice, then you test the hypothesis. At that point, most of the time it`s going to be fine.
PINSKY: Now on the phone is Brenda Stuart, she`s a reporter and a mom. She`s from Aurora, and her daughters wanted to go to the very midnight screening of "Batman" last Friday.
Brenda, I imagine that people like you that almost went to the theater or kids, worse yet, kids almost went, have post-traumatic stress much the way everyone else does.
BRENDA SUTART, DAUGHTERS MISSED "BATMAN" SCREENING (via telephone): I don`t know if it`s post-traumatic stress, I`m very thankful, and I keep thinking about how close we came to that sense of panic that everybody else felt here.
And, you know, being in news, I got the call and then I heard the sirens. And I thought, well, why is there a shooting at the mall? The mall is usually closed at this hour.
Then it dawned on me it was the midnight showing, the first thing I did is run into my daughter`s room to make sure she indeed had not gone. Then I spent a few minutes just being thankful and relieved. Then I kicked back into the news -- the news mode that I was in.
But I can empathize, I think, with all the people I`ve been talking to, the people who have been talking about making it out of that theater and being scared to death -- because, yes, I would have been in that same boat running down like all the other scared parents looking for their child.
PINSKY: Yes, Brenda, I hear people now in the news sort of deconstructing every moment of the police and the paramedics` response. And I hear some critical sort of language coming up. I`m going to tell you what, you can never have enough resources for a disaster. It always takes longer than you wish it would have. (AUDIO GAP) an amazing job.
STUART: That`s true. But a lot of people here are actually more -- they`re praising the police officers and the first responders.
PINSKY: That`s what I`m saying. Let`s crush these people that are playing armchair quarterbacks right now.
These guys did an amazing job. You should be sending them pizzas and coffee and thanking them for everything they were able to do. It was a minute and a half, three minutes they were there. It`s remarkable.
Thank you, Brenda. Thank you, Dr. Archer.
STUART: The officers themselves were taking the injured to the hospital. They weren`t waiting for ambulances.
PINSKY: Of course. And listening, by the way, those officers, as far as they knew, were running into guns. They were running into a gun battle as far as they knew. Come on, everybody of. Think twice about this.
Thank you, Brenda. Thank you, Dr. Archer. Again, of course, Mark, great to see you.
Now, switching gears, why is Katherine Jackson no longer guardian of Michael`s kids? People are talking about it. I`m going to break it down after the break.
I`ll be right back.
PINSKY: Katherine Jackson removed as guardian of Michael`s kids. Where did she go? Is this all about money? And who`s taking care of the kids? What about the children?
A Jackson family feud is putting the King of Pop`s three chirp without a mom or dad in the middle.
Plus, we`re taking your calls, 855-DRDREW5.
PINSKY: This has been a hot topic all day, and I want to really take a careful look at it. Tonight, a judge has appointed Tito Jackson`s son T.J. as temporary guardian of Michael`s kids. The children have not heard from their grandmother since July 15th.
In other words, grandmother was effectively their parent and she disappeared one day without telling the kids, my understanding is, anyway. Paris Jackson Tweeted this, "Nine days and counting, so help me God, I will make whoever did this pay."
Now, tomorrow, we`re going to have an exclusive interview with Perry Sanders, the attorney for Katherine Jackson. He said he would be here tonight, but he`s actually meeting with Katherine right now, and he will tell us what went down at that meeting tomorrow. Now, I`ve got plenty of talk about, though.
I`ve got Alan Duke here who`s been on top of this story for weeks. I also have Kerry Burnight, director of Elder Abuse Forensic Center in Irvine, California.
Before I go to you Dr. Burnight, let me first talk to Alan about what is going on here. How do we make sense of all of this? Let me ask you this to start. My understanding is you were just recently, like hours ago, riding with the Attorney Perry Sanders.
ALAN DUKE, CNN WIRE ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR: I`ve been with him this afternoon as he`s sorting it out, and I got to see sort of an inside look.
PINSKY: And what`s happening?
DUKE: Well, first of all, he`s not meeting tonight with Katherine. She`s still on the road. She`s driving.
PINSKY: She`s driving herself.
DUKE: She`s being driven, actually, I should say.
PINSKY: Being driven.
DUKE: And, she really doesn`t like to fly that much. Actually, originally, her trip wasn`t supposed to be a flight. She was supposed to ride in an RV with Trent Jackson, her nephew, to Albuquerque, not fly to --
PINSKY: Hold on. Was this, as the attorney alleged, -- I heard him talking on "Jane" about the fact that she just took a vacation. that doesn`t pass the sniff test for me. When you`re taking a vacation and you`re the responsible party for some kids, you, at least, tell the kids where you`re going.
DUKE: Yes. She -- the best I can tell -- and I`ve seen a lot of this is that she did not know she was going to Tucson, Arizona. She thought she was going to Albuquerque, New Mexico.
PINSKY: Why didn`t she tell the kids she was going anywhere?
DUKE: They knew she was going.
PINSKY: Well, they knew she was going on a vacation.
DUKE: Yes. The plan was for Trent Jackson, the nephew, who`s basically her chief of staff is the best way to say it. He`s been with her a long time. He left in the RV that she normally drives in to meet her in Albuquerque. He had Jermaine`s kids, Jafari (ph), and another one with him. And he thought she was going to -- but she never showed up for the Jackson concert on Tuesday.
PINSKY: I see. And do you -- is this the family -- I guess, it`s the brothers and Janet trying to take her away from Trent?
DUKE: That appears to be what it is, yes.
PINSKY: Are they concerned that Trent is manipulating the will? Is this about money?
DUKE: It`s not about the will. That really is way gone. That was a couple of years ago. They`re trying to make it an issue now, but it is really a non-issue.
PINSKY: So, what is the issue?
DUKE: The issue is influence and control over Katherine Jackson.
PINSKY: Just -- so, OK. This is exactly why I asked Dr. Burnight here tonight. When you`re trying to sort through these family dynamics with an elderly person, where there are stakes, a lot of the old sibling rivalries come up, and it`s hard to tell, is it not, what`s actually going on? Oh, she can`t hear us. Are you --
PINSKY: Are you --
KERRY BURNIGHT, DIRECTOR, ELDER ABUSE FORENSIC CENTER: OK.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
BURNIGHT: Now I can.
PINSKY: There you are.
BURNIGHT: Thanks very much. Thanks, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am. What I was saying was, when you have these situations, we are trying to evaluate whether somebody is trying to gain influence over an elderly patient, whether it`d be for money or to prove that you`re the best sibling, whatever it might be. Dynamics that run deep from way back in childhood are often what you`re sorting through, and it`s hard to tell who`s doing what for whom. Is that not right?
BURNIGHT: That`s exactly right. And although, the Jackson family is, by no means, a typical family, it does bring to light a typical situation, and that is the mistreatment of older adults or the potential for family dynamics to result in really disastrous consequences.
PINSKY: Can you help us deconstruct this particular family? You`ve heard -- I hope you heard what Alan Duke was saying. There`s a cousin, Trent, who has been her caretaker for years. I think the siblings are worry that he has undue influence, and then there`s a rift among the siblings, too.
DUKE: Big one.
PINSKY: And there`s a rift -- and there`s another split with Michael`s kids, right?
DUKE: Well, Michael`s kids are united but not with a certain faction of their uncles and aunts.
PINSKY: OK. So, we have four different factions here. How would you break this down to evaluate the situation?
BURNIGHT: Well, I think the first thing that we would do is recognize that getting the true information of the situation is the most important. So, understanding who is responsible for the care of the children, the capacity of those involved in giving that care, and here we have, you know, five million adults every year who are in situations of elder mistreatment to recognize that it is a common phenomenon.
And that this -- it`s not unique to just a famous family, that families across the country are trying to disentangle these complicated family situations that can result in elder abuse.
PINSKY: I think that`s exactly the point. Just because they`re famous doesn`t make them, somehow, different than the rest of us. It`s the same kinds of situations we see in other families. Let me go to a phone call. Warren in California. Warren, do you have a question for us?
WARREN, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. How are you?
PINSKY: Good, Warren. Thanks.
WARREN: I had a question. How do you not know where your mother is for, let`s say, eight or nine days? You know, my mother was a drug addict. I`m not saying Katherine is, but in the same realm of it all, I knew everyday where she was, every hour, every second, and she was going to a rehab or treatment, I would know. If she went on vacation, I would know. So, how do you not know that?
PINSKY: And Alan, let me flip it a little bit and say that how do those kids -- she`s the caretaker of children. How did they -- isn`t it illegal for her to have been prevented from doing her job as the parent?
DUKE: Well, I don`t know if it`s illegal or not, but I can tell you how they did not know and when they knew. They knew she was going on a trip in an RV, and they were left behind, by the way, with T.J. Jackson, the guy who now has the temporary guardianship.
PINSKY: Did T.J., himself, now apply for this guardianship?
DUKE: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: So, he went after it, because somebody needed to step up for the kids.
DUKE: Right. What if they needed medical decisions to be made? Somebody had to have a legal authority.
PINSKY: Do you think Katherine gave permission for him or encourage him to do this?
DUKE: Well, she didn`t have any idea this was going on. She`s just finding out about that now.
PINSKY: Dr. Burnight, I will go to you, are you as sort of baffled as I am that Katherine Jackson just disappeared on her kids for whom she`s responsible? That`s the part I can`t get my head around.
BURNIGHT: That`s right. I think that`s where we don`t have enough information to understand. Was this something against her will that she was away from those children that she`s responsible for? Or was this something she did of her own volition?
PINSKY: Or is she not well?
DUKE: Well, no. She -- everybody that I`ve talked to says she`s well. And I occasionally see her and she`s always been fine.
PINSKY: She was just on CNN a couple of weeks ago.
DUKE: Sure she was. What happened was she was going on a trip. She was excited about going to Albuquerque to see the Jackson 4 perform. And so, she was taking an RV trip. The day before she was to go there, she was visited by Dr. Allan Metzger who told her, oh, you need to go this other place or you need to fly.
PINSKY: Wait, a physician?
DUKE: Yes. Dr. Allan Metzger who treated Michael Jackson for insomnia for 20 years, testified in the trial of Dr. Murray for the defense calling Michael an addict. That`s who the brothers and aunts -- the brothers and daughters brought to Calabasas to check her out the day before.
PINSKY: Is that her doctor?
DUKE: No. Not a doctor who`s ever treated her. And, her regular doctor, Dr. Copeland, didn`t even know about it. And they got a report from Dr. --
PINSKY: Wow. Dr. Burnight, I don`t know about you, but this whole thing sounds very bizarre. What do you think?
BURNIGHT: I like what you said, Dr. Drew, that bad situations can bring good things to light. And what it is bringing to light is the fact that, you know, there are millions Americans, 10 percent of the aging population, in fact, are in bad situations that we, as a nation, can address for the first time.
PINSKY: So, OK. I`m still baffled by this. I think what I`m going to do is, is it appropriate to take a break now? Can somebody to tell me in the control room or -- yes, break? OK. Then, I want to take more calls, because as you see, I`m confused by this. I don`t know if you guys are confused.
There`s a lot of attention directed at it, but there`s not a lot of clarity. So much of this doesn`t pass the sniff test. A doctor shows up and tells you, no disparagement to the doctor, but the doctor shows up and says, you need to go to Arizona not New Mexico? Doctor`s orders? I don`t think so. More on Michael Jackson`s kids caught in this feud. Taking your calls, 855-DrDrew5.
PINSKY: Welcome back. Law enforcement officials say members of Michael Jackson`s family were actually involved in a physical altercation Monday. News outlets are reporting that Janet went after Paris` phone, then actually, slapped her. Look at this. This is a real altercation. Neighbors are reporting they heard it, watched it. It was well-attended that night.
We are back with our guest, and we`re taking your calls 855-DrDrew5. Now, Alan, you told me during the break that you believe Michael would be very proud of Paris through this.
DUKE: I think so. People who know Michael, knew Michael, tell me that he would, because he, in the 11 years that he had her, taught her something about how to deal with people and how to sort them out, which was a big challenge. She`s got a lot of moxie.
PINSKY: Show that footage. She`s standing up to Janet Jackson. This is a 14-year-old standing up -- let`s be clear. I mean, it`s her aunt, but her aunt happens to be a very important person. I`m sure she`s aware of that. Look at that, she stands right up to her.
DUKE: She`s amazing, you know? Never go against a famous 14-year-old who`s got a half million Twitter followers and is sticking up for her grandma.
PINSKY: Now, Alan, before I go to my guest in the phone, what is your theory about what`s going on here with Katherine? You`ve been in the middle of this for weeks, really, months.
DUKE: Really, years.
PINSKY: Yes, so go ahead.
DUKE: You know, I believe that there are -- I think every sibling has a different motive. You know, Janet`s motive I do not believe is the money. I think she`s got plenty of it. I think she`s truly concerned about her mother. But I think that there`s some of them who really would like to get their hands on control of the estate, and they`re really lashing out and very frustrated about it.
I`m not saying they don`t love their mother. I`m just saying that they think that they should be in charge, not these people who are in charge.
PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, I`m hearing just jealousy and envy amongst siblings. What do you think should be done?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Here`s what we know. We don`t know!
EIGLARSH: We don`t know anything!
EIGLARSH: We`re all speculating. I can`t wait until next month when a trained judge sits down and puts people under oath, and everybody tells their version of events, and then, we can sort this whole thing out. Literally, Drew, after hearing all the facts on your show, I`m as confused as a homeless person on house arrest.
PINSKY: Well, that`s -- that`s --
PINSKY: That`s the way --
PINSKY: That`s the way -- that`s the way I was. By the way, thank you for Twittering while we`re live on the air here, Mark. I noticed you were doing that.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Why not? Why not?
PINSKY: Well done. But that was my point. I was confused by this whole thing. And Alan has been in the middle of it forever, and he`s making sense of it. And I think it again is that issue of, "mom, I`m your best son." I`m the one "mom loves best." It feels like that kind of stuff, even though money is involved here and that makes things only worse.
Michelle in Pennsylvania. Michelle, you wanted to ring in.
MICHELLE, PENNSYLVANIA: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew. I am so excited to finally talk to you.
MICHELLE: This whole situation makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. I`ve been a fan of Michael and their family for years, and the fact that they`re being torn up over money is ridiculous. I`m so proud of Paris for how she`s sticking up for herself and her family. But my main concern is Blanket.
He`s only nine -- between nine and 11. Do you think he`s going to have to have psychological and intense therapy as he gets older because of this trauma?
PINSKY: Well, I`m not so sure. Again -- Mark is shaking his head vigorously. I`m saying that this is a family that -- let me go to Dr. Burnight. Wouldn`t it be more accurate to say that whatever issues are there bubble up in circumstances like this, and they`re pretty intense with this family?
BURNIGHT: I agree. I think there`s a lot going on throughout the family.
PINSKY: And at situation like this, it`s stressful, and so, there are liabilities that those kids would have. But, having had their father die at a young age, I`m sure -- one thing that -- before I go to break, Alan, I keep hearing the kids get exquisite care. They really do. And so, I bet if they needed psychological services, they would get it.
DUKE: Oh, yes. They got a lot of people who care about them --
PINSKY: OK. That`s what I`m hoping.
All right. More after the break. I`m not going away. Stay with us.
PINSKY: I am back with my guests. Now, Alan Duke you were saying that -- first, let me ask you this. Where`s Joe Jackson in all of this? What happened to Joe? His wife has taken away, where`s he?
DUKE: I think it`s noticeable that he`s not saying anything. And, he`s normally around Las Vegas. He spends time with his wife when there`s a certain thing happening, but they`re not that close at this point. They`re still married. They`re not estranged --
PINSKY: But why is he not ringing in on this story?
DUKE: First of all, I don`t think anybody wanted him to. I don`t think any of the brothers or sisters wanted him to, because he brick brings a certain reputation with them that people would start rolling their eyes. I mean, just frankly.
PINSKY: OK. And then, you also told me that there was some sort of agreement reached with the estate that maybe has enflamed this whole situation.
DUKE: Well, the last few months, there`s been sort of ataunt (ph) between the estate executors and lawyers and Katherine and her lawyers. And they`ve been doing things, and like the Cirque du Soleil project and all of that, and you know -- and they`ve been getting along. And I think that has discouraged and frustrated some of the brothers who haven`t gotten anything going with the estate.
Keep in mind, we`ve reported this. The sources are telling us that those two brothers, Randy and Jermaine, actually asked the estate to pay their child support, their back-child support. And of course, the estate refused.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s go out to Linda in New York -- Linda.
LINDA, NEW YORK: Good evening, Dr. Drew. It`s a pleasure to talk to you.
PINSKY: Thanks, Linda.
LINDA: Coming from my perspective as a grandmother and a mother, I think that our first family of music, Mrs. Jackson, I think that she`s just holding on a lot of stress for raising grandchildren. And (INAUDIBLE) in the media with this drama, whatever, I think it`s unnecessary, but we`re concerned about her.
But she needed time away, and she needed to be away on her own, dealing with her adult children, and living the rest of her life instead of being stressful raising 14-year-olds and nine-year-olds and 10-year-olds.
PINSKY: Well, Linda, let me ask this. Alan spends a lot of time with them. Did she willingly embrace this idea of raising the kids? She likes to do that?
DUKE: Oh, she loves it. Yes. And, she`s got a lot of help with it.
PINSKY: OK. Let me go out to Cheri, I think it is, the next caller? Cheri in California -- Cheri.
CHERI, CALIFORNIA: Yes, it is.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am. Go ahead.
CHERI: Hi, Dr. Drew. You know, I think they`re all fighting and it has to do with -- they didn`t even bring in the mom`s doctor. They brought in another doctor. I think they`re trying to get her maybe declared incompetent to take care of these children, and they`re kind of fighting over who`s going to get the money or who`s going to take care of these kids.
PINSKY: OK. Let me interrupt you. Mark, you were shaking your head no. You don`t think there`s any competency issues here.
EIGLARSH: No. I`m shaking my head, because I`m always amazed that how these callers seem to write their own script. And she may be right, and the other caller may be right. But it`s amazing how confident to people are to offer their opinion about something they`re clearly on the outside, that they know nothing about.
And that`s why the situation calls for a neutral magistrate, a judge to find out what`s in the best interest of the children and sort out what`s going on with this family.
PINSKY: Is that going to happen, Alan?
DUKE: No, that`s not going to happen.
PINSKY: Why not?
DUKE: This judge is going to - well, probably, tomorrow afternoon, the papers will be filed to give the custody back to Katherine. And, I expect that this judge I`ve watched a lot in court is going to do it. He really indicated today he was reluctantly suspending her as guardian. And he said with no prejudice against her --
PINSKY: So, he`s going to put her back?
DUKE: Yes. He`s going to put her back.
PINSKY: All right. Alan, we`ll keep on top of this.
EIGLARSH: That`s unfortunate.
PINSKY: I know, Mark. We`ll be talking to Attorney Perry tomorrow after he talks to Katherine. Mark Eiglarsh, thank you again. Dr. Burnight, thank you for raising awareness about this common issue in families today as we all age. We have elderly parents. It`s something we need to prepare for.
Keep the calls coming, 855-DrDrew-5. I`ll be right back.
PINSKY: Got a little bit of time here to take some of your calls. Let`s go to Theresa in Illinois -- Theresa.
THERESA, ILLINOIS: Hi, Dr. Drew. This is Theresa.
PINSKY: Theresa, what`s going on?
THERESA: I have a question. I`m studying to be a registered nurse.
THERESA: And I`m on opiate painkillers. I`m on Oxycodone and fentanyl patch.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
THERESA: And I was wondering if that would put me in jeopardy of finding a job.
PINSKY: Yes. I`m not sure how -- I mean, do you see "Nurse Jackie"? You ever watch that show?
PINSKY: OK. That`s -- I`m not saying you`re an addict, but they`re going to be concerned that there is addiction there.
PINSKY: And if there is addiction -- I mean, people don`t function the same way on opiates as off opiates. And in my -- to the extent that it could affect your judgment and functioning, reaction time --
PINSKY: People are going to be concerned about that. You can`t be an airline pilot and be on OxyContin. I would say most people don`t want people in an operating room on OxyContin.
PINSKY: Now, there may be a nursing job for you out there where it would be OK. Most states want you off everything. There`s something called nursing diversion where it`s a very rigorous program to help people get off these things. If you have to stay on them for medical reasons, I would talk with your particular state to see what the feelings is about that particular --
PINSKY: -- because I worry about it. Michelle in Canada -- Michelle.
MICHELLE, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew. How are you?
PINSKY: What`s up? I`m good.
MICHELLE: Good. I`m just wondering how you feel, like I am trying to -- I don`t know if anybody succeeds in this.
MICHELLE: But I`m trying to divorce my family.
PINSKY: You mean your family of origin, like where you were born?
MICHELLE: No. My siblings.
PINSKY: Family of origin. Yes.
MICHELLE: Yes. They`re just very toxic.
PINSKY: Yes. People do that a lot. And I will tell you, I wouldn`t do it alone. I would do it with a professional to make sure you`re not overreacting or doing something, perhaps, not advisable. And make sure that it has a therapeutic sort of process to it.
And when people take time away from their family and heal and grow, typically, they can go back and find a way to reattach their family in ways that are, you know, healthier for them.
MICHELLE: Right. I`ve just been trying to do this for, like, 40 years, not working. Like, you know, it`s just -- no matter what I try and no matter what happens --
PINSKY: You gave it the old college, try.
MICHELLE: Forty years of this. I just can`t seem to want to do it anymore.
PINSKY: Get some help, though. Get some help first before you make any rash decisions on your own. Thank you, Michelle, for your call.
As you know, we lost a caller, I think, his name was peter who -- lost. He dropped off the line. He asked an interesting question I wanted to address. He said, should Paris, a 14-year-old, be in the middle of this family drama? And whenever children, she`s 14, are parentalized or put in the middle of things like this, not good for the kids. She needs to just be a kid.
I want to thank you all for calling. And of course, most of you all, I want to thank those of who are watching. Thank to my guests. And I`ll see you next time. And Nancy Grace begins right now.