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Children With Schizophrenia; Jackson Family Chaos
Aired July 26, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Can you imagine watching your own child descend into mental illness? I`m speaking to a mom and dad living that nightmare and doing everything they can for their schizophrenic 9-year-old daughter.
Call now with your questions for them, 855-DRDREW5.
And later, Katherine Jackson reunited with her grandchildren after a court hearing, a twitter war and days of family strife. Is money causing the Jackson family chaos?
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Now, I think we are all aware, since the Colorado shooting, people are trying to get their head around what that killer was thinking, what causes somebody -- if you accept my theory, that there is mental illness here -- what causes them to descend into that brain state? What goes on in their heads?
How do his parents deal with the knowledge that that is their child? Could somebody have done something? How can we prevent this from happening again?
I`m going to start with talking about how a parent copes with mental illness. I`m going to show you a compelling piece of tape from "The L.A. Times". Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you know of schizophrenia?
JANI SCHOFIELD: It makes you have imaginary friends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes you have imaginary friends? Are you schizophrenic? Do you know?
SCHOFIELD: I think I am schizophrenic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: With me is Michael Schofield. I also have his wife, Susan, who joins us by phone. That videotape was about their daughter.
And, Susan, I want you to ring in here in our conversation or at any point. I`ll be speaking to Michael here in the studio.
And Michael is the author of "January First: A Child`s Descent into Madness and Her Father`s Struggle to Save Her."
I also have to help me out here today, clinical psychiatrist, Dr. Dale Archer.
And, Dr. Archer, I`m going to ask you to sit tight a few minutes here while we hear Michael and Susan`s story.
So, Michael, when did you first realize there was a problem?
MICHAEL SCHOFIELD, RAISING SCHIZOPHRENIC DAUGHTER: Really, when the violence began.
PINSKY: How old was she?
M. SCHOFIELD: Jani was 5. She was 5. The violence began right around the time that Boddy (ph) was born.
PINSKY: Your son?
M. SCHOFIELD: Yes. And it wasn`t a tantrum. It was one minute she`d be -- one second, really, she would be sweet and loving and then it was like a flip would be switched and she was trying to go after the Boddy, trying to go after me, trying to go after Susan.
PINSKY: Boddy is your son?
M. SCHOFIELD: Yes.
PINSKY: By going after Boddy, did she try to harm him?
M. SCHOFIELD: Yes.
PINSKY: Like try to kill him?
M. SCHOFIELD: She never got the chance. We made sure that never happened. Life then was -- it was a constant nightmare. We --
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Stop. Show people the picture of their daughter in the -- no, no, that picture.
Go back to that with the one with her in the pink t-shirt, please. There`s a picture of your daughter a second ago. OK, she looks angelic. She looks beautiful. She looks perfect.
M. SCHOFIELD: She is.
PINSKY: She is. We`ll get to that part. But when people see a child that looks a certain way, and then where is behavior that is so out of context, let`s say, how do you -- there`s -- that`s the picture I was looking for. How do you get people to go along with what you`re describing and what you`re observing? Was that difficult?
M. SCHOFIELD: It was very difficult because, you know, she doesn`t -- she doesn`t fit the model of what people have in their mind as being a schizophrenic. First of all, a lot of people confuse schizophrenia with what they now call DID, dissociative identity disorder and -- or if they have an understanding of schizophrenia, you hear -- you see and hear voices, it`s that person -- on the street corner raving to themselves.
M. SCHOFIELD: And to try to reconcile that within a child, that was very difficult. And you know, during Jani`s first couple of hospitalizations, because her violence was so severe, you know, she would - - she would actually communicate to the doctors that she was seeing things, you know?
And that -- that -- you know, that they were telling her to do things, telling her to hurt Boddy. And they didn`t believe her because, at that time, 5 years old. She was a child.
PINSKY: Tell about the first night she was in a psychiatric hospital.
M. SCHOFIELD: I -- it`s one of those things -- you`re a father, and, you know, when your child is born, you think about their future and you think do they have 10 fingers and 10 toes. You don`t -- that`s the place your mind never goes to.
And when I first heard that -- when Susan first told me that she had taken Jani to the hospital, which was something that her psychiatrist had been recommending for a while, my first reaction is I was horrified, no, that`s not where the Jenny belongs, it`s not where she belongs at all. Because this -- this -- I was -- even though the violence was happening, I still thought it was a disconnect between Jani`s I.Q. She was -- she has a 146 I.Q.
PINSKY: So frustration?
M. SCHOFIELD: Yes. I thought it was some sort of, you know, maybe early teenage rebellion, even though I wasn`t violent like that as a teenager. So, I thought this is not right. This is not right.
And I expected when I was on my way over there, I thought, OK, she is going to be terrified. She is going to want me to take her out of there. That`s what I expected.
And when I got there, she was right in the middle of the other girls on the unit, who were all teenagers, and she was -- she looked the happiest that I have seen her in a long time. And she came up to me and -- but not -- she wasn`t scared. She just said I`m having a good time. They -- they -- she said, they get my imagination.
PINSKY: I want to bring your wife into this a bit.
Susan, it sounds like Michael was in a little bit of denial there, more so than yourself. And that this idea that some people, when their brain is not working right, they need containment, they need a structured environment and a facility where people understand what they are going through, whether it`s their peers or the staff. Is that what you experienced as well, Susan?
Is Susan there?
SUSAN SCHOFIELD, RAISING SCHIZOPHRENIC DAUGHTER (via telephone): I`m very good with the hospital setting, except when the first hospital we went to was -- turned out to actually be, you know, very bad. But that`s in the books. That`s in "January First". You can read all about that.
But at first, before that happened, the day before I brought her and decided to bring her to the hospital, it was March 8th. And Michael was teaching. It was a Saturday, but he was teaching for doing his -- what is it call, the WPE exam, he was grading, because he is a teacher for Cal State North Ridge.
And so I had both kids with me, along with a nanny, because my mom knew the trouble that we were having with Jani at the time. So, she actually paid for me to have a nanny along with me while Michael was teaching so that way, you know, we could -- he could still make some money and I could get through the day.
But what happened was when Boddy was starting to cry, Jani went after him in a way that frightened the nanny so much that she said, you have got to call 911 right now.
And I thought this nanny that I had, she had told me before that, you know, she had autistic nephews. So, she had seen all the meltdowns that could possibly be and that`s what I wanted. I wanted somebody who understood that, you know, my child this is not babysitting.
And so -- but when she did, she becomes that violent and go after Boddy, that`s when I --
PINSKY: Can I interrupt? And you`re describing terrible experiences, booth of you, you too, you`re tearing up a little bit or is it that just the lights?
M. SCHOFIELD: It was one of the worst periods of my life, yes.
PINSKY: So you`re remembering this that`s why you`re tearing?
S. SCHOFIELD: Well, he was at work on the Saturday and then what happened was --
PINSKY: Susan, I`m sorry, Susan, I have to interrupt, we are running out of time here. I`m so sorry. I just want to be clear on this you both seem to speak about this, although you are getting emotional inside, you are able to say this, describe all this in a rather dispassionate way.
So, I want to talk about where you guys are now, which must be a much better place, because you are crying when you think about where you were. I want to see about how this story ended. I want to look at a little more footage of your daughter, so people get a sense of what that is. Then I want to connect al this after all, this conversation has been started because of the horrible experience in Aurora and how we can prevent these things from happening.
Of course, we`ll be taking your calls, 855-373-7395. Stay with us. We are not going away.
PINSKY: OK, a reminder where we are here right now. We are with two parents whose young daughter is schizophrenic. Also I`ve got a psychiatrist, Dr. Dale Archer, who I`ll be going to help us understand this.
I want to quickly turn to another clip of January from "The L.A. Times," so you can, again, understand what schizophrenia is. People see things, hear things, think they are somebody different. I think you described it as, like, seeing two movies simultaneously and trying to reconcile them.
M. SCHOFIELD: It`s, you know, obviously, one of my greatest wishes is that I could actually, I know this may sound strange, but I wish could I actually see what Jani, what she sees, because it is so easy when she is talking about them to just dismissive because I can`t see them.
PINSKY: Let`s watch this tape of her describing exactly that. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does it feel like when Wednesday tells you to hit or kick?
J. SCHOFIELD: Wednesday bites me until I do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what does 400 do?
J. SCHOFIELD: She scratches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She scratches?
J. SCHOFIELD: Because she doesn`t know how to hit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Dr. Archer, she is describing hallucinations that are somewhat threatening. And then sometimes, as you and I well know, hallucination, whether they are auditory or visual or both can be commanding. Can we connect what we are talking about here or can you, for us, what might have been going on with the shooter in Aurora?
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Yes, absolutely, you are right. They are hallucinations, which is either hearing or seeing things that aren`t there. And then there are delusions which are thoughts that are just not true. And you combine the two, and you have a very sick brain. But if you think about it, if these hallucinations are telling him people are out to get you, you are going to have to protect yourself, there are people in that movie these they`re really, really want to harm you and if you don`t strike them first, you`re going to be in big trouble.
And then the next thing you know, they start building on the delusion, the hallucinations keep talking to them, telling them about the danger, telling them they have to protect themselves and an elaborate plan is hatched in self-defense in his delusional mind.
So, that`s how this could have played out.
PINSKY: And so, Michael, the -- one of the messages I hope people will get if they have a family member and loved one having these symptoms, get help?
M. SCHOFIELD: Yes, now, the problem is in getting that help. Even let`s say the teenage years, there is always the instinct of door down play it and understandably so. I mean, you know, the doctor shouldn`t necessarily jump to you know, the worst possible diagnosis out there. But there is such a difficulty in getting help.
PINSKY: And, by the way, you are someone with resources, an intelligent person. How about people that don`t have resources?
M. SCHOFIELD: And also, we have health insurance, too.
PINSKY: Right. In this country today, it is not just getting the proper care, it is getting to care, getting somebody to listen, adequate, enough care.
M. SCHOFIELD: Well, what I think it boils down to is although there is supposed to be parity between mental health and physical illnesses, the reality is no.
PINSKY: You are singing to the choir. I have worked in a psychiatric hospital for 25 years and it`s stunning.
Listen, by the way, part of that problem is as a culture, we still do not look at psychiatric illness as brain diseases. We still look at them as disorders of, I don`t know, the soul or the self.
Let`s go to a call, Diane in Ohio. Diane?
DIANE, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Dr. Drew. I was just calling because I have lived with severe and persistent mental illness for 20 years now.
PINSKY: You, yourself?
DIANE: I`m sorry?
PINSKY: You, yourself?
PINSKY: Excellent. OK.
DIANE: I know what it is like to have those psychotics, feelings, thoughts and even a plan. Today, I live in full recovery. Twenty years later, I`m getting my masters degree in mental health counseling.
PINSKY: Wow, that`s a great story.
PINSKY: And your daughter right now is lot better, is that right, Michael?
M. SCHOFIELD: Yes, she`s come a long, long way you big, big change. Two big changes, first, we were -- for two years, we had to live apart. We had to live in two separate apartments.
PINSKY: You and your wife?
M. SCHOFIELD: Yes, Susan actually came up with that idea because the Department of Mental Health, the only option they were giving us was to send Jani to out-of-state residential and we weren`t willing to send her away.
PINSKY: By herself.
M. SCHOFIELD: We weren`t going to send our child away.
PINSKY: Susan is with us on the phone.
Susan, I imagine that was a major, major deal for your marriage?
S. SCHOFIELD: Yes, yes, it was. We, you know, Jani trained us as a baby, she never slept, we had team work. Both of us -- we put the kids first and we didn`t want to -- we didn`t want Boddy growing up afraid of his sister.
PINSKY: So let me get straight. Was it the fact --
PINSKY: Hang on, Susan, is it the fact she was going to -- you`re afraid she`s going to attack Boddy. You`re afraid she`s going to physical injure --
S. SCHOFIELD: We were afraid at the time, but we also didn`t want, we were living in fear too, and it was (INAUDIBLE) to our marriage --
S. SCHOFIELD: -- because we had nobody to turn to except this other and blaming each other for this and possibly done wrong to make it happen - -
PINSKY: OK, here is the deal.
S. SCHOFIELD: It`s a mental illness.
PINSKY: That`s right. I want to talk about parents taking on that role of feeling guilty and responsible.
And by the way, the public accusing the parents, say you of this killer in Aurora. How that goes down. Take more calls. This group stays with me. Don`t go away.
PINSKY: We`re talking about and trying to understand mental illness, particularly schizophrenia which we were postulating is what the killer in Aurora is afflicted with.
How do we separate your daughter and that killer, what`s the difference?
M. SCHOFIELD: For me the only difference between Jani and James Holmes is that Jani got help early and she will have that support system for the rest of her life. You know, for me -- now, that doesn`t mean that I think Jani is going to shoot up a theater, girls aren`t generally drawn to guns, although there was the case in 1980 that opened fire on the elementary school across the street and her answer for why she did it is I don`t like Mondays.
It`s -- so it`s not that I think that Jani will do that, but I really do really believe that had Holmes had a support system, had he had somebody or a group of people that could -- you know, could challenge his reality with our reality, with the common reality that we live in, he would not -- those 12 people in Colorado would be alive.
PINSKY: Dr. Archer does that fit with your assessment that either the treating team or the family or the community, either didn`t step in or caved?
ARCHER: Well, I think they probably didn`t step in because you have to remember that this was a new onset psychosis. By all accounts, this was a relatively normal kid all the way through high school and perhaps all the way through college. It looks like this was about six months` duration when he really started to go down hill.
And unless you have somebody that`s very attuned to mental illness and knows what`s going on at that point, it`s very difficult to get someone into treatment, because you got to remember, they are fighting this and saying, I`m OK, I`m OK this is -- I can handle this, this is not going to get to me. At the same time, they are not OK. And they desperately need help.
They desperately need somebody to recognize this guy is really going down hill. And I think he may be hallucinating. I think he has some really strange ideas.
And when you do recognize that, and if you can get them into treatment, it can make all the difference in the world. And I think, unfortunately, for whatever reason, no one recognized it and no one was there for him.
PINSKY: I want to go back to Diane, who`s my caller a few minutes ago.
Diane, is that what happened to you, did someone reach out and help you?
DIANE: Absolutely. My mother was the only one who really stood by me the entire time. When they said I would be institutionalized the rest of my life, my mother said, over my dead body and got me to a different doctor.
So, you know, I`ve been blessed with a very good doctor and very good therapist --
PINSKY: How bad did it get for you? Were you nearly a shooter yourself?
DIANE: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: What was your plan?
DIANE: I had a detailed plan to kill my parents and to go back six years after the fact to high school to kill a teacher.
PINSKY: And how do you help then people out there in the world make sense of people that are thinking like that? Give us a little pearl and then we got to go to break.
DIANE: The best way I can explain it, it is like a fire that`s building inside of you and every little thing kindles it a little bit until one day, you just can`t take it any more and you need to act out.
PINSKY: I got go to break. More of this after the break.
DIANE: OK. Sure.
PINSKY: After days of family discord, Katherine Jackson is back here in Los Angeles with her grandkids. But troubling questions remain, why was she in Arizona that long and was her statement coerced before saying that? And is this all about money? That and more. Your calls, 855-DRDREW5.
But, first, we continue to finish our cover about a young girl with schizophrenia, how parents can cope.
All right. Right. So, you were saying, you were telling me a little bit before we went to air how bad it got. How bad did it get?
SCHOFIELD: There was a time I took our dog Honey out for a walk. Jani was going to come with me. And she -- we get to the parking lot and then she doesn`t want to go any further. And I`m thinking, OK, you know, this happened before, we just waited out, you know? But then she starts coming after Honey, trying to hit Honey. And, we had a friend with us, and he ended up having to take Jenny back to our apartment. This was before we split into the two apartments. And, I come back in from walking the dog, and our friend`s son, he`s at -- Jenny at the door, he`s crying.
And he`s saying, you know, it went all question, I thought, you know, she was feeling better. I went in, and I immediately knew something was wrong. So, I rushed passed him. And I see my friend up against the wall of -- of -- by the window of Jenny`s room and Jenny`s legs are between his and he`s trying to pull her back in, she`s trying to --
PINSKY: Jump out the window?
SCHOFIELD: Jump out the window. And she`s screaming, I want to get away, I want to get away," and it`s two-story drop to the ground, and she`d go head first. And I remember, it struck me then, ok, whatever is out there is not as bad for her as what`s in here.
PINSKY: Yes, right. That`s a great way of sort of thinking about this. Tiffany in South Carolina -- Tiffany.
TIFFANY, SOUTH CAROLINA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thank you for taking my call.
TIFFANY: I can relate to so much that`s been head said in the show today and show tonight. I have a daughter who is nine years old, and she`s been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, ADHD, and anxiety. And they have talked about schizoaffective disorder.
How close is schizoaffective and bipolar symptoms? And, how do you get the mental health system to recognize how serious it is when you see it?
PINSKY: OK. Dr. Archer, I`m going to go to you. She asked several different questions there. They`re all very sophisticated and very difficult. Maybe we should just distill it down to how do parents, whether it`s a child or an adult, deal with the guilt, the grief, and the frustration of a child with mental illness?
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, the first thing the parent is going to do is try to blame themselves. You know, what did I do wrong? How can I have been a better parent? How can I prevent of this? And of course, you know, we know today that this is all related to DNA genetics, biochemistry in the brain.
Obviously, what parents can do and they have to understand is genetics and brain chemistry are primary, but you know, 30 years ago, we thought meds were the answer. We know now that meds are very, very important, but we also know that therapy is every bit as important. And a good, stable family environment can make a huge difference, and group therapy, individual therapy.
All these things we thought that meds were going to make obsolete, they really haven`t. And now, we know that the combo treatment is most important, but the single most important thing for a child and for parents out there to understand, if you can provide them with a good, stable home and a routine, then they do infinitely better than if they don`t have that.
And, that`s the one thing that parents have to remember.
PINSKY: Same rules apply to the healthy kids as the kids are struggling. Elizabeth in North Carolina -- Elizabeth.
ELIZABETH, NORTH CAROLINA: Hey, Dr. Drew. How are you?
PINSKY: Good, thanks.
ELIZABETH: I was in the same situation about 13 years ago. I have a schizophrenic son and at three, he was killing animals, he was cutting me with butcher knives, he was putting bleach, trying to kill his brother, baby brother, in his bottles, and things like that. And we got him therapy, we got him help.
Unfortunately, I was a single mother, so he was taken away and put in a group home, because it was unsafe for him to be in the same whole as my infant child.
Now, my questions for you is, I know that she is not to that point yet, but do you have any plans in the future of, if there is a time when she`s alone with her brother or another child and have you made plans of what would happen and how you are going to deal with that situation?
SCHOFIELD: Yes. We -- first of all, our house -- I mean, our apartment, you know, any sharp object is kept well-off out of, you know, out of reach, you know? We have no glass. We have no ceramics. We have no sharp objects at all.
PINSKY: But let me rephrase things differently. How do you imagine transitioning her into the world? Is that going to happen, do you think, or is it going to be structure indefinitely?
SCHOFIELD: I think that Jenny is going to need structure indefinitely. I mean, I`m not thinking about her going to college or, you know, finishing high school. I mean, if she manages to do that, that`s great
PINSKY: She`s bright, still. Super bright.
SCHOFIELD: Yes, she is. But the key to remember is that those things, you know, going to school, they`re very stressful. And stress is - - has a huge impact on psychosis. You know, that is the door through which psychosis can get back in. So, we don`t want to -- we don`t want to put stress on her.
So, whatever -- for me -- there was a time when I thought she was going to slip into her own world and never come back. I thought we were going to lose her forever, and I remember thinking to myself, saying to myself then, if we get her -- if she comes back, everything else is gravy and that`s really how I feel. My priority --
PINSKY: And you have her back now?
SCHOFIELD: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: It`s interesting. As you were talking, I was thinking to myself how much easier people find it to say oh, she`s possessed by the devil or she has --
PINSKY: Or you know what I mean, or evil has entered her body than to, Dr. Archer, the reality of a genetically predisposed brain disorder. We got to get people up to speed, don`t you agree?
ARCHER: I totally agree. And I think this is a classic case because she has an IQ of 146. She`s extremely bright. She looks like a sweet little girl, like a normal little girl. And I think that is what we have to get across to the public. It`s not the homeless guy walking down the street talking to himself that is defining schizophrenia.
That`s a very small percent of the folks out there. A lot of them are living with families, a lot of them actually have jobs, a lot of them are out there in the environment, and you have to understand that they have a broken brain. It doesn`t mean that it`s totally going to define their life forever.
But it does mean that it is an illness and something that they have to cope. And we need to be understanding about that.
PINSKY: Thank you, Dr. Archer. Thank you, Michael, for sharing the story.
SCHOFIELD: Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
PINSKY: I appreciate it very, very much. Good luck.
Now, we`re going to go from this kind of a story of trouble to a new troubled family, this is the Jacksons. The latest after the break.
And, for more on any story you see here tonight, go to HLNTV.com/DrDrew. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHERINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S MOTHER: There are rumors going around about me that I`ve been kidnapped and held against my will. I`m here today to let everybody know that I`m fine, and I`m here with my children, and my children would never do anything like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. That was Katherine Jackson last night on ABC News "Nightline." Apparently, right now, she is again with the grandkids. Alan Duke, you have an update of what is happening at this moment?
ALAN DUKE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, this afternoon, she has been talking with her grandkids, Paris, Blanket, and Prince. And they have, I`ve been told, disabusing her of notions that she was told while she was away.
PINSKY: What was she told?
DUKE: Well, according to Prince, she was filled with lies. That`s what Prince tweeted this morning, lies from his aunts and uncles who took her to Tucson, Arizona. And also, I believe her lawyer is probably with her by now. I think it was a little late in the day. She slept late today, didn`t get up to the afternoon. So --
PINSKY: So, who took her and why?
DUKE: It`s very clear now who took her. Ribbie, Jermaine, Janet, and Randy Jackson worked in a plan to get her, instead of going to Albuquerque, New Mexico in an RV where she was going to go to see a Jackson concert, they convince her to get on a plane which landed in Tucson, Arizona and a limo that took her to this spa.
And that part of that was convincing her she needed rest by having a doctor visit her the day before, a doctor she`d never seen before visit her and say she needed to go.
PINSKY: Why? Why are they doing this? And what is it the kids are disabusing her of?
DUKE: Well, Michael Jackson`s children want her to believe and understand in their belief that those four that I named are trying to control her unfairly, and they say that she should stand up on her own feet. That`s what they`re telling her.
PINSKY: But why? What is behind this?
DUKE: There`s a lot of money at stake. And there`s also control of your mother. Dr. Drew, you can tell me more about those issues, about how the family dynamics are, but that is exactly what`s happening now, a divided family.
PINSKY: Well, oftentimes, that need to groom and sort of move somebody away is because there`s undue influence perceived by some other family member. Was there someone who tried to remove her from?
DUKE: There is her nephew, Trent Jackson.
PINSKY: And he`s the one they actually had a fight with, right?
DUKE: There was a physical altercation, deputies came out, nobody charged, investigations still going on, but it happened in the foyer of the house where Trent lived. So, I doubt he could be charged because he was in his own home.
PINSKY: But it`s -- pure speculation, but it`s looking like the four are trying to get her away from Trent and maybe the kids sort of have an affection for Trent or something, the grandkids, something like that.
DUKE: But the irony is, they can`t do that now because Katherine is not the one who would be employing Trent. That would be T.J. Jackson, Tito`s son, who now has control of the whole thing.
PINSKY: But Katherine wants it back. There`s a picture of Paris and Janet duking it out there, but she wants it back? Katherine wants to be back --
DUKE: Yes. But she`s not going to get it back, unless, she meets with her lawyer, and he is able to put a petition before the judge and convince the judge to give it back.
PINSKY: I see.
DUKE: Now, she gets rid of this lawyer or doesn`t meet with this lawyer and gets a lawyer appointed by those four who are -- who took her to Tucson. I really don`t think this judge is going to go along with that and T.J. is going to keep the kids.
PINSKY: All right. Take a quick call. Rudy in West Virginia -- Rudy.
RUDY, WEST VIRGINIA: Yes. First of all, may God grant serenity to Miss Jackson, especially wisdom and understanding. A mother, a grandmother, 84 years old, grieving, has all rights to go and (INAUDIBLE) and that`s what she needs to do right now. She`s got a lot of enemies against her.
But, you know, at no time did she neglect them children. I mean, here`s a mother that have raised a whole family of kids that have, you know, contributed to America and have done really well in America.
Now, all of a sudden, you know, with this whole grieving process, and that`s basically what they`re going through right now, and there`s nobody in charge. Michael was the one who was in charge when he was living.
PINSKY: Rudy, you`re bringing up a really important point. Two things, first of all, is, you know, blessings to this woman that she should thrive and feel good, because -- and second point is no one is taking issue with Katherine`s ability to function or take --
RUDY: Last night, I heard -- last night`s program, I heard several comments that was made on the air that, you know, she should be locked up, this and that.
PINSKY: Oh, no, no. No. Rudy, I`m going to stop you, because Alan is on top of this. He knows them well. Set that record straight.
DUKE: Right. No, Katherine is very competent, in my opinion. I`ve seen her with the children. And she has a great support staff, and the kids are exquisitely cared for.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s the one thing that I think everyone points at or can look at and see that these kids, certainly Paris looks at and says there`s a great kid.
PINSKY: Yes. Great kids. Well cared for. Grandma is managing this. Michael did an amazing job with these kids. It`s the family of origin that`s struggling right now, not the grandkids. We just got to make sure they are safe and get adequate care. Alan, thanks for the update. Anything else before we go?
DUKE: Yes. I got a call from Conrad Murray`s lawyer tonight.
PINSKY: Tell me.
DUKE: And I need to share this with you. Conrad Murray has seen the coverage of Katherine Jackson on television and feels bad for her, says she looks sad, and so, he has sent through me, through his lawyers, Valerie Weiss and Michael Flanagan, a message to Katherine. He`s going to put her on the jail visitors list.
He`s inviting her to come. He says, "it would give me great pleasure to sit one-on-one and answer any questions she might have that would put her at peace."
DUKE: He`s not offering an apology but answers to Katherine Jackson, the mother of Michael Jackson, from the doctor convicted of killing Michael Jackson.
PINSKY: Thanks, Alan. We got to take a break.
Next, a haunting voicemail from Jerry Sandusky. You don`t want to miss it, after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just calling to see -- I don`t know whether you had any interest in going to the Penn State game this Saturday. If you could get back to me, let me know, I`d appreciate it. And when you get this message, give me a call. And I hope to talk to you later. Thanks. I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jerry Sandusky in a phone message left for victim number two. That is the young man that Sandusky had in the shower in 2001, central to the case against him. The message was left last fall, two months before Sandusky`s arrest. This according to attorneys for victim number two as he is called, again the kid in the shower. They released the message.
CNN could not independently verify that that, in fact, is Sandusky on the tape, but, just think about that mind telling, two months before he was arrested for child molestation, saying I love you to the guy, the kid, that -- oh, it`s just too much. Let`s take a call. Janie in Tennessee -- Janie.
JANIE, TENNESSEE: Hello, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am. How are you?
JANIE: Oh, doing well.
JANIE: I have a question. I know the emphasis has been on the victims of this Sandusky scandal.
JANIE: But I have been wondering about the unrecognized victim -- victim, the mothers and the parents who unknowingly put their children in danger of supposedly reputable sports figure.
JANIE: My question is, what would you say or do for them, dealing with the guilt, beating themselves up, and how to repair their self-worth?
PINSKY: Let me ask you this, did you have something like this happen? It sounds very personal for you.
JANIE: Um, yes.
PINSKY: What happened?
JANIE: Um, my -- um -- I was abused early on.
JANIE: And then I found out that my daughter that I had placed in babysitter situation and some unfortunate family situation.
PINSKY: Is it Janie or Jani?
PINSKY: Janie. Janie, the incredible pattern of abuse in childhood, sexual abuse particularly, is, let`s say a woman is sexually abused as a child, she then has an uncanny propensity, without knowing it, unconsciously of being around people and bringing people into her life who are potential perpetrators.
And then, they, of course, perpetrate on their children. It`s uncanny. It`s painful. And then, these moms, the moms like yourself, who are sort of confronted with what has happened, they go into denial. It`s too painful. You can`t accept that you put your child in a situation that`s so shattering for you.
Then, you have to go through it all again on behalf of your child and be shattered yet again. The important message here is get treatment early. Get treatment early in the game so these patterns stop. Once it`s happened, it is the same shattering experience. Get help, get support. It`s the same as getting over the trauma in the first place. More calls after the break.
PINSKY: OK. Much of this program, we`ve been talking about the nature of schizophrenia and trying to raise awareness of something awful like in Aurora does not occur. And Cindy Benevidis (ph) Twittered me, "Has the brain of a schizophrenic ever been studied postmortem? I wonder what it may reveal?"
Well, of course, these things have been studied extensively, but the reality is it`s not something that is so much about the anatomy of the brain, but the function of the brain. So, I want to throw something up here on the board very, very quickly. This is my rotating brain, of course.
And what we look at now are these things called functional MRI scans that tell us about the relative activity, where it is excess activity, where it`s red, where it`s yellow, and blue is the cold activity, meaning the brain function is diminished.
We compare these relative functions in various regions, and we know some of the functions of these regions, the parietal region, the temporal region, down here the frontal this is the occipital we`re looking at now.
We know a ton about these various regions and how they work and what is going on, what it means? If there`s a hot region here, say as opposed to a cold region up here, when there shouldn`t be that sort of activity in a normal brain, and we start to study what the wiring is and what the biology (ph) of the various regions.
So, the anatomy is not the problem, it is the function. I hope that helps understand some of this. So, I`m going to wrap up my brain and go now back out to my calls. I think I have now Robert in Arizona -- Robert.
ROBERT, ARIZONA: Yes, sir. Glad to see you. Thanks for answering my question.
PINSKY: I hope I can. We got about a minute. Go ahead.
ROBERT: Can you determine for me which is the worst human behavior, mass murder by guns, mass killing by shipwreck, like the Concordia, or mass sexual abuse, such as the Sandusky case?
PINSKY: Robert, I`m not accustomed to sort of weighing the relative horror of humans at their worst. It`s all not good. Stephanie in Ohio -- Stephanie.
STEPHANIE, OHIO: Good evening, Dr. Drew. How are you?
PINSKY: Real good. What do you got for me?
STEPHANIE: My question is, I have fibromyalgia. And, what is the alternative when pain meds aren`t doing anything much --
PINSKY: Well, the pain meds actually can make things worse. It disrupts your sleeps, it disrupts your functioning, and it causes something called hyperalgesia, which means the pain gets intensified by the pain medicine.
The pain will never resolve without, in many cases, like getting off, exercise, structure, proper nutrition, socializing properly, creating a flourishing life, all these things, and sometimes, certain medication, anti-depressant category can be helpful as well, but it`s a very complicated topic, and fibromyalgia is probably a multiplicity of different disorders.
You have to make sure that you are carefully diagnosed. By the way, one quick caveat. In my opinion, I experience sleep disturbances are a major part of the problem. Get that evaluated and treated. The fibromyalgia gets whole better. Thanks for watching. And good luck to my (INAUDIBLE) who`s leaving us. Nancy Grace starts right now.