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Accident or Murder?; Is Movie Theater Responsible
Aired July 31, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: That`s right. Thank you, Rita. She will be joining us shortly.
We are continuing the HLN coverage of the case.
And tonight, there are many questions -- but one of the things I want to ask, for instance, amongst the many things I want to get into tonight is, why so many women drawn to this sort of dude? Why this guy? Four wives? I don`t understand that.
But we`re taking your calls. Reminder, it`s 855-373-7395.
But first here, let us get up to speed on the Peterson trial. Take a look.
DREW PETERSON: Please go home. Please leave me alone. Please don`t get involved --
REPORTER: After his fourth wife, Stacy Peterson, was reported missing.
PETERSON: Stacy called me.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: And?
PETERSON: She told me she found somebody else and she was leaving.
KING: Are you in love with Stacy?
PETERSON: Very much so.
KING: Think she might be alive?
PETERSON: I do.
REPORTER: He says he believes that he helps you dispose of your wife`s body. Can you at least respond to that?
KING: The third wife, what happened?
PETERSON: Don`t know. She drowned in the bathtub.
KING: Were you surprised when the body was exhumed and they changed the determination of death?
PETERSON: Very much surprised.
REPORTER: Prosecutors say that Peterson`s third wife, Kathleen Savio, was murdered and that he staged her death to look like an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no financial motive here at all. He would have been fine after the divorce.
REPORTER: Drew, are you looking forward to your day in court?
PINSKY: As I said, investigative reporter Rita Cosby staying with us.
Also joining me, criminal defense attorney, Mark Geragos.
Mark, first to you. Why do you think people are interested in this case?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I was joking with you when I got on here.
PINSKY: Were you really joking?
GERAGOS: If your last name is Peterson and something bad happens to your wife, stay away from prosecutors. It`s dangerous.
There is a fascination in America with white -- pretty white women who get murdered and cable news has an absolute kind of magnetic attraction to the story.
PINSKY: Yes, on this show discussed many times how there is underrepresentation of certain ethnic groups and things.
GERAGOS: I mean, you can find probably 20 of these stories in other ethnic communities on a monthly basis. I mean, people remark in the courthouse this year in Los Angeles. They understand it because you can go on the criminal courts building here downtown, you will find one of these tried every single day of the week.
PINSKY: Rita, what is it about this case? Why are we interested in this particular case?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, I think what`s so interesting, Dr. Drew, I mean, there`s so many different layers in this particular case, this guy has been married so many times. And let`s not forget the fact in this His fourth wife is still missing in this case, suddenly still leaves. His third wife is found dead in a dry bathtub. That`s pretty interesting.
And also, this guy is such a character, larger than life, too. I mean, he is sitting there sort of laughing at the cameras. He is talking to the press, sort of baiting people.
And the other thing, also when his wife was missing, this is the one not that he is on trial for, this is his fourth wife, he has married all these different women time and time again, sort of interesting pattern of women, but this woman who goes missing, he said, well, she kind of left, maybe she is going to show up dancing.
In fact, to sort of add to it, Dr. Drew, this wife who is missing, Stacy, is suddenly on the witness list and I just also had on the show before you, which I was hosting on "NANCY GRACE", I had on Steve Greenberg, the attorney for Drew Peterson. I said why is she on the witness list? She`s been missing now for many, many years? Well, maybe she will magically appear. Wouldn`t that be a Perry Mason moment?
So, it`s sort of this just fascination of this case and this is definitely an interesting man and an interesting case, I think, also forensically.
PINSKY: Well, from outside courthouse, funny would you bring that up, Drew Peterson`s attorney, Steven A. Greenberg joins us well.
Come on, Steven, you sent a subpoena out to a woman who is missing. You really don`t expect her to show up, do you?
STEVEN A. GREENBERG, ON PETERSON DEFENSE TEAM: I don`t think we subpoenaed her.
You know, in Illinois, frankly, you have to put people on the witness list or you can`t call them. So, everyone is included. The state has over 800 people on their witness list.
But no, realistically, I don`t expect her to appear at this trial.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
GREENBERG: I like her to. I certainly think everyone`s perception of Drew would change if she showed up.
GERAGOS: Right. If she walks through the door, game over.
But there`s also some tactical and evidentiary reasons to put her name on the witness list. So, somebody say he is gaming it. No, I don`t think so at all. I think that`s exactly what they have to do.
And also today, Steve can -- probably fill you in, they objected during the opening statement by the prosecution. A very significant ruling by the judge, I think, in the opening statement.
PINSKY: Tell us about that, Steven.
GREENBERG: Well, there were a number of significant rulings. What happened today was I think the state tried to sneak in some evidence. What they are trying to do is make everyone hate Drew Peterson, think he is a bad guy and convict him because they hate him. They think he is a bad guy.
We want to stick to what they have, what physical evidence do they have, what eyewitness do they have, and what legitimate circumstantial evidence do they have? I think the judge is doing a great job of limiting the prosecution to real evidence, stuff that should be heard in a courtroom, and not what you would hear on Headline News or some other show.
PINSKY: How dare Headline News.
But, Mark, before we went to Steven, you said --
GERAGOS: The trial`s different.
PINSKY: We understand that. We absolutely understand that. But you said guys that murder their wives.
PINSKY: You said this guy murdered his wife?
GERAGOS: No, they, first of all, have to establish that there was a murder.
PINSKY: At all?
GERAGOS: At all. I mean, that is their biggest hurdle with this case.
PINSKY: Do you think this is a highly defensible case?
GERAGOS: This is a totally defensible case. I mean, the idea that they classified this as an accident or not as a murder -- and Steve can correct me if I am wrong -- then they exhume the body because there`s this kind of media frenzy and then decide to reclassify it in response to the media frenzy? They really have no forensic evidence in this case.
And today, the one -- thing I was referring to with Steve was this idea of a hitman and they had referred to that, that he had tried to hire a hitman, the judge admonished them, I believe excluded that and said, no more, don`t go there.
PINSKY: Speaking of spurious stuff out in the community, Steve, I understand a producer of mine told me on your Facebook, you said that you thought this man, Drew, was being framed?
GREENBERG: Well, I put we were starting his trial and make sure he didn`t get framed for an accident, because this is an accident. The physical evidence shows it`s an accident. The real evidence shows it`s an accident.
And it`s exactly as Mark said. For some reason, they decided in 2007 to change the classification, it doesn`t change the fact they have no evidence that he was at the house that weekend and no evidence that he did it. They don`t have any evidence that it was anything other than an accident. I feel like a broken record.
GERAGOS: What`s so frustrating about this -- I have defended at least 10 of these cases in ten years there is this new phenomena -- unfortunately, it works in some cases. There`s a new phenomena, when they don`t have any evidence, when the evidence actually suggests that it wasn`t the person, or that it wasn`t even the crime, like in this case, they just default to what I call the character assassination block.
Make sure that you bring in every tawdry, titillating, irrelevant piece of character assassination so the jury will hate the defendant and then hopefully overlook there`s evidence and then try and convict.
PINSKY: But isn`t that what the judge is trying to control again?
GERAGOS: The judge so far is a man among men in terms of the rulings that he`s been making.
PINSKY: Let`s take a quick call. I got Sheila in California.
Sheila, you have a question or comment?
SHEILA, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Yes, I just want to say that he`s -- for me, I was married to someone very similar to him for about 16 years. Luckily, I got away. He seems to me to be a sociopath and that`s why a lot of women are attracted to men like that, they are charming and they are very, very dangerous.
PINSKY: So, Rita, you are the woman on our panel here. What is it about women that go for these guys -- certainly they are charming -- but they may not be -- may not have a great track record? Why don`t women at least look at that?
COSBY: Well, I`m not going to necessarily speak for all women. But what I will say, Dr. Drew, is that in this case, there definitely seems to be a pattern. Here is this guy. And what`s interesting also in this case is these women are dating him while he is married, while he has kids.
So, in defense of Drew Peterson, you always have to wonder a little bit about the women, why are they attracted to this guy when he is married, he is having a relationship.
The other thing -- I do want to say on the other side, you have got two great defense attorneys there you have got Mark and Steve Greenberg. But what did bring this case up, Dr. Drew, it wasn`t just sort of happenstance and media pressure. What did happen, there was a lot of attention, suddenly his fourth wife goes missing, and then medical experts came in and said, wait, wait, wait, let`s take a look at this exhume the body.
There was some -- a lot of feeling that possibly it was not looked at carefully at the time. Drew Peterson`s a cop. Maybe they missed some things and then some of these medical experts came back.
Of course, it`s for dispute which medical expert is correct. I think it`s going to be a battle of the medical experts quite a bit in this case. Do you believe the first one? Do you believe the second? Do you believe the third one?
But there were medical experts who came back and said, wait a minute, some of these things are consistent more with a homicide than somebody slipping in the bathtub.
PINSKY: I just think that the Geragoses of the world would take that apart, saying that a fresh examination as opposed to something that`s been exhumed -- boy.
GERAGOS: Look, anybody, you tell me, you`re a scientist, right?
GERAGOS: You`re a scientist. You`re going to tell me that you`re going to believe somebody who is taking a look at this through the prism of several years later, knowing the fourth wife`s gone missing and now look at it that way and that that`s better look at it than the person who is on the ground in real time looking at it? Scientifically, I don`t think that holds up.
PINSKY: OK. I`m taking more calls, 855-373-7395.
Plus, we are going to hear from a father of one of the wives, almost wives who said he was thrilled when his daughter dumped Drew Peterson. Be interesting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETERSON: Stacy loves male attention. She could be --
KING: Ran off with a guy?
PETERSON: Ran off with a guy and she could be dancing somewhere. I don`t know.
KING: And let you go through this?
PETERSON: If she wanted to get away, do you ever really know anybody? I was being questioned by the police. I was scared to death.
And policemen, any policemen will tell that you police deal with stress and despair with humor. They laugh, they make jokes, they are trained not to show their emotions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, I agree that people use backstage humor -- backstage -- to deal with stress with their peers. They don`t do it in front of cameras. I`m just saying.
After Drew Peterson`s wife went missing, he said he was engaged to 24-year-old Christina Raines, but they broke up.
Christina`s father, Ernest, joins us by phone.
Ernest, I was anxious to talk to you because it was reported to me that you were, quote, "jumping for joy" when your daughter broke up with Drew Peterson.
So, I`m just wondering what you saw in this guy. Earnest?
ERNEST RAINES, DAUGHTER WAS ENGAGED TO DREW PETERSON (via telephone): He is a devil in disguise.
PINSKY: Can you give me some evidence? What did you see? What did he do? How did it make you feel?
What -- help us understand what you felt, because you were around this guy and Mark Geragos and I were sitting here thinking what would we do if our daughter came home with this guy?
GERAGOS: You are not kidding. I don`t blame you. I mean, if my daughter brought home this guy, I would not be enthused and I probably would -- I said to Drew, break every parental rule.
PINSKY: And that`s -- without contemplating he was a murder, just the kind of guy he is.
So, what kind of guy is he, Ernest? Help us understand?
RAINES: Well, he is -- he is (INAUDIBLE), you know? He can make himself look real good, you know, present himself real good. But on the other hand, there is a dark side on him where he is controlling. And I have seen that with my daughter. My daughter --
PINSKY: Can you give me a specific example? Give me one good example of how bad that got.
RAINES: Well, OK, here is a guy that has two shadows hanging over his head, OK? Not even clear. Then, go get a 24-year-old girl and start on her and move her in, with my grandkids, while he is got two others over his head. Not even worried about his wife, supposedly. Said, OK, move her in, let`s go next.
PINSKY: Did you ever confront him?
RAINES: Yes, I did.
PINSKY: Have any could sort of confrontation with him? Yes? What happened?
RAINES: When I came up here, detectives, I know a lot of him, told me that Drew`s trying to date your daughter. I said that`s not going to happen because I understand.
I turned my car around. I went back to his house, knocked on door. He opened the door, he said, hey, come on in. Have a beer.
I go, I want no beer. I`m going to ask you something. I want it straight out. Are you trying to date my daughter or marry her?
He said, no, I wouldn`t do that to you.
I said, Drew, if I find out, I`m coming back here. I don`t care about your medals or anything else. I`ll be back here. You can trust that. I said don`t do that straighten up your own life first before you involve anybody else, especially my daughter and my grandkids. Don`t ruin their lives.
Basically, he did.
He lied. A month later, they were about (ph) my house, she already moved in.
PINSKY: Did you go back? Did you go back?
RAINES: No, not back now.
PINSKY: No, did you go back and have a final confrontation with him?
RAINES: Well, twice I did. I went back to him.
RAINES: And the police came up there. And I said, I want my daughter and her stuff out of there. The officer says, OK, Drew opened the garage door, walked back there and he come out and says tell f-ing Raines to get off my property.
So, I looked at the officer and said, can he do that? Yes, wait by your car, we`ll bring the stuff out. I said, fine. Brought it all out.
He looked at me and said, do you need to come back for anything? I go, if he has anything over there, he can have it, we`re not coming back. Whatever he`s got, he can keep. And we left.
PINSKY: Ernest, I`m going to interrupt, thank you for giving us -- painting us a picture for us.
Rita, I think it`s stories like this that keep this story sort of alive in everyone`s imagination. Would you agree?
COSBY: Yes, no question. And I think that this case, people will be fixated on it. He is a character that is larger than life -- married, many different girl friends and lots of twists and turns.
And there are also, by the way, the other thing, Dr. Drew, I think is important, what also is important, I think a person that`s going to be key is a pastor, who`s Stacy, his missing wife, remember, she is still missing, even though she is on this witness list. But there`s a pastor that apparently spoke with Stacy and Stacy said some very interesting things about wondering what happened that night, believing, getting information again. It`s hearsay -- but getting information from Drew that he had something to do with his wife`s death.
This is the one he is on trial for. There`s a lot of hearsay but there`s some very interesting nuggets here. I don`t know which way it`s going to go.
PINSKY: Thank you, Ernest.
And Mark and Rita will stay with me.
Mark, do you have the same feeling I have right now, like as a father, I feel -- do you feel aligned with Ernest?
GERAGOS: You understand what Ernest is doing. You`re a father obviously.
PINSKY: You feel deeply aligned with that guy. I feel like I want to go lock elbows him.
GERAGOS: But as a lawyer who practices criminal law, you can`t be swayed by that. That can`t come in to a courtroom because that`s not evidence.
PINSKY: OK, dad. All right, dad. All right, dad. We`ll see, dad.
More questions about the Drew Peterson case, 855-373-7395. Don`t go away. We`ll be back.
PINSKY: I`m back with Mark Geragos, Rita Cosby and Drew Peterson`s attorney Steven Greenberg and, of course, some calls.
But before we go to calls, I want to talk to Steven.
Steven, explain something. There`s one thing I`m curious about.
She dies in a bathtub of a head injury. It`s deemed an accident. She is found in a bathtub with no water, but it`s called a drowning. Help me understand all that.
GREENBERG: All right. Well, let`s go through it. First of all, she died of drowning. The bathtub had water in it, no dispute to that fact. It took eight hours according to some testing they did for the water to drain out of the tub. She wasn`t found until some time after the water had drained doubt of the tub.
There`s some dispute as to when her head was injured. If`s our position her head was injured when she slipped and fell in the tub. Prosecution, at least one of the prosecution experts is going to say she received the head injury and then was somehow place into the tub.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s take a call. Cheryl in Oregon -- Cheryl. Or Sherly, I guess it would be? Sherly?
SHERLY, CALLER FROM OREGON: Oh, yes, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.
SHERLY: Thank you for taking my call.
I just want to let you know that I was married to a Los Angeles policeman for seven years. And he punched me, he kicked me, he broke my bones, he downgraded me in every way, and I finally got away from him. But I just want you to remember the statement: never cop out. And police will not cop out on each other.
Many times I called the police department because of abuse. And I see your attorney there shaking his head. Many times I called the police department on abuse and they would not do anything. Never cop out.
I actually believe that this Drew Peterson is just as insecure and psychopathic as my ex-husband.
PINSKY: Shirley, I`m going to stop you there I see Rita and Steven shaking their head.
Mark, you were not. So, I`m going to go to you.
GERAGOS: You know what`s fascinating, I don`t disagree with Sherly in terms of there is kind of a code of silence and the thin blue line and there is a camaraderie amongst cops, and you see that not just in these kinds of cases but in cases where there`s false confession, in cases where there`s planted evidence or beatings and things of that nature. So, people know that intuitively.
The interesting thing about Sherly and your previous caller, and I`ve had this experience, when you talk to people in these high-profile cases, and they kind of heart evidence through the media. And then I will sit and I will explain to them, I will say, no, that`s not the case. This is the evidence.
And then, they`ll say, well, what about this? No, that`s not the case, this was the evidence.
You will do that four or five times. And finally, they will always default to the same thing, which is: well, I don`t care what the evidence is I used to date a guy just like that and he could do the same thing.
PINSKY: And I think -- I`m hoping this conversation that although you and I agree, if our daughters brought this guy home, we would not be happy --
GERAGOS: No, absolutely you would not. But he is still entitled to a presumption of innocence, and if he is going to be convicted, first of all, make sure there was a crime. And then if he was going -- if there was a crime, then is he the guy who did it?
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Seven. Thank you, Rita.
GREENBERG: I need Mark on my jury.
PINSKY: Next up, the mother of a Colorado shooting victim may suit movie theater. I want to get your thoughts on this, 855-DRDREW5. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIRLEY WYGAL, DAUGHTER KILLED AT COLORADO SHOOTING: Rebecca was facing her shooter and that`s Rebecca. That`s Rebecca. If you`re going to shoot me, you`re going to look at me and do it.
(END VIDDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Rebecca Wingo, a 32-year-old mother of two was one of 12 killed in the Colorado massacre. Rebecca`s Mother, Shirley Wygal, now says she may sue the theater where her daughter died. Shirley and her son, Steven Hernandez, are with us tonight.
And guys, thank you for joining us. This whole thing is just so awful, and we say our prayers for all the victims and the families. And, I understand you moved to Colorado to be near Rebecca and her young daughters. How is everyone doing?
SHIRLEY WYGAL, DAUGHTER KILLED IN COLORADO SHOOTING: Well, the girls seem to be doing very well. They are experiencing as much normalcy as possible, and they are in counseling, and they`re acting as the psychologist said they should be. So, I think that they`re doing as well as can be expected.
PINSKY: How old are the girls?
WYGAL: Five and nine.
PINSKY: And they weren`t there that night, is that correct?
WYGAL: No. no.
PINSKY: Thank goodness.
WYGAL: Their parents were divorced, and it was daddy`s days to have the girls.
PINSKY: Now, tell me what you guys are thinking about the culpability of the theater, the potential that there might have been some, perhaps, negligence or what are you guys thinking about this?
STEVEN HERNANDEZ, SISTER KILLED IN COLORADO SHOOTING: Well, it wasn`t their home. That`s the main thing, whether they had obligations to have somebody on site with an armed weapon, that will be determined later, whether they already had previous obligations to have security card -- I don`t know.
It has been the fact, all rumors. So, there`s a lot of rumors right now. So, we can just speculate, but I`m sure somebody somewhere knows something that I don`t know.
PINSKY: Well, let me try to get some input from the viewers. This is Anthony in California. We`re anxious to hear what you all think about the theater and their responsibility. Anthony, go right ahead.
ANTHONY, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
ANTHONY: I was involved in a theater shooting in 1991. I was a theater manager and a guy stood up next to me and started firing into the crowd. And I can -- I mean, I can tell you, it was -- it was a traumatic experience, something I still, when I get stressed out, have nightmares over. I don`t know what more I could have done.
I mean, I don`t know what you can do as a theater owner to protect. I mean, people are going to gather. Where does it stop? Does it go to -- I mean, you know, malls, I mean, when more people gather than you expect. I don`t see how the theater can be culpable.
PINSKY: Anthony, let me ask something first. Where was this? I never heard of theater shootings. This is a new sort of notion to me. Where did this happen and you said he stood up next to you? Tell me more about this?
ANTHONY: Mine was in upland, California. It was July 12, 1991, during the opening of "Boyz n the Hood." We expected a certain level of sort of a different crowd, obviously. And that`s what showed up. I was prepared for it, but how prepared can you be? I couldn`t strip search people in the lobby.
I couldn`t, you know, I couldn`t strip search them when they were buying a ticket. And one of the guys had -- one gang member had an altercation or had some disagreement with some other gang member or alleged gang member and stood up and started firing his weapon.
PINSKY: Steven, to go to you, I mean, here we are, maybe it wasn`t the theater`s fault. Maybe it`s -- you know, I hate to start spreading responsibility everywhere, but maybe it`s the type of films that we`re watching or maybe certain types of films should have screening.
HERNANDEZ: That situation was a little different as, you know, every situation is unique, but at this theater, there has been a pre-course of violence. There`s been drive-by shootings multiple occasions. So, they`re aware of the area that they`re in.
And they should have been aware -- this is just coming from me, nobody else, but they should have been aware that Thursday night premiere, yes, probably should put some security out there. And if I do find out that they were supposed to have it and didn`t have it, good thing I got a lawyer, right, because I don`t know how to handle that, except for, you know, old-fashioned way.
PINSKY: Tell me a little more about your sister and your daughter. You said that she was facing the attacker and that that was consistent with the kind of person you knew her to be. Tell us about her.
WYGAL: Well, you know, Rebecca, you can -- if you knew that she came out of high school and went immediately into the Air Force at age 17 as a mandarin Chinese linguist, then you know that she`s not afraid to try anything. She mastered that. She went on to serve as a linguist for almost ten years. And when she came out of the air force, she was ready to tackle civilian life the same way.
She had a little trouble making the adjustment. And it doesn`t surprise me. She`d been with me and then wit the Air Force, someone mothering her always. And, she was getting it together. She had found a good job, a great church. She has a lot of great friends, and she was really happy with her life. And she was brave.
She wasn`t cowardly in any way. And so, when I learned the nature of her injuries and realized that she actually had taken a hit to the face, then I asked around if -- and asked did that mean she was facing him and the answer was yes. So, yes, she faced him. She didn`t turn and run. She didn`t try to get away.
HERNANDEZ: She was on the fourth row up. I mean, he came in. She was right there with him.
PINSKY: And Steven, you seem -- a reasonably, you`re very angry. Everyone deals with these sorts of situations -- clear that anger is something you`re experiencing. Does that cause you to want to find somebody to blame for this or to take responsibility for it or just to make sense of it?
HERNANDEZ: It causes me -- it causes me to want to get my stuff together for me and my family now. I got a lot on my plate now. So, to let him totally destroy my whole family through rage and anger issues, I`m not going to let that happen.
And that`s kind of the problem here, I believe, is that a lot of people have mental illnesses, and whether their doctor gives them the correct pills or if the doctor gives them pills and they just don`t want to take them, I mean, people need to handle their own mental problems and that`s what I`m going to try to do.
I`m going to do it for my family and try and get back to normal, as normal as it can be, it will never be the same.
PINSKY: I thank you for bringing that point up, because again, as I said last night is that while it may turn out this man had mental illness, I suspect we`re going to find out he did not follow treatment direction. And for anyone out there, listen, we`re not going to stigmatize people with mental illness.
That`s the last thing that this event should do. But, if you have issues and you`re refusing treatment, then it`s on you. Then it`s on you. Thank you, Shirley, Steven, we will remember your sister and daughter. I`m so sorry that this had happened to your family. And if anyone out there wants to help victims of the Aurora shootings, please go to GivingFirst.org.
Next, an outspoken attorney gives her views on potential lawsuits like this, and of course, we`re taking more of your calls. Please stay with us.
PINSKY: Welcome back. Now, first off, I want to thank again the family of the victim we just had a few moments ago. And, I gave a website that is good, but they wanted a specific website that would help the victims. It is AuroraHeroes.com. That is the one they are asking us to support and remember. And I want to be sure to do that.
Now, before I go to introduce my next guest, I want to read a Twitter to you guys. It`s just came in here, from Maureen O`Malley. And she says, "Are these two serious about suing the movie theater? Talking about taking advantage." So, you guys are ringing in from Twitter, not so supportive of the families looking for ways to -- I don`t know -- make sense of this or to spread some liability --
So, discussing this with me now is Areva Martin. She`s an attorney, obviously. And what is your take of this? Is it appropriate to be looking for liability at that theater? movie producers? where should we -- who`s responsible?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You know, Dr. Drew, whenever we have a tragedy like this, we have people who`ve been killed, someone is going to be looking for, you know, someone to take responsibility.
MARTIN: Their medical costs, their, you know, lost wages, you know, there`s future lost wages, there`s future lost care. All of these damages --
PINSKY: The misery also of these families -- yes.
MARTIN: Pain, suffering, emotional damage that these families have suffered.
MARTIN: So, we have wrongful death suits, and we have suits by the victims that have survived. So not surprising that we`re seeing families step forward and start to talk about civil lawsuits always in these cases. And the question is going to be, is there anyone who committed an intentional act? And of course, the answer to that is yes, the shooter obviously acted with intent.
But then, was there any negligence? Negligence on the part of the movie meter, on the part of the producers of the movie, and maybe even on the part of the university and the doctor that we have heard was providing treatment to the shooter.
PINSKY: So, the doctor may have some civil liabilities in addition to malpractice liabilities?
MARTIN: You may see malpractice, and we may see negligence action against the doctor if the doctor knew or had some sense about dangerous proclivities or, you know, the tendency for the shooter to be dangerous and didn`t take the necessary precautions.
PINSKY: And that`s a criminal issue?
MARTIN: Not necessarily. It can (ph) become a civil issue, because again, we`re looking at negligence. The question is, a duty? You know, did someone owe these victims a duty?
MARTIN: Was there a breach of that duty? And was it foreseeable? That`s going to be the big issue with the theater? What should the theater have done? What safety precautions could have been taken in light of what they knew? There are lots of rumors right now. We don`t know what the theater knew about the conditions of that, you know, environment. Were there prior shootings? Has there been any other violence in that neighborhood?
PINSKY: And somebody said yes, one -- somebody mentioned that just now last little segment, but how come no one points fingers or looks for civil liability in the ammunition producers or the gun producers?
MARTIN: They`re not off the hook. Good point. The gun providers. Who sold this guy 6,000 rounds of ammunition?
PINSKY: How about the gun manufacturers?
MARTIN: The gun manufacturer. What about warnings? So, you`re going to see lawsuits. And you know, and I know that --
PINSKY: I think everyone will feel good about the gun manufacturers. Someone tells me everyone likes that one. So --
MARTIN: And I`ve been looking online to social media sites, people are like, you know, how can the theater? And someone tweeted to me and said, well, what about Chuck E. Cheese (ph), you know? What about the restaurants and all the public places that (INAUDIBLE), but there is a question about safety. And I want to be safe when I go into the public.
PINSKY: Areva, we`re going to be walking through metal detectors every time we walk into a Chuck E. Cheese or a theater. That`s what`s going to happen -- these businesses to protect themselves.
PINSKY: Before you go on, I want to take a quick call from Michelle in Littleton, Colorado, which is where columbine is -- Michelle.
MICHELLE, LITTLETON, COLORADO: Hi, Dr. Drew. First of all, I love your show. And I`m actually living in Las Vegas now, but I was a sophomore when the columbine shootings happened and I was there. And, you know, I -- my first thing is is you can place the blame on anybody you want, but really, I mean, it comes down to the shooter.
You can never be prepared for this kind of thing. I don`t care if you have metal detector, somehow, some way, someone is going to find a way to get in. And you know, we`re always trying to look to blame the movies and to blame this and to blame that. When really, I mean, it`s like look -- look straight on at this.
This was a person who was sick and came in. I mean, he could have done this. He could have killed the security guard, whether he was armed or not. He could have done a lot more, and my whole thing is look at the responsible person for doing this, be angry at them.
And it`s like, you can blame the movie theater, you can blame everyone you want to, but bottom line (INAUDIBLE) person who needed help who didn`t, you know, I mean -- did something terrible.
PINSKY: And Michelle, are you still harboring anger against the columbine perpetrators?
MICHELLE: You know what, anger -- I wouldn`t say anger. I would say I have let that go. But, when I saw this happen and I watched this on TV, it brings back all those memories of sadness and pain. I still feel that. So, honestly, it also turned my life, and I know a lot of my friends from columbine, we all stay closely in touch.
And it kind of turned our lives to be thankful and to be grateful for the life that we live. And I feel like some of us survived for a reason. All of us survived for a reason. And it took a while to get over that, I will admit that. A few years of questioning why wasn`t it me? Why didn`t I get hurt?
But you know what, I now have a wonderful husband, an amazing daughter, and I know that, you know, if it was two kids who entered our school who wanted to be mean -- I mean, you could have put metal detectors in our school, and somehow, some way, they still could have gotten through.
You know, I could have sued the school or sued the principal -- I would never think of doing that because I know that these were two kids who had a mastermind plan in place. I mean --
PINSKY: They would have done something awful. Michelle, thank you for that perspective. I really do appreciate you calling in. And, it`s in a way -- I have so many mixed emotions from your call. I feel inspired and I`ve heard people who`ve been through horrible things say similar kind of things. And I`m angry and I`m in pain for those that are still struggling right now. Thank you, Michelle.
Now, I have to say -- maybe I don`t have to say that I was going to read something about -- OK, so, I`m just going to take a break. We`re going to continue this conversation. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: We are back. We`re going to get your calls in just a second. But Aretha, you wanted to comment about Michelle.
MARTIN: I just wanted to say, Michelle made an excellent point, but I don`t think we should rest a judgment and we should not be so harsh, you know, with respect to these victims of the shooting. They`ve suffered a lot.
MARTIN: And it`s naturally that they`re going to be looking to try to make some recovery for those losses. So, let`s just not be so judgmental about the victims.
PINSKY: Let`s encourage them to go after the gun manufacturers.
PINSKY: -- that allows the system to put some pressure on that piece.
MARTIN: And we have a system that says you can make a recovery if someone was negligent. So, that`s all these people were doing. All the families are trying to do is to see if there is a negligence cause of action that can be supported in a court of law.
PINSKY: All right. So, bottom line, to repeat what you`re saying, if somebody genuinely was negligent --
PINSKY: There should be --
MARTIN: There should be compensation for the family.
PINSKY: I`m goofing around about the guns. I don`t mean to -- you know, I don`t mean to do that.
MARTIN: Not a slam-dunk case, but if there`s negligence, compensation for the families for sure.
PINSKY: OK. Very quickly. Cindy in Wisconsin -- Cindy.
CINDY, WISCONSIN: Yes, Dr. Drew. Thank you for taking my call. I don`t really think that the theater should be held responsible. I do believe the world has become a very scary place. And I`m hoping that this will help other public places maybe think about their security and how they can change that to be a safer.
PINSKY: Cindy, Areva says yes. I say yes. From a practical standpoint, everyone`s going to be -- you know, we, as physicians, practice what`s called defensive medicine. Every business is going to be a defensive mode. They`re going to see every client --
MARTIN: We need to be safe, Dr. Drew, in public places, and if there`s something that this theater and theaters across this country can do to make us safer, why not?
PINSKY: Fair enough. Areva, thank you for joining us as always. What I did call you, outspoken --
MARTIN: Wonderfully sweet.
PINSKY: Wonderfully sweet, kind.
MARTIN: A passionate woman.
PINSKY: One of our favorite guests, and I`m going to be taking calls on whatever topic you guys like at 855-373-7395 when we get back.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s get right back to the phones. Kolleen in Colorado -- Kolleen.
KOLLEEN, COLORADO: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Kolleen.
KOLLEEN: My question is, we have baby monitors in our kid`s rooms and we`ve noticed that my three-and-a-half-year-old little girl seems to be basically like rubbing herself on her stuffed animals.
PINSKY: Right, right.
KOLLEEN: And I didn`t know if that is normal or not?
PINSKY: That is rather normal. I will tell you from particularly the young girls from about the age of three to six will do that as kind of a self-soothing mechanism, especially, in my experience, when there`s a lot of chaos in the home. Is there a lot of stuff going on in your home right now?
KOLLEEN: We just had a big move.
PINSKY: Yes. It might be that. I mean, if there`s a move, a divorce, if there`s conflict, all that kind of stuff tends to -- in my experience, you sort of see these kinds of behaviors emerge really all up the age of six. So, it`s not something I would -- in my experience I would worry about. Definitely consult with your pediatrician just to make sure it is nothing to keep an eye on, OK?
KOLLEEN: OK, thank you.
PINSKY: Well done, Kolleen. Thanks for calling.
I`ve got Lisa in Ohio -- Lisa.
LISA, OHIO: Hello, Dr. Drew.
LISA: My husband and I have had custody of our granddaughter since 2007.
PINSKY: How old is she?
LISA: She is almost 13.
LISA: Our daughter, whom we`ve had very strained relationship, is finally taking steps that she needs to regain custody.
PINSKY: OK. So, let me just -- interpret what I`m hearing. You`re daughter probably has addiction. Is that right?
PINSKY: That`s very unusual, because the moms usually don`t leave their kids behind unless there`s addiction. That`s when you usually see that. What is the deal with your daughter?
LISA: Well, the deal is that she just hasn`t been able to provide a stable home for her.
PINSKY: Boy, that sounds like a -- anyway, so what is she doing now to make it stable?
LISA: Well, now, she is engaged to a stable young man --
LISA: -- who is entering into country music, excuse me.
LISA: But she does have her right now, actually, through the entire summer.
LISA: But my question is that we`re hoping that she`ll actually be able to get her back within the next couple of years, but what steps can we take to start to repair this relationship now so that when that happens this is a smooth transition, some kind of a healthy relationship.
PINSKY: Your relationship with your daughter?
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
LISA: It`s very strained. Very --
PINSKY: Lisa, boy -- I mean, this is a very complicated question. And I don`t think something suitable to, you know, 20 seconds on a television program. You know, we need to examine where things got off the rail, what your daughter`s issues were, how bad it got between you, whether we should even be talking about it.
I mean, if things got violent, we maybe should be only doing it in a very carefully sort of observed circumstances, whether you have resources where you can have professional interventions to help you guys, whether your daughter is motivated to do this, all that you really need to evaluate. So, bottom line is get some professional help if you possibly can.
Now, I want to thank all of you for watching. Of course, I want to thank those of you who called. I will see you next time. Nancy Grace begins right now.