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Shooting in Wisconsin Temple Left Six People Dead
Aired August 6, 2012 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Shootings, chaos, bloodshed and terror. America has a long history of random violence, but it seems to be getting worse. Just yesterday, a deadly shooting rampage at a temple in Wisconsin. Are you afraid? Should you be?
That`s right. I want to get into that this evening. We are developing in the United States a culture of fear. The question is, is it appropriate?
Something I always say when talking about young people, adolescence and parenting, I`m frightened when parents say not my kid. Then I`m starting to wonder is not me as we think about these random events of violence. When you say "not me," I wonder if that is a wise thing or not.
Are these relatively rare events? Are they things that we are going to continue to see escalating in the future? Are we onto something new here? Where our country is going to be continually under the assault? Or are these random events that we can understand as simply failures of our system, somewhere, somehow?
And I will tell you what, this latest thing, I`m going to talk to Anderson Cooper in just a second but this latest thing is very different. I say as a clinician, from the Aurora, Colorado, shooting. This, I suspect is what I call a bad guy. He may have mental health liabilities, but he is a bad guy.
Joining me on location from Oak Creek, Wisconsin is the host of CNN`s "ac 360," of course, Anderson Cooper.
Anderson, here you are again, just a few weeks ago reported from the massacre in Colorado. What did you think when you were called out to Wisconsin? I mean, I don`t know what to think, frankly. What do you think?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, AC 360: Well, you know, obviously, it is sickening and I don`t like to compare one tragedy to another. But, you know, it seems like what we are learning about the shooter involved in this who was killed yesterday, you know, clearly seems to have white supremacist connections or neo-Nazi connections, was part of a so-called white power band a couple of years ago, viewed himself as something of a player in that world, though is a pretty small subculture in the United States.
He was killed at the scene. There have been some talk about possibly a person of interest, police have talked to that person. They have not ruled him out as anything more than a person of interest or ruled him in as anything more than a person of interest but they are still looking into him. The question, of course, is what connections did this shooter have to white supremacist groups? Was he a lone wolf? Was he connected to other people? Were other people involved? And they are still looking into that now.
PINSKY: And Anderson, when I see a guy like, you know, this the guy in Aurora, I mean, he was delusional. He didn`t know who he was, where he was, after he finished shooting, he sat in his car.
This guy looks like somebody, to me, that probably had some violence in his life early and then became aggressive and became a bad guy, even though he served in the military, bad guy, who had nothing but bad intent. And you see how he engages the police. He intended to kill police officer in addition.
Are people understanding that difference between what happened in Aurora and what happened to this guy? This, to me, is much scarier?
COOPER: Yes. I think people are understanding that. I don`t think you hear a lot of talk about sort of mental health issues involved in this guy, though as you said, there may have been some. I mean, he clearly had a set of believes. You know, authorities here called it a domestic act of terrorism. He had an agenda, beliefs.
Whether or not he actually knew who he was attacking, we don`t know at this point. We don`t know if he knew anything about the Sikh faith. We don`t know if he thought it was another religious group or what he thought. We don`t really know much about his motivation but clearly, his participation in white power music and, you know, white supremacist groups, southern property law center has been tracking this guy, you know, for more than ten years. They have a record of him going back, I think, to 2000, clearly, you know exit wasn`t just some emotional issue you he had some believes.
PINSKY: Right. And though this guy being tracked still has the capacity to buy assault weapons. Anybody talking about that?
COOPER: Well, yes. You know, the fact is he didn`t really have much of a police record. I think he wrote a bad check at one point. There were not acts of violence on his record. And so, he bought the handgun that he used in the attack. We now know, we just learned a short time ago, he bought at the end of July. He had to wait for 48-hour period because that`s what they have here in Wisconsin as they checked his background, but he more or less had a clean record. So, he was able to legally purchase the handgun.
PINSKY: And Anderson, I will take a couple of calls here, see what our viewers want to know about this.
Nicole in Pennsylvania, go right ahead.
NICOLE, CALLER, PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I was really bothered that some people plan to sue the Aurora movie theater for not providing sufficient authority -- I`m sorry, security. And now here we are several weeks later and another mass shooting leaving six people dead.
So my question is where do we drought line with holding staff men instead of the criminal liable for that action? And completely that some costs we just beyond their control?
PINSKY: Anderson, do you have a comment about that?
COOPER: You know, it is interesting. I think a lot of people feel that way are surprised to hear that people are suing the movie theater. You don`t hear people here talking about lawsuits against their religious establishment, certainly at this point you there, is just shock. But we will see what happens down the road.
But you know, I think this is the culture we live in and certainly understand, you know, her position on it. But I think it is a sign of the times.
PINSKY: Right. Bobbie in Oregon. Bobbie?
BOBBIE, CALLER, OREGON: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thank you for taking my call.
PINSKY: Sure thing.
BOBBIE: I`m not only frighten but what frightens me even more is that I feel numb in my heart I feel numb in my head, I feel sorry and sadness. But it doesn`t get my heart, and I feel guilty about that.
PINSKY: OK. Bobbie, you bring up a number of different points here. Emotional numbing is how we deal with things that are overwhelming. But Anderson, one thing I wonder though and Bobbie brings up an interesting point, are we going to become indifferent to these acts of violence as they become increasingly portrayed in our media? .
COOPER: I certainly hope not. I mean, I can tell you as a reporter who, you know, I see a lot of violence and for 20 years, have been going to wars and disasters and seen a lot of death and bodies. And that idea of being numb, I know the pull of it. I understand the pull of it. Because that is a natural inclination to kind of numb yourself. I believe you need to see each event with fresh eyes and you need to be horrified by it each time. And you can`t allow yourself to become numb to it because you are not doing the victims any justice by ignoring it or just writing it off or kind of comparing one to the other. Each thing we should be shocked by and horrified by and should disturb us and keep us up at night.
PINSKY: You know, I think Anderson, I agree with you wholeheartedly. And the fact, the way - the sort of the meaning of these particular senseless shootings that somebody different somehow is an object of our violence. We need to redouble our efforts to really pull together. I mean, who cares what people look like, who they -- you know, what language they speak. All Americans.
COOPER: You raise -- you make -- I spend earlier today at the home of Satwant Kaleka, who is the temple president, who was killed, according to his family, trying to stop this gunman, literally wrestling with the gunman, shot numerous times very close range and finally died of his wounds. And outside his house, there is an American flag and it is flying at half-staff, obviously. But that American flag was if you are in the by Mr. Kaleka, as soon as he was able to save up enough money and buy that house. That`s the first thing he did. And he did it both to protect his family because he didn`t want people, his neighborhood thinking they were some - how foreign. But he also did it because he wanted to show his pride in America. And his son said to me, he lived the American dream.
And I think it`s so easy to view people as other, but somehow, you know, and we have a long history of doing that, but we are at our best when we pull together and when we view our diversity as strength. I know is a cliche, but I really do believe that.
PINSKY: No, that is exactly right. And interesting you would bring that particular victim up. I actually is his sons, they are two brothers, they are up next, their father, as Anderson was saying, killed in yesterday`s shooting, struggling with the -- with the alleged shooter.
So, more with them and with Anderson Cooper after this quick break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANWARDEEP SINGH KALEKA, NEPHEW OF SHOOTING VICTIM: He basically fought to the very end and suffered gunshot wounds while trying to take down the gunman.
SIMRAN KALEKA, NIECE OF SHOOTING VICTIM: What do I say? Started off he was an amazing man. He left this world protecting the church, protecting the people and now we are trying to figure out who is going to protect our hearts from this pain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A major question is, what did we do wrong versus the mad man? Was the suspect is a guy who flip? Did he hate us for our appearance? Those are major questions. I mean, if those are random act of violence - I mean, there is no conciliation on any of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is another deadly mass shooting, seven people killed in the massacre, including the alleged lone gunman.
I`m back with CNN`s Anderson Cooper. A reminder that "ac 360" is 8:00 and 10:00, Anderson, is that correct? Be sure to tune into that.
And I imagine you will be covering this from the ground, you know, from right there at ground zero in Wisconsin. And I really -- first of all, I want to say thank you for sticking around tonight and joining us on this show. I really do appreciate your thoughts.
It`s kind of a perspective you now having been in Aurora and now being there that you have a perspective I don`t think many people have. And it sounds like, in spite of this, you`re staying pretty positive about the spirit of the people in these communities, is that what I`m seeing?
COOPER: You know, I was just -- I was really moved by being at Mr. Kaleka`s house earlier today and meeting his family. And there were dozens of members of the community who were there to pay their respects. And there was a real sense of community.
And you know, at the same time, you had people kind of standing outside checking the street to make sure who is driving down the street. You can just keep an eye out. And at that, that really pain me to see in this beautiful Oak Creek community, to see people kind of living in fear, looking over their shoulder for the first time and not really being sure what their neighbors are thinking you. And found out that really disturbing. And anytime you see people mourning and it`s a - we show up and you know, we try to tell their stories and we try to tell the story to people who want their stories told. But I felt very privileged to be in their house earlier today and get to know them and tell the story (INAUDIBLE).
PINSKY: And the irony too, is these poor folks who build their philosophy of pass -- being peaceful and loving are the people that have to feel paranoid about aggression and violence. We got to check ourselves. We got to think about this.
Now, joining me on the phone is Pardeep Kaleka and his father was killed in yesterday`s shooting.
Pardeep, your mother was also in the temple during the shooting there is a picture of your father there how is your mom doing?
PARDEEP KALEKA, FATHER KILLED IN WISCONSIN TEMPLE SHOOTING (via phone): My mom is doing well, as well as can be expected. She is at home right now we are actually across the street from the location that the incident happened.
PINSKY: And how is the community coming together? Anderson Cooper said he was, I believe he said, at your house today and was really moved by how people standing. And by the way, the courage he showed to this awful guy.
PARDEEP KALEKA: The community is coming together. I mean, incidents like this unfortunately, do bring communities together and it is tragic that it takes something like this for you to see certain people you haven`t seen in a very long time.
And I really appreciate Anderson Cooper coming out and seeing us, too and raising awareness. But what I wanted to mention is the five other victims of this, other than my dad, I want to give them a little bit of -- I don`t think anybody has talked to their families because maybe they don`t have a lot of family here.
PINSKY: OK. Is there anything you would like to say specifically about them?
PARDEEP KALEKA: Well, I just wanted to basically just recognize them; Prakash Singh, Paramijt Kaur, and Suveg Singh who was the eldest of the group. I just wanted to recognize them and their families and express my condolences out to them and let them know that we do have a Web site set up for donations that will go out straight to their families. I will not take any -- my family will not take any of the donations.
PINSKY: Do you want to give us that Web site?
PARDEEP KALEKA: Sure. It is www.werareSikhs.com.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s take a call here.
Renee is in Mississippi. Do you want to comment?
RENEE, CALLER, MISSISSIPPI: Hi, Dr. Drew.
RENEE: I was 17 and I went through a shooting, at a convenience store where we all hung out. And now I`m 43 years old. And looking back, it was tragic. He blocked us in, this guy. We were all seniors in high school, he blocked us in and the driver that was driving us thought he had none chucks.
PINSKY: Renee, I`m going to interrupt here. I will work out a little bit of time. But let me say, that one of the things we are trying to look at here is how we heal as a community. How do you find a road to healing after something so awful?
RENEE: OK. Let me say, like I said, I was senior in high school, after that happened, I did not do anything. So, the counselor pulled me in. My mom and dad was going through a divorce that time. My mother wasn`t around. So, the school called counselors in and the school helped me through it.
PINSKY: Right. So, --
RENEE: And they can`t get pass this.
PINSKY: That`s right.
So, Anderson. I imagine the community is providing a lot of resources for the victims. Are they utilizing these resources, you think?
COOPER: Well, I think that is one of the reasons that the Kaleka family has started this Web site, we areSikhs.com, just to try - because some of these families do not much money and the burials are going to be on Friday. And a lot of them don`t, you know, have other relatives around. So, I just checked out the Web site. I think they have raised $12,000 so far. I think - I think, you know, they are going to need more than that. I think they are going to be very appreciative if we give. Again, that is wearesikhs.com.
But I think. you know, tiny community and they are there for each other and we will continue to be in the weeks ahead.
PINSKY: Well, Anderson, thank you again for staying around and giving us that report from there. Again, I`m feeling that same sense of emotion that you have having been there and touched these families so I really appreciate your sharing that.
All right, next, so many mass shootings, the question we are raising is are we living in a culture of fear? I`m going to have a personal security expert on to tell you how to save yourself if random violence strikes and how serious are -- how bad is it? How bad is it? I want to hear from an expert. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Your grandfather, you don`t know where he is in the gurdwara, what was it like for you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Terrifying, shocking, because you move to the suburbs for a safer life. You would never think this would ever happen to your family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just thought it was the safest place maybe on earth. Apparently not. I just want people to know that they shouldn`t be mistaken by us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, that is one of the things I want to look at tonight is how we are going to deal with that, the next couple of segments, how the kids see this? How it rattles the sense of reality they are in? And how do we, as parents, help reassure them or what if we are more scared than the kids are? And fear, of course, grips many of us following another deadly shooting spree. And people are asking, is it even safe to leave my own home?
Kaj Larsen is a former Navy SEAL and former CNN correspondent.
Kaj, I appreciate you joining us tonight. Is it as bad as it appears when we watch TV? Are we less safe? Are there more problems? Should we be concerned?
KAJ LARSEN, FORMER CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Drew, we live in a country where there is over 270 million firearms available. So, the potential for these incidents obviously exist, potential for shootings. Some people described firearms, small arms as the true weapons of mass destruction. So we saw each other several weeks a ago for the Colorado shooting and discussed it, now seeing each other again for this tragic event.
I don`t want to stoke fear in people unnecessarily but this is absolutely the reality of living in the country with the most number of firearms in the world.
PINSKY: Two hundred and seventy million firearms? I had no idea. So, how do we prepare ourselves? How do we defend ourselves? What do you do?
LARSEN: Well, the first thing to realize is that you are not -- you`re very, very unlikely to be a victim of any of these attacks. So, by all means, people should not fall victim to terror. They should not fall victim to acts of domestic or international terrorism. They should continue to live their lives and not be afraid.
If, however, you find yourself caught in this situation, as we have said on the program, there are three things we should do, and this is straight out of the department of homeland security recommendations for an active shooter.
And the number one priority is to run or to find an egress route for the situation. The number two priority is to hide. And if you have to hide, and if you have to hide, you barricade yourself and you`re as quiet as possible, turn off cell phones. And then, the third thing that you can do in the most dire of circumstances is you have to fight. So run, hide and if you`re in very close proximity to the shooter, you may find that you have to fight.
PINSKY: And I asked you last night what about fainting death? Is that a strategy that people should adopt or no?
LARSEN: Most security experts recommend that you don`t feign death. If -- most gun battles, Drew, occur within seven feet of each other.
LARSEN: So, if the shooter is actually in that close of proximity to the victim, the odds are very well that if you`re fainting death that he will be able to shoot you. Everybody has to take context and the dynamic nature of a situation to count and make a rapid decision. But my personal feeling is not to play possum.
PINSKY: OK. More with Kaj and your calls when we come back.
PINSKY: Good evening and welcome back. We are taking your calls, 855-373-7395.
And listen, all day long, we are hearing about violence. Last week, Aurora, now Wisconsin. We are trying to make sense of this. I hope by the end of tonight, you will understand this a little more deeply and maybe take away some information you can use.
One of the things we heard in that last segment was from Kaj Larsen, a former Navy SEAL, quoting the department of homeland security that if we are even in a situation like that we should run, number one, find an egress, number two, hide or barricade ourselves, or number three if we are dire circumstance and have access to neither, to fight.
Police say it was an army veteran, lone shooter in this rampage in Wisconsin. He was in a temple and left seven dead, including the gunman. There he is.
As I said, I`m back can Kaj Larsen. HE is a former CNN correspondent and former Navy SEAL.
Kaj, in terms of survival, the fact that this guy was an army veteran with the weapon, did that make it that much more deadly?
LARSEN: It potentially did. Not a lot of details, Drew, have emerged about his service record and what this individual, the alleged shooter, did during his time in the army. So, we can`t know for sure what kind of training he had. What we do know is that we can`t let his actions cast a pale light upon the great work that veterans have done for this nation.
Today is actually the one-year anniversary of 17 of my SEAL colleagues who were killed in Afghanistan fighting for their country. So, my heart grieves for the families of my 17 colleagues who were killed in the helicopter crash, and my heart grieves for the family of the Sikh community members who more than 300,000 Sikhs living (ph) this country, one degree of separation almost all have been touched by this tragedy in some terrible way.
PINSKY: Gosh! Thank you. Thank you for saying that. That`s a well said. Let`s take a quick call. Stacy in California -- Stacy.
STACY, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thanks for taking my call.
PINSKY: You bet.
STACY: I`ve worked in law enforcement in the university system, and I just wanted to say that people can look at any college pretty much, and they have active shooter videos and they give you information that don`t just apply to the university system but can apply to any corporation or anywhere you might find yourself in that circumstance as well as there are on YouTube these same videos.
PINSKY: So, I want to make sure I`m hearing you that these are videos on how to handle an active shooter?
STACY: Right. As a victim, what do you do?
PINSKY: And is there a log-in or a title we should be looking for on YouTube?
STACY: You could do active shooter, a lot of them -- even if you go to the university, any of the UCs, any of the UC --
PINSKY: University of California? OK.
STACY: University of California.
PINSKY: Stacy, thank you for that. I can`t vouch for them specifically nor can HLN. We`ve not yet evaluated them, but any tips like that, I think are a great idea. Kaj, do you agree with that?
LARSEN: I do agree that people can access the full complement of resources. There is a viral video out of Houston that`s what to do in an active shooter defense that`s gotten lot of play on the internet, I believe, over 250,000 hits. The thing to remember is you should take all of that advice and you should break it down into simple, tangible actions that you can take.
As we said on the program last time we were discussing Aurora, I think one of the best things you can do is get low and hit the floor and look for an egress route, a very simple action.
And I think you can mine all of the information out there and do your best, but at the same time, you have to remember that these are very difficult, very dynamic situations and a place like a theater or a church or a house of worship, there might actually be nothing you can do, unfortunately.
PINSKY: Right. And last time we spoke, you said, don`t panic. And I thought, wow! That`s easy for a navy SEAL to say, but for the rest of us, we`re going to panic. But you also said because of in an extremely anxiety provoking situation, we lose our ability for fine motor coordination, so something like dialing a telephone is next to impossible.
LARSEN: Absolutely. In the SEAL teams, we discuss that. We teach gross motor movements, because with all of that adrenaline flowing, all the fight or flight biological response of your body, it`s very difficult to do these dexterous required movements, i.e., dialing a telephone. So, what I recommend again is look for an egress route, stay low.
If you have to hide, hide. And if you can get your heart rate to slow down if you can get some of those motor skills back, then start to think about secondary and tertiary options or things that might be of slight benefit. Small example if you`re hiding in a closet that you barricaded.
You might want to turn off the cell phone so that it doesn`t ring. You don`t want anything to reveal your location if you`re at the second priority situation.
PINSKY: Karen in California -- Karen.
KAREN, CALIFORNIA: Yes, hi. I`m wondering how to handle a situation if I find myself in traffic and gunfire is going off.
PINSKY: In traffic? I imagine, Kaj, you would say -- first of all, I guess you can`t really get out of your vehicle but you stay low in the vehicle, right?
LARSEN: My primary recommendation would be absolutely stay low in your vehicle. Remember the internal engineering of your car, that your greatest barricade that you have is the engine block. So, if possible, position the engine block between with you and the active shooter.
And, again, look for an egress route. In a car, you have the advantage of mobility, so use that tactical advantage and try and get out of there.
PINSKY: Get out of there. That`s the basic -- that`s the number one piece of advice. Kaj, thank you so much.
Up next, now, we`re going to discuss how to talk to your kids when there`s so much scary news out there, and that especially when you`re scared. How do you deal with your own anxiety when you`re talking to your kids about what seems to be a scary world they`re seeing on television all the time. Call us, the number is 855-373-7395. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When things like this happen, it just -- it send chills down your spine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We are still trying to make sense of this senseless violence, and I`m asking, have we been hijacked by fear? These names are familiar to all of us, Columbine, Aurora, Virginia Tech, and now, a temple in Wisconsin. And a lot of you out there are becoming more and more afraid of random violence.
So, how do we deal with fear, and more importantly, how do we talk to our kids about it? They`re feeling this, too. Joining me, Lisa Boesky, clinical psychologist and the author of "When To Worry: How To Tell If Your Teen Needs Help and What To Do About It."
So, Lisa, kids are being inundated with this stuff, but parents are getting anxious, too. How do they manage those two problems? Kids` anxiety and their anxiety?
LISA BOESKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s difficult. I mean, you kind of have to be like a flight attendant. When you`re on an airplane and I know when I`m on an airplane and there`s turbulence, I look to those flight attendants, if they`re panicking, I`m going to panic. As long as they`re calm, I think, OK. Everything is OK. And so, parents have to really keep their fear in check.
PINSKY: You shouldn`t say I`m scared, too, honey?
BOESKY: Well, you --
PINSKY: It`s a tough one. I know.
BOESKY: It`s really tough one. It depends on the age of your child, but for the most part, you want to convey, you`re safe. Our family is safe. This is a horrible tragedy, and I think it`s OK to say, you know, there are bad people out there, most people are good people, but there are some bad people who do bad things.
Now, depending on the age of your child, this is where it gets confusing. People say age appropriate, it`s not talking them age appropriate, it`s developmentally appropriate. Some eight-year-olds are very mature, some 12-year-olds are very sensitive and immature and can`t handle it. So, you have to know your child and how far you can take it.
PINSKY: Have to be attuned, as we say.
PINSKY: And, how do we deal with, say, the young adolescent that`s somehow is fascinated with the violence? There`s always cool. A guy in Aurora booby trapped his house right on. What do we do with that kid?
BOESKY: Well, if it`s just that --
PINSKY: And then, I`d say -- I`ll interrupt you and say --
PINSKY: And then what are the signs that we should be worried about? You wrote a book about that --
PINSKY: Cue us in.
BOESKY: So, if it`s just that, you want to ask questions, but what was fascinating about it? Was the power? Was it that he was technical? What was exciting or interesting about it? And then you want to look for other worry signs, because instead of calling warning signs, I call them worry signs because when you have enough of them, you should be worried as a parent.
Now if that child is also terrorizing animals or really brutally mean to their siblings or they`re obsessed with violent videogames, and you`ve got warning signs or worry signs, that`s when you should seek out to a pediatrician or mental health professional like, should I evaluate my child?
But for a lot of kids, they might have one strange interest that is a little worrisome, but when you look to the rest of it, they`re doing OK.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s take a call. Heather in Kentucky -- Heather.
HEATHER, KENTUCKY: Here I am. Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Heather. Go right ahead.
HEATHER: Hey. I`m a mother, and also, I`d like to mention, a former veteran, Dr. Drew. I think that all of this violence that`s going on, we have to be aware of our surroundings. I, as a mother, my daughter, tell her to always be aware of your surroundings because there may be some situations that it maybe out of your control.
As one of your viewers had commented earlier, that there may not be anything you can do. But, I think that if we teach our children to be aware of their surroundings and, you know, teach them to respect people no matter, you know, where they`re from, what walks of life --
PINSKY: Heather, there`s a lot packed into what you said there. And Lisa and I are both shaking our heads. How many kids do you have?
HEATHER: Actually, I have one. I have one 11-year-old.
PINSKY: So, there`s two things, be aware of their surrounding and then be accepting of people of all races, creeds (ph), and beliefs.
BOESKY: And that`s what -- in this tragedy, the only good that can come out of it is if we use it as a teaching moment.
BOESKY: I think in the Colorado movie theater massacre, I think it brings up kind of mental health and to reach out to people who we see are acting a little strange or odd and then tell someone if you see something. In this one, it`s different.
In this one, it`s telling your kids about hate and violence towards people with different beliefs and to have a conversation with them about how do they feel about that and how wrong it is. And I don`t think 11 years old is too young to have that conversation, and this mom sounds like she`s already right on it.
PINSKY: I agree. Again, it`s so wrong that it`s one of the most pacifistic loving groups gets in the crosshairs.
PINSKY: Sharon in Colorado -- Sharon. Hi, Sharon. I think she`s there. Sharon, are you there? She doesn`t hear us for some reason. Next caller is Amista in Ohio.
AMISTA, OHIO: I`m here.
PINSKY: Go right ahead.
AMISTA: Yes. Amista. Hello.
PINSKY: Amista. I got you. What`s up?
AMISTA: OK. I`m also a mother. I have two small children.
AMISTA: The thing I`m wondering is how do we teach ourselves and how do we teach our children to understand that, you know, sometimes there are --
PINSKY: Oh, I lost her. Amista -- sometimes there are -- finish that. Sometimes, there are -- go ahead.
AMISTA: Sometimes, there are, you know, crimes where there isn`t always a reason. They`re just senseless. How do we teach ourselves and our kids that?
PINSKY: Yes. What do we do with powerlessness and senseless? I mean, I think for me, I would imagine the first thing to tell to kids is they`re not responsible. Kids want to personalize everything, younger kids particularly.
BOESKY: Right. And I think that you don`t want to go too far with the randomness.
BOESKY: Because if you`re like it`s random, there`s nothing we can do, sometimes senseless things happen, well then, that means it could happen when they`re sleeping at night. It could happen at the dinner table.
PINSKY: And again, kids are grandiose and I use that in the best sense of the word.
BOESKY: It`s all about them (ph).
PINSKY: It`s going to happen to me, for sure.
BOESKY: So, that`s -- right. So, that`s why you want to put into context, and I think it`s really difficult. A lot of people two weeks ago were saying this is very rare.
BOESKY: Well, now, two things have happened. So, you still statistically want to say it is very rare, our family is safe, it`s not happening to us.
PINSKY: We will protect you. Quick break, right back and calls, 855- DrDrew5. Don`t go away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. We got rifles, gas masks, right now, an open door going into the theater. OK. Hold that position. Hold your suspect.
I got seven down in theater nine! Seven down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Reminder that we are trying to make sense of all this. We`re trying to discuss what you tell your kids. Before we I go back to the calls of my guests, I got some Twitter. First of all, a lot of love for me and Anderson Cooper.
We appreciate that, but from @myonlyperspectiveDD (ph), he says, "Dr. Drew, we need to stop making excuses for hateful acts. A lot starts at home. Teach your kids tolerance, not hate."
That pretty well summarizes it up. So, we`ve had mass shootings in public places. Americans are on edge. Joining me now is criminal defense attorney and also a dad, Mark Eiglarsh. All right. Mark, I want you to put aside your defense attorney staff for a second and tell me what you tell your kids about the so-called bad guys out there.
Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney: We don`t refer to them as bad guys. We try to say that there are people who some, through no false of their own, suffer from mental illness. We talk about that. That some people are just sick. We also talked about fear, because I don`t want them to be afraid.
And we talk about that fear is an acronym, false evidence appearing real. So, that you`re not going to go to a movie theater and someone`s going to come in and shoot you up. That is a random act and hopefully will never, ever come close to occurring near you.
And the final thing is, when we kiss goodbye in the morning or we kiss hello after not seeing each other every day, we`re in the moment and we both, me and my children, we talk about how precious life is and how you never know how long you have and so to be in the moment and love everything about each other every minute.
PINSKY: I love that last statement, but I must tell you Mark, the last time somebody gave me an acronym for fear, it was Gary Busey. I`m just saying. I`m just saying. And, as far as bad guys go, this guy -- you know, I was hoping people understand. Yes, we have two mental health people sitting here.
I was helping people understand the guy in Aurora as sick, sick, sick. And I say (ph) it sounded, smelled, looked schizophrenia to me from the beginning. This guy is not that. This guy is -- I mean, bad things must have happened to him, but he`s a bad dude.
BOESKY: I work in jails and prisons, and there were definitely some people in there that have mental health disorders. They are sick and bad things that happened to them. There are also some evil, bad people in there. And I do use the term with my daughter, bad guys. I say, fortunately, there are way more good guys out there than the bad guys.
Look at the police, look at the president of this temple who really took control, and unfortunately, died because of this. I don`t think you should be talking to your young kids about that.
BOESKY: But to talk about that fortunately in this world, there`s so many good people, but there are the reality that there are some bad guys out there, and our job is to either stay away from them or to capture them. And luckily in this one, this time, the bad guy is dead, and he can never hurt anybody again.
PINSKY: Good point. Go to calls. Katherine in Nebraska -- Katherina, I guess it would be? Yes?
KATHERINA, NEBRASKA: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew. How are you doing?
PINSKY: Good, Katherina. Thank you.
KATHERINA: I have more like an idea and a comment. Me, personally, I wouldn`t allow my children to do more of, like, watching the news. Therefore, they can actually see the crimes and the terror and the violence that`s out there.
Then, they can see other families hurt and suffer, then they can see what criminals, what happens when they get caught, when they do things like this, when they go to jail because the news is a positive channel. I wouldn`t let them allow cartoons. Hey, look at "Family Guy," you know, it`s (INAUDIBLE).
And this society, they need to see this so if it happens to their friends, they would know how to help --
PINSKY: Katherina, Katherina, I`m going interrupt you and say I don`t know how Lisa and Mark feel about this, but I think there`s something to what you`re saying, but anyone else that`s contemplating that, exposing their kids, A, has to be a certain age, and B, the parent must actively digest the material with the kid.
BOESKY: And it also depends on the age. For some kids that are so young watching this violence on TV can be incredibly frightening, scary. They don`t understand it. They don`t know how to process it. So, I think you have to know what age your child is.
And I think they can watch it once and you talk about it, but to watch it endlessly and endlessly as they replay it on the media is actually more harmful than helpful.
EIGLARSH: Right. Yes, Drew, for me personally, I try to -- I mean, I break all these things down with you, but candidly, on my off time, it jeopardizes my serenity. I don`t want to hear about the ugliness and unhappiness in the world. I don`t think that`s healthy for my 10-year-old.
But when I do discuss it with him occasionally, he learns from it in doses, not every day. Let them watch the cartoons and the happy stuff, too.
PINSKY: All right. Lisa Boesky, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.
We have more calls on the culture of fear after this quick break. Again, the number, 855-373-7395, also 855-DrDrew5. Be right back.
PINSKY: We are back with Mark Eiglarsh, and although, I said farewell to Lisa Boesky, I asked her to stay, nonetheless. And of course, your calls. And I hope people are sort of getting something out of it tonight. The idea is to take these stories that you`ve been hearing about, perhaps, too much and try to make sense of it, look at our own fierce, apply it to parenting.
And Mark, I can`t resist asking you as a defense lawyer, if you were asked to defend a guy like this, would you?
EIGLARSH: Excellent question. Well, I have the option of passing because I`m in private practice, but if I did, the definition of winning is doing everything that I can to get the best possible outcome. It might mean avoiding death penalty. It might mean getting him, you know, a lesser sentence of some sort.
I probably would choose to pass, but I certainly respect those zealous advocates who choose to defend him because the system needs two sides.
PINSKY: Kristy in Kentucky -- Kristy.
KRISTY, KENTUCKY: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Kristy.
KRISTY: I just have a comment. I feel that treatment for hate crimes, you know, starts in the home, especially when your kids are at a very young age, and also, like, with these crimes. You know, I know this guy was shot and killed by a police officer, but like with the Trayvon Martin shootings and the Colorado shootings and everything like that --
KRISTY: I feel like if harsher punishment were given out, then our crime rate would decrease tremendously.
PINSKY: I`m going to ask Mark about that. Mark, the hate crime punishment is pretty severe. I wondered if people shouldn`t be held more accountable for not. We`ve talked about mental health, Lisa and I, for not following through on their treatment for mental health issues that ends up in a violent outcome if there were harsher sort of consequences that were rather than somebody saying, OK, they were crazy and they can`t stand crowd.
They were insane, whatever those issues are, but another element to it saying yes, you were unable to tell the difference between right and wrong, but you had a doctor telling you to do things you didn`t do it. Isn`t there something there that we can hold people accountable for?
EIGLARSH: I am all in favor of reflecting and seeing what could be done after a tragedy like this. The reality, however, most people don`t want to hear it is that as long as there`s the NRA, as long as there`s a Second Amendment, as long as there`s hunting, there will be guns.
As long as there`s guns, there is a free society in which we live. There are crimes, if people want to, they can commit. There`s nothing that you can do about it. Most people don`t want to hear that --
PINSKY: I don`t want to hear it.
EIGLARSH: The thing however is to come up --
PINSKY: I don`t want to hear it either. Lisa, you`re shaking your head vigorously. Hold on, Mark.
BOESKY: Well, that sounds great in theory. Harsher punishments if they didn`t take their medication. The reality is part of their mental illness is they don`t think they`re mentally ill.
PINSKY: Lack of insight.
BOESKY: And so -- yes. They don`t have insight into what`s wrong. So, can we really hold them accountable for something that they didn`t really -- even though a doctor was telling them, they have the delusion that the doctor is the devil, then they actually think they`re taking care of themselves.
PINSKY: Mark, 15 seconds.
EIGLARSH: Yes. It reminds me -- I read somewhere somebody was joking that I was thinking of killing myself, but then, I learned that it was against the law so I didn`t want to do it.
PINSKY: Right. Got it. Got it. But point taken.
All right. Lisa, thank you so much. Mark, of course, thank you as well. I hope you guys got something out of tonight`s show as we try to struggle making sense of these things. And of course, we appreciate the calls. Thank you, guys, for calls. I`ll see you next time. And Nancy Grace starts right now.