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NANCY GRACE
Drew Peterson Murder Trial; Savio`s Sister Testifies in Peterson Murder Trial
Aired August 6, 2012 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Twenty-three-year-old mom Stacy Peterson vanishes upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. Peterson finally charged in the 2004 drowning of wife number three, Kathleen Savio, Savio found covered in bruises, drowned to death in a bone-dry bathtub.
Bombshell tonight. As Peterson awaits trial, he`s on the prowl for women, asking one single mom of two`s measurements, begs for a photo of her in a bikini and says she can have all of wife number four`s clothes. I guess he knows she`s not coming back.
Former cop Peterson on trial for the murder of wife three, damning testimony from Kathleen Savio herself from beyond the grave. What does she reveal? Just before she`s found dead in the family bathtub, Savio predicts her own death, insisting Peterson would murder her and make it looks like an accident.
And how do bath towels prove murder one? Just hours after Savio`s dead, Peterson rushes to the home, scrubs the bathtub and cleans out Kathleen`s purse. Peterson in court cracking jokes in the last hours. But Peterson, to me, it looks like the joke`s on you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told me all the time, He`s going to kill me. It`s going to look like an accident. Take care of my kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her sister testified that Kathleen Savio came to her about six weeks before her death, and she says that Savio said Peterson told her he was going to kill her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never felt that it was an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, that`s a job you don`t want, digging up that corpse, been in the ground all this time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes. Thank God I just -- let her rest in peace, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, this thing`s getting out of hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, it`s out of hand, all right, in a court of law.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Former cop Drew Peterson, on trial finally for the murder of wife number three -- that`s three out of four -- damning testimony from Kathleen Savio herself, the murder victim, from beyond the grave. But what does she reveal in a court of law?
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Daniel Rozek, reporter with "The Chicago Sun-Times." Daniel, thanks for being with us.
The last witness on the stand, damning testimony against Peterson. How did Peterson react? And please describe that last witness for us.
DANIEL ROZEK, "CHICAGO SUN-TIMES" (via telephone): Anna Doman was a powerful witness for the state. She`s Kathleen Savio`s older sister. She described a meeting with her sister six weeks before Savio was found dead, in which she said her sister told her that Peterson had threatened to kill her and said he could make it look like an accident. She said her sister was very upset.
Peterson was calm through the testimony. He`s been calm through all of the trial while the jury`s present, very sober and serious and professional.
GRACE: You know, Daniel Rozek, we were just showing a clip of the Lifetime movie starring Rob Lowe about Peterson. And when -- in the movie, anyway, when Peterson was told that the body of Kathleen Savio was going to be dug up out of the cemetery, exhumed, he basically had no reaction whatsoever.
What`s the truth of what happened when he was told that Kathleen`s body was going to be dug up?
ROZEK: As I recall, he was not that upset. He voiced some concern about it. But he`s been a cop his whole life, and once things started happening with his fourth wife disappearing, I don`t think he was really surprised that there was going to be a move to exhume Savio`s body.
GRACE: Hey, Dana, pull up that video of when we thought Stacy`s body had been discovered, his fourth wife.
To you, Ellie Jostad. We were live that night. I remember it like it was yesterday. It was not long after Stacy Peterson went missing, all of her clothes left hanging in the closet. Everything was there. It was as if she just vanished into thin air.
Joining me right now from Chicago is Joel Brodsky. This is the lawyer for accused wife killer Drew Peterson, former cop. Joel Brodsky, is it true that you put Stacy Peterson on the witness list for trial?
JOEL BRODSKY, ATTORNEY FOR DREW PETERSON: Well, the witness list has to contain anybody that`s a potential witness. If you don`t have them on the list and later on they show up, you can`t call them. So there`s over - - we have a lot of people on our witness list. The state has over 250 people on their witness list, a lot of people that they maybe want to call but probably won`t. So witness lists include...
GRACE: Put Brodsky up, please!
BRODSKY: ... everybody.
GRACE: Brodsky, you`re just giving me a round-about about why you put Stacy Peterson on the witness list because just in case she happens to suddenly appear, you`re going to call her to testify? To what?
BRODSKY: Well, I mean, the whole thing -- this whole thing started when she disappeared. Everybody presumed that something untoward happened. If she just ran off, all these other presumptions about Drew Peterson kind of disappear into thin air? So...
GRACE: Really? Like all those cuts and bruises on Kathleen Savio`s body, they just disappear into thin air?
BRODSKY: Absolutely. Well, you know, looking at those -- the cuts and bruises -- for example, the one on the back of the head, that`s what she got when she fell in the bathtub. But the other matters, the other bruises that the state talks about are either older bruises -- we`ve had three pathologists -- three prominent pathologists examine...
GRACE: Oh, they were older bruises? But what, he beat her before he killed her, is that what you`re saying?
ROZEK: No because -- no because those bruises were taken in the regular course of living and working out and just, you know, rolling around and playing with your kids...
GRACE: Really?
BRODSKY: ... and doing everything else.
GRACE: Really? Because I don`t have any bruises on me, and I`ve got two 4-year-olds and I attempt to work out. I`m not covered in bruises. And I`m looking at...
BRODSKY: I`ll bet you -- I`ll bet you if there`s an examination, we`d find -- there are bruises. Everybody has some minor bruises.
GRACE: I`m looking right now, and she`s absolutely covered head to toe...
BRODSKY: Not at all.
GRACE: ... with bruises and lacerations. Now, how do you get...
BRODSKY: Not at all.
GRACE: ... lacerations from working out? I can`t wait to hear this.
BRODSKY: Well, there are no lacerations. The only laceration that`s on -- that`s on Kathy...
GRACE: Circular shaped...
BRODSKY: ... is the one on the back of the head.
GRACE: ... abrasion on her hand.
BRODSKY: Right.
GRACE: That would be a scrape.
BRODSKY: OK.
GRACE: That`s a laceration, abrasion. You`ve done a lot of...
BRODSKY: A scrape isn`t...
GRACE: ... autopsy reports. You know what abrasions are. You know what lacerations are.
BRODSKY: Abrasion`s not a laceration, it`s a cut. Abrasion is -- abrasion is rubbing, is a scrape on the skin. It`s not a -- it`s not a laceration.
GRACE: And what do you think a laceration is? What`s a laceration?
(CROSSTALK)
BRODSKY: A laceration -- cuts -- is a cut through the dermis. It`s...
GRACE: As opposed to...
BRODSKY: It`s all the way through.
GRACE: ... a cut on the skin? Let me see that one more time, please. I want to -- I want the viewers to see Kathleen Savio`s autopsy.
Now, there`s another one-inch blunt laceration on the back of the head. But what I`m interested in is how she would get red abrasion on the back of her elbow. And let`s see the front of the body, please. That`s what I really want to see, the front of Kathleen Savio`s body in the autopsy report.
How did she get bruises on her head from working out?
BRODSKY: What bruises on the head? The only bruise on her head was the one on the back of the head from the fall.
GRACE: Yes.
BRODSKY: Right.
GRACE: Oh, so that`s from the fall?
BRODSKY: She falls, hit her head. When she fell and hit her back of her head and was knocked unconscious, there was a one-and-a-half-inch gash in her scalp that goes all the way through down to the bone. And that`s a serious cut and that`s from a very serious head -- when she slipped and hit her head on the side of the tub.
GRACE: Oh, OK. Then if she slipped backwards and hit her head in the back in the bathtub, how did she get bruises on the front of her knees, Joel Brodsky?
BRODSKY: On her knees? Well, I mean, I don`t really want to get into this on TV, but...
GRACE: Well, what you were just getting into, the other one, you said the one on the back of her head...
BRODSKY: Well, I mean -- I mean, look...
GRACE: ... was because she fell...
BRODSKY: She was with her...
GRACE: ... and hit the back of her head.
BRODSKY: Her boyfriend spent Friday night at her house, left Saturday morning, and that night they were intimate. And you know, there are certain marks...
GRACE: On her knees?
BRODSKY: ... from -- yes.
GRACE: All right. I`m glad you explained that. So she`s totally bruised up you first said from working out. Now you say the gash on the back of the head was from falling in the tub. And you`re now saying that after much humming and hawing about not wanting to say it on television, you`re now blaming the other bruises on sex with her boyfriend.
All right, have you told that the jury yet, Brodsky?
BRODSKY: The ones on the knees...
GRACE: Yes.
BRODSKY: Well, we had -- the scientific evidence hasn`t started yet, but it was mentioned in the opening statement. Absolutely.
GRACE: Opening statement was what I was referring to. So did you tell them that in opening statement?
BRODSKY: Yes.
GRACE: Good to know. Go ahead. I want to hear the rest.
BRODSKY: Well, I mean, we also -- you know, we have three pathologists have examined all these pictures, all the reports, everything, and all concur. So it`s just not me saying this.
GRACE: They all say bruises on the knee as a result of rough sex, is that what you`re saying, all three pathologists, all three male pathologists?
BRODSKY: They all -- they all say it`s consistent with -- they all say that there are -- these bruises are -- what you`re talking about are certain scraping, abrasions on the knee and the shin. You`re also talking about certain red marks on her -- the back.
These things are either from normal life, or she had -- we`re going to bring in her dermatologist, who`s going to testify regarding skin problems that she had that account for some of these blotches. I mean, every single bruise, every single scrape, everything...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Joel, how does a skin problem...
BRODSKY: ... is all going to be accounted for.
GRACE: ... account for bruises?
BRODSKY: Well, there`s something on her -- there`s a mark, red mark on her buttocks, and that is something that she had gone to see a dermatologist about. So there`s a lot here of evidence, scientific evidence that`s going to be brought forth that`s clearly going to show that there was nothing in any of these marks that show that she was a victim of any type of violent attack.
GRACE: Joel? Joel? Joel, why did your client offer to sell or to give away Stacy`s clothes, including bras, underwear, bikinis -- I believe a mink was included -- to some mother of two? Why was he giving Stacy`s clothing away if he thought, as you said at the beginning of this show, she could just suddenly reappear and walk into the courtroom to testify for Drew Peterson, the man many people think murdered her?
So if she -- if you really believe that she`s just missing, that she took off on her own, then why was he trying to give away all of her clothes, including her underwear and bras?
BRODSKY: I don`t know. You`d have to ask him that. I`m really unaware if he had said that or if he had...
GRACE: Well, I`m telling you right now.
BRODSKY: I haven`t seen anything about that. And you`d have to ask him why. I have no idea.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Out to Julie in Nebraska. Hi, Julie. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. We love you here in Nebraska, love your show.
GRACE: Likewise. Go Cornhuskers!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anyway, my question is, do you think that there was a police cover-up?
GRACE: No, I really don`t. I think that within the police force, they may have been giving him more than the benefit of the doubt because they know him, they believe him, they trust him, as most people do with their co-workers.
But I don`t believe that there was any concerted effort to hide evidence, to get rid of evidence. And also, another thing on that, Julie in Nebraska. Look back over history. Whenever there`s a conspiracy, somebody cracks. You know, it`s really hard to keep two people quiet when it comes to murder.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. Former cop/husband Drew Peterson finally on trial for murder, but not of Stacy Peterson, his fourth wife who seemingly disappeared into thin air, leaving all of her belongings behind her. He`s on trial for the death of wife number three, Kathleen Savio, found dead in a bone-dry bathtub.
Joining me tonight, a special guest. Drew Peterson`s lawyer joining me out of Chicago. Joel Brodsky is here. Also there on the scene, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." She`s joining me there at the courthouse.
Jean, we`ve been going around and around with Brodsky about Kathleen Savio`s body. What did the jury see, Jean? What did the -- don`t show any photos of Kathleen Savio in death, Dana! Don`t put those up.
Jean, I`ll let you describe them instead, what the jury saw.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": You know, Nancy, I can`t tell you how many times on a great, big multi-media screen this photograph of Kathleen Savio in the bathtub, in the dry bathtub. She is curled up -- everybody says in a fetal position. I`m going to put it another way. She`s curled up like a snail in this circular bathtub.
So then you say to yourself, OK, somebody slipped and fell. It`s an amazing position to be in if you would slip and fall in a bathtub.
GRACE: You know what, Brodsky? She`s right. How do you go from slipping, knocking herself in the head, as you describe, on the back of your head...
BRODSKY: Right.
GRACE: ... to curling up like a snail, in the fetal position?
BRODSKY: Well, it`s the shape of the bathtub that caused the body after she drowned, after she deceased, in order to settle into that position.
And as I said, we`re going to have -- and I`m not a scientist, just a lawyer. But we`re going to have three scientists, three very prominent people -- one is actually an MD and Ph.D. who teaches pathology who`s going to explain everything to the jury, explain the marks, explain the abrasions, and talk about the position of the body and explain how it all happened...
GRACE: Well, I don`t understand...
BRODSKY: ... and that it, in fact, was an accident.
GRACE: ... what you`re saying about the bathtub. What is the shape of the bathtub, Jean Casarez?
BRODSKY: I`s an oval, by the way.
CASAREZ: It is circular. It is very unusual.
BRODSKY: It`s oval.
GRACE: It`s circular, oval.
GRACE: So why would that...
BRODSKY: It`s more oval.
GRACE: ... make her go in a fetal position?
BRODSKY: You`re asking me?
GRACE: Yes.
BRODSKY: If it wouldn`t -- well, it`s oval, more than circular. It`s certainly -- it`s more oval than circular. And then at the bottom of it, there are certain ridges that are built into it that would be made to -- like, where one could put their arms to relax, so to speak, if you were soaking in the tub.
And because of the position of the body, it just -- it`s going to cause one not to settle straight but to go over. But that`s something, once again, that the scientists will explain when they get in there...
GRACE: OK, so Joel...
BRODSKY: ... and explain it to the jury.
GRACE: ... let me ask you a question. Joel Brodsky is with us. He and Jean are both there at the courthouse, waiting for court to resume. Joel, let me get this straight. Did you tell -- have you already committed to the jury with this? Have you told the jury that she`s in a fetal position because of the shape of the bathtub? Because I don`t want to give you any pointers. Far be it from me to try to tell you, Joel Brodsky, how to try a case. But I believe -- I don`t think I`d say that if I were you!
BRODSKY: Well, it`s not me, it`s the scientists. It`s the scientists that are going to explain this, the three, you know, MD pathologists that we have that are going to come in and testify on the part of the defense. And they`re going to explain everything to the jury and how this occurred and how the fact -- the position the body is laying in is now indicative of anything other than...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are at the courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of former cop turned murder defendant Drew Peterson. He is not on trial with anything to do in the disappearance of his fourth wife, Stacy Peterson.
Let`s see that shot of him, Dana, where he has on his police outfit. It looks like maybe a Christmas photo.
He`s not on trial for her disappearance, although she was left -- all of her belongings were left hanging in her closet, in her closet drawers, everything gone. He`s actually on trial for the death, police say the homicide, of wife number three, Kathleen Savio.
Back to Jean Casarez, joining us there at the courthouse. Jean, the last witness on the stand extremely powerful. What happened?
CASAREZ: Well, this is the sister of Kathy Savio, and she testified. And this is the first hearsay statement allowed in. It`s six weeks before her sister was found dead in the bathtub, that she and her sister were alone. And her sister, Kathy Savio, said, You know, I think Drew`s going to kill me. He`s going to kill me. I`m not going to make it to the property hearing in April.
And he wants custody of the kids. You got to take care of the kids. If I`m found dead, take care of the kids. And I`ve got a briefcase. It`s going to be in my vehicle in a corner. It`s got all of my important papers. Take it. Get it if I`m found dead.
The jury heard that.
GRACE: Joel Brodsky, that`s pretty powerful evidence when her own sister says that she said, If I go missing, or I`m found dead, it was no accident. I think he`s going to murder me and set it up to look like an accident. That`s pretty powerful, Joel.
BRODSKY: Well, there`s no question about that, until -- until you go and look at the cross-examination and look at what she did. For example, she said that her sister made her pledge and repeat it over and over again that, I`ll take care of your kids, I`ll take care of your kids. I`ll make sure that everything`s OK with your kids.
And then what did she do? Nothing. She didn`t even send the kids for four years -- didn`t send them a birthday card, a Christmas present, not a phone call, nothing.
So that really leads me to believe, you know, that there`s some question with whether or not that was actually told to her and whether or not she`s -- she`s actually being truthful because if somebody -- in your own experience, if your sister had said that to you and then died, and you wouldn`t even contact your nieces and nephews?
GRACE: Says who, your client?
BRODSKY: No, common sense. Just put yourself in...
GRACE: No, no, no, no. Who says she didn`t contact them, your client?
BRODSKY: Oh, she admitted that on cross.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told me all the time, He`s going to kill me, it`s going to look like an accident. Take care of my kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her sister testified that Kathleen Savio came to her about six weeks before her death, and she says that Savio said Peterson told her he was going to kill her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Never felt that it was an accident. She always told us that -- whether it was a premonition or not, she always said that it would be an accident and to take care of her children, he was going to kill her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bruises and a gash on the back of her head, and the coroner called it a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First degree murder charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me and my family always felt that this was foul play.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many times she told family friends, anybody she could tell, I`m scared to death and then he`s going to kill me. It`s going to look like an accident and he`s going to get away with it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State police got a court order to exhume Kathleen and do at another autopsy on her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, that`s a job you don`t want, digging up that corpse, being in the ground all this time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I think they ought to just let her rest in peace, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This thing`s getting out of hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: You were seeing Lifetime`s movie "Untouchable" about Drew Peterson.
Joining me from the courthouse, Jean Casarez from "In Session." Also with us, Drew Peterson`s defense attorney, his long-time defense attorney, a trial lawyer, well-known in the Chicago area, and beyond, Joel Brodsky is with us.
Jean Casarez, just out of curiosity, has it come in yet that Drew Peterson was trying to give away Stacy Peterson`s clothes, detailing bra, underwear, I believe there was a mink in there, pocketbooks, shoes, the whole works? He`s trying to give away her clothes to some woman he was striking up a romance with?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": I don`t think it will come in. Because the judge has been very strong, this is not the trial of Stacy Peterson, it`s the trial of the third wife. Although the jurors saw a picture of Stacy Peterson last week, they were identifying Stacy Peterson in court.
GRACE: Jean, another question. Will evidence regarding Stacy Peterson`s disappearance come in at trial in the death, the murder trial regarding Kathleen Savio, wife number three?
CASAREZ: No. But for -- why didn`t you come forward for three years, it may come out, it wasn`t until Stacy went missing that I then came forward to law enforcement, so to explain why you waited so long, I think that`s a possibility.
GRACE: To Mr. Brodsky, Joel Brodsky, why is your client cracking jokes in the courtroom, and making light of the situation, the murder trial where the victim is his former wife, the mother of his children?
JOEL BRODSKY, ATTORNEY FOR ACCUSED KILLER DREW PETERSON: Well, he`s certainly not cracking any jokes while the jury is in there. He`s very business --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So the jury can`t see it.
BRODSKY: But as far as, you know, when he`s -- when he`s among -- when the jury`s not in, and we`re having a break, you know, I mean, surely there`s an interaction among him and his lawyers and the interns. It`s -- I mean, Drew has been in isolation for almost three years. He really hasn`t had any contact with anybody, other than --
GRACE: Really?
BRODSKY: -- people who bring him his food for three year. So he`s --
GRACE: She had access to mail or the Internet?
BRODSKY: Well, certainly not the Internet. I know he -- I`m sure he`s had access to mail, even though his mails monitored and read by the prison. But you know, he`s enjoying his interaction with people, something he hasn`t had for three years. And --
GRACE: OK. Sir, I hate to put you on cross-examination, but if you`d just answer the question I ask you, Mr. Brodsky.
BRODSKY: That`s OK.
GRACE: Out to you, Robyn Walensky, anchor/reporter with "The Blaze."
Isn`t it true, Robyn, he`s had quite a little bit of interaction while he`s been behind bars with other women? Tried to spark up romantic relationships with one woman after the next from behind bars?
ROBYN WALENSKY, ANCHOR/REPORTER, THE BLAZE: Yes, he`s really a creepy guy, a creepy cop, Nancy. He is a womanizer. You know, married four times, two out of the four wives are gone, one dead, one missing, still flirting, trying to have communications with other women.
You know, with all due respect to Mr. Brodsky, the attorney, he spins a sensational story. And if I was ever in trouble I would definitely hire him to represent me. But I have to tell you, you know what, Nancy? How are they going to explain away the 18 calls from 2002 to 2004, domestic violence calls between Kathleen and Mr. Peterson, the flirt?
And by the way, when they were married, it`s reported that he was having an affair already with what became wife number four, Stacy. So yes, he is indeed a womanizer.
GRACE: OK. I want to write down the dates you were describing, Robyn Walensky, anchor with "The Blaze." How many times was domestic violence called while he was married?
WALENSKY: Eighteen times, Nancy, 18 times. The day that Stacy went missing.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Brodsky, why are you -- why are you kicking around and saying no, no, no. It`s true, there were 18 calls.
WALENSKY: Eighteen -- absolutely, 18 -- yes, the cops were called. The Bolingbrook Police were called to that home. They had domestic issues between the two of them, threats, violence. You know, it reminds me, Nancy, of Nicole Brown Simpson. There`s a crescendo of violence that sometimes ends in murder. And in this case, it appears that that`s exactly what happened.
GRACE: OK. Robyn, which wife are we talking about, dare I ask?
WALENSKY: Kathleen -- we are talking about Kathleen. There were 18 calls to the Bolingbrook Police Department.
BRODSKY: Right. But they weren`t -- they weren`t violence calls. They weren`t domestic violence calls. The majority of the calls --
GRACE: What were they then?
BRODSKY: The majority of those calls were Kathy complaining that Drew was late bringing the children back from visitation. If the children were more than 10 minutes late, she`d call the police and make a report. So the majority of those calls had nothing to do with anything other than simple, you know, visitation being late --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What about the others? You said the majority. What about the others?
BRODSKY: Yes, there was -- there was only really one call that I can think of or maybe two. But one call in particular.
GRACE: You don`t seem convincing. Maybe one, maybe two.
BRODSKY: One or two. Two at most. Two at most but --
GRACE: Two?
BRODSKY: There was one in particular. And that regarded an alleged incident that took place on July 5th of 2002. But that wasn`t called in the until almost 14 days later. And --
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Kelly Saindon, Kirby Clements, Penny Douglass Furr.
Weigh in, Kelly.
KELLY SAINDON, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: You know, domestic abuse is a history in this case, I believe that he did it. I think the prosecution has a rocky start, and that they need to get back on track in order to convict.
GRACE: Penny?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, a domestic violence call, many people do those intentionally because they`re setting up a divorce and they do it to get a leg up in the divorce. My interest is after the call and after a hearing, was a restraining order issued? That means that it is based on some type of evidence. And it could be so clear --
GRACE: Kirby Clements, I want to hear your response to Penny`s suggestion that a lot of people, a lot of women call police just so they can prepare a divorce case.
Kirby, please do not wear your defense hat. All right? Remember the days when you prosecuted? Tell the truth, domestic violence --
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I`m going to tell the truth.
GRACE: -- abuse is nothing to sneeze at, it`s nothing to twist around to your benefit.
CLEMENTS: No, you know, it is a horrible thing, but people do twist it around for their benefit. You have a lot of women, they call and make up charges of domestic abuse that are unsubstantiated --
GRACE: No, Kirby, I`m talking about you.
CLEMENTS: No --
GRACE: Are you trying to say with a straight face that majority of women that called domestic hotlines or call police when they`re being beaten?
CLEMENTS: No, n, if --
GRACE: Or to set themselves up for a divorce?
CLEMENTS: If I said -- if I said a majority, I misspoke. What doesn`t happen, it absolutely does. As a prosecutor I uncovered it. I`ve confronted women who admitted to me that they made the call because they were mad at the guy, because he was having an affair. So I`m trying to tell you that does happen. Not the majority of those cases. But it does happen and that`s fact.
GRACE: Wendy Walsh, Wendy Walsh, that is why Kathleen Savio called police.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST AND CO-HOST OF "THE DOCTORS": Absolutely not. It appears that she was in that awful cycle of domestic violence and trapped and unable to get out. And as you know, Nancy, because we all covered the Nicole Brown Simpson murder trial, that most dangerous time for these women, these victims of domestic violence, is during the divorce.
It`s when they`re actually getting free that these guys often get really rageful and say, wow, you know, I`m going to -- I am losing control so I`m going to find a way to take control of this situation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: The case against Drew Peterson started out with a bang.
DREW PETERSON, FORMER COP: Please don`t get involved in my world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t everybody hold me down again.
CASAREZ: Marion Tom Pontarelli testified that they followed Drew Peterson`s lead when he said he needed to call a locksmith because he hasn`t heard from his ex-wife Kathy Savio.
PETERSON: I got neighbors go into the house and they found her dead in the bathtub.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She was naked and the bathtub was dry.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Drew, you looking forward to your day in court?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Savio`s death an accidental drowning. Case closed.
CASAREZ: Stacy Peterson, reported missing, that is until the disappearance of yet another wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How it became homicide I don`t know, it`s a freaking accident.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You know, you say the media is bothering you, but don`t you think we`re helping in the search for Stacy?
PETERSON: We`re going out and search. You know, you`ve been through my house a few times so it`s like, it`s not here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are back and taking your calls. Drew Peterson, former cop now on trial. Finally the body of his third wife exhumed, dug up from the cemetery. Later homicide charges were filed. Still, no word on missing wife number four, Stacy Peterson. Her presence looming large in that courtroom although the jury may never hear about Stacy Peterson`s disappearance.
We are taking your calls. With us tonight, attorney for Drew Peterson, Joel Brodsky.
Out to the lines, Susan in Missouri. Hi, Susan, what`s your questions?
SUSAN, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. First I would like to say, wow, Drew Peterson is a manipulator and arrogant and he`s got a twisted manipulating lawyers working for him.
I also want to say this, the judge in this trial has a vendetta against the prosecutors. So if it was the defense against the judge, the judge (INAUDIBLE), they could appeal this. The prosecutor has no appeal if this judge is biased, which I -- I believe and has been mentioned several times. I want to know --
GRACE: Why do you believe the judge is biased in favor of the defense, Susan?
SUSAN: Why? Because I know they ran against each other in a -- for the seat and the prosecutor won and I believe that he is showing that in the way that he handled the witnesses, yelling at the sister, mistreating her the way he has. He apparently has a bias that he`s not allowing the information. If this guy killed -- if he hired --
GRACE: I`m losing Susan, but I get the gist of her question.
Let`s bring in Brodsky and Jean Casarez there at the courthouse.
Jean Casarez, you heard Susan in Missouri`s question, what do you make of it?
CASAREZ: I have sat in that courtroom and I have watched, and I`m right here. I think this is a great judge for the defense. I`m going to put it that way. There are a lot of rulings, for instance, the judge said in regard to the property hearing that was weeks away after Kathy was discovered dead where they would sort out the property. The judge said there`s no issue here. Everything said and done, she being dead or alive would not determine the property hearing or what would come out of it. I think a lot of people would disagree.
GRACE: Is it true, Jean, that the judge yelled at Kathleen Savio`s sister?
CASAREZ: She said at the end, because the sister reiterated the documents speak for itself and the judge said, don`t you mock in this court. He did.
GRACE: Why did he do that?
CASAREZ: Because she was repeating what the attorney had said. "Your Honor, the documents speaks for itself." But then she reiterated, "The document speaks for itself." And the just thought she was mocking by repeating the legal statement.
GRACE: You know, he better watch out with that because very often, jurors pick up on that and they start to identify with the victim of the bullying in the courtroom.
I want to go to Dr. Bill Manion -- Jean, don`t move.
Dr. Manion, joining us out of Philadelphia tonight. Dr. Manion, I want Jean to hear and Brodsky to hear your assessment of the autopsy report of Kathleen Savio.
Dr. Manion, go ahead.
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Yes, listen, Nancy, I usually agree with you on many things, you`re a very perceptive person, and I`m sure (INAUDIBLE) in this case, but in this case the -- the bruises and things are so nonspecific. There are no classic defensive wounds, there`s no broken nails, there`s no broken fingers, there`s no injuries to her neck if he put a chokehold on her.
There`s no petechiae in her eyes or conjunctiva. So it`s a very, very difficult case. If I just had this case cold, I would probably call it undetermined and hope that the police would do a -- you know, lie detector test and do more expensive investigation, but it really is a very tough case.
GRACE: Good to know. Jean Casarez, you heard what Manion said, what is the state`s response to the bruises all over Kathleen Savio`s body?
CASAREZ: Well, the second autopsy is sealed, but we believe it`s going to be that those injuries were pre-death, pre-mortem, and they were injuries that were involved in a struggle. And there were injury --
GRACE: I`m looking at it, Jean.
CASAREZ: -- all over her body, bruises, abrasions.
GRACE: You`ve got on the left scalp, blood laceration, left behind, bruises, left lower abdomen, anterior thigh, shins, wrist, dorsum, elbow, it goes on and on, Jean.
BRODSKY: Pre-mortem isn`t the issue.
CASAREZ: But here`s the problem. Here`s the problem. Those in -- that second autopsy was done three years later after water was in the coffin.
GRACE: Right.
CASAREZ: And they took her body out and they`re going to say that they were old injuries, they weren`t of the moment when she was being killed. They were old.
BRODSKY: Exactly.
CASAREZ: Because that`s what the first autopsy determined.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigating the disappearance of young mom, Stacy Peterson, and the bathtub drowning of Kathleen Savio.
PETERSON: I`m a suspect officially but I think I was a suspect from the beginning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He thought all this was a joke in the very beginning. He probably thought he would never come to see this day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls, but first to John Lucich, former criminal investigation, president of E Forensics.
John, thanks for being with us. John, I know you heard what Jean said, that one of the autopsies we were referring to was done after she had been exhumed.
JOHN LUCICH, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR, PRESIDENT, E FORENSICS: Yes, absolutely. You know, that`s an unfortunate part. I think when they first looked at this case, number one, because he was a cop this is the kind of guy who could have taken steps to make it look like a -- an accident if, in fact, he is found guilty of this. And at the same time, the fact that he is one of their brothers, maybe they looked at it not in the whole light they should have been looking at it and now we have a woman who may have been killed and all of a sudden, all that evidence is going to sit dormant until the next wife shows up missing.
Now all this time has passed, they go back and redo an autopsy. And you know what, I`m an expert witness in court many times, Nancy, these experts come in and give their opinion. It is not always fact what they are saying, that it definitely happened. It is their opinion of what happened. Where in all these bruises could have been caused by a struggle also.
GRACE: To Robyn Walensky with "The Blaze." Robyn, what about the bath towels? Where do they fit in? Why was Drew Peterson cleaning the bathtub immediately after his third wife was dead?
WALENSKY: Apparently, Nancy, that he was cleaning the blood. So it never made any sense to me, if you -- if he -- he claims she drowned in a dry -- in a bathtub, why was her hair then matted with blood?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We believe that Drew was involved with this -- the death of my sister. We always believed that. She told me all the time, he is going to kill me. It`s going to look like an accident. Take care of my kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me, Robyn Walensky and Joel Brodsky, Drew Peterson`s lawyer. Let`s see both of them please, Dana.
Robyn, the final cause of death on wife number three, Kathleen Savio, was what?
WALENSKY: Homicide. That she was murdered and that the entire situation was staged.
GRACE: So, Joel, if she really did, as you say, knock herself in the head, and I don`t know what the defense is claiming she knock herd head on, why didn`t she drown to death, Joel?
BRODSKY: She did. As a matter of the fact all three -- every one in the state`s experts also testified the cause of death is drowning. Cause of death is drowning that`s undisputed. The state`s experts agree and the defense experts agree.
GRACE: What do you claim she hit her head on?
BRODSKY: Well, actually, I wasn`t in the bathroom but the experts are saying that she hit her head on the -- on the bathtub, on the side of the bathtub and that the fall was sufficient force to cause unconsciousness and that she drowned.
GRACE: So where you`re saying she hit her head at that location, was there blood?
BRODSKY: There`s no transfer -- you know, from being a prosecutor, you know, there`s that concept, what they call first hit free, there`s no transfer on the initial hit. They only gets blood splatter or transfer on a subsequent hit. So --
GRACE: So was there blood? Was there blood spatter?
BRODSKY: No. There was only one strike.
GRACE: So you`re saying she hit her head --
BRODSKY: She hit her head --
GRACE: -- on the bathtub but there`s no blood there.
(CROSSTALK)
BRODSKY: Right. Because there`s only one hit. One time. She slipped, she hit her head hard, got unconscious and drowned.
GRACE: Everyone, trial resumes.
Let`s stop and remember Army 1st Lt. David Wright, II, 26, Moore, Oklahoma, killed, Afghanistan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Achievement medal, a college track star. An only child, leaves behind parents, Tim and Michelle.
David Wright, II, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and happy 100th to Sam Ledbetter, World War II vet, nine grands, six greats.
Happy birthday, Sam.
Dr. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
