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Murder Mystery and Sex Diary
Aired August 20, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have never lusted for a woman as I have for Susan. I take video clips of her. How I would love to kiss those lips.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): That`s just a small piece of what police found in the secret sex journals of Steven Powell who also admitted to, quote, "looking at her naked body under the bathroom door using a mirror," unquote. He also said he would masturbate with her underwear he took from the laundry.
Steven Powell is the father-in-law of missing mom, Susan Powell, who vanished in 2009. After her disappearance, her husband, Josh Powell, blew up the house where he was hiding with his two young sons.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He blew up the house and the kids.
PINSKY: Police say Josh Powell used a hatchet on his boy and then torched the house they were in murdering his sons and killing himself. Powell had long been suspected in Susan`s disappearance.
But now, police are asking, do Steven Powell`s sex diaries which proclaim his love and lust for Susan Powell shed new light on the mystery of Susan`s whereabouts? Does Josh Powell`s father hold the key?
Plus, music superstar Rihanna opened up to Oprah Winfrey last night on OWN`s "Next Chapter," talking about the brutal beating she suffered at the hands of then-boyfriend, singer Chris Brown. Yet, Rihanna says she doesn`t blame him and even reunited with him for a new song.
RIHANNA, SINGER: I had to forgive him. Everybody is going to say`s monster, without looking at the source. And I was more concerned about him.
PINSKY: Why would she let him off the hook?
PINSKY: But first, the Powell family drama.
Joining me are: Susan Powell`s sister, Denise and Anne Bremner, the attorney who represents the Powell family.
Denise, first, I want to ask you, how did you and your family react when you first learned about Susan`s father-in-law`s diaries?
DENISE COX, SISTER OF MISSING SUSAN POWELL: Hi, Dr. Drew. They are pretty -- we knew something existed in a way of how -- how much in control Steve Powell was. We figured he had something written down on his accounts with her, but we weren`t sure how much of it and all the ages and entries and how graphic it was. We had no idea that much existed.
PINSKY: It`s pretty disgusting, Denise. I don`t know if my viewers were completely up on what exactly was in there. But can you help people understand exactly what you learned?
COX: It`s really not something I like to think about because Susan is my sister and I don`t even want to -- it`s so disgusting and makes you want to throw up if you read it. Or even just -- just in quotations, the little bits and pieces that have made it out, it`s unbelievably disgusting and I - - she never let on -- she let on that it was bad and he was making advances but she never let on how bad and how disgusting he actually was.
PINSKY: Denise, you have any theories why Josh allowed his dad to behave like this?
COX: I actually think his dad pulled the strings for Josh. Josh was not very -- he thought a lot and thought he was really smart, but he adored his dad. At one point when his dad and him weren`t talking, because Susan`s wishes, they were doing really well.
But as soon as things started going down hill, Susan told me he had been talking to his father a lot. And she was really against it. And when she told him that his father was making advances and wanted to share her, he didn`t seem concerned.
PINSKY: Anne, let me ask you this. Does the findings of this diary you bring us any closer to understanding what happened to Susan?
ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY FOR SUSAN POWELL`S FAMILY: I think it does, Dr. Drew, because there are so many obsessive entries in there about Susan it is really beyond the pale, as Denise just said. But things about, you know, his masturbation, taking items from her, even wax from when she wax her legs, obsessing constantly about her, that they should be married, that Josh should be out of the picture, and it was all pornographic as well.
I went and looked at the journals, Dr. Drew. They are whole, huge banker`s box of these items, spiral notebooks -- tells us this. We always thought he knew something about where Susan went and when she disappear bud now we have to wonder when he -- there was information about him being there the weekend of her disappearance, phone calls he made to Josh around that time, calling in sick to work after she disappeared, et cetera, and this really criminal obsession with her. I think it does bring us a lot closer and of course, we are digging for more.
PINSKY: Now, he has been convicted of voyeuristic behavior, right? He is in jail right now? I understand he has some sort of a file called "Hole in the pants." can you tell me about that?
BREMNER: Yes, I had the misfortune of seeing all the images in this case and one whole file is called "hole in the pants". And it`s picture after picture after picture of him, almost from a video showing his privates exposed in these pictures he took. And he would take pictures of himself on his deck exposing himself, he took pictures of the neighborhood girls who I represent as a voyeur and I could go on and on.
It`s just amazing, to the extent to which he was a voyeur, an exhibitionist and having just this unbelievable interest in Susan Cox Powell and these girls next door.
PINSKY: These girls next door, these are -- you say girls are they little girls, this guy was obsessing over children?
BREMNER: They were at the time. They are older now.
PINSKY: All right. Let me ask you --
BREMNER: He filmed them --
PINSKY: I don`t want to hear. I`m going to throw up myself right here right now. Let me ask you something.
BREMNER: OK. OK.
PINSKY: My clinical head goes to I wonder if the father abused the son in some way or if the son was somehow -- I think my viewers know about the Stockholm syndrome, somehow he was under the sway of the father as a perpetrator, the son was identifying with the father. Do either of you feel that he was under the dad`s sway in some sort of awful way? Ann`s saying yes.
COX: Yes, Dr. Drew.
BREMNER: Denise, you are closer to the situation.
Yes, Dr. Drew, when I met Josh for the first time, he was driving a van. I met him when I was 15. I`ve known him for a long time. I met him when I was 15.
And he was just visiting the family and he wouldn`t leave. But he was driving a van, and I thought that was odd. And he goes, well, my dad does. And pretty much if his dad did something, Josh thought he was a smart man and he did it himself.
PINSKY: Let`s try to take a call here real quick, Julia in Ohio.
Julia, you had a comment or question?
JULIA, CALLER FROM OHIO: Yes, hi, Dr. Drew. My question you kind of covered a little. How does his relationship with his father? He was so close, that affect the way he was with his wife.
PINSKY: I will have Anne address this issue. She hasn`t had a chance to speak on this yet. I really worry that this is some sort of perpetrator identification.
BREMNER: Yes, and he -- just look at the fact that as all this went on and even Steven Powell was going to dye his hair darker to look older, so he could marry her. He told his journals, he could read them in bed, and on and on. And Josh lived with this.
And during the time I`ve been able in this case, when Steven came out and said, I was in love with Susan, I had to get a TRO to get these journals, by the way, Josh said, she was a really sexual person.
PINSKY: Josh said that? Her husband said that? Her husband said that? And that`s the same garbage -- the same garbage that came out of the husband`s -- the father`s mouth earlier, that somehow Susan was the -- making the advances?
PINSKY: Denise, please, put -- set that record straight.
COX: Susan was pretty -- really didn`t even really care about boys. She cared more about her looks than even looking at boys. She more worried about just getting through school and being -- you know, she went to beauty school after high school and she wanted to make the world look pretty.
Boys were a side thing for her. She didn`t really care to get to know them. It was more pressure, I think, she felt to find a guy and have a family as, you know, what she wanted to do to fulfill her life.
PINSKY: Denise, I`m going to ask you after the break what it is about perhaps your own family of origin or Susan`s life that set her up not to see the warning signs in this guy and we are going to have a criminal profiler who gives her insight into the case.
And later in the show, why did superstar Rihanna forgive Chris Brown for beating her?
Of course, we`re taking your calls, 855-373-7395. Stay with us.
PINSKY: OK. A couple things before the break, I used a term that was sort of off-the-cuff, I said "perpetrator identification," which means when somebody is in a victim role, sometimes they identify with the person, victimize them. They take on their attitudes, their point of view. I think people have heard the Stockholm syndrome. I have been concerned something like that is going on between Josh and his father.
Now, before the break, I was asking Denise about what her family of origin or what Susan, her sister`s, life might have been like to set her up for this kind of relationship with Josh.
Joining me to discuss, psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall and Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "How to Save Your Daughter`s Life."
Pat, is there a situation where we could have saved this woman`s life?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I think so, and that`s one thing I have in the book I`m trying too get across to young women and their parents, is that there is a line of respect and if that man steps over it and doesn`t respect you early on in the relationship, that can be the big red flag, and you say, I don`t want anything to do with you.
And what happens is when we have really nice people, really nice girls, they keep forgiving that, oh, he is just being himself or he didn`t hear what I said. He is going along with the crowd or whatever it is, he`s doing what he is father wants him do, but he`s being disrespectful. And they allow that, and that`s when the man says, I`ve got myself a pigeon, I can control her and I can do what I want.
PINSKY: Denise, that sound familiar to you?
COX: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Susan and I were pretty much -- I was involved in an abusive relationship, more physical than mental, but I tried get across to her that things weren`t going to change and she didn`t want to listen, she thought she could change it, being strong in the church, she thought her faith would get to Josh and he would stand by her instead of her -- you know, instead of his father.
PINSKY: Denise, did you or Susan witness abuse growing up? Is that what set you up for this?
COX: Dr. Drew, my parents were really laid back. There`s no -- there`s no abuse at all. I don`t -- I honestly don`t know how we both ended up in similar situations. I never saw any abuse growing up at all.
PINSKY: Bethany, what do you think?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PH.D., PSYCHOANALYST: There was something vulnerable in both of these women that allowed them to accept this behavior. I kind of disagree with Pat Brown, because she says when the guy steps over the line, you have to stop him. You know, sometimes the guy steps over the line and the woman doesn`t even see it coming and it`s incremental.
Josh Powell, he had two babies with her. He moved his dad into the house. He was financially abusive. He took the money away. He completely took control of her life.
And I want to say something about this father/son duo. This dad was a pervert. And chances are he molested and raped his own son and he turned his son into a pervert. OK?
PINSKY: So do you think that`s what this was, maybe the son was serving Susan up to the dad even?
MARSHALL: I think the son was a pervert in every way that the father was. I think he was identified with the father -- as you said, identification with the aggressor. This is the kind of duo father/son where externally, they look perfect, but internally, they were black, they were perverted, they were dark.
And you talked about a legacy before the show. The legacy is the son became a pervert and the only way he could get out of that perversion was to annihilate himself, OK? How did he annihilate himself? He hacked up his sons with machetes. He probably tossed his wife into a cave and he blew the house up.
He didn`t just kill himself or his sons or his wife. He obliterated the entire family. It`s like -- it`s like cutting out the perversion at its roots.
PINSKY: Denise, I see you are having a reaction. Does this sound -- does this reach a core identification in some way?
COX: I honestly think she`s right. Because when we were going through the trial, I was there every day of Steve Powell`s trial. And it was quite upsetting to be with his daughter sitting behind us in the courtroom and she kept saying that the police, like, planted this stuff in his house and she was standing up for him.
And it makes me wonder, I don`t -- actually, I don`t wonder. I`m pretty sure it didn`t just go with Josh. I believe the whole family.
PINSKY: What are you feeling? You were sort of having a reaction when Dr. Marshall was talking about this. What was the feeling?
COX: It`s just -- you know, so hard to hear about how the boys died, you know? They didn`t deserve that. Their mom loved them so much.
PINSKY: Nobody deserved any of this. But you know where this all started, Bethany?
MARSHALL: This started with the father. This started with the father who has a severe perversion. She has all five perversions. There`s five pervasion. There`s sadism, there`s pedophilia, there`s exhibitionism, there`s voyeurism, there`s frauderism. Frauderism --
MARSHALL: Yes. It`s like you know, rubbing up against an unsuspecting person in public.
PINSKY: All of this everything.
MARSHALL: Well, he went into the laundry room and he took her dirty underwear and he sniffed it and he masturbated with the scent. That`s not like rubbing up against an unsuspecting person in public.
PINSKY: It`s worse.
MARSHALL: Technically, it`s worse.
PINSKY: This full manifestation of that horrible --
MARSHALL: He stuck a mirror under the door when she was urinating. So --
BROWN: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Pat, go ahead.
BROWN: Yes. I have to say. This -- you know, this is -- he`s not that atypical for a psychopath, for a sexual predator, which is what he was -- a sexual predator. And his behaviors are, we have seen that over and over again in sexual predators. I believe what you have in psychopath number one, raising a son and he is objectifying women to that son so the son grew up having no respect for women and thinking they were just a coupe doll he won at the carnival, he can do anything he wanted to.
MARSHALL: Pat, if was objectifying women, it would be half of the males in our society. It`s much more severe than that.
BROWN: But we are talking about -- yes, they are psychopaths. Both of them are psychopaths. But I think -- I don`t think he was cutting out perversion when he killed himself, I think he was getting back at everybody else, because he hated everybody else except for himself and his father.
MARSHALL: And himself and obliterating himself and obliterating the entire family legacy.
PINSKY: The amount of rape -- let`s all agree about this, this is such a black feeling. This is such a deep, dark hole that this -- I`m going to -- Denise, I`m going to go to you, you`re wearing a little banner there with your nephews on it, aren`t you?
Yes, these were the final victims of this horrible, dark rage. And they didn`t deserve it. We need to be aware of these kinds of people. They are out there.
And, Pat, I can`t even make light of where you went with it, back to psychopathy, but let`s call it that for now. We`re going to keep -- we`re going to keep --
BROWN: That`s what it s that`s what women need to recognize, what women need to recognize when they`re teens and as adults, we need to teach our young girls to recognize psychopathy and need to show that, they shouldn`t go that direction.
PINSKY: And to respond to their instincts and to assert themselves.
Next up, more on the Powell family drama.
Later on, more of the same kind of topic, we`re going to talk about Rihanna and now her forgiveness for Chris Brown for having beaten her. Is there forgiveness in that kind of thing? What does that message send out to other young women?
Taking your calls, 855-373-7395.
PINSKY: We have been talking about Steve Powell, a disgusting perpetrator and the effect he had on his son who ultimately had to obliterate his entire family.
Anne Bremner, I wanted to give you a chance to respond what we were saying out here. Do you have anything to add?
BREMNER: No I was listening. I think Bethany was absolutely right. And, of course, I always love to listen to Pat.
But I was sitting here thinking to myself, in my car, I had that same badge that Denise has of the boys and it says "In God`s hands," of Charlie and Braden, next to the patron saint of lawyers, which is Sir Thomas More, a medal, because it irks me to no end, I know it does you, Dr. Drew this evil occurred in this case with these people and there`s got to be something good to come out of this some time.
PINSKY: Well, again, I like the road that Pat was going down in terms of alerting young women and get women to listen to their instincts. Let`s take some calls.
Kyle in Idaho. Kyle?
KYLE, CALLER FROM IDAHO: Hi, Dr. Drew.
KYLE: My question is how much blame can you put on Josh for being basically a product of his upbringing, being manipulated, brainwashed and molested throughout his childhood? How much blame can you put on that?
PINSKY: I get the question. Anne, I`m sure you have a legal take. But I want to go to Bethany, because it`s an interesting sort of philosophical question. People may not be responsible for their upbringing, their pathology, but they are responsible to do something about it.
MARSHALL: Josh Powell had every opportunity to separate and individuate from his father.
PINSKY: And social services were involved. He could have taken help. He could have --
MARSHALL: He had school teachers. Where was his mother? Where were his friends? He probably had all kinds of influences.
And what did he do? He moved the perpetrator into his house with his wife and then he had children. He didn`t just -- he didn`t try to leave his dad. He moved his dad right back in.
And this whole thing about -- you know, about women stepping over the line, or keeping them out, stepping over the line, we have to stop blaming women in the story and we have to stop blaming the women`s parents.
Denise, it may well be that there was nothing in your parents that caused this to happen to you, but your family was hooked in by another family of perpetrators.
PINSKY: Anne, you are shaking your head.
BROWN: Nobody is blaming --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Pat.
BROWN: Nobody is blaming the women here. I have to comment on this. This idea that because we warn women and we want to teach women how to protect themselves against these guys is not blaming women. The problem is one of` got one of these people out there, Josh Powell or Steve Powell, when the woman runs into him, he`s already a psychopath. We can`t fix him.
What we can do is try to help women recognize them so they don`t end up in this horrible situation. That`s not blaming women. That`s called education. And we got to stop saying educating women is blaming them.
PINSKY: Denise, you`re in middle of all this. How do you -- what`s your take? How do you feel?
COX: Being in a bad situation myself, I was really pretty much -- I think we never saw the -- any abuse or anything growing up, but more or less we were taught to be nice and to, you know, to make people happy. And I think that`s what with Susan and I, both of our relationships, we tried make them happy.
And luckily, I realized too, I realized in time that there`s no making anyone like that happy. Susan just didn`t understand quite that there was no making them happy and she didn`t -- I don`t think that Susan knew how deep Josh was into his perversion. I don`t think she knew -- he kept the computer locked from her, obviously, but I obviously don`t think she -- she knew there was stuff in the computer but hadn`t seen it.
MARSHALL: Denise, I think when you say she didn`t know about the perversion, I agree with you. And in the literature, we have a phrase. It`s called that these psychopaths wear the mask of sanity. That means that they learn to act normal and to move in society as if they are normal people, but they are not.
So, I believe that the perversion was hidden and I think sometimes, women do get hooked in and they didn`t see it coming.
Steve Powell`s own daughter was hooked in. He probably raped and molested her, too, and she is in court and she is in the public eye and she is standing up for her father.
PINSKY: Ladies, thank you for this discussion. I need some sort of anti-nausea medicine right now. I`m afraid. I`m sorry.
Denise, I want you to know that we -- our hearts go out to you. My thoughts are with the young boys on your pin. It is an awful story. I hope the four of us -- five of us, the four of you particularly today have helped pull off the mask of sanity and allowed women to trust their instincts.
Women know better than anybody. They have got great instincts but they have to respond to them. They can`t cave, make men happy.
Thank you, ladies.
Next up, Rihanna has forgiven Chris Brown -- speaking of somebody who -- I don`t know, we will have to investigate this a little further, whether it is appropriate for her to forgive him or not. We`ll talk about that, and other women who have had high-profile domestic violence relationships - - up after this.
PINSKY (voice-over): Music superstar, Rihanna, opened up to Oprah Winfrey last night on OWN`s "Next Chapter" talking about the brutal beating she suffered at the hands of then-boyfriend, singer, Chris Brown.
RIHANNA, SINGER: I lost my best friend. Like, everything I knew switched. Switched in a night.
PINSKY: Yet, Rihanna says she doesn`t blame him and even reunited with him for a new song.
RIHANNA: I had to forgive him. Everybody is going to say he`s monster without looking at the source.
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST: Yes.
RIHANNA: And I was more concerned about him.
PINSKY: Why would she let him off the hook? Why do women forgive their abusers? Tonight, surprising secrets from Rihanna`s past that may have made her an easy target for abuse and why the cycle of domestic violence continues.
PINSKY (on-camera): And remember, we are talking about women`s instincts when they approach and get into these kinds of relationships and why they don`t stand up for themselves. This is not just for our viewers, but the daughters of our viewers, educate your kids about this stuff.
Joining me now are Taylor Armstrong who stars in the "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills." She writes about some alleged abuse by her late husband in her book, "Hiding From Reality," and Mary Murphy, a judge on "So You Think You Can Dance." She alleges that her first husband beat and raped her during their nine-year marriage.
We want to say that he has publicly denied those accusations, but Mary, what is your reaction to Rihanna`s interview?
MARY MURPHY, ALLEGES EX-HUSBAND BEAT, RAPED HER: Well, it`s certainly perplexing, because, you know, one second, it seems like that she really wants him back, you know, which is --
PINSKY: Can you relate to that, though --
MURPHY: Well, yes. I mean, I left several times, but this was a long-term relationship. That abuse started happening. And of course, I wanted to believe -- I think it is a mantra, this will never happen again. I heard it over and over.
PINSKY: And that`s because I love you so much --
MURPHY: I love you so much. I would never do that, hit you again. And of course, you want to believe that because you fell in love with that person. That`s why I think it`s so difficult when someone hits you that you`re in love with, it almost -- I hate to say this, I wish it was a complete stranger that would have done that as opposed to somebody that I love, because your self-esteem goes down hill right away.
PINSKY: You`re talking about fairly dispassionately, but I can see in your eyes, there`s a lot of pain back there. He really hurt you.
MURPHY: Of course. Even though you might take it and put it in a little compartment and you go on your way like she did. Rihanna put herself into work for the next few years, working all the time, she said, too you saw a little bit of the dark side, her outfits that she was wearing, the music that she was singing.
PINSKY: That self-esteem problem you were talking about, too, though. Yes.
MURPHY: Her self-esteem was kind of coming down. It seems like she`s coming up out of it, but just when you think she`s coming out of it, she`s saying, he still gives me butterflies. It`s hard. She`s young. It`s her first love. But I just want to say, wake up and stay away from him!
PINSKY: Now, during last night`s interview, Rihanna opened up on OWN with Oprah, talking about forgiveness toward Chris Brown. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RIHANNA: I thought I hated Chris. And I realized it was -- it was love that was tarnished and looked like hate because it was ugly. It was angry. It was inflamed. It was tainted. And I realized that what it was I had to forgive him because I cared about himself. And the minute I let go of that like I started living again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Taylor, do you have any response to Rihanna for not just forgiving him but calling that love?
TAYLOR ARMSTRONG, "REAL HOUSEWIVES OF BEVERLY HILLS": Well, as you know, in my story, "Hiding From Reality," I felt the same thing. You know, I kept this hope and I feel like the beautiful thing about love is hope, but when you`re in a domestic violence relationship, you`re holding onto that hope that that is never going to happen again.
And I can tell you, I`m speaking at colleges and universities now, and I`m telling young women, if you see the red flags, just as you said, Dr. Drew, trust your instincts. Things always escalate, and they always get worse.
PINSKY: They don`t always get worse, but the guys that recover from this kind of thing have to work for years on -- they have to be motivated and they have to work for years on their own stuff. It doesn`t just get better.
MURPHY: No, I don`t think it gets better, and it seems like to me, and I could be wrong, I don`t know what all Chris Brown did, but it seemed like he did the bare minimum, which was his 180 hours of service and be on probation for five years. That`s not going to be enough to change a pattern where somebody can literally beat the person that supposedly that you love. Look at her face. It`s unbelievable.
PINSKY: Yes. This is not love, guys. This is not love. You don`t treat people you love like this. It`s a lot of things. It`s not love. Dawn in Texas, do you have a comment?
DAWN, TEXAS: Dr. Drew, actually, I do. I have been raised in domestic violence and I`ve also experienced domestic violence, but I also happen to know that there is a root of all evil. And not that I condone this type of behavior whatsoever, but I do -- I do understand the human reaction and I`m the type of person that wants to see, where did that come from?
I know that that`s not always a personal attack on me, myself, which I`m not one right now.
PINSKY: Well, but you just said out -- you set the table. It happened in your family of origin. Those kinds of experiences actually intensify our attraction to people and circumstances that will oblige us by doing the same thing. Mary, sound familiar?
MURPHY: Yes, absolutely. It`s going to happen time and time again and as much as would you love to believe that it`s not going to happen, it`s going to happen.
Rolland in California -- Rolland.
ROLLAND, CALIFORNIA: Hey, Dr. Drew, how is it going today?
PINSKY: Quite good. Go ahead.
ROLLAND: You know, despite what people are saying about Rihanna with this domestic violence, I believe that what she did was essential, which was going back and straightening out the relationship that she had with her father, which is ideal, because that`s the love that she`s probably missing and receiving the wrong messages.
And now, being able to go back and form a friendship with Chris Brown and give him the forgiveness that he needs, I think that`s the key point right there. So, she learned something from her father on how to deal with the situation. And I believe everything else will come in time. I don`t think that she`ll probably go back in another relationship with Chris Brown again.
PINSKY: Roland, hold that thought. I want to discuss that and more Rihanna when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARMSTRONG: I do think that what Russell and I had, and you`re better to tell me, was more of a love addiction. I think it`s the deepest, most dramatic love I`ll ever feel in my life, but I don`t know it was ever a healthy love.
PINSKY: No, right. That`s pathological love.
PINSKY: We say lightning bolt as opposed to butterflies. Lightning bolt`s not good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RIHANNA: I felt protective. Like, I felt like the only person to hate right now is him. It was a weird, confusing space to be in because as angry as I was, angry and hurt and betrayed, I just felt like he made that mistake because he needed help and like who`s going to help him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Rihanna last night on the Oprah Winfrey Network, talking about the 2009 assault she suffered at the hands of then-boyfriend, Chris Brown. Now, I was talking to Rolland before the break. And Rolland, you said that she`s gotten out together with her father and you think that by healing that relationship, they`ll then be able to translate to something healthier with men, is that what you were saying?
ROLLAND: Yes, that is exactly correct, because, you know, seeing that her father abuse her mother, seeing that all her life, that was the message that she had. So, now, when she went back and discussed it with him, I think that opened up her eyes to a lot of different things. And if you hoard, obviously, this emotion inside, it doesn`t help her. So, sometimes, you just have to let that go, don`t you think?
PINSKY: Well, hold that thought. What do you think, Mary?
MURPHY: Well, Rolland, I definitely agree. Forgiveness is really key, especially with what her father did to her mother and growing up and seeing that pattern, and all of a sudden, I think she`s just hit overwhelmingly like oh, my gosh, now this is in my life. But yes, forgive him. Go back to him? Never, you know?
Until he does the real work, and let me tell you, it will take a long time and a lot of work to cure his anger management issues.
PINSKY: The way you put it was exactly right. But I want to say, Rolland is that remember, Rihanna`s sense of attachment and love is to a man that`s capable of treating a woman that way. I would think of it more that way.
And although, they may have had an open conversation with dad, she may have had a conversation with dad about it may have improved her relationship with him, unless, he has changed, he`s still that perpetrator. Taylor, you know what I`m talking about?
ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. My husband had anger management. And, we all see how that ended up. So, just because you go through the motion to keep yourself out of trouble with the laws doesn`t mean that you learn from it and that you can change those behaviors.
PINSKY: Oprah Winfrey asked Rihanna last night during the next chapter of a film (ph) if she still loves her ex-boyfriend, Chris Brown. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: Do you think Chris Brown is a true love for you?
RIHANNA: Absolutely. I think he was the love of my life. He was the first love. I truly love him. So, the main thing for me is that he is at peace, you know? I`m not at peace if he`s a little unhappy or he`s still lonely or, you know, that`s -- I care. Like, I`m -- you know, it actually matters that he finds that peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mary, the first half of this show, I talked about people identifying with the perpetrators. Here`s a great example of that. She`s not OK if he`s not OK, as opposed to being concerned with her own well being, she`s got to make him OK. That`s pathological. That`s a problem.
And Taylor, I`ve told you, I mean, if you remember, that lightning bolts is not love. Lightning bolts is arousal and intensity and people who have love addiction get -- confuse that with what`s really love, which is nourishing and close and vulnerable. How do we help young women and other viewers out there understand that difference?
ARMSTRONG: For me, it was all about self-esteem. And I think building up our young women and young men to have more self-esteem and know your value so that the moment that someone starts to control you or they start to behave toward you in a way that doesn`t show that they don`t value you, you know to walk away.
PINSKY: I think that`s a pretty good note.
MURPHY: No, I think it`s a really good note. And just walk away is the key, but it`s not always that easy.
PINSKY: Because people are sort of addicted.
MURPHY: Well, what was the relationship, too, as well before that crazy night of violence? What was it like? Was there a genuine love? Was there any signs whatsoever? Why didn`t Oprah ask that question is what I want to know? Was he demeaning to her? Did it start verbally? Did he start pushing her? Did he knock her down before this big moment? We didn`t get the answer to that question.
PINSKY: We didn`t get that, and we didn`t get the description of that intensity that she confused with love.
Dawn in North Carolina, you got a quick thing for us, quick question?
DAWN, NORTH CAROLINA: Yes, I do. You know, forgiveness, I just don`t think should be confused with acceptance. And I think the forgiveness is for Rihanna, not for him.
PINSKY: OK. Hold that thought, everybody. I see Taylor shaking her head vigorously as well. More of your calls on Rihanna and Chris Brown after the break.
PINSKY: We are back. We`ve been talking about abuse, Rihanna, and Chris Brown. We had a caller, Dawn, who was talking about forgiveness but not acceptance. And Mary, you wanted to react to that.
MURPHY: Oh, I absolutely agree with this caller, forgiveness, but not acceptance, and it`s forgiveness for herself, you know? It`s something -- you know, when something like this happens to you, you put it away, you forget all about it, you have to push it down. It`s so painful.
PINSKY: I see the -- it`s funny. I see -- your eyes, you don`t let us into it, but I can see it behind your eyes there.
MURPHY: But you have to forgive to let it go.
PINSKY: Describe that in more details. Hold on. Describe that in more details, because I hear women who`ve been victimized say that all the time. The most difficult person to forgive was myself.
PINSKY: What does that mean?
MURPHY: You know, because you start to wonder, what did I say? What did I do --
PINSKY: Blame yourself? Do you deserve that?
MURPHY: Yes, absolutely, because nobody else in your life treated you like that.
PINSKY: So, I must have caused --
MURPHY: I must have caused this.
PINSKY: Taylor, does that sound familiar?
ARMSTRONG: All too familiar. And then you wake up one day and you`re in the hospital and you can`t figure out how you got there. I mean, I just never saw it coming, and then, now, in looking back, I should have seen it all along the way.
PINSKY: Now, Dawn, my understanding is you ultimately left your husband. Is that correct?
DAWN: Yes, I did.
PINSKY: And how did that go? Did that help?
DAWN: The way I look at it or the way what happened to me is abusive (ph), progressive. It started out as a horrible abuse. And in the end, my children resented me, even though I was the one with the scars and that -- I was the one that broke up the family.
PINSKY: So, hold on. So, your children actually, again, started identifying with the perpetrator, with your husband, and then blamed you?
DAWN: Right. And let me just clarify, when I talk about forgiveness being for her, what I mean is don`t -- you know, forgive him, but forgive him for your own sake. I`m not saying she did anything wrong to be forgiven for, but you know, just forgiveness is -- not forgiving somebody is like swallowing a poison pill and expecting somebody to die.
PINSKY: That`s right. That`s what we call resentment is you take the poison, expect it to harm the other person. But I`ll tell you what, Dawn, you know, well done leaving. These are very important messages. I want to go out to Mary in Nebraska -- Mary.
MARY, NEBRASKA: Yes, Dr. Drew. Hello.
PINSKY: Hi, Mary.
MARY: We have done all of the above. And I can honestly say that I think we need to have more education on what -- how insidious abuse is.
PINSKY: Well, so, Mary, I want to stop you in your tracks. One of the big reasons we`re doing this show is not just for our adult viewers but for their children. What do we tell our kids, Mary?
MARY: I have a 41-year-old daughter and it`s really important to me that I want to know that I did everything I could to show her what a healthy, strong person is. Healthy, strong person.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mary.
MURPHY: Well, I find that really interesting, because when I left for college, I think I was a strong, healthy person. I was an athlete. I was determined. I had all the hopes and dreams that any young girl would have. I fell in love. I adored him.
And the second that I got married, all of a sudden, a few months into it, I was just, you know, raped and beaten, and all of a sudden, my self- esteem just went tumbling and spiraling out of control, like how is it possible that the person that I love just did this?
PINSKY: OK. Hold that thought. Taking a break. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: We`re back. We`ve been discussing Rihanna and Chris Brown, and using their relationship as a springboard to discuss abusive relationship generally. Taylor, I`m going to ask you the same question in a second that I`m going to ask Mary right now, which is, how do we help people shift from that sense of what love is to oh, my, God, I`m in trouble? How do you make that shift? Is it hard?
MURPHY: It is hard. And I think the first find and the fact that we`re trying to educate people that one, you get those signals and that first sign. You have to run for the hills. You`ve got to get the hell out of town. You`ve got to go to help --
PINSKY: What are the first signs?
MURPHY: The first sign is definitely someone that`s trying to control you, financially, mentally, with your friends, your family. That`s one of the first signs, and then, after that, once the -- after the verbal abuse starts, then the physical abuse will come. And most women are often -- also raped as well along the way in their marriage.
PINSKY: And they don`t even know -- they don`t identify it as such. I mean, we had that crazy -- we had the politician make some crazy comments about legitimate rape. I don`t know if you heard that.
MURPHY: Oh, for God`s sakes.
PINSKY: Yes. But please, he was quoting physicians as saying that the woman`s body will reject the sperm if it`s a rape. Please, let me as a physician tell you, utter, unadulterated, complete hogwash. Taylor, same question to you about the shift from love to understanding. You`ve got a problem.
ARMSTRONG: I think everything that Mary just said, the controlling behaviors start pretty early on, telling you how to dress, who you can talk to. I had a lot of experience with him going through my cell phone, recording devices, going through my e-mail. All those signs of jealousy and control were there really early on and I just kept running full bore right toward the relationship.
PINSKY: It`s funny, Taylor, when you were saying that I saw Mary actually shudder the description about you were going through. I think I have just enough time for a phone. Alicia, if you can make it very quick. What do you got?
ALICIA, MICHIGAN: Yes. I just want to just say that I also understand that addiction can make people say and do things that they would not normally do. And my son`s father hit me one time, it was an isolated incident. He is working a program of recovery today.
PINSKY: Alicia --
ALICIA: He`s a different person.
PINSKY: I am so glad you brought that up, because that is a circumstances -- a circumstance where in when there is abuse, there can be recovery, but you got to go to Al-Anon. He`s got to do his 12-step work and he`s going to be doing it every day. And if they don`t take care of their disease, then you do have to head for the hills, as Mary would say.
So, yes, there are treatable parts of this that sometimes can have a better prognosis. Wouldn`t you agree?
MURPHY: Yes, absolutely. I -- it`s going to be a hard road, though.
PINSKY: Either way, it`s always -- let`s not mince words. These are all situations were everybody`s got to work very hard. We can`t be Pollyanna about this. It`s not just, oh, he`s the love of my life. Someday, we`ll get back together. No. It`s not like that. It`s not how people work (ph). Mary, thank you. It`s really pleasure.
MURPHY: Thank you so much. Nice to meet you.
PINSKY: And Taylor, thank you so much for joining us again. I do appreciate it. And we can see Mary on Wednesday`s nights --
MURPHY: "So you think you can dance."
PINSKY: That`s right. You got something else coming up, too?
MURPHY: Yes. The Hollywood dance board championships, first weekend of November. Come on down and see amazing dancers.
PINSKY: That`s here in Hollywood?
MURPHY: Here in Hollywood.
PINSKY: Check that out.
Thank you, guys, for being here. Thanks for watching. Thanks for calling. Nancy Grace starts right now.