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NANCY GRACE

13-Year-Old Wisconsin Boys Kill Grandma With Hatchet

Aired September 27, 2012 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Wisconsin. Two gorgeous all-American boys, a 13-year-old and his best friend, head to visit Grandma. But then a sick and stunning twist.

Bombshell tonight, grandmother found dead, beaten to death by a blunt object, the 78-year-old grandma`s skull actually pierced from a final blow from a hatchet blade, the house ransacked, missing only loose change, pizza money. Getaway car, Grandma`s gold Buick.

Tonight, murder for pizza. The worst part, apparent killer, Grandma`s own 13-year-old grandson and his little best friend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first officers on the scene could tell immediately just how violent the death of 78-year-old Barbara Olson was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a horrific and gruesome killing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) itself was extremely disturbing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say she was targeted by two boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 13-year-old great-grandson, Antonio Barbeau, conspiring with his 13-year-old friend, Nathan Paape.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were planning to rob her before striking her in the head with a hatchet and hammer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My goodness, that`s insane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They continued to beat her with the hammer and the blade end of the hatchet until she died. They tried to get rid of her body but were unsuccessful, so they left it in the garage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t discovered for two days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Badly beaten, lying in a pool of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police searched the home, finding blood-spattered clothing, the victim`s gold watch, and in a nearby storm drain, the victim`s purse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) bowling lane and went out and had a pizza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. Live to Wisconsin. Two gorgeous all-American boys, a 13-year-old little boy and his best friend, head to visit their grandmother. But then a sick and stunning twist. Grandma dead, the house ransacked, missing just loose change, murder for pizza! Apparent killer, the grandmother`s own 13-year-old little grandson and his little best friend, now co-defendant.

These two kids -- look at them. They`re Justin Bieber look-alikes. They`re two all-American little boys, no history of problems, nothing. They look like two twins.

We are taking your calls. Straight out to Dan O`Donnell, anchor/reporter with WTMJ joining me out of Milwaukee. Dan, what happened?

DAN O`DONNELL, 620 WTMJ: Well, as far as we know, one of the boys` mothers dropped them off at his friend`s great-grandmother`s house. They apparently, according to their statements to police, intended to murder this boy Antonio, known to his friends as Tino`s great-grandmother and rob her of, as you said, just some loose change, some jewelry and the woman`s purse. They also took her car to use as their getaway car.

GRACE: OK, Dan O`Donnell, I was holding out. I thought I was going to hear some facts suggesting that they got angry, that they -- even though it may not make sense to us as adults, that something spurred them to this act. But what you are telling me, Dan O`Donnell, is that they went to the grandmother`s home to murder her.

O`DONNELL: As far as I know, the motive is believed to have been robbery. But they went to the grandmother`s home with the intention of killing her. And the manner in which they did it, police tell me, is one of the most shocking that they could imagine or that they`ve ever seen.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Joining me is a very special guest, taking time out of his extremely busy schedule to help us understand, Chief Steven Riffel. He is joining us from Sheboygan Falls Police Department, the director of public safety, the police chief.

Chief, thank you so much for being with us. It`s very hard. I recall prosecuting in juvenile hall, before I got to jury trials, juveniles. And I recall juvenile murder cases. Now, very often, Chief, with cases such as murder, aggravated assault, rape, child molestation, arson, those major felonies would be bound over from juvenile hall to adult court to ensure an adult sentence.

But before I get to the legalities of this, Chief, I want to make sure I understand what really happened. I want to understand the facts. With me, Chief Steven Riffel, the police chief joining us out of Milwaukee.

Chief, describe to me the scene when EMTs and police arrived.

CHIEF STEVEN RIFFEL, SHEBOYGAN FALLS POLICE (via telephone): Well, the scene was very -- I would categorize it as a brutal scene. It was very difficult to imagine the officers responding initially for an assistance call. The call initially came in via 911 for an issue for a female that needed assistance and was down.

And immediately upon the officers` arrival, there was very large amount of evidence to suggest, obviously, that a homicide had occurred. And the officers immediately went to secure the residence to ensure there were no other victims, and the perpetrators weren`t there or in the area. And that is the scene that the officers initially responding to saw right away.

GRACE: With me is the police chief, Steven Riffel. You know, Chief, I don`t know if you know this, I have twin children, John David and Lucy. They`re only 4. And I was intent on naming Lucy Haley (ph) before she was born, but she and I both nearly died in childbirth, and I felt my grandmother with me, who helped raise me, and named her Lucy after my grandmother.

And I`m just having a hard time taking in -- because I`m thinking of my grandmother -- that these two young boys could actually go into the home planning a murder. I`m sure that this great-grandmother never knew what hit her.

I mean, what do we know about the murder? Did she understand what was happening? Was she hit from behind and never knew? What is your theory about what happened, Chief?

RIFFEL: Well, I think, number one, it`s very difficult for people to grasp this. I think we`re all struggling to understand how two 13-year- olds could be involved in such an act.

But as far as the information that we`ve been able to obtain in the investigation -- and you have to understand, obviously, this is still an ongoing investigation. We`re doing a mountain of follow-up.

But we believe that based upon the information we have, when they entered the home with the intent to kill her, that is correct, that she immediately had them or offered them to enter the home, and the attack took place immediately after that.

And she did -- and we do have the information to believe that she did beg for her life while this was taking place. She was initially struck with the blunt end of the hatchet, and then the hammer, and finally, as you had described, the hatchet blade embedding it so far into her skull that it literally took both boys to pry it out.

GRACE: OK, Chief, that`s the first time that I had heard that fact, the grandmother begging that her great-grandson not kill her.

These two little boys -- they look like Justin Bieber lookalikes -- entered the home of the 78-year-old grandmother, and they leave with pizza money after they murder her, the hatchet and mallet, the murder weapons, found in the getaway car, Grandma`s gold Buick.

We are taking your calls. Out to Robert in Pennsylvania. Hi, Robert. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`d like to ask -- and I know I only speak with -- not with any sense of the law, as your panelists do, Ms. Grace. But with all of the violence that has happened over the years, whether it`s Columbine or whether it`s that poor boy who was murdered in England by those two thuggish teenagers, I`m wondering as to how, with all this talk of improving this and improving that, how something like this could happen. And I`m sorry if that`s such a naive question.

GRACE: You know what, Robert in Pennsylvania? It`s not naive. I`ve got to tell you that when I was prosecuting in juvenile hall, and then later on as a felony prosecutor in adult court, when juveniles would be bound over for me to have to have to handle the case, I was torn because I have to represent crime victims. That`s what I do.

I`m a crime victim. I represent crime victims. Simply. But I`m not blind, Robert in Pennsylvania. When I look over at the defendant`s seat and I see a 13-year-old boy, I say, Why? Why does it have to be this way? Why -- why is all the money we pay in taxes, why is it not being used to rehabilitate or help children at risk?

So you`re not -- I as a prosecutor, am not in the position of deciding should I send them to jail for life or for voluntary manslaughter, which is 20 years, since he`s just 13 when he committed a heinous crime on his great-grandmother. Prosecutors are in the position that there`s no help. There`s no money. There`s no program. There`s nothing except jail. And I`m certainly not arguing that they don`t deserve jail.

Let me hear some more of the facts. Out to Paul Westcott joining me, WGIR and The Wave. What more do we know, Paul?

PAUL WESTCOTT, WGIR 610 AM: Nancy, it`s a disturbing case, obviously, in which these two young boys went into that -- went into a great- grandmother`s home. They went in, and as the chief said, they are with premeditated intent to kill her, and that was according to statements made by Paape to police about Barbeau, saying, We could, quote, "kill her and get some money."

GRACE: And the reality, Paul Westcott, is how much money did they get?

WESTCOTT: They got pizza money, as you said, Nancy. They then took the grandmother`s gold car, drove it off to the bowling alley and used that money for pizza.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thirteen-year-old boys from Sheboygan, Antonio Barbeau and Nathan Paape...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged with killing Barbeau`s great-grandmother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woman died from blunt force trauma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say the boys confessed to killing her with a hammer and hatchet, stealing her car and dumping it in a bowling alley parking lot, then going out for pizza before walking home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines. Did two gorgeous all-American-looking kids -- and for those of you that don`t like their hair and their hat and all this, well, that`s the style. Take a look at Justin Bieber. That`s exactly what he looks like, all right?

These two little boys accused of premeditation murder, going to their great-grandmother`s house. She`s 78 years old. She opens the door, of course, to them, lets them in, only to be attacked by a hatchet and a mallet. For what? Pizza money.

She begs for her life, according to Chief Steven Riffel. I can`t ask him too much because I don`t want to taint the investigation in any way, but those are the facts.

We are taking your calls. Jennifer in Georgia, can you imagine these two then take Grandma`s gold Buick, go to the bowling alley and enjoy pizza, you know, thanks to their great-grandmother`s pocketbook that they ransacked. It took two of them, Jennifer, to pull the hatchet out of her skull. Thoughts?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe it. I think it`s just absolutely insane. But what I`m wondering is, do you think that they may have been under the influence of these synthetic drugs that are going around now, the bath salts or synthetic marijuana? And if so, can -- will they be tested for something like that?

GRACE: Let`s go out to Dr. Kent Harshbarger, medical examiner, forensic pathologist. And let me focus on the pathologist part of that mix. Let`s talk about synthetic drugs.

Hold, Doctor. Chief Riffel, is there any indication that they were under the influence of drugs? I`m just grasping at straws here.

RIFFEL: Well, I think it`s -- I think a number of people are always asking why. It`s very -- as I said earlier, it`s very difficult to understand. People want to know why. And obviously, as you stated, I don`t want to reveal too much information, as this is an ongoing investigation. But you know, it`s certainly, something we`re going to follow up on. But at this point, we believe it was a very cold, calculated decision to commit the murder and kill Mrs. Olson.

GRACE: You know, Chief Riffel, you and your people worked this case tirelessly. The fact that they then went to a bowling alley -- I`m going to throw this to Harshbarger, Dr. Harshbarger, because I can`t push the chief too far because he cannot comment openly on a lot of the police theories that may be used by the prosecutor, if there is a trial.

To Dr. Harshbarger, joining me out of Dayton tonight. Dr. Harshbarger, you`ve got synthetic marijuana, as Jennifer pointed out. There`s always bath salts, which is the rage now.

Question. I find it hard to believe that if they were under the influence of either of those two synthetic drugs that they could have hidden the murder weapon in the trunk -- the weapons -- driven to a bowling alley, gone into a bowling alley, been coherent, ordered pizza with the stolen money, thought to have -- leave behind the pocketbook and just get the money and go into the bowling alley, and sit down with all the other patrons and have pizza.

I don`t see how they could do that if they were high on bath salts or synthetic marijuana. I mean, I`d like to believe they were, Doctor, because that might explain it to me. It might give me some kind of consolation in my heart that they were out of their minds when they did it. But the reality is, that`s not what happened. They were cold-blooded killers.

DR. KENT E. HARSHBARGER, MEDICAL EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Right. I would agree. The way (ph) and the facts that we do know now do not suggest that there is some kind of psychotic break, and then happened, this rage, from a drug-induced phenomenon, and then just shut it off and go have some pizza at the local pizza joint.

GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls. But I want to go to Alexis Weed, our producer on the story. Alexis, there are so many layers to it. Give me some more of the facts.

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Sure, Nancy. So these two kids -- they supposedly concealed the weapons that they brought and used to kill this great-grandmother underneath their clothes while the friend`s mother was driving them to the house. This all takes place before she`s bludgeoned to death with that last hatchet blow that ended up ending her life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Did two 13-year-old boys, all-American boys, murder their great-grandmother for pizza money? That`s the way the facts look tonight.

Now, although it is extremely rare, parenticide -- or as it is called technically parricide, it`s the murder of a parent -- here we`re talking about the murder of a grandmother, a great-grandmother. They`re not the first to have done it.

You`ve got the two young boys -- remember Alex and Derek King, father victim. You`ve got Shirley Wolf, Cindy Collier, 14 and 15. There is the machete home invasion murder. There`s the 16-year-old Whitehead twins, Erik and Lyle Menendez, though -- of course, you can never leave them out of the mix. Sarah Johnson was 16, Cody Posey 14, Christopher Pittman just 12 when Christopher Pittman kills both of his grandparents. So it`s not unheard of, but it`s actually statistically extremely unusual.

Unleash the lawyers, Parag Shah, Atlanta, Bradford Cohen, Miami, Burke Strunsky, LA. All right, Parag Shah, let`s hear your defense. I`ve been waiting on pins and needles!

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the defense is mitigation. Juveniles have a diminished capacity and a greater potential of reform, and that`s why they don`t deserve the most severe punishment.

GRACE: You know what, Parag Shah? Tell it to Grandma. Propensity for reform, ability for reform -- are you serious? That`s what you`ve got for the defense?

All right, you know what? I didn`t like it. OK, Cohen, let`s hear.

BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, the only defense you would have, although there`s a lot of things working against you, is some sort of insanity defense, that they didn`t have the mental capacity to know right from wrong. I agree it`s going to be a huge stretch because they hid the weapons afterwards, and that`s going to be the biggest problem.

GRACE: They went out and sat down and had pepperoni pizza. All right, Burke Strunsky, let`s talk about what the defense is really going to be -- not Parag Shah`s they have the ability to be reformed -- BS -- not Bradford Cohen`s they didn`t understand what they were doing because they went out and ordered a pepperoni pizza, OK? They knew.

Here`s what the defense is really going to be. This. They`re going to blame each other. That`s what`s going to happen, isn`t it.

BURKE STRUNSKY, SR. DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And it`s not going to be a defense because they`re still accessories. But I think what the defense attorneys are going to fight for is to keep this thing in juvenile court.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first officers on the scene could tell immediately just how violent the death of 78-year-old Barbara Olson was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a horrific and gruesome killing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) was extremely disturbing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say she was targeted by two boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 13-year-old great-grandson, Antonio Barbeau, conspiring with his 13-year-old friend, Nathan Paape.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were planning to rob her before striking her in the head with a hatchet and a hammer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My goodness, that`s insane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They continued to beat her with the hammer and the blade end of the hatchet until she died. They tried to get rid of her body but were unsuccessful, so they left it in the garage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t discovered for two days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Badly beaten, lying in a pool of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police searched the home, finding blood-spattered clothing, the victim`s gold watch, and in a nearby storm drain, the victim`s purse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They stole the car, left the car (INAUDIBLE) bowling lane and then went out and had a pizza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I don`t know about you, but I keep imagining my grandmother who helped raise me, Lucy, and to think these two 13-year-olds and there`s nothing to indicate that they would have done something like this. They are two all-American young boys. A 13-year-old great grandson and his little besty go visit grandma. She lets them in. They immediately attack her with a hatchet and some type of a hammer. As she is begging for her life, they continue to beat her.

Chief Steven Riffel is with us. His people, his men and women, worked tirelessly on this case. Coming to one of the bloodiest crime scenes they`ve ever seen with a 78-year-old grandma as the victim. Very low crime area. They are wondering what happened until attention focused on her 13- year-old great grandson.

What grandma would not open her arms up to her grandson coming in. Here`s the little boy and his little best friend now suspected of murder. Why? How did it happen? And according to our sources, grandma begged for her life.

Chief, is it true that it took both little boys to pull the murder weapon out of the grandmother`s skull?

CHIEF STEVEN RIFFEL, SHEBOYGAN FALLS POLICE: That`s the information that we were provided and that`s, I believe, the information that was in the allegations in the criminal complaint, that`s correct.

GRACE: Chief, question, which will come out. Did they give statements? Is that how we know so much?

RIFFEL: Well, like I said -- you know, I have to be careful because I don`t want to taint the investigation or I don`t want to --

GRACE: OK. You know what, I`m not going to ask you that. I`m going take it back, Chief.

RIFFEL: OK.

GRACE: Because I understand you`re between a rock and a hard spot on that one. To Dan O`Donnell joining me from WTMJ.

Dan, did they give statements? Did the two 13-year-olds, one or the other or both? Did any of them give a statement?

DAN O`DONNELL, WTMJ: Absolutely, Nancy. And Nathan Paape, who was the friend of the great grandson initially gave a statement to investigators indicating that he and his friend Antonio, did kill Antonio`s great grandmother. When presented with this confession, Antonio, the great grandson also confessed to this heinous crime.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ve got -- I`ve just been given a statement. We just got it. Nathan states Antonio told him they would go to the great grandmother`s house and kill her and get money. Nathan states he got a hammer. Antonio got a hatchet.

OK. Wendy Walsh, you`re the shrink. Weigh in.

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST AND CO-HOST OF "THE DOCTORS": Well, as you said, these kinds of homicide against parents and grandparents are extremely rare. We do know that at this age it`s one of the most violent times. I would ask questions like how much violent media have these children been consuming? Have they been involved in any kind of drug use? What is the moral teaching in the community? Are they religious people?

GRACE: Whoa, wait a minute.

(CROSSTALK)

WALSH: Morals and ethics were taught.

GRACE: Wait. Wait. Wait. What are the moral teachings? It`s too late for Sunday school and, you know, that stuns me that I would even say that. Because my children are there front and center every Sunday morning. But let me tell you something, it is too late to talk about the moral teachings in the community.

Listen to this, Wendy, moral teachings. Using the blade end of the hatchet struck her in the head. The hatchet stuck there. Both of them had to pull the hatchet loose. Nathan, who is 13 years old, states that -- they realized she was dead and tried to load her body in the car to dispose of it but they were not able to.

All right. Bradford Cohen, Parag Shah, Burke Strunsky. I appreciate Wendy Walsh and all of her new age leanings about moral teachings and blah, blah, blah, losing it. It`s getting lost in the sauce.

Try to load the grandmother`s car into the trunk but they weren`t able to. OK, Burke Strunsky, what are you going to do with that at trial in front of a jury?

BURKE STRUNSKY, SR. DEP. DISTRICT ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "THE HUMANITY OF JUSTICE: Well, I think what`s important to note here is for 13 year olds this is an incredibly sophisticated crime. The planning beforehand, the planning afterwards, buying things to dispose of fingerprints, leaving the car so that it could possibly be taken by someone else, who would be later be blamed for the crime.

To adults, educated adults, this may not seem sophisticated but I think it`d be hard to find a more sophisticated crime committed by 13-year- olds.

GRACE: Hey, Burke. Burke. Burke. It gets worse.

OK, I want to my two defense lawyers, Bradford Cohen and Parag Shah. You`re the hotshots. Take a listen to this. I want to hear your spin for the jury. All right. They then go through the house taking a purse, loose quarters, jewelry, rings, earrings, a watch. Took the car. Sped away. I`m -- I`m reading directly from a police document. They go to a bowling alley. Leave the car there. Walk to a pizza parlor. Eat pizza.

Return to the car after buying wet wipes and wipe down the car leaving it unlocked with the keys in it with the jewelry exposed hoping someone would steal the car and get blamed for the murder.

OK. Can`t see the defense lawyers. Let`s try them again. Parag Shah, Bradford Cohen. Who`s going to get this one. Let`s just throw it out to you, Bradford. What are you going to do with the wet wipes, laying out the jewelry on the back seat, hoping someone, some poor schmuck would steal the car and get blamed for the murder?

BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, obviously it`s difficult facts that they actually come into evidence. If they obtained that from their statements and their statements don`t end up coming into trial, then they`re going to have a more difficult time putting all those things together.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That is your defense that maybe somehow you conceal -- you can conceal the truth from the jury? That`s your defense? OK. You know what? I`m --

COHEN: There`s no concealing the truth. It`s the constitution. I love the Constitution.

GRACE: -- going to run a little circle around you right now.

COHEN: I don`t know about you.

GRACE: I`m hearing something. Is he still talking?

COHEN: Yes, I am.

GRACE: Forget about -- forget about the confession. I don`t need the confession. What I need is a shot of grandma`s recovered gold Buick. Because you know what I`m going to find there? I`m going to find a shot of the jewelry laid out on the backseat. I`m going to get that receipt and that video from the 7-Eleven where they bought the wet wipes and then let the jury add up two plus two equals four.

I don`t need the confession so there. All right, Parag Shah. Let`s hear it. Your defense?

PARAG SHAH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the defense would have to be that I`m going to go and flip on my other co-defendant so that I can get out of this the best I can. If I`m the one that gave the confession, then my testimony is worth it depending on what -- what the other guy is going to do.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK. Now you`re talking. Because that`s what we`re going to hear. Someone is going to flip on the other to get a better deal. That`s what this is going to boil down to.

Everyone, I want to remind you, Friday night, 8:00 Eastern, "Cold Blooded Murder." Gambling, jealousy, inside the most baffling, the most heinous crimes ever committed. Cutting-edge techniques, science combines with crime sleuthing, to uncover what makes the average man or woman cross the line to commit murder. Sometimes the answer is simple. Other times the answer is never found.

Everyone, the family album back showcasing your photos. Florida friends, Tom, Kelly, Kyle, and Cody Arnold enjoy movies and amusement parks together.

Share your photos through iReport family album at hlnTV.com/Nancygrace and click on "Nancy`s Family Album."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Back in 90 seconds. We remember Army Private First Class Dustin Gross, 19. Jefferson, Kentucky. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, National Defense Service medal, Global War on Terrorism medal. Loved weightlifting, camping, time with friends and family. Parents, Angie and Stacy, brother, Christopher.

Dustin Gross, American hero.

Back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The D.A. says they continue to beat her with a hammer and the blade end of the hatchet until she died. He tells us they tried to get rid of her body but were unsuccessful so they left it in the garage. The D.A. believes the kids left the car in the parking lot unlocked with the keys inside hoping someone would steal it and get blamed for the murder, then they walked home. Two days later a family member found the body and an investigation led to the boys` arrest. The boys are being held on a $1 million bond.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. The unthinkable. A 13-year-old grandson and his besty, his best friend, two all-American boys, now accused of the brutal murder of their great grandmother, 78-year-old Barbara Olson. Why? Over pizza money.

We now learned from the police document I`ve got in my hands that they actually then bought after enjoying pizza, courtesy of their dead great grandmother, Barbara Olson, lying on the floor with a hatchet just out of her head, they enjoyed pizza and then they go to a 7-Eleven to buy wet wipes.

Wipe down grandma`s car for prints, wipe off the keys, and leave the keys in the car with the stolen jewelry laid out on the backseat hoping someone would steal the car and get blamed for her murder.

Out to the lines, Amy in New York. Hi, Amy. What`s your question?

AMY, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering, have these kids ever been in trouble before? Was there any idea that they would ever do such a horrible thing?

GRACE: I know one of them had been in trouble before. Had somewhat of a juvie record.

What do we know, Alexis?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Don`t have that juvenile record. We can`t get to a juvenile record, of course. But he was at right after this murder on Monday. On Tuesday Barbeau was committed to a juvenile detention center. Not a secure one. He got out of the center and was, I guess, spending some time with friends and then turned himself back into the center, Nancy.

GRACE: Stop. Stop. Stop. Alexis, did I just hear you say that after the murder of the grandmother, one of them got out of juvie?

WEED: Actually after the murder he was sent to juvie and then got out after that. Then turned himself back in, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, Chief. Chief Riffel, please help me. How could someone accused of bludgeoning the grandmother to death with a hatchet get out of juvenile detention?

RIFFEL: Well, I`d say that`s probably not as accurate as the information that you have. I believe there is some indication obviously you have to be careful because Mr. Barbeau -- you know, is a juvenile that`s not to be released as information with that. But he was in secure detention when we began investigating the homicide and he never was released after that when we made the arrest and requested charges to the district attorney`s office.

So as far as him being released after the murder, that`s not exactly correct. He actually -- we believe he actually committed the murder and then had been placed in juvenile detention facility.

GRACE: OK, I`m glad to know that, Chief Riffel, that you can`t bludgeon a grandma to death and then walk free to enjoy time with friends.

To T.J. Ward, private investigator, Investigative Consultants International, joining me. What evidence would you be looking for? Because, T.J., when the police rightfully executed a search warrant, they discovered quarters and a gold watch with blood spatter clothing including jeans, shoes and a T-shirt all located in one of the boy`s homes. What else would we look for, T.J.? What do we need at trial?

T.J. WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, the DNA and the fingerprints, Nancy, and to lead back and try to find any fingerprints on the murder weapons and to tie all this in and the witnesses that were in fact gave the police information about the car leaving and squealing and so on and so forth.

GRACE: To Alexis Weed, I`m still going through all the police documents. But in the Buick they stole from grandma, there was a handmade crocheted throw blanket. You know she probably made that, right?

WEED: Probably.

GRACE: Little did she know it would be found one day by police with bits of human flesh on it.

WEED: Yes. Yes. That`s right. That was found in the car as was, as you said before the jewelry. Also, Nancy, in the juvenile detention center Barbeau`s locker was searched and in that locker was found some blood spattered shoes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s still unclear why Barbeau targeted his great grandmother who wasn`t discovered for two days. After police found the abandoned car, evidence including a school paper with the name Nate on it helped them lead to the arrests.

Police searched the home finding blood spattered clothing, the victim`s gold watch, and in a nearby storm drain Olson`s purse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s the unthinkable. A 13-year-old great grandson and his little friend visit grandma. Not just for a visit. But to bludgeon her to death, steal money and jewelry. Now good police work found her purse, her pocketbook thrown down a drain pipe. Good police work required a search warrant to search a locker. And in one of those lockers found blood spattered clothing belonging to one of the 13-year-olds.

You know, it`s extremely rare although I`ve rattled off a couple of other juvenile murders, extremely rare, Paul Westcott, joining me from "The Wave," and WGIR, what is the family`s response to their children being charged in the brutal murder of the grandmother?

PAUL WESTCOTT, HOST, "THE WAVE", WGIR: Well, the only response so far, what we`ve heard from family and friends and neighbors, the fact that Olson was a great lady. She`ll be fondly remembered. But just shocked and stunned them. These 13-year-olds, as has been said throughout the show, it has been completely shocking that these two who have very little background and records in this kind of crime would be picked up for this.

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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: From a 13-year-old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not somebody who could do something so horrific.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Nathan Paape and his friend Antonio Barbeau are charged with killing Barbeau`s great grandmother.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Seventy-eight-year-old Barbara Olson.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say they were planning to rob her before striking her in the head with a hatchet and a hammer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stole her car. Went to a local bowling lane.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The kids left the car in the parking lot, unlocked, with the keys inside hoping someone would steal it and get blamed for the murder.

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GRACE: Let me see Wendy Walsh and Dan O`Connell, and Alexis Weed, please. I want to go out to you, Dan and Alexis. First to you, Dan. We heard Wendy Walsh, PhD, psychologist out of L.A. and some type of new age yammering about moral teachings. No offense. It`s a little late to be talking about moral teachings now, Dan O`Donnell.

What do we know, if anything, about their family? These 13-year-olds accused of bludgeoning the grandmother to death.

O`DONNELL: Well, we`ve got a chance to hear from neighbors of both of the two young defendants and they say they were typical, normal kids. That they got into a little trouble at school, talking back to teachers, maybe swearing in the classroom, and as has been discussed a couple of minutes ago, that Antonio was in a juvenile detention center the day after the murder. But nothing that would suggest to anybody close to these families that these boys would be capable of this type of murder.

GRACE: You know, Alexis, I don`t want to believe it. And usually I accept cold hard evidence and move forward. But it`s really hard to take in a 13-year-old boy allowing this to happen. Not only allowing it to happen, to be an active participant in murdering, beating his great grandmother to death while she begs for her life.

What do we know about his family? I keep hearing the neighbors say this, the neighbors say that. What about the family?

WEED: Well, I hate to say it, but there`s another neighbor, Nancy, but this one is a classmate. Another 13-year-old who`s quoted in some of the local articles. And she said that Barbeau was in a pretty severe car accident when he was in fifth grade. And she, I guess, was just speculating at this point, but she said that he was never, ever the same after that car accident.

GRACE: Well, there you have it. The defense lawyers smell chum in the water. All right. So he was in a car accident and that`s going to end up being the defense. After this Peter`s out. And they can`t really blame each other since they each wielded the weapons.

All I know is this, 78-year-old Barbara Olson is dead allegedly at the hands of her own great grandson and his best bud.

Everybody, "DR. DREW" up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

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