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Mom Finds Daughter`s Body; Sandusky Blames His Victims
Aired October 9, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Outrage. Convicted pedophile Jerry Sandusky will be locked up for decades. He`s blaming his victims.
JERRY SANDUSKY, CONVICTED PEDOPHILE: A young man who is dramatic, a veteran accuser and always sought attention started everything.
PINSKY: Plus, a teacher admits to having sex with student and leaves court holding the kid`s hand.
And what does Casey Anthony want now?
But, first, mental illness takes a toll in the most awful of ways.
CRAIG LOMAX, DAUGHTER COMMITTED SUICIDE: Our pain right now is great because our love is great.
PINSKY: A father and mother find their missing daughter hanging from a tree.
Mental illness can play out publicly, say, with Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan, Lark Voorhies. We`ll reveal the private pain of those who fight and sometimes lose the battle with psychiatric illness.
MARIANNE LOMAX, FOUND DAUGHTER BODY AFTER SUICIDE: And then I saw my daughter. I looked for two seconds and I knew that was her. And I ran out screaming.
PINSKY: Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK. Linnea`s parents say the daughter they knew would never commit suicide. They blame her mental illness for literally taking her life and annihilating the girl they knew.
Well, Linnea`s mom is actually the one who found her missing daughter just over a month ago.
She -- Marianne, it`s hard for me to invoke the images you must have seen. How exactly did you see? How did you find her? What happened?
M. LOMAX: I was on the Marc Klaas Foundation came out. This was the second search we did with them. We were walking and our search area and were walking down a couple of trails. We were realizing we were outside of our search area, so we should probably, you know, go up to the tree over there and have a little talk and make sure that we were in the right spot and re-evaluate.
But I was standing by the trail there and there was a tree that was very overgrown into my trail where I was at. And then there was big rocks. They were more like, in the rocks, you start walking on the round rocks and that you fall on. So I would --
PINSKY: What made you go into that brush? I mean, it was a blocked trail. You persevered, went in there.
M. LOMAX: Right. That week, I prayed and I asked God to show me where she was or for her to bring her to me. I prayed a lot that week.
And I was standing in the brush and there was lots of different kinds of brush. We were smelling something strange. And we were -- we had a team of five and close friends with me. And I was smelling something -- I was smelling this, some are smelling that. I was, was not this or not that.
And they said we should go to the tree and re-evaluate, you know, my leader. And I said, well, I really want to go and check this area out. So I start going down those little rocks. They were hard to go down. Then I get down to the tree. I had to get on my knees to crawl through it -- because I could see the river.
As I saw the river, I saw there was a little eddy. So, I walked up to the eddy and I stood up and said, OK, this is pretty. And I glanced up to the tree, just quickly. And I`m like, what is that? And I looked again, and I go -- that`s my daughter.
And that was very, very awful. I ran out of there screaming, and asked for our leader to come there. And I stopped my friends from coming down there.
PINSKY: Did you have an instinct to cut her down or anything?
M. LOMAX: No, no. I didn`t want to see more. I didn`t see her face, and I`m thankful for that.
But what I saw was not pretty. But I went straight on her, and it was amazing that I was right there.
PINSKY: How -- let`s go back to how this all started. How long had she been missing? Was she hospitalized around this time?
M. LOMAX: She was at U.C.-Davis. It was finals week.
She`s had different difficulties during the last quarter. She had some injuries she was working with. She had some work problems.
PINSKY: But was she -- did she have a history of depression? Is that what we`re dealing with here?
M. LOMAX: I wouldn`t say so.
PINSKY: She has no history of depression? Craig --
C. LOMAX: No one would say that about her.
M. LOMAX: No, very happy.
PINSKY: Then all of a sudden she became depressed? She was not hospitalized in psychiatric care.
M. LOMAX: She was hospitalized.
PINSKY: She was.
M. LOMAX: For 10 days, right after she came out of college, we helped her, you know, get out of the last class. She came in and we took her to a psychologist -- or a normal doctor and then the psychologist and then they recommended we take her to the Cedar Centre.
PINSKY: So, let me see if I get this right. She was severely depressed out of nowhere which can happen -- so much so that the psychiatrist and psychologist felt she need to be hospitalized immediately.
M. LOMAX: They recommended it.
PINSKY: They recommended hospitalization. That`s reserve for people -- and insurance paid for this? Insurance only pays for hospitalization if somebody`s in imminent danger. So, she must have been having suicidal ideations already.
M. LOMAX: Yes.
C. LOMAX: Yes.
C. LOMAX: Although she voluntarily signed in when she talked to the admission nurse, the admission nurse said, if you don`t sign in --
PINSKY: We`re going to put you on a hold.
C. LOMAX: We`re going to put you on a hold.
PINSKY: And then -- did she leave prematurely? Did the system fail her? I mean, how does this tragedy happened?
C. LOMAX: Well, you know, I think this whole story from its very beginning even from the parental roles, all the way to its end after two months of searching raises a lot of questions about mental health and about a poor performance of our systems, both in the medical care world and law enforcement world and --
PINSKY: How long was she missing for?
C. LOMAX: She was missing for ten weeks.
PINSKY: Ten weeks. That`s over two months.
C. LOMAX: Yes.
PINSKY: And was there any hint about why she was on the lam like that? I mean, what had happened to her? Did she threaten anything or --
M. LOMAX: No.
C. LOMAX: Yes. She had just -- you know, I`m not sure where we`re at in the story because we`re jumping. But she had just finished 10 days --
PINSKY: In the hospital.
C. LOMAX: -- in the hospital. And there was pressure to -- on the doctors to have her released.
PINSKY: So, she was on a voluntary basis at that point?
C. LOMAX: You`d have to -- I`m not sure.
PINSKY: OK, we don`t know.
C. LOMAX: I think in order for -- she entered as a voluntary basis. I think she tried to escape.
PINSKY: This show is about outrage. Here`s what I`m outraged about. I know exactly the pressure those doctors were under.
They`re like, get her out, get her out, get her out. She didn`t want to kill herself today, get her out. And, oh, by the way, if something happens to her, the insurance will then say, we don`t practice medicine. That`s Dr. Pinsky`s signature. We don`t practice medicine.
And yet they`re cutting off the fund that she needed to stay well.
C. LOMAX: So the next day after she gets -- she was assigned to -- she was prescribed with medication and therapy. So we took her home. The next day, she was supposed to go to an outpatient therapy where she`d go and be at this facility.
PINSKY: An intensive outpatient program. She went from inpatient to intensive outpatient.
C. LOMAX: Correct.
PINSKY: And she didn`t go?
C. LOMAX: No, we took her. We both took her about an hour from our home to this facility. We left her in the morning and we said, OK, we`ll be back to pick you up. She was very nervous about failing that. She felt like if she failed this outpatient program that they were going to come after her and they were going to throw her back in the hospital.
PINSKY: A little paranoid. I mean, this is --
C. LOMAX: Delusional paranoid, yes.
PINSKY: Delusional. Definitely.
This is hard even to imagine going through. How are you so calm telling this story?
C. LOMAX: For myself, I think I`m in a unique state where I spent ten weeks having to pretend to be a detective and those kinds of things to try to find my daughter. And we were looking a lot of dark places. It was a very hard time. And so, I`ve kind of disconnected myself.
PINSKY: You felt disconnected.
You don`t seem so disconnected.
M. LOMAX: No. I spent from day one I was -- Craig was more at the headquarters. We started our own headquarters and we were out on the streets. I did a lot of biking and I did a lot of hiking. But we were more looking for someone that was alive. We had 300 tips --
PINSKY: That she was alive.
M. LOMAX: That she was around somewhere. So my first thought was they were not true.
C. LOMAX: They weren`t true. They are not being true.
M. LOMAX: They were not true. They were not true.
PINSKY: So wait. When you heard tips you were resigned of her being --
M. LOMAX: Alive.
PINSKY: -- alive. You felt the whole time she was alive?
M. LOMAX: Yes.
PINSKY: The whole time.
M. LOMAX: So it was a big shock for me to find her because I thought she was alive.
PINSKY: Did -- I just can`t imagine going through that. It just sounds --
M. LOMAX: No, it was terrible. And ten weeks not knowing where she was and thinking of all the --
PINSKY: It`s like torture.
M. LOMAX: Yes. That`s exactly what it is. Yes. Then not knowing where she was. And you think about all these dark alleys where she could be.
C. LOMAX: You know, I think every parent experiences that moment when you`re in the store or at the park and your toddler disappears --
PINSKY: Yes. You freak.
C. LOMAX: -- and you freak and you start calling them and gradually in the next two or three or four minutes you get into an awful state.
C. LOMAX: Weeks into that, that`s still how we felt about the situation. It wasn`t as strong, but that same feeling was a constant feeling.
PINSKY: And what is it we figured happened to her? Did she go out that day and do this?
C. LOMAX: That`s the way it appears. Yes, it appears --
PINSKY: Ten weeks prior --
C. LOMAX: The coroner said that she probably did this very close to the time that she went missing. And we found a notebook of hers that would align with her being in this location. It was about a half a mile from --
PINSKY: So she planned this.
C. LOMAX: She was about a half mile from where she originally went missing. I don`t know if she planned it or not.
PINSKY: And one of the questions we want to get into after the break is can we as parents with adult children intervene further if our instincts are that they need to be more intervention.
I mean, during the intro of this piece, I was talking about Britney spears and other people. Britney Spears is alive because her parents put her on a conservatorship, which she is still on, and they were able to mandate care that Britney didn`t want.
OK. Give us a call on this topic, 855-373-7395.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINNEA LOMAX: This week I went backpacking. It was really, really fun. I`ve never been backpacking before. But I went and I guided them and they lived.
So I`m thinking I can do it a few more times. So, if you want to come again, I think you definitely should because it`s really, really fun. So come. I don`t know you, but I want to, in a non-creepy way. Awesome. Bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s just heartbreaking.
Nineteen-year-old Linnea Lomax missing 10 weeks when her mom Marianne found her body. Linnea had killed herself.
Marc Klaas helped the family search for her, back when she was missing for those 10 weeks.
Marc, describe what you saw the Lomaxes go through every time there was a lead and then a let down.
MARC KLAAS, SEARCHED FOR MISSING 19-YEAR-OLD: Drew, we spoke many times before Klaas Kids really got involved. I was trying to -- I was trying to counsel the family as best I could and put them on the path where we thought they should be going -- which was doing a physical search. That took a number of weeks.
We did finally go up there. I think on the very third day of the search, we were able to locate Linnea`s backpack. It was obvious the pain the parents were in. It`s something that unfortunately I see on a regular basis whenever we get involved with one of these cases.
You start out with an enormous amount of hope and it just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks, until you`re almost walking a tight rope of hope. Ultimately, what happened -- and this is why I counsel against parents going out on searches and why I personally didn`t go out on a search myself.
Ultimately, Marianne would not be denied. She had to go out. She had to look for her daughter. And the worst possible scenario -- the first possible scenario happened. She is the one who found her own daughter. And I just wish that I could take that back and have it be somebody else.
PINSKY: And yet, Marianne, you prayed to find her.
M. LOMAX: Yes, I did.
PINSKY: In one way or the other.
M. LOMAX: Yes, the whole week.
PINSKY: So --
M. LOMAX: And I got right on her. So I believe that is an answer to the prayer.
PINSKY: Is there something to blame here for this?
C. LOMAX: For what?
PINSKY: For what happened to your daughter. This show today is about outrage. It`s easy for me to get outraged at the insurance company. Maybe the doctors knew something but couldn`t convince the insurance companies. Maybe your daughter hid the fact she was depressed, was embarrassed about it.
C. LOMAX: I think, Doctor, that there are a lot of really big questions that need to be asked. And Linnea`s story is screaming them. When you take a brilliant, well-rounded, healthy U.C.-Davis student and within a few weeks put them missing out on the streets and now we know dead to suicide, and you have parents that -- or at least a mom -- and I`d like to think that I`m almost as good a parent as she is -- who would do anything for their kid.
I mean, we -- that`s what we spent the last 19 years doing. So -- and the picture of her crawling through that brush is -- and insisting on being out there and pushing it is the picture of the kind of parents that we`re supporting and would do anything for her.
PINSKY: Would go to any lengths.
C. LOMAX: So, when you take someone who suddenly turns mentally ill, but has the parental support --
PINSKY: Family support, yes.
C. LOMAX: And yet it still ends up the way it did, you wonder.
C. LOMAX: If this happened years of problems going back and forth, then maybe we wouldn`t have so many big questions. But just a few weeks --
PINSKY: And I understand you had a sense of something had taken over her mind. Her very sense was very altered by her illness.
C. LOMAX: Yes.
PINSKY: And you mom, you`re saying vigorously yes.
M. LOMAX: Yes, she wasn`t herself.
PINSKY: Did she get a proper medical evaluation. Sometimes medical problems can cause severe depression. Did anybody do that?
C. LOMAX: Yes. When we took her -- when we finally got her from campus, the next day, our physician made arrangements for her. And he saw her and did blood tests on her.
PINSKY: Was she having trouble at school already? Is that how you were tipped off something was wrong?
C. LOMAX: We went to visit her the week before her finals on her birthday. And we knew that she wasn`t doing well and she was under a lot of stress. She had lost about 10 pounds in late May.
C. LOMAX: But on June 8th, on her birthday, we went to see her and she had lost another 10 pounds.
PINSKY: You knew something was very wrong.
C. LOMAX: And her lip was split open in a few places from not eating and drinking. She was doing nothing but studying. And she was surprising us with information that we had a hard time believing like she wasn`t trying hard and that she wasn`t trying hard, and that she was a lazy student and that she was failing her classes. And things later we found out none of that was true.
PINSKY: And let`s -- all for people at home, 18 to 20 is a very common -- that freshman year of college, is a common time for mental illness to come on. And most schools are well aware of this and armed to deal with that.
But, as parents, we got to be on top of that. That is a common time, 18 to 20, 18 to 22. But freshman year of college, big year for this kind of stuff to precipitate.
More and your calls, next.
PINSKY: I`m joined now by Keris Myrick. She became a mental health advocate because she herself battled schizophrenia since childhood.
Keris, you still here voices and you`re listening to this story about what this family`s had to go through. What`s your assessment and what your story had been like?
KERIS MYRICK, MENTAL HEALTH ADVOCATE: Well, first of all, I`d like to thank you for having me on this show and also to express my condolences to the family. It`s quite a tragedy what`s happened. And we hear these kind of stories quite often.
But we also hear stories of recovery, which is -- you know, I`m lucky to be here even though I went through something quite similar. You know, having some troubles -- my first year in college, hearing voices and gaining a lot of weight. I actually gained weight rather than lost weight which is, again, a sign that something is wrong when eating patterns change in a person and they can gain or lose weight.
PINSKY: And, Keris, how is it that yours worked out OK? We`re trying to give people at home something to watch out for if somebody they love has mental illness. How to make sure they get proper care. What`s your sense of that?
MYRICK: So I think definitely I had a very supportive family. My mother and father were incredibly supportive. And always had told me which was always in the back of my mind no matter what that I could achieve no matter what got in my way.
And even though I wasn`t disclosing things to them because of the stigma related to mental illness, especially when you`re hearing voices and having hallucinations, I was able to engage in some of the treatment that was recommended to me. I also was able to find things that connected me back to my things that I really enjoyed in life. When I was identified to me and it was very clear to me that I wasn`t doing things I enjoyed like work, reading, going to school. All of those things I wasn`t doing, that`s when I said, wow. This has got to change.
PINSKY: Let`s quickly talk to Kim in California. I`m short on time here, Keris.
Kim, go ahead. Kim in California?
KIM, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Yes, Dr. Drew. My heart goes out to the parents on your program this evening.
I`ve got a 16-year-old daughter who`s been diagnosed with bipolar, spent time in a mental facility for teens. And I got her in E.D. program at school. I don`t know where else to turn to.
PINSKY: Kim, in a way -- I hate to say this -- it`s painful to have a teenager with mental illness, but in a way you still have some control, I`d say, because you can mandate the treatment. You had a 19-year-old. It`s an adult now. You can`t mandate it even if your most powerful instincts are it`s wrong. It`s a 19-year-old.
C. LOMAX: That`s right. And it`s strange to see how all these rights and laws that are good to protect us as individuals, when you have someone who`s mentally ill and can`t make good decisions, now those rights --
PINSKY: Protect the illness, not the individual.
C. LOMAX: Exactly, their ability to overpower the individual.
PINSKY: Kim, your daughter is suicidal, is that right?
KIM: Yes, has been. She`s in an E.D., emotionally disturbed class.
KIM: The problem is the school district has, I believe, failed as far as the counseling provided under the IDEA Act. The county mental health agency gets them in and gets them out.
PINSKY: Kim, I -- just learn one thing from the story. If somebody is having suicidal ideation, get them back to the structured system again. Get them into treatment. No suicidal ideation should be taken casually, get that to a professional.
I`m out of time, guys. I appreciate you coming and telling your story.
Do you quickly want to say something to Marc Klaas? Very quick.
C. LOMAX: You know, Marc, thank you for saving us potentially years of mystery and not knowing. You know, Marc runs a first class act and Klaas Kids doesn`t charge anything. It`s terrible news, but it`s better than not knowing for the rest of our lives, which is what we might have been up against.
PINSKY: Thank you, Marc. Thank you, Craig. Thank you, Keris. Thank you, Marianne, the Lomaxes.
Next up, a judge sends a convicted pedophile Jerry Sandusky to prison for 30 years. But Sandusky blames the victims, insisting he`s not guilty.
What do you think of that? Call us now 855-DRDREW5.
And later, more about Casey Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Outrage. Convicted pedophile Jerry Sandusky will be locked up for decades. He`s blaming his victims.
SANDUSKY: A young man who`s a dramatic veteran accuser and always sought attention started everything.
PINSKY: Plus, a teacher admits to having sex with student and leaves court holding the kid`s hand.
And what does Casey Anthony want now?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): But, first, we`re getting to Jerry Sandusky. His victims fought back today with impact statements that rocked the courtroom. According to reports, victim number six read a statement that said in part, quote, "That night, you told me you were the tickle monster so you could touch my 11-year-old body. I realize just how much you had manipulated me."
Joining me, criminal defense attorney, Mark Geragos, Attorney Lisa Bloom, author of "Swagger," New York Time best-selling book. All right, Lisa, tickle monster. What do you -- how do you react to that?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, it is chilling. And it`s pretty typical of child molesters, right? This is how they groom their victims. It`s all a joke. It`s all fun. Just any excuse to be able to touch the body of a child, and it goes from there.
PINSKY: Mark, could it have stopped there? Is it possible he was just going to shower -- just tickling kids?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jerry Sandusky, I`m not sure of, but could it stop with somebody else? Could an uncle with a niece or a nephew, yes. But it certainly seems in this case that they had quite a few strikes against them at least from a defense standpoint.
PINSKY: And Lisa you`ve told me that -- here we have one guy who`s caught. One child abuser. Let`s just call it that. He`s convicted of that. There are maybe millions more out there. And you say, the system doesn`t serve it very well.
BLOOM: Well, I`m shocked he got the lower end of the sentencing range. He got only 30 to 60 years. He was convicted of 45 counts. He`s a serial predator. You mean to tell me that only about one year, roughly one year per child rape, that`s appropriate in our system? Now, you can say --
GERAGOS: -- exact the opposite, I`ll tell you why, because I think the judge today said something that was interesting. And I like this judge with the exception of kind of this rocket docket getting into trial. But he said, you know, if you start talking hundreds of years or whatever centuries, it has no impact.
But you talk about somebody who`s 68 who knows, hey, do I have ten years, do I have 15 years? And I say minimum of 30 before you get parole, that has an impact.
BLOOM: You know what, it does have an impact, and I`ll tell you why. First of all, there`s a practical, legal reason parts of this case could be reversed on appeal. We want to be sure he goes to prison for the rest of his life, not 10 years, not 20 years. We want him to die in prison. Secondly --
GERAGOS: Can I tell you something? There --
GERAGOS: -- had not been born who`s going to reverse just parts of this and that he`s going to walk out.
BLOOM: But why not give him the top of the sentence and send a message to serial predators out there?
GERAGOS: I really think that the judge has it right there. Make it meaningful so that you can understand it. That`s what he said. He said I`m not going to give you --
BLOOM: Why do we care if he understands it? What about justice for the victims? What about the ten boys because they get molesting (ph) and probably hundreds of others that he victimized.
GERAGOS: Well, actually, three of them walked out and said they thought it was appropriate sentence. So, they reported (ph) on the court house steps today saying, we think it was an appropriate sentence.
BLOOM: But you and I are attorneys, and we know that people are sometimes sentenced to hundreds of years behind bars.
GERAGOS: Right. I always say I don`t understand, frankly, when you get convicted of a crime like this, why somebody goes out and doesn`t give the judge the one arm salute, because it makes no sense he`s not going to do anything. He`s going to give you --
BLOOM: So, that is essentially what he did today, frankly, by saying -- Sandusky saying --
BLOOM: -- I`m the victim. Boohoo. Right?
PINSKY: Let`s go to callers. Theresa in Georgia -- Theresa.
THERESA, GEORGIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Theresa.
THERESA: I think that Sandusky`s had enough attention, and I think that he should have received 60 to 120 years.
BLOOM: Thank you.
PINSKY: And that, Mark, is that true that would have increased the probability that on appeal he would be less likely to get away?
GERAGOS: I don`t think that`s true. I think that the fellow judges are going to just look at. The only issue that I think is getting traction in this case, did they have enough time to prepare? And that isn`t going to be effected by whether he got 30 to 60 or whether he got 60 to 120. That just doesn`t matter.
I think this judge seriously thought the only way he was going to make an impact, get through the kind of skull of Sandusky is to tell him, you now contemplate. You`re not even eligible for parole until you`re 98. You`re not going to live for 98.
BLOOM: But this isn`t just about Sandusky, and this isn`t about what he understands or getting aside (ph) his head. This is about justice for his victims. This is about sending the message to all those serial child rapists out there --
GERAGOS: -- you`re complaining, but they weren`t complaining.
BLOOM: Well, I am complaining. Yes. I am complaining --
BLOOM: Well, I don`t know how the other seven victims feel in this case.
GERAGOS: At least three of them came out.
BLOOM: I know that the prosecutors wanted the maximum, and they didn`t --
GERAGOS: The prosecutors came out also --
BLOOM: If Sandusky doesn`t get the maximum, who does?
GERAGOS: Prosecutors also came out and said that they were pleased with the sentence. They were happy with the sentence.
BLOOM: Yes, because they don`t want to offend the judge. But you know what, I don`t practice in Pennsylvania.
GERAGOS: I don`t practice --
GERAGOS: Right. I don`t either.
BLOOM: I can speak my mind.
PINSKY: Delvia in California. Delvia, what do you got?
DELVIA, CALIFORNIA: Hi. I`m a survivor of many types of abuse.
PINSKY: Did you feel any satisfaction with the sentencing today?
DELVIA: No. He got a slap on the wrist, basically, because he`s an old man.
PINSKY: Did you ever -- oh, that`s interesting. Did you ever try to face down your abusers? Was there any legal action taken?
DELVIA: Yes. My family basically told me I was a liar. My mother was a liar. And I have basically disowned them. I disowned them many years ago, and I keep in touch with ten relatives. That`s it.
PINSKY: This is a common thing.
BLOOM: And this is basically what Sandusky said in court today that they`re all liars, right? I mean, how dare he?
GERAGOS: -- to the listener or the caller, 30 to 60 is a slap on the wrist? What`s a slug in the face?
BLOOM: This is 45 counts he`s convicted of.
GERAGOS: What difference does it make? He`s never getting out. He`s never getting out.
GERAGOS: It makes no difference. He`s going to die in prison.
BLOOM: What do you mean it makes no difference if somebody repeats --
BLOOM: You think there`s no difference between one rape and 45 rapes of little boys?
GERAGOS: No. But I think to say, 30 to 60 years is a slap on the wrist for somebody who`s 68 is --
PINSKY: I think I need like a bell like, you know, in a fight ring. Ding, ding, ding, ding. OK. Here we go.
Next up, a female teacher pleads guilty to sexual misconduct with the student and then she leaves the courtroom hand-in-hand with that student. Is she thumbing her nose at the system like Sandusky, and perhaps, has (ph) today? Call us now 855-373-7395. There they are. That`s the lovely couple leaving court after she was -- she pleaded guilty -- we`ll find out about that after the break.
PINSKY: We just had a very heated conversation in this room during the commercial break. And someone in our staff who has, herself, been a victim pointed out that she wanted to be sure that people don`t feel diminished by this Sandusky case and that people who are victims are able still to speak out.
But more importantly, if anyone out there has a hint or an instinct that something inappropriate is going on that you don`t hold back. And Lisa, you wanted to say something about the administrators who did hold back.
BLOOM: Well, this needs to be the beginning, not the end of the Sandusky story, because we know that university administrators saw things and they fail to act. In fact, they actively covered up. That was the free report, a lengthy report castigating this university.
So, there need to be more criminal charges for endangering children, for negligence, for turning a blind eye, for perjury. Some of that is pending, but I`d like to see a lot more for all the adults who knew something was going on, something wrong, and fail to act --
PINSKY: And Mark, I think you would agree with that, but is there --
GERAGOS: Oh, yes because more criminal charges is more criminal defense lawyers work -- criminal lawyers full defense act.
PINSKY: Fantastic. But do you have -- every time we bring this topic up or Lisa just mentioned, I get concerned that college campuses have a certain insulated sense of being an ivory tower that handles their own business.
GERAGOS: Parents of college aged kids, we like that.
BLOOM: No, we don`t. We like football being so important that child molestation is covered up, and that`s what happened here.
GERAGOS: Insulation is one thing. A criminal cover-up is the other. I don`t mind an insulated environment so that they feel safe when it`s an insulated environment so that it becomes toxic, that`s a different issue.
PINSKY: I mean, people need to understand their obligations. Their obligations. It`s pretty clear cut.
BLOOM: And that protecting children is the number one obligation. It`s certainly more important than football.
PINSKY: And, let`s remind our self, in a rural Colorado --
GERAGOS: Well, there would be a lot of people who might disagree with you.
PINSKY: In rural Colorado, they seemed to be following appropriate policy. It even then thinks didn`t go so well. So, there`s a lot of conversation --
BLOOM: There`s a long way to go when we`re talking about --
GERAGOS: That psychiatrist I thought did everything she could but ring a bell and nobody did anything.
PINSKY: Correct. I agree with you, but she was doing the right thing.
GERAGOS: She did, but somebody dropped the ball.
PINSKY: Somebody got a way of it actively, I think. We`ll find out about that when that thing goes to court. Listen. Would you please put up that business I just had up there a second ago, because I want to talk about this case. There we go.
Her name is Sarah Jones. She`s a former NFL cheerleader and a teacher who admitted to a judge that she had sex with a teenage student. And get this, when she -- there she is -- when she left the courtroom, there she is now hand in hand with her teen compatriot.
GERAGOS: Can I tell you something, you just talked about -- I think it was Lisa saying, diminishing the victim.
GERAGOS: This case diminishes the victim. This is every male`s dream. And I`ve defended these cases with the 17-year-olds with the older women. There is nothing of the predatory nature in this relationship that compares to some of the other cases we have. To call this or put this in the same --
BLOOM: Well, you`re just completely wrong from the point of view of law and the point of view of human behavior. Let me tell you why, OK?
GERAGOS: Tell me.
BLOOM: Because this woman was a teacher, and this was a 17-year-old minor.
GERAGOS: And I`ll bet you she was teaching him everything he wanted to know. There isn`t a male in America -- this is not a crime. This is a fantasy.
BLOOM: A lot of male victims of child sexual abuse would disagree with you.
BLOOM: -- is that, sometimes, we think that boys can`t really be harmed when they`re sexually abuse. The guys are so tough. And I`ve represented a lot of male victims.
BLOOM: And I`m here to tell you, it does harm them.
GERAGOS: I want you to tell me, show me -- have a show tomorrow and bring in all of Lisa`s 17-year-old boys who were molested by an NFL cheerleader who were victims. I want that show.
BLOOM: Who was a teacher.
BLOOM: She is the adult in this relationship. Do you want your son to go to school where the female teacher can have sex with him? You think that`s appropriate for your son?
GERAGOS: For Jake`s sense, I`m not going to answer that.
BLOOM: Aha! I would just like this moment recorded in history where Mark Geragos had no response.
PINSKY: I will say this one thing is that if you look at 15-year-olds or 16-year-olds who are in that situation with their teachers, males, the outcomes are bad. In terms of personality function --
BLOOM: That`s right.
BLOOM: You know what, he`s not an adult. She is. She had the responsibility.
GERAGOS: But you want to know something, in several states, it`s not illegal.
PINSKY: It`s a misappropriation for the responsibility --
BLOOM: She`s a teacher. She`s not just an adult. She`s a teacher.
PINSKY: It violates boundaries. Mark, I`m glad I knew you in high school.
PINSKY: Because I know this kind of thing didn`t happen back then.
GERAGOS: We wished it did, but remember the Van Halen videos?
PINSKY: All right. Let`s go to Louise in Indiana. Louise, you got a comment?
LOUISE, INDIANA: Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Oh, I`m sorry. We`re out of time. Hang on, Louise. I got to go to break. We`ll get you after the break. More with Lisa Bloom, Mark Geragos, and court cases in the headlines. Stay with us.
PINSKY: All right. We interrupted Louise for that break. Louise in Indiana, go right ahead.
LOUISE: Hey, Dr. Drew.
LOUISE: Here`s my question. I mean, it`s sort of a common thread with these three stories. What is your take on the state of just mental health in general in this country? We have people harming themselves, we have people harming numerous other people, children. I mean, the arrogance, the lack of accountability, the desperate parents in the case of the little girl at the beginning.
PINSKY: Yes. Louise, you`re asking a massive question. I think the best I can do to answer it in a few seconds is to say that we`ve come through a period of spectacular abuse upon children. It`s been unbelievable, particularly, sexual abuse of young children, boundary violations.
This is why Lisa and I were upset about Mark`s position with this teacher is that teacher is at a position of authority, and she`s missed appropriate in that authority. When doctors abuse patients, teachers misappropriate their power. It just isn`t good for the young people. Big people take care of young people.
And we sort of violated that sacred trust about the last 30 years. Not everybody, but there`s been a pandemic of that in families, pandemic of that out in the world. And so, people like me that work in mental health, we`re dealing with trauma all the time.
BLOOM: But also as it is, more people are speaking out and good for them.
PINSKY: Yes. It`s starting to change. Absolutely.
BLOOM: -- especially male. And that`s why support -- not to denigrate, especially male victims and say, well, you know, they`re not really harmed. It doesn`t really matter, because male victims are harmed just as much as female victims.
And that`s where I think is underlined the Sandusky light verdict the fact that the victims are all male and sort of the flipping attitude about the teacher who had a sexual relationship.
PINSKY: Yesterday, you had almost went down the path and said what if it`d been a girl had showered with Sandusky. We would have -- our minds would have blown. Our heads would have exploded.
GERAGOS: But the same thing happens all the time in every criminal courtroom in America.
PINSKY: What happens?
GERAGOS: There is a dual standard.
PINSKY: For boys and girls?
GERAGOS: Yes. For boys and girls as who is the victim. I mean, that`s the -- who`s complaining witness. It`s just the reality of it.
PINSKY: Speaking of courtrooms, ill-serving the society, Casey Anthony`s back in the news. Casey doesn`t want to pay Zenaida Gonzalez anything if she loses the defamation case against this woman who claims she, Zenaida, is not "Zani the Nanny."
All right. Mark, Casey knows Caylee is dead, but tells everyone "Zani the Nanny" was her babysitter. Does Casey owe Zenaida Gonzalez something?
GERAGOS: No. This case is ridiculous. I don`t even think it gets to trial. This judge has given every indication that he`s excluded everything except a statement between her and her mother. Other than that -- that the mother then republishes which is the legal definition or predicate for the cause of action. I don`t think this case gets anywhere.
BLOOM: Look, how many Zenaida Gonzalezs are there in that part of Florida? Gonzales is a common name. Zenaida is unusual. And she said, this is the woman who took off with my daughter. I`m sure there are people out there who think this woman is a murderer, and Casey making up a story to harm this woman. Why shouldn`t she have to pay her?
GERAGOS: Do you think there`s anybody who thinks Zenaida Gonzales is a murderer?
GERAGOS: -- there isn`t anybody that I know in America that thinks Casey Anthony is innocent. So --
BLOOM: You know, what if people were saying Mark Geragos took off with my child, murdered my child. You know, there are people who would believe it. You know, that`s why we have laws against defamation.
GERAGOS: Right. But that`s not what happened in this case. I mean, she told the mother in a conversation, the mother republishes it --
BLOOM: She told it to the police. Told the police, Zenaida Gonzales, Zani the Nanny.
GERAGOS: Well, you`ve got -- you know that as well as I do, you`ve got immunities for that.
PINSKY: Let`s take a quick call. Kathy in Virginia -- Kathy.
KATHY, VIRGINIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
KATHY: Hi. Yes. You were discussing the Casey Anthony and, you know, where she suffered through all of -- you know, she doesn`t owe Zenaida Gonzales anything. Zenaida Gonzales wound up homeless living in her car.
And it seems like the state of Florida just doesn`t pay attention to any damage this woman has done. I don`t understand. Should she not be held responsible for something?
BLOOM: Well, she`s trying to prove the case now. If she proves the case, I think she`s entitled to damages against Casey Anthony if she has any money. Now, she probably doesn`t have any money, but maybe she`ll sell an interview.
GERAGOS: -- whatever interview she`s already sold, already went to Jose. So, that`s not going to happen. And, I don`t think -- I`m telling you, I`ll make my prediction now. I don`t think this judge lets this get to a jury, certainly, not on punitive damages.
PINSKY: We`ve got to take a break. More with Lisa Bloom, Mark Geragos when we come back and your calls 855-373-7395.
PINSKY: We are back with defense attorney, Mark Geragos, and Lisa Bloom. She`s the legal analyst at Avo.com. I want to go to right on out to callers Rick in North Carolina -- Rick.
RICK, NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Dr. Drew. My take is this. When someone`s acquitted of murder, the likes of which Casey Anthony went through and a civil suit follows not for wrongful death, then this is the proverbial beating of a dead horse and it is about money and a lawyer whose moniker is the best things in life are fees.
PINSKY: So, you`re supporting --
GERAGOS: Can I use that? Can I borrow -- ask Rick if he minds if I can put that on my card?
GERAGOS: A reasonable doubt for a reasonable fee, and the best thing in --
PINSKY: So, Rick has supported Casey Anthony. This is interesting --
GERAGOS: I think Rick is absolutely right on this.
PINSKY: I saw you shaking your head.
GERAGOS: He`s absolutely right on this. I mean, there`s -- and this is exactly the way most --
BLOOM: -- she can just do whatever she wants --
GERAGOS: No, because I think people understand. You have one standard which is beyond a reasonable doubt for the criminal case. If you lose that, then you go the O.J. Simpson route or you go to the Robert Blake route. This is not worker -- this is a wrongful death. This is defamation. Come on. Let`s just admit it, it`s a B.S. case. It really is.
BLOOM: No, it`s not. She harmed this woman`s life by a lie that she told over and over again --
PINSKY: Let me ask this about Casey. Casey was acquitted. Sandusky is convicted. We seem to hate both these people equally.
GERAGOS: But it`s always the case.
PINSKY: What does that mean?
GERAGOS: I mean, what that means is is that the media vilifies or demonizes the person whether they`re actually innocent or guilty or not guilty or guilty, does not matter. People make up their minds. It`s one of the reasons jury selection becomes tough on these things.
BLOOM: Well, first of all, Casey was convicted of lying, of lying to the police about the death of daughter. We know that she --
PINSKY: She was an incredible liar.
BLOOM: -- and what kind of mother lies about her daughter`s appearance and goes out partying. That`s why people hate her. No. but she was on trial for lying and --
PINSKY: Why people hated her.
Jennifer in Pennsylvania. Jennifer, do you hate Casey?
JENNIFER, PENNSYLVANIA: Do I hate Casey?
JENNIFER: I don`t hate Casey. I don`t know her, but the bottom line is this. Why are we wasting our time on Casey Anthony or Jerry Sandusky? The bottom line is, the facts are the facts. Jerry Sandusky did what he did. All these people, Penn State, all of the survivors, et cetera, did make the story up.
Casey Anthony absolutely positively murdered her child. Unfortunately, the jury didn`t see it that way. They acquitted her. That`s the way it is. That`s the way it works. Unfortunately, she is walking free. Why we are wasting fabulous news time on this channel for DR. DREW on Casey Anthony or Jerry Sandusky is beyond me or the public because both of these people are guilty.
PINSKY: I`m going to stop you there so we don`t waste any more time on this, Jennifer. Thank you very much for your comment, nonetheless. I want to thank Mark and Lisa for joining us. You guys want to swing at each other one more time before I go to break and we`ve got about 10 seconds.
GERAGOS: I was just going to hug her.
BLOOM: Oh, my gosh. Unhand me, Mark Geragos.
PINSKY: Do you want to tickle her, tickle monster?
BLOOM: You know, but the Sandusky story, in all serious, is a very important story about child molestation and bravo to you for covering it.
PINSKY: That`s why we did it. Thank you, Lisa. I got to go. Thank you, Mark. I got to go. Thank you all for calling. Thank you, of course, for watching. And a reminder that "Nancy Grace"