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Pakistani Interior Minister Interviewed; Historian Simon Schama Interviewed

Aired October 15, 2012 - 15:00:00   ET


CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour. Tonight, exclusive new information in the hunt for the attackers of Malala Yousafzai.

We continue to follow the dramatic case of the 14-year-old Pakistani girl who was shot in the head by the Taliban on her way home from school last week because she publicly stood up to them and insisted on her right to be educated.

Because the Taliban keep threatening to kill Malala, she was secretly transported to the airport, put on an air ambulance that was provided by the United Arab Emirates, and flown to Britain for specialized care at a hospital that deals with battlefield wounds.

Nearly a week after the brutal shooting, Malala continues to fight for her life. Doctors say she's in stable but critical condition.

Her story has touched the world and it's galvanized the people of Pakistan. Boys and girls and grown men openly weep as they pray for her survival. The people want the Taliban militancy stamped out.


SAAD JAFERY, BUSINESSMAN: I want to crush the people who killed -- who tried to kill the Malala.

ASHAR WAQI, STUDENT: The masses, now you can see here, in these people, they are condemning the acts of Taliban.

HAIDER ABBAS RIZVI, MQM PARTY LEADER: We don't want Taliban any more in Pakistan.


AMANPOUR: Emphatic, indeed. But will the Pakistani government and the military get off the fence and press the fight to the finish? Will it put aside the blame game with Afghanistan or the United States and take responsibility for its own terrorists? Tonight I will ask the country's interior minister, who heads up the hunt for Malala's attackers. But first, a look at what's coming up later in the program.



AMANPOUR (voice-over): Round two. While Romney and Obama train for tomorrow's main event, Simon says --

SIMON SCHAMA, HISTORIAN AND FILMMAKER: It's a case of America versus America.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Later, his story on Simon Schama.

And 31 years after its maiden voyage, the shuttle is mothballed; thousands cheer the spaceship's final road trip.


We'll get to that in a bit. But first, my exclusive guest tonight, Pakistani interior minister, Rehman Malik. He's heading up the hunt for Malala's attackers and he has some new information on the investigation.

Mr. Malik, thank you for joining me.

First and foremost, where is your --


AMANPOUR: Where is your investigation leading you to? Where do the leads go?

MALIK: Thank you, Christiane. Let me first thank the entire world for showing solidarity to Malala, the pride of Pakistan and a 14 years' old girl who stood up against the Taliban.

I just would like to say a few words, while you were giving some preamble on Pakistan. Let me tell you we must know that Pakistan is fighting a war, a war which was imposed on Pakistan.

We have lost 40,000 innocent people, 16,000 line forces, fighting is abig sacrifice that when we take responsibility, this is -- this happened only because we have accepted responsibility to fight against terrorism, not only for Pakistan but for the entire world, because we want to see the terrorism free world.

And of course, it is the mindset. The mindset which you have seen and the assassination attempt on Malala shows the intent of the terrorists. Terrorists want their way of life. Of course, there's no blame game. Whatever Pakistan is facing from across the border, that is coming and not really news, but we feel the attack every day.

AMANPOUR: OK, Mr. Minister --


MALIK: (Inaudible) speak to you not a single day left.

AMANPOUR: I just need to know. I feel your passion.

MALIK: Not a single day left when we don't experience terrorist attacks.

AMANPOUR: I feel your passion and I can see you're heated and you're --


MALIK: (Inaudible).

AMANPOUR: Where do the leads go in this investigation?

MALIK: Well, of course, you know my passion which I'm facing for the last five years, Madam. Now the investigation, of course, according to the investigation leads, this conspiracy assassination plan was made across the border in Afghanistan. Of course, Mullah Fudrullah, who had fled away when we took action in Malakand Swat.

And this was transpired there; four people came from there. At that point of time, we did not do exactly know what it was their objective and what kind of action they were going to take, til such time they had hit Malala. Of course, one other guy we have identified and few of his associates have been arrested.

One of the fiancees of one of the terrorists is -- have been detained. And all possible leads which we have worked through our forensic analysis, we are following it.

But what is important that the guy who had claimed for TTP that TTP is responsible for her killing -- for her assassination, obviously, today, I'm announcing $1 million as bounty on his head, which is more than, you know, (inaudible) of Pakistani, 100 million apiece, because we want to definitely get him and all our line forces, intelligence agencies are hunting all those who were involved.

I've some of the names, which were -- I would not like to mention on record, because it may damage investigations.

AMANPOUR: So you --

MALIK: But let me assure my Pakistani nation and the entire world that we will get them very soon.

AMANPOUR: So you say you know who they are. You say you're going to get them. And as a start, you're putting a $1 million bounty on the head of the face of the Pakistani Taliban, Ehsanullah Ehsan. Is that right?

MALIK: Ehsanullah Ehsan, exactly.


MALIK: That's true.

AMANPOUR: All right. Let me -- let me ask you, you know, look, many people say that Malala stood up and fought the Taliban in a way that, frankly, the government and the military haven't yet done. I hear you talking about your casualties. But she really did do it in an -- in an incredible way. And a 14-year-old girl has been targeted.

Is this a turning point? You've heard the Pakistani people say we want these people stamped out. Go -- can you go with that? Is that a consensus? Will you launch an offensive?

MALIK: Well, of course, of course we follow the emotions of the people of Pakistan. And let not the world forget that we are fighting a war, war on our porous (ph) border. And of course, the (inaudible) of Pakistan, the large force intelligentsia (ph), the Pakistan army, is fighting not only in the borders, but also in the mainland.

And of course we are leaving no stone unturned to take action against them, but having said so, there is no negativity or there is no any such thing which you call that we are perhaps avoiding our responsibility. Our responsibilities, of course, we are fighting this war for the last 20 years.


MALIK: And I would like to remind the world, when we decide to take action against the Russian (ph) forces, Soviet Union forces, favoring Afghanistan that time, that's a time these people actually got enraged and all --


AMANPOUR: That may be true, Mr. Minister --

MALIK: -- terrorist scheme --

AMANPOUR: -- that may be true, sir, but the problem is today. And you face a threat from within. And it's spreading and it's causing a huge amount of damage.

So my simple question was, with the galvanizing of support from the Pakistani people, with clearly the will of the world on your side, with the help that you get from other countries, is it now time to use that to go after these people? What will it take for the Pakistani military and political leaders to go after them?

MALIK: Christiane, let me tell you first of all, we have never stopped that action against them. As I speak to you, based on real intelligence, even today, the actions are being taken in south Viristan (ph), north Viristan (ph) and Arkzaid (ph). So this action, these kind of action shall continue.

If you are hinting that as they have a lot of question on the media, going -- sweeping type operation, well, let me tell you, we have some experiences in Malakand Swat. Whenever you take a sweeping action, an operation, that means displacement of people internally. So we are -- we are looking all the aspects.

But let me assure that the military leadership and, of course, the civil leadership will take action at appropriate time. But at the same time, the action based on intelligence are continuing. But the good thing what I can tell on behalf of the people of Pakistan, people of Pakistan do not want Taliban. They do not want extremism.

Our religion doesn't (inaudible) violence. It's religious led of peace. Now the TTP people, the (inaudible) Taliban people, I don't know what kind of some are they exercising. I think they are playing somebody's agenda.

What we are facing on the borders, that's a very clear demonstration that there is some kind of alien help to them, which, of course, I made public some of the proofs (inaudible).

And of course, we would like to call upon the world, please treat us victim (ph), whatever we are facing today, in terms of Malala, it's a mindset. And of course a fight, a fight against the terrorist extremists who have their own agenda --

AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, (inaudible) --

MALIK: -- and I am sure --

AMANPOUR: -- Mr. Minister?

MALIK: -- will look this angle, too.

AMANPOUR: Yes. Mr. Minister, people do look at Malala as a victim, because she stood up to these people and they desperately want the government of Pakistan to do more. You keep blaming -- even today, you said it was patched on the other side of the border in Afghanistan. And yet, let me put this to you.

General Allen, who was chief of all the military in Afghanistan, who's soon to be NATO Supreme Allied commander, has said that his biggest problem, the deadliest enemies are the complete freedom of movement by these terrorists inside Pakistan with the blessing of the Pakistanis.

And the United States has accused you all also or accused the Haqqani Network inside Pakistan of plotting the latest atrocities against international forces in Afghanistan. So, again, sir, the question really is at what point do you decide that your survival rests on fighting this and pressing it to the finish?

MALIK: Christiane, you have all supported the accusations coming from U.S. or Afghanistan. But I think when a nation is suffering, the nation has to speak out. What's happening with drones. As I speak to you, 22,382 people have been killed in drones. And 20 percent are terrorists. The rest are the civilian.

Naturally, people of Pakistan ask us why these drones have not stopped when the fall (inaudible) assemblies, national assembly and Senate have said no to the drones. We expect some kind of cooperation, some kind of joint cooperation. So having said so, we feel them blame then from the other side, there are total (inaudible) 36 attacks, drone attacks --


MALIK: -- people, of course, think that, of course, we are (inaudible) state. We do not want (inaudible) drones coming from the other side. We are allies. Why not to talk? Why not to discuss and do the joint cooperation? And having said so, also please look into the matter of Salala, when, unprovoked attack was done.

And of course they were also Pakistanis. They are (inaudible). They have lost lives and you know what happened. And obviously, we have 97 attacks from Afghanistan side --

AMANPOUR: Yes, I see this so much anger --

MALIK: -- the movement of the people.

AMANPOUR: There's so much anger on all sides --

MALIK: Not the anger. I'm telling you that when --


MALIK: -- that 40,000 to 50,000 passengers daily crossing from Pakistan to Afghanistan. And Afghanistan to Pakistan. And when we (inaudible), we -- the militia of Afghanistan destroyed it. That's what -- when I met your leadership in the U.S., and I find it out.

And of course there (inaudible) agreement, where Mr. Mueller (ph) (inaudible) countersigned, with Pakistani (inaudible) minister and Afghanistani (inaudible) signed. But that (inaudible) people.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Malik --

MALIK: (Inaudible) important to have a common strategy against a common enemy.

AMANPOUR: OK, Mr. Malik, one-word answer: do you rule out an offensive in retaliation for what happened to Malala? Do you rule it out?

MALIK: Well, we will continue it and whatever, wherever it's needed, we will not only advance, we will do the real countering action. But again my point, the world has to see in this way that there is no single directive approach.

We do not have a single approach towards the terrorists. We have -- we have a common approach against a common enemy which realize have failed so far, which have agitated many time all the forms of the world.

AMANPOUR: Interior Minister Malik, thank you very much for joining me.

MALIK: Thank you very much. God bless you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Pakistan and the Taliban will surely be discussed in tomorrow night's U.S. presidential debate. Historian Simon Schama tells us what's at stake in this election, not just for the candidates for the global community. And before we go to a break, more on our top story.

"I Am Malala": it's become a rallying cry, not just in Pakistan, as we've seen, but around the world. This is an online petition launched by the former British prime minister, Gordon Brown, now the U.N. special envoy for global education. And at, you can find Brown's call for Pakistan to ensure that every girl like Malala has the chance and the right to go to school. We'll be right back.



AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

When it comes to the U.S. presidential election, it is always easier to focus on the horse race rather than the substance. But as ever, British historian and filmmaker Simon Schama takes a much broader perspective.

Schama sees troubling signs that politics of the time may not mean the -- meet the demands of these times. Indeed, short-term political maneuvering could potentially threaten democracy itself.

Schama is in the midst of a whirlwind journey taking him from Egypt to Europe to New York City, where I managed to pin him down for this conversation.


AMANPOUR: Simon Schama, welcome. Thanks for coming in.

SCHAMA: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So what do the two candidates, President Obama and Governor Romney, have to do if they want to be elected the next president?

SCHAMA: Well, that is exactly the point, do they argue principles, crucial things that matter to the future of America? Or do they continue on the road where they want to give the impression of leadership?

The two things aren't necessarily the same. But -- and what's been going on, essentially, is a kind of skirmishing around which seems the more plausible person to take charge of a country that's undergoing, at best, anemic recovery.

What I would love to see -- and it's not just the professor talking -- is addressing a situation where America is truly at a crossroads about something very, very simple, and that is what is the relationship of government to economic growth?

What is the relationship of government to social decency, to social fairness, in a tough time?

This is not the case, as some of the Republicans would like to make it, America versus European socialism. It's a case of America versus America, the America that goes all the way back to the New Deal and to the medical legislation introduced by Lyndon Johnson. That is the heart and soul of actually the people being able to understand what can take us forward from now.

AMANPOUR: Do you think Mitt Romney positioned himself closer to that center?

SCHAMA: Well, he certainly did, because, actually, you know, having chosen -- it was a very skillful political moment -- having actually chosen Paul Ryan, he managed, basically, to make Paul Ryan user-friendly.

Specifically, for example, he's constantly challenged on how he would make tax cuts revenue neutral by closing which, exactly, loopholes. As soon as his lips really form the words "mortgage deductions," for instance, example, he's screwed, actually, because that is a particular instance where Americans will feel penalized suddenly by hardcore Ryanite economic austere doctrine.

So he was very clever, in some sense, actually, not letting go of the core Republican beliefs but planting them in a kind of touchy-feely, you know, happy politics, really.

AMANPOUR: Which is kind of the challenger's great gift, isn't it?

It's the president who has to defend his policies --


SCHAMA: Well, the president --

AMANPOUR: -- in a debate.

SCHAMA: -- the president has to come back to that first issue I talked about: does the recent evidence of recent American history and also what we sense mean that you will only get economic growth in this country, to the degree to which government is more or less wiped out as an economic actor?

Or does what happened in Detroit -- does what happened, with restoring some just rudiment regulation to the financial industry, benefit the possibility of the growth?

Or is it actually a millstone around the neck of an otherwise resurgent American economy?

Obama can decently on the evidence, if he chooses to do so, not just kind of skirmish around the agenda the Republicans have set, saying, look, you know, it wasn't overregulation; it wasn't actually government intervention that caused the problem, nor is it -- nor does it mean that European socialism has arrived to strangle what oxygen is left of the American economy.

But that he has to have the courage and the clarity to take it to that Republican gate (ph).

AMANPOUR: So people are saying that this could be the most important American election in decades, not just for the United States, but, actually, for its knock-on effect around the world.

How are people in Europe looking at this election?

SCHAMA: Well, people in Europe, from which I've just returned, they're very sentimental about Barack Obama. They can't quite take on board the possibility that he won't be given another four years.

It's an American democracy. He'll get it if he deserves it.

And on the showing of the past debate, there was a huge kind of leadership deficit in his public persona.

However, what they're also looking at -- what a lot of people are looking at is not simply whether or not the election will be decided by a charisma competition, but whether or not austerity -- brutal, fierce, unrelenting austerity -- is actually a way not just to be nice to a distressed population, but pick the economies of southern Europe, and, indeed, Ireland and Great Britain, up from the floor.

The Obama case for Europe and the rest of the world is that it actually has, you know, worked, to some degree. We are in recovery. It's anemic. It's lame. It's not what we wanted, but we are not like Portugal and Spain and Ireland, and Greece, God help us, the places which have been subject to a massive bludgeoning of austerity.

AMANPOUR: Well, let --

SCHAMA: So they're trying to say, is there another way?

AMANPOUR: Well, let's talk about Greece, and particularly, the German influence in Greece --


AMANPOUR: -- with this economy.

I mean the German chancellor decided to go to Greece and was met with truly horrendous, crude, fascist, you know, ideology and words and people dressing up as Hitler and, you know, treating her as the Fourth Reich.

I mean, obviously, this is a symbol of -- of some of the stress that's going on.

But how do you react to that?

SCHAMA: Well, it is -- it -- you know, you can't be a historian, actually, and also be a 20th century boy -- I was born in 1945 -- and not feel a terrible tremor of horror. You can overdo it a bit. We're not at the point, really, of 1932 in Germany.

But it has to be said that to, somebody like me, not just in Greece, but in Spain, with an unemployment rate of 25 percent -- 50 percent among the young -- democracies really can't survive against the mystique of thunderbolt of authoritarian appeals, both from left and right, with a sort of sense, actually, of an enormous amount of population with no future.

They will reject democracy. They will reject parliamentary politics if that is perpetuated.

So, you know, for someone like Angela Merkel, you know, she -- it was a horrifying scene. But the European Central Bank and the Germans and all the rest of them have to think of a Plan B. It's not the kind of European generated Marshall Plan. Those days are over.

But in terms of actually cutting a country like Greece or Spain enough slack so that some little pipsqueak of demand can actually be reborn inside the countries, or else you're not just going to get permanent flatlining, you are going to get, over the next five years or so, a real threat from populist forces.

They don't come in, Christiane, waving swastikas or, let alone, hammer and sickles. They come in saying, we are the soul of the nation and we are sick of politicians. And what they do is they institute a kind of quasi militarist coup d'etat. That's how it happens.

AMANPOUR: Simon Schama, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us.

SCHAMA: You're welcome, Christiane.


AMANPOUR: And given the current state of affairs in the United States and Europe, we might be forgiven for wanting a different perspective, like from outer space, let's say. The end of an era, though, when we come back.




AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where a spaceship trades the Milky Way for the freeway. The space shuttle Endeavour made its final journey this weekend towed by a Toyota truck through the streets of Los Angeles on the way to its assisted living facility at a science museum.

The 12-mile trip at 2 mph, a far cry from its cruising speed of twice the speed of sound, gave thousands of people a close-up view of the giant ship. But it's important to remember how this journey first began, with the inspiring words of President John F. Kennedy 50 years ago.


JOHN F. KENNEDY, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other thing, not because they are easy, but because they are hard.


AMANPOUR: And, indeed, they did that. But 50 years later, the Obama administration has slashed funding for NASA and with the last space shuttle in mothballs, the stars now look a little farther away.

And that's it for tonight's program. Thanks for watching. Goodbye from New York.