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Sex Scandal Naming Names
Aired October 17, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): A quiet town rocked by a sex scandal. New tape of the alleged prostitute who possibly was videotaping her clients and now the police are naming names. One school official has already quit his job. Families may be torn apart.
An entire town is reeling from Maine`s Zumba instructor-turned- prostitute`s secret sex tapes.
And secret love child. Eileen O`Neil (ph) was 31 years old when she found out that mommy cheated on daddy and got pregnant. Eileen was the product of an affair. And after a lifetime of addiction, she says that this is the first thing in her life that made sense.
And another shocker, our former guest, real-life Nurse Jackie, Joni Gambell (ph), just found out that she too has a secret love child in her family and she is about to meet the sister she never knew she had.
Let`s get started.
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PINSKY: All right. Now, first up, we`re going to talk about the Zumba, so to speak, prostitute in Maine.
But before I do that, I want to remind people it is Wednesday. These topics are germane to relationships and sex. And the news is full of these headlines. So we`re getting right into it with the names of 21 men in Kennebunk, Maine, have been released by police and apparently there are more to come.
These gentlemen have been charged with engaging in prostitution, allegedly with fitness instructor, Alexis Wright. Put a picture up there if you can. I want to see who this woman is.
She had pled not guilty to more than 106 counts, including promoting prostitution. She pled not guilty. There she is.
Zumba and prostitution are not two words I thought I`d be saying in the same breath side by side.
Joining me are attorney Areva Martin and Ken Altshuler, a divorce attorney and morning drive time radio host in Kennebunk.
Ken, I want to go to you first. This is an extraordinary story. Here we are in a sleepy, I imagine, New England town. This is where the puritans settled.
And into this comes an infecting agent. What`s going on to this community as a result of this scandal?
KEN ALTSHULER, LOCAL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, that`s what they`re asking themselves. Remember, this is the town right next or to where George Bush has a summer home. Very conservative community, a very upscale community, a lot of wealth.
And now we find out that during the day, there were men driving up, parking behind the Zumba studio, going in for a half hour lesson, coming out and the list is rocking the town. We know there are six attorneys that are on the list eventually being released. There are many doctors, police officers, firemen, former mayors, town managers, and for some reason there`s a cattle rancher on this list as well. We don`t know who that is yet, though.
PINSKY: So, Ken, what is going to happen to your town? Is this blowing apart? Are people sort of evacuating or are they pulling together in some way?
ALTSHULER: You know, a little of both. People are very concerned, of course, about the children. Because, you know, the real victims in this case aren`t the Johns, but it`s the spouses and the children.
And there have been many efforts to try and shield the children from the publicity. Unfortunately, most of these mens are married and presumably their families didn`t know about it. So when these kids are going to school the next day, there`s some teasing going on. There`s been a real effort in the school system to protect the children, to have kind of an anti-bullying policy and to try to protect the children from being teased.
That`s been the major focus of the town, other than that --
PINSKY: So, Ken --
PINSKY: Ken, tell me this. You live in this town. You`ve lived I imagine for a while in this town. What do you feel like when you walk through the grocery store these days? Are you looking over your shoulder wondering who is going to be on that list next? Do people talk about this?
Or is it something there`s just people holding their breath quietly?
ALTSHULER: There`s a lot of -- you know, we don`t want this kind of notoriety. This is not what Kennebunk wants to know known for. We`re a beautiful town, tourist town.
We don`t want people to think of us as a center of prostitution, so we are embarrassed and we`re ashamed to some extent.
At the same time, you know, a lot of these people on the list aren`t from Kennebunk. A lot of them are from out of state, out of the town and in fact in the first list of 21 names, really there was only a few of them that are from Kennebunk. So we kind of feel like we were invaded by outside strangers who came into our town and engaged in this illegal behavior.
PINSKY: It reminds me of the movie "Jaws" where they don`t want to tell anybody because the tourists will start to leave. They don`t want anybody to know we`ve been invaded by a killer shark.
But you`ve been wanting to speak. Go ahead.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You know what really is strange to me about this story, Dr. Drew, is that there`s some sympathy for these Johns. But I don`t hear much sympathy for this 29-year-old Zumba instructor.
You know, I`m a children rights advocate, so I`m very concerned about the children and the impact on the kids from these stories be released.
PINSKY: It`s going to be awful.
MARTIN: But the reality is we`re showing the picture of this woman over and over and over again, but somehow the sympathy is laying with the men. You can`t have prostitution unless you have men buying sex from a woman.
PINSKY: I think I understand that part. I get that.
MARTIN: So why all the sympathy for the Johns?
PINSKY: I want to go back to why we should be concerned about the children and the families here, and that`s why I wonder about the wisdom of this judge announcing this so publicly. Tell me why -- it`s a he or she, this judge? Ken, is it a he -- a male judge or female judge?
ALTSHULER: It`s a male judge.
MARTIN: It`s a male.
ALTSHULER: He`s been on the bench quite some time. This is complicated because what happened was normally when you get charged with a crime it`s public record. Your name is released even if you`re not found guilty yet.
ALTSHULER: What happened was there was a local attorney who filed a motion on behalf of two Johns asking the court to not disclose the names. The judge decided that the names were public record, but to protect them because of the invasion of privacy. And remember, this woman posted videos on pay per view porn sites. And these were taped without the Johns knowledge.
PINSKY: So --
MARTIN: She`s been charged for a different crime for the taping without consent. She`s also been charged with tax evasion because she`s made like $150,000 from these --
PINSKY: From the videos.
MARTIN: Well, from the illegal sexual acts. This has been going on over about 18 months.
So she`s been charged with a plethora of crimes, but I`m just still concerned about -- you`re worried about the privacy of the men, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I`m not worried about it. I`m confused about it, that it has to be such a public experience. But you`re saying it`s being treated like any other crime.
MARTIN: Any other crime, yes.
PINSKY: The judge will release the name and these guys have to -
MARTIN: You`re charged with a crime, it`s a public record.
PINSKY: They have to live up to the consequence of their action.
PINSKY: I`m all for that.
I want to go to a quick call from Victoria in Illinois.
Victoria, I may not have time to answer your question, but let`s hear what you want to ask.
VICTORIA, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Yes, Dr. Drew. Hello. Thank you for having me.
First of all, it`s a 50-50 thing here. Yes, I agree that the men should be made public because people need to know who they live next door to. And then on the secondhand, the children of these men, how are they holding their heads up in school and what are the teachers thinking about what is going on with these families?
PINSKY: Yes, yes.
VICTORIA: That`s the thing.
PINSKY: That is the thing. That is what is so is distressing.
Listen, listen, anybody, get the camera on me, listen, anybody out there that is the head of a household, a man with children and a wife, and you`re thinking about engaging in prostitution or cheating, think about what it does to your family. Think about what it does to your family.
PINSKY: Think about it. You are taking -- you are aggressing against your family. If you have such powerful urges or something is going on in your marriage, let`s deal with that, not take action that will have horrible consequences.
Now, the fact that these guys have done this still concerns me about the women --
MARTIN: You can`t expect the courts to protect you as an adult male. You made a choice. But the men made a choice to put their families in harm`s way, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: So, shouldn`t we worry about those families? I know the guy has got to pay the price. But --
MARTIN: I do worry about those kids, but I also worry about the bias in the criminal justice system that says it`s OK to publicize the woman, the prostitute, but it`s not okay to talk about the men.
PINSKY: I am with you. I am deeply concerned about both -- all these issues.
MARTIN: I don`t know what we can accomplish. I think the parents have to be responsible for their kids in this case. I don`t know if the judge, without sealing all the records -- so if the judge is going to keep the men`s names and their identities private, then likewise for that woman.
PINSKY: OK. Oh, well that`s -- I`m glad I`m not the judge.
MARTIN: You can`t have it both ways, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: The woman has published these guys` tapes. It`s a complicated case, I get that. I`m glad I`m not the judge. I`m glad I`m not the judge.
MARTIN: It is complicated, and we have third parties who did nothing. These innocent children --
MARTIN: -- who are being victimized.
PINSKY: That`s the part --
MARTIN: I am so concerned about them as well, but their dads have to take responsibility for them.
PINSKY: You don`t have to bear it with the kids.
Terry in Florida -- Terry.
TERRY, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thanks for having me on tonight.
PINSKY: Sure. Go ahead.
TERRY: I agree what that woman was speaking about, these men made the choice to go see a prostitute and they should be publicized, you know? I mean, the others that are going to cause collateral damage --
PINSKY: Terry, Terry, let me ask you something. I agree with you, they`re causing the collateral damage. Does that mean the collateral damage has to be delivered by the courts? Wouldn`t it be better to just call these guys in, call them on the carpet, they have to pay their price to society, the wife will find out about it, they`ll deal with.
You know what I`m saying?
MARTIN: How do we deter prostitution, Dr. Drew, if men get off like that? A part of what this case is doing is telling other men --
PINSKY: OK. All right.
MARTIN: -- if you cross the line, if you break the law, if you engage with a prostitute, your name is going to be on the front page of the paper. Your family is going to suffer, your job is going to suffer, your reputation and your career.
PINSKY: I don`t have the intestinal fortitude, I don`t. That`s why I`m not an attorney, I guess. But here`s the deal, I`m going to complicate this conversation more because there is -- thank you, Terry. Thank you, for that.
And, of course, Ken, thank you as well. I appreciate you giving us a sense of what it`s like on the ground there.
I`m going to show a shocking video of the accused Maine prostitute. And, again, make sure the kids are out of the room.
And later I`m going to complicate this conversation by bringing in so- called legal prostitutes and see what they -- I`ll be curious. What is their opinion about this having happened.
There they are. These are from Nevada. They`re going to sort of ring in. They`ve got a whole point of view on this too.
And then, later on, still we`re going to talk to a woman who found out she was the product of her mother`s affair. Something more common than you might imagine.
Stay with us.
PINSKY: Now, welcome back. I said I was going to show you some video that is adult. I want to get a sense of who this woman is that we`re talking about that is accused in the Kennebunk prostitution Zumba scandal. This is a -- this is a video of her actually doing some sort of -- I don`t know if this is --
MARTIN: Pole dance.
PINSKY: Yes, pole dance, as you say, Areva.
So, she`s somebody that was engaged in some sort of -- is this for the Internet perhaps? Anyway, she is the middle -- police evidently found this video. I don`t know if this is a part of some of her Internet stuff, whatever. But this was somebody in the middle of Maine for goodness sakes and was operating a prostitution ring straight out of her Zumba, what do you call it, Zumba --
MARTIN: Dance studio.
Now, this scandal has overrun this town. You, before the break, were chastising me for defending the men in a way, which I really wasn`t. I was very uncomfortable with that.
But I framed the whole thing as an episode of "Jaws," the movie "Jaws" where a New England town is invaded and that`s painting the woman as the sole invading agent.
MARTIN: Yes. And it`s just disturbing to me, Dr. Drew. And my grandmother had a saying, if you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.
So these men now have made a choice. They went out, they paid this prostitute. But somehow now all of a sudden, they want the court to protect their privacy, their identity.
But nobody is making that claim for this 29-year-old woman who, you know, obviously has some issues going on that we don`t know, some things have not come out. We`re going to learn more about her.
But in some ways, she`s being victimized. And it`s OK to put her picture all over the Internet but not the men. That`s troubling.
PINSKY: All right. So let me talk to some women who might have another opinion about this. There`s the young lady accused in this case.
I`m joined by Shelley Lubben. She herself a former porn star, prostitute and founder of the Pink Cross Foundation.
As well as from Nevada two legal prostitutes, Courtney Cross and Sunny Lane from the famed Bunny Ranch.
OK, ladies -- let me start with you guys since you`re on camera, do you have a different point of view than what Areva and I have been talking about here?
SUNNY LANE, BUNNYRANCH.COM: Absolutely, yes, we have a different point of view.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
LANE: We feel like Alexis premeditated everything. She set these guys up. She purposely shot secret film of them. Put them out on the Internet and she exposed them to the rest of the world.
Really, she should be the one that`s exposed. The guys should be very private in this. They shouldn`t have their names out there, and for the reason of is because she deliberately did this for a reason. She knew exactly what she was doing and that`s why at the Bunny Ranch we are very discreet for that reason.
PINSKY: So you guys have a very different point of view about prostitution generally. You`re sort of saying that men should be allowed to do this in a discreet way. Is that your point of view?
LANE: Absolutely, yes. They should be able to come to the Bunny Ranch, have a good time, have some memories and go back to their wives --
PINSKY: Areva, you said the guys are going to get fleas. Not literally.
MARTIN: You know, Dr. Drew, all I can say is that the Bunny Ranch is trying to protect its flow of income and business by saying men come to Bunny Ranch and you`ll be protected.
The law is just the opposite. The law says if you`re charged with a crime, whether it`s prostitution or assault or bank robbery, your name becomes public. So we`re not going to change the law to protect men who want to have sex for money with women.
PINSKY: But, again, let`s remind people that my issue is not protecting the men but protecting those families.
MARTIN: But it`s the identity of the men, Dr. Drew. And law says no. If you`re charged with a crime, your name can become public. That`s the law in most states in this country.
PINSKY: Listen --
MARTIN: So, are we to change the law to protect some men --
PINSKY: Not the men, but the families. Let`s get the men but find a way to get the families --
MARTIN: It doesn`t work that way and by publicizing the men, we`re making men hopefully make better choices.
PINSKY: I agree.
MARTIN: Not break the law, not engage in prostitution and their names won`t be on the front page of the paper.
PINSKY: All right. Janice in New Hampshire -- Janice, do you have a comment here?
JANICE, CALLER FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE: Yes, I do. I live within 75-mile radius of where this alleged prostitution ring has been happening, and my issue is that I do not understand why everybody is so down on this woman. However the men get scot-free.
To me, that`s no different than a drug dealer giving our children drugs but they`re not being responsible.
PINSKY: Janice, I think you have a champion here in the room with me --
MARTIN: Janice raises an excellent point. People commit all kinds of crimes, drug crimes, murder -- their names are plastered all over the news and some of those criminals have children. They have families and we`re not so concerned about protecting them in those situations.
PINSKY: All right. Well, I am actually. I am.
But let me quickly go to Shelley. I`ve got less than a minute, Shelley. Do you have an opinion on this as well? I`m sure you do.
SHELLEY LUBBEN, FORMER PROSTITUTE, PORN STAR: I have to agree with her. The men definitely make a demand on the women and we are usually very young, between the ages of maybe 15 to 25, and we allow these men to make demands on us and, you know, I have to agree. I think their names should be publicized. I think everyone involved should be publicized, you know, whoever was involved.
When I was in prostitution, it went both ways. The men that made demands on me and I used the men back to take my rage out on them for even causing me to be part of a prostitution act, so I have to agree with her. I think they should publicize all the names and the men should definitely be held accountable for making demands on these women. It is sex trafficking.
PINSKY: OK, ladies. I`ve assembled my team here. I`m sure those of you who are listening have very strong points of view. I want your calls now. Call us at 855-DRDREW5.
We`re going to keep this conversation going after this.
PINSKY: It is sex and relationship Wednesday and we are discussing the Zumba prostitution scandal in Maine.
I`ve assembled my team here with very intense opinions, everybody, and I want to get right to calls.
I have Quanika in New York.
QUANIKA, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Go right ahead.
QUANIKA: I am so disappointed in you.
PINSKY: In me? OK. Please let me have it.
QUANIKA: I`m done. I watch this show all the time. I don`t understand how you can sit there and try to justify so-called protecting these men because of their children? This is crazy! This is a perfect, perfect example of male bias.
PINSKY: You know what, Quanika --
QUANIKA: I don`t understand how you can justify it.
PINSKY: You know what? Let me slow you down.
I don`t disagree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you. I needed -- Areva had to punch me between the eyes a little bit to get me to sort of think a bit. I agree with you guys, I don`t disagree.
But here`s my conflict. You say if you`re with me on this, at least. That still, by exposing these men, I`m all for the men paying the price, isn`t there a way to do that and protect the families and the children? Or do the children have to pay that price too just because these guys have aggressed against their family, and I think you agree with that.
Do you agree that we should try to think of at least a way to protect these kids?
QUANIKA: That is already being done. Didn`t they play the clip about the schools stepping in and trying to step (ph) on the bullying?
PINSKY: Yes, we did. The schools are being very responsible with this. But I -- listen, Quanika, I think you and I are not as far apart as you think and I apologize to anybody that my Y chromosome has offended, because Areva properly pulled my back into line here a little bit. I am with you guys. But it still makes me very uncomfortable --
MARTIN: Dr. Drew, Alexis has a family too. You haven`t mentioned her family. Her mom, her dad. We don`t know, she may have children.
What about the protection of her family? They have to watch their daughter on television every night being called a prostitute.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
MARTIN: All of these videos. She deserves the same protection that you want for these men.
PINSKY: Courtney, I haven`t heard from you. I saw you shaking your head vigorously. I`ve got about 45 seconds. Let me have it.
COURTNEY CROSS, LEGAL PROSTITUTE IN NV: Well, Dr. Drew, my problem is they need to protect these kids. These men were influential people. You know, for the kids` sake, with the way the bullying is. You know, that`s not OK, with the schools and everything.
And you know, you don`t know whether the teachers are being biased towards the kids.
PINSKY: I agree with you, Courtney. Sunny, go ahead. You have something to say?
LANE: You know, it is serious about the kids. It is very important because this is going to last for a lifetime. I`m sorry for Alexis that she chose to go the legal route, where we chose to go the legal route at the Bunny Ranch. Sorry, but she chose to do that and she secretly taped these men. I`m sorry. Yes, guys want to go and have fun --
PINSKY: Sunny, I`m going to interrupt you, I`m sorry, I`ve got to interrupt.
I wonder if there`s another Quanika out there that wants to call and let me have it. I`m here, you guys. I`m ready to do it.
Set me straight, 855-373-7395. I`ll be right back with more of this.
PINSKY: OK. We are discussing the Zumba prostitution scandal in Kennebunk, Maine, and I must say I am a little bit embarrassed that I don`t consider myself -- I consider myself to be a champion of women`s causes and I find myself here having been a little bit male biased.
MARTIN: I think that prostitution John thing gets a lot of men, Dr. Drew, who think they are women rights activists.
MARTIN: Women rights champions.
PINSKY: I`m there.
MARTIN: But on this issue they get very protective of the men.
PINSKY: I`m not protective of the men, I`m really not. I`m protective of the consequences of what these men have done. And you`re right. Why should this be different than any other claim? And you had something that really cut through me before the break. Areva said, what about Alexis` child which didn`t even consider.
And there is another child there in all of this. I want to read your quick twitter. This is somebody that says B3li3v3_D. "Dr. Drew, the men should have thought about their families and children before paying that zumba instructor for sex." And that`s the bottom line that men -- men aggress against their family when they cheat.
As the only other Y chromosome in the mix here, would you help me out. Have you learned anything from this conversation? Ken, ken, I`m sorry. I said Art. Beg your pardon.
KEN ALTSHULER, LOCAL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: First of all, you mentioned Alexis. She has a child, four-year-old child. This child goes to public education. Parents are responsible for what they do. If they do something that embarrasses their family, that`s on them. Alexis was extorting men.
She was taping videos and selling them on the internet without them knowing. Now, Maine law allows for the disclosure of names if you`re charged with a crime. That may not be the way it should be, but it`s the way it is.
PINSKY: It`s the way it is and, Ken, to interrupt you, I just want to say that everybody involved in this is criminal.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Yes, absolutely.
PINSKY: And I`ve been talking to Sunny and Courtney, whose position has been that men should visit legal prostitutes, and I have to chuckle at that, because ladies, that too has a consequence on the relationship. It`s not like when I`m treating a couple and there`s trouble we say, gentlemen, why not some legal prostitution.
That won`t solve your problems. That`s not how it works. So, I appreciate your point of view. Go ahead, Sunny, please.
SUNNY LANE, LEGAL PROSTITUTE IN NV: Actually, sometimes, I have couples actually come in and sit down and they talk to me about their problems. I`m actually in school to be a lovelogist (ph) myself. So, I like to sit down with them and work some things out. And it`s good that they came together and they were open enough to listen to each other`s desires and their wants and needs.
PINSKY: I think I hear Shelley -- hang on a second. I think I hear Shelley having an apoplectic episode. Shelly, do you have something to say there?
SHELLEY LUBBEN, FORMR PROSTITUTE, PORN STAR: So, she`s a qualified counselor to reach out to men and help them while she hurts their families at the same time? I do feel very passionate about prostitution and prostitutes hurting husbands, wives, and especially children. And that`s what they do. Do you think --
PINSKY: OK. Hold on, guys, one at a time.
LUBBEN: Do you know that at least 90 percent of their clients are married men? I know. I was there. So, do they care about the wives and children?
LANE: But I`m not stopping them --
PINSKY: Ladies, time-out, time-out, host here. I want to go to some phone calls. Let`s go to Laura in Virginia. I want to hear what my viewers have to say about this. We`ve had our fun here in the studio. Laura, what`s up?
LAURA, VIRGINIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Laura, please.
LAURA: I feel this way, but certainly, this crime is no different from any other crime, any crime that is committed always has third-party victims that are innocent. And in this case, I don`t think there should be an exception. These gentlemen should be exposed, and it`s unfortunate, again, for the families, but, you cannot depend on someone never recording what you do.
When you rob a bank, when you do -- commit other crimes, there are cameras, and they don`t always say, hey, hi, I`m here recording you. This is something that happens.
PINSKY: OK. Hang on. I want Areva to speak to this, because this is your point.
MARTIN: You know, absolutely, Dr. Drew. These men made an adult choice, a wrong choice, but they made a choice.
PINSKY: A criminal choice.
MARTIN: A criminal choice.
MARTIN: And so, the taping of it, the exploitation of the tape on the internet, all foreseeable things when you go and buy sex from a prostitute. Do you think a prostitute is thinking about your privacy rights? Is she thinking about your legal rights to sign consent for this video to be on the internet? Absolutely not. She`s making money.
PINSKY: And Shelley, I see you vigorously shaking your head in agreement, yes?
LUBBEN: Yes. I`m definitely in agreement and I definitely feel that men -- this is a man`s world, and women are objected by every single day from a Miller Light poster to prostitution to sex trafficking. I can go into my local grocery store and they`re on "Sports Illustrated."
Definitely, I hold the men accountable and all their names should definitely be made public. It`s just like any other crime. If someone has a DUI, their name is made public. Why do these men get to get protections? And then --
PINSKY: All right, let me hear --
LUBBEN: -- sex trafficking.
PINSKY: All right. Let me hear from a man. This is Pat in Connecticut. Pat, what do you got for me?
PAT, CONNECTICUT: Hi, Dr. Drew. My name is Pat. I`m from Connecticut. I have bipolar disorder and when I get very promiscuous, I go to see prostitutes all the time. I don`t see anything wrong with that, it`s a victimless crime. And I wish that they`d make it legal.
PINSKY: And so, Pat, let me explain --
PINSKY: Hold on. Let me explain to people what -- he`s talking about manic depression or bipolar disorder. And in that condition, people get very manic and when they`re manic, they become hypersexual. And you`re saying then you go do things you wouldn`t do if you weren`t in a manic state. Is that right, Pat?
PAT: That`s very true.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
MARTIN: It doesn`t make it legal, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Doesn`t make legal. Kim in Wisconsin. Hang on a second, Shelley. Hang on, Shelley. Hold on. Kim in Wisconsin, you had something you wanted to add?
KIM, WISCONSIN: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew. I just find it amazing that the police department is taking this crime so seriously, because in my community, my fiance is hooking up with prostitutes and I can`t get a police officer to do anything about it. I found out he`s been in Madison, Wisconsin, a smaller community, (INAUDIBLE) Wisconsin, a little bit bigger community, and there`s no one that has resources to find him and cite him. And I have all the information that they need.
PINSKY: What do we do with that, Areva? Is there something special about this crime?
MARTIN: I don`t think there`s anything special about it except the number of men that are involved, and I think one of the things that publicizing crimes do, Dr. Drew, is they serve as a deterrent. So, you`re going to think twice before committing a crime or engaging in criminal activity because you will know that your name will end up on the front page of the paper, in the news, on television, on the internet. So, hopefully, that makes you think twice.
PINSKY: OK. Here`s the deal. Ladies, Sunny and Courtney, thank you for giving your point of view and joining us. Shelley, as always, thank you as well for a lively discussion. Ken, I appreciate, Ken Altshuler, for giving us the sense of what this is like on the ground there.
And of course, Areva, as always, thank you for setting me straight. I have an interesting feeling in my stomach today. And -- but it`s -- it`s not exactly shame, it`s sort of embarrassment that --
MARTIN: Transform, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I feel like this conversation did transform me a little bit. I really -- you`re right. Sometimes, we need to check ourselves. We think --
MARTIN: Role reversal. So, maybe you lawyer, me doctor tonight.
PINSKY: All right, fair enough.
PINSKY: Done and done.
All right. Next up, I`ve got a woman who found out she was the product of an affair her mother had had with another man. Stay with us.
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PINSKY (voice-over): A secret love child, Eileen O`Neill was 31 years old when she found out that mommy cheated on daddy and got pregnant. Eileen was the product of an affair. And after a lifetime of addiction, she says that this is the first thing in her life that made sense.
And another shocker, our former guest, real-life Nurse Jackie Joani Gammill, just found out that she too has a secret love child in her family and she is about to meet the sister she never knew she had. Let`s get started.
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PINSKY: But first, I want to introduce you to Ellen O`Neill, not Eileen O`Neill, as I said in that tape. And ironically, she is the author of "Ellen Who?: Story of a Secret Love Child" and I messed that up. And by the way, hi to Eileen O`Neill who`s a friend of mine. Before I talk to Ellen, I want to share a recent clip from "60 Minutes."
Listen as Arnold Schwarzenegger addresses fathering a love child while married to Maria Shriver.
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ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, FORMER GOVERNOR: I was terrible. I inflicted tremendous pain on Maria and unbelievable pain on the kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you lied to her?
SCHWARZENEGGER: You can say that. I think it was the stupidest thing I`ve done in the whole relationship.
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PINSKY: Ellen, do you have a reaction to that? It seems the theme of the show today is men misbehaving.
ELLEN O`NEILL, BORN OF MOM`S EXTRAMARITAL AFFAIR: Yes, I have a real reaction to that. It made me cringe, because in other clips, he didn`t refer to the relationship. He said it was the stupidest thing he`d ever done. And I thought where does that leave Joseph?
PINSKY: Which is you identify with the child that is the product of that.
O`NEILL: Absolutely. The illegitimate child that`s sort of the victim of -- I guess, once again, promoting his new book and whatever else is new world is going to be at the expense of somebody else.
PINSKY: Well, let`s talk about your story. You always felt as though you didn`t fit in and you think that, perhaps, contributed to your addiction, having exploded at a relatively young age. Is that right?
O`NEILL: Well, I sensed that something was off, you know, in my family intuitively. What the facts were and what I felt on the inside didn`t match. And so, I went to food. I used to eat and eat and eat just to not have to feel anything. I didn`t really trust what was going on. It was very confusing.
PINSKY: And they kept it a secret. As I was say, you`re sick as your secrets. It was a family secret that you intuitively as a child -- I mean, children are sponges. They know everything even if they can`t know explicitly what`s going on. They know something isn`t right.
PINSKY: That was the feeling.
O`NEILL: My dad just didn`t connect with me. There`s a lot of resentment between my parents when it came to me. And I just knew that I was the catalyst of whatever the problem was, because I have a sister who`s six years older, and they really connected well. And then, my brother was born seven years after and it was just very clear that`s something was awry when it came to me.
PINSKY: Something different about you.
PINSKY: Did that then translate into how you -- who you were attracted to as an adult? Did you choose men that were abandoning and neglectful?
O`NEILL: Or unavailable.
O`NEILL: Absolutely unavailable. There -- I kept manifesting that. I wondered, do you think people manifest their lessons over and over again?
PINSKY: Well, it`s something called repetition compulsion that when something is -- there`s a funny thing that happens in childhood. If it`s terrorizing and particularly unpleasant, it gets converted into attraction in adulthood.
So, we are attracted to people and circumstances that end up doing the same thing to us, because it`s those same people, same kind of people that will, of course, oblige us by doing it all over again. Let me quickly talk to Trudy in Canada. Trudy, you have something to say to us?
TRUDY, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Hi, Ellen.
TRUDY: Yes. I just want to say it`s really interesting listening to your story. I used to sit around the table of a family of nine and say I don`t belong here. I`m different than the rest of you. Only to find out when I was 17 that my father wasn`t my real father, that I had been a product of an affair that my mother had.
And, when I was 37, I met my biological father, but -- and so, I have half sisters and brothers on that side, too. I think I`ve had about 13 of them altogether. And what I end up doing is I end up feeling like I don`t have any family at all. Like I wasn`t close to the family I grew up with because I did feel different. And --
PINSKY: Are you OK now? Are you doing OK? Are you able to have relationships? Have you found a family of your own?
TRUDY: Well, I have two beautiful sons. I mean, they`ve been my lifesaver. You know, I went through recovery and alcoholism and all that.
PINSKY: I`m going to stop you, Trudy, and talk to Ellen for a second. Isn`t it funny how -- when these things happen how often just the case that alcoholism and addiction manifest. When people feel that emptiness, that void, they fill it with substances.
O`NEILL: Yes, yes. And I`ve gotten a lot of letters since this has come out. I have a website. And another common thread is the relief in finding out. You know, I had such a relief. And so did my father.
PINSKY: It makes sense.
O`NEILL: We both knew something was wrong. My mom was Irish catholic, so was he. And, they were married 37 years. And, she ended the relationship with my biological dad. And you know, at that time, it was the right thing.
PINSKY: Did you go find your biological father?
O`NEILL: Well, he was my father`s boss. So, he was in our family. Actually, he was at the hospital the day I was born.
PINSKY: Wow! And your -- the guy you called your dad, your step- father --
O`NEILL: My real dad. The only dad.
PINSKY: -- was aware that this guy was your actual biological father?
O`NEILL: No. He had asked my mother. He asked her when she was pregnant for me, is this my child, and then, he spent his whole life feeling guilty for not believing her.
PINSKY: Again, you`re as sick as your secrets. And the anthropologists write about this. That women sometimes reach outside of the primary relationship to collect some genes. It`s a strange things human`s do. It`s why women sometimes have a last fling before they get married. That is that same impulse.
I`m not saying it`s good. I`m not saying it`s something -- again, I`m not defending men and their behavior, I`m not. You know? You know what I`m saying? But, I`m afraid I`m going to get attacked again.
Let me stop for a second and say that I`ve got a former guest coming in here next. We know her as the real-life nurse Jackie, and she has a new drama unfolding in her life. She, too, has just learned she has a secret sister. Stay with us. But first out, I`ve got "Our Country Votes."
We asked what struck you most about the presidential debate last night? First of all, Karen on Facebook says, "Now, we have to choose between the lesser of two evils. Again." Kat says "makes me not want to vote at all."
PINSKY: I`m back with Ellen o`Neill. She learned at age 31, she was a secret love child born from her mother`s extramarital affair with her dad`s boss.
Joining me now is Joanie Gamel. She is a nurse and was secretly addicted to prescription pills. That`s why we call her our Nurse Jackie. And tonight, you`re here to reveal something new about a secret sister. Tell us about this.
JOANI GAMMILL, JUST LEARNED SHE HAS A SECRET SISTER: Yes. I found out very unexpectedly I had a woman call me and she said I think -- I saw you on TV and I think you`re my sister. And I thought oh, right, what a kook. And then, she sent me an e-mail and I happened to be watching that show "Who Do You Think You Are."
And I read the e-mail and she had a lot of specific details. And then, when I talked to her, she was breathless and said I`ve been looking for you for 12 years. And she found me through my book. She finally realized my father`s middle name -- or didn`t realize that her mother told her my father`s middle name.
And when she Googled it, my book came up. And so, I still had to go further. We did the DNA and sure enough, my father had had an affair a couple of years before he married my mother and had impregnated a woman and had this girl, who`s now my sister.
PINSKY: And did this help certain things fall into place for you in any kind of intuitive way or can you relate to what Ellen has been reporting here tonight?
GAMMILL: I can relate a lot with what Ellen was saying with the way my sister, Chris, feels, that there was something that was never right, because she was given to her aunt. She was raised by her aunt and was told that her other -- her mother was her aunt. So, she intuitively felt her whole life that something was not right.
So, I can really relate to what Ellen was saying from Chris` point of view. I don`t know what it`s like to be an adoptee, but I have learned a lot. The breathlessness when I talked to her and the emotion to find a blood relative was very moving for her.
And then, in another twist, her son, which would be my father`s grandson, is struggling with intense binge alcoholism, and he`s actually living in the same state in Arizona where my father died in a DUI. And my father kind of in a strange way haunts me. I hear his voice sometimes in recovery meetings or I think I see his face in someone else`s face and I think it`s led me to this.
I mean, I could never do an intervention or help my parents that both died of addiction and alcoholism. But now, my father`s grandson is here, and I, in some strange way, feel that my father has been pushing me towards this family, this unknown family member.
I know that sounds a little weird, like that lady that`s on TLC that does all the afterlife stuff, but it definitely rocks your world when you find out you have a relative that you didn`t know that you had.
PINSKY: And, Ellen, you`ve been through -- you`ve been that person. And you`ve reconciled with your family and your parents?
O`NEILL: I have. And also as she was sharing about having her world rocked, for me, it was just the opposite. Things were always, you know, off. I wasn`t on balance. People say, you know, when your core gets rocked. When the truth came out, I started to become. You know, I don`t think when a person`s instincts match the facts that you can really find self.
PINSKY: Well, let me point something out for the viewers. Do not hide things from your children. When you hide things from your children, they take responsibility for the feeling they have of the presence of that secret. There must be something wrong with me. Joani, you`re shaking your head vigorously.
GAMMILL: Well, my husband and I were having an issue about something, and my son, who is high functioning autism, stood on the stairs and said what is the secret? He knew that we had been struggling with something. And it`s not that significant, but he knew as a child we were keeping something from him. And I`m like, he knew. He goes I want to know what the secret is.
PINSKY: Kids have perfect intuition. They are perfect. They don`t know what it is. They just know something is wrong. And what`s normal for a child, you two know this, Joani, you and Ellen know this as well, that they take responsibility. They feel like they`re causing it.
PINSKY: All right. Now, I`ve got to take a break. Now, how much time do I have after the break? Can you guys tell me in the control room? Oh, my goodness. I want to keep this conversation going. I have such limited time. I`m going to see if I can slip in a call and take a break right now.
PINSKY: Welcome back. Three percent of all children born in the U.S. are a product of extramarital affairs. Ellen, you wanted to make a comment.
O`NEILL: I did. I wanted to make a point that, you know, my parents -- my father died my best friend. I mean, I`ve forgiven my parents. We were very close. My mother is still alive. She has Alzheimer`s. They encouraged me to write the book and talk about this.
In spite of our circumstances, no matter what you`ve been raised with, what`s important is who you`ve become in spite of it, you know, and how you make a difference from your own life.
PINSKY: I think that is a great way to wrap up our conversation tonight. Joani, I know you`re shaking your head in agreement. Thank you, Joani, for telling sharing your story with us tonight. And Ellen, thank you to yours.
O`NEILL: Thank you.
PINSKY: Got a Sharon Curry (ph) Twitter. "Told in recovery you`re as sick as your secrets," which is something I say all the time. She also said "wow, surprised at your initial position." I think she`s talking about the beating I took in the first half of the program for having a bias that I didn`t know I had.
And so listen, changing one`s mind is one of the most powerful things you can do, and I think my mind was changed a little bit tonight. I hope yours was as well.
I want to thank all my guests. Thank you to Sunny Lane, Courtney Cross (ph), Ken Altshuler, -- I hope I get his last name right, Shelley Lubben, Areva Martin, again, Joani and Ellen as well. Ellen`s book is "Ellen Who?: Story Of A Secret Love Child."
Interesting program tonight. I think I was schooled. That`s all I can say. I think I was schooled a little bit. Thank you for calling. Thank you for watching. And just a quick reminder that it is, of course, Nancy Grace that starts right now.