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Students, Teachers & Sex; Deadly Family Secret
Aired October 22, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: It is "Monday Madness". Your chance to call in and tell us what`s bugging you. Give your opinion and speak out on our headline stories.
Starting with, a high school rocked by a competition where boys label girls on their sexuality. So why aren`t school officials coming down harder?
Then, a male teacher offered a female student extra credit if she posed in her underwear.
And a 27-year-old teacher had sex with her 17-year-old male student. Now, the couple says they`re in love and his parents are standing by them.
Students, teachers, and sex -- what is happening in our schools?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, as you see, we`ve got a new look, new name. We`re officially DR. DREW ON CALL. And that name is specifically designed to bring on the notion we want to hear from you all the time.
Again, our number is 855-373-7395. We`re live. Call in. We want you to be part of this conversation.
And we have a new way to kick off the week. Every Monday night, we`re going to start with "Monday Madness". What`s got your goat over the weekend? What`s got you nuts? What story are you dying to talk about?
We`re going to start with -- as you heard in that little piece -- sex, students and teachers.
With me to discuss, sex therapist Simone Bienne, TV personality Rolonda Watts, and Avo.com legal analyst, Lisa Bloom. And hopefully you, again, at 855-373-7395.
All right. Lisa, you ready to tackle these stories?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I`m ready. Let`s go.
PINSKY: OK. That first story was the story about the 25-year-old math teacher who admitted that he gave a 16-year-old his -- a pair of underwear and offered extra credit if she would pose in the underwear. You`re already steaming.
BLOOM: This makes me reconsider my opposition to the death penalty. I mean, this is disgusting. Are you kidding me? What kind of lesson is he giving to this 16-year-old girl, that it`s all about her sexuality?
It`s an abuse of power. I mean, it`s a form of statutory rape in my opinion, I mean, not legally, you know, morally.
BLOOM: He`s a teacher.
PINSKY: He`s a teacher. I agree with you.
BLOOM: What is he doing?
PINSKY: Simone, you have something to say to this, too?
SIMONE BIENNE, SEX THERAPIST: I agree with both of you actually, because if you cannot teach children healthy boundaries and that there is a trusting, loving relationship, you know in a professional sense, then what are they going to go away with? They`re going to start feeling bad about themselves. And quite, Lisa, it is disgusting.
And actually this should be made law.
PINSKY: What -- it is law as far as I know.
BIENNE: No, it isn`t. I was being tongue in cheek --
BIENNE: Not everywhere.
PINSKY: Simone, it`s going on a lot.
BIENNE: I came across some research which I found distressing. In the early 1990s, there was some research from North Carolina, high school graduates, and they were saying up to 13.5 percent of them had had sex with their teacher. You know, 13.5 percent.
And actually these women or the men are not necessarily getting off but actually have been probation. This is Lisa`s field. It isn`t good enough.
PINSKY: Rolonda, bail me out of this. I -- 13.5 percent of teachers with their student, it`s got my other guest excited. It`s got me very sad.
ROLONDA WATTS, TV PERSONALITY: Well, it`s got me very sad too considering I`m from North Carolina. That`s very sad.
But you know something? I do believe that`s a total misuse of power. It`s just totally inappropriate. And I think it really puts children in emotional harm. I think it`s a definite issue of power.
Now, the question is why are these -- why are these students going for this? I don`t know if that`s a power that turns kids on. I don`t know. But I think the teachers --
BLOOM: Let`s not blame the kid.
PINSKY: But a kid who is going to go for this is a kid who`s at risk. It`s kid who`s already been mistreated usually by an adult, usually by the parent.
BLOOM: Not necessarily. A lot of kids have crushes on their teachers, especially 16 year old. This is 100 percent the teacher`s fault, the teacher`s responsibility. Zero percent for teenager`s responsibility.
PINSKY: Wanda in Michigan -- Wanda, you want to come in here?
WANDA, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Wanda.
WANDA: I am absolutely sick and tired of teachers abusing their power that they have over our children. It`s really a double standard when it comes to women abusing and men abusing.
PINSKY: Yes. We hear it all the time. A young male is sexually abused by a female teacher, what we hear is, oh, what young male wouldn`t want that? Yet you know, you`ve done the research on it. The outcomes for the young males are awful.
BLOOM: Yes. They become very aggressive, even violent, a lot of lawbreakers, young males who were abused as males by an older female.
You know, there`s this ribbing and joking among guys, oh, I wish my teacher would have done that, ha-ha. But I represent a lot of these abused young men. It`s a very, very sad outcome. Angry for years.
BIENNE: And the point is male and female sexuality should be treated, exactly what you call I, it should be treated the same because if we applaud young men sort of stepping into their sexuality when they`re teenagers, then no wonder this can lead to them acting out and sort of being, you know, the number one guy on the school field. It`s not good.
PINSKY: You`re right, Simone. I don`t want to single out teachers here. These are generally people in positions of authority that misuse that authority, whether they`re in managerial positions, whether they are physicians, whether they are therapists.
People in authority do not do damage to the people they`re responsible for. In fact, part of the job is to hold the boundary when there is something that that student approaches them about.
Next up, a California high school discovers a secret sex club. It`s being run by male students who recruit female students into this through -- this is really weird. I can`t -- this is the wrong footage were looking at here.
That`s the -- which story should I do, control? You want me to do the cheerleader-teacher?
All right. I`m going to keep going with this. This is one that really killed me. This is a group that has like a fantasy football league for the girls.
BLOOM: You didn`t even say the word. They call it the fantasy slut club.
PINSKY: That is what they`re called it.
BLOOM: That`s what they`re called it. So, it`s totally insulting to the girls in the school. I hate that word.
PINSKY: My understanding it`s been going on for five years and the school knew about it and yet felt they couldn`t stop it.
BLOOM: So what`s going on is the male athletes in this school are getting points for the girls they sleep with that they designate as, quote- unquote, "sluts". So, again, the school knew about it for five years. They did nothing to protect the girls or the boys. It`s all the wrong message. It is sex equals conquest.
I mean, whatever happened to people being in love when they had sex? Am I a dinosaur?
PINSKY: Your breed is dying out, Lisa.
Go ahead, Simone. Do you have something to say?
BIENNE: It is so incredibly sad, because I see women day in, day out who fear that they are sluts and so shut down their sexuality which stops them from having decent, loving relationships, the kind that Lisa are talking about. And if the school knew about this, they should be speaking up.
Again, it is all what you say, Dr. Drew. The big people need to look after the little people.
WATTS: But I also think -- but I also believe that little people should stand up for little people too.
PINSKY: Well, in this case -- in this case, yes.
WATTS: Yes, what concerns me is the number of young girls who sign up to be sluts without getting points. I mean, that`s ridiculous to me.
And also the fact that nothing had been done for five or six years said that there`s some kind of heavy cloud over there that`s making the kids who may be against this afraid to speak up.
BLOOM: But let`s not call girls sluts, who are sexually active, because it`s such a demeaning term, you know? It makes girls feel so bad about themselves. You know, boys who are sexually active, they get a notch in their belt, they get points. Girls who are sexually active are humiliated.
WATTS: But these girls have signed up for this. That`s what disturbs me more than anything.
BIENNE: They do it for peer pressure. They don`t do it willingly.
WATTS: Peer pressure or no peer pressure, I`m not going to sign up to be a slut.
PINSKY: Thank you, Rolonda.
BLOOM: Girls like to have sex just like boys do.
WATTS: But they can have sex without signing up to be a slut.
PINSKY: Yes, but these days, you and I have talked about the fact that pornography has so much adulterated.
PINSKY: You were saying, why don`t people be in love, but then be sexually active.
PINSKY: But that doesn`t --
BLOOM: But let`s not demean girls who, someone at home, actually like to have sex. We have this idea in our culture that if a girl has sex, it`s all for the wrong reasons. Sometimes it`s what she chose.
BIENNE: Lisa, I totally agree with Lisa when she says that there are some women who love to have sex. Yet, but the fact is, if it is done in a loving relationship and that kind of context and where they feel safe, this is fine. Not where they feel under pressure, not where they feel like they have to be the top girl at the school. And if they`re not banging x-amount of football players, then they`re going to get bullied.
BLOOM: Yes, well, of course.
WATTS: And my concern is why didn`t the school do more?
PINSKY: That`s the thing, Rolonda. This went on at school. Why didn`t they do --
BLOOM: It`s an educable moment.
WATTS: And they`re saying that they cannot, you know, they can`t get the kids in trouble because they did something off campus.
PINSKY: Right. This happened --
WATTS: But what are they teaching about integrity? What are they teaching about self-esteem?
BLOOM: And how about notifying the parents, so the parents can jump in and work their kids?
PINSKY: I didn`t know there was a mark between what went on six feet off campus, or home, versus actually on the campus. The fact is our schools are responsible for the care and well being --
BIENNE: And having a conversation with the parents. As you as a father, wouldn`t you want to know if something like this was going on?
PINSKY: Absolutely. Something fishy -- I got to tell you, something fishy about the whole story. I can`t believe this school knew about this and didn`t do anything.
BLOOM: I`d be hopping mad if this was my kids and wasn`t notified.
WATTS: I would like to see how many have complained before this and it turned and got a deaf ear turned on them.
PINSKY: Let me throw a stick of dynamite into this. I`m just thinking about whether or not -- what it would have been like to be a 16- year-old male myself in the middle of all that. How would a 16-year-old male -- if that was deeply indoctrinated in that culture, how would a 16- year-old male resist that or not getting caught up in it?
BLOOM: You know, the boys are taught that sex is just about points. It`s about conquest.
PINSKY: Unless somebody --
BIENNE: This is very degrading. This is about power. This isn`t about sex. This is about an abuse of girls. This is no --
PINSKY: It is about abuse of girls. It`s about a mob mentality in the boys. The boys are getting caught up into this thing. Unless somebody -- an adult stops it, potentially it keeps going.
Next up, you saw that footage of the cheerleader. Maybe you can show that footage again. She`s a cheerleader who turned teacher named Sarah Jones. There she is. And her former student tells NBC News -- now they`re in love.
But he was a minor when they had sex. He`s now 18. Does the fact they are now in a relationship make it OK? Apparently the parents, his parents, signing off on this. We`ve got a lot to say about it when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH JONES, TEACHER: And if you can love someone at their lowest, that says a lot. He says, Sarah you look so beautiful in your mug shot. And I know that`s how I know he really loves me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Twenty-seven-year-old Sarah Jones was a cheerleader, then she became a teacher who fell in love with her student. He`s now 18 and told NBC they are in fact in love.
Sarah Jones pleaded guilty to sexual misconduct and custodial interference. Lisa, you`ll have to tell me what that is in a second.
She is not going to jail. His parents even supported her during the trial. He resists being called a victim. What is this custodial interference?
BLOOM: Interference with the parents` ability to raise their children. I think that`s what that means.
PINSKY: Now, look -- why does anybody contemplate that now it`s OK because they are in love now? Anybody?
BLOOM: I`ll take that one. I will. You know what? He`s 18 years old. Your 18 in the eyes of the law.
PINSKY: But he wasn`t 18 when this happened.
BLOOM: No, and I didn`t like when it happened. I`ve been hard on her. We talked about that.
But he`s 18 years old. He`s an adult. They`re now consenting adults. And frankly it`s none of my business anymore. That`s my perspective.
WATTS: She did admit --
PINSKY: Rolonda, you in on that too?
WATTS: Well, you know what? Cupid is a funny thing. And I think the mistake she made was being a teacher and he was 17 underage. OK, being 18, you know, that`s -- I agree. That`s their business.
PINSKY: Simone, Simone, how is this any different -- how is this any different than the stories we were talking about before?
BIENNE: It is no different, and just because it`s a woman we can`t treat her any differently. Listen, when women have and female educators abused their power like this, it can be either because they`ve been sexually abused or it can`t be just because they don`t feel for whatever reason that they can have the normal power in a relationship with somebody their age.
And so they do see it however diluted it sounds as a loving, consensual relationship. That`s why they have power over these young men.
BLOOM: But, Simone, I love you, I agree with you. I think she should lose her teaching license, which she has.
PINSKY: OK, but now --
BLOOM: But now he`s 18, what would you do? Have the long arm of the law go in and say you`re not able to have a relationship?
PINSKY: Oh, I`m not saying that.
BIENNE: I would have, Lisa, you know, I would hire somebody like you to grab her butt and make sure that she never practices again.
BLOOM: So far as a lawyer I haven`t been able to grab people and say you can`t have this love relationship with another adult. I mean, we don`t do that in this country.
PINSKY: Let me get a caller in here. Is it Marjean or Mary Jean?
MARJEAN, CALLER FROM OHIO: Marjean.
PINSKY: Marjean, what`s going on? Ohio, what`s up?
MARJEAN: First of all, he was 17. He was a minor.
MARJEAN: Second of all, how would it have been if this was a male teacher, male cheerleader?
PINSKY: Marjean, that`s exactly what we are saying. We did a story a few minutes ago with a guy that was giving special grades if somebody took a picture or something. People were outraged about this one. But this one forms a relationship with 17 year old, and well, what we`re going to do, they`re in love now.
BLOOM: No. It`s because he`s 18 now.
WATTS: And she left the husband for this kid.
PINSKY: David in Canada -- Canada, what do you want to say here?
BLOOM: And it`s never going to last.
DAVID, CALLER FROM ONTARIO: Hi, Dr. Drew. Your panel tries to paint everybody as a victim. Well, this case clearly demonstrates not everybody is a victim.
And I`ll tell you this, ladies, if that had happened to me when I was in high school, I would have thanked my lucky stars.
BIENNE: Here we go. But it didn`t happen to you so you don`t know.
PINSKY: But it doesn`t happen to the Davids in the world and they end up OK. The guys that it happens to end up with difficulties, end up with the outcomes are bad. It`s substance abuse --
BIENNE: It`s abuse of power. It is an abuse of power. And the problem I have with, Lisa, is the parents, because the parents are supporting this and saying this is OK.
It is not.
BLOOM: Yes. But, you know, listen, I`ve written a book about parenting. Parenting boys in particular, called "Swagger."
And I can tell you the quickest way to get two people who are young and love together is to tell them they can`t be together. So, if this were my 18-year-old son, I`d say, you know what? Go ahead. Have fun. I`ve been looking up my watch, I give them six months, it`s going to be over.
PINSKY: Guys, I`ve got to break. Simone, Simone, I`m going to hold you up in a second. But let me just be very, very clear. We`re goofing around a bit here.
But just look it up yourself if you have any question about this. I know a lot of Davids out there who just called us from Canada who think this would have been the greatest thing. The data bears out something totally different. The data bears out that males who are involved in these kinds of illicit relationships with women in power, teachers, otherwise -- personality disorders, substance abuse, criminal behavior, way up.
Now, is it because those kids started out with that liability and it`s something about a teacher being with a younger person, that they`d prey on somebody with some liabilities? It doesn`t matter. It increases the outcomes negative. It`s been my experience. I`ve worked with these kinds of kids for a long time.
Next up, breaking news -- researchers find -- guess what? -- sex addiction is a genuine disorder. Shocking. What do you think -- 855-373- 7395. Be right back.
PINSKY: Now, I have been working with these disorders for a long time. I actually did an entire reality television series about what it`s like to treat people with this condition. Now, UCLA researchers are coming to the conclusion -- guess what? -- sex addiction is a legitimate mental disorder.
On my show "Sex Rehab", Nicole Narain spoke openly about it. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICOLE NARAIN, SEX REHAB: I don`t want this to dictate really my life or who I am, but I really feel I am a beautiful disaster. So I just figure, I`d write, in this moment, my inner child runs wild. Pain in my eyes is what you can`t see because of my smile. Beautiful disaster is what I am. Bruised and scarred.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And I`ll tell you. When you see this disorder, when you really see people that are afflicted with it, it`s not subtle. It`s not something you question whether or not exists. And often in women, we were just looking at a young lady with this disorder, it comes from severe childhood sexual trauma.
Simone, you agree with me?
BIENNE: Yes, absolutely. And I`m glad that finally this is going to be recognized, which is an area that you, Dr. Drew, of course, have been working in for such a long time. It`s incredibly sad. It`s incredibly stressing.
People think because it`s sex and because celebrities want a get out of jail, you know, free card --
BIENNE: -- oh, yes, I`m an sex addict. Maybe some of them are.
But actually, when it really, really affects someone, they can lose their job. They can`t maintain a relationship and they are craving to be close to somebody and they are as you know, Dr. Drew, full of shame and come from a bad place.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right there. The people that are -- having these close connections physically with all these people will say the same thing. All I want is a real relationship.
BLOOM: But can I just ask you a question? Do you think some people do take advantage of the loophole?
BLOOM: These bad people and they say, oh, I`m addict, so I need a pass?
PINSKY: Well, bad people is a pretty broad term --
BLOOM: Well, cheating on their wives.
PINSKY: Yes, just like shopping addiction and eating addiction, these behavioral addictions are very dicey to deal with. You can use the term addiction too broadly as opposed to when somebody really loses control and is really having profound consequences.
Cyndi in Kentucky, you want to say something here?
CYNDI, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Hi, Dr. Drew. Thanks for taking my call.
CYNDI: I don`t think it`s a sexual addiction. I think it`s a hormonal imbalance, just like libido --
PINSKY: Wait, Cyndi, what does that even mean? What does hormonal -- that`s not a term that means anything to me, hormonal imbalance. What hormone and exactly biology, what mechanism? And what exactly does it do to the brain?
BLOOM: Oh, boy.
CYNDI: I just think that something in the brain is not working correctly.
PINSKY: I totally agree with you and that`s what makes an addiction an addiction. That`s people -- because it is a part of the brain called the medial forebrain bundle, that`s a part, beneath consciousness that sets up a drive, a system that cannot be withstood.
In fact, all of the rest of the systems serve that drive. So, your thinking, your reasoning all those good things that we use normally to make good judgments, becomes a part of the liability of this distorted motivation.
Do I have to take a break here? There`s something in the control room. Oh, I can keep going.
Somebody was ready to speak there. Who was that?
BIENNE: It was me, Dr. Drew. I just about to say, Lisa made a good point earlier and perhaps this is where your caller Cyndi was coming from, in the sense that people band this label around because it`s sex addiction. And there are men who go and cheat for cheating`s sake, not because of their sex addiction, and then they get caught out and then they have very good publicists who say, oh, he`s a sex addict.
So, there`s a clearly defined distinction between somebody who cheats for the opportunity because they can because they`re a sports player and somebody who feels bad about themselves, who feel bad about the sexual act and crave intimacy.
BLOOM: So, are you saying we can do a brain scan of a guy who`s cheating on his wife? He says, I`m a sex addict, don`t blame me.
PINSKY: And can we tell the difference?
BLOOM: And tell if he really has a biological problem?
PINSKY: I believe there will be a time we could do something like that. That makes sense to me.
BLOOM: That would be a good thing.
WATTS: The good thing, though, Dr. Drew, about it being called a mental illness or is coming out as clarified as that is it gives a person who is suffering, it removes that silence perhaps and may help people recognize what they`re suffering from.
PINSKY: Right. You`re responsible for your treatment, not your condition. But if you let it go uncheck.
Cyndi, are you still there?
PINSKY: Did you have a family member or something that sort of had this condition? Or --
CYNDI: Yes, (INAUDIBLE) in my marriage, my husband had read porn and called the 1-800 girly numbers on the phone. And it hurt like it wasn`t fair. I don`t think people realize what this is doing to the person that they`re with or married to.
PINSKY: Well, absolutely. Listen, the fact is that -- this is getting complicated -- but when somebody is involved with somebody who is addicted to sex or pornography, there`s a reason you`re with that person. And so, it`s a couple disorder. Oftentimes you have to treat both people. They can end up in a better place.
I heard --
BLOOM: But you`re not saying it`s her fault.
PINSKY: I`m not saying it`s her fault. It`s absolutely not her fault. The one who betrayed her is not responsible for it, but there`s a reason you`re with that guy.
BLOOM: I would feel the same way if my guy was watching porn all the time and calling those numbers. It is a form of cheating. It is a form of --
PINSKY: It is a liability. It is a violation of sorts, but it`s not about you. It`s about that guy`s condition.
BLOOM: That`s the hard thing to understand.
PINSKY: That`s the hard thing. I just heard Fergie from Black Eyed Peas, her husband was saying, he got caught cheating, Josh Duhamel is the name. And he got caught cheating and he was saying, you know, I`m so glad that happened. We had a problem and we didn`t know it. Now we`re in a much better place.
BLOOM: He`s glad he got caught cheating?
PINSKY: That`s what he said. I heard him say it.
WATTS: You know a lot of people who get caught cheating wanted to get caught cheating.
BIENNE: And in my experience, the other thing that can highlight and flush out the problems they were experiencing prior to the cheating, they can end up in a stronger marriage if both are prepared to do the work.
BLOOM: How about they keep their pants on? Is that so much to ask?
PINSKY: Lisa, like I said -- hang on, guys.
PINSKY: Hang on, guys. Got to take a break. Lisa, like I said your type is dying out.
BLOOM: I guess so. Old school.
PINSKY: So old fashion.
More "Monday Madness". Call us, 855-DRDREW5. Be right back.
PINSKY: OK. We were discussing sex addiction here. And I was talking about it off the break, and my staff asked me to share with you all what I was just saying during the break. Sometimes, the best television occurs when the commercials are on. And what I was that you use the term nymphomania. I think many people out there have heard that name.
That`s not a term that`s used anymore. We talk about sexual addiction, sexual acting out, sexual compulsions. And sex addiction is something that is obvious when it occurs. If you remember I`ve had a guest on this program. She was on the sex rehab show we did. Her name is Jenny Catcham (ph). She has a book called "Becoming Jenny." If you want to read about what is like to overcome this disorder.
She spent pretty much all day, either engaging some kind of solo or partner of sexual act and then doing pornography and was miserable and came on our program. Even though she`s miserable, she came on our program, "Sex Rehab," to exploit the show. She intended to screw with our show and destroy. She was going to draw pictures. She had all these big plan.
But when she came in and we started addressing her as Jenny, not "Penny Flame," she just opened up and realized that she had so much pain and that we were trying to sort of approach her as a human being. And what happens in treatment, these sex addicts often will see themselves a sex addict as like a rampaging monster, like she described the sex addict in them as a monster.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY, THEBLOOMFIRM.COM: So, that`s the difference between somebody who just really likes sex a lot and a sex addict.
PINSKY: A sex addict wants to stop. They lose joy in the act that should bring joy and they are out of control. They have consequences, and they`re wanting to stop and they can`t. It`s very difficult. As often other addictions are involved with it as well. Rolanda, you were saying something before the break. I didn`t let you really finish. Did you want to finish your thought there?
ROLANDA WATTS, TV PERSONALITY: I was just saying that I was just happy that at least in them actually clarifying this as a mental disorder, the people who are suffering in silence at least have a leg to hang on there. I think that it`s going to bring a lot more awareness to this disorder. And also, like the lady pointed out, there are so many other people other than the person who`s the actual sexual addict, there are other people who are involved. There are families that are involved, relationships that are involved.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s right.
WATTS: So, I think it is important that some clarification comes to it. I think this country is so afraid of sex that we romanticize it in an absurd way. And I think that it`s catching up with us whether it`s the teachers or whether it`s the sex addicts. Sex is -- it`s everywhere.
PINSKY: Yes, Rolanda. Rolanda, I want to say your point is well taken. We romanticize the excesses in love and romance. Romeo and Juliet was a story about two very disturbed young people who end up dead. If that were my patients, I would get sued.
PINSKY: That is not a good outcome. That is not the ideal of romance. No, Lisa, I`m not kidding.
BLOOM: But it was also a fiction. You know, maybe we can use as an opportunity to say talk to your kids about sex, demystify it, right?
PINSKY: You`re right.
BLOOM: And expand your mind to people who are different sexually like sex addicts.
PINSKY: You`re absolutely correct. I`ve got to go. There`s love addiction, too. We can talk about that on another day. I know --
BLOOM: I believe in love. I think that`s the theme tonight.
PINSKY: OK. This addiction is a real phenomenon. When you see, it`s obvious what it is. It`s not something that can be really -- it`s not -- when you see it and come across it, you will not want to debate whether or not it exists. Thank you, Lisa Bloom, Rolanda Watts, and Simone Bienne for our first Monday madness episode.
Next, we`re going to go on to a new topic. We recently had the women of a show "Mob Wives," but tonight, we`re talking -- there they are. Oh, my goodness. There`s Big Ang. We`re talking about women who have a very different take on living with a criminal in the family.
PINSKY: A couple weeks ago, we were joined by Big Ang and Renee Graziano, and some of the other women who star in "Mob Wives," but tonight, our guests have a very different experience of living with a criminal. Melissa Moore`s father was known as the happy face killer. He was a serial killer who brutally murdered at least eight women. Melissa is author of the book, "Shattered Silence," Melissa Moore. Now, Melissa, you grew up with your dad. What is the first thing that you remember that lets you know that things weren`t quite right?
MELISSA MOORE, AUTHOR, "SHATTERED SILENCE": When I was about five years old, we lived in Yakima, Washington in a really rural place. And there would be stray animals that would come on to our property. And my father would brutally kill them. And, as a little girl, I knew something was wrong. I didn`t feel that was right.
But the response that I got from the adults around me was startling because they swept it under the rug. They didn`t think -- they acted like it wasn`t a big deal. And, so, that gave me mixed messages that what my dad was doing was either -- that it was right. But it still didn`t feel right. So, it made me feel like something was wrong with me. But, that was the first thing.
The second thing would be his verbal abuse and his odd behavior. He had weird boundaries. And what I mean by weird boundaries is, as a teen, when I got older, he would talk about his explicit sex life to me and share details that I wouldn`t want to know. And, I won`t say it on camera right now some of the things he would say.
But, I mean, even up until a couple of years ago, he would send me letters and the stationary was pictures of nude women. And I`m going to cover up, but I`ll kind of show you. But, I mean, complete -- it`s covered.
MOORE: I mean, it was ridiculous. That`s not what a dad sends to his daughter. And, that is just one of the examples of what he would do.
PINSKY: Are you ever concerned that this genetics which I know many people believe this is a psychopathy, believe in psychopath here, that psychopathy is something that is genetically transmitted. Are you worried that you or your children could, perhaps, be stricken with this?
MOORE: I used to. I was really scared. I was scared, because I look like my dad more than my mom. I have some of the traits that my dad had, some positive ones. For example, like I have a good memory, but not the negative ones. I do have empathy and I care.
But I did care even more when I had children because I wondered with my son and with my daughter, would there be anything passed on to them if it skipped like a generation. So, I was really nervous until I met with professionals that told me that I was going to be OK and my kids would be OK, because there`s no -- there hasn`t been anything done or proof that another serial killer has given birth or (INAUDIBLE).
PINSKY: Let`s go to Cassidy in Texas -- Cassidy.
CASSIDY, TEXAS: Hey, Dr. Drew.
CASSIDY: OK. First off, I am a victim of abuse in two different ways. My father was extremely emotionally, physically abusive. He broke my ribs when I was three. He threw me in the closet and made me beg for my mother`s life. My husband is an alcoholic, emotionally and mentally abusive.
And I guess the question that I`m trying to ask is I have a three- year-old, and even though me and my dad`s relationship is better, I know that he can feel the resentment that I have towards my father.
PINSKY: Cassidy, I get it. Let me just say that being in a -- having a parent who`s physically abusive is quite different than what we`re talking about today. This is not necessarily a psychopath. A psychopath is somebody who kills mercilessly without any regard for the other person, who has a lack of empathy for other people in all areas.
As you heard, Melissa`s father sending her inappropriate pictures, talking weird stories about his sexuality.
When you have a parent that is physically abusive, lo and behold, the biggest one -- if you can tolerate -- not, you know, if you don`t become an alcoholic yourself because you`ve been so shattered emotionally, low and behold, the thing that tends to happen is, you tend be attracted to another male, in your case, because just like your father who ends up reenacting the same phenomenon all over again.
And this is what we call the cycle of abuse. And so, yes, your children are at risk of continuing the cycle of abuse by either being a victim or victimizer. And so, it is something to begin to get professional help with for you and your child immediately.
I want to ask you Melissa. When you first found out your dad was this so-called -- what is it, the happy face killer? I almost can`t get the names straight. Somehow, she doesn`t something -- somehow, Happy Face doesn`t ring true for me.
MOORE: It`s an ironic name.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s right. What did you think when you first heard that your dad was that guy?
MOORE: Well, at first, I didn`t hear that he was a serial killer. At first, I heard that he was in jail for murder of his fiancee, Julie Winningham (ph). And that along was shocking. We learned gradually over the months that there was more to the story than just the one murder which was obviously horrific at the one, but we found out that he was involved with the Tonya Bennett (ph) case which they had already captured the supposed killers.
And so, that was a big fiasco. There was trials. I mean, it was a long -- it wasn`t a short period of time. It was a long going thing. And, that was in a way kind of a blessing in disguise. I don`t know how I would have been able to handle it even more if it was just thrown into my lap all at once?
PINSKY: Right. I can understand that. Now, we`re going to next speak to a woman who is haunted by the memory of watching her mother kill her step-father. Stay with us. More with Melissa as well and your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIMBERLY WOHLERT, MOM ASKED HER TO HELP MURDER STEPDAD: She got real quiet and she just put her cigarette out and looked at me and said it`s time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is another chilling psychopath story. This time, a female, Kimberly Wohlert was just 12-year-old when, get this, her mother asked her to help her kill her stepfather. There`s Kimberly. In fact, mom wanted little Kimberly to actually pull the trigger. Kimberly is the author of "Unworthy." Kimberly, take us through that experience. That must just have been unbelievable for a 12-year-old.
WOHLERT: Yes, it was unbelievable. Yes. I think back now, I can`t even imagine any parent asking their child to do such a thing.
PINSKY: And tell me about the title of your book. Who is it that`s unworthy? Or is that just how you felt with this incredible black secret hanging over you.
WOHLERT: That`s how I felt. That`s how I was treated, like, I didn`t matter, like I could just be -- I mean, she tried to offer me up on a silver platter to the police. Blame it on her 12-year-old daughter.
PINSKY: And my understanding is she ended up killing your father and then did she make you help her dispose of the body?
WOHLERT: It was my stepfather. She initially wanted me to pull the trigger and then when I refused, she had me put my hands over her ears. And after she shot him, she made me help her pull him down the hall and put him in the trunk.
PINSKY: What did she do with the body?
WOHLERT: Her and my brother buried it in the backyard a day or two later.
PINSKY: And then she just went on as though nothing had happened?
WOHLERT: Yes. Started dating a few weeks later. Married him a few months later than that.
PINSKY: Melissa, I want to go back to you. Do you have -- I mean, you guys have had these extraordinary experiences of being with psychopathic parents. Is there anything you would want to know from Kimberly or share with her?
MOORE: That it`s not -- you are worthy. That what your mother did had nothing to do with you. And I`m sure you`ve come to that conclusion. And it was a road for me. I mean, I just started sharing what happened to me about four years ago. And I have tons of journal entries that`s saying I`m hiding this shame.
I feel like I deserve it. That`s I`m worthy -- I mean, not worthy of being around other people, that I`m somehow inferior to other people because of how and what my life was like, my past. And I would hide it because I was afraid of the judgment from other people.
PINSKY: I want to go now to a doctor who has expertise on psychopath, Dr. Helen Morrison. Dr. Morrison, help us understand what is going on in the brain of these individuals and what the genetic potential is.
VOICE OF DR. HELEN MORRISON, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, one of the things about a psychopath is they have absolutely no conscience. They`re manipulative. They will use anything and anyone to get to their own end and the goal. And, what happens is that we do know that psychopaths are not genetically pre-disposition. Just because you have a psychopathic parent doesn`t mean that you are going to be a psychopath or your children will be.
We also know, for example, that the worst psychopaths in the world, serial killers, have absolutely no family relatives either before or after that have committed the same types of crimes. We also know that brains of psychopaths show abnormalities, but we don`t know necessarily what those abnormalities mean.
Just because we can see something on special testing doesn`t mean that that`s what`s causing the behavior.
PINSKY: Any theories about why these brains become abnormal? Are they hit by a virus when they were a kid? Is there a generic alteration or just some kind of trauma or just serendipity?
MORRISON: It`s serendipity. We don`t know -- we can`t tell that there is some injury prenatally before the baby is born or at birth, but we do know that these personalities are born that way and continue to act that way.
PINSKY: Is there anything that -- you know, it seems to me that these two daughters of psychopaths I`m speaking to today, harbor it seems like guilt and shame.
MORRISON: Well, of course. I mean, how can you not? Because they have a conscience. They know what was right. They know what was wrong. Unfortunately, their parents didn`t care about what was right or wrong. They just did the actions because they chose to make those actions, and their children are paying the price.
PINSKY: Let`s get a call from a viewer. Pamela in Alabama. Pamela, you want to ring in here?
PAMELA, ALABAMA: Yes, Dr. Drew. Thank you so much for giving me this moment. I turned my show on, I can totally relate. My biological father was a serial killer. He kidnapped me at the age of 19 and drugged me and everything. But my question is how do I move on? I have a mental disability myself.
PINSKY: I`m sure.
PAMELA: And I wonder, you know, if this is something that might be genetic, the things that go through my mind and what I`ve gone through. Does it get passed down the line?
PINSKY: Pamela, I`m going to stop you. I want to hold you across this commercial break. I`ll have -- I will talk to you. Dr. Morrison will talk to you. We just heard that it does not -- Dr. Morrison was just telling us it does not have a direct familial genetic linkage, although I have heard of there been two or three sort of generations removed there`s some evidence about that.
I`ll talk to Dr. Morrison about that. And Pamela, we`ll talk to you about what you do to get over this unbelievable history. Be right back.
PINSKY: Kim Wohlert and Melissa Moore had psychopathic parents. And then, Pamela called in and could relate to the story. She had a psychopathic dad who actually kidnapped her and drugged her and beat her. And Pamela, you were asking how to get over -- first, you asked if there was a genetic potential for you.
We were talking to Dr. Morrison. We`re saying no. But you`re wondering also how to get over the trauma your dad inflicted, is that right?
PAMELA: Correct. You know, I have a son now that`s 14. His name`s Jayden. And when he was younger, I found out he was ADHD. But before I found that out, I was scared of his behavior that I`ve actually went and --
PAMELA: -- to doctors to find out if this is genetic.
PINSKY: No, it`s not genetic. Dr. Morrison, in about 20 seconds, can we tell here what can be done for these horrible traumas that she`ll have to work on for probably many if not her whole life.
PINSKY: Hold on Pamela. Go ahead, Dr. Morrison.
MORRISON: Find yourself a therapist who is an expert in post- traumatic stress disorder. That`s what you`re suffering from.
PINSKY: Yes. PTSD is something we hear about these days from people who are turning for more. It is something from the kind of chronic exposure you`ve had Pamela. It takes a very long time to deal with. It`s really reconnecting you back to your emotions, your body, and the ability to trust other people. It`s not something that we can do with in just a couple of seconds on television. You want to finish that?
PAMELA: Right. And I`ve been in therapy for 32 years and still going on today.
PINSKY: Good. Good. Well done.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Melissa.
MOORE: You can move on and you can heal. My life is in a good place now. It wasn`t before because I kept it a secret. And I didn`t talk about it, didn`t get therapy. And I can guarantee that if you started to go and --
PINSKY: Melissa, I`ve got to interrupt you. I`ve got a run, but it`s an excellent point. I want to thank you. You`ve written the book called "Shattered Silence," and also, Kimberly Wohlert wrote "Unworthy." Her story can be seen on "Investigation Discovery: In The Devil You Know," which airs at 10:00 p.m.
And remember tomorrow night, I`ll have Honey Boo Boo and her mom, June, right here plus an update on tan mom, some surprising outcome from that interview. Honey Boo Boo right here. And "Nancy Grace" right there, now.