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Sex & Drugs in the Courtroom

Aired October 24, 2012 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Sex, crime, addiction. We have it all tonight.

Stevie Crecelius was married with six kids when a trip to the emergency room gave him the shock of his life.

STEVIE CRECELIUS: The nurse is reading the ultrasound and says, huh, this says you`re female.

PINSKY: He is actually a she. Stevie had been born with male and female sex organs. A penis and testicles but also vagina, uterus, and ovaries.

Now, Stevie lives as a woman but she`s still married to wife, Debby. They share a home and even sleep in the same bed. They`re here to tell their incredible story.

And transgender advocate Nina Arsenio (ph) on the tragedy of children who grow up feeling like they are in the wrong body.

Also, a married Tennessee judge could be headed to prison for buying drugs and having sex in his own courtroom. Now, the family of a murder victim is furious that their son`s killers might go free because the judge is a drug addict.

Two fiery stories -- so let`s get started.



PINSKY: With me tonight is Judge Lynn Toler, host of "Divorce Court" and author of "Making Marriage Work: New Roles for an Old Institution."

Judge, we`ve got to talk about this Tennessee judge. He was alcoholic. He was such a severe alcoholic he developed something called chronic calcific pancreatitis, which is an inflammation of the pancreas, very painful. He then became addicted to opioid painkillers. Then he got caught buying drugs and having sex with the -- I think it was the defendant or --

JUDGE LYNN TOLER, DIVORCE COURT: It was a defendant. Somebody in his drug program, yes.

PINSKY: In his court.


PINSKY: Now, I`ve got to tell you something, looking at this guy, oh, I have so many feelings about this judge. You tell me yours.

TOLER: I think he should have his head handed to him. He did such damage, not only to the people in his district --

PINSKY: So decapitation. Off with his head?

TOLER: It is the ultimate judicial crime, is it not, to deal with your defendants and commit felonies with your defendants.

PINSKY: It`s mind bending.

TOLER: It`s -- you can`t get past it.

PINSKY: Judge, I`m going to say something very unpopular, though. I`ve treated judges. I`ve treated them and seen them behave in ways not a lot different than this and felt bad for them. As my patient, I`ve had sympathy for them, empathy for them.

TOLER: And I understand that. And as people, you should feel bad for them. But as public officials, you should not.

We are allowed to do extraordinary things. He can take someone`s life, legally. He can say, you have been found guilty, you will now die. Therefore, he has an obligation beyond that of regular people.

PINSKY: All right. I agree with that. So why don`t judges police themselves? Why didn`t attorneys report this guy? To be sick long enough with alcoholism to have chronic calcific pancreatitis, this had to be going on a decade. Why doesn`t the legal system police itself the way medical -- the way physicians and nurses have to police themselves?

TOLER: A bit of arrogance, I would say.

PINSKY: That`s not OK with me.

TOLER: No, absolutely not OK.

PINSKY: That`s like saying doctors -- somebody`s going to die because a doctor has got -- listen, now in hospitals, if a doctor puts a chart down too hard and seems angry, he or she gets reported to the wellbeing committee, they`ve got to show up and explain themselves. Why don`t judges have something like that?

TOLER: I think -- well, judges do have -- they have obligations. They have ethics. They can go to the Supreme Court and say, hey, you`ve been bad.

You`re not even supposed to have the appearance of impropriety. So, you can`t go out drinking with the boys because that appears improper.

I will say this, though. We can be an arrogant bunch and we -- and we feel a comrade among ourselves, as any large institution does. But there is an arrogance about it because you`re always the final word in any room that you`re in. And it is a failure on the part of the judiciary. I will say that.

PINSKY: So the old boy network protects itself?

TOLER: It does. And I made a --

PINSKY: Are you part of that?

TOLER: Well, you know, I upset a room full of 100 judges in Columbus. I came back and said each and every one of you are prejudiced. And, you know, what do you mean? What do you mean?

And I said, you know, when a young black -- because it`s mostly white -- when a young black man comes in front of you, he smarts off and he boasts, what is your response to that? Is it he`s a statistic, or there but for the grace of God goes my son. And everybody got upset.

But judges say they believe their own rhetoric about them being beyond human in their ability. It is a frightening thing. It`s frightening thing.

PINSKY: That`s how we ended up with the Watergate situation, we had a government who thought they were above the law.

Let`s go to Linda in Colorado. Linda, what`s up?


PINSKY: Linda.

LINDA: I`m -- I`m just outraged that a judge could have gotten away with this for so long and that nobody reported him. It`s just -- I can`t understand how that would have happened. A drunk judge? And what happens to all those filings, all the decisions he made?

PINSKY: Well, let me -- let me take an alternative position and say, Linda, maybe this is a man with a bad disease. What if he had a brain tumor? What if he had a brain tumor that made him behave in ways that were bizarre? Wouldn`t we have sympathy for this guy? We`d go, oh, such a mess, but he was sick, what are we going to do?

LINDA: I would have to say, yeah, he`s sick, but somebody should have noticed and reported him.

PINSKY: So Linda`s taking my position, it should have happened earlier. Once he got so sick he had no more insight, couldn`t control himself, maybe --

TOLER: But judges don`t get to wait that long. You have to judge yourself every day before you take the bench, even if you`re in a bad mood. You have to settle that in your head before you sit in that chair, because you`re going to deliver it to somebody who has no immediate recourse.

PINSKY: Would you tell on somebody?

TOLER: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Who would you report it to?

TOLER: The Supreme Court.

PINSKY: The Supreme Court?

TOLER: Yes. The Supreme Court and they have -- they deal with that.

PINSKY: The Supreme Court of the United States --

TOLER: No, the Supreme Court of your state.

PINSKY: Deals with --

TOLER: Deals with judicial misconduct.

PINSKY: Is there going to be a hearing?

TOLER: Often do. They make a determination whether he should be censured, whether he should be disbarred, stepped down.

PINSKY: A lot of people`s lives are affected by people like this.

Dave in California -- Dave, you want to ring in?



DAVE: Listen, I think we`re being very harsh on the judge. I`m medically addicted to opiates.

PINSKY: Right.

DAVE: Society, itself, there`s a large segment of people I found out have this problem.

PINSKY: Yes, but they shouldn`t be flying an aircraft, they shouldn`t be practicing medicine and they shouldn`t be sitting on a judge`s --


DAVE: Well, I know that. But I`m saying, you know, we were great at focusing on them and putting them out, you know, for the media display. But we don`t look that mirror at ourselves.

PINSKY: Listen, I agree with you those people should -- somebody with these problems should be sympathized with. I have deep empathy for what`s going on. But I don`t want them flying my plane, I don`t want them doing surgery on my parents, I don`t want them sitting in the judge`s chair.

TOLER: Absolutely. And the damage he did is not just to the people he touched. He damaged all judges because the system works on their belief that we are fair and that the system is going to work, and when you see that, every judge is impacted by his failures in such a huge, magnificent, spectacular fashion.

PINSKY: Well, this is Judge Baumgartner we`re talking about. He convicted four people of killing a young man I`m going to show you on the screen in a second.

Now, those guys may go free. We`re going to hear from this young man`s mother.

And later, we have another star startling story. A man goes to the hospital, he was a cop one time in his career. There he was. He ultimately became a photographer.

He finds out at the hospital that night he has male and female sexual organs. Now he`s living as a woman. That woman next to him is his wife. They still sleep in the same bed. We`re going to talk to them.

Be right back.



RICHARD BAUMGARTNER, FORMER JUDGE: I take absolute and full responsibility for my conduct. I am solely at fault for what I have done. And I accept that. I deeply regret that I have brought disfavor on the judicial system.


PINSKY: I`m back with another judge, her name is Lynn Toler, host of "Divorce Court".

And that tape we just saw was former Tennessee Judge Richard Baumgartner. He stepped down from the bench in 2011, got treatment for prescription pill addiction.

I see this man, I feel bad for him. He is a drug addict. He`s doing -- engaged in behaviors that create profound circumstances, like every drug addict. I`m worried about the judicial system that didn`t step in sooner on this man`s behalf.

In the meantime, we have chaos. We have consequence everywhere for him and others.

TOLER: Yes. Once they did step in, however, they did so inappropriately.

PINSKY: Inappropriately?

TOLER: Yes, at the state level. All he got for misconduct, judicial misconduct was probation and judicial diversion. So if he didn`t get in any more trouble, he wasn`t convicted of anything. No felony.

PINSKY: What does he -- just a slap on the wrist?

TOLER: It was nothing.

PINSKY: Nothing?

TOLER: It was absolutely nothing. He stepped down. He got disbarred, but there was no real punishment.

PINSKY: Now, listen, I am sympathetic to this man`s plight. But I believe that actions have -- people have to clean up their side of the street when their disease creates consequences because it`s up to them -- he could have gotten treatment sooner, by the way.

TOLER: Right.

PINSKY: He could have done that, too. I still feel deep empathy for this guy and concerned people didn`t step in earlier and I`m concerned that there weren`t more consequences just because he was a judge.

TOLER: Yes. I think the judicial system has to show internal outrage, because absent internal outrage, it`s kind of like it`s OK because he was one of us. When he was on the bench at any time, we`d give the acid rain dance to a DUI guy. We would say, yes, I know you have alcoholism, but you don`t have the right to take the alcoholism and put it in a two-ton vehicle and run over people with it.

PINSKY: Judge Toler, I`m respectfully, deeply concerned about your profession.

TOLER: As am I. But I will say this. I know 200 good judges, great judges for every Baumgartner and almost a sign of a good judge is you never hear about them because they`re doing their business and they`re taking care of it.

PINSKY: Why can`t we hold judges -- why are physicians singled out, then, as we have to be policing ourselves as though we`re all bad and we have to be -- we`re on top of one another like you can`t believe. Somebody gets a little old, has a sneeze, has a little irritability, you`re going to wellbeing committee, you might not be ready to practice medicine.

TOLER: Part of it is because we`re a bit alone. You guys practice medicine in groups.

PINSKY: Not really.

TOLER: In hospitals.


TOLER: You run into each other. You`re a little (INAUDIBLE) when you`re a judge. Within those walls no other judge comes in there. So, there`s a sense you can do so much, go down farther down the slippery slope before someone can look into your window and say, you`re not doing it right.

PINSKY: Do judges start thinking they`re gods?

TOLER: I think -- I think all of humanity when you give them too much power, they get a little carried away with it. It`s what people do.

PINSKY: Did you ever feel that way?

TOLER: No. But I was shocked at what they let me do. At 33 years old, they put me on that bench. I won an election. I got no judicial training. They put me on that bench.

They stood up -- and you get that. It`s a bit of a rush the first couple times. Everyone must stand when you walk in the room.

PINSKY: You bet.

TOLER: You know, and your opinion is the only one that matters and everybody`s apologizing even when you make a mistake. And it`s so easy for that to get ahead of you. And my mother told me, don`t let that get out in front of you. You are the same person you were the day before.

PINSKY: Thank God for your mama.

TOLER: Yes, mama`s cool.

PINSKY: Well, let`s talk to someone on the phone who has had consequence as a result of this man`s behavior. Four of the defendants involved in the death of her 23-year-old son. This is another mom I`m thankful for. These were sentenced by Judge Baumgartner.

Here we are. Now, Mary, what happened to your son?

MARY NEWSOM, RETRIAL FOR SON`S KILLERS? (via telephone): My son was out on a date with his girlfriend. They were carjacked under gunpoint, taken to a house on Chipman Street where they were both raped and beaten.

She was given bleach poured down her so they could get rid of the DNA. She was stuffed in a garbage can and suffocated a day later. Chris was taken to the railroad tracks where he was shot three times and then set on fire.

PINSKY: Oh, my God, Mary. I wasn`t expecting this. I don`t know what to say. Let`s just say -- I don`t know what to say.

It`s that Baumgartner is going to create chaos -- these guys have been convicted of doing this. They are guilty.

NEWSOM: They are guilty. They are all behind bars right now.

However, because of Judge Baumgartner, we are facing retrial for all of them.

PINSKY: How do you face that probability of a retrial? How do you do it?

NEWSOM: You do it day by day. You don`t have a choice. You just have to do it.

We`re not happy about it at all. It`s -- we`re not happy with the justice system. We were disappointed and let down. And we`re just going to have to go through it again, and it`s the worst thing a parent has to face is a child`s death. And then to have to go through it --

PINSKY: Go ahead. Judge Toler? Hang on a second, Mary. I`m sorry.

Judge Toler?

TOLER: I just wanted to ask you how you feel about -- the jury convicted him. The judge did not convict him.

PINSKY: That`s right.

TOLER: So I would think -- at least I hope the judicial system at this point won`t just automatically overturn it and see if the quantity and quality of its evidentiary decisions were good enough that it doesn`t matter, because the conviction was made by the jury and not the man.

PINSKY: The excruciating part about this, though, is Mary and her family have to go through this again. I do hope the system works on their behalf. We`re going to get more of your calls.

Mary, stay with me. I may have calls for you as well.

Later on, I mentioned a trip to an emergency room led to a shocking discovery. This man, born male, cop, had female sex organs as well. He now is a she, still with his wife. Talk to his wife, himself, and his kids after this.


PINSKY: A judge misbehaving because of addiction has profound consequences. We are talking to Mary whose son brutally murdered with his girlfriend. The story was breathtaking. You guys have been raining us with calls.

Here`s John in New York. John, go ahead.

JOHN, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: This judge should be judged harshly for his behavior. Just as you see the problems he caused. This woman -- her son was murdered. He should be judged harshly for his behavior.

PINSKY: Mary, you`re still with us as well. Do you feel that way?

NEWSOM: No, I really don`t. I know what he did is terribly wrong, but during the trials, he made no mistakes.

PINSKY: But, Mary, you -- you endured something, like, 250 days in court. You had to go through these excruciating stories. I don`t know if I can repeat them, they sound so awful. You`re going to have to sit in court and hear this all again?

NEWSOM: Evidently, that`s what we`re going to do.

TOLER: Mary, what would you like to have happen to him? What -- I mean, you`ve been impacted more than anybody else. What would you like to see have happen to Judge Baumgartner?

NEWSOM: He definitely needs to be punished. He`s in court right now and just picked a jury for the court he`s in right now, and they`re going to do it over again and give him a punishment.

PINSKY: So there`s a criminal action being taken against him, I guess.

TOLER: There are, at a federal level.

PINSKY: What`s disappointing, Mary, is that there were no professionals -- I guess there were -- he was kicked off --

TOLER: He was kicked off the bench and disbarred, yes.

PINSKY: Is that the most that the state Supreme Court can --

TOLER: No, the state could have convicted him of a felony. They chose not to right away. But they diverted him. And it was really --

PINSKY: Diverted him? To treatment?

TOLER: No, diversion in that you plead guilty, but if you don`t get any trouble, we never find you guilty and it just goes away.

PINSKY: I see. I still wanted the guy treated, though.

Colleen in California, you got something for us?

COLLEEN, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Yes, I`m a court reporter from California for 14 years. I would just like to tell you that the judges that I`ve worked with which are innumerable are prejudiced, they are lawbreakers. They are addicted.

PINSKY: Colleen, hold on, now. You`re making some pretty profound allegations. I am stunned.

Do you -- can she report these things? What is she talking about?

TOLER: It`s difficult to report in that, especially for things like prejudice, how do you tell? Because they know better than to say, call you an "N" word on the bench, but --


PINSKY: Is this backstage stuff? Hang on. Colleen, is this backstage behavior --

COLLEEN: -- network here in California, and I can absolutely vouch for that. I would never call a judge "Your Honor". I call him judge.

PINSKY: Colleen, hold on now. Is this because of backstage behavior? Like off the bench?

COLLEEN: Absolutely. You can`t get out of their chambers, for one thing. The sexual abuse is unbelievable. They are just human beings. There`s no way there`s only one in 200 judges that`s falling into this category.

PINSKY: OK. Colleen, sit tight. I want to put you on hold and talk to you. Again, we don`t know you. These are pretty profound allegations. We`ll maybe talk little bit off the air here.

But she`s raising disturbing allegations. Does the profession have plans to police itself? That`s what I want to know.

TOLER: It polices itself, bullet I just don`t think it polices itself for the right things. There are a lot of extraordinarily good judges out there but it`s difficult -- you know, the appointment and the election system, most people don`t know the judges. There will be 40 judges on the list and I won`t know them all.

PINSKY: That`s interesting. When you talk to a British person, the idea we elect judges and elect sheriffs, that`s bizarre.

TOLER: It`s bizarre. It really is.

When I was elected judge, I was 33 years old. It was just about how many doors I hit. They didn`t know who I was. I put in a phone line that said call me to talk to me about my views. I put it on my literature. No one called.


Listen, I actually know some judges. They`re some of the best people I know. That is a fact. That is a fact. I know -- I`ve treated judges with addiction and felt very bad for them. When they get an illness, just like if they`d gotten a brain tumor while sitting on the bench, their behavior would be problematic.

Sue in Tennessee. Sue?

SUE, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Yes, Dr. Drew. I live in Knoxville. I watched most of this trial.

This was one giant cover-up from the prosecuting attorneys, from the states attorneys, the defense attorneys, the clerks. Everybody in that courtroom knew that he had a problem.

PINSKY: Why did they cover it up? What do you think?

SUE: It`s cronyism.

PINSKY: But you`re putting a bunch of people in as cronies, not just judges. You`re saying the prosecuting attorneys, the bailiffs, everybody`s in on it.

SUE: All the lawyers -- sure. They`re all in on it. If I knew, they had to know.

TOLER: I will say this. They probably did know. Some of it was cronyism. But some of it is fear. If you take a shot at the head guy and you miss, you have a problem.

You could lose your job. You have an unfriendly bench to deal with. So unless you have proof and you`re comfortable with that proof, people are always assessing the damage that they will do themselves before they report. It`s not a good reason not to report, but that`s what people do.

PINSKY: Wow. Thank you. Listen, everybody that called in, thank you. I am troubled by this topic, both because I have sympathy for people that get sick and who can`t do their jobs. I have sympathy for all the wonderful judges I know, including yourself. And I`m very disturbed by some of the allegation we hear today.

We`re going to go to a different topic now. Imagine this -- you`re going to the hospital for kidney stones that`s called nephrolithiasis. Get an ultrasound on your kidneys which is standard procedure and, lo and behold, you have both sets of sex organs, male and female.

That is what happened to this gentleman. He is now a she but still married to his wife. We`re going to talk about them and their relationship when we get back.



PINSKY: Stevie Crecelius was married with six kids when a trip to the emergency room gave him the shock of his life.

The nurse is reading the ultrasound and says, this says you`re female.

PINSKY: He is actually a she. Stevie had been born with male and female sex organs, a penis and testicles but also vagina, uterus and ovaries. Now Stevie lives as a woman but she`s still married to wife, Debbie. They share a home and sleep in the same bed. They`re here to tell their incredible story.


PINSKY: All right. We`re going to change gears, get into this story. And I`ve asked judge Lynn Toler to stay with me. Steve -- Stevie Crecelius, I believe is right, and her wife, Debbie, are joining me from Denver.

Stevie, I want you to take me back to that day when you went to the hospital and got the shocking news. What did you think? What did you go through when you get home? Just take me through that day.

STEVIE CRECELIUS, WAS STEVE, NOW STEVIE: Well, I really had two feelings. One was, it totally validated how I always felt all my life. And I was also very frightened because I was afraid, Debbie was in the emergency room there with me and was so afraid she heard that because it was a secret that I was going to take to my grave.

PINSKY: So you already knew you were intersex, as we call it? Is that correct?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: I always knew that I felt female. I always related to female.

PINSKY: But you were a cop. You went into a very masculine profession. You were a cop at one point, right?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Yes. But, as a child I knew I was female and I wore my mom`s makeup. I don`t have a memory of myself looking in the mirror without makeup on. And so, it was really that struggle of trying to figure out how to present myself to the world.

In the `60s when there was no internet or no support system, I was totally alone with this. And so by my 12th year, I`m trying to figure out how to kill myself because I don`t fit in. And by 13, after failing at that -- I never even tried. I just couldn`t do it. And by 13, my only escape, my only way of coping was to create this male persona that people knew as Steve and Steve set out to be the best man he could be.

PINSKY: And Debbie, what did you think when you heard this news there in the emergency room?

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: I thought, you know, that explains everything. I - - since Stevie and I were very first together, I`d always had this gut feeling that there was something more. And at that time, he was very feminine.

PINSKY: Debbie, did you like that quality? Is that why you`re still with Stevie now that he is presenting as female?

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: What I liked was his talent, his creativity, his sensitivity, logic, caring. Those were the things that I fell in love with.

PINSKY: Stevie, how did you tell six children about this massive change?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Well, it`s the second marriage for us. So, I mean, they`re not my six children.

PINSKY: But Stevie, you were in the emergency room. Hang on. You`re in the emergency room, find out something rather startling. It made sense to you. I get it. But you have six -- you have a family that knows you as dad. You`ve got to go home now and decide, I imagine, do I go female or do I stay with this male persona? And what`s it going to do to my family? Right?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Well, I think effectively what happened was we went home and Debbie brought this up. Because again, I wasn`t going to ever tell her, and how do you tell your kids? Well, God, dad`s really a female? So, that never entered my mind. That was never a possibility. That was not something I allowed myself to think about.

PINSKY: But eventually, you did. My question is, how did you do that? That`s incredible.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: We did that together one at a time. Each -- each kid is different. And there`s -- there`s no her kids/my kids. There`s our kids. And each one is different. And each one there`s a way we had to tell them.

PINSKY: But, Debbie, we`re talking about this like --

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: One at a time.

PINSKY: I get that. We`re talking about this as though we`re talking about a NASA experiment or something. These are people`s lives, everybody in this family, deeply shifting because of this. If I were a dad and had to tell my children something profound about my life or who I was, it would be extraordinary. Wasn`t it emotional?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: It was incredibly emotional. And, in fact, I was usually curled up in a little ball and couldn`t even talk and usually Debbie had to talk or, I mean, it`s just an incredibly difficult thing to do. I mean, it --

PINSKY: Judge Toler, do you want to weigh in on this?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: That`s why we waited five years to tell them.

PINSKY: I get it.

JUDGE LYNN TOLER, HOST, DIVORCE COURT: Yes. I mean. Before you even got to the point of telling the children, how did your marriage survive? How did you two decide how you were going to relate to one another? Because I see marriages falling apart over, you know, facebook pressure.

PINSKY: Or toothpaste.

TOLER: Right, exactly. And you have survived something extraordinary. Tell me how that happened.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: Well, we almost didn`t. You know, when we first -- when I first dug this out of Stevie and I was raised in a very Tolerant family. And what I said is, OK, we`ll go shopping. But about a year and a half into this, I started to mourn the loss of my husband. I was losing him.

PINSKY: There we go.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: I had lost him.

PINSKY: Yes. That`s right.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: And I -- you know, I told her, I didn`t sign on for this, I did not sign on for this.

PINSKY: But then you did.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: And -- but then, I thought about it and I thought, OK, who in the world signs on for anything? What does till death do us part mean? It`s -- and even that was a struggle. I, you know, who signs on for cancer? Who signs on for their partner to become a paraplegic, a quadriplegic?

PINSKY: I get that. I get all that. But I have a feeling that there was that part that Stevie was pushing down, that female part, and by the way, we haven`t even defined yet what intersex is. Let me do that for people.

In all probability, Stevie, correct me if I`m wrong. Probably Stevie was a basically two what we call -- like embryos, fetuses, before they were fetuses. They come together. One has the female hormones, female chromosomes, the other is the male, and they intertwine like a conjoined twin that doesn`t ever separate. They just gets completely intermingle. Would that be right, Stevie?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: I`m not a doctor. But, intersex conditions impact as many as one and 100 people. And one in 2,000 babies are born with what`s medically termed (INAUDIBLE).

PINSKY: I understand that. I just want to get to --

STEVIE CRECELIUS: You can`t look at their --

PINSKY: I just want to get to -- I want people to understand what you`re deal with. Different cells in your body have different chromosomes. Some are male, some are female. Even in your brain there are male and female cells.

So, this feminine part of you, you were pushing down, compensating with a male persona. I have a feeling that Debbie really, really liked that feminine part of you. I watch you guys on the screen here we have set in studio, and you guys have a deep connection and a real cute tenderness we`ve been watching. So there`s something there, Debbie that you probably already liked and like a lot now. Am I wrong?

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: Well, you know, I do. She is still the same person I married.

PINSKY: Right. That`s right.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: Just different.


DEBBIE CRECELIUS: So as far as -- as far as liking that feminine side, I --

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Debbie`s heterosexual.

PINSKY: I know. I will get into that. I want to get into that. That`s the interesting part of us all. And Judge Toler wants to talk about maybe what can be learned for other marriages.

TOLER: Absolutely. Whoever signs on for, I love that phrase.


TOLER: Because these days, people don`t sign on for much it appears.

PINSKY: And I want to talk, get through some of this tough material. We`re also going to hear from one of their sons how he took this news. And we`re going to hear from you as well. 3738-55-3737295. There is their son.

And we will be right back.


PINSKY: All right. We`re talking to Stevie who six years ago found out he has both male and female sex organs. She`s married to his wife, Debbie - her wife, Debbie. And we are getting to this more difficult material here. Judge Toler remains with me.

And here`s the deal, Debbie. We have sort of established that there`s maybe something about her, that feminine piece you`re attracted to. She is a very appealing person. I mean, we can see that across the screen here. And so, I understand that these tender feelings that fly between you. In fact, several people on my staff said they`re like sisters, there`s tenderness there. And it`s actually very appealing to see the relationship between you.

Now, let me get to some tough questions. OK? Ready? Debbie?


PINSKY: I saw you fanning yourself during the commercial break.


PINSKY: I don`t want to cause you distress. But, here you go. Is there a chance, Debbie, you`re actually gay?


PINSKY: OK. Now, there`s a corollary to that, too, because Stevie, you`ve not had genital reassignment surgery. You`ve just been taking hormones. So you still have a penis?


PINSKY: Do you guys use it?


STEVIE CRECELIUS: Not in a conventional --

PINSKY: Do you have a sexual relationship?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: We have an intimacy.

PINSKY: I see that. And I see that, it`s deep. I see that. And judge Toler, you see that, too.

TOLER: My question to you is, to Debbie is, do you ever miss the maleness of him?

PINSKY: She said she mourned that.

TOLER: Because one of the things I like about my husband is that he`s a guy and he has a different sensibility.


TOLER: Did Stevie`s sensibilities change and do you miss that?

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: Well, yes and no. I -- I miss my husband. Stevie`s sensibility, Stevie is more of a girly girl than I am, ever have been or ever will be.

PINSKY: That`s interesting. That`s interesting.


PINSKY: And Stevie, do you ever miss Steve?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Well, Steve is a part of me, but do I miss --

PINSKY: So, Steve is still there? Steve is still there.

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Yes. Steve is still there. Steve protected me and still does.

PINSKY: Have you ever thought about having the full gender reassignment?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: I have. Yes, of course.

PINSKY: And where are you at with that?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Well, at my age it`s like do I want to take that time and recovery time of almost three months and re-plumb myself? I`d rather be doing things like this helping people be aware of what this is about.

TOLER: It`s not really about that, is it? It`s about how you feel.

STEVIE CRECELIUS: No, it really isn`t. I`m a person. I`m sure I`m a gender, and I express that. But I`m a person. A human being just like any other human being.

PINSKY: And it raises some really interesting stuff that I want to challenge maybe judge Toler about. I hope I can get to it. But you hear people who have issues with the same-sex marriage s and some stuff and they will really say things like, it`s Adam and eve, not Adam and Steve. But they never factored in Stevie.

TOLER: Right.

PINSKY: You know what I`m saying? And does the law look at those things? How does the law define it? And then, Stevie is married and he does externally the same sex. And what does the law do with that? How crazy do we get with these things?


PINSKY: I`m going to take a break and be right back. We have first, though, "our country votes."

Donald Trump says he`ll give $5 million to the charity of President Obama`s choice if he releases his college and passport records. Trump says it is an offer the president can`t refuse. What do you think?

Sharonda says, if I were President Obama I would take him up on his offer and take his money.

Sal says give the money to charity, anyway. No strings. Be a mensch.


PINSKY: A reminder that this is graphic material, not for the faint of heart. Get the kids out of the living room if you possibly can. Debbie and Stevie, married couple. They`ve been very kinder a forthcoming with us here. You guys have been a delight.

I really want, if you`re in Los Angeles, you want you in the studio. I want you back. We have a million questions, do you share closets, what happened during the five years whether you chose to be a man or female? How you make these choices? We`re running out of time.

I want to remind people that basically what Stevie had, was essentially he was a conjoined twin that doesn`t separate. That`s a way people can understand it. Became completely intermingled. He has penis and testicles. He also discovered that he has a uterus and ovary. That was an ultrasound and during a kidney stone procedure. And a vagina that actually opens into the rectum, which is it doesn`t fully form. That`s why he didn`t know that these female organs were there.

Before the break -- is that correct, Debbie? You`re whispering to each other. Is that correct? I`ve said something rather humorous I guess.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: Well, no. You didn`t. You`re right.

STEVIE CRECELIUS: It was the vagina, rectum thing.

PINSKY: Just as a physician I have to get this stuff straight. That`s all.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: You know, it just comes out. So --

PINSKY: There you go. So here we are. And before the break, I laid down the gauntlet to judge Toler about the male, female definitions. And boy, do we - the phasing is we have with marriage. And, what is your take?

TOLER: And I think, the difficulty that I think a lot of the gay and lesbian communities have kept -- pointed out is that there is going to be a problem defining man and woman. I mean, you can`t go by x/y or x/x because you can have those things and it`s not expressed as male or female.

PINSKY: And they are common.

TOLER: And it`s common. And it`s not that easy to define. My question, however, though, is more of a practical one. I see marriage all the time. Did the -- did your change in sensibility, Stevie, change your role within the context of the union, what you felt you were responsible for, your chores and how you related to one another or was it pretty much the same person-to-person context that you two were together?


STEVIE CRECELIUS: I don`t know how to answer that.

PINSKY: I think what she`s asking, who takes out the garbage? I think that`s what she means. Who takes out the garbage?


PINSKY: Both do. Has it always been that way or did it change?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: It`s about friendship and equality and respect.

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: You know, these are kind of mundane things. As far as the garbage goes, you know, she`ll gather it up, I`ll take it out.


DEBBIE CRECELIUS: It`s, you know, things like that. She tries to come into my kitchen and I shoo her out.

PINSKY: That sounds -- now we`re back into the original roles. But Debbie, let me ask this. I only have a few seconds before I have to take a break. And we had one of your sons who was going to ring in. I`m sorry to him that I couldn`t get to him.


PINSKY: But, what I see here is a profound tenderness and love for your partner. Am I reading that right?

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: You are. Stevie has always been my best friend. You know, we -- there`s not I don`t think anything that we cannot share.

STEVIE CRECELIUS: We built a family together.


TOLER: Do you have any one piece of advice you`d give married couples? Because you seem to have accomplished what 50 percent of America can`t get done.

PINSKY: Quick, then I have to go straight out. What do you guys say?

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Oh my God. Stop asking if it`s a boy or girl when babies are born because then doctors come in and cut their genitals to turn them into a male or female.

PINSKY: That doesn`t help with the marriage. That`s a whole other issue I want to bring you back and talk about. I`m happy to have -- that`s another show. But, we want to mine what you guys have been able to -- Debbie quick. What do you got?

DEBBIE CRECELIUS: You know, it`s -- you have to decide, and it`s different for everybody. Not everybody is going to stay together. But you have to decide what does till death do us part mean?

PINSKY: Debbie, it`s something profound there. I got to go to break. But, the side to commit --

STEVIE CRECELIUS: I would say stop making the sex so important.

PINSKY: Decide -- OK.

STEVIE CRECELIUS: Stop making the sex so important.

PINSKY: Interesting. Decide to commit. Debbie, that`s profound. I have to take a break.

Be right back. T


PINSKY: I want to thank Stevie and Debbie for being so open and forthcoming and sharing their very dramatic story. Thank you, guys. We`ll hope to have you back.

Also, thanks to judge Lynn Toler. Her book is "Making Marriage Work" and her TV show is "Divorce Court." look for it. It has got various listings around the country.

TOLER: All over.

PINSKY: There you go. All over.

TOLER: Check your local listings.

PINSKY: And I know we got a little harsh on judges today. But, I want to be clear, again, like yourself, judges are some of the most bright, upstanding --

TOLER: Dedicated.

PINSKY: Dedicated people I know.

TOLER: Caring, dedicated, caring people. And it`s just the few bad ones that get all the press and the good ones.

PINSKY: Got to go.

Nancy Grace starts right now.