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CONNECT THE WORLD
Senior Official Says John Allen Email Innocuous; Greece Cannot Afford Delay Of New Bailout Funds, According to One MP
Aired November 13, 2012 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MAX FOSTER, HOST: Tonight on Connect the World, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan now embroiled in a scandal rocking Washington and beyond. General John Allen's nomination for a top NATO job is on hold as we add yet another character to a widening U.S. scandal.
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN London, this is Connect the World.
FOSTER: Tonight as a new twist emerges, we look at how this firestorm links Washington, Libya and now Afghanistan.
Also ahead, raising the dead: work has begun opening the tomb of former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in search of answers.
And a Messi mob: the football star overwhelmed by a Saudi welcome.
Well, from the heart of America's intelligence agency to the heart of its battle in Afghanistan. What began as an investigation into threatening emails has spiraled into a scandal which has already taken down one powerful general and now has involved another.
Just days after a CIA director David Petraeus was forced to resign after an FBI investigation uncovered an affair with his biographer, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan John Allen is facing an inquiry of his own after allegedly sending potentially inappropriate messages to Jill Kelley, the women whose complaints about emails from Petraeus' biographer sparked the original investigation.
Earlier her brother had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID KHAWAM, JILL KELLEY'S BROTHER: If you know my sister the way I do, she is number one a mother. She has three little kids. She is number two a wife, OK. So, after that, everything else is just a side attraction, basically, it's peripheral. So she's very dedicated to her husband and to her kids.
So something like this is really pretty much a fluke, you know, so for her - anybody to paint her other than that is completely wrong. Is just completely wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, this is very complex. But the first we knew about this scandal was on Friday when this man, former CIA director David Petraeus resigned.
But the story begins back in May. And that's when anonymous emails, described as jealous by one U.S. official were sent from his biographer Paula Broadwell to Paula - to another woman Jill Kelley. The FBI began an investigation.
Well, Kelley and her husband say they've been friends with the Petraeus family for more than five years.
During the course of the investigation it's discovered that Petraeus and Broadwell had an affair, which according to a friend of Petraeus, ended last summer.
Bringing in John Allen, it's now been revealed that John Allen, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan is now also under investigation, in this case or potentially inappropriate emails he's alleged to have sent to Jill Kelley.
Barbara Starr reports on the latest for us now from Washington.
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Marine Corps General John Allen denies an extramarital affair with Jill Kelley, the Florida socialite whose concern over threatening e-mails led to an investigation that revealed an affair between CIA Director David Petraeus and his biographer, Paula Broadwell.
A Pentagon official told reporters Allen, who commands the war in Afghanistan, is adamant he did nothing wrong. A senior official close to Allen tells CNN of Kelley: "There is no affair. She's a bored socialite." A U.S. official says there appears to be nothing criminal involved. But Allen is now under investigation for what is being called inappropriately flirtatious e-mails to Kelley.
GEORGE LITTLE, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: The secretary directed that the matter be referred to inspector general of the Department of Defense.
STARR: The FBI found up to 35,000 pages of documents, some of them e- mails between Allen and Kelley, some dating back two years during their investigation. According to a senior official close to Allen, one message the Afghan commander sent warned Kelley she had been threatened. The official says Allen had received an anonymous message now believed to be from Broadwell.
The Pentagon was called in because Allen is subject to military law. But why did this only come out now in public view?
JONATHAN TURLEY, CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: We have a large amount of alleged material that went between these individuals, as much as 30,000 pages. It's not clear whether this was viewed as a relatively minor question or whether it was not apparent until the very end that the general was involved.
STARR: Allen was to appear Thursday for Senate hearing to become the military head of NATO. Now that is on hold.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, SENIOR FELLOW IN FOREIGN POLICY STUDIES, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: We need to be careful not to have this cloud of scandal start to color the image of General Allen because the minute that happens, it may be almost too late to sustain his leadership.
FOSTER: Well, we'll be talking live to Barbara Starr in just a moment. First, Allen has denied any wrongdoing, but until the investigation is complete his nomination to become NATO supreme allied commander has been put on hold.
Nick Paton-Walsh has spoken to a senior official close to the general and earlier told me what he had learned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK PATON-WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Max, I've spoken to a senior official close to General John Allen. The first thing this person said was there was no affair between General John Allen and Jill Kelley as eluded to by the suggestion he sent inappropriate emails to her. Nothing of a sexual nature, not even a romantic nature between them.
Now this sources accepts, yes, that Jill Kelley did email General John Allen, but mostly because she emailed many people who were senior in CENTCOM where General John Allen worked in Florida, because she was an honorary ambassador working there engaged in social functions assisting veterans, that sort of thing.
Describing their communication and completely innocuous most of the time, suggesting that maybe once in awhile General John Allen might say "thanks, sweetheart" to her for something, but that's purely because this person said he's from Virginia and that's a colloquialism they often use there.
But absolutely clear that the exchanges between them were entirely innocuous, Max, and there's nothing of a sexual nature here according to this senior official.
FOSTER: Well, if that's the case, why was the FBI brought in?
PATON-WALSH: That is the interesting question here.
Now this senior official says that General John Allen received an email from the anonymous account now thought to have been run by Paula Broadwell, warning him about Jill Kelley. Now of course he knew Jill Kelley so he emailed her and said, look, I've received this email talking badly about you, even threatening you.
Now we don't know what happened there. And I'm speculating that could be when the FBI became involved. But that appears to be according to this senior official the moment in which the email traffic between Jill Kelley and General John Allen became part of their investigation.
So mostly innocuous it's said. And I should point out this source also says Jill Kelley and General John Allen have never have even been alone in a room together according to him, but the concern here of course really is this anonymous email sent to General John Allen warning him about Jill Kelley which appears to have now begun the FBI's involvement according to my source here, Max.
FOSTER: So we're getting more information on this. This is obviously a man that you've come to know, you've met him before. What sort of person is he?
PATON-WALSH: Very respected by those around him. I think it's fair to say the job of being ISAF commander in Afghanistan is so much of a salesman in many ways. You have to convince people the war is going well despite much evidence around you that's not the case and declining public opinion certainly in favor of the war inside America.
He was a man who was very acute, early aware of the problems face that campaign, wouldn't shy around them when talking in private, certainly, I think, but also a man who inspired great loyalty amongst those in his inner circle. I recall speaking to one aid who said to me after many tours in Iraq, he didn't really want that much more time in Afghanistan, but will serve if General John Allen asked.
And he cited one anecdote that kind of explained why he liked the guy so much. General Allen and he were at the dining facility in Iraq. A round landed near that building causing it to shake and a younger shoulder to leap under the table for cover. Now John Allen stayed in his seat, according to this aid, and calmly looked down and said, son, you're not going to win the war from down there.
Now that small anecdote really explaining why so many people around him felt inspired by him, according to one aid, and of course why so many of them would have been shocked to hear what they heard this morning - Max.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, tonight the White House has said that U.S. President Barack Obama has faith in John Allen to continue commanding U.S. forces whilst the investigation is carried out. Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon. Barbara, so complex, but really what are you hearing about how serious this scandal actually is?
STARR: Well, look, regarding General Petraeus, it's extremely serious; regarding General Allen, we don't know yet.
At this point Allen says he didn't have an affair with this woman, but there are these emails out there, thousands of pages of them. Some of them may be blast emails to large groups of people. Her name may have simply appeared on them. But the Pentagon says some of them were inappropriately flirtatious, that's in the Pentagon's words. And it was turned over to the Pentagon inspector-general by - once the FBI came to the Pentagon for a full investigation.
So you have to take that kind of thing seriously.
The question will be, you know, did he do anything against the uniform code of military justice? And can they put him back into the mix if the decision as he did not - can they put him back in the mix to be the chief of NATO in time for him to secure that nomination, secure the confirmation and really serve effectively?
FOSTER: And when it goes belong scandalous, things like this when Paula Broadwell making allegations about what she calls the real reason behind the storming of the Benghazi consulate, this is when it becomes particularly worrying and it starts affecting other people, isn't it?
So what do we know about that? What's the truth there?
STARR: Well, Paula Broadwell has been in public saying that she has information that the attack on Benghazi was in part to try and free, if you will, Libyan detainees that the U.S. that the CIA was holding there. The CIA has adamantly said they were not holding anyone there and clearly implied they don't believe that the Libyans were holding anyone there. So, you know, we have to parse the words here.
Time will tell if that's actually the truth. They have come out very adamantly and said that.
David Petraeus has told a number of his personal friends, we have talked to to them, that he has divulged no classified information to Paula Broadwell. So where she got that from at the moment still remains to be seen.
FOSTER: Is it more than a sex scandal at this point?
STARR: Oh, absolutely, Max. I think that within the ranks of the U.S. military what you have now is a crisis in judgment. The issues here don't really involve sex anymore, it's what was the judgment of Petraeus, what was the judgment of General Allen to be in contact with these people so much?
You also have several other generals, very high ranking in the army and in the Navy who have recently been investigated on a four star level for allegations of financial misconduct in their travel and office expenses. You know, when you see this kind of repeated activity the key question is what do the troops think about this? They're out there risking their lives every day and they see these four stars carrying on in this fashion, what does it do to troop morale?
FOSTER: Barbara at the Pentagon thank you very much indeed for that.
Well, our top story tonight, U.S. President Barack Obama says he has faith in General John Allen to continue commanding troops in Afghanistan. Allen's under investigation for allegedly sending potentially inappropriate emails to a woman caught up in the scandal which forced CIA director David Petraeus to resign on Friday.
You're watching Connect the World and live from London. Still to come, Greece's bailout money remains frozen in EU coffers. Up next, my interview with a Greek MP who says the country can't wait.
Also, was Yasser Arafat poisoned? An excavation underway in the west bank could finally put some lingering suspicions to rest.
FOSTER: When will Greece get its bailout money? That's the question Europe's finance ministers continue to debate on the second day of talks in Brussels. The euro group have agreed to give Greece another two years to meet its financial targets, effectively extending the time it needs to pay back its debt.
But there's a standoff between Europe and the International monetary fund over the new bailout conditions. All this means financial aid to Greece remains frozen until leaders meet again next week.
There's a bitter pill for lawmakers in Greece who will have to - who have to implement a harsh new measures to meet bailout conditions, measures the Greek people say go too far. On Sunday, parliament approved the 2013 budget. And last week, it narrowly passed an austerity package worth over $17 billion.
That brought Greeks onto the streets on a two-day nationwide strike.
Earlier today my colleague Nina Dos Santos spoke to the leader of the leftist Syriza Party Alexis Tsipras who says these austerity measures aren't the answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXIS TSIPRAS, LEADER, SYRIZA PARTY (through translator): The problem is not just clear just Greece, it's a European problem. Greece is a part of the EuroZone, and the problem of the debt of Greece is a part of a bigger European problem which relates to all European south.
What we are claiming, we're demanding is comprehensive European solution, a regulation with the right (inaudible) big part of the debt of the countries who have the public debt particularly high.
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Where's the money going to come from?
TSIPRAS (through translator): If you have somebody bankrupt, the solution is not to give more loans to him which he won't be able to return, the solution is to help him to work to produce so that he has the opportunity to start to repay. And what has happened to Greece is completely destructive because it will put this load upon us on a country which is bankrupt and we deprived of the opportunity to produce so that to be able to repay. That's a problem.
And for this reason today we don't have a solution, just (inaudible) essential because the Greek debt is not viable. The program has failed in all its goals and therefore there cannot be any other solution except one new cut which (inaudible) policies of development and public investment will create a stable environment for the private investors.
DOS SANTOS: Do you have a credible plan for Greece if it were outside of the EuroZone?
TSIPRAS (through translator): I believe Greece has (inaudible) Greece and should stay in the EuroZone, but you also need Greece. Imagine the geopolitical consequences, not just economic consequences, from the exit of Greece from the EuroZone which would lead to a domino effect added to a resolution effect to the beginning of the end of the EuroZone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Well, earlier I spoke with Greek MP and former foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis. She agrees with Tsipras that Greece is facing a monumental crisis, but says austerity should be supported. This is what she had to say.
DORA BAKOYANNIS, GREEK PARLIAMENT MEMBER: The recession is much bigger than anybody in the troika ever foresaw. We have a humanitarian crisis in Greece. Yes, I totally agree with that. The problem with Mr. Tsipras is that he believes that there is a magical way to bring the situation back to what it was three years ago without making any changes. Well, this is not possible. We need .
FOSTER: He was talking about canceling debt.
BAKOYANNIS: ...Greek economy.
Canceling debt, we are talking about restructuring part of the debt. It was already done, as you know. There is a talk going on that maybe this is needed. It's the IMF's position.
We will see if it is needed.
But anyway, whatever is needed must be done and the decision making must be made now. Greece cannot wait anymore. What I said yesterday in another interview was that we cannot wait for them - for the bailout money, because it was due yesterday. It was due in June.
FOSTER: But what's the alternative. You have to wait if you're putting everything in the hands of Brussels.
BAKOYANNIS: well, I know that we have to wait, that's why we are asking our European partners not to delay it. It is very important that our European partners understand that we cannot afford any other delay. We need the money. And we need the whole of the tranche. And we need it now.
FOSTER: Should Greece stay in the EuroZone?
BAKOYANNIS: Yes, of course, that's why we fought very hard. There was two electoral campaigns fought over that. Because practically for us it is a very, very important target to stay inside the EuroZone. We understand that this is the biggest crisis the euro has faced since it exists. And it shows, also, that the euro was not well prepared for crisis. Well, from this crisis we must learn. We need new tools in Europe, we need another way of thinking. We need more solidarity. We need a quicker decision making.
And I think that this is the lesson for all of European partners which we will have to take from this crisis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: And tomorrow we'll see more unrest as trade unions across Europe plan coordinated megastrikes, demonstrations against the euro's austerity policies are expected to on Wednesday in Spain, Portugal, Greece and Germany.
You're watching Connect the World. Coming up on the show, Kenya's president is sending in the army after deadliest ambush ever against that country's police.
FOSTER: Eight years after his death we could finally learn whether Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat was poisoned. Workers began exhuming his body in the West Bank today, that's in connection with a murder inquiry opened earlier this year after high traces of a toxic substance were found on Arafat's belongings.
Sara Sidner has the latest for us from Ramallah.
SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Security forces are keeping us as far away as possible from the Palestinian presidential compound where the body of deceased PLO leader Yasser Arafat has been laid to rest.
Now you can see below and behind me a huge blue tarpaulin that is surrounding his mausoleum. What we're hearing from a source is the glass that usually surrounds that mausoleum has now been taken down and workers are working on removing the marble tombstone. This is all happening because the family of Yasser Arafat believes he was murdered after polonium 210, a highly radioactive element, was found on some of his belongings, according to a Swiss lab.
Now his body is supposed to be exhumed this month. And there is a lot of work to be done, our source says, that the exhumation could take at least two weeks and probably more because some of the work will be done by hand.
When the work of removing the dirt in his grave is done, we're expecting to see scientists from France, Switzerland, and Russia here to watch that process and to take tests. This is all happening just as everyone commemorates the anniversary, the eight year anniversary of Arafat's death. His family very upset. And there has always been suspicion that Arafat was murdered when he died in a French hospital in 2004.
Sara Sidner, CNN, Ramallah.
FOSTER: Here's a look at some other stories making headlines this hour.
Kenya's president is deploying the army to remote northern area where at least 38 police officers were massacred. The police were hunting cattle thieves over the weekend when they were ambushed by heavily armed gunmen. The government had warned a local tribe to give back cattle that it had recently seized from another tribe or police would respond with force.
A software tycoon is now on the run wanted in connection with murder. Police in Belize are searching for John McAfee, founder of an anti-virus company. They want to question him about the fatal shooting of another American who was also living in Belize. In a bizarre development, McAfee told Wired magazine that he was hiding on his property when police came to investigate he claimed they were out to kill him.
And the southern hemisphere is experiences a solar eclipse. It is the first total solar eclipse to be seen from Australia for 10 years and the best view is from the east coast. In Queensland, tens of thousands of people have turned out to watch the phenomenon. In all, it should take about an hour for the moon to pass across the sun.
You are watching Connect the World. Coming up, the latest world headlines. And also ahead, I will debate the release of radical cleric Abu Qatada and whether human rights should ever be sacrificed for national security.
Also, we profile the Oprah Winfrey of Argentina and chart her rise to fame from single mother to struggling to make ends meet.
And it is a messy seen in Riyadh as the Barcelona star arrives in Saudi Arabia. We'll bring you that and all the sport later in the program.
FOSTER: A very warm welcome to our viewers across Europe and around the world. I'm Max Foster and these are the latest world headlines from CNN.
US General John Allen, commander of forces in Afghanistan, is being investigated as part of a widening sex scandal that forced David Petraeus to resign as head of the CIA. The Pentagon is looking into e-mails containing thousands of pages exchanged between Allen and Jill Kelley. She's the woman whose complaint to the FBI led to the exposure of Petraeus's affair.
A Palestinian team hidden by a blue barrier is dismantling Yasser Arafat's tomb, but it could take weeks before they reach the remains of the late Palestinian leader and an autopsy is conducted. France has opened a murder probe into Arafat's 2004 death after a radioactive substance was discovered on his belongings.
Radical cleric Abu Qatada has been released on bail in the UK. The British government says it will appeal a ruling that's blocked his deportation to Jordan. Qatada has been convicted in absentia of terror- related crimes in Jordan and will face a retrial if he returns.
France has reportedly become the first Western country to recognize Syria's newly-unified opposition. News agencies report that President Francois Hollande today declared the Syrian National Coalition the sole representative of the Syrian people.
Well, it's seen as a massive blow to the British government. Abu Qatada released on bail after a court ruling blocked his deportation to Jordan where he faces trial on terror charges. The ongoing legal fight to deport the cleric has cost Britain over $1.5 million, but officials aren't giving up, as Nic Robertson reports.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This man, al Qaeda's murderous leader in Iraq in 2006, and this man, the ring leader of al Qaeda's attack on America on 9/11, both had tapes of Abu Qatada's sermons.
And this man, hand-picked by Osama bin Laden to be a suicide assassin, made a trip to Britain just to see Qatada, tracked at the time by Belgian intelligence.
ALAIN WINANTS, BELIGIAN STATE SECURITY DIRECTOR: We were a network of individuals traveling to Britain to be from there on directed to the war zones in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
ROBERTSON: To British officials, Qatada is a militant preacher who has inspired terrorism and helped fund al Qaeda and its affiliates.
THERESA MAY, BRITISH HOME SECRETARY: Qatada is a dangerous man, a suspected terrorist, who is accused of serious crimes in his home country of Jordan.
ROBERTSON: Qatada arrived in Britain from Jordan carrying a false passport in 1993. He claimed religious persecution at home, and a few years later was granted refugee status. Began preaching in London mosques, quickly gaining a radical following.
Back home, Jordanian authorities convicted him in absentia of a plot to bomb tourists celebrating the millennium and for his role in two terror attacks in 1998.
His lawyers say the convictions are unsafe, that key witness statement were extracted under torture. And that's the rub. For the past decade, Qatada has been in and out of the UK's maximum security detention facilities as the legal tussle to deport him home has intensified.
In January this year, the European Court of Human Rights ruled Qatada could remain in Britain, because in Jordan he might be convicted on evidence obtained through the torture of others. Jordan's king promised May he'd help get Qatada off her hands. The country's constitution changed, a deal was struck. Qatada would get a new trial, free of witness torture.
MAY: The Jordanian government has promised to ensure that Qatada's case would be heard by civilian, not military judges.
ROBERTSON: Enough to get the European court to waive its objections. But just as Qatada seemed set for deportation, his lawyers took his case to Britain's special Immigrations Appeals Commission, who said no to deportation, in essence ruling Jordan's courts can't be trusted.
ROBERTSON (on camera): Abu Qatada's bail terms mean he'll be stuck in his house here for 16 hours a day, allowed out only between 8:00 AM and 4:00 PM. If the British government has its way, he won't be here for much longer. Precisely how they deport him to Jordan, however, remains very unclear.
Nic Robertson, CNN, London.
FOSTER: Abu Qatada hasn't been charged with anything in the UK, but he has been accused of serious offenses and has been detained for much of the past decade. So, where does the protection of civil liberties end and priorities -- prioritizing national security begin? Well, to debate this, I'm joined by Clive Baldwin of Human Rights Watch and conservative member of parliament here in the UK Mark Pritchard. Thank you both for joining us.
Mark, first of all, just describe the sets of emotion in the UK around this story, because it's not just black and white, is it, anymore?
MARK PRITCHARD, CONSERVATIVE BRITISH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Well, this has been going on for a decade, and as it's been pointed out, costing the UK taxpayer millions of pounds. It's likely to cost up to 5 million pounds more a year as Abu Qatada is guarded here in the UK.
And I think people are rather fed up, and at best, I think they're perplexed about the judicial system in Europe and here in the UK. But also angry, and I think that's the overwhelming sense that I get from my constituents.
They're very, very angry that somebody who clearly is a national security threat, somebody that's been charged in Jordan with very serious offenses, we're unable to deport him.
FOSTER: With so much emotion around it, what does it say about the legal system here in the UK and the way he's worked through it?
CLIVE BALDWIN, SENIOR LEGAL ADVISOR, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: In some ways, it shows the legal system is working. It's very good the government is complying with the various rulings.
But it also is that human rights should not be in opposition to national security. If someone is a national security threat and has committed crimes against the country or against the people, then they should be put on trial in the United Kingdom.
The problem is, to deport someone to Jordan is where there's a real risk of torture, of evidence obtained by torture being used, would go against the entire international system that prevents torture.
FOSTER: There hasn't been any case against him in the British legal system. It's a strong legal system, and he's gone through every single stage, hasn't he? So what is the case for finding him guilty of anything or deporting him?
PRITCHARD: Well, we're not trying to try him here, we're trying to deport him, and the --
FOSTER: But the courts have decided he shouldn't be deported.
PRITCHARD: Well, the principle -- the principle of a fair trial in another jurisdiction should not be at the detriment of UK national security, and those are the words of the law lord some years ago, and I think most British people would subscribe to that view --
FOSTER: But isn't your criticism of the law court rather than the man himself?
PRITCHARD: Well, the fact is that the European Court of Human Rights has effectively advised the special Immigration Court here in the UK suggesting that evidence obtained under torture should not be admissible, and that was the grounds for which they rejected the home office, the British government. They have 21 days now, of course, to appeal.
But that overlooks the fact that in Jordan, as we've heard from that clip, the home secretary said that it will be a civilian judge and it will be a civilian court. It will also be a new trial, so any evidence submitted to the court could be ruled out of order or could be challenged in that new trial.
So, and there's of course no evidence that there would be any evidence submitted to the court of anything that's been obtained under duress or under severe enhanced interrogation
FOSTER: There you go, Clive. What's the problem?
BALDWIN: It's -- we've been monitoring Jordan for years. It's a country where torture remains prevalent, and despite promises and statements by the king, it still remains prevalent.
FOSTER: What can we do to reassure you, then, that their system would work in this case?
BALDWIN: Real -- real change. Independent inspection of prisons, real change in the laws so evidence is clearly inadmissible, and to become like a country like Tunisia, where torture has been abolished and people can be deported there.
FOSTER: What's going to happen next week? Because the king of Jordan is over, isn't he? Presumably British ministers will have a conversation with him about -- give us something that we can present to the courts to go back to them with. Is that going to be the debate, and what can they come up -- ?
PRITCHARD: Well, of course, the Jordanians have already changed their constitution, they've given various commitments, as much as they can. It will have --
FOSTER: Not enough to satisfy the British courts.
PRITCHARD: Well -- well, it's certainly enough to satisfy many other courts. The problem is that we have a European Court of Human Rights that, perhaps, looks to the human rights appeal perhaps a little bit more than national security. It doesn't mean you can have -- you have to have one without the other, but I think it's absolutely critical that national security comes first in this country.
This is somebody who is described by a judge, allegedly, to be Osama bin Laden's right-hand man in Europe. He is a national security threat, he clearly is a threat to Jordanian national security. This man needs to be brought before the courts, needs to be punished, and needs to be put in prison and out of harm's way.
FOSTER: Is your concern, though, that this could be the thin end of the wedge, as it were? Even if this man is a bad man and he's in the country for the wrong reasons that if he gets sent away, then other cases, lesser cases, could follow and this will set some sort of precedent?
BALDWIN: It's that international prohibition on torture, and there's a very good -- it's not the European convention, it's the UN convention on torture -- which says no one shall be deported to torture, no evidence obtained by torture shall ever be used. It's as straightforward as that.
And that's in Britain. It was partly drafted by the government of Margaret Thatcher, who signed Britain up to it, as many countries, including Jordan.
FOSTER: Is there anything the Jordanians can do, though, that would reassure you on this case to allow him to be deported?
BALDWIN: It's -- well, the problem with the government's approach has been rather than to push the Jordanians for real change in Jordan is to get paper promises on this particular case.
FOSTER: Well, that's OK, isn't?
BALDWIN: It's rather when --
FOSTER: Got to be somewhere.
BALDWIN: When a country's committing -- when torture's prevalent, you need to get rid of it completely from the country. And that can be done. But even now, say, when they say they're going to be civilian judges, it remains the same military court, not independent of the government.
FOSTER: OK, Mark Pritchard, Clive Baldwin, thank you both very much, indeed, for joining us.
BALDWIN: Thank you.
FOSTER: You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD live from London on CNN. Still to come on the show, she's Argentina's queen of glamor. CNN sits down with the country's most popular talk show host.
FOSTER: She's known as the Oprah Winfrey of Argentina. In this week's Leading Women series, meet the model-turned-media mogul who credits soap -- yes, soap -- with launching her career.
FELICIA TAYLOR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A glamorous setting for Argentina's glamor queen. At a photo shoot for the next issue of her magazine, "Susana," she moves from pose to pose with a fluidity that only comes from experience. This is one of Argentina's most famous ladies.
A woman who started modeling at 18 and quickly rose to fame in movies and theater before starting her own talk show about 25 years ago.
SUSANA GIMENEZ, TALK SHOW HOST: I always said to my audience, if you want something with all your heart, you get it. You get it. I swear that.
TAYLOR: And get it, she has. Starting first with a commercial for soap that made her one of the most recognized faces in many South American countries.
TAYLOR (on camera): That was what really propelled your career.
GIMENEZ: Yes, absolutely. A soap. I'm very clean.
TAYLOR (voice-over): Then won multiple awards for her television show, and now has the second-most popular women's monthly magazine in Argentina. This model, actress, singer, talk show host, magazine publisher, and overall legend is Susana Gimenez.
GIMENEZ: The sun -- loves me.
TAYLOR: Sometimes it seems as if the sun itself radiates from the effervescent Susana Gimenez. It is, perhaps, why her talk show, "Susana," is one of the highest-rated in Argentina.
TAYLOR (on camera): You don't take a bad picture, do you?
TAYLOR (voice-over): I met Gimenez at her home in Miami where she's spending part of a sabbatical year off from her talk show.
TAYLOR (on camera): They say that your Argentina's Oprah. Is that a fair comparison? Do you like that comparison?
GIMENEZ: I would love to be her. No, but it's an incredible thing. Oprah and I were born the same day. We have the same car, the same dog, and the same day of birth. I used to live on Fisher Island first, and she was there, and I was -- I didn't ask -- I didn't say hello at first.
TAYLOR: Were you shy?
GIMENEZ: Yes, I was shy.
TAYLOR: But you're not shy on television.
GIMENEZ: No, no. No, no, no. I'm not shy on television.
TAYLOR (voice-over): Hard to believe this vivacious woman could ever be shy, but she'd originally planned on having a much more subdued career as a teacher. Things changed when she got pregnant, married, and divorced at a young age. She then turned to modeling.
TAYLOR (on camera): Why did you get married so young?
GIMENEZ: Because I was expecting a baby. It's horrible to say now, but in that time, it was terrible. Now, it's, you know. And I get divorced, and I say, "Oh, my God, I don't have money, I don't know what to do." And I present my pictures in an agency, they call me to pass like that. They had a star of this commercial.
And afterwards, I made one that was a big hit in all America for a soap. I did in one shot, it was winter, I was in a bikini in a river, so I have to say "soap" like that, with the soap.
TAYLOR (voice-over): From there, Gimenez says she took any job she could to support herself and her daughter, Mercedes.
GIMENEZ: I worked too much. I never said no. Yes, I can do everything. OK, OK, I have to pay the rent. I worked for the rent and for the girl.
TAYLOR (on camera): It's interesting, though, because if you didn't get divorced, you may not have achieved --
GIMENEZ: Of course! I always say that.
TAYLOR: So it was a blessing.
GIMENEZ: Yes, blessing. Absolutely.
TAYLOR (voice-over): She went on to land roles in major films, including the iconic "La Mary." She stared in plays and musicals. And by 1987, she was approached to host a talk show.
The show, called, appropriately enough, "Susana Gimenez," has won 17 Martin Fierros, Argentina's version of an Emmy, including Susana's win of the coveted Viewers' Choice Platinum Award.
And just four years ago, she launched her magazine, "Susana."
TAYLOR (on camera): And you're always the cover girl.
GIMENEZ: Yes, always, like Oprah.
GIMENEZ: I copied from her.
TAYLOR (voice-over): In the coming weeks, we'll step into her life as a celebrity and the question she hates to ask her guests.
FOSTER: Well, next week, we'll have more with both of this month's Leading Women, truly, to learn more about their careers and family lives. And remember, you can watch all of our latest videos at cnn.com/leadingwomen.
You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD. When we come back, it was Messi mania in Saudi Arabia as Argentina arrived for a football friendly.
FOSTER: Well, an English referee has nothing to answer for, at least in the eyes of the police. Don Riddell joins me from CNN Center with the latest heard in the case of Mark Clattenburg. Does this mean he's clear to go back to work, then, Don?
DON RIDDELL, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Well, not quite, Max, but he does now have one less thing to worry about.
This was the news that came out on Tuesday, that the British police have essentially dropped their investigation into Mark Clattenburg because no victims had come forward, so they really had nothing to work with. And while they say that the initial report will remain on record, there is really, now, nothing further that they could do.
Clattenburg is not out of the woods yet, though, because the Football Association are looking into Chelsea's claim that he used abusive language, which could have been interpreted as racist, during that really stormy Premier League clash at Stanford Bridge just a couple of weeks ago. You may recall, Max, that was the game in which Chelsea had two players sent off, and they ultimately lost that game.
So, the Football Association really, now, have to decide whether or not Clattenburg has a case to answer and when he can return to work. We're expecting to hear from the FA later this week. And Clattenburg in the last couple of days has returned to training, but he has not been assigned another game this weekend, and he hasn't reffed since that game at Stanford Bridge.
FOSTER: And the world's top footballer, meanwhile, Don, had this incredible welcome, didn't he? Kind of scary, in a way, as well, when you look at the video.
RIDDELL: Yes, I think so. Guys like Lionel Messi really are no strangers to kind of media scrums and excitable crowds, and the pictures that you're about to see from Riyadh Airport in Saudi Arabia certainly are testament to the kind of situation these guys find themselves in.
But I think what's particularly scary about this is that these security officers or these soldiers are armed, and there was one moment, if you look closely here, where one of those loaded guns was thrust right into Messi's face. It pokes him right under his chin, and I can only imagine how he felt at that point --
FOSTER: When was that?
RIDDELL: -- he was only too relieved to get out of the way and out of that scrum. Messi and the Argentine national side are playing a friendly game in Saudi Arabia this week. That's how he found himself in that situation. But not a good place to be.
FOSTER: Yes, absolutely. This time in London, as well, Don, I want to ask about Djokovic and his big win. What do you make of that?
RIDDELL: Well, just incredible. He has had two incredible seasons, now. And a lot of people thought it would be very hard for him to match what he achieved last season when he won three grand slam titles and ended the year as the world number one.
He actually hasn't caught quite as close to that as he would've liked, but he got pretty close, and he actually won more matches this year, and he ended the season as world number one, and he capped it all on Monday night in London at the O2 Arena by beating Roger Federer.
And I think what was great about this was that Federer has really dominated this event, this world tour final, in particular at the O2 Arena. He was going for a third consecutive win. He started off so well, he won the first three games, and he looked like he was just going to thrash Djokovic.
But this is a guy that never, ever knows when he's beaten. He clawed his way back into this one, and he won it -- just absolutely thrillingly, Max. He took the first set in a tie-break. He won the second set 7-5. And when it got to the end, you could see how pumped up he was. He was absolutely ecstatic at the end.
He said afterwards that he was playing for his father, who's been so supportive of him, and who's usually courtside at the big events, but his father from Serbia has been battling a pretty serious respiratory illness recently. And so, Djokovic said he was thinking of him. He's dedicated this incredible win towards him, and he was off to visit him in hospital today.
But this is just an incredible player who's absolutely in his prime. He's got a well-deserved break coming up now, but he's going to be back out again in 2013 looking to have another incredible season.
FOSTER: Join Don on "World Sport" in around 30 minutes from now right here on CNN.
And in tonight's Parting Shots, we celebrate Diwali, one of the most important festivals for Hindus, of course. It's a five-day celebration also known as the Festival of Lights. Some of our iReporters have been sending in their pictures of celebrations from across India.
And iReporter Manish Kanojia took this photo outside a bazaar in Delhi. The bazaar is in Old Delhi and is one of the busiest wholesale markets in the city.
Kshitij Sharma photographed this artwork called Rangoli. He says Rangoli is a decorative technique that uses colored sand to create festive designs, and certainly it does.
Manish Kanojia also walked through a great India place in the city of Noida and captured these stunning images.
Digamber Singh Rayamajhi says it is a special time in Nepal, too. He took this great picture. It is the chalk people use to create religious symbols as part of their decorations, and it's amazing to see that they're actually a decoration in themselves.
And finally, Diwali in Malaysia. Hyacinthe Kaur sent us this picture of some henna artwork she had done herself. She says henna takes her back to her cultural roots, and it's true artwork, isn't it?
I'm Max Foster, that is CONNECT THE WORLD. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back in a moment with news headlines.