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Casey Anthony: Evidence Missed; $5 Million Sex Suit
Aired November 26, 2012 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Casey Anthony is making headlines again. And we will hear the very latest exclusively from her attorney, Jose Baez.
"Sesame Street" scandal continues. Kevin Clash, the voice of Elmo, has been hit with a $5 million lawsuit by a young man who claims he`d had sexual relations with Clash starting when he was just 15 years old. Now, he wants a multimillion dollar apology and new details of their alleged affair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is Monday Madness. And truly it is so today.
First off, a new report shows someone searched the term "foolproof suffocation" on a computer mainly used by Casey Anthony.
Joining us now on the phone from Miami is author of the book "Presumed Guilty" and Casey Anthony`s former attorney, Jose Baez.
Jose, thank you so much for joining me here today.
Now, in your book, you mention this evidence. And so the question I guess everyone wants to know is how does something like this get missed in such a high-profile case? Or was it missed?
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER ATTORNEY (via telephone): Well, I can tell you this, Drew. First of all, thank you for having me.
I remember sitting right next to you while we were discussing my book before it came out, and I told you that there were things in this book that were going to shock people. It only took a few months for people to realize, but it -- you know, first of all, I don`t believe this evidence was missed at all. I think it was clearly there.
I think there are reports that in my book I lay out the reports that reference the work that was done on the computer. And why I believe it was buried as opposed to a mere oversight or overlooked as they are now claiming.
PINSKY: Jose, review that with us now. Why do you think they chose to overlook it?
BAEZ: Well, the problem with this evidence is that it completely destroys the prosecution`s timeline. If you recall, the only testimony of what occurred on June 16th, 2008, was the testimony of George Anthony that says Casey and Caylee left the house at 12:50.
He described exactly what they were wearing. That Caylee had a backpack and then he walked them out. He helped her get in the car and gave her a kiss and waved goodbye.
This computer activity shows someone on the computer practically all day. So if you take that and you say, well, it was Casey who did these -- who was on the computer. Then she didn`t leave at 12:50.
PINSKY: Who do you think was on the computer?
BAEZ: I`m sorry?
PINSKY: Who do you think this was that was on the computer that day? Was it mom? Dad? Casey? Who was it?
BAEZ: You know, you can never -- you can never put someone behind a computer. That`s the biggest problem with this evidence. You know, in my book, I outline a couple of different scenarios. Of course you could say Casey did it.
But you can`t have your cake and eat it too. If she was on the computer, then she didn`t leave the house at 12:50 and that means someone is lying about the fact that she left the house.
But, you know, if you argue that they left the house, then you have to say was George doing the searches? So, I mean, you know, it cuts both ways. But I think it`s much more damaging to the prosecution than it is to the defense because Casey`s cell phone records also don`t show her leaving the house until 4:16 that afternoon.
PINSKY: That`s interesting.
Jane -- Jane, you have a question for us or comment, Jane in Florida?
JANE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Yes. Thank you, Dr. Drew, for taking my call. I have both a comment and question for Jose Baez. I feel clearly and beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey Anthony is guilty of murdering Caylee with or without this new evidence of Google searches. I don`t know if the timeline is correct or not. But I believe this is only additional evidence of her guilt and the jury did not connect the dots.
But my question is -- in addition to these Google searches, how can you propose theories when there`s no evidence to back up or support that Caylee drowned, that her father helped cover up, and that she was sexually abused. How can you propose theories such as this and how could we believe this or how could even a jury believe this when she`s a pathological liar? And I believe also suffers from a sociopathic personality disorder.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s let Jose respond. There was a lot packed into that.
PINSKY: So, try to focus there.
BAEZ: I`ll try my best. And it`s Terry, right?
JANE: No, it`s Jane.
PINSKY: It`s Jane.
BAEZ: I`m sorry, Jane.
Jane, here`s the thing. What a lot of people -- first of all, I don`t blame you for feeling the way you do. A lot of people who watched this trial on television and were -- you know, I don`t know if you sat and watched every minute of the trial, but a lot of people who watched it on TV and caught the headlines and caught the sound bytes, pretty much feel that way and were very shocked by the verdict.
Those people that watched the trial a bit more and watched the complete trial, the emotions are a little bit mixed. Some people think we`re not surprised that some people were.
As it relates to your issue about theories, the -- I kind of -- I have to disagree with you. We put forward evidence that talked about the drowning. For example, the pool ladder being left up the day before and then the next day, Cindy Anthony going to work and telling her coworkers about it.
PINSKY: Jose, I think she`s talking about -- I think she`s talking about theories that were a little more far reaching, like George`s sexual abuse of Casey, that kind of thing.
BAEZ: Sure. There are several ways evidence could be put forth. And one is by cross examination and one is by direct testimony. Of course, Casey could have take have a stand and could have testify to this. And, of course, also George when he took the stand and we questioned him about the abuse, he could have denied it and he could have -- or he could have admitted to it.
Now, he did deny it. However, that doesn`t mean that the jury has to believe a witness. That`s the same if Casey took the stand and said, I didn`t do this, and they looked her and said, you know what, you`re lying. I do think you did.
So that`s considered evidence in a case. And that evidence came forth.
Now, did we prove --
PINSKY: Let me -- Jose --
BAEZ: Did we prove these theories beyond a reasonable doubt? No. I agree with that. That`s not the defense`s burden. That`s the prosecution`s burden.
And I think what happened --
PINSKY: Let`s take another quick call, Jose. I got to take another call from Terry in Florida. Terry, go ahead. Terry?
TERRY, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Dr. Drew. Hi, Mr. Baez. How are you folks today?
TERRY: I have a question, Mr. Baez, if you don`t mind. Casey`s acquitted of murder, and, you know, I blame someone else for Caylee`s murder I believe. And my question is who are you going to blame now or point to now with the newfound evidence? You know, the Google search for the foolproof suffocation. And the investigator said the person at home at the time was Casey.
PINSKY: Terry, was there a question? I didn`t hear a question --
BAEZ: I`m sorry. I didn`t understand.
PINSKY: Terry, what`s the question?
TERRY: Mr. Baez, you acquitted Casey of murder by pointing the finger at other people. My question is who`s going to be blamed this time for the newly found evidence of the foolproof suffocation? The investigators said nobody was home except for Casey at the time of that Google search.
BAEZ: That`s actually incorrect, Terry. The searches were done at 1:50 p.m. That would mean that both Casey and -- by the testimony both Casey and George were home at that time. So if you believe that it was Casey on the computer, she had to be home and the testimony that she left at 12:50 is completely contradicted.
If you believe she left, then she`s not the one working on the computer. So it --
PINSKY: You can`t have it both ways.
BAEZ: You can`t have your cake and eat it too.
PINSKY: Yes, you can`t have it both ways.
And, Jose, let me ask one more last thing before I let you go. Do you think it`s possible that Casey was searching ways to hurt herself, however Caylee died, after coming to understand the child was dead that she could have been one of the people searching for ways to hurt herself? Does that fit with your understanding of Casey?
BAEZ: That -- well, that could be an interpretation. Now --
PINSKY: I`m asking you. You`re the one that sat in the room with her all the time. Is she someone that however the child died would have gone - - I need a way out, I`m going to kill myself?
BAEZ: OK. Casey -- there`s no evidence that Casey ever contemplated or attempted suicide, which the searches show. However, there was an attempt -- that George attempted suicide in January of 2009. So, you know, the worst, most difficult thing that you can do is put somebody behind a computer.
So you have the situation where I think it`s my opinion if you look at these facts and the timeline of the case, that these searches are much more damaging to the prosecution`s case than they ever were for the defense, which is why I believe they were never brought up.
PINSKY: Got it. Jose, thank you so much for joining us and explaining some of these facts to us. Obviously this is something that can`t be retried. People will be speculating. People, a lot of high emotion around this case. But I appreciate you for coming here tonight and sort of addressing these issues that are hitting the headlines today.
Thanks, Jose. And I`m sure we`ll be back more with this in the upcoming days.
We`re switching gears. A 24-year-old is here in studio to talk about his alleged affair with the man known as the voice of "Sesame Street`s" Elmo, Kevin Clash. And a multimillion dollar suit he is leveling at Mr. Clash.
Stay with us.
PINSKY: Now on to a story that continues to capture people`s attention and shock. The longtime voice of "Sesame Street" character Elmo, Kevin Clash, has resigned amid accusations of inappropriate sexual relationships with young men. Twenty-four-year-old Cecil Singleton says he first met Clash when he was just 15 years old on a phone sex chat line. And they had an on and off sexual relationship for six years.
Kevin has now filed a $5 million lawsuit, I beg your pardon. He`s here with his attorney Jeff Herman, who represents many victims of sexual abuse. And we`ll be joining a little bit later by Dr. Gail Saltz.
Cecil, take me back when you first met Kevin. You were on a chat line. Were you looking for a relationship?
CECIL SINGLETON, 24, CLAIMS HE HAD SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH KEVIN CLASH AS TEEN: I was 15 years old. It was a number that I frequented. It was pretty much a way to meet men.
And he hit me up. You know? He was the perfect gentleman. He was very nice. I don`t remember exactly what he said, but it was apparently the right thing. He made me feel very comfortable just talking to him.
PINSKY: Did you have a sense you were talking with an adult?
SINGLETON: I knew he was an adult. When I first met him, he told me he was 36 years old. And I told him that I was 18.
PINSKY: So let me slow down a bit. So, you got off the chat line and then you met in person.
SINGLETON: At some point, yes. After conversing for about an hour, he invited me to come down and meet him near his apartment.
PINSKY: If I could have you speak up a little bit, so, the mic`s not picking you up. Go ahead.
SINGLETON: OK. After conversing for about an hour, he invited me to come and meet him for dinner at a restaurant about a block away from his apartment.
PINSKY: So, the first meeting was in a public place.
PINSKY: Like a date?
SINGLETON: Yes. Exactly. The entire time I was involved with him, he courted me like the perfect gentleman. The only thing improper about our relationship was our obvious age difference.
PINSKY: I was going to say, there`s a little bit of improper dating - - it`s not illegal to date a 15-year-old.
JEFF HERMAN, ATTORNEY FOR CECIL SINGLETON: But certainly inappropriate.
PINSKY: Inappropriate to move it into a sexual realm of any time would be illegal, correct?
SINGLETON: Exactly. Yes.
HERMAN: That`s correct.
PINSKY: When did it cross that line?
SINGLETON: Pretty much the first night. He took me out to dinner. And I remember telling myself while I was speaking to him that if I was going to have any type of honest relationship with this man, that it was imperative that he know my actual age. I told him that I wasn`t 18, that I was 15 and that I was a sophomore in high school, and that I would be turning 16 in the near future.
PINSKY: When you gave him that information, did he seem shocked? Did he respond specifically to that?
SINGLETON: He didn`t seem that surprised.
PINSKY: Did he say we got to slow down? Did he acknowledge the impropriety?
SINGLETON: Almost immediately after he told me that he wasn`t 36, that he was 43. And from there, I remember --
PINSKY: Cecil, forgive me. I don`t care if he was 19. You know what I`m saying?
PINSKY: But n acknowledgment of the impropriety there?
SINGLETON: No. In fact, I specifically remember him commenting on -- saying something along the lines of age is nothing but a number.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
SINGLETON: But I remember I contradicted him saying I didn`t necessarily agree. But I also remember even while I was saying that, that I appreciated the fact that at least as far as I was concerned that he saw me as an adult.
PINSKY: So you were sort of gratified by being courted by an adult. This is a bigger than life successful man. Did you know he was Elmo?
SINGLETON: No. I didn`t find that out until years later. My feeling during that conversation and during that first date was that he had taken me outside of myself. You know, I was in a place where I felt sophisticated and mature, like he saw me as an adult.
PINSKY: And, Jeff, you`re calling that grooming. In the suit, you allege that he was grooming.
HERMAN: Exactly. This dating or this courting is really grooming. That`s what you see when there`s predators looking for relations with kids.
PINSKY: OK. Now, to date, Kevin Clash has remained silent regarding Cecil`s allegations. Last week, a spokeswoman for Clash said he does not have a statement regarding this new claim.
Jeff, you represent a lot of victims of sexual abuse of all types.
PINSKY: Church-related issues, many sort of different circumstances where young people are groomed by victimizers.
HERMAN: Anywhere there`s kids is where I find cases.
PINSKY: What is it about this case, Cecil`s allegations, that lead you to conclude there`s something here?
HERMAN: Well, Cecil is like a lot of cases and he`s what we call a compliant victim. Ninety percent of all kids that are sexually abused are abused by somebody they know. You know, it`s really not the stranger. Statistically, that`s the problem.
So what happens is the person that the child knows grooms them, calls it dating, gives them attention, buys them gifts. So by the time they`re having sex, the child is compliant, they`re going along with it, which makes them feel guilty, makes them feel like they`re doing something wrong.
PINSKY: Right. They feel they caused this to happen.
All right. And very often kids that have been -- my audience may not be aware of this, but I deal with this thing all the time. And kids that become good victims often have been through difficult, potentially victimizations earlier in their childhood.
So tell me about your early life. Were there -- was there chaos? Was there abuse?
SINGLETON: Yes. I think -- I think the position -- I think the life I had at 15 is pretty much -- it was indirectly responsible for me being as receptive to him as I was. You know, there was a lot of things going on. I moved a lot.
I had just -- I had just finished spending two years in the foster system.
PINSKY: Oftentimes in that system, there`s sexual abuse too. Were you sexually abused as a child there?
SINGLETON: No. I was very fortunate that as traumatic as that experience was for me, that there was no type of physical or sexual abuse. I`m a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. So I like to think it made me a stronger individual.
PINSKY: Going through the foster system?
SINGLETON: Yes. However, obviously it also made me vulnerable. I wasn`t exactly in a position where I trusted many people, especially men. I think the reason why I was so receptive to Kevin was the fact that he was such a gentleman.
And while he certainly wasn`t the only older man I`d ever been with, he was the oldest. The distinction between him and the rest was the fact that he treated me with the most respect.
PINSKY: Were you in love with him? Did you think you were?
SINGLETON: No. I knew I wasn`t in love with him. I could never bring myself to be comfortable with the obvious age difference. It was the idea he was two years older than my mom. For minute one, I was immediately uncomfortable with that fact.
PINSKY: You guys, it was dating, right, for a long time?
SINGLETON: He courted me for about two weeks at that age. At some point I broke it off.
PINSKY: When you were 15, two weeks of dating with sexual contact?
SINGLETON: Yes. When I broke it off with him, I remember I was standing in my bathroom. I was supposed to meet him for dinner that night.
And I remember just coming to this realization or, you know, that I would never be comfortable with our age difference. And I felt that it was selfish of me to lead him on or to make him think otherwise.
So I tried to be as sensitive as possible when I explained to him that I couldn`t do this anymore.
PINSKY: How`d he react?
SINGLETON: It was obvious that his ego was bruised, but he -- you have to understand. The entire time I was involved with him, whether it was 15, 17, or 19, he never disrespected me. He never came at me in any time of incorrect way, I think which was perhaps why I trusted him as much as I did.
PINSKY: Jeff, it`s incorrect for a -- this is the 15-year-old taking responsibility for being in that position.
HERMAN: Right, right. It`s a perception of the victim.
HERMAN: You know, a predator wants to love a child. A predator doesn`t want to hurt the child in their mind. So they`re always presenting themselves -- which throws parents off too because the parents see this person so loving to their kids and is to charismatic that they`re not prepared. They`re looking for the danger, you know, the man with the knife.
PINSKY: Right. No, no, no. They love kids too much.
HERMAN: And the kids love the attention, especially when they`re vulnerable.
PINSKY: And especially when they`ve had serious abuse and neglect and those kinds of things. They see something that looks like love. And they go for that.
Now, we`re going to talk more with Cecil and his continuing relationship with the man known as the voice of Elmo, Kevin Clash.
PINSKY: After 28 years as the voice of Elmo, Kevin Clash has left "Sesame Street" amid allegations of inappropriate sexual behaviors. One of his accusers has come forward today to talk about their nine-year relationship. And he is now suing this man for $5 million.
Cecil, I still don`t have a sense of this relationship. It started when you were 15. It lasted many years.
Was it a highly charged sexual relationship that you had trouble leaving?
SINGLETON: Not at all.
PINSKY: But there was not a sexual relationship there?
SINGLETON: There was a sexual relationship.
PINSKY: And you kept going back. There must have been something about this relationship you liked.
SINGLETON: I would have to say the thing that stuck out to me most about him was for years, he was seemingly the most -- the nicest, the most respectful, and the man that courted me in the most proper way.
PINSKY: But you weren`t in love with him.
SINGLETON: I wasn`t in love with him. I was just appreciative about the amount of comfort around him.
PINSKY: Why the $5 million suit? Is that anger? Resentment? What`s happening now?
SINGLETON: Honestly, when the $5 million suit originally came up, I was completely blown off by it. I didn`t know until a reporter crashed the press conference and questioned me about it. My head practically spun.
PINSKY: You didn`t know you had a suit?
SINGLETON: I didn`t know it was for $5 million. I never discussed money at all with my attorney.
PINSKY: But -- forget the amount. But are you -- is this -- what are you feeling about it? Are you angry? Do you want re -- I mean --
SINGLETON: For me this is about retribution.
SINGLETON: Frankly, it`s not about money. In fact, I`d like to make him an offer. If he would acknowledge the relationship we had when I was 15 years old, as well as apologize to any prospective victim out there and agree to never work around minors, as well as pay my attorney`s fees, I`d drop the $5 million lawsuit, because, frankly, I don`t need his money. And it`s never been about money for me.
PINSKY: So, it is about the victimization.
SINGLETON: It`s about --
PINSKY: About setting things right.
SINGLETON: It`s about the fact for years I was incredibly naive. I was foolish enough to think that his relationship with me was an isolated incident. I never -- I was never aware there were other people or other men who had a similar relationship with him as the one I had at 15 years old.
When I found that out, I felt stupid. I felt naive. I felt guilty. Like my lack of judgment could have put him in more contact with more children.
SINGLETON: And as far as I`m concerned, if you can have a relationship with a 15-year-old, then you can have one with a 13-year-old. There`s a subtle difference there.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.
Now, I want to bring in Dr. Gail Saltz, associate professor for psychiatry. She`s at the New York Presbyterian Hospital. Gail, you`ve heard these allegations. You`ve heard what Cecil was telling us. What are your thoughts?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, sadly, it`s not unusual when somebody has had a history of a very difficult upbringing, if there had been traumatic things. Particularly if any of the trauma has a sexual component to it. And especially if there`s been -- for instance, if it happened with a father or there was an absent father, that there are -- that that makes that person susceptible potentially to someone who is preying on young people.
PINSKY: But, Gail -- so Gail, and you guys aren`t hearing Gail, is that right? You can`t hear her.
OK. My guests cannot hear Gail. So, I`m going to talk to Gail directly.
Gail, you and I know that this is what sets people up for victimization. How about the fact that we live in the world where people can make allegations about somebody and ruin their careers and destroy them? Do you have any concern about that?
SALTZ: Well, unfortunately, we know that does happen as well.
And sometimes, it`s not even a purposeful manipulation, but more the fantasy world of someone who, again, who has had trauma and is looking to create, you know, something that has happened to them. That explains their feelings of perhaps being victimized. That they`re involved in a drama, in a sexual relationship. And that also does happen.
And, you know, of course this is an alleged case going on. I don`t know what the case is. None of us know what the case is. But I will say it`s difficult to unravel children who have been abused and therefore are susceptible and children who have been abused and therefore have problems in their intimate relationships that might lead them to think they`ve been abused or feel they`ve been abused.
PINSKY: Very difficult stuff. We`re going to continue this conversation, talk more about this after the break. Be right back.
PINSKY: All right. We`ve been discussing the shocking story about Kevin Clash, the voice and puppeteer for Elmo.
Here is a statement from Sesame workshop, it`s called, regarding the resignation of Kevin Clash hours after Cecil`s allegation became public, quote, "Unfortunately, the controversy surrounding Kevin`s personal life has become a distraction that none of us want, and he has concluded that he can no longer be effective in his job and has resigned from "Sesame Street."
This is a sad day for Sesame Street, assigned Sesame workshop. Cecil, you were struggling as a 15-year-old. You met this bigger than life older man. What was going on in your life at that time?
CECIL SINGLETON, 24, CLAIMS HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH PUPPETEER KEVIN CLASH: What a lot of people don`t know is that I just had gotten out of a situation where my stepfather had made sexually suggestive comments to me. And it pretty much resulted in me moving again. A lot of my family and a lot of people didn`t exactly support me.
PINSKY: So, you had this trauma, and then, you were rejected by important people in your life? Yes?
SINGLETON: I was.
PINSKY: And then you found somebody who looked like he was going to support you and care for you, yes?
SINGLETON: I was extremely vulnerable when I met Kevin. I just dealt with the situation where a man that I lived with and cared about for ten years had violated my trust.
PINSKY: Your step-father?
SINGLETON: Yes. Among that, I just finished spending two years in foster care. I was extremely vulnerable. And as far as I`m concerned, Kevin with his profession was a unique position to know that I would be a receptive victim.
PINSKY: You mean, the fact that he deals with young people?
SINGLETON: The fact that he works with children, yes.
PINSKY: Is that your concern he could victimize other children?
SINGLETON: That was pretty much my main motivation for coming forward. I felt extremely guilty, like, by seeing a decent side of him or seeing what I wanted to that I had put him in contact with more children or more potential victims. And I couldn`t live with that. It was more than just a prerogative. It was a duty or a sense of responsibility that made me come forward.
PINSKY: Gail, I know we have to lose you in just a minute. Do you have anything to add to this conversation? His concerns about other people?
SALTZ: Well, you know, that is a good way to repair, quite honestly. And many people repair from something terrible happening to them by essentially reaching out to others who would be in their situation. And I also think that the comment that he was respectful, that he felt he was very kind and that he treated him like an adult, you know, unfortunately, those are things that make you seem like a father figure.
And often, when there is abuse, it`s because it is an older man who does act like a father figure and as the lawyer pointed out, that is essentially part of the grooming. And it makes somebody who has father issues, ethical issues, particularly if they`ve been abused by somebody they consider to be their father, like a step-father, that makes them very, very susceptible.
PINSKY: What is the feeling you have? Are you disgusted? Are you sad? What`s the feeling?
SINGLETON: I`m angry.
PINSKY: Angry, OK.
SINGLETON: It`s the feeling that -- it`s as if I`ve had an epiphany like the fact that I saw him as the perfect gentleman and the fact that I put him on a pedestal for as many years as I did to --
PINSKY: All right. Let me play the role of a backlasher. I understand you`ve had a backlash coming forward.
SINGLETON: I have.
PINSKY: OK. So, people would say you`re going to ruin this guy`s career. You`re just an opportunist seeing potential for money. What do you say to somebody who says this?
SINGLETON: I`d say this. I was an emancipated minor at 17 years old. I`ve been independent financially, emotionally for my entire adult life. The idea that I`ve suddenly had some type personality transplant that I would try to exploit someone for $5 million is ridiculous. It offends me.
PINSKY: What about you`re jealous? You just want to ruin this guy`s career who made you angry because he didn`t love you or wasn`t exclusive to you. What would you say to those people?
SINGLETON: I`d say for years I had nothing but the utmost respect for him. The amount of disgust that I feel now didn`t come until I realized that the relationship I had with him at 15 was a habitual thing for him. That he was known or that he was prone to seducing children because at 15, I was a child.
PINSKY: Jeff, we can`t -- these are all allegations. We can`t confirm any of this. You know, this is part of what you`re alleging --
JEFF HERMAN, ATTORNEY FOR CECIL SINGLETON, SUING KEVIN CLASH FOR $5 MILLION: Right. What we allege is that this was a (INAUDIBLE) that he was going on to these chat lines looking for underage boys --
PINSKY: Disgust. Very powerful feeling.
SINGLETON: It is. And I have to say this. Irrespective to what most people seem to think, nothing about the situation is ideal. I don`t think there`s any amount of preparation that could have been given to me to process the amount of adversity that I`ve had to deal with. You know, and what upsets me the most is that the thing that people are saying the most, there`s so much blatant homophobia.
And people -- not even questioning my honesty, but questioning, you know, this whole $5 million lawsuit or saying that because I was such a compliant victim, that it justifies what he did.
HERMAN: I think what happens --
PINSKY: I`m going to stop you right there, Jeff. I got to take a quick break. We`ll pick up with that. I also have another woman who overcame very tough circumstances like this and sort of can relate to this experience. We`re going to Skype with her. We`ve got more with Cecil, more of your calls after the break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We`re back. We`re discussing this case that has caught people`s attention. Kevin Clash, Elmo. And Jeff, you were making a comment. I want you to finish that thought.
HERMAN: Sure. Yes. Part of the backlash Cecil`s facing here is that people say he put himself in that position, because he went on this gay chat line. But, I think that loses sight of what`s really going on here, which is that an adult should never ever have sex with a minor.
PINSKY: Check. Agreed, Jeff. Yes. You said there`s some homophobia coming in here, too.
SINGLETON: Yes. People seem to be extremely uncomfortable with the fact that I am as secure in my sexuality as I am.
PINSKY: But then they get become blaming that you are (INAUDIBLE), right?
SINGLETON: Yes. And my response to that is that I`m not an innocent in a situation. I do accept responsibility for the role that I played. But I do feel that I was in an extremely vulnerable position in my life and I felt like he capitalized on that. That he was a predator.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Now, we`re going to turn now to Brianna Salavar. She joins us via Skype. Brianna, you went through a very tough childhood as well and ended up sort of participating in victimizing kinds of roles yourself. How do you feel -- first of all, tell quickly your story and how you feel when you hear Cecil tell his.
BREANNE SALDIVAR, WAS ADDICTED TO PORN AS A TEEN: Well, my story is very similar and that, you know, I, too, was victimized growing up. And so, going to chat rooms and meeting people online was definitely an outlet that I found. And how I feel about the situation, you know, I am truly and deeply saddened about this, because I know firsthand the devastation and the destruction that something like this wreaks on that person`s life.
And I think what needs to be said about this is that prominent figures are now being accused of stuff like this. We need to realize that it`s no longer just, you know, the creepy old guys who are predators. I mean, lawyers, doctors, you know, law enforcement officers, politicians. And so, something like this is -- should not be a surprise to us.
PINSKY: Let`s take a quick call from Ann in Indiana. Ann, you want to ring in here?
ANN, INDIANA: Yes. Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Ann. Go ahead.
ANN: I got a question.
ANN: Now, he -- he has some inconsistencies from when I`ve been listening just on the show. But, the thing that`s getting me is, you know, I come from abused background and this -- and everything look at. I`ve gotten over it, whatever. But, it doesn`t matter if you`re -- you know, he`s 15.
(INAUDIBLE) for person`s 19, 36, and 96. It doesn`t matter the age. He knew that he was older. OK? Now, he knew that he is doing something because he said one thing in the beginning of the show and something else just awhile ago about knowing about him being Elmo. OK.
PINSKY: Ann, I want to understand your point. You`re saying that a 15-year-old should be able to, what, stand up to an adult? I`m not quite sure what your point is.
ANN: No, no, no. No, I`m saying he`s saying -- OK. I don`t care -- OK. You`re 15. Fifteen should never even be having sex to begin with.
PINSKY: Right. They shouldn`t be going out to dinner with a 36-year- old.
ANN: OK. But what I`m saying is it doesn`t matter if the man is 19, 36, or 46, or 96. He knew that he was older. The elmo or Kevin whatever his name is older. He knew that. He put that man in a position. Two wrongs don`t make a right. So, now, he wants to come out for him.
PINSKY: Yes. But Ann, you`re holding a 15-year-old accountable for something -- an abused 15-year-old accountable for something -- and let me say this, Ann. Just this -- sum it down to this. I got to take another break, but here`s the deal. Big people take care of little people.
That`s how the world works. It`s up to us, the big people, to set the boundaries and not exploit little people. We hold big people responsible. Back more after this.
PINSKY: My apologies to Ann, but I get very worked up about this stuff. I work in a field of medicine generally where people are -- my patients have been through experiences like this. I`ve been criticized on this show for calling it the gift that keeps on giving, because these sorts of experiences color the rest of somebody`s life many times.
So, I feel very passionately about this. It is something that underscores or sort of in the history of most my addicted patients. It`s a common thing today. And I can`t say it enough. We, the big people, also people in authority, is our responsibility not to exploit and to be held to a higher standard. George in Massachusetts, did you have something to say with us?
GEORGE, MASSACHUSETTS: Yes, hi Dr. Drew. First and foremost, that woman that was just on is an absolute nut. To sit up here and blame this 15-year-old boy to say he was equal to that adult male, she`s out of her mind. That`s exactly what`s wrong with today`s society. These grown men are sitting up taking advantage of these kids. If he was a female, she`d be looking at it totally different. It`s unbelievable.
PINSKY: Well, OK. George, I`m going to stop you. I`m going to stop you. It`s an interesting point. It`s a great point. And you made the point that you feel that homophobia does come to play here in terms of the backlash that you`re experiencing.
SINGLETON: Yes. It`s as if people don`t even care. It`s not even a priority if I`m being honest or if he has a problem or sickness. It comes down to my sexual orientation or the fact that I was such a compliant victim. And, I`ve acknowledged the fact that I do play a role in this. I am partially responsible.
But the fact of the matter is, my reason for coming forward and saying something, it`s more to do with the bigger picture and the fact that there could be more prospective victims out there. If it was just me, then my opinion of him would have stayed intact. I would have still had as much respect for him as I did at 15 years old.
PINSKY: Let me hold your hand afar (ph) a little bit. You are ruining somebody`s life and career here. You are. So, you got to be sure what you`re alleging is meaningful and true, right?
SINGLETON: Well --
PINSKY: Because that`s the thing about media today. We can say whatever we want, and whoever we`re saying it about has no recourse. They really don`t.
SINGLETON: Can I say this Dr. Drew? I believe in God with every part of my being. I am incapable of trying to ruin someone`s life without a justified reason. My reason for coming forward was not to persecute Kevin. It was the fact that he has a problem. When I thought that I was alone in the situation, that I was an isolated incident, that my relationship with him wasn`t a habit, then it was fine.
It was knowing or feeling in my gut intuitively that there were other people out there that had a very similar relationship with him.
PINSKY: Jeff, I`ve got 15 seconds. Finish it.
HERMAN: It`s the adult who makes the bad choice that ruins their own life. Not the kid.
PINSKY: More when we come back.
PINSKY: All right. We`re finishing up our conversation here about the -- what should we call it? Elmo disaster. My goodness, this thing just doesn`t -- the story that is just very, very sad. And it`s actually the voice of Elmo, Kevin , we`re talking about. Not Elmo, himself.
Jeff, you were saying, though, to me during the break that you have to be absolutely sure just as I was holding Cecil`s hand to the fire that about, you know, you better be clear about this before you destroy somebody`s life. You also very sure that something has happened before you represent somebody.
HERMAN: Absolutely. This is serious business. You know, I don`t take these cases light. Before I file, I need have to have a very strong belief that what my client is telling me happened. So, I vet my cases and I revet the cases and do everything I can to be certain. But, of course, we`re not there.
HERMAN: So, we don`t have that kind of crystal ball, but it is serious business. And Cecil, he tells a very credible story. And so, we vetted it and, you know, it`s in every case.
PINSKY: Cecil, it`s our last minute together, what would you like to say in this closing minute?
SINGLETON: I`d like to say that I don`t need his $5 million. What I would like is my name back. What I would like is for people to know that I`ve been 100 percent honest and that this experience has not been ideal or easy for me or my family. I wouldn`t have done this if I didn`t think I was doing the right thing. So, as far as I`m concerned, he can take his $5 million as long as he would own up and take responsibility and acknowledged what happened.
PINSKY: Thank you, Cecil. Thank you to all my guests, Jose Baez, Jeff Herman, Dr. Gail Saltz, Breanna Saldivar. It`s been great coming from New York City here. And tomorrow, I will bring you that story we promised earlier of the mother who wrongfully -- who was wrongfully convicted in jail. It`s hard (ph) to involve with Cecil today to get that. I will get to that tomorrow.
She was jailed for the murder of her 13-year-old daughter, and then exonerated and then reunited with her husband and twins. Quite a story, we will get to that. But now, Nancy Grace begins.